--- Log opened Wed Jul 25 00:00:18 2012
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00:30 < kanzure> regarding xprize, i was apparently misinformed on the insurance scheme.
00:30 < kanzure> "The insurance policy still cost a couple million dollars, which they had to raise. And they didn't purchase the insurance policy until several years after the competition was launched."
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08:28 < delinquentme> http://www.meteor.com/screencast
08:28 < delinquentme> wat
08:30 < delinquentme> ok so its like added abstraction
08:30 < delinquentme> awesome
08:30 < delinquentme> but
08:30 < delinquentme> IDK why thats a big deal
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09:03 < delinquentme> mannnn
09:04 < delinquentme> BIO HACKER BOOT CAMP
09:04 < delinquentme> " PAY US MONEY "
09:12 < kanzure> it looks like just bench techniques
09:13 < kanzure> those are certainly important
09:13 < kanzure> but it would be nice if they also covered things like thermocycler construction
09:13 < kanzure> and spectrophotometer construction.
09:16 < kanzure> hmmm "I'm new entrant to the Open Science list. My name is Ethan Perlstein, I'm an evolutionary pharmacologist at Princeton, and my lab gives psych drugs to yeast."
09:17 < delinquentme> lolol
09:17 < delinquentme> wat
09:18 < delinquentme> psychology?
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09:25 < AdrianG> they are treating yeast schizophrenia
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09:47 < kanzure> nmz787: mac's trailer thing was something different
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09:55 < delinquentme> kanzure, trailer?
09:56 < kanzure> he got funding for his diybio-in-a-trailer project back in 2008
10:00 < delinquentme> oh so hes got a lab in a trailer?
10:08 < kanzure> he had
10:10 < delinquentme> O_o did he like sell it off?
10:11 < delinquentme> and wouldn't that be rough on all kinds of equipment?
10:30 < nmz787> yashgaroth: i ran the jetta on pure biodiesel in berkeley last summer, its harder to come by out here, but last week i filled up in a B5 station (5% biodiesel)... no conversion needed, in colder NY I'd need/want to add a fuel line pre-warmer (hot coil around fuel line) but that's about it
10:31 < yashgaroth> awesome
10:31 < nmz787> kanzure: did you watch the german guy's DIYbio documentary
10:31 < nmz787> ?
10:31 < kanzure> sascha's?
10:31 < nmz787> they had a DNA trailer in germany in that vid
10:31 < kanzure> no wait, sascha is the chicago person
10:31 < nmz787> yeah
10:31 < nmz787> oh
10:31 < kanzure> i watched a few minutes of it
10:31 < nmz787> i don't remember his name
10:32 < kanzure> didn't see a trailer.
10:32 < kanzure> fablab had a trailer for a while. they were calling it their mobile fablab.
10:34 < nmz787> from here: http://tequals0.wordpress.com/2012/06/24/diybio-fbi-outreach-conference-san-fransisco/
10:34 < nmz787> is this :http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1724278/
10:34 < nmz787> Sascha (you're right)
10:34 < nmz787> Karberg
10:35 < nmz787> the german thing was more of a bus though, it was sortof like a postal truck or UPS truck
10:35 < kanzure> oh there was also biobus
10:37 < nmz787> apparently Sascha was a Knight (Tom??) fellow http://web.mit.edu/knight-science/fellows/former/2008-09.html
10:38 < kanzure> haha that would be hilarious if tom knight already has fellowships named after him
10:40 < nmz787> emailed them to ask
10:57 < delinquentme> what is pushState
10:58 < kanzure> just a fancy way to manipulate history in a browser
11:00 < nmz787> is this too crazy for me to put on my wishlist? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824176177
11:00 < nmz787> when 24" goes for $200???
11:01 < nmz787> 30 bit color sounds pretty nice, but not sure I would ever use it, and not sure if my laptop's graphics card can even drive that much depth
11:01 < nmz787> the resolution for the size seems really nice though
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12:22 < nmz787> "The Knight Fellowships are named after James and John Knight, who built the Knight newspaper chain and the Knight Foundation for Journalism."
12:32 < delinquentme> kanzure, data migrations to add users?
12:32 < delinquentme> is that right?
12:32 < delinquentme> I've oly ever used migrations to modify schema
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12:37 < kanzure> delinquentme: uh i guess you might do that if you were migrating between databases
12:37 < delinquentme> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1562589/rails-create-default-root-user-through-migration-rake-task
12:37 < delinquentme> thanks ( currently doing coding for interview _
12:46 < kanzure> things be crazy over in china
12:46 < kanzure> http://www.madhouse.cn/en/pop/mad74.html
12:47 < kanzure> "Shanghai China - 11th April, 2012 - Madhouse, the largest and most intelligent mobile advertising network in China, today issues a statement about SmartMad ad display error caused by Guohead. Due to the special handling of Guohead, developers who uses Guohead Mediation Platform will have maximum 75% of the ads being displayed outside the mobile phone screen, which results in abnormally significantly drop of CTR and loss of developer's income."
12:47 < kanzure> "Since 5th December 2011, without Madhouse’s knowledge, Mobile in-app mediation platform Guohead made special handling to SmartMad SDK. In Guohead Android SDK v1.2.1 released on 5th December 2011, the ads would display outside the mobile phone screen up to twice for every three requests."
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12:56 < nmz787> who is guohead?
12:58 < nmz787> so that's a bug or it was intentional?
13:02 < kanzure> might have been intentional
13:03 < kanzure> to inflate ad view metrics.
13:03 < kanzure> but it's a very weird way to do it; why not just increase the number instead of making phones make requests to see ads
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13:20 < kanzure> obscurite: what's up?
13:25 < nmz787> kanzure: I guess I'm kind of lame, mixed up dates and showed up at genspace yesterday for a talk that was happening today... now I don't feel like commuting an hour there and hour back to go to the talk today
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13:28 < kanzure> haha
13:28 < kanzure> no man, the way to look at it is that THEY are a day late
13:29 < obscurite> kanzure: was wondering if there are any projects that have been shown to be usefull for DNA concentration measurement
13:29 < obscurite> kanzure: then i realized you mentioend spectrophotometers earlier
13:29 < kanzure> well, nmz787 made an open source spectrophotometer
13:29 < kanzure> so, i would start by bugging him
13:29 < obscurite> what's his real name? i may have seen it
13:29 < nmz787> nathan mccorkle
13:29 < obscurite> oh nathan
13:30 < kanzure> lord dr. mccorkle
13:30 < nmz787> openspectrometer.com
13:30 < nmz787> lol
13:30 < nmz787> :D
13:30 < nmz787> dark lord
13:30 < nmz787> no no no, wait, I don't wanna be taken down by the white side
13:30 < nmz787> whitesides lab
13:30 < kanzure> haha
13:31 < obscurite> nmz787: looks nice. can you make practicla measurements yet?
13:31 < obscurite> or I should say, what can you measure
13:31 < nmz787> obscurite: the hard part about spectrometers is getting everything aligned right.... or right enough that signal:noise isn't shit, and that you can standardize the output so you can trade results with others having the same/similar setup
13:32 < nmz787> i got the CCD working but not optics, then stopped because of school, then failed school because it wasn't as fun or fulfilling as the spectrometer work... then... well, here I am
13:33 < obscurite> nmz787: did you check out http://www.asdlib.org/onlineArticles/elabware/Scheeline_Kelly_Spectrophotometer/index.html
13:35 < obscurite> nmz787: I've been in and out of school for similar reasons btw.
13:35 < nmz787> i might have, but the image there is using a transmission grating, so its no bueno for DNA
13:35 < obscurite> nmz787: ahh, figured.
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13:37 < nmz787> i wanna know the prices for these http://sales.hamamatsu.com/en/products/solid-state-division/mini-spectrometers.php
13:38 < nmz787> the other thing for DNA is 260 and 280nm LEDs, but they're currently $100-200/piece
13:38 < nmz787> so still not 'cheap'
13:38 < obscurite> nmz787: ouch
13:40 < yashgaroth> can't you use a uv lamp with a prism? bear in mind I don't physics
13:41 < nmz787> yashgaroth: sure, a deuterium or xenon flashbulb would be fine, that's what the pros use... but with the prism you're back to aligning optics
13:46 < obscurite> nmz787: was looking at these too http://www.google.com/patents?id=F5nKAAAAEBAJ (do not look if you don't want to be infected by IP)
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13:49 < nmz787> i've taken apart a nanodrop before
13:49 < nmz787> it didnt have a filter wheel in it though, only a xenon flashbulb
13:51 < yashgaroth> you sure it wasn't just after the sample?
13:53 < nmz787> yeah, it was the xenon light source into a fiber, into the swing arm, through the droplet into the base, into a fiber, into a USB2000 Ocean Optics spectometer
13:53 < nmz787> it was one of the original nanodrops tho before thermofisher bought them
13:54 < nmz787> so maybe their higher up models use the selector for changing the light source
13:54 < nmz787> deuterium is a little flatter in the lower end than xenon... but can't remember if its worse in other areas
13:56 < nmz787> protein assays (bradford) i think happen in the visible, so maybe you'd want to use LEDs or a fluorescent source to save energy and heat... or to reduce usage on the UV source... UV can foul up some optics over time, so maybe that's why you'd want a selector
13:56 < obscurite> nmz787: i'm feeling intimiated by all this optics
13:56 < nmz787> or maybe the selector was for filtering out the source, in something like a fluorescence assay
13:57 < nmz787> obscurite: do you need a spectrometer?
13:57 < obscurite> nmz787: that diffraction grading project was about as advanced as i'm willing to get probably
13:57 < obscurite> nmz787: was just curious how far you could get with an easy diy project. have nanodrop at lab.
13:58 < obscurite> nmz787: how far do you think you have to go to finish your project, if you were to resume it or pass it on?
13:59 < nmz787> I got as far as identifying a concave holographic aberration-corrected grating as probably being the best for DIY UV spectrometers... its basically a concave mirror with lines on it so you 'reflect' the light from a slit onto a CCD
14:00 < nmz787> i wasn't sure how to build a cheap 3D printable mount for it
14:00 < obscurite> nmz787: why specifically would that cheap grating i linked be unsuitable? bad optics?
14:01 < nmz787> the classic (these days) czerny-turner design have multiple pieces to adjust, it's small but not ideal for DIY
14:02 < nmz787> I could be wrong but I think it would attenuate the UV since it's plastic
14:02 < nmz787> if you're on DIYbio, Simon Field and I have discussed this a lot on there
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14:04 < nmz787> so I don't know how much a transmission grating would attenuate the UV, it could be enough to kill the signal, or it could be minor... but pro setups don't use them... for what it
14:04 < nmz787> 's worth
14:04 < obscurite> nmz787: gotcha
14:06 < nmz787> obscurite: what do you do?
14:07 < obscurite> nmz787: I'm a student at the moment, so I learn for a living. :) Used to be a software guy, so that's my mindset, which doesn't always mesh with bio.
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14:08 < obscurite> nmz787: currently working on iGEM, some computational bio stuff, classes
14:12 < nmz787> cool, what geolocation are you near?
14:13 < obscurite> nmz787: based in NYC. in pittsburgh most of the summer for work.
14:14 < nmz787> dang, I'm in NYC (possibly for another month if gf gets a job elsewhere, or for the next 1-2 years)... from PGH as a kid
14:14 < nmz787> was just in pgh last week
14:14 < obscurite> ships passing in the night!
14:14 < Steel2> isn't carl in pgh?
14:15 < nmz787> lol
14:15 < nmz787> Steel2: sortof, about 25 miles east of there
14:17 < nmz787> obscurite: PGH is a really chill place, don't know if you're bored there compared to NYC... but its pretty sweet IMO, and I've been traveling for the past 7 years still in top 5 places
14:18 < nmz787> (though I hated it when I left at age 18)
14:18 < nmz787> I don't think I knew about hackerspaces back then, and I doubt any existed in PGH either
14:18 < obscurite> nmz787: i'm enjoying it. i'd probably be fine living here, though i like having an overwhelming number of people around because I like being part of communities. though, lately i've been wondering if local communities are overrated. ;)
14:18 < obscurite> I've been chatting with the hack pittsburgh group and may visit them
14:19 < obscurite> I just resigned from the hackerspace I founded last year in NYC, so i'm temporarily unenthused about them.
14:19 < nmz787> i felt like there wasn't much opportunity for me when I left... I think it is true that out west people are more willing to forego bachelors degree == you get a job that seems to predominate in today's culture
14:20 < nmz787> i went to hackpgh once, it was alright... I'm generally a shut-in though, so I prefer having my own tools, etc
14:20 < obscurite> nmz787: yeah, nyc has far more jobs for sure.
14:20 < obscurite> not a bad place to be a student/postdoc/faculty type
14:21 < nmz787> i don't know if i'm unique, or if I have the true american spirit... i.e. living in middle of nowhere frontier-ville
14:22 < nmz787> i used to just want a cabin where i could just live away from society
14:23 < obscurite> nmz787: i think it's good to have exposure to people, though breaks are good
14:23 < obscurite> nmz787: for scientists/researchers it's essential and i don't think internet is good enough.
14:23 < nmz787> yeah people are alright, but NYC isn't really the place for a shut-in type... too expensive!
14:23 < obscurite> nmz787: that's why i'm in school, so i can interface in person with as many smart people as i want
14:24 < obscurite> nmz787: it's not cheap, but i don't see what that has to do with personality
14:24 < obscurite> nmz787: unless you like to eat out 100% of the time
14:24 < nmz787> yeah we've talked about organizing internet seminars recently, and some folks are for it (kanzure) and others aren't so much (jules... who i don't think hangs out in this IRC room)
14:25 < obscurite> nmz787: oh, right, yeah. decent sized apartments are expensive, so if you're home a lot, not so great in that sense, though there are parts of NYC that are comparable to other smaller cities.
14:25 < nmz787> obscurite: well if I can be content with internet and my house, it'd be a lot cheaper elsewhere... NYC seems like the place to be /if/ you like going out
14:25 < nmz787> obscurite: I actually felt the same way about my university.... I called it my personal think tank
14:30 < kanzure> http://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/the-making-of-warcraft-part-1
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14:45 < nmz787> obscurite: make sure to visit mike and tony's gyro shop on 15th and carson in southside
14:45 < nmz787> best gyros in world that i've found
14:45 < nmz787> also the pretzel shop between 23rd and 24th streets on carson in southside
14:54 < nmz787> kanzure: how do I make this command a shortcut in bash?
14:54 < nmz787> kanzure: cclive "" --exec "ffmpeg -i '%f' '%f.mp3'"
14:54 < nmz787> kanzure: where the first "" needs to have a URL added
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14:55 < kanzure> nmz787: $1
14:56 < kanzure> $1 is the first argument to a script
14:56 < kanzure> so if you put that into a chmod +x'd file "super-cclive" somewhere on your $PATH then "super-cclive http://.." should work
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14:59 < kanzure> nmz7871: i typed out a reply.. http://gnusha.org/logs/2012-07-25.log
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15:02 < nmz7871> cool
15:04 < obscurite> nmz7871: back. i'm a vegan, so no gyro for me, but thank you for the pointer.
15:05 < nmz7871> ahh, well, the pretzel shop has the best pretzels i've ever had, lol
15:05 < nmz7871> do you eat milk products?
15:06 < obscurite> nmz7871: actually there's a place in town that serves vegan waffle icecream sundaes. that's my next stop.
15:06 < yashgaroth> wouldn't be a vegan if he did
15:06 < obscurite> nmz7871: nope. vegans don't consume animal byproducts
15:06 < obscurite> i only make exceptions for certain humans
15:06 < nmz7871> so that's anything that has nerves?
15:06 < obscurite> nmz7871: not sure if nerves is a good metric. maybe
15:06 < nmz7871> i.e. yeasts (animolecules) are OK to eat?
15:07 < obscurite> nmz7871: yeasts are OK
15:07 < obscurite> nmz7871: i guess anything you ingest without even eating is OK
15:07 < obscurite> nmz7871: yeast would be consumed whether we tried to or not
15:09 < nmz7871> hmm
15:09 < nmz7871> so why isn't having nerves the metric?
15:09 < nmz7871> what do vegans eat with nerves?
15:10 < nmz7871> all animals have nerves, right, and nothing but animals have nerves.. I think
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15:11 < obscurite> nmz7871: don't know enough biology to say for sure. i wouldn't eat sponges, I don't think.
15:12 < obscurite> nmz7871: don't think they have nerves...
15:12 < obscurite> nmz7871: mostly i'm all about voiding the multicellular creatures
15:12 < Sanky> what about mycetozoa?  they don't have nerves, but they can get through mazes and stuff
15:12 < nmz7871> first google link for
15:12 < obscurite> nmz7871: but i don't think most vegans make such fine distinctions. maybe go with "anything with a face"
15:12 < nmz7871> "sponge nerves" gives "Origin of Nerves Traced to Sponges"
15:12 < nmz7871> but yeah no nerveds
15:13 < nmz7871> "Sponges are the only multicellular animals without anervous system. They do not have any nerve cells or sensory cells"
15:13 < nmz7871> they also don't have faces
15:14 < nmz7871> but then milk doesn't have a face
15:14 < obscurite> nmz7871: byproduct of something with a face
15:14 < Sanky> animals which produce it do
15:14 < obscurite> Sanky: dunno
15:14 < nmz7871> maybe this is an off-the-deep-end question, but do you think babies should be vegan (not drinking mother's milk)
15:15 < yashgaroth> I think they have the mother's consent for that one
15:15 < obscurite> nmz7871: i consider human milk to be vegan
15:15 < nmz7871> they're at least supposed to drink it thanks to evolution, vs us drinking cows milk
15:15 < obscurite> nmz7871: at least, during the development period where it's useful
15:15 < nmz7871> sure
15:15 < Steel2> obscurite: would you eat vat grown meat?
15:16 < nmz7871> a 30 y/o asking on craigslist for mother's milk and claiming it was to satisfy his vegannes would be weird
15:16 < obscurite> Steel2: i've been avoiding having an opinion on that one for years now
15:16 -!- azonenberg [~azonenber@2001:470:888b:2:206:70ff:fe01:46] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:16 < Steel2> it's just protein chains :-/
15:16 < nmz7871> well Steel2 it would be cellularly similar as well
15:16 < nmz7871> maybe have some hormones
15:16 < Steel2> no cns
15:17 < obscurite> Steel2: there's the genetic link back to some animal who was bred for the process
15:17 < Sanky> once artificial meat becomes affordable I will probably refuse to eat animal meat
15:17 < yashgaroth> would macroscopic heterotrophs be a good definition of what you don't eat?
15:17 < Steel2> eating/supporting artificial meat is the only effective way to cut down animal based meat
15:17 < obscurite> Steel2: would that alone make me morally opposed? i still abstain
15:17 < Steel2> through helping their economy of scale
15:18 < obscurite> Steel2: i have no reason to believe it will ever be more resource efficient than farm meat. so far it's less.
15:18 < obscurite> Steel2: and both are far less efficient than plant based diets in terms of environmental/economic impact
15:18 < Steel2> you don't have to grow the extraneous parts, and you can go straight from mass/energy -> food
15:18 < obscurite> Steel2: but in terms of consume adoption, yes, it will win
15:18 < Steel2> eh, environmental/economic impact isn't something I take into consideration, to be fair
15:19 < obscurite> Steel2: it's still inherently in terms of physics a lot of energy compared to plants
15:19 < obscurite> Steel2: i believe
15:19 < Steel2> energy isn't something that will be scarce, if PR gets off the ground
15:19 < obscurite> let's not speculate on unlimited free energy :P
15:20 < obscurite> what's PR?
15:20 < yashgaroth> phusion reactors?
15:20 < Steel2> planetary resources
15:20 < Steel2> and I mean, energy is easy, just not politically viable
15:21 < obscurite> stupid humans. we'll be wrangling planets and still bitching about not having a steak.
15:21 < Steel2> what's wrong with that, if steak is more or less a tiny cost?
15:22 < Steel2> hedonism is good
15:22 < Steel2> and no plants/animals involved
15:22 < obscurite> Steel2: yeah, well, then please priotize sexbots over fake meat
15:22 < obscurite> that's my vote.
15:22 < Steel2> fake meat is a) more ethical b) more profitable and c) more plausible
15:23 < obscurite> not if the sexbots are made of fake meat...
15:23 < yashgaroth> ok this is getting a little weird
15:23 < Sanky> i was just going to say that
15:23 < Sanky> but continue
15:23 < Steel2> go to humanityplus magazine for sexbots >_>
15:25 < Sanky> obscurite: i realize you don't see the appeal in meat yourself, but wouldn't it be better (from a vegan standpoint) if other (most) people started eating artificial meat?
15:25 < obscurite> Sanky: yes, less suffering is quantitatively more ethical
15:25 < obscurite> Sanky: but philosophically it's still a gray area
15:25 < obscurite> i'd give it the thumbs up if it would put factory farms out of business
15:26 < obscurite> because they are the worst part of humanity
15:26 < Sanky> let's hope
15:26 < Steel2> mmm, I wouldn't call those the worst part of humanity
15:26 < obscurite> Steel2: i had a moment of passion. point taken.
15:29 < obscurite> love it when my teammates sent me a picture of a gel on a 45 degree angle with the ladder upside down
15:29 < obscurite> (molecular bio gripes)
15:32 < strangewarp> If vat-meat causes any plurality of factory-farm owners to switch over to vat-meat, even if they still end up killing a few animals to harvest cells, then it will reduce both pollution and animal suffering
15:33 < strangewarp> Reducing suffering in both humans and animals is important, if you have ny estimation that you might be in either a simulation or a Big Universe, because the superrational interpretation of the prisoner's dilemma implies that the way you are willing to treat animals might be isomorphic to how superintelligences would be willing to treat /you/
15:33 < strangewarp> ny=any
15:35 < obscurite> strangewarp: there are still deep philosphical/cultural/psychological questions about the idea of meat in general
15:35 < strangewarp> .. actually it doesn't even require simulism or Big Universe now that I think about it; the ethics of past people have some effect on the ethics of future people
15:35 < obscurite> strangewarp: lab grown meat won't satisfy those
15:36 < obscurite> strangewarp: but yes, it will reduce suffering immensely
15:36 < strangewarp> It's imperfect, certainly
15:36 < strangewarp> but, yeah
15:37 < Steel2> strangewarp, finish your tools >_>
15:37 < obscurite> strangewarp: and, i love your description of the problem in temrms of enlightened self interest
15:38 < nmz7871> i see the advantage of animals is that they eat grass, which grows in the sun
15:38 < strangewarp> Steel2: The editor is almost done, and snazzy. The music-sequencer is in first-draft form. Lemme send you an in-progress pic...
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15:38 < nmz7871> if you could just cut out the CNS stuff and the limbs, it seems like the best way efficiency wise and in cheapness to distribute and run/operate
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15:39 < nmz7871> CNS and PNS
15:39 < strangewarp> obscurite: With enough superrational prisoner's dilemma, rational self-interest and compassion for others tend to converge
15:39 < Steel2> nmz: or cover that same area with solar panels?
15:39 < nmz7871> or algae/cyanobacteria?
15:39 < Steel2> solar panels could be used for a multiplicity of purposes
15:39 < Steel2> granted, turning all farmland into solar would lead to an albedo increase...
15:40 < Steel2> eh, just build a ton of nuclear reactors and space solar
15:40 < nmz7871> I guess I was saying animals parts as in immune system and digestive tract
15:40 < nmz7871> reproduction, etc
15:40 < Steel2> why not just...the muscle?
15:40 < Steel2> in perpetuity?
15:40 < Steel2> in a factory?
15:41 < obscurite> nmz7871: the transformation of plant -> animal is not an efficient process. much better if you can utilize the plants directly.
15:41 < nmz7871> wouldn't you need chems to keep it sterile in such big cultures?
15:41 < obscurite> nmz7871: in areas where plant growth is limited, and only grasses can grow, animals make more sense
15:41 < nmz7871> and defined/rich media to feed the muscle, vs digestive system+immune system
15:42 < Steel2> much better if you can utilize animals directly
15:42 < strangewarp> nmz7871: The problem of keeping it sterile is already solved, I think; you just need artificial blood vessels to keep the interior from rotting, and they're already 3D-printing artificial blood vessels for that, I think
15:42 < Steel2> :D
15:42 < obscurite> Steel2: throw in some A1 and you get free energy right?
15:42 < Steel2> not quite :P
15:43 < Steel2> man, I wish I could have all my veggies taste and look and feel like meat
15:43 < obscurite> Steel2: second best approach is to make every vegetable into tempura
15:43 < strangewarp> tempura <3
15:46 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-0-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:49 < yashgaroth> if you can make high-quality meat in vitro, immune/digestive systems wouldn't be a stretch...or you could just irradiate the feedstock
15:49 < yashgaroth> or just make like, really ridiculously stupid cows
15:50 < Sanky> just remove any pain reception
15:50 < eudoxia> cows have lots of non-meaty parts though
15:51 < yashgaroth> removing the sensation of "I'm stuck in this me-sized cage for my entire life" would be more difficult
15:51 < Sanky> remove free will
15:51 < Sanky> maybe replace the brain with a computer and make wire it up to the meaty parts
15:51 < Sanky> then you won't have to worry about that stuff
15:52 < obscurite> I almost said "use republicans". Good thing I exercised restraint.
15:52 < Sanky> s/make//
15:52 < yashgaroth> now that sounds expensive
15:52 < yashgaroth> the computer thing, not republicans
15:58 -!- Sanky [~SankyZNC@unaffiliated/sanky] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:14 < nmz7871> computer vs bio is a lot more expensive IMO.... if you could store the egg/stem cell well... has anyone looked into sporifying animal cells?
16:15 < obscurite> * so lost *
16:15 < yashgaroth> ehh they'll last indefinitely in LN2
16:15 < nmz7871> yashgaroth: I think you'd remove that stuff early on during development, and possibly look for genes to turn off to silence it in the germ line
16:16 < obscurite> I think that growing cows without intelligence is just as bad as growing humans without intelligence. The stuff of nightmares.
16:16 < yashgaroth> it'd be tough to find the right combination where they'd still be smart enough to eat, unless you go full feed-tube
16:17 < nmz7871> feed tube could still be grass slurry right?
16:17 < nmz7871> as long as you didnt overfill the stomach?
16:17 < yashgaroth> sure why not, their gut bacteria don't care
16:17 < nmz7871> maybe ever continuous process then?
16:18 < nmz7871> it would be interesting to see how long the meat would keep regenerating if you just surgically removed cuts...
16:18 < obscurite> i'd prefer to use humans before I use animals
16:19 < yashgaroth> reminds me of that D&D scenario where you keep a cow around for food and just cast a healing spell on it after
16:19 < obscurite> at least we'd be desecrating our own form
16:19 < Steel2> I find the word desecrate to be meaningless :P
16:19 < obscurite> I use the word artistically.
16:20 < strangewarp> Growing humans and cows without brains, for food, isn't ethically any different from vat-meat... but I have a feeling most people would prefer vat-meat, really
16:21 < Steel2> strangewarp: vat meat is better...no need to grow the bones etc.
16:21 < eudoxia> vat meat doesn't have all the extra stuff, bones et cetera.
16:21 -!- jmil [~jmil@c-69-249-188-134.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:21 < eudoxia> bonemind
16:21 < strangewarp> BOOONE STOOOORM
16:21 < obscurite> strangewarp: it *is* ethically different. respect for the form of the hull is a practical concern.
16:21  * strangewarp cough
16:21 < obscurite> strangewarp: we don't even yet know the mass psychological effects of the concept of meat
16:21 < strangewarp> Particular body shapes have no essence that must be respected, tha I can tell
16:22 < strangewarp> It's just uncomfortable because it would look like us, maybe
16:22 < obscurite> symbols are important
16:22 < obscurite> our brains care about them
16:22 < strangewarp> politically, diplomatically, sure
16:22 < strangewarp> objectively, no
16:22 < nmz7871> Steel2: eudoxia: bones are where the immune system is born
16:22 < obscurite> psychology matters here
16:22 < Steel2> vat meat is no different than tofu from a symbolic perspective
16:22 < Steel2> well, you can cut it into whatever shapes
16:22 < strangewarp> obscurite: I'm agreeing with you I think? Just for slightly different reasons
16:23 < nmz7871> why buy a vat when it will just develop on its own from the single cell progenitor?
16:23 < obscurite> i suspect the psychological impact of cell cultures vs carving meat from a body-like hull is different
16:23 < Steel2> it's all steak shaped on your plate
16:23 < Steel2> for the end consumer
16:23 < eudoxia> nmz7871: is the immune system necessary when you're growing it in a sterile container?
16:23 < eudoxia> not saying it isn't, just asking
16:24 < obscurite> Steel2: ecept that it's not and that dissonance has mass psychological effects, i believe.
16:24 < nmz7871> well biofilms concern me
16:24 < Steel2> ehhhh, we have so much food that is not actually what it looks like these days
16:24 < Steel2> I honestly don't think end consumers will care
16:24 < Steel2> I think you underestimate humanity's capability to eat whatever is tasty
16:24 < obscurite> Steel2: i do NOT underestimate your ability to do so
16:24 < nmz7871> they like growing on plastics, and viruses could also attack vat meat... though I guess you could do hourly PCR panel checks for that stuff
16:25 < Steel2> no, but I mean
16:25 < yashgaroth> we've been able to keep fed vats sterile for a while now
16:25 < nmz7871> yeah I don't my version would look any different to the consumer, neither would vat meat
16:25 < obscurite> i'm not talking about consumer adoption of a product. i'm talking about the same kind of subtle mass psychological effects that occur from an emphasis on say, violence in media
16:26 < eudoxia> so you would need some kind of biocompatible container to prevent the tissue from attaching to the vat?
16:26 < strangewarp> Steel2: I imagine what obscurite is getting at is, stupid political rhetoric would make people go "fuck no" to brainless-grown humans, "blurgh" to brainless-grown cow meat and vat-grown human meat, but "hey whatever" to vat-grown cow meat
16:26 < Steel2> obscurite, other than make us less desensitized to killing animals cuz we have alternaties?
16:26 < Steel2> *alternatives
16:26 < obscurite> strangewarp: i'd agree with that
16:26 < Steel2> I'm really not sure what you're getting at
16:26 < Steel2> what sort of consequences do you see from vat-grown meat
16:27 < obscurite> Steel2: yes, the relationship to our food source I believe has a much greater psychological importance than we believe
16:27 < obscurite> Steel2: but certainly an importance greater than zero
16:27 < Steel2> [Citation Needed]
16:27 < obscurite> Steel2: i did acknowledge it's not well understood
16:27 < Steel2> also, once again, why do you think it will be a negative/difficult psychological effect instead of a positive one?
16:28 < eudoxia> what strangewarp said
16:29 < obscurite> Steel2: i suppose it depends on your value scale. i think dominating behavior is overrated.
16:29 < eudoxia> blurgh blurgh guttural sounds
16:29 < Steel2> I mean
16:29 < Steel2> we will be introducing less animals in the world to kill them
16:29 < Steel2> woo
16:30 < nmz7871> i think the avg farmer would rather have something that was a little less like a biolab...
16:30 < Steel2> also, I think we differ very much on dominating behavior
16:30 < obscurite> Steel2: i'm not against domination when it's pleasurable between consenting people, but interspecies not so much
16:30 < Steel2> this would reduce that
16:30 < nmz7871> if they had to have birthing incubators but then it was pretty self-contained otherwise... i think that'd be alright
16:30 < Steel2> nmz: the average farmer is a corporation.
16:31 < nmz7871> bio is a machine, so why are we scared to acknowledge that
16:31 < eudoxia> you can't dominate a slab of meat yo
16:31 < obscurite> nmz7871: because we don't want to be just machines
16:32 < nmz7871> i accept it
16:32 < nmz7871> it makes sense
16:32 < Steel2> I want to be just a machine
16:32 < Steel2> seriously though
16:32 < Steel2> vast majority of our food comes from massive conglomerates
16:32 < Steel2> they'll have no issues with vat grown if it turns them a profit via economy of scale
16:33 < nmz7871> god and afterlife and mythos and hoohaa like that confused the hell outta me growing up
16:33 < Steel2> also less chance of disease (mad cow, etc.)
16:33 < obscurite> Steel2: of course
16:33 < Steel2> it turns food production into literally factory farming
16:33 < Steel2> as in, a facility somewhere with large machinery
16:33 < Steel2> \o/
16:34 < obscurite> eudoxia: having a slab of meat is domination, if that meat came from an unwilling victim
16:34 < Steel2> 'came from'
16:34 < Steel2> we already have the dna for all these things
16:34 < obscurite> eudoxia: but if it's lab grown... maybe not
16:34 < nmz7871> I think the main thing is that we want to improve the cleanlieness and efficiency overall
16:34 < nmz7871> so reducing emissions, etc
16:34 < eudoxia> there's no victim, unless scraping a few cells from an unwilling cow is domination
16:35 < nmz7871> I think a lot of that might be solved if they didn't have legs
16:35 < jrayhawk> factory meat already has a pathological lipid and micronutrient profile, i don't think removing organs is going to help the situation any
16:35 < obscurite> eudoxia: right, maybe no victim... just philosophical conundrums
16:35 < eudoxia> the cow doesn't get recognition or property rights but that's just fine because they're pretty dumb
16:35 < obscurite> eudoxia: intelligence of non-humans has no decent measurement technique, so, premature
16:36 < eudoxia> I can concede that
16:36 < nmz7871> jrayhawk: couldn't you grass-feed leg/CNS-less cows?
16:36 < eudoxia> then again, how many things do we do every second that are against other "maybe conscious" lifeforms
16:37 < obscurite> eudoxia: I'm not convinced intelligence is the most valuable biological trait
16:37 < obscurite> eudoxia: I think the celebration of intelligence above other aspects is highly self-congratulatory
16:37 < Steel2> why bother growing the rest of the cow you won't eat, nmz
16:37 < jrayhawk> I'm sorta expecting hormone profiles to be affected by the central nervous system, too, but that'd actually be interesting to explore
16:38 < eudoxia> obscurite: that's an interesting point
16:38 < obscurite> eudoxia: on rational scales of ingelligence, we don't even win sometimes
16:38 < eudoxia> so, how do we treat other forms of life without an objective measurement scale of intelligence or worth in general?
16:38 < eudoxia> what is 'worth'?
16:38 < eudoxia> oh god
16:38 < obscurite> eudoxia: we use our ability to dominate them as a scale.
16:38 < obscurite> eudoxia: that's about it
16:39 < obscurite> house pets: A OK. no eat. farm animals. bah. eat em.
16:39 < Steel2> ehhh, I might try dog/cat
16:39 < obscurite> Steel2: i'm shocked :P
16:40 < Steel2> Anyway, I'm a nihilist
16:40 < Steel2> well, sort of
16:40 < obscurite> wait, were you in the big lebowski
16:41 < Steel2> no >_>
16:42 < jrayhawk> nihilism is a belief in the supremecy of action over reason
16:42 < jrayhawk> are you sure you are a nihilist
16:42 < nmz7871> Steel2: grow the rest of the cow just because it's cheap to setup and maintenance is essentially the same as veal
16:42 < Steel2> long term economy of scale, don't think it is
16:43 < Steel2> jrayhawk: nihilism is the belief in lack of meaning
16:43 < nmz7871> hmm, well, it could be the hybrid -> electric approach then...
16:43 < jrayhawk> No, that's post-modernism
16:43 < Steel2> rather, I'm an existential/moral nihilist
16:44 < jrayhawk> or dadaism, or a couple other things in the field of irrationalism
16:44 < Steel2> not an epistemelogical nihilist
16:44 < jrayhawk> nihilism is fairly specific
16:44 < Steel2> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism#Existential_nihilism
16:44 < Steel2> ignore the 'without change' part
16:44 < eudoxia> i think Steel is right though
16:44 < eudoxia> he sees there's no universal scale for a subjective thing like "ethics" and "morals" and sets his own
16:45 < Steel2> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism#Moral_nihilism (I believe morals are subjective, but you can make them universal subjectively)
16:45  * obscurite eats everyone in the channel, just in case they were planning to eat him first
16:45 < nmz7871> i figure life evolved so it's really just complex energy patterns.... it is what it is thanks to physics which is the same physics everywhere... so in respect to our immediate space neighborhood life is pretty cool
16:45 -!- jmil [~jmil@c-69-249-188-134.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:45 < eudoxia> well of course, morals can be objective but under a subjective set of axioms, ie "what is good" etc.
16:45 < nmz7871> but meaning i think is limited to a self-perpetuating chain of patterns
16:46 < Steel2> ahahaha, I bounced a grenade off a dead body in hard reset >_>
16:46 < obscurite> (so, you see, ethics is biologically based, going back to the discussion of enlightened/rational self interest)
16:52 < strangewarp> Meh, ethics can be objective, but in your analysis you have to account for the set of all possible ethical situations, of which our knowledge is incomplete. Thus we have to rely on estimates instead...
16:52 < obscurite> strangewarp: there are probably many more poits in the "ethics state space" than we could ever evaluate/simulate
16:53 < strangewarp> uh huh. ;)
16:53 < eudoxia> ethics state space
16:53 < eudoxia> transhumanism is so fun
16:53 < Steel2> dennett covers ethical statespace recently iirc
16:53 < obscurite> strangewarp: but we have to at least admit that ethics emerge from biological imperitive (what behavior with those linked genes will propagate)
16:54 -!- jmil [~jmil@c-69-249-188-134.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:55 < strangewarp> But that influences.. personal interpretations of ethics? As opposed to attempts of unbiased weighting of all of ethical state-space.
16:55 < obscurite> strangewarp: without biology there is no ethics and ethics are determined i would argue by the current biological snapshot for the species
16:56 < obscurite> strangewarp: morals are of course another story right? ;)
16:57 < Steel2> ...same difference?
16:57 < obscurite> Steel2: i don't think anyone thinks they're the same thing :)
16:57 < obscurite> Steel2: oh, sarcasm
16:57 < Steel2> I, uh, have an issue differentiating when you define them harshly enough
16:57 < obscurite> or not
16:58 < Steel2> how do you define them to be different?
16:58 < obscurite> morals have cultural legacy that doesn't track biology and can totally depart from biology
16:58 < Steel2> they both have such hazy definitions
16:58 < obscurite> ethics are derived from need
16:58 < strangewarp> Hmmmm... Without biology there are no creatures to act upon ideas of ethics, but that doesn't mean ethics are determined by biology. A person's actions upon the construct of ethics are determined by every part of a person and their environment..
16:58 < Steel2> morals and ethics are a set of relational principles between yourself, your environment, and others in your environment.
16:59 < Steel2> two words for the same thing, not categorizably different
16:59 < obscurite> Steel2: tell that to people who make careers of one or the other ;)
16:59 < obscurite> but not both
16:59 < strangewarp> Steel2: Hmmm.. I provisionally agree
16:59 < Steel2> I'll tell them they're using hazily defined terms.
17:00 < Steel2> internet encyclopedia of ethics defines it as moral philosophy
17:00 < obscurite> another way to put it even more simply -- morals are tied to a belief system that is primarily cultural, while ethics are supposedly objective, though in practice, are often affected/infected by morals.
17:01 < Steel2> yeah, I'm not seeing a differentiation here, except in perhaps your own personal choice of definition
17:01 < obscurite> then again, I have exposure to formal philosophy which emphasizes the logical nature of ethics
17:01 < Steel2> if you take the set of all meanings of the word 'ethics' for which it's commonly used, and do the same for 'morals', they pretty much overlap
17:02 < obscurite> philosophy does not treat ethics like morality
17:02 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:02 < Steel2> I just cited the IEP
17:03 < obscurite> I'm just saying, in the philosophy papers, there is a clear distinction
17:03  * yashgaroth pulls the philosophy alert lever
17:03 < obscurite> in the vernacular, sure, it's fuzzy
17:03 < obscurite> dude, trans/posthumanism is philosophy until people start living forever.
17:03 < nmz7871> obscurite: http://www.malcom.co.jp/eng/product/es-2.html
17:04 < obscurite> the lever is permanently pulled
17:04 < Steel2> philosophy is theoretically banned in this channel
17:04 < eudoxia> life extension is only a small part of the transhumanist 'project'
17:04 < Steel2> we're supposed to focus on the science
17:04 < eudoxia> some forms of enhancement are available now
17:04 < obscurite> eudoxia: just picked longevity as an example
17:04 < obscurite> eudoxia: i get emails about them all the time
17:05 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ
17:05 < yashgaroth> heh
17:05 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o yashgaroth] by kanzure
17:05 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure
17:05 < Steel2> I had a czech dude email me asking for blueprints
17:05 < Steel2> through my website
17:06 < obscurite> nmz7871: nice. prices?
17:06 < nmz7871> obscurite: no idea, they don't distribute in U.S. and ever replied to my emails
17:06 < obscurite> nmz7871: good sign...
17:06 < eudoxia> all i'm saying is some forms of enhancement are outside the real of philosophy already
17:07 < obscurite> eudoxia: nothing is outside the realm of philosophy, nor should it be
17:07 < nmz7871> there's this, which if cheap enough could be modified for a microdrop sample pedestal
17:07 < obscurite> eudoxia: but point taken
17:07 < nmz7871> http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/492141883/ON_SALE_Single_Beam_Grating_UV.html
17:07 < Steel2> be careful with alibaba
17:08 < strangewarp> philosophy about things that already exist deals with how they should be used. philosophy about everything else is more speculative. shrug
17:08  * strangewarp infinite shrug
17:08  * strangewarp goes back to codin'
17:09 < obscurite> nmz7871: just FYI, I do have access to a Nanodrop device when I need it. was more just interested in DIY possbilities for cheap/reaosnable time sink.
17:09  * strangewarp or possibly readin' because bluuurgh codin'
17:24 < nmz7871> bbl
17:24 -!- nmz7871 [~Nathan@107.55.171.21] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:24 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-0-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:26 -!- Steel2 [ad42e490@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.66.228.144] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
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17:31 < pasky> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1089782
17:41 < kanzure> pasky: what is it?
17:42 < kanzure> ah a good ol trolling.
17:46 < kanzure> "lib果合网站使用说明文_v1_2_2.a" what have i got myself into..
17:54 < obscurite> good lord. James Holmes is being billed as the first federally funded (NIH research grant) massacre
18:16 < AdrianG> nice
18:16 < AdrianG> finally somebody put NIH money to good use
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18:52 < strangewarp> ...... ... what.. what?
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19:19 < nmz787> is daniel packer in here?
19:20 <@yashgaroth> you were talking with him earlier
19:21 < nmz787> whats his name here?
19:22 <@yashgaroth> it starts with an o
19:22 <@yashgaroth> and ends with an bscurite
19:23 < nmz787> cool
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19:45 < jrayhawk> re: evolution: somebody should've told the original poster he should switch operating systems on account of all the daemons that are resident on his computer
20:05 < nmz787> jrayhawk: who?
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20:18 < kanzure> nmz787: he was commenting on the link that pasky pasted
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20:27 < nmz787> kanzure: pasky?
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20:31 < kanzure> nmz787: http://gnusha.org/logs/2012-07-25.log
20:32 < nmz787> i tried there
20:36 < kanzure> nmz787: 17:31 < pasky> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1089782
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20:41 < nmz787> did gnusha get netsplit/
20:41 < nmz787> ?
20:43 < nmz787> "But like the previous poster said, we got other things to worry about (~5 billion souls on their way to hell)."
20:44 < jrayhawk> Huh, I didn't realize the judgement of souls fell on that guy.
20:44 < delinquentme> FED bill passed
20:44 < delinquentme> fed bill passed
20:44 < jrayhawk> fed bill passed?
20:44 < nmz787> oh weird, I guess I was hitting ctrl-f too fast before the log loaded fully
20:44 < delinquentme> OH did i mention the largest body of money ownership is now going to be held accountable for its actions?
20:45 < nmz787> wtf is fed?
20:45 < delinquentme> THE fed
20:45 < delinquentme> sorry
20:45 < nmz787> THE?
20:45 < delinquentme> " The Federal Reserve"
20:45 < delinquentme> @_@_@_@_@_@_@_@@_
20:45 < delinquentme> @_@
20:45 < delinquentme> @
20:45 < delinquentme> ( if you coudn't tell that was a rage comic where they zoom in on the eye )
20:45 < jrayhawk> hee
20:45 < delinquentme> yeah. dude its fucking HUGE.
20:47 < jrayhawk> huge how
20:47 < nmz787> jrayhawk: what was that weird named protein/enzyme you were telling me about
20:47 < nmz787> zapatawazoole
20:47 < nmz787> j/k
20:48 < jrayhawk> Possibly gliadin?
20:49 < jrayhawk> "CXCR3" and "zonulin" are the important things to look for
20:49 < nmz787> i think it had a z or k in it
20:50 < jrayhawk> gliadin is part of a larger family called prolamines which seem to have similar, less well studied activity
20:52 < nmz787> delinquentme: find a way to efficiently map and display (and connect under the hood to SNPs and gene refs, protein function, family(s), 3D data, etc) the pathway that jrayhawk is talking about
20:52 < nmz787> then backload the rest of the PDB and entrez
20:53 < nmz787> and voila you have an interactome map
20:53 < nmz787> add some search features and protein docking stuff into the UI
20:53 < delinquentme> jrayhawk, Did you know that the US doesnt own its currency?
20:54 < delinquentme> Your dollar bills are actually on loan
20:54 < delinquentme> a loan that " THE UNITED STATES "
20:54 < delinquentme> pays interest on
20:54 < delinquentme> Interest TO the federal reserve
20:54 < delinquentme> which up until today
20:54 < delinquentme> Acted entirely autonomously... UNCHECKEd
20:55 < jrayhawk> Uh, the audit thing only passed the house, dude.
20:56 < jrayhawk> There's a whole 'nother half of congress.
20:58 < jrayhawk> Also, of our public debt, the Federal Reserve owns slightly less than half.
20:59 < jrayhawk> And, for the record, I support central banking.
20:59 < nmz787> I wish this country were run by buddhists
20:59 < kanzure> wtf is going on in here
21:00 < nmz787> we're all nuts
21:00 < strangewarp> second time in a row I've looked at this room and went "whut"
21:00 < strangewarp> come on H+, pull yourselves together
21:01 < kanzure> yashgaroth: you're not doing your duty
21:01 < kanzure> you were supposed to ban everyone
21:01 < nmz787> :O
21:01 < kanzure> one day hplusroadmap will be an exclusive group of zero again
21:02 < nmz787> at least /something/ is going on
21:03 <@yashgaroth> ehhh
21:03 < jrayhawk> well, #hplusroadmap is empty
21:03 <@yashgaroth> soooo the new futurama ep touches on transhumanism sort of
21:04 < nmz787> oOo which one?
21:04 <@yashgaroth> the one that aired tonight
21:04 < jrayhawk> transhumanism is talking heads in jars
21:04 <@yashgaroth> this one has hermes gradually turn into a robot
21:05 < kanzure> there are new episodes?
21:06 <@yashgaroth> season 7 brah
21:06 < jrayhawk> it isn't even turning out to be a complete disaster, unlike every other belated cartoon renewall
21:07 < delinquentme> jrayhawk, absolutely
21:07 < delinquentme> I do too
21:07 < delinquentme> BUT
21:07 < delinquentme> Who runs the fed
21:08 < delinquentme> The 10 something of the heads of the largest financial institutions in the US
21:09 < jrayhawk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Board_of_Governors
21:09 < jrayhawk> are you angry about the long terms?
21:10 < delinquentme> jrayhawk, fox guarding the hen house
21:10 < delinquentme> Oh and the hen is the largest, most powerful economy on earth
21:11 < delinquentme> if you've got 2 hours and want to get really angry
21:11 < delinquentme> you should watch aeitgeist
21:11 < delinquentme> zeitgeist
21:11 < delinquentme> it explains it better than I can
21:11 < jrayhawk> Yeah, so far you've polemicly mischaracterized basically everything.
21:12 < nmz787> delinquentme: i see it this way, it's not my field because it's not as interesting as science and lasers (pyew pyew)
21:12 < nmz787> delinquentme: so if it's not my field, why bother... it's all crazy and unlogical
21:12 < delinquentme> nmz787 can I say something unchecked without making you mad?
21:13 < nmz787> delinquentme: i'm not mad at all!
21:13 < nmz787> :D
21:13 < delinquentme> bc i realllly like you hahah but its also something really near and dear to me
21:13 < nmz787> politics?
21:13 < delinquentme> Oh well I havnt said it yet :D
21:13 < delinquentme> here:
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21:13 < delinquentme> " Spoken like a true academia trained mind "
21:13 < delinquentme> reductionist approached dont work!
21:14 < delinquentme> isnt science teaching that?
21:14 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i don't think he even understood that
21:14 < nmz787> delinquentme: huh?
21:14 < kanzure> delinquentme: you sure do cause a lot of fuss in here about nothing
21:14 < delinquentme> jrayhawk, go
21:14 < delinquentme> talk
21:14 < delinquentme> ....
21:15  * delinquentme holds gun to head
21:15  * delinquentme pulls trigger
21:15 < delinquentme> WTF
21:15 < kanzure> i don't negotiate with hostage takers
21:15 < jrayhawk> haha
21:15 < strangewarp> I heard Zeitgeist unites impotent leftist angst with vacuous mystical spiritual empowerment narratives
21:15 < strangewarp> yes?
21:15 < delinquentme> strangewarp, zeitgeist
21:15 < delinquentme> thats all you got
21:16 < delinquentme> jrayhawk, talk ? speak! make assertions
21:16 < jrayhawk> man, that sounds better than What The Bleep Do We Know and The Secret combined!
21:16 < delinquentme> nmz787, to say " its illogical " Ok sure.. its illogical while there are people out there who are scraping off more cash in a month than your entire lineage has made adjusted for inflation
21:17 < delinquentme> .
21:17 < kanzure> how is that illogical? i thought it's a well known fact?
21:17 < delinquentme> I was trying to say you can call it silly names
21:18 < delinquentme> but theres HUGE HUGE HUGE cash at play here
21:18 < delinquentme> and were all like
21:18 < delinquentme> OMG JERSEY SHORE
21:18 < delinquentme> no fuck that
21:18 < delinquentme> this is real shit
21:18 < delinquentme> jrayhawk, I still havn't heard anything that I"m supposed to respond to here
21:18 < delinquentme> you too strangewarp
21:19 < nmz787> well i mean the way the media overdramatizes things it seems just like a waste of time to lull people into wasting time
21:19 < kanzure> delinquentme: i don't think anyone in here watches jersey shore
21:19 < kanzure> i don't know what you're talking about.
21:19 < kanzure> go back to reddit
21:19 < nmz787> if you're not /in/ politics how can you change it?
21:19 < strangewarp> You seem so enthusiastic over an immovable object's potential momentum that I think you will end up torturing yourself over it
21:19 < delinquentme> nmz787, so thats the thing
21:19 < delinquentme> you dont want to be in politics
21:19 < delinquentme> you want to be in money
21:19 < delinquentme> HUGE fucking moeny
21:19 < delinquentme> money hahah
21:19 < nmz787> most of us are /in/ science or computers or whatever... so we can get shit done in those fields
21:20 < delinquentme> politics changes stupid piddly shit like what gets taught in schools
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21:20 < delinquentme> kanzure, dont patronize me because you're above your head
21:20 < kanzure> what?
21:20 < delinquentme> I love you but seriously dont pull that shit on me
21:20 < kanzure> i'm above what now?
21:20 < nmz787> well after my experience with school it's not my first line of education for any offspring I may have
21:20 < delinquentme> you're *in* above your head on this topic
21:21 < kanzure> all i see is you ranting about jersey shore and the federal reserve
21:21 < kanzure> and zeitgeist
21:21 < delinquentme> the money supply
21:21 < delinquentme> a private
21:21 < nmz787> kanzure: dude, you ARE above your own head... out of body experience... i believe man has mated with machine
21:21 < delinquentme> unchecked company owns the fiat currency that everyone works for
21:22 < delinquentme> 2045 project?
21:22 < kanzure> delinquentme: why do you need to talk about this in here
21:22 < strangewarp> zeitgeist was developed as a platform to make money off young liberals who want to feel like revolutionaries without touching the ground
21:22 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-bbb DrJackParsons!*@* gl00m!*@* JackParsons!*@*] by yashgaroth
21:22 < nmz787> prepare for a world of pokemon games taking over every last electronic display on earth
21:22 < delinquentme> kanzure, money.
21:22 < delinquentme> governance
21:22 < delinquentme> *throws up hands*
21:22 < delinquentme> nm
21:22 < nmz787> who wants money?
21:22 < jrayhawk> delinquentme: I'm not good enough with the psychology of moral outrage to help you. The Federal Reserve board is structured like the supreme court, and for the same reason. This is not a conspiracy.
21:23 < jrayhawk> It is politically infeasible to fully centralize banking. The Federal Reserve is a tradeoff.
21:23 < nmz787> I want a fast car and a tricked out off-road pickup truck and a helicopter and a speed catamaran and a private island and a sweet ass microfluidics and tricked out laptops
21:23 < delinquentme> ...
21:23 < delinquentme> for christ fucking sakes
21:23 < delinquentme> lets put the sillyness aside ok?
21:23 < delinquentme> ok.
21:23 < delinquentme> No its not a stinking "conspiracy"
21:23 < delinquentme> but its a bunch of smart people in power
21:23 < nmz787> I don't think anyone in here is "out for money"
21:24 < delinquentme> who have tinkered with what exists *JUST ENOUGH*
21:24 < delinquentme> to give themselves HUGE advantages
21:24 < kanzure> nmz787: there is nothing wrong with earning money.
21:24 < delinquentme> ALSO consider that people dont like direct control
21:24 < delinquentme> If you were the most powerful person on earth and wanted to keep it that way
21:24 < delinquentme> you want something subversive no?
21:24 < delinquentme> you want it quiet
21:24 < delinquentme> hidden
21:24 < kanzure> nmz787: except inasmuch that it signals to others that you might agree that money is a good idea
21:25 < nmz787> I do think /most/ people are kinda dumb, whether that's the genetic downfall of random mating or its that training/education is just sucky/inefficient.... or its all conspiracy for the rich to keep being rich.... i don't know
21:25 < delinquentme> nmz787, like its no about cash per se ... but
21:25 < delinquentme> So here:
21:26 < delinquentme> Can we agree that the largest banking corps
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21:26 < delinquentme> control alot
21:26 < delinquentme> they're paying for lobbyists
21:26 < delinquentme> they're paying off representatives
21:26 < delinquentme> they're paying to fund presidential campaigns
21:26 < delinquentme> money talks ja?
21:27 < delinquentme> Sure vote. pick someone
21:28 < jrayhawk> is there a specific conflict of interest you'd like to point to
21:28 < delinquentme> and yeah I need to make sure that i'm not trying to be like CONSPIRACY
21:28 < delinquentme> jrayhawk, yes.
21:28 < delinquentme> biggest economy on earth
21:28 < delinquentme> loans money
21:28 < delinquentme> from a private corp
21:28 < jrayhawk> it's private for a reason
21:28 < delinquentme> that corporation is operated by the largest banks
21:28 < delinquentme> and what would that reason be
21:29 < delinquentme> ?
21:29 < nmz787> so what tho, banks are good are keeping money, right?
21:29 < nmz787> outsourcing
21:29 < jrayhawk> to exist outside the influence of congress
21:29 < nmz787> contracting it out
21:29 < jrayhawk> just as the supreme court does
21:29 < delinquentme> jrayhawk, ok sure
21:29 < delinquentme> sure
21:29 < delinquentme> but should they be operating unchecked
21:29 < delinquentme> and when I say unchecked
21:29 < delinquentme> they're literally answers to no laws
21:29 < delinquentme> they answer to no oneeeeee
21:30 < delinquentme> not us, not the president
21:30 < delinquentme> Money fucking runs shit.
21:30 < delinquentme> THEY own that money
21:30 < delinquentme> *mind explodes*
21:30 < delinquentme> if you cant gather that I cannot help you
21:30 < delinquentme> sorry im too angry to talk moe
21:30 < delinquentme> more*
21:30 < delinquentme> i love you guys
21:30 < delinquentme> but I gotta chill
21:31 < delinquentme> <3
21:31 < strangewarp> Hopefully the greed-and-puppet show won't collapse until after there's a way for people to grow food out of computers
21:31 < jrayhawk> their job is to maximize economic parameters. they do this by manipulating economic faith. if what happened in september of 2008 was publicly revealed as it played out, what do you think the result would've been?
21:31 < strangewarp> I think helpless anxiety can only go so far, though
21:35 < delinquentme> Money
21:35 < delinquentme> everyone fucking wants it
21:36 < delinquentme> and the discrepancy between what weve seen and what those in control have seen
21:36 < delinquentme> well its like trying to visualize the expanse of our local group
21:36 < delinquentme> fucking big.
21:39 < strangewarp> This has definitely been a superb pummel, but I am somehow demotivated by the awareness of how shitty the world is, combined with how wild-eyed and mayflyish the people who realize it become
21:40 < delinquentme> ... im sorry?
21:40 < delinquentme> i dont follow?
21:40 < delinquentme> strages_home,
21:40 < delinquentme> erm strangewarp
21:41 < delinquentme> ah heres a nice excerpt
21:41 < delinquentme> Instead, with some notable exceptions, the senators themselves turned the cross-examination into a coronation, and exposed the extent to which elected officials still feel compelled to genuflect to powerful financial interests.
21:41 < delinquentme> So. Who governs who?
21:42 < delinquentme> “You’re obviously renowned, rightfully so I think, as being one of the most, you know, one of the best CEOs in the country for financial institutions,” crooned Sen. Bob Corker (R-TN).
21:42 < delinquentme> ahem.
21:42 < delinquentme> actually this is whildly offtopic
21:42 < delinquentme> wildly*
21:42 < jrayhawk> OH REALLY
21:42 < delinquentme> so yeah
21:42 < delinquentme> le sigh
21:42  * delinquentme huge jrayhawk
21:43 < delinquentme> I hope we're still ok-ish
21:43 < delinquentme> =]
21:43 < jrayhawk> My opinion of you has not changed significantly, if that helps.
21:43 < delinquentme> appreciated
21:44 < jrayhawk> I am also fucking baffled that I've wound up on the pro-establishment side of anything.
21:47 < strangewarp> On this issue there is no solution short of burning everyone responsible in the streets, and that would entail too much resource diversion away from the H+ project, so hopefully H+ will solve the scarcity-economy thing, and the scarcity-economy thing won't stop H+ in the interim
21:48 < nmz787> glad to be here to see it jrayhawk
21:49 < delinquentme> strangewarp, you're totally hitting at things near and dear to my heart
21:49 < delinquentme> SCARCITY?
21:49 < delinquentme> IDK
21:49 < delinquentme> yes you're thinking in the right vein here
21:50 < delinquentme> and zeitgeist mentions the jacque guy
21:50 < delinquentme> and thats where the flower power kind of kicks in .. like its a wonderfully idealist view
21:50 < strangewarp> have not heard of this person
21:51 < strangewarp> oh, is it one of those crazy non-technological post-scarce people?
21:52 < Mokbortolan_1> Fwoosh
21:52 < AdrianG> herpa
21:52 < nmz787> being in scarcity is why i was saying to grow CNS and leg free cows.... less techno dependence IMO than vat meat
21:53 < nmz787> damn it's good to come full circle :D
21:54 < kanzure> i don't think your knowledge of post-scarcity topics should come from fucking "Zeitgeist"
21:54 < kanzure> at the very least read what paul wrote he tends to cite helpful things
21:54 < kanzure> delinquentme: http://pdfernhout.net/
21:55 < delinquentme> kanzure, so I think its OK to say that some of his concepts
21:56 < delinquentme> reference post-scarcity in a reasonable light
21:56 < delinquentme> well.. specifically automation.
21:56  * strangewarp tabs that link, hugs kanzure, goes to bed
21:56 < jrayhawk> also i often cook with beef shins and feet and i am resentful of your techno-cows
21:56 < delinquentme> ill leave it at that
21:56 < jrayhawk> i would eat cow-brain, too, but i haven't found a good source for it
21:56 < kanzure> jrayhawk: what about horse-brain? don't you have a bunch of that?
21:56 < jrayhawk> horses are brainless already
21:56 < delinquentme> kanzure, i do like this "The biggest challenge of the 21st century is the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those thinking in terms of scarcity."
21:56 < delinquentme>     --Paul Fernhout
21:56 < nmz787> lol
21:58 < kanzure> unfortunately, paul is very anti-diybio
21:58 < nmz787> how is that?
21:59 < kanzure> nmz787: he thinks that i will probably be the cause of world plague
22:00 < strangewarp> If you are, it had better be a good one. Something monstery
22:00 < jrayhawk> it'll be an exceptionally nerdy plague. The white plague.
22:01 < kanzure> meanwhile joe's brother thinks i'll probably blow up the world through other means
22:01 < kanzure> i get no breaks :(
22:01 < jrayhawk> he thinks everyone will blow up the world through rational indiscipline
22:01 < jrayhawk> including himself
22:01 < jrayhawk> you don't get to feel special, there
22:01 < kanzure> hmm
22:01 < kanzure> well okay, that's true
22:02 < kanzure> if SIAI was to formulate an opinion about transhumanism, at least a more publicly-espoused one, then i suspect it would be negative
22:03 < kanzure> (or of the same form like "you guys are going to blow up the world")
22:04 < jrayhawk> Maybe anti-diybio; lesswrong is loosely transhumanist.
22:05 < jrayhawk> Eh, I guess that's pushing the definition a bit.
22:09 < kanzure> can anyone find me an android mobile ad network for russia or saudi arabia?
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22:36 < AdrianG> lol CNS and leg free cows
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23:02 < delinquentme> kanzure, have you read these papers that Fernhout wrote on vitamin D?
23:02 < kanzure> not thoroughly
23:02 < kanzure> ask fenn
23:03 < ParahSailin__> solution to peak phosphorus?
23:04 < ParahSailin__> seasteading + kelp farms
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--- Log closed Thu Jul 26 00:00:19 2012