--- Log opened Thu Nov 01 00:00:07 2012
--- Day changed Thu Nov 01 2012
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09:01 <@kanzure> "it's not human enhancement! it's human optimization!"
09:04 < archels> optimization is curing illness.
09:07 < strangewarp> sod enhancement, sod optimization, you shouldn't have to justify the desire to do odd things to yourself
09:09 < strangewarp> any system that calls itself "ethics", but which puts itself between a human and their attainable ideal, should be considered suspicious
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09:27 < jrayhawk> uhhhh huh
09:28 < jrayhawk> might i suggest reading Ominous Parallels so you might understand the practical results of such a philosophy
09:29 < jrayhawk> well, maybe not reading it. Reading it is probably not worth the effort. Skimming it, at least.
09:30 < strangewarp> Oh! You misunderstand. I mean that only in the context of improving the self, not forcing improvements on others.
09:31 < strangewarp> Also, don't think I mean "toward optimal conditions" when I say "improvement". I mean improvement as in: that which makes an individual more like the sort of person they want to be.
09:32 < jrayhawk> "not forcing on others" sounds like an ethic which puts itself between me and my attainable ideals of self-enhancement
09:33 < strangewarp> ...You seem to be collapsing the idea of personal improvement into the idea of improvement-of-others, to create a stacked deck that compares me to nazis? what?
09:34 < strangewarp> Also, this reminds me of the discussion on post-scarcity: "Post-scarcity will fulfill almost everyone's desires" "What if my desires are to use all available resources? Ha ha you lose"
09:36 < jrayhawk> Yes, when you suggest agency has primacy over ethics, you open yourself up to being called a Nazi. That was *the* philosophical construct that produced Naziism.
09:36 < jrayhawk> Along with most other catastrophic fascist states.
09:37 < strangewarp> Yes, but that was agency of the folk, not agency of the individual. And you seem to think that my insistence on the primacy of agency of the individual extends past the self, which it does not.
09:37 < strangewarp> er, agency of the construct of folk used as a nationalist parlour-trick*
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09:46 < strangewarp> Anyway, if you're trying to say the holocaust was caused by the lack of an overarcing systematized ethical system, I think you'll find that the Nazis were authoritarian enough to have manufactured their own overarcing "ethical" system - so it wasn't the primacy of agency over ethics, but rather the creation of a toxic system that called itself ethics, after they used the rhetoric of agency to come to power.
09:48 < jrayhawk> No, actually, they were specifically hostile towards ethics.
09:49 < strangewarp> Absolutely, I agree.
09:49 < jrayhawk> Ethics were seen as a weakness and a barrier to the supremecy of their will.
09:49 < jrayhawk> "mere rationality"
09:51 < strangewarp> ...I'm still not seeing how you're saying this is similar to a pluralist treatment of morphological freedom...
09:52 < jrayhawk> You seem to want Kantianism without the resulting Hegelism. Once you place agency ahead of ethics, then the question of which agency is best becomes a question of which agency is most able to collectivize and accumulate power.
09:52 < ParahSai1in> who's in for a liquid fluoride thorium reactor kickstarter?
09:53 < nmz787> whoo!
09:53 < jrayhawk> Fortunately the answer to this is usually Abrahamist institutions, which are an innoculation to that philosophy.
09:53 < jrayhawk> A sneaky, sneaky innoculation.
09:53 < nmz787> jrayhawk: strangewarp: what if there are just two types of people, with ethics, and without... then as ethical people we have to accept that and just try to do whatever we can
09:53 < foucist> ParahSai1in: actually, a coldfusion kickstarter might be neat
09:54 < jrayhawk> Actually, I basically do believe that.
09:54 < strangewarp> jrayhawk: That treatment of agency-before-ethics assumes that objective morality cannot be inferred, and furthermore, that situations without objective morality trend toward selfish brutality without a top-down ethical apparatus.
09:54 < nmz787> either to stay alive and our ethical kind (i.e. family, genetics), or to try and sway things in generally an ethical direction whenever we can
09:54 < ParahSai1in> foucist: i would have thought it would be easier to raise money for something that works with the physics we know
09:55 < strangewarp> Anyway, I was just trying to say that people should be free to do weird and artful things to their bodies without having to prove it has a beneficial purpose. Which I see as an anti-nazi tendency, if anything.
09:56 < jrayhawk> all actions have externalities
09:56 < strangewarp> jrayhawk: I'm assuming no obviously harmful externalities, like turning your heart into an atom bomb or anything.
09:57 < nmz787> strangewarp: what started this conversation? i didnt see the logs
09:57 < jrayhawk> 09:07 < strangewarp> sod enhancement, sod optimization, you shouldn't have to justify the desire to do odd things to yourself
09:57 < jrayhawk> 09:09 < strangewarp> any system that calls itself "ethics", but which puts itself between a human and their attainable ideal, should be considered suspicious
09:57 < jrayhawk> 09:25 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@107.63.73.255] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:58 < strangewarp> nmz787: I don't even know, it might have been a faulty grammar choice on my part? Or a terminology mismatch of some kind
09:58 < nmz787> oh
09:58 < nmz787> geexz
09:58 < nmz787> it was like 4 lines
09:58 < nmz787> :P
09:59 < foucist> ParahSai1in: erm, i meant polywell fusion
10:00 < nmz787> so it sounds like you're saying ethics is suspicious
10:00 < nmz787> consider the perspective of a jihadist
10:01 < nmz787> our ethics of 'hey don't car bomb yourself and bunch of women and kids' gets in their way
10:01 < nmz787> it ' puts itself between a human and their attainable ideal'
10:01 < strangewarp> The difference there is that jihad actively seeks to harm others, while extreme bodmods don't
10:02 < strangewarp> So the comparison doesn't really hold up
10:02 < nmz787> obviously the women and kids shouldn't die, but we generally think the jihadist should
10:02 < jrayhawk> once again, "do not harm others" is an ethic
10:02 < nmz787> so then ethics of jihad are different than ethics of bodymod?
10:03 < jrayhawk> it's also an impossible ethic; all actions have externalities and it's a question of degree and tradeoff
10:04 < jrayhawk> in performing self-surgery, i am taking a risk of invoking a political/medical apparatus of compulsory suffering by someone else
10:04 <@kanzure> nmz787: so wait, you have an account on gnusha but you choose to log in from another ip address?
10:05 < strangewarp> jrayhawk: I'm not saying discard ethics; I'm saying be suspicious of those attitudes that call themselves "ethics" but which wall off access to benign benefits.
10:05 < strangewarp> example: the anti-stem cell research freakout
10:05 < ParahSai1in> foucist: i havent been keeping up with fusion research as much as i should
10:05 < nmz787> kanzure: umm, you mean my IRC account? i use pidgin
10:06 <@kanzure> nmz787: you should try logging into irc from gnusha sometime.
10:06 < nmz787> kanzure: how come?
10:06 <@kanzure> because it's nice to have a persistent irc connection that you can come back to later
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10:06 < nmz787> ugh, but I'm in windows
10:07 < nmz787> i have some git bash installed
10:07 < nmz787> mingw32
10:07 <@kanzure> you probably have cygwin installed, which i believe installs ssh by default.
10:07 < ParahSai1in> interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Fusion
10:07 < nmz787> but i can't paste into it easily because its running in a MS cmd.exe prompt
10:07 <@kanzure> i think fenn is supposed to be our resident polywell expert but he's presently missing in action
10:07 < nmz787> yeah I have ssh there
10:07 < nmz787> but its a PITA to paste into
10:08 <@kanzure> nmz787: cygwin provides bash which is not the cmd.exe prompt
10:08 <@kanzure> i think.
10:08 < nmz787> hmm
10:08 < jrayhawk> yes, i am sure your interests could be much better served by eliminating all ethical constraints
10:08 < nmz787> jrayhawk: what are you up to today?
10:09 < nmz787> jrayhawk: these guys out said I could stop by, you'd be welcome to come I think http://norsam.com/about-us.html
10:09 < jrayhawk> Hmm. First of the month. Need to send out bills. Thursday. Maybe go into the office, but not sure if I care that much.
10:09 <@kanzure> you have an office?
10:09 <@kanzure> perhaps you mean your restroom
10:09 < jrayhawk> I call that the "outbox"
10:09 < foucist> jrayhawk: i think ethics is ultimately supposed to BENEFIT your interests
10:09 < foucist> i mean, good ethics is the ultimate selfish thing to do
10:10 < foucist> :P
10:10 < foucist> in the long term
10:10 < strangewarp> Right, I was a bit suspicious of the throwing of ethics and agency into a dichotomy, there
10:10 < jrayhawk> In whole-economy-optimizing decision-theory terms, yes. Machiavellianism is a much better selfish thing to do for personal-benefit game-theory terms.
10:11 < nmz787> jrayhawk: i see some press releases mentioning 'HP 2311x' or 'HP 2311xi'... but I can't tell if the i was dropped by the time sales started
10:11 < nmz787> supposed to be $170 IPS monitors
10:13 < nmz787> jrayhawk: also seems the cheapest beef at new seasons is $6/lb roast and $9 top sirloin steak, whole foods didn't have any better prices either
10:14 < jrayhawk> You can call up the Orenco Station one and work out when they're getting shipments of the grassfed ground beef in. Also, a lot of their stuff is in the back; they only have so much display room.
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10:16 < jrayhawk> Especially the offal
10:16 < nmz787> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824176198&Tpk=2311x
10:16 < nmz787> that doesn't explicitly say IPS
10:17 < nmz787> but they dont carry 2311xi
10:17 < nmz787> but then there's this http://www.amazon.com/2311xi-inch-Diagonal-Backlit-Monitor/dp/B008G32ZTM
10:18 < foucist> nmz787: remind me why ips is best?
10:18 < nmz787> but it only mentions IPS in the title
10:18 < nmz787> jrayhawk: remind foucist why IPS is the best
10:18 < foucist> what's the resolution on that monitor anyways?
10:18 < nmz787> foucist: i think there aren't black lines between the pixel
10:18 < foucist> linus was bitching about laptops not being all retina display by now
10:18 < nmz787> the crytals in the LCD are oriented in the plane of the screen
10:18 < jrayhawk> IPS has a wide viewing angle and no color distortion.
10:18 < nmz787> rather than perpendicular
10:19 < foucist> https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/ByVPmsSeSEG
10:19 < jrayhawk> directional color distortion, that is.
10:19 < nmz787> 23 in 1920x1080
10:20 < jrayhawk> http://www.google.com/search?q=catleap&tbm=shop is another option if you don't mind doing your own calibration and connector adaptation
10:20 < nmz787> so does the LCD get PWMed to change color?
10:20 < foucist> now that retina displays are coming out and shit, that's probably the way to go.. don't even accept anything less than 2400x  :P
10:21 < nmz787> jrayhawk: is catleap same as http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-ACHIEVA-Shimian-QH270-Lite-27-LED-Quad-HD-DVI-2560x1440-16-9-6ms-PC-Monitor-/110833856200
10:21 < jrayhawk> Probably.
10:22 < nmz787> ahh here, $180 says in plane switching http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009H0XQRS?t=slickdeals&tag=slickdeals
10:22 < nmz787> looks like it has a decent stand
10:23 < jrayhawk> also http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236205 $150
10:23 < nmz787> yeah but the catleap start at 27" right?
10:23 < nmz787> oO
10:23 < jrayhawk> Yeah.
10:23 < jrayhawk> Well, actually, they're only at 27"
10:24 < nmz787> and $350 shipped?
10:24 < jrayhawk> Something like that, yeah. If you happen to like having a boatload of pixels.
10:25 < nmz787> so TN vs IPS viewed mostly straight on would look comparable?
10:25 < nmz787> yeah i liked that it was higher than 1080 would be pretty sweet
10:25 < jrayhawk> At precisely the right distance, assuming the panel manufacturer calibrated their planes correctly
10:25 < nmz787> hmm
10:26 < nmz787> so i think i'm gonna go with that sceptre 1080p TV, 38.5" I did the math and the space in my living room could fit a 45" 16:9 but there aren't any of that size even used on craigslist in my price range and new enough
10:27 < nmz787> but keep looking at the IPS stuff for working on
10:28 < jrayhawk> I'm not really a big TV sort of guy, so I don't really have helpful advice.
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10:29 < jrayhawk> It's nice that LCDs are finally starting to compete with CRTs on a price/pixel basis, though.
10:30 < jrayhawk> I just wish the really competitive products were available for the PC market
10:30 < nmz787> well by TV i mean the monitor in the livingroom where I will watch video or show browse on the couch
10:51 < jrayhawk> re: norsam: Jules like optics; you could try dragging him along.
10:52 < nmz787> hmm, what's the oftc room?
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12:06 < archels> hrm, what's the tangle of proteins sticking out of the average cell membrane collectively called?
12:07 < archels> I thought it was calyx but now I can't find anything.
12:07 <@kanzure> integral membrane proteins?
12:07 < archels> collectively though
12:07 <@kanzure> no, that's inside the membrane
12:08 < archels> oh, extracellular matrix
12:08 <@kanzure> extracellular matrix is around the cell, it's not necessarily the shit attached to the cell
12:08 < archels> I see
12:08 <@kanzure> it's stuff like collagen and elastin
12:11 < archels> glycocalyx is the word that I was initially looking for
12:11 < archels> I guess that does not fit the definition perfectly either
12:12 <@kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripheral_membrane_protein
12:13 <@kanzure> that's probably inner-bound stuff though
12:22 < nmz787> well there are junction proteins
12:22 < nmz787> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_adhesion_molecules
12:22 < nmz787> integrins
12:22 < nmz787> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrins
12:22 < nmz787> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_junctions
12:23 <@kanzure> oh i called it 'integral'. i guess i was close to 'integrins'. sort of.
12:23 < nmz787> "There have been approximately 40 proteins identified to be involved in tight junctions. These proteins can be classified into four major categories; scaffolding proteins, signalling proteins, regulation proteins, and transmembrane proteins."
12:24 <@kanzure> well, there's probably a name for "all those receptor molecules on the surface of a cell"
12:24 < nmz787> i think cell surface protein, or 'surface proteome' could be a phrase
12:24 <@kanzure> haha surface proteome.. quick! get an NIH grant written!
12:24 < nmz787> heh http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpubmed%2F23081703&ei=aMySUOnoGJDMigKn64DoCw&usg=AFQjCNFx1TqZ66hqtj7sEB_6aJgQeHLP5g&sig2=HyOp_D3P9nDtqsf0LXzoHw
12:24 < nmz787> bah
12:24 < nmz787> the first google hit for surface proteome is re bull sperm
12:24 < nmz787> lol
12:25 < nmz787> thanks archels!
12:28 < archels> always glad to be of service
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13:14 < ParahSai1in> fuck i dont have any primers to order
13:15 < nmz787> yeah i only want to order genes
13:15 < nmz787> we could all order a bunch of primers and pool them gibson style
13:17 < ParahSai1in> only 40 base shit though
13:17 <@kanzure> well we could order obscene primers if that would make you guys feel better
13:17 <@kanzure> some sort of DDOS thing.
13:17 < ParahSai1in> have you ever done a gibson reaction with more than two different dna molecules?
13:18 < ParahSai1in> it pretty much makes garbage in my experience
13:18 < nmz787> i havent, but isnt more than 2 standard?
13:19 < ParahSai1in> you might have one colony that has chunks from all of your molecules
13:19 < ParahSai1in> and it will be jumbled around out of order
13:19 < ParahSai1in> often incomplete
13:20 < ParahSai1in> that would be hell to assemble a gene end to end from 40mers, but i guess at 2 cents per base, thats not terrible
13:24 < nmz787> you could just do it sequentially
13:24 < nmz787> with gel's in between checking the length
13:25 < archels> haha there's an IOP journal called "Nonlinearity"
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14:59 <@kanzure> bkero: i saw your question in #ikiwiki .. your best bet is to bug jrayhawk ;)
14:59 < bkero> jrayhawk: Hey
14:59 < jrayhawk> kanzure is everywhere
14:59 < jrayhawk> i suppose i should go look over there
14:59 <@kanzure> well his question was like a week ago
15:00 < jrayhawk> so many windows over
15:00 <@kanzure> 16:54 < bkero> Hi ikiwiki guys.  Have a question.  Why is the wiki repo post-update hook a binary?
15:00 <@kanzure> damn, that was oct 1
15:00 < bkero> haha yeah
15:01 < jrayhawk> '10:37 < bdale> if we want to modify a template set, can we store the templates in the same wiki as the content?
15:01 <@kanzure> bkero: diyhpl.us is just a giant ikiwiki farm
15:01 <@kanzure> a highly sophisticated ikiwiki farm, mind you
15:01 < jrayhawk> 10:38 < liw> man ikiwiki indicates "Templates can also be placed in the "templates/" subdirectory of the srcdir." so I assume yes
15:01 <@kanzure> by sophisticated i mean fart
15:01 < jrayhawk> 10:41 < keithp> that's too easy
15:01 < jrayhawk> 10:42 < liw> ikiwiki is not meant to be rocket science *ahem*
15:01 < bkero> Why is the update script a fscking x86 binary
15:01 < jrayhawk> that rocket science thing cracks me up
15:02 < jrayhawk> bkero: For the non-single-user case, it needs to be suid
15:03 < bkero> jrayhawk: that explains it. :(
15:03 < jrayhawk> Ikiwiki is meant to work with group-writable bare repos.
15:03 < bkero> I needed to modify it's behavior a bit
15:03 < bkero> which is hard if it's a binary
15:03 < jrayhawk> By the way, I have a terrifying git+ikiwiki hosting engine if you happen to be interested. http://piny.be/piny-hosting/
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15:14 < jrayhawk> I'm curious to hear why you want to modify it.
15:14 < jrayhawk> I've dug around a bit with Ikiwiki internals and things are actually pretty flexible.
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15:25 < bkero> paths I think it as
15:25 < bkero> was
15:25 < bkero> I can't remember right now, it was a month ago man, heh.
15:35 < nmz787> jrayhawk: what do you think about eating chicken skin?
15:37 < jrayhawk> Chicken has a pretty lousy lipid profile, collagen is handy stuff for tissue maintenance
15:39 < jrayhawk> if i were to eat a chicken, i would attempt to eat as much of the connective tissue as I could in order to avoid protein overload
15:40 < jrayhawk> the intestines get real unhappy when calories from protein get in excess of 40%, which is easy to do with chicken
15:45 < nmz787> ahh, well i'll make sure to balance the protein out with rice and tomato
15:45 < nmz787> ok, gonna throw away the skin then
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16:06 < jrayhawk> but the collagen :(
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16:28 < jrayhawk> bkero: fwiw all the paths are modifiable with setup-file configuration directives
16:28 < jrayhawk> if you have future ikiwiki problems, feel free to ping me
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16:34 < nmz787> jrayhawk: connective tissue is protein... so is collagen
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17:23 < jrayhawk> connective tissues (skin, joints) also have a lot of fat, along with having a lot of collagen.
17:24 < nmz787> but why separate collagen from other protein?
17:25 < jrayhawk> I don't separate it? I eat whle chickens, including organs and neck.
17:25 < jrayhawk> And especially bones.
17:25 < jrayhawk> Chicken bones are nice and easy to cook.
17:26 < jrayhawk> Though it's been a while since I've eaten a chicken. Like I said, lousy lipid profile, problematic macronutrient profile.
17:35 < brownies> what meat animal do you recommend
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17:37 < jrayhawk> pastured ruminant, ocean-caught fish/crustaceans/shellfish
17:49 < ParahSailin> i dont think joints have a lot of fat
17:58 < jrayhawk> They're a big part of collagen matrices.
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18:00 < jrayhawk> Elastic and reticular fibers are pretty fatty, fascia tends to be almost pure protein.
18:10 < AdrianG> how is chicken problematic macronutritionally
18:11 < jrayhawk> 15:40 < jrayhawk> the intestines get real unhappy when calories from protein get in excess of 40%, which is easy to do with chicken
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18:17 < ParahSailin> i havent noticed that at all
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18:22 < jrayhawk> I'm good friends with my bowel movements. We've gotten to know eachother pretty well.
18:23 < foucist> jrayhawk: a bit chunk of chicken breast is about what, 15 grams of protein?
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18:23 < foucist> s/bit/big
18:23 < foucist> a low carb diet isn't supposed to be high protein btw
18:24 < foucist> (if that's why you're going to 40%)
18:25 < jrayhawk> uh... the point is to avoid protein ratios that high
18:25 < jrayhawk> i am advocating for less protein
18:25 < foucist> yeah, the trick is to compensate with extra fat
18:26 < foucist> too much protein?  MOAR FAT
18:26 < foucist> unless it's a carb heavy diet
18:26 < jrayhawk> while I do have a five gallon bucket of saturated fat and usually a stockpile of rendered suet, I find it a lot easier to just eat quality foods.
18:26 < foucist> i'm advocating quality fats
18:27 < jrayhawk> chicken is not quality fat.
18:27 < foucist> olive oil, macadamia nut oil, coconut oil
18:54 < AdrianG> is human rendered fat healthy
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19:47 < skorket> kanzure, are you still working on the laser cutter?
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20:07 <@kanzure> skorket: not at the moment
20:08 < skorket> as in right this second or in life?
20:09 <@kanzure> uh that's a hard question to answer
20:09 <@kanzure> not every waking moment is me thinking about it
20:10 < skorket> any progress?
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20:13 <@kanzure> yes! we reached a big milestone the other day when nate finally settled down somewhere.
20:13 < skorket> ah, still in the process of moving
20:13 < skorket> or at least, just stopped that process
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21:37 < nmz787> jrayhawk: but earlier you specifically mentioned the skin having collagen, but also that protein overload was easy with chicken
21:47 <@kanzure> does anyone have a first/last name word list?
21:47 <@kanzure> preferably with a few thousand entries each
21:51 < ParahSailin> census.gov
22:15 < nmz787> jrayhawk: well i was just thinking that the ECM would be higher amino acid % wise than muscle, so that would also mean less phosphorous and other stuff... so maybe that's the stuff that you can actually overload on?
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 02 00:00:13 2012