--- Log opened Thu Nov 22 00:00:24 2012 00:03 -!- Juul [~Juul@50-0-146-204.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:11 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@103-9-42-1.flip.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:20 -!- Juul [~Juul@50-0-146-204.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:25 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@103-9-42-1.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:26 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:35 -!- Juul [~Juul@50-0-146-204.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:36 -!- Simurg [~Shehrazad@95.5.88.151] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:36 -!- Simurg [~Shehrazad@95.5.88.151] has quit [Changing host] 00:36 -!- Simurg [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:37 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:42 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@103-9-42-1.flip.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:48 < abetusk_> is anyone up? 00:48 < fenn> nobody here but us degenerates 00:49 < fenn> that's pronounced "duh jean hurts" 00:50 < fenn> ow 00:51 < abetusk_> fenn, are you involved in creating kanzure and nmz787's laser cutter? 00:51 < fenn> yes i had some input on the motion stage design, fwiw 00:52 < abetusk_> do you know how it's going? 00:52 < fenn> nathan is going to be testing some ideas using a FIB he has access to 00:53 < fenn> there's quite a bit of process stuff that needs to be worked out, completely separate from the laser part 00:53 < fenn> how to cast and bond layers of PDMS etc 00:53 < abetusk_> even getting a single layer cut would be a huge step forward 00:55 < fenn> i was looking at some samples cut on a friend's universal laser systems .. er, laser. 00:56 < fenn> it had awful aliasing on the curves, i was really surprised 00:56 < fenn> it's like they didnt have enough bits in the position counter 00:56 < abetusk_> what was the system and what was the accuracy and resolution? 00:58 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@103-9-42-1.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:02 < fenn> hm. sometimes the internet is not helpful 01:03 < fenn> it was gray and red, at least ten years old. cutting size 1000 by 1500mm or so. it was probably an xl-9200 or xl-12000 01:04 < fenn> they both have resolution of 1016 dpi, but i don't believe it 01:06 < fenn> he was saying the shopbot had the same software bug 01:06 < fenn> it's something in the motion interpolation of arcs 01:06 < fenn> they come out looking more like small 45 degree lines joined together 01:07 < abetusk_> interesting. All the more reason to use something like grbl or linuxcnc 01:07 < fenn> about 0.2mm long i'd guess 01:07 < abetusk_> yeah, 10 mil is not so great for the type of work you want to be doing 01:10 < fenn> nathan seems to dislike linuxcnc for reasons i can't understand 01:11 < fenn> or perhaps he's just more excited about using the "propeller" at any cost 01:12 < fenn> it always seemed like someone's first attempt at getting a chip fabbed, a neat idea but not something to seriously use in anything you want to work consistently 01:12 < fenn> also i hate the whole basic stamp scene for how they dumb down everything 01:13 < abetusk_> propeller is still using basic? 01:13 < fenn> anyway that's just my impression of it, i don't have any valid complaints 01:13 < fenn> there's a c compiler for it. i'm not sure what the best way to program 8 cores is 01:14 < fenn> they have asm and also "spin" 01:14 < abetusk_> I'm pretty agnostic. I like grbl, but that's because it's simple, cheap and I've used it. The idea of making a custom kernel just to communicate to the stepper drivers seems a little backward, but that's just my opinion 01:14 < abetusk_> I'm happy to use whatever tool is appropriate for the job 01:14 < fenn> nah a lot of people misunderstand what linuxcnc is about 01:15 < fenn> it's not really for sending pulses to stepper drivers, though most people use it for that 01:15 < fenn> the idea is to be able to do complex calculations in real time such as you'd need to control non-cartesian robots, and to be able to use any mix of servos, steppers, galvanometers, what have you 01:16 < fenn> also you have to remember when linuxcnc was first created, there were no microcontrollers capable of even running a cartesian robot 01:17 < abetusk_> ah interesting. Yes, that does make more sense 01:18 < fenn> er, well they had some pretty ambitious motion planning algorithms as well 01:18 < fenn> anyway it has a long history and may not be the best thing for running a small mill 01:19 < abetusk_> Yeah, for a beginner mill, grbl is probably just fine 01:19 < fenn> but it's quite thoroughly tested and does what it's supposed to 01:22 < fenn> i'm somewhat less enthused by this caveat: "Grbl renders circles and arcs by subdividing them into teeny tiny lines. You will probably never need to adjust this value – but if you find that your circles are too crude (really? one tenth of a millimeter is not precise enough for you? Are you in nanotech?) you may adjust this. Lower values gives higher precision but may lead to performance issues." 01:23 < fenn> that's for 0.8; i believe 0.7 interpolates arcs in realtime 01:23 < fenn> why would you ever hardcode something like that? 01:24 < fenn> i like linuxcnc's method of specifying (G64) the tolerance of the path, and letting the controller figure out how far it can cut corners 01:25 < abetusk_> well, the nice thing about grbl (and linuxcnc as well) is that you can extend it to your needs. 01:25 < abetusk_> I wanted feedback from my micro running grbl so I altered grbl and now it has a command that gives feedback 01:26 < fenn> cool. what kind of feedback? 01:27 < abetusk_> The main feature was the positional feedback 01:28 < abetusk_> but it also reports what the current feed and seek rate are. 01:28 < fenn> you have encoders or something? 01:28 < abetusk_> One of my annoyances with grbl was that you could set the default feed and seek rate but that's of course separate from the current feed and seek rate. 01:29 < abetusk_> I do height sensing. I need to make sure it's finished it's move in the z direction before I give it the next one 01:29 < fenn> ah there should be a M code for that 01:29 < fenn> i guess grbl doesnt do M codes 01:30 < abetusk_> hmm, not sure I looked all that closely. What m code is it supposed to be? 01:31 < nmz787__> hey skorket 01:31 < nmz787__> er abetusk_ 01:31 < abetusk_> heh, you got me 01:31 < fenn> i think it's called a probe move, similar to homing with a switch 01:31 < nmz787__> know anyone that needs nanoscale milling done? I have access to a FIB now 01:32 < nmz787__> abetusk_: http://web.pdx.edu/~pmoeck/phy381/fib.pdf 01:35 < nmz787__> was you goal an overall mill, or just pcb fab? 01:36 < fenn> looks like they haven't implemented probe moves https://github.com/grbl/grbl/wiki/Development-Path-and-Future-Needs 01:36 < fenn> "Up to debate." 01:37 < abetusk_> nmz787__, nice 01:38 < abetusk_> I wanted both really. The focus was always on rapid prototyping for PCBs but I was also hoping to have a general mill 01:38 < abetusk_> I just bought a ShapeOko for the hackerspace that's starting up, so maybe I'll use that for courser stuff and general use and try to keep mine to just PCBs 01:38 < abetusk_> but we'll see 01:39 < fenn> i'd like to move toward direct inkjet masking and surface mount for most things 01:40 < fenn> through hole is actually denser if you can't do plated vias, but it's crusty looking 01:40 < fenn> and you have to drill all those holes 01:40 < fenn> better to do it in software with topo router :P 01:41 < fenn> someone wrote a topo router for PCB (gEDA) but i haven't figured out how to use it 01:41 < abetusk_> ah, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhH05jNyjCk 01:41 < abetusk_> and their solution to the via problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnOVQR95NB0 01:42 < abetusk_> problem with direct inkjet is that you still have to etch with nasty chemicals. Resolution is probably much better though 01:42 < fenn> is it actually cutting copper with the laser? why do they raster like that? 01:43 < abetusk_> from what I understand, it's vaporizing the copper, so yes. 01:43 < abetusk_> You're asking why the laser seems to be going in a diagonal like that? 01:44 < fenn> yeah why not just cut around the traces 01:44 < fenn> i thought copper was too reflective and too heat dispersive to cut cleanly 01:44 < abetusk_> that's a good question. I do seem to remember reading somewhere that they're actually vaporizing spots on the copper. Maybe it's for heat dissipation? 01:44 < fenn> you had to coat it with something black to get enough heat into ti 01:45 < abetusk_> I think they're using a Nd:YAG that's been doubled or quadrupled down to 250 or 500 nm 01:45 < fenn> yeah the spot in the video was green 01:45 < abetusk_> past 500nm or so, copper reflects too much 01:45 < abetusk_> so I thought that too, but apparently it can be done 01:47 < fenn> hmm. anyway, i dont mind an etching step. most people who are into lasers and mills dont even know about newer etchants like persulfate or cuprous chloride 01:47 < fenn> or is it cupric chloride 01:48 < fenn> anyway, add copper sulfate to vinegar and salt, bubble air into it 01:48 < abetusk_> the latter, I believe. Muriatic acid + peroxide, right? 01:48 < fenn> yes 01:48 < fenn> its the cuprous ion that does the actual etching, formed in equilibrium with the cupric ion 01:50 < abetusk_> I looked into using etchants, but all the nasty chemicals are a big hassle for me 01:50 < fenn> one of these days some kid will come up with an automatic point to point wire bonder and we can forget about all this pcb nonsense 01:51 < fenn> it's just bleach, i dont see what the big deal is. it doesn't even smell bad 01:52 < fenn> then you add aluminum foil and get your copper back 01:53 < fenn> oh also you might not know that you can run flexible kapton copper foil directly through a laser printer 01:54 < fenn> now i'm wondering how good the alignment is on duplex printing.. 01:56 < fenn> it's hard to beat lasers for drilling small holes though 01:56 < fenn> need a FIB for that :P 01:57 < nmz787__> why am i not finding hits for fib mask mastering gold 01:57 < nmz787__> (relevant ones) 01:57 < nmz787__> i'm pretty sure someone has coated glass or quartz with gold and then tried ablating in a fib before 01:59 < fenn> why gold in particular? 01:59 < nmz787__> there's a gold sputterer there 02:00 < fenn> http://proceedings.spiedigitallibrary.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=1310840 02:00 < fenn> not exactly a howto 02:01 < fenn> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=4966198 02:02 < fenn> oh that's deposition 02:02 < nmz787__> i also learned of this company today, i may go visit them next week since i'm flying back to rochester (which is where they are) 02:03 < nmz787__> http://www.stampertech.com/ 02:03 < nmz787__> they were making 3 micron wide stuff that was around 100nm tall using some interference direct exposure thing 02:04 < fenn> hey just convert your microfluidic design to polar coordinates 02:04 < nmz787__> some tech ultralord shit 02:04 < fenn> UV laser cured? what's interference direct exposure supposed to mean? 02:04 < nmz787__> well apparently he can produce 8 micro bibles in under half an hour 02:06 < nmz787__> some version of this maybe http://www.stampertech.com/holo2005.html 02:06 < nmz787__> there's a patent 02:07 < fenn> oh i see 02:07 < fenn> it's just for disc graphics 02:08 < fenn> because holograms can't be etched with a digital process 02:08 < nmz787__> http://www.google.com/patents?id=kqTZAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false 02:08 < fenn> you need curvy slopes or the fourier spectrum is all whack 02:08 < nmz787__> huh? 02:09 < fenn> ffs google.. fucking toolbar.. there's like 1/6th of the screen actually showing content, the rest is navigation and google plus cruft 02:09 < nmz787__> i'm seeing more like 1/3 content 02:10 < nmz787__> but anyway if he can make 8 micro bibles in under 30 mins that's pretty good 02:11 < nmz787__> so if its pretty cheap, i can make my macro to micro to nano manifold with that tech, and make all the reactor stuff in the nanoscale 02:12 < nmz787__> if the stampertech isn't right or cheap, then i'll just get some 8000dpi film printed for lithography for now 02:13 < nmz787__> at least i'll get to making some channels 02:13 < nmz787__> i'm not sure how to do my reaction center size optimization 02:14 < fenn> bah why am i reading this patent, it's not meant to be understood 02:14 < nmz787__> like there are reagent costs which decrease, but manufacturing cost and probably dev time increase 02:14 < nmz787__> (as you go down in scale) 02:14 < nmz787__> and then there is fucking layer registration 02:15 < fenn> yeah precision is easy, it's the accuracy that's a bitch 02:15 < nmz787__> that's one reason alone for not wanting to manufacture microfluidics 02:15 < fenn> you can make features small if they dont interact with other layers 02:16 < fenn> does it matter if, say, a via is 10x the size of the surrounding components? 02:18 < fenn> hmm they're claiming a million dots per second? that's pretty fast 02:20 < fenn> and yet burning a dvd is 60x faster still 02:21 < fenn> hard to wrap your head around nano speeds 02:22 < fenn> how many bits do you need to specify positions in a complete reactor? if one were to use galvanometers to move a laser spot around 02:23 < fenn> or a FIB or something like that 02:23 < nmz787__> specify positions? 02:24 < fenn> so if your resolution is 1mm and you have 8 bits you can make something up to 256 mm wide 02:24 < nmz787__> the reaction chamber is just a line with a few branching lines, one for each chemical needed, one end of the main line is rinse other end is waste 02:25 < fenn> if resolution is 1nm and 8 bits maximum of 256nm wide, and so on 02:25 < nmz787__> ahh 02:26 < fenn> it's a 2d object more or less, and you can trade bits on each axis, but no real reason to do that 02:26 < nmz787__> i'd say a reactor would be a few handuls of ten bytes then 02:26 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@103-9-42-1.flip.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:26 < nmz787__> handfulls* 02:26 < fenn> really? that seems way too high 02:27 < fenn> please jog my memory, what's a reasonable channel width? 02:27 < nmz787__> well i think resolution is more like 10 or 20 nm 02:27 < nmz787__> and i think 100nm channels are small enough to start with 02:27 < abetusk_> ok, going to bed. Have a good TG 02:27 < nmz787__> 100nm wide that is 02:28 < nmz787__> i figure it will have to be 10 to 20 times as long as it is wide 02:29 < nmz787__> so width is under a byte 02:29 < nmz787__> and i guess at 20x width long thats still under a byte 02:29 < nmz787__> right? 02:30 < fenn> 2000nm at 10nm resolution is about a byte, yes 02:30 < nmz787__> but since you'd need rows, you'd have a byte * 5 02:30 < nmz787__> at 20nm res 02:31 < fenn> rows? 02:31 < nmz787__> well its a raster image 02:31 < nmz787__> so umm 02:31 < nmz787__> err 02:32 < fenn> i'm still not sure why it has to be a raster 02:32 < nmz787__> guess its just like a TV 02:33 < nmz787__> sortof 02:33 < nmz787__> or at least it needs an XY 02:33 < fenn> ever used a vector oscilloscope? 02:33 < nmz787__> and PULSE command 02:33 < nmz787__> or FIRE 02:33 < nmz787__> etc 02:33 < fenn> FIRE THE ION CANNON 02:34 < nmz787__> no 02:35 < fenn> electron beams have no inertia so raster scan isn't any faster than some other pattern 02:35 < fenn> it's the area you cover that matters 02:35 < fenn> also there's some hysteresis lag i guess.. i've never built a TV so i'm sorta making it up as i go 02:36 < fenn> either way, vector or raster, you're going to have some misalignment at the edges if you need to reposition part way through an etching 02:37 < fenn> so it's best to do the whole thing in one go 02:37 < fenn> but to do that you need lots of bits and very accurate DAC's 02:37 < fenn> er, very low noise DACs at least 02:38 < fenn> and low noise amplifiers, and power supplies, etc 02:40 < fenn> it would be nice if we could do realtime alignment to the image itself 02:40 < nmz787__> i'm not sure how the zoom works exactly, I think its just a digital pre-amp after the DAC but before the electrostatic plates/lens 02:40 < fenn> so it's not actually moving around? 02:40 < nmz787__> well i figure the smalles piece of tubing will probably need 1 sq mm by itself 02:41 < nmz787__> well the most far out zoom electrically is 1 sq mm visible, but then the steps for the beam are much bigger 02:41 < fenn> i figured the sample was on some kind of xy stage 02:41 < nmz787__> and that is why the image is less-zoomed in 02:41 < nmz787__> it is also on an XY stage 02:41 < nmz787__> i'm not sure how accurate that is 02:42 < fenn> so, maybe you can first etch a grid at the wide zoom setting, then zoom in and realign to the grid marks 02:42 < nmz787__> but you could maybe setup a grid of fiducials that you can just pan around in 02:43 < nmz787__> well i'm not sure the electric zoom stuff needs fiducials 02:43 < nmz787__> but i def think the stage positioning would 02:43 < nmz787__> and i figure the smallest piece of macroscale tubing is gonna require a whole sq mm by itself 02:44 < fenn> oh but you're just connecting a few tubes together 02:44 < fenn> macro -> micro -> nano 02:44 < nmz787__> so i think i'm gonna need like 5x5 1 mm sqs 02:44 < fenn> a fan-out i believe it's called 02:45 < nmz787__> right but if i don't do that fan out (macro->micro manifold) with lithography then i have to do it with the fib 02:45 < fenn> oh fan-out means something else apparently 02:45 < nmz787__> and if i don't figure out some stage fiducial system, something like that 10cm long grating you want would never happen 02:46 < fenn> i didnt know about the electrical pan/zoom 02:47 < fenn> i guess you can also image before you etch, so you can see if it's aligned properly before pressing the "FIRE THE ION BEAM" button 02:47 < nmz787__> yeah full zoom i think field of view was low microns 02:48 < fenn> is there automatic alignment software? 02:48 < nmz787__> not sure how old/new it is, and how 'auto' it is 02:48 < nmz787__> the software FEI is showing now on their website looks decent 02:48 < fenn> if you have to manually realign 500 times for each chip, that kinda sucks 02:49 < nmz787__> but i dunno how much of that is only with their newer equipment 02:49 < nmz787__> but if it has to be done manually, i think we could figure out a system 02:49 < nmz787__> or, fix it with automagic somehow 02:49 < fenn> you should try doing two of those gratings side by side (2mm x 5mm) and see how well the lines match up 02:50 < fenn> the big lines should be continuous for sure, i dunno about the small lines 02:50 < nmz787__> what do you mean? 02:50 < fenn> the variable pitch "chirp mask" 02:51 < fenn> to test alignment 02:51 < fenn> if it's misaligned in Y the lines will be out of phase 02:51 < nmz787__> ahh 02:52 < nmz787__> why would you be sure of the big lines being aligned? 02:52 < fenn> since it covers several length scales you can see how well it aligns.. say the 1 micron line looks okay but the 100 nm line are out of phase 02:53 < nmz787__> capillary microbore OD 360 micron avail 02:53 < fenn> eh? 02:54 < nmz787__> well how many 360 micron tubes can you jam reliably into a sq mm 02:54 < nmz787__> 4 or 5 maybe? 02:54 < fenn> how long is a string 02:54 < fenn> (how long are the tubes) 02:54 < nmz787__> i found a paper eariler using long neck PDMS flanges to aid in stabilizing tubing 02:55 < fenn> oh, perpendicularly 02:55 < nmz787__> well the tubing needs to go from the chip area into a bottle of reagent i guess 02:55 < nmz787__> so 3-12 inches i'd say 02:56 < fenn> does it need to go into the center of the chip? how about inserting them parallel to the chip layers? 02:56 < fenn> you'd have much more area in contact with the tubing that way 02:57 < fenn> say your layer thickness is 360 microns, then you just cut a 360 micron wide channel 02:58 < nmz787__> hmm 02:58 < nmz787__> well there is some thickness to the tubing 02:59 < nmz787__> the wall i mean 02:59 < fenn> you're worried about leaking around the corners? 02:59 < nmz787__> that seems like it would only be worse if I only had to use the FIB for everything 02:59 < fenn> channel cross section is square; i assume the tubing is circular 02:59 < nmz787__> because that would be more sq mm 03:00 < nmz787__> i think the long neck flanges just made a thickier PDMS layer 03:00 < fenn> what's the limiting factor in FIB etching? 03:01 < fenn> is it beam power? 03:01 < nmz787__> slow to get more than 50nm down into silicon 03:01 < nmz787__> yeah 03:01 < nmz787__> depends on the material 03:01 < nmz787__> if i wanted to master molds in silicon, it could take an hour to mill 10x20x10 micron rectanguloid 03:01 < fenn> have you thought about etching other materials like, say, kapton 03:02 < nmz787__> hmm, no 03:02 < fenn> it tends to sublimate rather than melt 03:02 < nmz787__> i am looking at some diamond stuff now 03:02 < nmz787__> in a FIB? 03:02 < fenn> melting probably isnt a problem with FIB though 03:03 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@gw-ko-kostr2.inka-online.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:03 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@gw-ko-kostr2.inka-online.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:03 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:03 < fenn> kapton's used in laser cutting because of how clean it cuts 03:03 < nmz787__> so the slow silicon etch rate is why i was looking for lithography mask mastering with the FIB 03:04 < nmz787__> because i figure you only need a 50-200nm of gold or so to block light 03:04 < nmz787__> i dont actually know, but that seems like plenty of atoms 03:05 < fenn> heh 03:05 < nmz787__> so i would think mastering a mask would be quick to FIB, then just do lithography 03:05 < nmz787__> for the microscale stuff 03:05 < nmz787__> the nano would still need to be directly milled 03:05 < fenn> you need to block the etchant i'd think, not light 03:05 < nmz787__> because its smaller than light :P 03:05 < fenn> reactive ion etching 03:06 < nmz787__> huh? 03:06 < nmz787__> but its a beam of ions 03:06 < fenn> basically you have an oxygen plasma that howls away at the entire surface of silicon 03:06 < nmz787__> when? 03:06 < fenn> during litho etching 03:06 < nmz787__> no 03:06 < nmz787__> not all 03:07 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive-ion_etching 03:07 < nmz787__> i meant ablate gold from glass or quartz, then do contact lithography on SU-8 resist 03:07 < fenn> why transfer the pattern around like that 03:07 < nmz787__> develop that, then pour silicone over that 03:08 < nmz787__> to avoid hours on the FIB 03:08 < fenn> it's the same surface area 03:08 < nmz787__> or i make one master macro-micro-nano *breakout* board 03:09 < nmz787__> and then just make tiny iterations of nano boards 03:09 < nmz787__> that press up against the adapter 03:09 < fenn> hmm 03:09 < nmz787__> seems like that adapter could/should be steel or glass 03:10 < nmz787__> but i guess if its easy to replicate, PDMS is fine too 03:10 < fenn> yeah that's a good idea 03:11 < nmz787__> but i'm gonna check out this holographic guy first 03:11 < fenn> you might even be able to bridge the micro-nano part on the nano chip, and then you only have to do macro-micro on the breakout board, which can be done with 3d printing or laser cutting 03:12 < nmz787__> it would be great if he could just make me a few adapter masters in less than a half hour 03:12 < nmz787__> since they don't need to go below micron scale 03:12 < nmz787__> yeah 03:13 < fenn> i'm picturing tweezering some capillary tubing into place under a microscope 03:13 < nmz787__> like it just needs to accept some of those 360 micron or 510 micron OD tubes, and bring them down to like a 1-5 micron sized hole 03:14 < nmz787__> i think it'd be more like threading a needle 03:14 < nmz787__> you could probably use a scope 03:14 < fenn> want to make sure the tube doesn't get clogged or broken 03:14 < fenn> might even need glue 03:14 < nmz787__> alternatively, maybe the adapter is PDMS, and a tray hinges down on top, holding an array or capillary barbs 03:15 < nmz787__> like an IC holder 03:15 < nmz787__> socket 03:15 < nmz787__> i saw some 510 micron OD steel 03:15 < fenn> that uses a lot of area on your chip though 03:16 < fenn> you need pi*(510/2)^2 microns per tube 03:17 < fenn> at least 03:17 < fenn> twice that realistically 03:18 < fenn> is 510 microns "micro" or "macro"? 03:18 < nmz787__> uhh, well 03:18 < nmz787__> is has the micro prefix 03:18 < fenn> can you get smaller tubing? 03:18 < fenn> like 50 microns? 03:18 < nmz787__> quick search showed 360 03:19 < nmz787__> 50 micron ID 360 OD 03:20 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:21 < fenn> ideally you'd have one piece that goes from finger-grabbable tubing to nano holes.. how about an inkjet head? 03:21 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:22 < nmz787__> those are pretty big though 03:22 < fenn> 50 micron 03:22 < nmz787__> i dont think i could very easily position something less than 50 microns by hand 03:22 < fenn> well, 10 to 100 micron 03:23 < fenn> no probably not 03:23 < nmz787__> well i mean the whole thing is big 03:23 < nmz787__> 3 x 5 cm? 03:23 < fenn> ah but the chip part is only a couple mm on a side 03:23 < nmz787__> can you disconnect them? 03:23 < fenn> it's glued to a kapton manifold much like flex pcb 03:23 < nmz787__> from the ... reservoirs?? 03:24 < nmz787__> hmm 03:26 < fenn> HP’s latest generation of printhead technology, ink chambers, fluidic features and nozzles are formed monolithically using photo-imageable thick-film polymers. All-lithographic patterning coupled with new advances in silicon surface and bulk micromachining techniques eliminates the need for mechanical alignment processes and results in fluidic features that have the precision and integration 03:26 < fenn> scale of semiconductor devices and circuits. 03:27 < fenn> internet's not giving up the info i want 03:28 < nmz787__> heh 03:29 < fenn> unfortunately "inkjet chip" refers to the stupid DRM-like ink volume counter they use to force you to buy brand name ink cartridges 03:29 < nmz787__> arduino inkshield?? 03:30 < nmz787__> oh biocurios has that bioprinter group 03:31 < fenn> well anyway the point is there's some way to couple macro scale tubing to 10 micron holes etched in silicon 03:31 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:31 < fenn> so then you just need a way to go from a flat silicon surface with holes in it, to your nanofluidic chip 03:31 < fenn> which seems to be mostly a problem of alignment 03:34 < fenn> they're going to drag me out of bed and force feed me in 6 hours :\ 03:34 < fenn> and ask all sorts of probing questions about what i'm doing with my life 03:35 < nmz787__> are you home with parents? 03:36 < fenn> yeah 03:37 < fenn> " Polymer processing with UV excimer lasers occurs without any heat affected zones and yields particularly clean ablation results. " in polyimide (kapton) 03:37 < fenn> repeatable 300 nm +- 5nm holes 03:38 < fenn> in 50 micron kapton film 03:38 < fenn> er, 500 nm holes 03:38 < fenn> +- 100 nm my bad 03:39 < nmz787__> yeah but i no have UV laser 03:39 < nmz787__> err 03:39 < nmz787__> wait 03:40 < nmz787__> actually i think this company does have one but its in NM 03:40 < fenn> the wavelength is 308nm so you can probably expect lambda * 1.5 hole size 03:40 < fenn> i'm sure there's a formula for that 03:41 < fenn> anyway you can FIB the hole 03:41 < fenn> and then do PCB etching for the fluid manifold 03:43 < nmz787__> well its past bed time 03:43 < nmz787__> g2g 03:43 < fenn> looks like "high precision" pcb etching is 25 microns or so 03:44 < fenn> night 03:44 < ThomasEgi> 25 microns.. bout one mil. that's pretty small for pcb's already 03:47 < fenn> that was what lpkf claimed 03:47 < ThomasEgi> main problem with etching pcb's is that your copper usualy is prety thick. so etching a thin trace would etch out the volume below the trace,too. 03:48 < ThomasEgi> if you only etch a few microns in depth, going smaller should be no real problem 03:49 < fenn> the channel doesnt need to be full copper thickness 03:50 < fenn> even laser printers are getting up there in resolution these days.. 2400 dpi = 10 micron is common 03:51 < fenn> pcb photo plotters have 8600 dpi resolution 03:51 < fenn> http://mitspcb.com/edoc/bungard/photoplotter.htm 03:52 < ThomasEgi> you can use the usual minify process to project a big plot onto a smaller surface 03:52 < fenn> i think you can even get things 3D printed this small with SLA 03:59 < fenn> these syringe pumps are so much overkill 04:00 < fenn> the laser bubble pump is a much better idea 04:01 < fenn> i get worried when a company's catalog says 'tubing diameter 1/16" um OD' 04:10 < ThomasEgi> wha?.. 1/16 inch micrometer? 05:40 -!- strages_home [~strages@adsl-98-67-175-176.shv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:39 < archels> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22237065 06:39 < archels> The inverse calorie intake-LTL association is consistent with trial data showing beneficial effects of calorie restriction on aging biomarkers. Further exploration of energy intake and LTL dynamics in the young is needed. 06:39 < archels> ltl = leukocyte telomere length 07:18 -!- Simurg [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:26 -!- Simurg [~Shehrazad@95.5.88.151] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:26 -!- Simurg [~Shehrazad@95.5.88.151] has quit [Changing host] 07:26 -!- Simurg [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:31 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:57 < delinquentme> so is there a general consensus in here yet on what technology we're banking on for life extension :D ?? 07:58 < Mariu> ! 07:59 < Mariu> no idea, I'm curious about that myself 07:59 < archels> try to hang in there using a healthy lifestyle and minor nutritional supplementation until we invent something that *actually works* 08:59 < strangewarp> replicators, connected to nuclear reactors, stored in the chest cavity 09:01 < Mariu> :o 09:03 -!- Coornail [~Coornail@li66-97.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 09:03 -!- Coornail [~Coornail@li66-97.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:06 -!- audy [~audy@heyaudy.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:07 -!- Coornail [~Coornail@li66-97.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:08 -!- Coornail [~Coornail@li66-97.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:09 -!- Coornail is now known as Guest95905 09:11 -!- audy [~audy@heyaudy.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:23 -!- chevbird [~chevbird@pool-108-34-246-28.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:28 -!- chevbird [~chevbird@pool-108-34-246-28.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:31 -!- strages_home [~strages@adsl-98-67-175-176.shv.bellsouth.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:37 < kanzure> delinquentme: yes http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ 09:37 < Mariu> thanks, kanzure 09:48 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@103-9-42-1.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:50 -!- chevbird [~chevbird@pool-108-34-246-28.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:55 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:23 -!- EnLilaSko [~Nattzor@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:24 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:25 < archels> http://turingbirds.com/temp/Science-2012-Langecker-932-6.pdf 10:25 < archels> holy mother of awesome 10:25 < archels> "Synthetic Lipid Membrane Channels Formed by Designed DNA Nanostructures" 10:26 < Mariu> :p 10:27 < fenn> seems like a bad link, not sure what's wrong 10:28 < fenn> oh it's just slow 10:28 < archels> it's 7MB 10:28 < fenn> eta 10 min 10:29 < archels> well find it on your own if you don't want to wait :P 10:29 < yashgaroth> no no I'm invested in this download now 10:29 < archels> haha 10:30 < fenn> what he said 10:33 < yashgaroth> oh they just stuck cholesterol on it? well that's cheating 10:35 < yashgaroth> "and applied voltage pulses to facilitate incorporation into the membrane" damn straight *cough* 10:36 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-98.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:36 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-98.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:36 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:44 < archels> http://turingbirds.com/temp/Langecker.SM.pdf 10:44 < archels> supplementary material 10:46 < archels> n fact, we seem to observe spontaneous insertion into the lipid bilayer (as discussed 10:46 < archels> in SOM text S2) only for POPC lipids, whereas for DPhPC bilayers the additional 10:46 < archels> application of voltage pulses is required (see below). 10:48 < yashgaroth> oh no doubt, I'm just a fan of electricity re moving DNA across membranes 10:48 < archels> anyway, the voltage and current for the necessary pulse are comparable to biological values, so probably not lethal to the cell 11:22 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:36 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-98.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:36 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-98.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:36 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:14 -!- EnLilaSko [~Nattzor@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:15 -!- EnLilaSko [~Nattzor@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:22 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:23 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:27 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:39 -!- Skei [~Quentin@87-194-112-220.bethere.co.uk] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:51 -!- Skei [~Quentin@87-194-112-220.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:51 -!- juri_ [juri@funkykitty.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:00 -!- delinquentme_ [~asdfasdf@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:03 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:04 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:18 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:23 -!- user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:27 -!- augur [~augur@65.199.61.222] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:28 -!- EnLilaSko [~Nattzor@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -] 14:42 -!- Tabrenus [~Tabrenus@213.211.132.86.static.edpnet.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:58 < chido> electroporation: a natural choice 14:59 < yashgaroth> :D 15:03 -!- Tabrenus [~Tabrenus@213.211.132.86.static.edpnet.net] has quit [Quit: Tabrenus] 15:04 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:04 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: turkey] 15:22 -!- user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:23 -!- augur [~augur@65.199.61.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:27 < nmz787__> hey how do i getifconfig and iwconfig 15:27 < nmz787__> on a fresh debian install 15:36 < sylph_mako> Apparently it's being obsoleted in favor of iw 16:28 -!- yolo [~doomboxsa@75.105.12.23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39 -!- sivoais [~zaki@199.19.225.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:42 -!- sivoais [~zaki@199.19.225.239] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:49 -!- curt1s [~curtis@sol.whatbox.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:50 -!- curt1s [~curtis@sol.whatbox.ca] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:45 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-98.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:49 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-98.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:49 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:49 -!- jordyd_ [~jordyd@99-177-65-98.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:50 -!- jordyd_ [~jordyd@99-177-65-98.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:51 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:58 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59 -!- delinquentme_ [~asdfasdf@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:20 -!- ParahSailin [~parah@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:20 -!- ParahSailin [~parah@adsl-69-151-150-200.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:20 -!- ParahSailin [~parah@adsl-69-151-150-200.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:20 -!- ParahSailin [~parah@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:55 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:57 -!- technicus [~technicus@50.124.104.66] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:01 < juri_> so, i'm interested in printing living things. anyone have a howto? ;) 20:07 -!- He||eshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:14 < kanzure> juri_: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq 20:14 < kanzure> nmz787__: sudo apt-get install iw 20:14 -!- technicus [~technicus@50.124.104.66] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 20:20 -!- Helleshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:25 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-98.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:30 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-98.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:30 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:44 -!- antifas [~safitan@75.105.12.23] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:00 < juri_> kanzure: thanks. 22:10 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:40 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:16 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:27 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:49 -!- augur [~augur@c-75-74-129-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap --- Log closed Fri Nov 23 00:00:25 2012