--- Log opened Sat Sep 08 00:00:20 2012
00:03 < kanzure> Juul: hi
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01:34 < Mariu> kanzure: I can't get it to start, the game Survivor
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02:34 < sylph_mako> It's clearly a game about the inevitable breakdown of romantic relationships formed by unrepentantly ugly manipulators.
02:35 < sylph_mako> I wonder if the original author made it from experience of being the manipulator. That would tell a seriously affectingly bittersweet tale.
02:38 < sylph_mako> That they knew precisely what their problem was, well enough to put it into art- in a highly limited fledgeling art-form, no less. And yet, the nature of the illness would mean that they could not move beyond the cycle of aggressive breaking down of defenses, infiltration, being identified and harmed themselves, then the explosive end, and the emptiness that follows that.
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06:48 < chris_99> http://wiki.emfcamp.org/wiki/EMF2012_Video
06:49 < chris_99> some talks you guys may be interested in
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08:38 < kanzure> beepity boop.
08:42 < docl> howdy
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10:23 < kanzure> making web/javascript stuff less awful i guess: http://ryanflorence.com/2012/coffeescript-source-maps/
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10:45 < brownies> kanzure: holy crap
10:46 < brownies> maybe we can finally get rid of javascript once and for all
10:54 < eudoxia> javascript is kinda cool
10:54 < eudoxia> i made a content slider with it the other day
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11:56 < kanzure> eudoxia: content sliders don't even begin to describe the pain and suffering you can achieve with javascript apps
12:00 < brownies> heh
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13:07 < kanzure> http://humanamuh.de/ "HumanamuH predicts which people will enrich your life and lets you meet them"
13:07 < kanzure> i wonder if i can dump my data into this
13:12 < brownies> kanzure: have you tried it? what is it? how is it?
13:12 < chris_99> i'd be very interested to know what algorithm they're using
13:14 < kanzure> brownies: it's awful so far. it suffers from a pretty standard "chicken and egg" problem.
13:14 < kanzure> it would be better if the developer used it for himself for a while to build up data
13:14 < kanzure> your only option is to use the search feature where you can search by postal code or coordinates.. which of course will only display a list of search results with icons, which is completely worthless.
13:15 < kanzure> and it looks like most people don't fill out their profile, so there's no way to figure out if some random search result is interesting or not
13:17 < brownies> yeah, i see the same thing
13:17 < brownies> naturally, i also didn't fill out my porfiel
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14:01 < eudoxia> kanzure: i thought you liked javascript? (for some reason)
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14:21 < kanzure> eudoxia: i write a lot of it and i get paid to do so, but no.. javascript web development stuff is painful and infuriating
14:21 < kanzure> coffeescript makes it slightly less infuriating
14:21 < eudoxia> use C++ programs through CGI :3
14:22 < kanzure> that doesn't solve the same problems that javascript does for client-side stuff.
14:22 < kanzure> CGI is a pretty bad idea for C++ web apps anyway.
14:23 < chris_99> write a special webserver just for your app ;)
14:23 < eudoxia> or write a mod_[app] for apache
14:23 < eudoxia> that's basically all you can do from what I understand
14:24 < kanzure> apache isn't the only web server option
14:24 < kanzure> :(
14:24 < eudoxia> okay fine write modules for the other webservers
14:24 < kanzure> what does this have to do with javascript/browser stuff?
14:24 < eudoxia> oh i don't know
14:25 < eudoxia> what problems does javascript have for client side stuff?
14:25 < eudoxia> just for future ref
14:26 < kanzure> basically all the problems that javascript mvc frameworks solve
14:26 < kanzure> or that underscore solves.
14:26 < kanzure> and then there's the endless list of xss issues you need to be constantly aware of
14:29 < chris_99> that's not necessarily a fault of JS though
14:29 < eudoxia> ah i see
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14:48 < brownies> -bash: pip: command not found
14:48 < brownies> o.O
14:48 < brownies> has it been that long since i wrote any python...
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15:44 < kanzure> oh also, life before commonjs or requirejs wasn't life, it was several simultaneously intersecting circles of hell
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16:01 < kanzure> hmm. i want a obfuscated-js-to-coffeescript tool.
16:03 < chris_99> would http://js2coffee.org/ work, dunno if it's any good though
16:08 < kanzure> i've used that one before.
16:08 < kanzure> buut obfuscated js still looks obfuscated on the other end
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16:08 < kanzure> for instance, if the obfuscator only uses the variable 'a', 'a' will still be present everywhere
16:09 < chris_99> indeed, no way to fix that though is there?
16:10 < kanzure> sure there is.. if you use a lexer you can just rename tokens as you go, as long as you are looking at scopes properly
16:10 < kanzure> (unless variables are being used remotely, in which case you'd probably have to dump out a name lookup table wrapper thing)
16:12 < kanzure> e.g. "a.b.c" becomes "a.lookup['b'].lookup['c']" if your fixer changes "a.b" to "a.beautiful"
16:12 < chris_99> oh you mean you want to refactor the token names?
16:12 < kanzure> yes
16:13 < kanzure> under what circumstance would "a" be a useful variable name?
16:13 < kanzure> to me, i mean.
16:13 < chris_99> wonder if theres an IDE to do that in, eclipse works well for refactoring java for instance
16:14 < kanzure> fuck IDEs
16:37 < kanzure> anselm getting poetic in da house: https://groups.google.com/forum/?noredirect=&fromgroups=#!msg/diybio/GxRTESzUWUI/IS-zLDlUu_YJ
16:38 < kanzure> "Proteins don't "execute".  They fold and unfold.  They bounce into things a billion times a second.  They stick to things.  They unstick from things.  They wiggle, sometimes into new shapes depending on what's sticking to them or if they were tagged by other proteins. Sometimes they catalyze chemistry."
16:39 < kanzure> "Let me reemphasize the point here.  Programmers can exist because WE built computers -explicitly- to support those abstraction layers."
16:39 < kanzure> "The Wizards of EE formed a powerful magical convenant that protects all the gentle digital denizens from concerning themselves with the horrors of physical reality that lays sealed beneath the woven lithography.  It took them decades and a trillion dollars to build those magical seals."
16:39 < kanzure> "In biology we haven't even begun to form powerful enough magic to seal away the chaos of physical reality. Over the next few decades we'll almost certainly rebuild simple microbial cells (piecemeal, haltingly, not all at once) with an increasingly modularized set of signaling components and metabolic cores whose behavior we'll have -evolved- to be isolated and predictable."
16:39 < kanzure> "It will take bajillions of manhours to do that, and it will almost entirely be done by limited guesswork and brute-force screening (i.e. traditional engineering).  Only once we've untangled the gordian knot of the cell will we be able to construct these magical abstraction layers atop it....  and they'll probably be leaky layers at that.
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16:40 < kanzure> "Yes, but what -isn't- hackable?  Look, my gripe here is that cells are really -nothing- like a von neumann machine.  They're both nonlinear dynamical systems that happen to carry lots of "code" that controls their evolution in time."
16:40 < kanzure> "That's the strongest similarity.  Cells deserve more than crappy metaphors to other kinds of systems.  If y'all really want to improve how we engineer cells, it's worth taking a few years to begin understanding how they really work."
16:40 < kanzure> "As Bryan pointed out, SynBio suffered for a long time under the domination of a naive pack of EE/CS enthusiasts who couldn't pull the blinkers from their eyes to see that they weren't operating in the same kind of world anymore.  My recommendation to DiyBio enthusiasts is not to repeat their mistake."
16:41 < eudoxia> I have a stupid question
16:42 < kanzure> yess?
16:42 < eudoxia> won't making proteins isolated, deterministic components affect their efficiency?
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16:42 < kanzure> what do you mean by "making proteins isolated" ?
16:42 < kanzure> protein effiency varies by concentration of salts and all sorts of other compounds, and even temperature
16:42 < eudoxia> I mean, biology doesn't need components to be understandable because there's no-one to understand them, it just makes them go fast since nobody actually has (or had, until humanity came along) to read the blueprints and try to understand them
16:42 < eudoxia> "...whose behavior we'll have -evolved- to be isolated and predictable"
16:43 < kanzure> look at the spec sheet for running reverse transcriptase pcr.. lotta specific conditions you have to hit to get the proteins to, you know, do their god damn jobs
16:43 < kanzure> or even the regular kind of pcr (but it's somewhat of a simple protocol in comparison to the other crap going on inside cells)
16:44 < ParahSailin_> amen
16:45 < kanzure> ParahSailin_: so the new plan is to join alcor and start a death metal band
16:45 < kanzure> we can do music videos next to all the corpsicles
16:45 < eudoxia> you can use the LN2 vapor as a smoke machine
16:45 < kanzure> that's the spirit!
16:48 < eudoxia> I feel so stupid every time I say liquid nitrogen vapor
16:48 < kanzure> nah you're stating the origin
16:48 < kanzure> like "blood vapor"
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16:49 < eudoxia> I guess that makes sense
16:51 < ParahSailin_> liquid nitrogen explains why the vapor is cold enough to condense all the water out of the air
16:52 < eudoxia> I was going to reply with "but I thought it was the LN2 that was vaporizing" but then I realized it is colorless, and the opaque gray is water vapor
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17:04 < skorket> is anyone here into nootropics?
17:07 < AdrianG> yes.
17:07 < AdrianG> erryone.
17:07 < skorket> May I ask what your vitamin regiment is?
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17:25 < kanzure> skorket: i use adderall. others in here are somewhat more thoughtful in terms of their regiments, though.
17:28 < skorket> kanzure, from that link you posted the other day, that guy reports having all the effects of riddlin (or was it adderall) from just over the counter vitamin supplements.  You find adderall to be pretty effective?
17:29 < kanzure> yep.
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17:30 < kanzure> it's unreasonably effective in my case. but for others it has negative effects like dependency or weird "i can't get anything done" effects.
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17:32 < skorket> You have it through some type of health insurance?
17:33 < skorket> hope I'm not overstepping
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17:34 < kanzure> skorket: it used to be through health insurance until my health insurance began to suck
17:34 < yashgaroth> he pays out the ass for it
17:34 < kanzure> so now i just pay for it out of pocket
17:34 < kanzure> yashgaroth: out the ass is relative
17:35 < yashgaroth> compared to health insurance copays, but yeah
17:35 < kanzure> my last pickup the other day was $185 but i was at a new pharmacy.. the other sucky pharmacy i go to has been selling it at $240/mo.
17:35 < kanzure> well, it turns out that on my health insurance plan the copays would be higher than the actual cost, or something like that. i just don't care.
17:43 < ParahSailin_> sr is cheaper than that
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20:41 < kanzure> delinquentme: hi
20:41 < delinquentme> howwwdy!
20:44 < delinquentme> kanzure, any advice on coming into a legacy project and doing time estimates?
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20:47 < kanzure> delinquentme: charge at least 10x more than you think
20:48 < kanzure> and remember, a 400 hour project is only 10 weeks
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--- Log closed Sun Sep 09 00:00:21 2012