--- Log opened Tue Dec 25 00:00:10 2012
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01:48 <@fenn> Agutuk, fish/berry with seal oil (alaskan ice cream)
01:54 < JayDugger> Mock that up with coconut oil, canned tuna, and frozen blueberries.
01:55 < JayDugger> I suspect that would taste better than Agutuk.
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02:02 < JayDugger> I have all those ingredients in the kitchen.
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02:18 <@fenn> what the hell are you talking about, seal oil isn't anything like canned tuna
02:19 <@fenn> oh, sorry. it doesn't actually have fish in the recipe
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02:24 <@fenn> or maybe it does. seems to be similar to pemmican
02:27 <@fenn> "Then after you’re done looking for the bones you add Crisco, whip it up together with your hand or the blender until it’s thick, add sugar and evaporated can milk, whip until the sugar dissolves."
02:27 <@fenn> somehow i doubt that's the traditional recipe
02:31 < archels> *involuntary gag*
02:32 <@fenn> i used to make stuff like that when i was a kid, trying to make ice cream (never did figure it out)
02:42 < archels> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pL6DczbeKpM#!
02:46 <@fenn> any links to christmas music should be preceded with a clear warning
02:48 < archels> hey, I could have pasted some sort of gangnam style conflation.
02:48 <@fenn> that's okay, i wouldn't have watched that either
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03:38 < juri_> ./win 35
03:38 < juri_> er. ;)
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03:58 < archels> hi yorick
04:17 < yorick> hi
04:17 < archels> what's new and happening in the Lower Lands?
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04:58 < jennie> Hello dear members, merry  christmas
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05:59 < archels> Max Payne 3 requires 30 GB of disk space?!
06:01 < archels> yes, yes it does. crap.
06:43 < ThomasEgi> maybe they just forgot to add that part in the title "Max Disk Usage Payne 3"
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08:27 <@kanzure> https://github.com/alevchuk/vim-clutch
08:27 <@kanzure> "VIM Clutch is a hardware pedal for improved text editing speed for users of the magnificent VIM text editor (1, 2)."
08:27 <@kanzure> "When the pedal is pressed down, the pedal types "i" causing VIM to go into Insert Mode. When released, it types <Esc> and you are back in Normal Mode."
08:34 <@kanzure> no vim scripts in the repo though
08:35 <@kanzure> guess there doesn't have to be. but why bother naming it vim-anything.
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10:28 <@kanzure>  http://www.minispaceworld.com/ "the spectacular scale model world for space flight and astronomy"
10:28 <@kanzure> screw disneyland, i wanna go to that
10:29 <@kanzure> http://www.miniatur-wunderland.com/
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12:26 < kirka> Hi, kanzure
12:26 <@kanzure> what
12:26 < kirka> kanzure, looks like a potential new developer for NE1: http://www.reddit.com/r/nanotech/comments/153l6g/how_close_or_far_away_are_we_from_reaching_eric_k/
12:27 < kirka> >I hope I will be able to contribute to the community.
12:27 <@kanzure> stop reading reddit
12:27 <@kanzure> when he says "contribute" he means "to reddit"
12:27 <@kanzure> "This software was supposed to be open source, and free for the public, but I can't find it anywhere (I may just be incompetent)."
12:27 <@kanzure> i doubt this guy would be a developer
12:28 <@kanzure> the git repo is pasted all over the place on the web.. how could a developer not find it. i'm highy skeptical.
12:29 < kirka> Maybe
12:29 < kirka> That's good arguments
12:29 <@kanzure> it's even posted in the comments
12:29 < kirka> I posted it
12:30 <@kanzure> i know. that's why i mentioned it.
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12:31 <@kanzure> i think his name is adam hall
12:32 <@kanzure> "##hplusroadmap @ irc.freenode.org" is wrong.. it's irc.freenode.net
12:32 < joshcryer> Smalley was right, that's what happened.
12:33 <@kanzure> no, what happened was that mark decided to stop dumping money into nanorex
12:33 < kirka> I can understand Mark, he wasn't big millionaire
12:33 <@kanzure> yes he is
12:34 <@kanzure> wtf dude.
12:34 < kirka> I thought von Ehr was richer
12:34 <@kanzure> i'm pretty sure mark made a few hundred million in the 90s selling an ftp company
12:34 < kirka> Wow
12:36 < kirka> joshcryer I think "Mark Modzelewski" and "Nanobusiness alliance" happened
12:36 <@kanzure> "Netrex, which reported revenue of $21.8 million for the year ended December 31, 1998, has over 500 customers."
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12:37 < kirka> kanzure Ok
12:37 < joshcryer> It's like string theory. Why no progress? Because it's a bunk approach. :)
12:38 < kirka> kanzure But it's hard to find anything about him
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12:39 <@kanzure> so it was for 2.45M shares of ISS in august 1998
12:39 <@kanzure> somehow i doubt this is going to add up to a hundred million
12:39 <@kanzure> aha "The pooling-of-interest transaction makes the deal worth $57 million."
12:40 < kirka> So you estimate his wealth at ~20M$?
12:40 <@kanzure> well. i was wrong. anyway, he had enough resources.
12:40 < kirka> They are so secretive, these CEOs
12:41 < kirka> btw DNA ion channel was designed in Autodesk's caDNAno
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12:41 < kirka> Though they mention it only once
12:41 < kirka> In that paper
12:42 < kirka> kanzure Shouldn't GNU and OSS guys be interested in NE1?
12:42 < kirka> Or they are just afraid of technical things?
12:44 < kirka> https://engineering.purdue.edu/~qobi/ this man is a wizard
12:59 < joshcryer> Interest in hacking on GNU or OSS software is directly proportional to the use the hacker gets out of it or the interest in it with the community at large.
13:00 < joshcryer> kirka, yeah that guy made Stalin. Fucking smart dude.
13:00 < kirka> Stalin is a very cool compiler, yes
13:01 < kirka> He also made MacPitts silicon compiler
13:02 < kirka> joshcryer What's your position on MNT?
13:02 < joshcryer> kirka, I think microtechnology and macrotechnology is more useful toward making replicators and the like.
13:03 < joshcryer> kirka, I think MNT has its uses within biology and circuit design. But I think it's very limited.
13:04 < kirka> Do you have physical analysis supporting this claim?
13:04 < kirka> >This, to me, leads to a simple strategic question: Would it not be better to first produce a working von-Neumann machine on the macro-scale (a clanking replicator), and then (perhaps) think about how it could be reduced to smaller scales? 
13:04 < kirka> reminds me of these comments
13:05 < joshcryer> kirka, I do not have a physical analysis confirming or denying the claim. All I have are words from a nobel prize winner. An argument from authority, I admit, but I don't have any more information than that.
13:05 < kirka> That's fair.
13:05 < kirka> Ok
13:05 < joshcryer> kirka, as far as macro->micro->nano, I think that's a great approach.
13:06 < joshcryer> kirka, which is why imo what we need is a way to design factories at the macro scale.
13:06 < joshcryer> And, if it can scale down, without hitting the enzyme barrier that Smalley talked about, then we're golden. Note: I do not rule that out, I just haven't hard of it before.
13:06 < kirka> I mean that's fair to say this from the beginning (so there is no needless dispute)
13:09 < kirka> joshcryer You know stalin, aren't you into lisp/scheme then?
13:11 < joshcryer> kirka, yeah, I like Scheme.
13:11 < kirka> That's cool, I like it too
13:11 < joshcryer> I'm probably the dumbest person here though. qobi / Siskind's name just stood out.
13:12 < joshcryer> (he was responsible for getting Scheme on that Programming Language Shootout page and taught me a lot about how continuation passing style is super efficient)
13:12 < joshcryer> (getting Scheme a high rank on the Programming Language Shootout page, I should say)
13:12 < kirka> You knew him in person?
13:14 < joshcryer> No, no...
13:14 < kirka> Cool anyway
13:14 < joshcryer> And it doesn't even look like Stalin features on that site anymore.
13:14 < kirka> Programming Language Shootout ?
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13:15 < joshcryer> Just a petty /. era argumentitive tool: http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/index.php
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13:16 < kirka> I know it
13:16 < joshcryer> Stalin uses continuation passing style to optimize the fuck out of the program and that's how I learned about CPS.
13:17 < joshcryer> (to clarify about being "taught" about CPS)
13:17 < kirka> I understand CPS, nut don't quite see how it can help in optimizing. I guess I should read more papers about it.
13:17 < kirka> *but
13:18 < joshcryer> It's basically a goto.
13:18 < kirka> Aha
13:19 < joshcryer> I say basically because it's a bit more complicated than that and I bet if I were in #scheme I'd be getting trashed. :P
13:20 < kirka> But why is it more effivient than implicit stack based transfer of control flow (like e.g C does that)
13:20 < kirka> I understand that formallu continuation is a state of computational process
13:20 < kirka> And calling it means return to that state
13:20 < kirka> And how we can transform every function to take continuation arguemnt explicitly
13:21 < joshcryer> First class continuations as I understand it are implicit stack based transfer.
13:21 < joshcryer> That's where continuation passing style comes in, every procedure (function) passes the parameters.
13:22 < kirka> But how does it make optimisations more efficient?
13:24 < joshcryer> I don't really know, to be honest, I was going to BS out an answer, but I just know how you do it, not why architectures tend to find it more efficient.
13:24 < kirka> Ok thanks
13:25 < joshcryer> I found a fascinating article on this let me see if I can find it again.
13:25 < kirka> Ok
13:26 < kirka> I have to write a compiler at least once in my life anyway :)
13:26 < kirka> So that'll be useful information
13:27 < joshcryer> This isn't it but this is a nice overview of the history which is a neat read if you're bored: ftp://ftp.cs.cmu.edu/user/jcr/histcont.pdf
13:27 < kirka> Ok
13:29 < joshcryer> kirka, here it is, it's a really fun read: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~jsobel/c455-c511.updated.txt
13:30 < kirka> Aha, reading it
13:30 < joshcryer> kirka, Mark Feeley did a 90 minute Scheme to C compiler thing, too, if you're interested. But I am sure you want to go it without having your hand being held.
13:30 < kirka> I have read it
13:31 < kirka> And most of SICP
13:31 < kirka> And some other papers
13:31 < kirka> Writing simple compiler doesn't look difficult to me
13:31 < joshcryer> Still haven't completed SICP. I don't think I'm worthy of this channel until I do. ;)
13:32 < kirka> For me it turned out that I knew most of SICP's ideas when I read it
13:32 < kirka> There are some cool left inside though
13:32 < kirka> *cool ideas
13:33 < joshcryer> I'll have to start over.
13:37 < kirka> Inetersting
13:37 < joshcryer> I haven't coded much in the past 5 years I've been coming here.
13:38 < kirka> Brute function calls aren't always necessary
13:38 < kirka> Why?
13:38 < joshcryer> Busy with work, and being too tired to do any real brain activity.
13:39  * kirka wants himself an interesting work
13:40 < joshcryer> Construction is about as least interesting as you can get.
13:41 < kirka> I think being manager or clerk or something is much more boring
13:41 < kirka> Construction is a real job after all
13:42 <@kanzure> clerk/manager is a real job too. do you think people imagine it?
13:42 < kirka> I think that a large percent of management jobs is unnecessary
13:43 < kirka> It can be automated with algorithms and expert systems
13:43 <@kanzure> have you ever done management work?
13:43 < kirka> I know some guys who do
13:43 <@kanzure> maybe they are just really bad at it
13:44 < jrayhawk> 12:41 < kirka> Well, about MNT:
13:44 < jrayhawk> 12:41 < kirka> There should be a forum
13:44 < jrayhawk> kirka: I have a forumish thing up on diyhpl.us now; did you want forum creation powers
13:44 < jrayhawk> http://diyhpl.us/sympa/arc/diyhplus-admin
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13:44 < kirka> jrayhawk I don't know
13:45 < kirka> A mailing list?
13:45 < kirka> kanzure Well, in US economy is different, you are right
13:45 <@kanzure> i said nothing about it being different
13:45 < jrayhawk> A mailing list in the sense that it is able to send people mail, yes
13:45 < jrayhawk> at no point is sending mail actually a requirement
13:46 < kirka> kanzure Here a lot of management jobs are just a way to redistribute oil money
13:46 < jrayhawk> well, except for account signup, i guess
13:46 <@kanzure> "redistributing money" is still a job. you said it wasn't real.
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13:46 < joshcryer> I would agree that cubical work is less interesting, but it offers the opportunity to slack off more, so you can browse pointless websites all day.
13:46 < kirka> By "real" I mean "useful and contributing to economy"
13:46 <@kanzure> you have a very bizarre definition of real :)
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13:47 < joshcryer> Pfft, money isn't real... or it shouldn't be!
13:47 < jrayhawk> producing value vs optimizing value, presumably
13:47 < kirka> We call them "office Plankton"
13:47 <@kanzure> i suspect you've never had a good manager
13:47 < kirka> I'm a student :)
13:48 < jrayhawk> kanzure: instead of the baloneymonster should i just grab your gnusha logo
13:48 < kirka> baloneymonster is weird, heh
13:48 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: yes, but for the record it's ybit's gnusha monster
13:49 < jrayhawk> needs more spinning, but I *guess* it'll do.
13:49 <@kanzure> http://gnusha.org/skdb/images/gnusha.svg
13:49 <@kanzure> http://gnusha.org/skdb/images/gnusha.png
13:49 <@kanzure> "what does any of this have to do with hashing!!"
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13:50 < kirka> joshcryer What do you think of automatic construction? I actually know some guys that make R&D on self-driving bulldozers for one large corporation.
13:52 < joshcryer> kirka, I think it's where we're heading.
13:52 <@kanzure> i doubt it
13:52 <@kanzure> prefab would be more likely to become popular first
13:52 < joshcryer> kirka, China has been playing with pre-fabbed stuff and robots can deal with pre-fabbed easier than not.
13:52 < kirka> Is it slowed down because of low wages? (in Russia most construction workers are immigrants that have 150-250$ per month and are happy with that)
13:54 < joshcryer> kirka, somewhat not related but AU has whole mining operations that are remotely mined, with robots, and only a few on site mechanics who don't do much.
13:55 < joshcryer> kirka, but it seems we have a housing glut where people can afford houses.
13:55 < kirka> In the last decade China workers' wages gone up and manufacturing is becoming more automated (and some companies are outsourcing their monufacturing into Thailand etc were wages are still low)
13:55 < joshcryer> So for it to be developed would require actionable effort as opposed to waiting for the markets to do it, imo.
13:56 < kirka> Cool
13:56 < kirka> By "effort" you mean enterprise or government initiative?
13:57 < joshcryer> kirka, I want to make an automated sewing machine that can take designs and spit out a product. :D
13:57 < joshcryer> kirka, effort being enterprise, government, open hardware initiatives, whatever, but not some supply and demand thing. Because, if you look at China, they can't afford to have their labor pool liquidated, so they won't move past prefab for the time being.
13:57 < kirka> I'm fascinated by automation too
13:58 < kirka> But I think that large scale automation golden age was 1980-1990 when there were thoughts to automate mass-production
13:59 < kirka> Fanuc unmanned factory etc
14:01 < kirka> Maybe I'm wrong
14:03 < joshcryer> Not sure when Fanuc kicked up but their approach is precision control. If you used their method to make, say, t-shirts, every single t-shirt would be identical, down to the thread count.
14:04 < kirka> Position based control is old, I agree. Today's most promising systems use force control and complex feedback (e.g. visual)
14:04 < kirka> http://www.rethinkrobotics.com/index.php/products/baxter/
14:04 < kirka> Rodney Brooks designed a good machine
14:05 < joshcryer> These guys too: http://www.willowgarage.com/
14:05 < kirka> Aha
14:07 < kirka> Actuators and precise mechanics make the largest part of cost (and low production numbers)
14:15 < joshcryer> I just finished reading this paper on Device Human Resolution: http://iihm.imag.fr/publs/2011/INTERACT11_berard_threshold.pdf
14:15 < joshcryer> It sort of confirms basically my thoughts on this subject.
14:17 < joshcryer> You don't need precise actuators or motors for menial tasks but for refined tasks you might. But humans can't get below .01 mm (without time going up) doing refined tasks (like moving a mouse), but doing free space movement or stylus movement, it's much worse (see page 118 of that paper or 12 in your PDF reader).
14:18 < joshcryer> One thing I learned while working on a production line is that the production lines are designed with ones specific accuracy in mind.
14:20 < kirka> I think that in e.g. assembly operations force control greatly helps to guide parts into their designed position (potential well of sort). As in moving screw into a hole - there is no need to know precise position of the hole, you just oush screw and move it in right direction until it snaps
14:20 < kirka> *push
14:21  * joshcryer agrees completely
14:21 < joshcryer> Yep, snapping stuff into place, and the like.
14:21 < kirka> There was some research on assembling compex devices with robotic manipulators
14:22 < kirka> I think we could design our objects to be easily assembled in that manner by robots
14:22 < joshcryer> Many automated factories exploit that, even.
14:22 < joshcryer> But they're hand designed by some smart guy who's been doing industrial engineering for ages.
14:22 < joshcryer> And who probably does trial and error until the system works flawlessly at a high speed.
14:22 < kirka> Maybe there should be automated software for designing like that
14:22 < joshcryer> I know that at our packing plant the printing machine could operate at an absurdly high speed.
14:23 < joshcryer> But if it was miscalibrated just a tiny bit we wound up having to 'toss' whole batches.
14:24 < joshcryer> kirka, that is what I am thinking, but I think it will require a lot of research to figure out how to make said software. ie, you give it a component and it iterates out possible mass production methods.
14:24 < joshcryer> (or at the minimum uses some basic known techniques to get you started)
14:24 < kirka> yes, that could be several man-years of works or more
14:24 < kirka> *work
14:24  * joshcryer agrees
14:25 < kirka> I know some similar software
14:25 < joshcryer> What's it called?
14:25 < kirka> >Kristoffer Kvello, House Designer - using Knowledge Based Engineering and Lisp to automatically design buildings 
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14:25 < joshcryer> Ahh, nice.
14:25 < kirka> http://www.bluethink.com/
14:25 < kirka> Oops
14:25 < kirka> http://weitz.de/eclm2008/Selvaag%20Bluethink%20House%20Designer%20-%20ECLM%202008.ppt
14:26 < kirka> http://weitz.de/eclm2008/
14:26 < kirka> That's probably more simple thing
14:26 < kirka> But they place rooms, doors, windows, plumbing using constrant satisfaction
14:26 < kirka> They place plumbing and cables for manufacturability
14:27 < joshcryer> Will have to use Google Quick View since I haven't got a .ppt reader installed (recently reinstalled Windows).
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14:29 < kirka> If someone solved that problem (or at least made a demo) I think he could be easily hired by Dassault systems or other CAD vendor
14:30 < eudoxia> hey kirka
14:30 < kirka> HI, eudoxia
14:33 < eudoxia> kanzure, what was the last time you saw cpopell here
14:39 < jrayhawk> --- Day changed Fri Nov 23 2012
14:39 < jrayhawk> 16:56 -!- cpopell [ad4908a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.73.8.160] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:39 < jrayhawk> 16:57 -!- cpopell [ad4908a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.73.8.160] has quit [Client Quit]
14:39 < eudoxia> thanks jrayhawk
14:40 < jrayhawk> which i guess is an indication that i should throw a search interface at the logs
14:40 < eudoxia> i considered greping my logs my they are horribly outdated; i should write a script to download them every day
14:43 < jrayhawk> need more efficient distributability.
14:43 < jrayhawk> i should merge them into the diyhpl.us wiki, clearly
14:44 < jrayhawk> that gives me free access to Ikiwiki's Omega interface *and* allows people to just git pull to catch up
14:45 < jrayhawk> it's a flawless plan. right up until we get a loop due to the commit announcement bot.
14:46 < eudoxia> oh i hadn't thought about that, haha
15:00 < kirka> btw eudoxia Quantum celullar automata seems a simple and fast molecular logic technology
15:01 < eudoxia> i'm going to need a source
15:02 < kirka> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_dot_cellular_automaton
15:02 < kirka> It's simple
15:03 < kirka> It's classical actually
15:03 < kirka> In logic sense
15:04 < eudoxia> oh, i get what you mean now, with the classical thing
15:04 < eudoxia> yeah
15:04 < eudoxia> wait a second i'm not so sure
15:04 < kirka> Transitions? :)
15:06 <@kanzure> win 5
15:06 <@kanzure> dfjklajs;
15:16  * kirka sleeps
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15:25 <@kanzure> the thinkpad's capslock key is on the right side of the key (under your hand). why did anyone think this was a good idea?
15:25 <@kanzure> *capslock key light
15:30 < joshcryer> Disable capslock or make it a shift key.
15:51 <@kanzure> if i create a socket under kvm emulation, is that socket going to be owned by the owner of the kvm emulation instance or is it considered owned by the kernel?
16:12 < juri_> i think it will matter how you create it. i'm thinking by the emulation instance owner...
16:12 < juri_> normally, you don't have facilities to just crete sockets that are visible outside of the instance, except through a networking link.
16:13 < juri_> and then, the concept of ownership reflects where the network link terminates.
16:24 -!- AgeVivo [58ab7d94@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.171.125.148] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:25 < AgeVivo> hello, I'm new here and I am coming for a personal project, that I think many here may share:
16:25 < AgeVivo> I would like to play with genetic changes at home
16:26 < AgeVivo> More precisely, I would like to use the now very famous TALE technique on cells
16:27 < AgeVivo> If I am not the only one interested perhaps we could collectively develop a "TALE@home toolkit"
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16:30 < AgeVivo> Some of you who go to Longecity and other places may know that I do big projects to the end (I'm currently in the distributed rodent lifespan test at home, starting with c60) and here I am really interested. So I'm looking for people here to work with cells at home
16:30 < AgeVivo> :
16:30 < AgeVivo> *** Anyone here working with cells at home?? *** to discuss the project with you
16:31 < AgeVivo> *** Anyone interested in TALEs? In genetic modifications? ***
16:31 < AgeVivo> *** Actually... is there anyone here??*** (perhaps I'm alone and not using the chat correctly...)
16:32 < yashgaroth> yeah christmas day isn't exactly a busy one
16:32 < yashgaroth> so uh by TALE do you mean TALENs or what
16:33 < yashgaroth> oh no I guess TALEs are a thing too
16:34 -!- erasmus [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]
16:36 < yashgaroth> but yes I sort of do genetic modification stuff, you could say
16:36 < yashgaroth> did you have a particular gene in mind
16:37 < yashgaroth> (please don't say telomerase)
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16:53 < AgeVivo> yes TALEN
16:54 < yashgaroth> mmkay
16:54 < yashgaroth> what types of cells?
16:56 < AgeVivo> My goal would be establish a system where I can modify some gene I want (foxo3a comes to my mind right now; but it could be anything else) -- even if it takes 6 months then to try to change a gene
16:58 < AgeVivo> cells: ideally a type of stem cell because we could move it to next stages (mice), but if too complex in a first step, then a type of cell that we already are able to work with at home
16:58 < yashgaroth> so then...are you simply transfecting cells to make them express foxo3a? I don't know what data you hope to get from that
16:59 < AgeVivo> yes
16:59 < yashgaroth> growing stem cells at home will be difficult, primary cells even more so
17:00 < AgeVivo> yes. I have mice at home and I have had rats. I was thinking of getting bone marrow but that might be too complex / too specific for a toolkit that others may use at home
17:01 < AgeVivo> so you you suggest a cell line?
17:01 < yashgaroth> well sure there's 293 cells, they're the most standard
17:01 < AgeVivo> What types of cells to people at home use?
17:01 < AgeVivo> 293 cells?
17:01 < yashgaroth> none, because no one does mammalian tissue culture work at home
17:01 < yashgaroth> but 293 would be easiest
17:02 < yashgaroth> and then what, you would subject them to a lot of oxidative stress and see if the transgenic ones apoptose more often? surely someone in a regular lab has done this already
17:03 < AgeVivo> yes but if set smthg at home it would be mlany advantages
17:03 < AgeVivo> for example some persons who are not in wet labs may work on it
17:03 < AgeVivo> (and later work in wet labs: it would be a transition)
17:03 < AgeVivo> others could start their start-up that way
17:03 < AgeVivo> etc.
17:04 < yashgaroth> sure, if they have a laminar flow cabinet
17:04 < AgeVivo> By the way, thank you very much for being here and helping me shape the beginning (!)
17:04 < yashgaroth> no worries, thank you for not being insane (so far)
17:04 < AgeVivo> Concerning the best cells to use, I'm not sure what you meant exactly:
17:05 < AgeVivo> I think that the best for the community would be to work on a type of cell that some people work with at home already -- what would it be?: 293?  Are you using some cells at home?: 293?
17:06 < yashgaroth> I don't do mammalian cell work at home, just in the lab
17:06 < yashgaroth> but 293 cells are by far the easiest to work with if you don't have a full research lab
17:06 < AgeVivo> ok... but, at home, do you do cell work?
17:07 < yashgaroth> in a month or so the local diybio lab will be opening, so I'll be doing some there
17:07 < yashgaroth> not that I plan to do much work with cells outside of my body
17:07 < AgeVivo> nice
17:08 < AgeVivo> I'm close to la paillasse (in France)
17:08 < AgeVivo> I'm close to la paillasse (biohack in France)
17:08 < yashgaroth> oh yes I saw their presentation at the conference
17:08 < AgeVivo> (so you were at the conference 2-3 weeks ago; nice)
17:09 < AgeVivo> Are there other people like you here doing cell work?
17:09 < yashgaroth> the one 6 months ago, in san francisco; was there a more recent one?
17:09 < yashgaroth> here? not really, there's only a few biologists, but the biologists that are here have done cell work yes
17:09 < AgeVivo> yes there was the European DYIbio conference in Paris, 2 or 3 weeks ago
17:10 < yashgaroth> ah, excellent
17:11 < yashgaroth> truthfully, all you need is a laminar flow hood, an 37 degree CO2 incubator, a centrifuge, culture media, a pipette, and a microscope
17:11 < AgeVivo> Myself I have done much work in physiology and lifespan (c elegans, drosophilas, mice and rats, worked on respiration and ageing mostly) but little cell work
17:12 < AgeVivo> Ok. How much do you I need to invest to get that set up, if I use the basic equipment needed for that? 5 000$? more? less?
17:12 < yashgaroth> that depends somewhat on how many cells you want to grow, and I don't know how european prices are
17:12 < AgeVivo> Ideally other people wanting to do wet lab at home would all use the same equipmetn
17:13 < AgeVivo> (use/buy)
17:13 < yashgaroth> usually people will buy whatever's cheapest and available, assuming it functions
17:13 < yashgaroth> a working piece of equipment is interchangeable with any other of its type, theoretically
17:14 < yashgaroth> the laminar flow hood will be your largest expense, though
17:14 < AgeVivo> yes theoretically and yes practically probably too because it is very basic equiment, true
17:15 < AgeVivo> for the laminar flow hood, do I need to connect it to a "tube that goes out on the house"? or are there laminar flow hoods with filters to regularly replace?
17:16 < yashgaroth> nope they're self-contained, it's not like a fume hood; but yes you will need to replace the HEPA filters occasionally
17:16 < AgeVivo> great
17:16 < yashgaroth> keep it in a fairly clean (i.e. non-dusty) room and it's good to go for at least a year per filter
17:17 < AgeVivo> If I want to buy it at sigma-aldrich for example I guess they will ask me for a lab agreement number I guess... (?)
17:17 < yashgaroth> oh no don't buy it new, get one off of ebay or craigslist or something
17:18 < AgeVivo> ebay I know. craigslist I had never hear about. I will ask.
17:18 < AgeVivo> ebay I know. craigslist I had never hear about. I will see
17:18 < yashgaroth> again I don't know how it is in france/europe, especially with all their weird laws about genetic modification
17:19 < AgeVivo> In France it is forbidden (ethics law) to do genetic modification
17:19 < yashgaroth> heh yeah
17:19 < AgeVivo> unless you have a special agreement
17:19 < yashgaroth> but I'm quite sure most places in the US will ship to europe, though for a 1 meter hood the shipping will be quite expensive
17:20 < AgeVivo> since it is forbidden I am doing it at home rather than doing it at La Paillase (official biohack lab)
17:20 < yashgaroth> of course
17:20 < yashgaroth> but I'd say, roughly, $5000 for the whole thing is not unreasonable
17:20 < AgeVivo> o
17:20 < AgeVivo> ok
17:21 < yashgaroth> 2500 for the hood, 500 for a centrifuge, 200 microscope, 100 pipette, and the rest on the incubator
17:21 < AgeVivo> one can buy a laminar flow hood for normal cell culture, right? or even simple chemistry, right? So this should be fully authorized
17:21 < yashgaroth> they will not assume you are doing genetic modification, but it doesn't really have a use outside of cell work
17:22 < yashgaroth> chemistry would be a fume hood
17:22 < AgeVivo> ok ok.
17:22 < AgeVivo> Would you advise me to buy all that on ebay/craiglist?
17:22 < yashgaroth> try to price it on normal retail websites first, if it's too expensive go to ebay
17:23 < AgeVivo> normal retail websites first: what names would you have in mind right now?
17:23 < yashgaroth> just google the item and browse for a while, I suppose
17:24 < yashgaroth> microscopes and pipettes and centrifuges, it doesn't really matter where you buy
17:24 < yashgaroth> your biggest problem will be buying culture media
17:24 < AgeVivo> When I was working in wet labs I used to buy most things at sigma-aldrich. does it make sense here for all this?
17:25 < yashgaroth> sigma will not sell to private users
17:25 < AgeVivo> yes, that's what I had in mind...
17:25 < yashgaroth> maybe they will sell to la paillasse...maybe
17:25 < AgeVivo> could you give me an exemple of retailer that you think would sell to private users?
17:26 <@kanzure> ebay
17:26 < yashgaroth> carolina.com will sell some things, openbiotech.com has 293 cells (but not media for some reason)
17:26 < AgeVivo> ok
17:26 < yashgaroth> for equipment you don't need to buy from biotech retailers
17:27 < yashgaroth> in fact I would recommend against it, since they will charge way too much for equipment
17:28 < yashgaroth> again that's why I say media will be your biggest problem to buy, since no one sells that to private users
17:29 < yashgaroth> I suppose you could experiment with extracting your own serum, but that's a whole project by itself
17:29 < AgeVivo> To recap and because I am not sure of what you mean exactly in the last sentences, for example I should buy a laminar flow hood from ebay, 293 cells from openbiotech.com, bovine featal media from carolina.com,
17:29 <@kanzure> parahsailin has a bovine serum project in the works
17:29 < yashgaroth> I don't think anyone sells media, but I may be wrong
17:30 <@kanzure> i think his plan is to do some cell line that generates the serum instead of harvesting from livestock
17:30 < AgeVivo> In my lab we used to buy media at sigma
17:30 < yashgaroth> yes but sigma will not sell to you, and maybe not to la paillasse
17:31 <@kanzure> probably, you mean.. you should still try sigma anyway.
17:31 < yashgaroth> yeah
17:31 <@kanzure> AgeVivo: since you plan to incorporate anyway, you should just incorporate and get the agreement in writing with sigma
17:31 < AgeVivo> To recap and because I am not sure of what you mean exactly in the last sentences, for example I should buy a laminar flow hood from ebay, 293 cells from openbiotech.com, media (bovine featal?) from carolina.com, centrifuge/microscope/pipette from ?? (ebay?) ?
17:31 < yashgaroth> all equipment from ebay
17:31 < yashgaroth> 293 cells from openbiotech, and media from ???
17:32 < AgeVivo> kanzure you were saying that instead of buying media there is an alternative?
17:32 < yashgaroth> it would be an interesting project to adapt a 293 line to adult human serum, that's for sure
17:33 <@kanzure> no it is just parahsailin's project. theoretically you can generate bovine media without the livestock. but it doesn't exist at the moment.
17:33 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: what i need to do is go meet myself a rancher here in texas. damn.
17:33 < AgeVivo> of course my goal is to minimize the number of additional projects along the way in order to finish the project in 2 years rather than 20 years ;-)
17:34 < yashgaroth> go find yourself an abattoir owner
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17:35 < yashgaroth> hey now, being able to grow cells off of your own blood would be great for diybio
17:35 < AgeVivo> not sure if you are talking to me
17:35 <@kanzure> hey maybe our friends at the NRA know a good abattoir
17:35 < yashgaroth> both of you, I suppose
17:35 < AgeVivo> "kanzure> i think his plan is to do some cell line that generates the serum instead of harvesting from livestock" what did you mean?
17:35 <@kanzure> what do you mean what do i mean
17:35 <@kanzure> bleh
17:35 < yashgaroth> many cell lines, especially primary and/or stem cells, require factors found in fetal bovine serum
17:36 < AgeVivo> appearently you thought I wanted to do smthg that actually does not require to buy media (nor adapt human media)
17:36 <@kanzure> no
17:36 < AgeVivo> did I understand well? if so, what is this smthg?
17:36 < AgeVivo> oh ok
17:37 < yashgaroth> let's focus on defined synthetic 293 media for now, since that's what you'll need
17:37 < AgeVivo> oh, abatoir for the blood for the media. ok
17:37 < yashgaroth> yes
17:38 < AgeVivo> I'm fully ok on using "defined synthetic 293 media for now, since that's what you'll need" : it seems the most direct
17:38 <@kanzure> except you don't have it.
17:38 < yashgaroth> heh
17:38 < yashgaroth> and it will be the most difficult thing for you to get
17:38 < AgeVivo> actually, in the end what I would like it to modify mouse or rat mesenchymal stem cells
17:39 < yashgaroth> ah, then you will probably need to get into fetal bovine serum
17:39 < yashgaroth> oooor fetal mouse serum
17:39 <@kanzure> congratulations, you get to become a baby killer
17:39  * kanzure gives out party hats
17:39 < yashgaroth> man I wonder how much serum you can even get from a fetal mouse...like, 1 mL?
17:40 < AgeVivo> with rats, couldn't I have rats from whom I regularly take blood?
17:40 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: obviously this calls for a fetus farm
17:40 < AgeVivo> does it needs to be fetus?
17:40 < yashgaroth> yes, but the point of fetal serum is that it has many growth factors that are less present in adult serum, that promote growth
17:40 < AgeVivo> ok
17:41 < yashgaroth> I don't do any stem cell work myself, since stem cells are a huge hassle to work with, so I can't give you many specifics there
17:41 <@kanzure> parahsailin figures that you can express those proteins and factors through an engineered cell line, but again this doesn't exist yet. but ultimately it would be far less work than killing billions of liters of fetuses.
17:41 < AgeVivo> so I'll ask sigma for serum. I'll tell them the truth: I previously worked at the pasteur institute and at inserm, not anymore but I'd like to develop a system at home such that I could do a start up
17:42 < AgeVivo> we'll see their answer
17:42 <@kanzure> you should just ask sigma what sort of incorporation paperwork they need to see
17:42 < yashgaroth> they will likely not want the risk
17:42 < AgeVivo> "incorporation paperwork" = ?
17:42 < AgeVivo> administrative stuff?
17:42 <@kanzure> proof of business
17:42 < yashgaroth> kanzure, these poor socialist europeans can't just start businesses
17:42 < AgeVivo> ok
17:43 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: elaborate?
17:43 < AgeVivo> yahsgarott: yes, absolutely. they kill innovation everyday
17:43 < yashgaroth> I imagine it's quite a lot more difficult than here; have to bribe the local commune, wait 10 years, etc
17:44 < AgeVivo> the strange thing is that they wonder why the USA is so innovative and not Europe, and why it's the crisis and what they can do about it.
17:44 <@kanzure> i've been trhough the process a few times.. basically you wipe your ass with some toilet paper and you're incorporated.
17:44 <@kanzure> pretty simple
17:45 < yashgaroth> ah, but did you try it in le france?
17:45 <@kanzure> nope
17:45 < yashgaroth> especially since they're so paranoid about genetics work
17:45 < AgeVivo> France is worse than most European countries. It has the highest number of ethical comitee per lab
17:46 < AgeVivo> but I'll try
17:46 < yashgaroth> haha ethical committees, fucking europe
17:46 < yashgaroth> I feel your pain
17:47 < yashgaroth> at worst, when we get the lab working here, I can try buying some media powder and sending it to you
17:47 < AgeVivo> the worst I feel, is not that they stop innovation at its root. it is that terminally ill persons are not allowed to try new potential treatments unless they can fit in a specific existing call for trial (but they die before)
17:48 < yashgaroth> well that's true in the states as well, but it is stricter in europe
17:48 < AgeVivo> this is because of ethics. I have a friend who is in several ethical comitees linked with cancer, and they refuse all new therapeutics to terminally ill patients. don't ask me why
17:48 < AgeVivo> any I digress. Thank you very much.
17:49 < AgeVivo> I'll have a look and come back.
17:49 < AgeVivo> Are you here often?
17:49 < AgeVivo> my email is longevity@agevivo.com
17:49 < yashgaroth> all the time, and I have a holiday this whole week so I'll just be around
17:50 < AgeVivo> wow. great
17:50 < yashgaroth> hey I'm just glad to have someone here interested in biology that isn't talking constantly and ignorantly about telomerase
17:51 < yashgaroth> generally I'll be around here +/- 6 hours from now, most days
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17:51 < AgeVivo> great. I'll be happy to discuss with you, know what you are doing etc.
17:51 < yashgaroth> excellent
17:52 < AgeVivo> Since you are used to this place: I was wondering if there could be money to help me finance a toolkit for transfection at home, that then other persons could do as well. But I don't know if that's feasible/I'm new here/it's certainly very preliminary.
17:52 < AgeVivo> So perhaps to see with the organisers, at some time, I don't know.
17:52 < yashgaroth> surely longecity has some rich old people?
17:52 < jrayhawk> kanzure: if you think that's bad, the X1 Carbon doesn't even *have* a capslock light
17:53 < jrayhawk> i wonder if that's true for the other 30 generation laptops
17:53 < AgeVivo> yes, true too. I've had 500$ to send C60 in olive oild to pet owners throughout the world.
17:54 < AgeVivo> By the way, if anyone is willing here to have rodent pets at home throughout their lives and contribute to life extension, write to longevity@agevivo.com
17:54 < AgeVivo> Ok, have to go now.
17:55 < AgeVivo> All the very best. Happy to have found that place! Bye!
17:55 < yashgaroth> au revoir and all that
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18:11 < AgeVivo> Coming back... (I should sleep but it's too interesting) rather than work on mice I could perhaps work with fat and blood from me
18:11 < yashgaroth> sure
18:12 < AgeVivo> The trouble is that I really don't want to take risks for my health of course
18:12 < AgeVivo> I'd have to extract fat
18:12 < yashgaroth> well blood is easy to extract, fat less so...where's that video of the guy doing diy liposuction
18:12 < AgeVivo> and blood
18:12 < AgeVivo> "guy doing diy liposuction": really?
18:13 < yashgaroth> mhm
18:13 < yashgaroth> gets a vacuum pump and a needle and just goes at it
18:13 < AgeVivo> I'd like to see it
18:13 < yashgaroth> oh and some painkillers I think/hope
18:14 < yashgaroth> it's been a few years since I saw it, will take a look around
18:15 < AgeVivo> Because that's actually the best to me: extract a little human abdominal fat
18:15 < AgeVivo> From there I'd need to extract mesenchymal stem cells
18:15 < yashgaroth> there's always subcutaneous fat, that's everywhere and relatively easy to access
18:16 < AgeVivo> I'd guess htat's another story but it's essentially a question of cost and it's directly my allee so... why not
18:17 < yashgaroth> yeah the cost will be a lot higher than 293 cells
18:17 < AgeVivo> (in my last sentence I was talking about getting mesenchymal stem cells from fat)
18:17 < AgeVivo> You know, if I can do that, it would be marvellous to me
18:17 < yashgaroth> oh, absolutely
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18:19 < AgeVivo> By coincidence would you know 1) how to extract abdominal fat at home (I've actually done much surgery in rats, including very complex cardiopulmonary surgery, but when it comes to humans and especially me I feel completely newcomer)
18:20 < AgeVivo> 2) what additional equipemetn to buy to filter cells from the fat?
18:21 < AgeVivo> 3) How to take blood? (when that's certainly a stupid question; I'l ask a retired surgeon friend who will teach me)
18:21 < AgeVivo> ?
18:21 < yashgaroth> well 1) would be a syringe and some good aim, and 2) I'm not sure; fat is all cells but since I assume you mean stem cells, either flow cytometry or maybe fluorescence microscopy, 3) is also a syringe
18:23 < AgeVivo> nice. so I have to see the price for flow cytometry, try both the mice axes and "me" axis and come back here when I'm more aware
18:24 < yashgaroth> haha flow cytometry is a quarter million dollars
18:24 < yashgaroth> apparently you can do some affinity pulldown, but I've never done that with cells, just proteins & dna
18:24 < AgeVivo> Thank you for the interesting discussion. If you think I can help in exchange in some way don't hesitate to ask
18:24 < jrayhawk> man, 'rat surgeon' sounds awesomely mad sciency
18:24 < yashgaroth> like I say, I'm just happy to talk biology
18:24 <@kanzure> you could do a microfluidic flow cytometer, but it's an entire separate project. but it wouldn't cost $250k in parts.
18:25 < AgeVivo> haha oh hahaha. Have to go. Bye!
18:26 < AgeVivo> "'rat surgeon' sounds awesomely mad sciency" Yes in the past I was doing what I used to call "bionic rats". I'll described another time (not as great as it sounds)
18:29 < jrayhawk> now i feel inadequate
18:29 <@kanzure> it's okay jrayhawk, you can make up for it with rat fetus surgery
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18:31 < brownies> ...did he seriously come in here asking for advice on DIY cosmetic surgery?
18:32 < yashgaroth> nah, investigating transgenic overexpression of a tumor suppressor gene
18:32 < yashgaroth> that video of the guy doing diy lipo was totally fucked up, like 15 minutes of him muddling around in his abdomen with a huge needle and then almost passing out after
18:33 < yashgaroth> I think it got taken down, or at least that's a safe assumption
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18:33 < jrayhawk> was it one of the BME/Extreme guys
18:33 < yashgaroth> don't think so, at least I didn't see any body mod stuff on him...then again the video was quite low quality back then
18:34 <@kanzure> yeah, you might as well find the link now
18:34 < yashgaroth> it was literally like 6-8 years ago I think
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18:34 < yashgaroth> kind of thing that sticks with you, though
18:34 <@kanzure> i bet SA remembers
18:35 < yashgaroth> probably where it got linked from, yeah
18:35 < jrayhawk> it's sad that stileproject died
18:35 < yashgaroth> holy shit I've been regged on SA for 9 years
18:35 < jrayhawk> newb
18:35 <@kanzure> registered for 0 years, 0 months, 0 days. i'm going for a record.
18:35 < yashgaroth> hey that was the soonest I could get a credit card
18:35 < jrayhawk> They weren't charging for accounts for the first few years
18:36 < yashgaroth> I think I missed it and then finally signed up when the bittorrent barnyard was alive
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18:38 < yashgaroth> ah well, anyway this french guy seems fairly legit
18:38 <@kanzure> longecity has a handful of community projects that try their hardest to do something meaningful
18:39 <@kanzure> i think c60/pets is one of them
18:40 <@kanzure> http://www.longecity.org/forum/forum/295-projects-teams/
18:40 < yashgaroth> man good luck shooting olive oil into your dog's peritoneal
18:41 <@kanzure> they also have some weird project contributions/points system
18:48 < joshcryer> -NickServ- Registered : Oct 13 07:26:19 2004 (8 years, 10 weeks, 5 days, 19:22:01 ago)
18:49 < joshcryer> I got kanzure beat by two weeks! Woot.
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18:54 < joshcryer> I think longecity has way too much shit going on and it's all spread out.
18:55 < joshcryer> At least LW tries to stay focused.
18:57 <@kanzure> on ponies?
18:57 < yashgaroth> on ayn rand's figurative dick
19:03 <@kanzure> plos.org hacked (probably xss or wordpress)
19:03 <@kanzure> http://www.plos.org/wp-content/themes/plos/README
19:04 <@kanzure> http://www.plos.org/media/downloads/
19:05 <@kanzure> dayum. http://www.plos.org/wp-includes/
19:05 < yashgaroth> I'll take your word on that
19:06 <@kanzure> http://www.plos.org/license.txt
19:07 < yashgaroth> idgi are these files not supposed to be public or something
19:09 <@kanzure> yes
19:10 < yashgaroth> ah
19:10 <@kanzure> i'm curious where the xss exploit is though
19:10 <@kanzure> google is blocking the site in chrome
19:10 <@kanzure> http://safebrowsing.clients.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plosone.org%2F&client=googlechrome&hl=en-US
19:11 < yashgaroth> aw dang it I went and visited the main page
19:11 < yashgaroth> it's probably fine, right? I mean it's not liBUY CHEAP V1@GR@ ONLINE
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19:20 < joshcryer> You've been infected yashgaroth.
19:20 < yashgaroth> hello friend i have a very intriguing business opportunity for you
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20:14 < wrldpc> ayn rand got a big ol' ass/ayn rand got a big ol' ass/ayn rand got a big ol' rand got a big ol' rand got a big ol' ass
20:14 < wrldpc> I should record a lascivious ayn rand track for the lulz.
20:24 < joshcryer> Just when I think LW is OK but a bunch of elitist smart underachievers ya'll drop the Ayn Rand thing on me. I read "In Defense of Ayn Rand" and almost threw up a little. At least I could agree with Eliezer on "The Guardians of Ayn Rand." Except I disagree that Newton's religious views were the most terrible (logical conclusion from "allowing women to vote"), it was his attacks on
20:24 < joshcryer> counterfiters that was most appalling.
20:25 < joshcryer> Note: I do think women should be able to vote, but Newton's religious views didn't change the landscape, his actual actions as far as catching counterfieters did.
20:29 < joshcryer> As far as "In Defense of Ayn Rand"'s "rational ostracization," I would only conclude that those who behave this way will be rendered low information states since their processes are incompatible with a larger data web, even in a T3 civilization (barring FTL).
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23:32 <@kanzure> does everyone run everything through valgrind these days?
23:33 < abetusk> under linux, written in c, that's what I do
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--- Log closed Wed Dec 26 00:00:11 2012