--- Log opened Tue Nov 06 00:00:17 2012
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03:02 < pasky> http://www.dreaming-robots.com/
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03:24 < pasky> http://lesswrong.com/lw/e79/ai_timeline_prediction_data/
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09:21 < fenn> We regret having to add this extra step for our subscribers, but have found it necessary due to systematic automated downloading of our content
09:22 < fenn> so glad you can promote free inquiry
09:22 < fenn> how's that mother of all paperz torrent coming along?
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09:22 < fenn> trying to get "Photoactivation of 180Tam and Its Implications for the Nucleosynthesis of Nature's Rarest Naturally Occurring Isotope"
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10:34 < curt1s> hmm what should i make for erection night dinner
10:34 < fenn> go away
10:35 < curt1s> so you guys enjoy having a dead channel?
10:36 < curt1s> rather than actual chat
10:36 < curt1s> i see.
10:36 < nmz787> this channel isnt dead
10:39 < curt1s> maybe not. but it might be another 8 hours before anyone else pipes up
10:39 < fenn> it only looks dead because of all the lurkers and their crappy internet connections
10:39 < fenn> 58 nicks who the hell are these people
10:39 < curt1s> good question
10:40 < curt1s> anytime i check in, it's the kanzure show
10:40 < curt1s> not that theres anything wrong with that...just sayin
10:40 < nmz787> kanzure is a pretty good show
10:41 < curt1s> sure
10:41 < curt1s> i enjoy it
10:41 < fenn> one of these days he'll find all the hidden cameras and sail off the edge of the world
10:43 < fenn> hrmph. back to metastable helium
10:43 < curt1s> nmz787: im here because of the talk you gave at genspace some weeks back
10:43 < curt1s> appreciated it enormously
10:43 < nmz787> curt1s: cool! thanks!
10:44 < fenn> what was the talk about?
10:44 < nmz787> were you in the audience or did you see it digitally?
10:44 < curt1s> yeah i was there
10:44 < nmz787> DNA and its synthesis
10:44 < nmz787> mainly
10:44 < nmz787> its on kanzure's youtube channel
10:44 < curt1s> i didnt say hi or hang out afterwards or anything
10:44 < nmz787> because a 20 second simpsons clip got be a copyrigth strike on youtube, so i can't upload >15 mins videos
10:44 < curt1s> haha
10:46 < nmz787> well curt1s i've been busy unpacking here in oregon
10:46 < nmz787> which is why i havent been around to chat
10:46 < nmz787> but actually i have to run to talk to a guy about renting lab space
10:46 < curt1s> oh nice
10:47 < curt1s> good luck :)
10:47 < nmz787> what's your background curt1s?
10:48 < nmz787> ahh well I g2g, will talk more later, hope you stick around curt1s
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10:49 < curt1s> yeah ill be here. definitely chat soon
10:49 < curt1s> whoops :P
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13:38 < Romney2012> Obama is coming for your guns, then your houses, then your lives
13:39 < ThomasEgi> for monologues , please redirect all messages to /dev/null
13:39 < strangewarp> [14:39] Romney2012 is ~tb36@75-105-12-23.cust.wildblue.net kneemailbigger
13:39 < strangewarp> [14:39] Romney2012 on ##hplusroadmap
13:39 < strangewarp> [14:39] Romney2012 using wolfe.freenode.net Manchester, England
13:39 < strangewarp> [14:39] Romney2012 idle 20, signed on Mon Nov 05 23:48:36 2012
13:40 < strangewarp> [14:39] -NickServ- romney2012 is not registered.
13:40 < strangewarp> zzzz
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14:01 < foucist> i'm not sure if he was pro-romney or pro-obama
14:02 < foucist> 'coming for your guns' is actually a plus in my book
14:02 < foucist> i don't want my stupid fucking guns
14:04 < uf6667> cumming on your guns
14:04 < foucist> :D
14:05 < uf6667> I don't want anyone to cum on my guns
14:05 < ThomasEgi> eew..
14:05 < uf6667> showered already today
14:06 < ThomasEgi> but yeah. i feel a lot more comfortable if the people around me are not armed.
14:06 < uf6667> me too
14:06 < uf6667> people argue that this would lead to only criminals having guns
14:06 < ThomasEgi> it's like.. a good fistfight might get you in hospital. but a gunfight will get you 6feet under
14:06 < uf6667> which is retarded really
14:06 < uf6667> yeah
14:06 < uf6667> dancing is OK, though I don't like it
14:06 < ThomasEgi> i'm not worried about criminal with guns.
14:06 < uf6667> but taking a life is not cool
14:07 < ThomasEgi> they have them anyway. like the police and the others
14:07 < uf6667> criminals with guns don't exist once you remove them
14:07 < ThomasEgi> if someone wants to have a gun. he'll have one. my problem is that it i prefer to have as few as possible. and if idiots are legally allowed to carry guns. i feel unsave
14:08 < uf6667> exactly
14:08 < ThomasEgi> i don't really feel threated by people who carry guns altho it is illegal because those usualy have a use for it other than shooting me for fun and stupidity
14:08 < uf6667> in my country, there isn't much gun-related crime
14:08 < uf6667> mostly just stupid fucks driving drunk
14:08 < uf6667> crashign their precious R8s
14:09 < ThomasEgi> hehe.. i'm fine with those as long as they don't injure others
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14:09 < uf6667> me too
14:09 < ThomasEgi> crashing their expensive car is good for economy after all
14:09 < uf6667> they don't often injure others
14:09 < uf6667> but one time some cunt almost ran into me
14:09 < uf6667> I drive a small car and those cunts like to brag
14:09 < uf6667> so they'll tailgate you and stuff like that
14:10 < uf6667> I just took the first exit
14:10 < ThomasEgi> hehe.. that sux.. altho i know one car where it's fun to be tailgated
14:10 < uf6667> I think a few days later he died, I'm not sure though
14:10 < uf6667> cause it WAS his car
14:10 < ThomasEgi> well.. life fast, die young they say?
14:11 < Urchin[Emacs]> crashed cars are good for body shop workers
14:11 < Urchin[Emacs]> though stupid clients can be lethal
14:12 < ThomasEgi> well i drove one car where it was really fun. an old slow pickup. driving uphill it blew so much smoke out of the exhaust pipe that you could no longer read the license plate of the car behind you
14:12 < ThomasEgi> so... having a cabriolet behind you was really fun..
14:12 < uf6667> lol
14:12 < Urchin[Emacs]> lol
14:12 < ThomasEgi> they backed of hundrets of meters
14:12 < ThomasEgi> once it started to go uphill
14:13 < ThomasEgi> best bout that car. it was from a nature-reservat-area
14:13 < ThomasEgi> had logos un the side that read something like "protecting nature - on duty" or so.
14:15 < ThomasEgi> also fun. fixing hiking trails. where i had to drive through the forest with no roads.. crossing other hiking trails.. and the faces of people when suddenly, out of the bushes, a pickup cuts their way. with 2 young people standing on the back shouting "pedal to the metal!" and stuff
14:15 < ThomasEgi> priceless.
14:16 < ThomasEgi> sry.. where did i left the discussion... suiciding rich assholes right.
14:17 < uf6667> good thing audi and co make their cars so safe
14:17 < uf6667> makes natural selection harder
14:20 < ThomasEgi> funny when you think about it.. that electronic that stabelises the car.. if you hack it. you can make cars drift out of corners easily.
14:21 < ThomasEgi> but then.. no electronic system will save you when you hit a tree with 200km/h
14:21 < ThomasEgi> it'll just rip your entire car into pieces.
14:23 < Urchin[Emacs]> afaik, audi usually has a powerful engine with bad brakes
14:24 < Urchin[Emacs]> the other way around is better for survivability
14:24 < Urchin[Emacs]> and that would be Mercedes, typically
14:25 < ThomasEgi> breakes won't help you at some point
14:27 < uf6667> really?
14:27 < uf6667> I thought audi is very safe
14:27 < uf6667> just like volvo
14:28 < ThomasEgi> modern cares are all comparebly safe. if you drive them reasonably
14:29 < ThomasEgi> collisions up to 70km/h there is pretty much no danger to you.
14:29 < uf6667> I think you meant seat
14:29 < uf6667> seat, as I remember, has really shit brakes
14:29 < uf6667> also not so good traction
14:31 < ThomasEgi> long story short. speed kills. no matter what car.
14:33 < uf6667> yes
14:33 < uf6667> I like living :)
14:33 < uf6667> but at the same time, I want a car that has "drug dealer" written all over it
14:34 < uf6667> like a big fat mercedes
14:34 < uf6667> black one
14:34 < uf6667> that'd be awesome
14:36 < jrayhawk> Seat shares platforms and parts with other VAG cars, especially brakes.
14:36 < jrayhawk> Brake safety is not really a modern issue unless you think of various types of traction control as 'safety'
14:39 < jrayhawk> There's a fair amount of manufacturer differentiation in braking logic, but it's rare to have a car with an engine that seriously effects braking distance.
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14:39 < jrayhawk> I think it was Car and Driver that did full-throttle braking tests and found that they were pretty much the same as neutral braking tests.
14:40 < jrayhawk> Except for some stupid small-time muscle car, though I can't remember which
14:40 < jrayhawk> maybe a GT500
14:41 < jrayhawk> oh, no, it was a Roush
14:41 < jrayhawk> huh, i would've expected better from roush
14:42 < jrayhawk> http://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-deal-with-unintended-acceleration
14:45 < ThomasEgi> i wouldn't really call electronic stabilisation "braking logic"
14:46 < ThomasEgi> it's more like a beast of simulatios running and estimationg what's probably the most useful thing to do with your car at any given point in time.
14:46 < ThomasEgi> most of the time. it does a better job than what the driver does, or would do.
14:47 < jrayhawk> A lot of the systems cut in too early and eagerly.
14:47 < ThomasEgi> hardly.
14:47 < ThomasEgi> they usualy do a great jop keeping your car on the road. or controllable.
14:47 < jrayhawk> Like staying underneath the dynamic/static hysterisis threshold entirely rather than manipulating traction within it.
14:47 < ThomasEgi> but they too, are bound to the laws of physics
14:48 < ThomasEgi> jrayhawk, a car is not static.
14:48 < ThomasEgi> unless you parked it.
14:48 < jrayhawk> static/dynamic friction.
14:48 < ThomasEgi> you mean slip?
14:48 < jrayhawk> I mean static and dynamic friction.
14:49 < ThomasEgi> probably a mismatch of terms here.
14:49 < jrayhawk> No.
14:49 < ThomasEgi> like rolling friction and sliding?
14:51 < ThomasEgi> anyway i sorta have the feeling we think of the same thing with different terms
14:51 < ThomasEgi> there'? no real threshold between those 2 anyway. more like a fluid transition.
14:51 < jrayhawk> 'hysterisis'
14:52 < jrayhawk> er, hysteresis
14:52 < jrayhawk> I can spell, I swear.
14:52 < ThomasEgi> and modern break systems try their best to find the best combination between beeing able to control your car, and keeping break distance short.
14:52 < ThomasEgi> it works very good.
14:52 < jrayhawk> That's how I *wish* it would work.
14:52 < jrayhawk> In reality, most of them stay under that hysteresis threshold.
14:53 < ThomasEgi> the only case where it does a slightly worse job than without electronics is when breaking on sand and snow, where a small cone of material increases friction in front of the wheel.
14:53 < ThomasEgi> there is no "hysteresis" or threshold.
14:53 < ThomasEgi> as i said. fluid transition.
14:54 < jrayhawk> No.
14:54 < ThomasEgi> those systems kick in very late tho.
14:54 < ThomasEgi> when you are nearing the limits of "without electronic the car would start to move in a direction it should not"
14:55 < ThomasEgi> so. those systems are really designed for emergency drive situations.
14:55 < ThomasEgi> in every-day-driving situations they usualy don't do anything at all.
14:55 < ThomasEgi> except for making sure your breaks are dry and ready do be used
14:57 < ThomasEgi> the really spectacuar thing about those stabilisation systems is.. how nonspectacular they are in action.
14:58 < jrayhawk> I guess that must be the reason that modern systems are so bad; avoiding dramatic behaviors.
14:58 < ThomasEgi> hehe true.
14:59 < ThomasEgi> i've been on a test track from TRW (the guys who build those system)
14:59 < ThomasEgi> had the pleasure of taking a seat in one of their test cars.
14:59 < ThomasEgi> watching from outside you are like "omg.. that car's so going to crash"
15:00 < ThomasEgi> and when you sit inside.. all you think is.. hm.. ok that.. was a sharp corner, they could make those seats more comfortable.
15:00 < ThomasEgi> and the driver really pushed it.
15:01 < ThomasEgi> but really. as a user. it's almost impossible to tell when the system is active and when not.
15:01 < jrayhawk> Depends on the system. I have yet to be in a good one, but I'm willing to believe they exist.
15:02 < jrayhawk> Car reviewers claim they do, at least. I guess they would know better than me.
15:02 < ThomasEgi> might be just my experience. those cars we drove around with were rather high-class cars.
15:02 < ThomasEgi> but .. all of them on the market
15:02 < jrayhawk> Most of the systems I've gotten pissed off at have been in low-end cars.
15:02 < ThomasEgi> not every car is equiped with all mechanisms tho.
15:03 < ThomasEgi> especially low end cars usaly only have a very basic version. not very well tuned. they do add some safety but yeah
15:03 < ThomasEgi> mostly to comply with the legal requirements.
15:03 < ThomasEgi> it's like.. ok, it does fulfil the required parametrs, it breaksm, it doesnt knock over, it remains on track. let's ship it.
15:04 < ThomasEgi> while the more expensive cars it goes more like "ok, the car fulfils all requirements, but.. it doesn't feel like what we want our car to feel like"
15:04 < ThomasEgi> and then they tune parameters for ages.
15:04 < ThomasEgi> until the car "feels right"
15:05 < ThomasEgi> which usualy means the driver feels like he's the most professional driver on earth cause his car remains stable and on-track even if he drives totaly reckless.
15:05 < jrayhawk> The Mercedes ones are actually ones I hear a lot of complaints about from car reviewers, but I'm guessing that's 'staying-under-the-threshold-of-hysteresis-to-make-things-smooth' as alluded to earlier.
15:05 < ThomasEgi> and.. low end cars are like "omg shit,, that felt like i'm just was about to die"
15:06 < ThomasEgi> as i said. there is no throshold or hysteresis.
15:06 < ThomasEgi> just hundrets of parameters. if you tweak them right. the car feels smooth to drive
15:06 < ThomasEgi> even if you are a brink away from drifting off the road
15:07 < jrayhawk> The high threshold of static friction is higher than the low threshold of dynamic friction.
15:07 < jrayhawk> Thus, hysteresis.
15:07 < ThomasEgi> i .. hate to repeat myself.
15:07 < ThomasEgi> but.. it aint as easy as textbooks suggests
15:08 < jrayhawk> That window still exists.
15:08 < ThomasEgi> the actual force you can transfer using a wheel+ground combination is a lot more complex function
15:08 < ThomasEgi> mostly depending on "slip"
15:08 < jrayhawk> Yes, but that window still exists and is still deeply significant.
15:08 < ThomasEgi> and highly depending conditions.
15:08 < ThomasEgi> true. there is a window of optimal operation.
15:09 < ThomasEgi> but most of the time. you don't even get near that.
15:09 < ThomasEgi> for normal driving. that's usualy only the case in emergency situaitons
15:09 < jrayhawk> Ha ha, you apparently have never driven with me :P
15:09 < ThomasEgi> i said for "normal" driving
15:09 < ThomasEgi> as i said. i did experience the ride on that test track, and those guys really pused it.
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15:10 < ThomasEgi> what was the original discussion anyway?
15:10 < ThomasEgi> reckless rich guys crashing their R8?
15:11 < jrayhawk> 14:23 < Urchin[Emacs]> afaik, audi usually has a powerful engine with bad brakes
15:11 < ThomasEgi> oh.. hehe. no.
15:11 < ThomasEgi> they have good brakes. but.. the brakes arent the problem really. all brakes can block the wheel in worst case. no need for stronger ones.
15:11 < jrayhawk> Yeah.
15:11 < ThomasEgi> the rest. is how you controll them.
15:11 < ThomasEgi> and audi has rather good control over them.
15:13 < jrayhawk> i wonder if that's a VAG system or a Bosch system
15:13 < jrayhawk> i would prefer Bosch stay the hell away from my brakes
15:13 < ThomasEgi> hm... not sure.
15:14 < jrayhawk> i mean, even if i weren't an obsessive perfectionist asshole about technique
15:14 < ThomasEgi> personally . i would wouldn't use bosch for braking systems either.
15:15 < ThomasEgi> but that's because a guy i once worked with is now working for bosch.
15:15 < ThomasEgi> and he's flat out stupid.
15:16 < jrayhawk> Well, Lucas is out of business, so where else will incompetents go?
15:18 < ThomasEgi> hm.
15:18 < ThomasEgi> we still have microsof
15:18 < jrayhawk> And I suppose antilock systems do much, much better than a standard mechanical balancing system can on highly dynamic surfaces like leaves, patchy ice/snow, natural terrains, etc.
15:18 < ThomasEgi> and the apple-maps guys
15:18 < ThomasEgi> jrayhawk, correct
15:18 < ThomasEgi> especially since such a system can break individual wheels.
15:19 < jrayhawk> Yeah. That's the big key.
15:19 < ThomasEgi> which does help a lot to keep the car controllable
15:28 < jrayhawk> It'd be fun to have a three-degree-of-freedom pedal for brake balance.
15:28 < jrayhawk> I wonder if the F1 world ever tried that.
15:29 < ThomasEgi> why would they?
15:29 < jrayhawk> Electronic assists got banned.
15:30 < ThomasEgi> doubt tha'd give any noticable advantage
15:30 < jrayhawk> Yeah, flat tarmac is pretty predictable.
15:31 < jrayhawk> I guess it'd be a bigger deal in rallying, but they have electronic assists, there.
15:32 < jrayhawk> Though, I guess, there's a lot of predictive crazy slip operations they do, so maybe...
15:33 < jrayhawk> like Scandanavian flicks and what not to get tires oriented the way they want before hitting ruts, and whatnot.
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18:24 < fenn> aha i found the paper on www.hafniumisomer.org
18:24 < fenn> thank the laird for hoarders
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21:24 < strangewarp> LEGAL WEED BITCHES
21:24 < strangewarp> AAAAaaaaaaaa
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--- Log closed Wed Nov 07 00:00:18 2012