--- Log opened Thu Nov 08 00:00:04 2012
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08:01 < foucist> yippee kay yay
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08:29 < Maluseth1> can someone give me a list of equipments needed for a fab lab
08:29 < Maluseth1> i think i can convince my grandma to buy me some stuff :)
08:36 < Maluseth1> how can i buy a laser cutter + cnc milling machine cheap?
08:36 < Maluseth1> (as possible)
08:36 < Maluseth1> if i can buy it i will post up pictures here!
08:36 < Maluseth1> and my uses
08:37 < Maluseth1> i'll learn to use it
08:55 < Maluseth1> so reading this book, it says i need:
08:55 < Maluseth1> 3D printer, Laser cutter, CNC milling machine.
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09:23 < Maluseth1> can plasma cutter do everything laser cutters can do?
09:24 < ThomasEgi> iirc. plasma is a great option for metals. not sure how far you'll get with non metallic materials
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09:53 < fenn> Maluseth1: see http://gnusha.org/skdb/ "typical fablab inventory" and also http://makerspace.com/maker-news/makerspace-playbook
09:54 < fenn> you don't "need" any particular set of tools, it's just some are more fun to play with than others
09:55 < fenn> plasma is higher power, can cut through half inch steel, makes more noise and dust and electrical interference, can only cut conductive materials
09:55 < fenn> laser is clean quiet and can do finer detailed work such as engraving or drilling holes in circuit boards
09:56 < fenn> as for "what do i need to print circuit boards" all you need is a laser printer and a clothes iron
09:56 < fenn> google "toner transfer technique"
09:57 < fenn> small chinese laser cutters are so cheap these days..
09:57 < fenn> i wonder if they're worth the hassle
09:58 < fenn> also, Maluseth1 there's a big difference between a PCB mill (etching machine really) and a true CNC milling machine designed for cutting metal
09:58 < fenn> about a thousand pounds of difference
10:00 < ThomasEgi> milling pcb's hardly makes sense. it's quite expensive and wears down mill bits like crazy
10:01 < ThomasEgi> only application where it is somewhat tollerable are when you only have a single board ever manufactored. or for HF applications where you need propper trace profiles.
10:03 < fenn> i agree, milling pcb's is dumb
10:04 < ThomasEgi> in most cases,yes.
10:04 < ThomasEgi> exceptions apply. as always
10:04 < fenn> i think my favorite approach is direct inkjet mask followed by etch and then laser cut/drill
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10:05 < fenn> so the idea for 45 degree trace sides is to prevent capacitive coupling? why does the angle matter? i don't get it
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10:09 < ThomasEgi> sharp corners lead to peaks in the current distribution in a trace
10:09 < ThomasEgi> which can lead to electromigration.
10:10 < ThomasEgi> road as.. too much current on a sharp corner will eat a hole into your trace.
10:17 < fenn> oh, skin effect
10:17 < fenn> can't you selectively etch off the corners somehow?
10:18 < fenn> i've read about electropolishing but seems that would be difficult with so many conductors on a board
10:18 < ThomasEgi> it's not the skin effect
10:19 < ThomasEgi> it's more like. electrons cutting the corner
10:19 < fenn> is the problem inside corners or outside corners?
10:19 < ThomasEgi> inside
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10:19  * klafka_ pokes kanzure
10:19 < klafka_> wow he's not here
10:19 < klafka_> thsi feels soo wrong
10:20 < fenn> gnusha went down yesterday and i guess kanzure is fighting zombies in a cabin in the woods or something
10:20 < archels> http://www.mauve.plus.com/opensourcehw.txt
10:20 < archels> where the fuck is kanzure
10:21 < Dr_Science> pinky stuck in urethra
10:21 < Dr_Science> (Again)
10:21 < fenn> brb
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10:36 < ThomasEgi> fenn, http://images.elektroda.net/60_1247376886.jpg
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11:15 < klafka_> aah
11:17 < fenn> i still don't get why it matters what shape the outside corner is
11:18 < fenn> also you can just etch a fillet on the inside corner? (in 2d artwork)
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11:33 < nmz787> ThomasEgi: you around?
11:33 < ThomasEgi> sure
11:34 < nmz787> ThomasEgi: saw you talking cars with jrayhawk, a friend who is an auto engineer is looking to send around his resume
11:34 < nmz787> I guess he's tired of Delphi
11:34 < ThomasEgi> so.. what would i have to do with this?
11:35 < nmz787> my friend just asked if i knew anyone in auto industry that I could forward his resume to
11:35 < nmz787> and i was just reading the logs
11:35 < nmz787> :P
11:36 < nmz787> Maluseth1: you there?
11:36 < ThomasEgi> nmz787, well in that case.. i'm not in the auto industry at all.
11:38 < nmz787> :D ok
11:39 < nmz787> ThomasEgi: that electron density diagram you posted for fenn, what would you call that instead of 'electron density diagram'?
11:39 < nmz787> http://images.elektroda.net/60_1247376886.jpg
11:39 < nmz787> that one
11:40 < nmz787> i've wondered about that sort of image for things like capillary electrophoresis
11:40 < nmz787> basically ions migrating due to the e-field
11:40 < ThomasEgi> hm in this case. it is ions getting pushed around by a massive rush of electrons
11:40 < nmz787> but if I wanted to have a folded channel for those ions, what would the ideal corner be?
11:41 < ThomasEgi> round
11:41 < nmz787> i imagine like cars on a track, the ions with a tighter radius would make it through the curve faster
11:41 < ThomasEgi> in early days of pcb designing. people used hand drawn acrs
11:41 < nmz787> so I may need to have as many Right turns as Left to keep the ions in line by the time they got to the end of the trace/channel
11:41 < ThomasEgi> with computer aided design, arcs are possible but a bit ... well not so easy to compute. lines are by far simpler.
11:42 < ThomasEgi> and 45degree angles turned out to be ok-enough for most applications.
11:44 < ThomasEgi> it is not like a 90 degree corner will go bad just like that. but the risk that it will take damage under worst-case operation is a lot higher than that of 2x45
11:45 < ThomasEgi> so.. it established as good practice to use 45 degree angles. another point where current density can ruin your day are vias.
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11:51 < nmz787>  cause they're basically 90 degrees?
11:51 < nmz787> (vias)
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11:51 < ThomasEgi> shar angle, and often an even smaller area for conductance. there are entire studies around vias
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16:25 < Maluseth1> fenn: thank you for the reference. I am researching it right now.
16:26 < Maluseth1> it looks like they have similar functions..
16:26 < Maluseth1> i think i fundamentally need: laser cutter (if i can afford it), 3D printer, CNC milling machine, 3D scanner.
16:27 < Maluseth1> what is the difference between a CNC router and a CNC milling machine anyway
16:27 < Maluseth1> My grandma is kinda rich
16:27 < Maluseth1> hehe :)
16:27 < Maluseth1> but - i have to convince her that this is good for me
16:27 < Urchin> what are you trying to do?
16:27 < Maluseth1> i want to build a fab lab and build things
16:27 < Maluseth1> brb
16:34 < fenn> first, decide what you want to build
16:34 < fenn> then decide if it makes sense to buy the tool or just contract out the work
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16:38 < Maluseth1> yes i have a vague idea but mostly impractical. it's my grandma's money that i am thinking to spend it so much...
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16:39 < Maluseth1> right now thinking electronics programming + metal shells, plastic gears for toys :)
16:39 < fenn> blegh
16:39 < fenn> i wish i could point you at a list of useful things to do
16:39 < uf6667> Maluseth1: I would suggest getting stem cells
16:39 < uf6667> and electrodes
16:39 < uf6667> fucking awesome stuff
16:39 < Maluseth1> electrodes? stuff that goes on glass panels?
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16:40 < fenn> uf6667: what are you suggesting exactly?
16:40 < uf6667> I'm suggesting you grow a brain
16:40 < uf6667> around electrodes
16:40 < Maluseth1> how do you go about making an lcd anyway? can you print the electrodes directly onto the glass by using inkjet?
16:40 < uf6667> so that you can probe those fuckers
16:40 < fenn> hah
16:40 < uf6667> that shit would be AWESOME
16:40 < uf6667> even nanotubes in there
16:40 < Maluseth1> i am trying to grow a brain hahaha
16:40 < fenn> i think warwick has a little robot like that
16:40 < uf6667> man that shit would be amazing
16:41 < Maluseth1> in me though. not outside
16:41 < Maluseth1> i dont think brains can live outside the body not with todays technology
16:41 < uf6667> got someone with shizophrenia and not sure if it's a MAO related issue? no problem, grow his brain on a stick with nanotubes n shit
16:41 < fenn> sure they can, just need lots of antibiotics
16:41 < uf6667> Maluseth1: using cerebral fluid it can
16:41 < uf6667> it's how it survives in your cranium
16:41 < Maluseth1> fenn: i will update as i go thank you for your suggestions - im making a blog.
16:42 < Maluseth1> my grandma wants to support me as much as possible, if there be a good reason. and i think this is it.
16:42 < uf6667> Maluseth1: do you have any degree?
16:42 < Maluseth1> i want to be a chemist but this mechanical engineering stuff is amazing too
16:42 < fenn> perhaps you should be an analytical chemist
16:42 < Maluseth1> no... i'm 19 and i just got out of school
16:43 < uf6667> maybe you could become a pharmacist
16:43 < Maluseth1> i'm thinking chemical engineering
16:43 < Maluseth1> so that i connect to all areas and industries
16:43 < Maluseth1> like chemistry connects everything right?
16:43 < fenn> well see, analytical chemistry involves lots of "stuff" that you generally have to hack on to make it do exactly what you want
16:43 < Maluseth1> biochem organic chem, material chem
16:44 < Maluseth1> minerals, metallogy
16:44 < fenn> where said stuff is made of metal and electronics and chemical solutions
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16:44 < Maluseth1> oh
16:44 < Maluseth1> i wonder how chemical engineering compares to that
16:44 < fenn> chemical engineering is boring, just lots of spreadsheets
16:45 < brownies> occasionally a graph
16:45 < brownies> but always a very boring graph.
16:45 < Maluseth1> ooooo spreadsheets :)
16:45 < Maluseth1> hehe
16:45 < Maluseth1> i see so it's like data crunching
16:45 < Maluseth1> lots of things to memorize
16:45 < fenn> today i was reading about crossed tunable dye laser spectrometers
16:45 < brownies> i studied chem e for a year or so. i assure you that "crunching" is far too exciting of a word.
16:45 < fenn> for measuring the lamb shift
16:46 < Maluseth1> o
16:47 < fenn> really the worst thing you could do is go to school as a student
16:47 < brownies> oh, here comes the anti-college hype -_-
16:47 < fenn> whatever, been there, done that, big fucking waste of time and money
16:47 < fenn> "but it makes me FEEL good!"
16:48 < brownies> generally only for you, for the bitter dropouts, and for the fools who majored in useless things
16:48 < brownies> broadly speaking, it can be very useful.
16:48 < fenn> i don't think molecular biology is useless
16:48 < fenn> i just learned more on my own outside of class
16:48 < Maluseth1> yeah to be honest it's hard and my mind is all over the places i can't make the grade. but if i focus and learn in my own way, i am sure i'll eventually know everything there is to the topic then i might go back to school.
16:48 < brownies> right, i meant those as 3 different categories.
16:49 < brownies> well, if you want to major in, say, experimental physics, you're not going to get far without a university
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16:49 < fenn> agreed
16:49 < fenn> i'm actually thinking about going to grad school for experimental physics :(
16:49 < fenn> i wish it weren't set up this way
16:49 < brownies> by the time you get over to the more abstract end of the spectrum -- say, math -- it becomes a lot more important the nature of the specific people and department at a given university
16:49 < brownies> set up what way?
16:50 < fenn> but then how am i going to accumulate smart physics people in my cult compound in the desert?
16:50 < fenn> the world is structured such that there's no (meaningful) independent experimental physics culture
16:51 < fenn> either it's mega corporation r&d lab, or mega university
16:51 < Maluseth1> physics = money. research follows money. i think.
16:52 < Maluseth1> not the other way around.
16:52 < Maluseth1> then more independent experimental physics
16:52 < Maluseth1> far from theories
16:52 < Maluseth1> would be nice to see that happening to every individual
16:52 < Maluseth1> then the world would be an interesting place
16:53 < fenn> hrm i could swear there was a short story called "chlorinating the moderator" about some nerd utopia where people built nuclear reactors in the conference hotel swimming pool
16:53 < Maluseth1> hehe i talk like i know something i dont
16:54 < Maluseth1> must have had connections in the first place to do that
16:54 < Maluseth1> you need special ingredients
16:54 < Maluseth1> im guessing
16:54 < brownies> that all sounds like a terrible idea.
16:54 < fenn> ah i found it, but i can't copy the url because dillo sucks
16:54 < Maluseth1> bbl
16:55 < fenn> http://www.antipope.org/charlie/fiction/moderator.html
16:57 < fenn> man, stross is such a terrible writer
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17:14 < superkuh> I like his writing, even divorced from the awesome concepts.
17:16 < fenn> for me the hodgepodge of ideas lifted wholesale from tt and similar mailing lists is too distracting from any story that might exist
17:17 < fenn> it is useful as a quick getter up to speed for introducing people to a large set of new ideas though
17:19 < fenn> ah that reminds me, Maluseth1 if you are looking for some projects to work on, you might find something you are interested in here: http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/doc/proposals/trans-tech.yaml
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17:21 < fenn> hm some of those dependencies are backwards
17:21 < superkuh> "neuro->infrared stim" ?
17:21 < fenn> iirc near IR can cause blood vessel dilation
17:22 < superkuh> Heating in general then?
17:22 < superkuh> (the mechanism)
17:22 < fenn> not sure
17:22 < fenn> A novel method for damage-free, artifact-free stimulation of neural tissue using
17:22 < fenn> pulsed, low-energy infrared laser light is presented
17:23 < fenn> Optical stimulation elicits compound nerve and muscle potentials similar to responses obtained with conventional electrical neural stimulation in a rat sciatic nerve model.
17:23 < fenn> that's not through the skull though
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17:24 < superkuh> Okay. Very neat, regardless. I'll read more.
17:24 < fenn> Stimulation of nerves via infrared rather than electrical methods offers benefits
17:24 < fenn> such as improved spatial selectivity in the brain and cochlea
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17:32 < fenn> aha, clonezilla is what i was looking for
17:36 < ThomasEgi> fenn, got a paper on stimulation on motoric/sensoric nerves?
17:40 < ThomasEgi> if that turns out to be working there too. stimulation should be rather reasonable, given today's advances in micro-optics.
17:42 < fenn> ThomasEgi: just reading interesting bits from the first page of a google search
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17:43 < fenn> anyway this was the paper http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16409069
17:48 < ThomasEgi> sounds pretty sweet for stimulation..
17:48 < ThomasEgi> wish nerves would light up just the same way :D would make things a lot easier
17:49 < ThomasEgi> paywalled. :(
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18:43 < Maluseth1> please give me a listing of bioinformatics/ PCR? equipments for biology. I may be able to get a grant of $50,000 from grandma and i'm gonna buy these and learn.
18:43 < Maluseth1> she's so far approving it - if i can make a great presentation of their use.
18:44 < yashgaroth> bioinformatics: a computer
18:44 < Maluseth1> My goal is, 01. Electronics control system for motorized machinary,
18:44 < Maluseth1> & toys.
18:45 < Maluseth1> err... 02. for biology, hacking into cells?
18:45 < Maluseth1> cell programming and genetic sequencing?
18:45 < Maluseth1> for making pharma products +
18:45 < Maluseth1> stem cells?
18:45 < Maluseth1> i put question marks there, as i'm just reciting my hunches i dont understand them.
18:46 < Maluseth1> the goal is to have the tools to produce something of this nature
18:46 < yashgaroth> so, for 1: you want to do lab automation? like having a robot perform all the liquid transfers?
18:46 < Maluseth1> yes, that's one of the goals.
18:46 < Maluseth1> and working with vehicles
18:47 < yashgaroth> well I can't really speak to the except for the lab side, so I'll try and take on 2
18:47 < Maluseth1> i'll be posting my progress here in a blog.
18:48 < yashgaroth> pcr machine, centrifuge, heat block, water bath, gel box + power supply, pipettors, stir plate...
18:48 < yashgaroth> many types of tubes and flasks and beakers to hold all the various chemicals...oh, and a whole bunch of chemicals
18:49 < yashgaroth> autoclave, incubator, fridge/freezer/microwave
18:49 < yashgaroth> probably don't need a microscope unless you do work with eukaryotes
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18:50 < Maluseth1> all i know is gpu processing helps gene sequencing lol...
18:51 < yashgaroth> biological products, i.e. cell lines, genetic fragments, enzymes
18:51 < yashgaroth> gene sequencing isn't really computationally restricted at this point, unless you count analysis
18:51 < yashgaroth> GPUs are great for a lot of things though
18:52 < Maluseth1> plan on getting k10 kepler
18:52 < yashgaroth> oh and a whole stack of books, by which I mean pdf files
18:52 < Maluseth1> like diy bio?
18:53 < Maluseth1>  sorry typing w. one hand dislocated right shouldr
18:53 < yashgaroth> in what regard, for GPUs? I suppose
18:53 < Maluseth1> o it hurts
18:53 < yashgaroth> pop that sucker back in
18:53 < Maluseth1> its in but hurts
18:54 < yashgaroth> get drunk
18:54 < Maluseth1> searing pain joint tendon damage
18:54 < yashgaroth> really drunk
18:54 < Maluseth1> im 19...not  allowed
18:55 < Maluseth1> haha
18:55 < yashgaroth> go downtown and get some weed then
18:55 < Maluseth1> not in this house neway
18:55 < Maluseth1> yeah maybe
18:56 < Maluseth1> but i gotta finish the list
18:56 < yashgaroth> anyway I'd recommend starting on reading before you buy a bunch of equipment you don't know how to use/don't understand whyhow it's useful
18:56 < nmz787> yashgaroth: hey I have access to a FIB
18:57 < nmz787> got any ideas for generating $ or customers?
18:57 < yashgaroth> great can you carve my face onto the moon
18:57 < yashgaroth> oh
18:57 < yashgaroth> ...I will give you ten dollars to carve my face onto the moon
18:57 < Maluseth1> yes i agree ty 4 the lead
18:57 < nmz787> like, they have a master of the whole bible on a cross that is maybe 1 inch square. the text is literally etched into the silicon
18:58 < yashgaroth> let me read up on ion beams, I only know about ion cannons
18:58 < nmz787> so you can just heat it on a hot plate and melt a piece of plastic to make copies
18:58 < nmz787> could easily read it at 500X optical mag
18:58 < nmz787> ahh, it is a stream of gallium ions
18:58 < nmz787> field of view is 1mm x 1mm
18:58 < yashgaroth> what's the minimum reliable channel width you can carve into something?
18:59 < nmz787> but it can resolve around 10-30nm
18:59 < nmz787> so it images and ablates and implants via shooting gallium ions
18:59 < nmz787> the image comes from secondary electron emission after the gallium hits
19:00 < nmz787> http://www.norsam.com/
19:00 < nmz787> yashgaroth:  do you have contacts for me in portland
19:00 < nmz787> ?
19:00 < yashgaroth> not any bio people
19:01 < yashgaroth> may I recommend washington state, the leaves turn such pretty colors in about a month from now
19:01 < nmz787> micro people?
19:01 < nmz787> or midgets even
19:01 < yashgaroth> nope, artsy types
19:01 < nmz787> well lemme know if you hear about anything cool going on, artsy has its place
19:02 < nmz787> can't always be psyched about python and shooting ions at stuff
19:02 < yashgaroth> hard as I try
19:02 < fenn> (why not?)
19:03 < nmz787> :F
19:03 < nmz787> :D
19:03  * fenn is always psyched about python and shooting stuff
19:04 < fenn> okay time to upgrayeddd
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 09 00:00:05 2012