--- Log opened Sat Sep 22 00:00:14 2012 --- Day changed Sat Sep 22 2012 00:00 < nmz787> so can you stop cell cycle and just have a constant flow reactor? 00:00 < nmz787> like, the cells are dividing, but there's still nutrient and they stay to the bottom of the tank or something? 00:01 < yashgaroth> you could but people are lazy 00:01 < nmz787> what do you mean? 00:01 < nmz787> you just grow it up, centrifuge, repeat? 00:01 < yashgaroth> I've often though of a huge mesh with adherent cells on it, and you just flush out media+product and flush in new media 00:01 < nmz787> saw this re floccing http://www.amb-express.com/content/2/1/38 00:01 < yashgaroth> but generally it's easier to just centrifuge and discard the cells, then grow more 00:02 < nmz787> can you cook the cells and feed them to the next batch? 00:02 < yashgaroth> no that will scare the next batch and they won't make good protein 00:03 < yashgaroth> or rather media is a minor cost in production so they don't bother trying to validate 'cooked cell broth' 00:04 < yashgaroth> also most media these days are defined minimal media 00:04 < nmz787> "The average cell-cycle time of the faster-growing population was 52 min, which is among the shortest steady-state cell-cycle time of any eukaryotic organism on defined glucose ⁄ ammonium mineral medium, and is certainly much shorter than that of the more minimalist Mycoplasma genitalium" 00:04 < nmz787> the last part is interesting 00:05 < yashgaroth> m genitalium isn't known for its fast replication 00:05 < yashgaroth> and it's still a lot longer than many bacteria 00:05 < nmz787> but M. genitalium isnt a eukaryote right 00:06 < yashgaroth> nope it's a mycoplasma 00:06 < yashgaroth> smaller than most nuclei itself 00:06 < nmz787> weird 00:06 < yashgaroth> also mycoplasma are huge assholes but I suppose that's irrelevant 00:11 < nmz787> assholes that take a long time are the worst 00:12 < yashgaroth> I suppose it's related to them being tiny 00:16 < yashgaroth> well anyway it's sleepy time for me 00:16 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:38 -!- roksprok [~Zac@adsl-64-169-176-150.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:57 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:01 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@pool-71-182-199-191.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:06 -!- Shehrazad [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:06 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:09 < nmz787> whoa, this is pretty cool http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVekrZ-H5Pc&feature=etp-gs-hpl-02 02:09 < nmz787> "H+ The Digital Series - Official Trailer" 02:11 < nmz787> http://hplusdigitalseries.com/ 02:28 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:32 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:43 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:43 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:46 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:54 -!- strages_home [~strages@adsl-98-81-14-211.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:59 < roksprok> thanks for the tip nmz787, checking it out now 03:15 -!- roksprok [~Zac@adsl-64-169-176-150.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: roksprok] 03:18 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:19 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@pool-108-39-145-80.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:23 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:34 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:35 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:54 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:57 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:04 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:13 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:20 -!- klafka1 [~textual@67.174.253.229] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:23 -!- klafka1 [~textual@67.174.253.229] has quit [Client Quit] 04:54 -!- Shehrazad [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:55 -!- Shehrazad [~Shehrazad@95.5.97.29] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:55 -!- Shehrazad [~Shehrazad@95.5.97.29] has quit [Changing host] 04:55 -!- Shehrazad [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:15 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:29 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:39 -!- Mokbortolan_ [~Nate@c-76-115-136-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:40 -!- Mokbortolan_ [~Nate@c-76-115-136-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:40 -!- hifrog [~swamp@p5B16F0DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:45 -!- kirka [~Kirka@95-161-252-108.broadband.spb.TiERA.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:49 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:58 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:20 < chris_99> is it no longer possible to get bibtex from google 06:22 < chris_99> oh they've hidden the preferences link - http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar_preferences 06:48 -!- Simurg [~Shehrazad@78.174.40.143] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:48 -!- Simurg [~Shehrazad@78.174.40.143] has quit [Changing host] 06:48 -!- Simurg [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:49 -!- Shehrazad [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:57 -!- wizzorb [~usorid@c-76-23-254-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:16 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:48 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@cpe-24-92-62-156.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:49 < cluckj> kanzure, http://www.fastcompany.com/3001309/biohackers-and-diy-cyborgs-clone-silicon-valley-innovation 07:49 < cluckj> you will enjoy that 07:49 < cluckj> on some level, at least 08:03 -!- joshcryer [g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has quit [] 08:09 <@kanzure> cluckj: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/news 08:21 -!- EnLilaSko [~Nattzor@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:22 -!- jmil [~jmil@hive76/member/jmil] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:26 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@203.118.181.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:27 < gnusha> diyhpluswiki.git: 20b8f98 syria biohacking group contact info 08:30 < gnusha> diyhpluswiki.git: 3a8657e fix broken syria link and formatting 09:07 < cluckj> kanzure, awesome. 09:07 < cluckj> thanks 09:08 < cluckj> how regular do you guys have meetings in texas? 09:08 < cluckj> I'm trying to figure out when to go where and for how long 09:10 <@kanzure> fuck meetings 09:10 <@kanzure> we use the interwebs 09:10 <@kanzure> So, never. 09:10 <@kanzure> but if you were to show up, i could round up the usual culprits 09:12 < cluckj> word 09:12 < cluckj> I'm thinking jan/feb because winter here is the worst 09:13 < cluckj> then the bay area in july so I can catch that fbi conference if they have it again 09:34 <@kanzure> "Semi parametric version of Raspberry Pi Case" http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:30714 09:35 <@kanzure> http://blog.thingiverse.com/2012/09/19/progressive-cavity-pumps/ 09:36 <@kanzure> openscad attachments library http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:30136 09:37 <@kanzure> prusa 2 blender files http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:28951 09:37 <@kanzure> "legitimate rape whistle" http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:29108 ... hah 09:37 -!- aristarchus [~aristarch@unaffiliated/aristarchus] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:39 < ParahSailin> sucks it doesnt whistle 09:41 <@kanzure> i think that's the point 09:41 <@kanzure> er, wait, no, that's opposite of the point 09:42 < cluckj> it's ironic? 09:42 < cluckj> I don't know 09:45 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:50 <@kanzure> strangewarp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUxAwMHgrPQ 09:50 <@kanzure> nekomimi. 09:54 <@kanzure> oh this is neurosky? 09:57 < chris_99> haha that's crazy 09:57 <@kanzure> http://www.neurosky.com/Necomimi/ 09:58 <@kanzure> http://jp.necomimi.com/news/index.html 09:58 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 10:05 < AdrianG> lol 10:07 < strangewarp> You're lucky I tabbed over, since this IRC client doesn't ping me when my name is mentioned :p 10:07 * strangewarp clicks dat utoob.. 10:07 < chris_99> they should totally add a tail to that too 10:09 < strangewarp> Oh, these things 10:09 < strangewarp> chris_99: I think they just released a tail appliance, actually 10:09 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@gw-ko-kostr.inka-online.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:09 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@gw-ko-kostr.inka-online.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:09 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:09 < chris_99> haha! 10:10 < chris_99> i want to drive my car now via my brainwaves ;) 10:11 < strangewarp> Honestly.. I won't be interested in this sort of thing until they can send nerve signals, in addition to receiving them 10:11 < ThomasEgi> against a tree? 10:11 < strangewarp> But then, I'm kind of weird about the body 10:12 < chris_99> is there any other tech similar to EEG that's portable 10:13 -!- jcluck [~cluckj@cpe-24-92-62-156.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:13 < strangewarp> I like them as a fashion accessory, though 10:13 < strangewarp> hm 10:13 < chris_99> wasn't there something to do with shining light into the brain, i'm not sure how well that would work, what with hair and whatnot 10:14 < strangewarp> optogenetics? I've heard that's a crapshoot, judging from conversations I've lurked through in here 10:14 < chris_99> is this part of that - http://www.kurzweilai.net/how-to-stimulate-your-brain-by-shining-light-through-your-ears 10:15 < chris_99> ah no 10:15 < chris_99> that sounds interesting 10:15 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@cpe-24-92-62-156.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:15 -!- jcluck is now known as cluckj 10:17 < chris_99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7uRFVR9BPU seems to be an example of optogenetics 10:17 <@kanzure> chris_99: ultrasound is more doable than optogenetics. optogenetics requires, uh, genetic manipulation. 10:18 < chris_99> depends what you want to do it too 10:18 < chris_99> i guess 10:18 <@kanzure> stimulation. 10:32 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-163-101.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:33 < eudoxia> >this is how your gonna be controlled in the future if you don't act now sheeple 10:34 < eudoxia> i should just, i dunno, write a chromium plugin the hides youtube comments 10:35 <@kanzure> use youtube-dl or cclive 10:35 < eudoxia> miss the description etc. 10:35 <@kanzure> so? 10:35 < eudoxia> i want to have the video and the description and the user and the recommended videos... just not anyone else 10:41 < eudoxia> also i'm kinda disappointed the nekomimi only has three states 10:42 <@kanzure> yes well, eeg is awful 10:47 < eudoxia> would putting the electrodes under the dura significantly increase the resolution? 10:48 < eudoxia> besides significantly increasing the chances of dying of a brain infection 10:48 < yashgaroth> pretty sure the skull is the main inhibitor of signal 10:49 < kirka> *To almost 100% 10:49 < kirka> I think it's insane to "install" these implants 10:49 < kirka> Like magnets and so on 10:50 < kirka> It can easily infect user, and he'll die 10:50 < strangewarp> Until someone cracks transdermal biocompatibility at DIY prices... 10:50 < eudoxia> transdural* 10:50 < yashgaroth> in the brain maybe, if it's in your finger you do have an immune system there 10:50 <@kanzure> i don't think transdermal biocompatibility will improve how useless finger magnets are 10:51 < strangewarp> eudoxia: whoops 10:51 < kirka> These brain interfaces are very invasive and dangerous, Even lab ones 10:52 < eudoxia> maybe the CSF can act as a heat exchanger 10:54 < kirka> Isn't it rational to wait while implant technology will be perfected? 10:55 <@kanzure> no 10:55 < strangewarp> depends on what you mean by "rational" 10:55 <@kanzure> kirka: also, read these. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/implants/ 10:55 < kirka> Why would someone healthy need BCI? 10:55 < kirka> I dislike idea of brain implant actually 10:55 < eudoxia> well, I dunno, but what I'd like to do is something like 10:56 <@kanzure> at the moment a BCI can't do more than a few bits of information transfer per hour 10:56 < eudoxia> WYTIWYG 10:56 < Urchin> to interface with computer? 10:56 < AlonzoTG> om 10:56 < eudoxia> what you think is what you get 10:56 <@kanzure> but ideally it would be much more information transfer 10:56 < AlonzoTG> omg, someone's discussing something interesting in this channel 10:56 < AlonzoTG> !!! 10:56 < eudoxia> for codin' 10:56 * archels gasps 10:56 < Urchin> lol 10:56 < kirka> Vision is fast, safe and natural interface to outside world including computers 10:56 <@kanzure> kirka: it's not fast enough 10:56 <@kanzure> and it's not natural enough 10:57 * eudoxia believes BCIs will make him a less shitty coder 10:57 < kirka> That's subjective 10:57 <@kanzure> so? 10:58 < archels> kirka: although I agree that the BCI technologies we have today are rather terrible, I could think of a few reasons why a healthy person would want a BCI! 10:58 < strangewarp> Connecting things to the nervous system is the first step to both immersive haptic simulation, and extreme biomechatronic bodmods. And possibly that "uploading" stuff, as well 10:58 < strangewarp> idk 10:58 < eudoxia> AlonzoTG I found you in the technocalypse list the other day 10:58 < AlonzoTG> =) 10:58 < AlonzoTG> om 10:58 < kirka> Well, for me cell repair machines will be enough 10:58 <@kanzure> technocalypse was just michel bauwen's anti-transhumanism documentary 10:58 <@kanzure> michel bauwen runs p2pfoundation and now seems to be far more pro-transhumanist 10:59 < AlonzoTG> Yeah, I'm working on two writings that might show themselves in the coming days/weeks/months. 10:59 < eudoxia> kanzure i thought it was originally a term by michael rosko that was adopted by the non-existent cult of transtopia 10:59 < strangewarp> P2P Foundation recently hosted a Dale Carrico article, which made me dry-heave a bit 10:59 <@kanzure> eudoxia: well, it's also the name of a documentary. it's pretty awful. 10:59 < AlonzoTG> One is a paper called "topics in mind coalescence" which builds on someone else's paper called "coalescing minds". 10:59 <@kanzure> AlonzoTG: your concept of 'minds' bores me. 10:59 < eudoxia> kanzure yeah I saw a link to that one but didn't watch it, I assumed it would be awful 10:59 < AlonzoTG> shut up. 11:00 < yashgaroth> he's got you there kanz 11:00 < AlonzoTG> The other is a killer app for neural interfacing, 11:00 < AlonzoTG> which would be a full game, 11:00 < archels> kanzure: On the subject of BCI, have you heard of the new superresolution microelectrodes? 11:01 < strangewarp> So, fingernails seem like natural transdural ports, maybe that system can be co-opted 11:01 <@kanzure> nah 11:01 < AlonzoTG> where you mind-meld with your avatar and either fuck your brains out or explore different transhumanist paradigms, 11:01 < AlonzoTG> ideally linked in to your home replicator. ;) 11:01 <@kanzure> AlonzoTG: this sounds like second life, which was a terrible failure 11:01 < eudoxia> strangewarp oh god no not sticking things under your fingernails 11:01 < AlonzoTG> Agreed. 11:01 < strangewarp> Second Life failed because it was not haptic 11:01 < strangewarp> and programmed in a shitty way 11:01 <@kanzure> no 11:01 < AlonzoTG> Secondlife has been stagnant for at least five years now. 11:02 <@kanzure> i don't think haptics would have made it better 11:02 < archels> kanzure: They use CCD technology, so you essentially get as many electrodes as there are pixels on your camera. :) 11:02 <@kanzure> joystick feedback never improves things that much 11:02 < kirka> No wonder that h+ creates so ditorted image in public''s eyes, it's way too radical 11:02 < strangewarp> kanzure: sorry, I should specify, "immersively haptic", not just haptic through some widget 11:02 <@kanzure> kirka: joystick feedback isn't radical 11:02 < kirka> BCI is 11:02 < ThomasEgi> strangewarp, BCI isn't exactly the same as connecting stuff to the nerves running through your body. wiring up some nerves and connecting them to a computer (you don't even need transdermals for that), is a _comparebly_ easy task. 11:02 <@kanzure> kirka: BCI already exists 11:03 < kirka> Yes it does 11:03 < strangewarp> ThomasEgi: Hmmm, point. So you could do everything subcutaneously, and then have wireless communication. 11:03 < AlonzoTG> actually, there have been some revolutionary advances in the past few weeks. 11:03 < AlonzoTG> on bio-compatible transistors and stuff... 11:03 < AlonzoTG> a major enabling technology! 11:03 <@kanzure> "revolutionary"? 11:03 < yashgaroth> BCI is pretty mainstream futuristic, there's like a dozen movies where people "jack in" a needle into their brain 11:03 <@kanzure> AlonzoTG: you're probably full of shit 11:03 < AlonzoTG> fuck you, kanzure. 11:03 <@kanzure> "revolutionary" is one of those tell words 11:04 < AlonzoTG> In this case, I think it is, 11:04 < AlonzoTG> because I think it will enable the ultimate form of human neural interfacing. 11:04 < archels> kirka: Don't make us reiterate cochlear implants... 11:04 < kirka> Yes they exist 11:04 <@kanzure> cochlear implants are very mainstream 11:05 <@kanzure> i think there's a few million in circulation, at least 11:05 < ThomasEgi> and their audio-quality still sux badly compared to natural hearing. 11:05 < kirka> But h+ guys postulate that BCI is almost mandatory to become "better" in some way 11:05 < eudoxia> the ultimate form of neural interfacing is when your neurons are software objects 11:05 * eudoxia pisses people off with his uploading bullshit 11:05 <@kanzure> ThomasEgi: actually i hear that some of the newer ones are pretty great. still not as great as possible, but orders-of-magnitude better than the original crap. 11:06 < kirka> Actually, I understand why Drexler doesn't talk about h+ and human enhancement 11:06 < AlonzoTG> yeah, uploading is for fags. 11:06 -!- AlonzoTG was kicked from ##hplusroadmap by kanzure [AlonzoTG] 11:06 <@kanzure> uploading is one of his trigger words 11:06 < archels> We also since recent got pretty decent retinal implants. 11:06 < kirka> He is a humanist, and I'm too 11:06 < archels> kanzure: haha 11:06 <@kanzure> kirka: humans use BCIs. does that make me a bad person? 11:06 < ThomasEgi> hehe easy to believe that. i think they started with like 16 electrodes for an cochlear implant.. iirc they are now at 64 or so. with some tricks to get a few more inbetweens stimulated 11:06 < kirka> I like humanity as it is, I just need to live longer 11:06 < kirka> kanzure No 11:07 <@kanzure> kirka: then what do you have against computers?? 11:07 < eudoxia> people I have successfully trolled on the internet with uploading: Christopher Phoenix, Alan Grimes 11:07 -!- AlonzoTG [~atg@dsl092-168-049.wdc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:07 < AlonzoTG> =\ 11:07 < kirka> I'm just trying to understand what's so interesting about BCI and diy implants 11:07 < strangewarp> Uploading is a nice goal, but I think the most medium-term fun will be had in immersive simulations connected to the nervous system, honestly 11:07 <@kanzure> AlonzoTG: you should refrain from talking about uploading in here. you are very bad about it. 11:07 < archels> kirka: No one is forcing you to wear or implant a BCI, but personally I find it hard to see why you would not want it. :) 11:07 <@kanzure> s/about it/at it 11:08 < kirka> kanzure I actually like computing machines, but they are slaves to my will :) 11:08 < AlonzoTG> That's a very difficult subject. 11:08 <@kanzure> kirka: will? 11:08 < AlonzoTG> Because a neural interface isn't just a neural interface. 11:08 < kirka> kanzure As master and slave 11:08 < AlonzoTG> I mean you need at least a few dozen killobytes of disambiguation to specify precisely what you mean by a neural interface... 11:08 < AlonzoTG> There are hundreds of variables, 11:09 < AlonzoTG> among them, and very important to me are: 11:09 < AlonzoTG> can the gubbernment shut it off? 11:09 < AlonzoTG> can a corporation shut it off? 11:09 < AlonzoTG> do you have the source? 11:09 < AlonzoTG> can it evolve over time as techniques improve? 11:09 <@kanzure> i will kick you again if you turn into a government conspiracy theorist, damn it 11:09 < AlonzoTG> How difficult will it be to get a hardware upgrade? 11:09 < ThomasEgi> AlonzoTG, neural interface basically means. sending information from a machine, to your neurons. and back. 11:09 < ThomasEgi> without all the phylosophical and social stuff attached 11:09 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o yashgaroth] by kanzure 11:10 <@yashgaroth> hmm 11:10 < strangewarp> kirka: Some people want totally rad bodmods; other people want to live in a noosphere; other people want to be heroic human masters of their domain. I try to respect all of these, since I think they are determined by a combination of ideology and level-of-body-dysmorphic-tendencies. 11:10 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o archels] by kanzure 11:10 < AlonzoTG> Look, kanzure, I have more experience than almost anyone in arguing against uploading, so it is extremely insulting to say that I'm "bad at it"... 11:10 <@kanzure> AlonzoTG: your arguments are "I have a psychological condition that makes me think you're all out to get me" 11:10 < eudoxia> it's true he's been rambling on and on for years for everyone to see 11:10 < cluckj> lol 11:10 < kirka> satrangewarp Yes, but for h+ movement it's bad PR 11:11 < eudoxia> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/technocalypse/ 11:11 <@kanzure> eudoxia: who? 11:11 < strangewarp> kirka: Hmm, possibly; depends on the framing of the argument. I get what you're saying though 11:11 -!- Mokbortolan_ [~Nate@c-76-115-136-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:11 < cpopell> Hey eudoxia 11:11 < eudoxia> hey 11:12 < kirka> strangewarp Actually I don't know a name for a movement that advocates acheiving better life standards through technology. I think such ideas could be popular. 11:13 <@yashgaroth> pretty sure that's just civilization 11:13 <@kanzure> and bathing 11:13 < kirka> There are either people who don't care, or radical h+ guys who'll are already implanting stuff into their bodies 11:13 <@kanzure> most of the people implanting things are idiots. it's not radical. 11:14 < kirka> Heh 11:14 < kirka> I think so 11:14 <@kanzure> wait, no, i think that's the definition of radical 11:14 <@kanzure> ok whatever 11:14 < eudoxia> i wouldn't say lepht is an idiot, she's just, like, psychoti 11:14 < ThomasEgi> kanzure, +1 on the idiot thing as many don't even do their most basic homework about what's dangerous to a body and what's not. 11:14 < strangewarp> Yeah, implanting stuff is only good for making yourself feel radical; it isn't meaningfully transgressive with the banal level of sophistication you can currently get in DIY implants 11:15 <@kanzure> ThomasEgi: so.. running 3 million amps through my heart, totally ok right? :) 11:15 < ThomasEgi> kanzure, there are people who think that's apparently no problem :D 11:15 < eudoxia> has there yet been a case of someone brutally maiming their fingers in an attempt to get magnetic implants? 11:15 < ThomasEgi> very few know better. and even less know well enough to build implant's that work fine. 11:16 <@kanzure> eudoxia: new plan! let's put a rfid chip on a table, place our finger over it and smash our finger with a hammer until it's embedded 11:16 < kirka> I think that general public should have greater awareness of possibilities to improve human condition that technology gives us. That's necessary to make fatal crisis less probable in the future. That's why PR is important. 11:16 <@kanzure> PR is not going to save the world 11:16 < ThomasEgi> true. 11:16 <@kanzure> the world doesn't need saving anyway 11:16 < ThomasEgi> and those idiot's are causing a lot of bad PR 11:16 < kirka> kanzure You are right 11:16 < ThomasEgi> which makes it harder for the few people who know what htey are doing. 11:16 <@kanzure> most people like cpopell are telling me that PR will attract smart people to work on projects 11:17 < eudoxia> achieving your goals by working on projects is the best pr 11:17 <@kanzure> but so far the PR has just attracted people who aren't educated 11:17 < cpopell> Sup 11:17 < cpopell> cpopell is doinh. 11:17 <@kanzure> cpopell: your theory is failing on me 11:17 < kirka> kanzure But public awareness could make transition less turbulent => less dangerous 11:17 < cpopell> Doing his own thing 11:17 < ThomasEgi> kanzure, i can totaly agree with that observation 11:18 < cpopell> kirka, thats why im trying to get my consulting firm going 11:18 < kirka> That's a good thing to do 11:18 < cpopell> However,I am definitely a radical 11:20 < cpopell> Id love to be a lobbyist 11:21 < kirka> Could you lobby for MNT funding a little? :) 11:21 < eudoxia> seconding that 11:22 < cpopell> I need to find clients. Eudoxia, apply yet? 11:23 < eudoxia> cpopell in process. i'll take the SAT in two weeks and the subject tests in early november so I'll be applying regular action 11:24 < cpopell> Okay. Keep me updated. 11:39 -!- cpopell2 [ad42e490@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.66.228.144] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:39 < cpopell2> yeh. 11:48 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-163-101.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:51 -!- wizzorb [~usorid@c-76-23-254-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:01 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:05 -!- roksprok [~Zac@adsl-75-36-187-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:11 -!- Mokbortolan_ [~Nate@c-76-115-136-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:13 -!- highfrog [~swamp@p5B16F0DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:14 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:17 -!- hifrog [~swamp@p5B16F0DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:24 -!- Cat4D [182bc9d2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.43.201.210] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:34 < nsh> Id love to be a lobbyist 12:34 < nsh> and other awful things i read on the internet 12:34 < kirka> Heh 12:34 < nsh> :) 12:34 < kirka> Maybe he wants to lobby for rational projects 12:34 * nsh blinks 12:35 < nsh> that's like announcing for privacy 12:35 < nsh> no, i'm being facetious 12:35 < kirka> Heh 12:35 < nsh> you can do good advocacy work 12:35 < nsh> c.f EFF etc. 12:38 < cpopell2> explicitly 12:38 < cpopell2> I want to lobby for non-destructive tech policy 12:38 < cpopell2> by clarifying to rich old dudes 12:38 < cpopell2> just what's in it for them 12:39 < kirka> It's strange for me that they do not understand that they would benefit from medical nanotechnology, for example 12:39 <@kanzure> kirka: rich old dudes will be dead before medical nanotechnology works 12:39 < cpopell2> not if they threw enough cash at it >_> 12:39 < cpopell2> I'm constantly dismayed that the gates foundation has like 400B 12:40 < bkero> cpopell2: They can throw all the cash they want 12:40 <@kanzure> throwing money will not reduce the amount of work that is required 12:40 < cpopell2> no, but it will incentivize working on it 12:40 < bkero> cpopell2: http://t.co/ku11fbS2 12:40 <@kanzure> no you just claimed that they wouldn't be dead 12:40 < bkero> That article goes over directly that 12:40 <@kanzure> so now you're claiming something else 12:40 < kirka> kanzure Yes, now it's too late for them. But in 1991 they still had time 12:40 < bkero> They can throw obscene amounts of money at it, but it's no guarantee it will work or be done in their lifetime :) 12:40 < cpopell2> I'm not convinced we're anywhere near a saturation point 12:41 <@kanzure> cpopell2: you seem to be unable to follow your own argument 12:41 < cpopell2> kanzure: I'd say 50 year olds have a decent chance 12:41 < bkero> If you want something that doesn't exist, there's only a probability you can get it 12:41 <@kanzure> it's like talking to a wall :( 12:41 * kanzure goes back to fixing his cipher 12:41 < cpopell2> Don't worry, I feel the same way 12:41 < cpopell2> hi5 12:41 < cpopell2> it's like talking to my ex-girlfriend, fundamentally alien ways of thinking 12:41 < cpopell2> :P 12:42 <@kanzure> 12:39 < cpopell2> not if they threw enough cash at it 12:42 <@kanzure> 12:40 < cpopell2> no, but it will incentivize working on it 12:42 <@kanzure> your second statement does not support your rich old dude argument 12:42 <@kanzure> this isn't alien, this is english.. 12:42 < cpopell2> Throwing cash does not reduce work needed 12:42 < cpopell2> but it increases the number of workers 12:42 < cpopell2> As well as how frugal said workers have to be 12:43 <@kanzure> increasing the number of people working on a problem doesn't necessarily solve the problem faster 12:43 <@kanzure> e.g. 9 women can't have 1 baby in 1 month 12:43 < cpopell2> ... 12:44 <@kanzure> cpopell2: you certainly haven't accelerated freitas' research, for example. 12:45 <@kanzure> (since we were talking about nanotechnology) 12:46 < kirka> cpopell2 What do you think of molecular nanotechnology? 12:46 < cpopell2> If it advances human capability, I support it* 12:46 < kirka> That's good, thanks 12:47 < cpopell2> *(I feel free to disregard this statement in a variety of ethical situations about how said advancements come about) 12:47 < kirka> Heh 12:48 < kirka> As I can see there are ~5-10 MNT researchers in America 12:48 < kirka> That's ridiculous 12:48 < cpopell2> yeah 12:48 < cpopell2> I did nano stuff but it was all the micro/nano border 12:49 < kirka> There are probably a lot of people that wanted to make MNT their scientific career 12:49 < kirka> I wonder why they don't do it, where is the barrier 12:49 <@kanzure> because science doesn't pay 12:50 <@kanzure> and academia is abusive. 12:50 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:50 < cpopell2> Yup 12:50 < cpopell2> this is why I came very close to simply dropping my masters. 12:50 < Urchin> sounds right 12:50 < cpopell2> Also, kirka, for instance, my lab setup is ~200k (well, the one my research comes from. I use a computer) 12:51 < kirka> That's not a whole lot of money 12:51 <@kanzure> i should form an anti-science-abuse league 12:51 <@kanzure> s/science/scientist 12:52 < kirka> It's strange that hevyweights like Gates invest in nuclear reactors and nanoparticles, but don't invest in MNT 12:53 < kirka> Maybe I don't have enough information, I could be wrong 12:53 < Urchin> nuclear reactors are important too 12:53 < kirka> Yes I agree 12:53 < kirka> Of courdse they are 12:54 < strangewarp> Nuclear reactors are space-cadet crowd-pleasers, and malaria vaccines are ideology-food for green-earth techno-regressives 12:54 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:54 < cpopell2> kirka: The smarthand project had 5 million euros of funding, total 12:54 < cpopell2> from what I recall 12:54 < kirka> strangewarp So you suggest that he runs the whole thing just for PR? Could be so. 12:55 < cpopell2> I don't know if we've SEEN his endgame yet 12:55 < strangewarp> kirka: Gates didn't donate to charity until Bill Clinton dragged him out into the open for it, so... 12:55 < ParahSailin> mnt? 12:55 < kirka> strangewarp Interesting, thanks 12:55 < cpopell2> I wouldn't be surprised if gates is secretly backing Planetary Resources 12:55 < kirka> ParahSailin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_nanotechnology 12:56 < ParahSailin> lftr is cool, not just a crowd-pleaser 12:56 < ParahSailin> unfortun 12:56 < cpopell2> ugh, why'd you sign off eudoxia 12:56 < kirka> btw That's the best bionic arm I have seen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyCLuVOmZxo 12:56 < ParahSailin> ately someone like bill gates is the only one with enough money to navigate the aec 12:57 < ParahSailin> peter thiel doesnt even have enough money to do a thorium reactor 12:57 < Urchin> civilization-wise I see space colonization as the most important upcomming project 12:58 < ParahSailin> colonize antarctica, then moon 12:58 < Urchin> nah, just go straight for the asteroids and build space stations 12:58 < ParahSailin> "oh, that's too expensive and no reason?" 12:59 < strangewarp> turn mars into computronium! 12:59 < Urchin> enough with these fucking gravity wells! 12:59 < kirka> kanzure Do you think that positive public attitude towards MNT would move Congress? 12:59 < ParahSailin> "carry on, do something even more expensive and more pointless" 12:59 <@kanzure> kirka: i don't care about congress' thoughts about molecular nanotechnology 12:59 < Urchin> isn't it a current argument that the Earth can't support our present level of population? 12:59 < kirka> kanzure They still have money and power 13:00 <@kanzure> Urchin: no, the earth can support a few multiples of our population size 13:00 < ParahSailin> Urchin, evidence is no 13:00 < Urchin> does it not stand to reason that we should look for that support elsewhere then? 13:00 < kirka> kanzure But you know it better 13:00 <@kanzure> kirka: i don't care. i also have money and power. 13:00 < ParahSailin> see: current earth population 13:00 < Urchin> well, it's still a popular argument 13:00 <@kanzure> the argument doesn't make sense 13:00 <@kanzure> it's cheaper to just kill all humans 13:00 <@kanzure> if that's your concern. 13:00 < Urchin> it's not 13:01 < Urchin> space colonization is 13:01 < kirka> I think it's important to have a "backup" of our civilisation 13:01 <@kanzure> kirka: definitely. 13:02 < kirka> But with current technology it would be very complex enterprise 13:02 < Urchin> so? 13:02 <@kanzure> so? 13:02 < kirka> I don't know 13:03 < kirka> It would be great if we had a little bas on the moon before molecular assembler is developed 13:03 < kirka> *base 13:08 -!- klafka [~textual@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:10 -!- Cat4D [182bc9d2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.43.201.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:21 -!- cpopell2 [ad42e490@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.66.228.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:32 -!- highfrog [~swamp@p5B16F0DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Love Everything! Resistance is Futile.] 13:32 -!- hifrog [~swamp@p5B16F0DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:45 -!- cpopell_ [ad42e490@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.66.228.144] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:46 -!- roksprok_ [~Zac@adsl-64-169-176-150.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:47 -!- roksprok [~Zac@adsl-75-36-187-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:47 -!- roksprok_ is now known as roksprok 13:48 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-163-101.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:48 < eudoxia> kirka you are taking robert too seriously 13:48 < eudoxia> we are not at risk of being scavanged for atoms by ecophages 13:48 < kirka> I understand 13:48 < kirka> Who is Robert? 13:49 < eudoxia> freitas 13:49 < kirka> No, I'm not goo guy 13:49 < eudoxia> cookie-cutter guy then? :P 13:49 < cpopell_> eudoxia, you're on :V 13:49 < kirka> But we have a lot of other weapons 13:49 < kirka> Nuclear, biological 13:50 < kirka> Sure, they probably cannot destroy whole population 13:50 < eudoxia> but with mnt you can make a shitton of nukes? 13:50 < eudoxia> I doubt it 13:50 < kirka> NO 13:50 < kirka> We already have nukes 13:50 < kirka> *no 13:50 < eudoxia> I just don't see how MNT plays into the need to have a moon base 13:51 < kirka> Ther is possibility of some war caused by economic turbulence 13:52 < eudoxia> an assembler-centered economy would definitely change the economy 13:52 < kirka> I agree, Moon base seems an excess 13:52 < eudoxia> a friend of mine convinced me colonizing the ocean was better 13:53 < kirka> Looks rational. With geothermal energy I suppose? 13:54 < eudoxia> I think he suggested hydrothermal vents 13:54 < kirka> Ah 13:54 < eudoxia> which is the same 13:54 < strangewarp> When people have their basic needs of food, water, and housing satiated, they're less likely to become warlike.. so if you get molecular assemblers to the point where they're acting as public dispensers for such things, it would probably make the world more stable, not less 13:54 < cpopell_> moon is a good place to do construction 13:55 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:55 < kirka> I think universal ecophage isn't possible in near future. For example it would need a lot of tools, maybe 1000s to deal woth diffirent atoms and molecules 13:56 < eudoxia> precisely 13:56 < kirka> strangewarp I hope it's so 13:56 < eudoxia> that's one point I never heard Freitas address 13:56 < strangewarp> Maybe, but all you'd need is a box that can assemble basic nutrition, clean water, and building materials, and you'd be set 13:56 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56 < eudoxia> I was thinking something more like, MNT to create microfluidic ordinary-chemistry plants to synthesize some basic food chemicals 13:56 < strangewarp> So the problem is hard, definitely, but doesn't require a /comprehensive/ solution - just a good-enough solution 13:57 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:58 < kirka> I hope so 13:58 < kirka> Threr are still politics who think with balls, not their heads 13:58 < kirka> And military guys 13:58 < strangewarp> "The grand irony of the modern age is that technologies of abundance are held by elites who think only in terms of scarcity" 13:59 * strangewarp /paraphrasing 13:59 < eudoxia> oh good i thought it was an original quote 13:59 < eudoxia> since google didn't find it 13:59 < kirka> eudoxia For radical solution of food problem, I thought about engineering a plant that grows easiliy and produces fruits tailored to human nutritional needs. But that's order of magnitude more complex than current genetic engineering. 14:00 < kirka> Heh 14:00 < cpopell_> radical solution of food problem: improve distribution 14:00 < strangewarp> There are two paths to the food problem: improving distribution, and improving food-bootstrapping tech 14:00 < strangewarp> I advise pursuing both 14:03 <@kanzure> i advise catapults for food distribution 14:03 <@kanzure> we can catapult food with railguns from our backyards to siberia or w/e 14:03 < kirka> Heh 14:04 < strangewarp> I choose... to take that idea seriously 14:04 < strangewarp> hmmm 14:04 < kirka> Thre aren't much people in Siberia 14:04 < eudoxia> I don't think that's sustainable 14:04 < eudoxia> railguns are expensive 14:04 <@kanzure> there's prolly a cheaper way to catapult things 14:04 < kirka> I think Africas food problems are caused by laziness - they could have three harvests per year 14:05 < strangewarp> err 14:05 < kirka> Israel exports food grown with hydroponics 14:06 < strangewarp> Africa's politics are fucked up from the legacy of colonialism and post-colonialism, and their famines and wars are caused by the political fallout thereof 14:06 < kirka> And Palestina lives off humanitarian aids 14:06 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:06 < ParahSailin> africa's food problems are because colonists wanted to plant annual corn that is not really suited to the lcimate 14:06 < kirka> Hmmh 14:06 < ParahSailin> previously subsaharan africa was pastoralist as in herding animals that eat grass 14:06 < cpopell_> politics and war =/= laziness 14:07 < ParahSailin> less erosion and desertification that way 14:07 < eudoxia> don't forget diseases 14:07 < kirka> They are incapable of forming effective governments on their own, it seems 14:07 < kirka> Africa is full of dictators 14:07 < ParahSailin> who is capable of forming effective governments 14:07 < eudoxia> well, what passes for effective in the world 14:07 < kirka> West is good at it, seriously 14:07 <@kanzure> no we'er not 14:08 < cpopell_> I think you're ignoring context in a lot of ways, kirka 14:08 < kirka> Better than rest of the world 14:08 < kirka> Probably 14:08 < strangewarp> The lines that make up many African countries are the same ones that were drawn by colonial interests, and often contain multiple incompatible cultural groups in a manner that leads to strife 14:08 < kirka> I just don't like that 3rd world countries are exploiting humanitarian aid 14:08 < cpopell_> what do you think about south america, kirka? 14:08 -!- roksprok [~Zac@adsl-64-169-176-150.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: roksprok] 14:08 < strangewarp> Dictatorships like the D.R. Congo are largely sustained by neo-colonial resource-extraction companies, who will prop up a corrupt government in order to keep prices low 14:08 < kirka> Well Brazil seems to be on right way 14:09 < kirka> I may have a large pro-capitalist bias, yes 14:10 < cpopell_> I have a large pro-capitalist bias as well, but I also realize it's not a mathematically perfect system 14:10 < ParahSailin> pro-capitalist or pro-mercantilist? 14:10 < kirka> Because I'm precepting results of 70 years communism building right now 14:10 < cpopell_> I'm sort of fond of a mixed capitalist/socialist society 14:11 < kirka> ParahSailin Sorry, I haven't heard about mercantilism as separate doctrine 14:11 < kirka> Hmmh 14:11 < kirka> I have strong anti-socialist and anti-communist bias as well 14:12 < strangewarp> Honestly.. the USSR's form of communism, as set forth by Lenin at the second International, required so much ideological purification that it would inevitably create an environment of corruption and repression 14:12 < ParahSailin> certain political scientists have tried to reclaim the word capitalism from the way marx defined it as a synonym for mercantilism 14:12 < kirka> Russia was richer before commies came 14:12 < strangewarp> But, I don't think there is anything objectively wrong with communalist efforts in general 14:12 < cpopell_> I support socialism to some degree at this point mainly because there aren't going to be enough jobs for people soon 14:12 < cpopell_> even more so than now 14:12 < kirka> Yes, jobs seem a problem 14:12 < kirka> Meybe grundeneinkomm could work 14:12 < kirka> *Maybe 14:13 < ParahSailin> generally they distinguish "good capitalism" from mercantilism as the absence of monopolies to capital owners 14:14 < kirka> But that means that government has to do domething to monopolists? 14:15 < kirka> It looks to me that most monopolies will decay by themeselves as a consequence of low mobility: look at Microsoft 14:15 < eudoxia> last i checked microsoft is still going strong and only 1-2% of people use linux on the desktop 14:15 < strangewarp> Microsoft is trying to stop people from switching to Linux by strong-arming the chip manufacturers into hardcoding mechanisms that only accept Windows OSes.. 14:16 < ParahSailin> i mean government-granted monopolies 14:16 < kirka> Yes, but it's not the largest IT commpany anymore 14:16 < kirka> ParahSailin That's bad, I agree 14:16 < ParahSailin> a la the east india company, or a modern days IP profiteer 14:16 < eudoxia> oh god why did you have to bring that up 14:16 < eudoxia> Intel's latest chip will be a "Windows 8 only chip" 14:17 * eudoxia 's aneurysm just keeps getting bigger and bigger 14:17 * kirka has AMD 14:18 <@kanzure> so 70 million linux users? 14:18 <@kanzure> and 500 million android/linux users 14:18 < chris_99> is that for real eudoxia? 14:18 < Urchin> linux is very much on servers 14:19 < kirka> I thought a lot about possible benefits of centralized automated industry goverened by control theory alorithms and came to conclusion that their time was in 20 century, Modern world cannot be centralized anymore 14:19 < eudoxia> http://techcrunch.com/2012/09/14/new-intel-chip-wont-support-linux/ 14:19 < kirka> There was such project in USSR 14:19 < kirka> But it was abandoned 14:20 < kirka> Maybe that's a good thing 14:20 < strangewarp> It could have turned things around, honestly, if the USSR's leadership weren't so resistant to automation 14:20 < kirka> Yes 14:21 < strangewarp> But, the USSR was a fatally flawed project, thanks to Lenin's early obsession with ideological purity.. 14:21 < chris_99> i'm confused by that eudoxia it say's it's x86 14:21 < eudoxia> "any ideology that requires changing human nature is bound to fail" 14:21 < kirka> It's a good thing that that archaic regime cdidn't crashed 20 years later 14:21 -!- Simurg [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21 < strangewarp> indeed 14:21 < Urchin> hm,14th most powerful supercomputer is running windows 14:22 < kirka> We have cold war ended 14:22 < eudoxia> chris_99 I'm confused too. I did not know processors had to support operating systems, and not the other way around. 14:22 < chris_99> it's just that it's not supported 14:22 < chris_99> it doesn't mean it wont run 14:22 < kirka> Clover Trail is just a chip for tablets 14:23 < Urchin> Lenin was getting his act together near the end, Stalin fucked things up 14:23 < chris_99> also it's just a crappy Atom chip ;) 14:23 < kirka> They all had criminal past: STalin actually robbed banks 14:23 < Urchin> lol 14:24 < chris_99> so, how are Lenin/Stalin actually commies? 14:24 < Urchin> Stalin had one good thing going for him during WWII, he was *proven* to be a lousy military commander 14:24 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@78.174.40.143] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:24 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@78.174.40.143] has quit [Changing host] 14:24 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:25 < kirka> chris_99 They called themeselves "communists" 14:26 < kirka> Oh, it's late already 14:26 * kirka sleeps 14:26 -!- kirka [~Kirka@95-161-252-108.broadband.spb.TiERA.org] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 14:27 < chris_99> https://www.coursera.org/course/bioelectricity 14:34 < cpopell_> viscosity had a larger than predicted effect on droplet size 14:34 < cpopell_> fuuuuck 14:34 < cpopell_> on the other hand, I predicted the response to all other variables 14:34 < chris_99> pardon? 14:36 < cpopell_> my masters thesis model 14:38 < chris_99> whats your thesis on? 14:40 < cpopell_> 'A physics inspired control oriented model of near field electrohydrodynamic inkjet printing' 14:43 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@203.118.181.245] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:44 -!- roksprok [~Zac@12.46.132.146] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:04 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-163-101.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:24 -!- Cat4D [182bc9d2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.43.201.210] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:35 -!- Cat4D [182bc9d2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.43.201.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:41 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:06 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:09 -!- roksprok [~Zac@12.46.132.146] has quit [Quit: roksprok] 16:10 -!- aristarchus [~aristarch@unaffiliated/aristarchus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:11 -!- jmil [~jmil@hive76/member/jmil] has quit [Quit: jmil] 16:11 -!- Thorbinator [~Thorbinat@76-14-130-152.rk.wavecable.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:12 -!- Thorbinator [~Thorbinat@76-14-130-152.rk.wavecable.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:15 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@pool-108-39-145-80.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:16 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@pool-108-39-145-80.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:34 -!- roksprok [~Zac@adsl-75-36-187-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:34 -!- EnLilaSko [~Nattzor@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -] 16:57 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-171-97-37.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:03 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:17 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:18 <@kanzure> i wonder if open hardware summit will ask makerbot to not be present 17:18 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:19 <@kanzure> hah "which means if you want real information about a given drug then the only way to get it is to subpoena the FDA, or read a book written by someone who has." 17:20 < brownies> kanzure: hey, so i was reading that instructables thing about "make your own PCR with 3 pieces of wood and a laser" or something 17:20 < brownies> kanzure: why don't people just make a bunch of those wee PCR machines and sell them? 17:21 <@kanzure> they do.. that's what openpcr is 17:21 <@kanzure> except they priced it at >$500 17:21 < brownies> but isn't it like $12 in parts? 17:21 <@kanzure> yes 17:21 < brownies> kanzure: isn't it open-source? why doesn't someone else just start selling it for $25? 17:22 < brownies> although i guess they have no shortage of people willing to pay http://openpcr.org/2012/06/alas-openpcr-is-pre-stocked/ 17:23 <@kanzure> do you really want to sit around procuring parts and packing boxes 17:23 -!- augur [~augur@c-98-218-127-183.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:23 < brownies> wait, they send it to you as a kit o.O you have to assemble it yourself like a jackass 17:24 <@kanzure> i think they were doing laser cut parts, so they were running a laser cutter all day or something 17:24 < brownies> kanzure: yeah, i guess i'd demand a 4000% profit margin for doing that, too. 17:24 <@kanzure> i agree with you that someone should do it, but i don't know if i like the numbers enough 17:24 < brownies> kanzure: yeah, that's the other thing. wtf @ the wood paneling! 17:25 < brownies> i'd like to see it done with some laser-cut aluminum, with a branding/logo lasered into the back 17:25 < brownies> sell the whole thing preassembled, shiny, and ready to go. 17:25 <@kanzure> i'm sure it can be chinified easily 17:25 <@kanzure> i'd be more interested in finding a chinese reverse engineering shop 17:25 -!- OldCoder_ [~OldCoder_@c-67-188-114-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:26 < brownies> kanzure: heh. i'm sure they're all busy ;) 17:26 <@kanzure> send them a unit -> get back 10 chinese knock-offs. 17:26 < hifrog> oh, ah... http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/09/pulsating-nanotube-spits-out-buckyballs/ 17:26 <@kanzure> but then you have quality issues and you have to teach them how to test it, and pay them to test it, etc. 17:26 < brownies> kanzure: more like... send them a unit ... get back 100 knock-offs... hope that 1 of them works. 17:26 -!- OldCoder [~OldCoder@c-67-188-114-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:27 <@kanzure> brownies: they're both in sf btw, josh and tito. josh is a software guy. 17:28 <@kanzure> if you wanted to, say, go talk to him. 17:28 < brownies> kanzure: might take you up on that later 17:28 < brownies> not sure what i'd talk about with him atm, other than "zomg get your branding together man" 17:29 <@kanzure> sure. 17:29 <@kanzure> i think lots of teachers were paying for it 17:29 <@kanzure> i'm not completely sure though, it's definitely out of the price range of teachers 17:33 -!- roksprok [~Zac@adsl-75-36-187-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: roksprok] 17:34 < brownies> yeah, that seems strange. you mean professors? 17:34 < brownies> there's no way in hell a teacher has $600 17:35 <@kanzure> no professors apparently get lab equipment via an initial career/lab grant from the university/NIH 17:36 -!- roksprok [~Zac@adsl-75-36-187-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:36 -!- roksprok [~Zac@adsl-75-36-187-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:36 <@kanzure> i could see a few biology teachers at a high school chipping in for one 17:36 <@kanzure> but certainly not a single teacher 17:36 <@kanzure> and, it's not exactly diybioers, because i hear almost nobody talking about their openpcr on diybio 17:37 <@kanzure> so who exactly is buying this junk? 17:37 < delinquentme> bc the cost? 17:37 <@kanzure> teachers are poor 17:38 < delinquentme> So like market fit right? 17:38 < delinquentme> who uses really niche versions of orbital shakers? 17:38 -!- OldCoder_ [~OldCoder_@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:38 < delinquentme> the easiest business model is PAY ME for shit 17:38 -!- OldCoder [~OldCoder@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:39 < delinquentme> but at the same time ... that market fit could turn that into pay me 10x 17:39 <@kanzure> what are you talking about 17:39 < delinquentme> cost on orbital shakers 17:39 < delinquentme> and how can I build out a niche product 17:39 <@kanzure> why 17:40 < delinquentme> $$ 17:40 <@kanzure> you've already demonstrated your inability to deliver prototypes or do marketing 17:40 < delinquentme> kanzure, fuck yourself 17:40 < delinquentme> sincerely 17:40 < delinquentme> dont ever say shit like that 17:40 <@kanzure> :\ so how is an orbital shaker different from the liquid handler though 17:40 < delinquentme> what do you mean 17:40 <@kanzure> i would prefer the liquid handling machine to suceed more than i'd care about an orbital shaker 17:41 <@kanzure> people asked you to show your prototype doing things and you refused 17:41 < delinquentme> yeah but I'm lacking the stack knowledge on how to put it together 17:41 <@kanzure> they were going to buy things from you, possibly 17:41 <@kanzure> what? you had it working i thought 17:41 < delinquentme> the 001 was a joke 17:41 < delinquentme> like it got pumping 17:41 < delinquentme> but not reliably 17:41 <@kanzure> i see. i didn't know this. 17:41 -!- OldCoder [~OldCoder@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:42 < delinquentme> I know that the shaker has value so like stepping in the direction is a smart move 17:42 -!- OldCoder_ [~OldCoder_@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:42 < delinquentme> and it gets me industry contacts 17:42 < delinquentme> I've got the materials sitting at my house to start building 17:42 < delinquentme> lasercut parts came in yesterday 17:42 < delinquentme> now i just need afew more screws off mcmaster 17:43 -!- OldCoder [~OldCoder@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:43 -!- OldCoder [~OldCoder@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:43 < delinquentme> the issue on the full on LH002 is that when people need to make revisions or add additional functionality 17:43 < delinquentme> I didn't have a solid solution for " how can I simply add another encoder here? " 17:43 < delinquentme> like it would require a redesign of the chips I was using ... which is dumb 17:44 < delinquentme> is I2c sufficiently fast to run a LH machine? 17:44 < delinquentme> IDK 17:44 < delinquentme> but that style protocol lends itself well to modularity 17:44 -!- OldCoder [~OldCoder@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 < delinquentme> YES the LH is more interesting ... but I know I can deliver on a shaker without an issue 17:44 < delinquentme> and move from there 17:45 < delinquentme> very soon I get to call the dude @ gilson up who shot me down 17:45 < delinquentme> and be like ' You should buy a few of these ' 17:45 -!- OldCoder_ [~OldCoder_@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:46 <@kanzure> ok so you were trying to get them to buy a thing that didn't exist 17:47 <@kanzure> that's a pretty good reason for them to not have given you money 17:47 < delinquentme> kanzure, stop being the asshole in the room with all the alleged answers 17:48 <@kanzure> that's a different story from what i thought you were pitching a few minutes ago. 17:48 < delinquentme> seriously theres a million variables and you're claiming to grok the specifics of how it want down 17:48 < delinquentme> went** 17:48 < delinquentme> and I dont follow 17:48 <@kanzure> yes, because of what you told me previously.. which turned out to be wrong. 17:48 <@kanzure> i was using the previous information to inform my statements about your orbital shaker marketing crusade. 17:50 <@kanzure> people don't just give you money without working demos. but as i've now learned, you weren't telling them that you had a working prototype. as long as you understand that the same rule applies for an orbital shaker, go for it. 17:51 < delinquentme> kanzure, clearly kickstarted doesnt work 17:51 < delinquentme> kickstarter* -- specifically people never. EVER. get $$ w/o working demos 17:51 < delinquentme> I mean like we could go on all night w shit like this ... but its just not productive 17:52 <@kanzure> you mean going on talking about kickstarter? 17:52 < delinquentme> in response to people don't just give you money without working demos. 17:53 <@kanzure> ok so you disagree with that? and that's why you would be talking about it all night? 17:56 < delinquentme> I mean ... 17:57 < delinquentme> OK heres a synopsis of the stack: 17:57 < delinquentme> humans = complex 17:57 < delinquentme> depending on who you're selling to .. different things will work 17:57 < delinquentme> yes there are major factors .. having a proto would be one of those ... but like say you've got the street cred .. youd probably not need a proto 17:58 <@kanzure> brownies: so on one of my paying gigs.. they started to put javascript in erb files while i was working on another thing. words can't explain my sadness right now. 17:58 < delinquentme> example w peter diamandis ... and the x prize ... he didn't have the product .. but he convinced people because he had convinced others to stand with him on it 17:59 < delinquentme> I mean I think you're intention is to help 17:59 < delinquentme> but! what I could really use help on is picking out specific markets 17:59 < delinquentme> I know " really big ass duty shakers " is a niche 17:59 < delinquentme> another niche im thinking exists is " slave this to another machine easily " 18:00 < delinquentme> robotic arm controlling a shaker has value 18:00 < delinquentme> X controlling a shaker .. has value 18:00 < delinquentme> temp controlled shakers .. are also a niche .. GE makes a killing on these things at like 4k a pop 18:03 < delinquentme> like its this kinda stuff with which I can put your knowledge to use ... sales I think I've got a decent hold on 18:03 <@kanzure> brownies: wait no it's even worse; binary data is being directly written into