--- Log opened Mon Jan 07 00:00:23 2013
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04:52 < archels> http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=kilocycle%2Ckilohertz&year_start=1900&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=
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07:17 <@kanzure> leafblowers :(
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08:41 <@kanzure> On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 6:40 AM, Petros Amiridis <support@github.com> wrote:
08:41 <@kanzure> > If you are willing to create a video that demonstrates the issues, we could investigate further.
08:41 <@kanzure> wtf github
08:41 <@kanzure> i should just rick roll them
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09:57 < nmz787> http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2011/06/21/how-to-fit-an-elephant/
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10:22 < juri_> the proper response is to use gitorious. ;)
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10:45 < nmz787> https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/66041_4437827936711_1687120021_n.jpg
10:46 < nmz787> juri_: how does gitorious compare to github?
11:05 <@kanzure> gitorious has less users and a worse ui
11:05 <@kanzure> but more of its software is open source. github has only open sourced a limited amount of its infrastructure.
11:06 <@kanzure> bitbucket is an okay alternative to github but also has less users or potential contributors
11:37 < Lucas_> hey there
11:38 < chris_99> i wish github had statistics on the # of checkouts etc.
11:41 <@fenn> blueback09 writes, "Hi,Are you still developing SKDB?"
11:42 <@fenn> he's openalia.wordpress.com
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11:54 <@kanzure> he also emailed me that
11:54 <@kanzure> but then he never replied
12:00 < archels> http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/vaop/naam/abs/npp20132a.html
12:00 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Fluoxetine-Induced%20Cortical%20Adult%20Neurogenesis.pdf
12:00 < archels> Fluoxetine-Induced Cortical Adult Neurogenesis
12:01 < archels> paperbot: lolwat
12:01 <@fenn> does anyone get what this paper is about? http://arxiv.org/abs/1211.0545
12:01 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://arxiv.org/abs/1211.0545
12:01 <@kanzure> ..
12:01 <@fenn> hah
12:01 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Negative%20Absolute%20Temperature%20for%20Motional%20Degrees%20of%20Freedom.pdf
12:01 <@fenn> oh it's just slow
12:02 <@kanzure> archels: :)
12:02 < archels> fenn: I've seen some follow ups on that on blog posts and [tt]
12:02 < archels> could find links?
12:02 < archels> http://www.empiricalzeal.com/2013/01/05/what-the-dalai-lama-can-teach-us-about-temperatures-below-absolute-zero/
12:04 < nmz787> crazy weird physucs
12:06 <@kanzure> archels: paperbot needs other ways to access papers for when it fails. do you have an account or access you could contribtue?
12:22 < archels> Oh, I would be happy to find papers for people if they give me a poke, but I won't hook up my university accounts to a bot, sorry.
12:22 <@kanzure> damn.
12:23 < archels> Is it all going through your account currently?
12:24 <@kanzure> no, we're hosted at pdx.edu and have had access all along
12:24 <@kanzure> i just.. uh. forgot.
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12:28 < archels> oh, neat. Well, if you ever need something, let me know. ;)
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12:29 <@kanzure> no thanks.
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12:31 < archels> paper-related that is ;)
12:34 <@kanzure> no thanks.
12:35 <@kanzure> it's just not efficient if i have to contact hundreds of people just to get one paper. i'd rather just write some code once to do it.
12:36 < archels> Well, there are some 56 people here but yourself, that puts you more than halfway there. ;)
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13:09 < nmz787> kanzure umb got back to me
13:10 < wrldpc> does anyone recall the name of the german-based design collective that did the modular housing stuff and the seed mortar (launched plant seeds or something) -- radical ecological group.  German.
13:10 < wrldpc> I think they're German.  I thought it was Core77 but that's not it … it's something 'like' that.
13:10 < wrldpc> Core42 or something.
13:11 <@fenn> wrldpc: http://www.n55.dk
13:11 < wrldpc> w0000t thanks fenn!
13:11 <@fenn> i'm a big fan of n55
13:12 <@fenn> i want to build something like this http://www.n55.dk/MANUALS/BOAT/BOAT.html
13:12 < chris_99> which one is the seed mortar? that sounds intriguing
13:13 <@fenn> eh some political bullshit, i don't really care so much for it http://www.n55.dk/MANUALS/N55ROCKETSYSTEM/N55ROCKETSYSTEM.html
13:15 < chris_99> ah heh, i thought it'd be more like a potato cannon that shot a load of seeds
13:16 <@fenn> waste of a good rocket
13:17 < chris_99> i just got the engine to make a little hybrid rocket using one of those tiny nitrous oxide cartridges
13:18 <@fenn> does that work? i'd have thought the weight to fuel ratio would be too low
13:18 <@fenn> er, fuel to weight ratio
13:20 < chris_99> it just uses plastic or a paper tube for the fuel, which isn't too heavy
13:20 < chris_99> i haven't tested it yet though
13:27 <@fenn> wrldpc: n55 isnt about ecology, it's about flattening power hierarchies
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13:36 < wrldpc> Copy that.
13:39 < wrldpc> how do you divorce the mission statement from the political ideology.  they're obviously a marxist lenninist communist socialist group who are ecologically minded.
13:39 < wrldpc> unless payloads of genetically modified superweed seed payloads are just a means to an end.
13:39 < wrldpc> i guess it's more anarchy than anything.
13:39 < wrldpc> the modular housing units smack of communism.
13:41 <@fenn> yes it is explicitly communist, but without invoking the historical baggage of soviet russia
13:41 < nmz787> ". To counter the threat of genetic pollution posed by biotech firms, persons are encouraged to equip themselves with superweeds to potentially sabotage commercial GM crop fields. SuperWeeds are distributed by Heath Bunting, www.irational.org/cta/superweed/"
13:41 < nmz787> wtf
13:41 < wrldpc> LOL
13:41 < nmz787> that's horrible
13:41 < wrldpc> agreed
13:42 <@fenn> i think there's a bit of playful disinfo there
13:42 < nmz787> http://www.irational.org/cgi-bin/language/language.pl?url=http://www.irational.org/cta/superweed/kit.html
13:43 < nmz787> thanks to monsanto and tested by Novartis... at the botton
13:43 <@fenn> "capable of producing a genetically mutant superweed" means they think that if you put these two plants together and let them stir around, they'll somehow magically cross pollinate and make a superweed
13:43 < nmz787> yeah
13:43 < wrldpc> lulz
13:43 < wrldpc> like jason silva's idea sex thing.
13:43 < eudoxia> oh god not that guy again
13:43 < wrldpc> "ideas have sex, maaaan."
13:44 <@fenn> "Whatever you do, the threat is often as effective as the execution."
13:44 < wrldpc> isn't that the definition of the ultimate weapon?
13:44 < wrldpc> bah that sounds awfully philosophical to me.
13:45 < wrldpc> it's all great until they call your bluff and the weeds don't copulate.
13:45 < wrldpc> I met a materials scientist on my flight from Japan and sat next to a design student from RISD on the flight back here.  http://energy.umich.edu/energy-research/faculty-old/aniruddha-deb/
13:45 < superkuh> Why would they bother interacting with you? They'll just have the local federal government raid you and put the fear of god in.
13:45 < wrldpc> Deb's dream is a $19k Li-ion car.
13:46 < wrldpc> he did some research on zinc deficiency and pancreatic cancer.
13:47 < wrldpc> and was specializing in producing some kind of ceramic membrane for use in lithium ion batteries to factor their efficiency.  some performance doubling.
13:47 < wrldpc> the RISD student is thoroughly indoctrinated by the old guard manufacturing model.
13:48 < wrldpc> I brought up makerbot and the 3d printers and he brushed it off, "that will never replace industrial manufacturing."
13:49 < eudoxia> hnnnghhhh
13:49 < wrldpc> I'm like uhh
13:50 < wrldpc> what about industrial lathes, CNC machines?  etc?  I don't know, he was on his way to Osaka to study from a master in the production of traditional japanese woodblocks for printmaking.
13:50 <@fenn> but CNC woodblocks will never replace laser printers~
13:52 < wrldpc> yes but his point is that the current paradigmatic shift loses what he calls "soul" -- he was justifying all of the time they wasted teaching him outdated or obsolete ways of doing things.
13:52 <@fenn> i have this vague feeling of how everything around me is just disposable crap, it doesn't really matter how it's made because it will be thrown away in ten years regardless
13:52 < wrldpc> Exactly!
13:53 < wrldpc> I brought up that point "well it threatens the chinese manufacturing base for garbage trash."
13:54 < wrldpc> He likes the Germans of course.  Everyone likes German design.  He said "something is lost in the current design process."  they still had this kid modeling in clay.
13:54 <@fenn> i'm somewhat disappointed in what happened with arduino. now a first-gen arduino is basically useless because it's too much effort to learn how to use it, even though it's functionally identical for the typical use case
13:54 < wrldpc> clay then the foam, then the styrene
13:54 < wrldpc> http://alecbabala.com/
13:56 < wrldpc> wait wut
13:56 <@fenn> wrong link?
13:56 < wrldpc> how many generations?
13:56 < wrldpc> no that's him
13:56 <@fenn> there are something like five generations of arduino now
13:57 < wrldpc> He expressed a desire to join the marines and "apply my design skills there" -- the tragedy is there is no space for that.  The Marine Corps stopped designing for itself years ago. That's all outsourced … then the outsourced companies interface with the war fighters to revise the designs when the designers should be the war fighters.
13:58 < wrldpc> there is the marine corps research center but those projects are limited.
13:58 <@fenn> government institutions are not known for their innovative culture
13:58 < wrldpc> ^
13:58 < wrldpc> oh my god
13:59 < wrldpc> we have these white fiberglass coffins we keep the AIM-9X missiles in.
13:59 < wrldpc> complete lack of design.
14:00 < wrldpc> there are like 24 of these cheap metal hasps that line the outside of the coffin to secure the lid to the container and whoever designed those looked for the most antagonistic form for human fingers to manipulate.
14:01 < wrldpc> it is by no means high-speed design.
14:02 < nmz787> fenn what do you mean about the old arduino being hard to use?
14:04 <@fenn> nmz787: now everyone "needs" an uno because otherwise you'd have to install USB drivers :\
14:05 <@fenn> i guess i'm mostly just annoyed that reprap firmware doesn't work/fit on old models
14:07 <@fenn> how will the open hardware movement ever settle on any sort of standard kit?
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14:08 <@fenn> by the time people are settling in with beagleboard 1 and software finally works etc, beagleboard 2 comes out and everyone starts making new projects using that instead
14:10 <@fenn> arduino is relatively more stable because there's less to go wrong, less complexity and less stupid IP issues
14:11 <@fenn> i'm just frustrated by the 20 brands of tomato sauce
14:13 < chris_99> you could always just use a PIC / AVR straight, then theres only two
14:14 <@fenn> oh but it's not just two
14:14 < chris_99> two types of programmers though ;)
14:14 <@fenn> there are literally hundreds of different PIC chips, and at least a dozen programmers for them
14:14 <@fenn> at least AVR has standardized its programming interface
14:14 < chris_99> Pickit 3 will programm all pic chips
14:15 < chris_99> AVR is actually less standard afaik
14:15 <@fenn> how so?
14:15 < chris_99> it has more more different types of programming interfaces
14:15 <@fenn> you mean ICSP vs bootloader? or just pinouts?
14:16 < chris_99> i mean some AVRs use JTAG, some use others
14:16 <@fenn> nobody uses JTAG
14:16 < chris_99> ?
14:17 <@fenn> sure if you've got it set up already why not, but i really doubt anybody goes out of the way to use JTAG instead of ICSP for no reason
14:18 <@fenn> also, it's not a requirement. any chip can be programmed with ICSP
14:18 <@fenn> i don't really want to get into a religious war here, just whining about the lack of preferred numbers, and the lack of any sort of process to get rid of cruft
14:19 < chris_99> i just thought when i spoke to the guys in AVR there was different types of interfaces used in programming AVRs
14:19 < chris_99> but i could well be wrong
14:23 <@fenn> the only way to "upgrade" a piece of hardware is to throw the old version away
14:23 <@fenn> this really is the big difference between hardware development and software development
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14:23 < chris_99> yeah, i don't like that idea of throwing away stuff like that
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14:24 < chris_99> you could have one section of the project, as a breadboard ;)
14:24 <@fenn> you're thinking of electronics, but i mean anything made of stuff
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14:25 <@fenn> buildings, bicycles, robots
14:25 <@fenn> the answer really is "design for disassembly"
14:25 <@fenn> but the most promising technologies are not modular at all
14:26 <@fenn> you can't re-use different parts of a microchip
14:26 < ThomasEgi> actually. you can.
14:26 < ThomasEgi> but not as a conmuser
14:26 < ThomasEgi> *consumer
14:27 < ThomasEgi> most microcontrollers and chips are highly modular. you can combine whatever functionality you need and manufacture a new chip from it in a very short ammount of time.
14:27 <@fenn> the chip components might have standard interfaces on the schematic level, but by the time it's rendered as a mask all the functionality gets scrambled together
14:28 <@fenn> "and manufacture a new chip from it" is exactly what i'm saying
14:28 <@fenn> the software is reusable, the hardware is not
14:28 < ThomasEgi> well that's the price you pay for miniaturisation
14:28 < chris_99> FPGAs are "re-usable" i guess
14:28 <@fenn> it applies to large scale objects as well
14:28 <@fenn> it's often more expensive to renovate a building for a new purpose than to just build a new one
14:30 <@fenn> most buildings are designed for human occupation, so that's not a very good example
14:31 <@fenn> chris_99: right, fpga is starting to break down the barrier between hardware and software. i'd like to see more work using this philosophy
14:31 <@fenn> a breadboard is very similar in spirit
14:31 <@fenn> protein synthesis is another example
14:32 <@fenn> in all these cases we sacrifice some performance for the sake of modularity and reusability
14:33 <@fenn> the n55 boat/platform/house is a good example of a mesoscale modular system
14:35 < chris_99> i guess it's not in the advantage of consumer hardware manufacturers to make things re-usable
14:36 <@fenn> but then we have things like arduino, which are essentially glorified breadboards that aren't disassembly-friendly
14:36 <@fenn> is arduino a consumer hardware manufacturer?
14:37 < chris_99> hmm good point, don't know about that
14:37 < chris_99> are all arduinos pin for pin compatible
14:37 < chris_99> with the shields
14:37 <@fenn> so are ATX motherboards
14:39 <@fenn> it's hard to convince people that the reprap threaded rod system is better than a lasercut plywood or lasercut acrylic, when those materials are both such a small part of the overall system cost
14:40 <@fenn> it would be great if we could use discarded CD-ROM motors or whatever, but here again the lack of standardization bites back
14:41 <@fenn> so we're stuck buying off the shelf stepper motors just to have a design that is documented
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14:42 <@kanzure> nmz787: what did umb say?
14:44 <@kanzure> fenn: is there an arduino package manager? that seems like a rather glaring oversight.
14:45 < chris_99> you could always RE the stepper motor though, but yeah it'd take time
14:45 <@kanzure> i think you can apt-get whatever-lib dash dev packages, but i doubt there's arduino things being distributed in -dev form
14:46 <@fenn> a majority of the code is included in the arduino package itself
14:47 <@fenn> filesystem code, serial protocols, etc
14:47 <@kanzure> a stdlib is enough for nayone
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15:19 < juri_> my reprap has a lot of reccled parts. standardization isn't the problem, its that the language used for part design does not easily let you say "this part was made for a nema17, but we have a nema21. recompile.'
15:19 < juri_> thats why i've become a fan of implicitcad; the language itsself makes such changes easier.
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15:20 < juri_> now i just need to learn the bloody language, and they need to finish off 'constraints' support.
15:33 <@kanzure> "Due to export restrictions, TokenKey requires an EZproxy license"
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16:15 <@kanzure> hmmm
16:15 <@kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure?tab=contributions
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17:12 <@kanzure> On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Arnold <arnoldsander@gmail.com> wrote:
17:12 <@kanzure> > any current public effort`s to extend DIYbio's information base beyond this
17:12 <@kanzure> > google group? (this group seems to be the only place left where I seem to be
17:12 <@kanzure> > able to find information that is current)
17:12 <@kanzure> i wonder if my emails are just being filtered at this point
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17:41 < eudoxia> meanwhile at the DHS' secret underground volcano fortress...
17:41 < eudoxia> "he knows! abort abort"
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18:51 <@kanzure> well this is enraging https://github.com/kennethreitz/requests/issues/1074
18:51 <@kanzure> they broke proxy support and are blaming it on another library :|
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19:34 < nmz787> kanzure: umb said i had a student record created, but said i would get another email with a username or ID #, which I haven't got yet, I emailed their omputer support team so maybe I'll hear tomorrow
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21:20 < joehot> .wa 1+1
21:20 < paperbot> 1+1;2;two;| +->-> = ->, 1->->1->->2;age 6:  3.2 seconds -> age 8:  1.8 seconds -> age 10:  1.2 seconds -> , age 18:  0.83 seconds, (ignoring concentration, repetition, variations in education, etc.)
21:20 < joehot> hah
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21:21 < joehot> paperbot: tell kanzure cool disable friend
21:21 < paperbot> joehot: I'll pass that on when kanzure is around.
21:22 < yashgaroth> paperbot: where's my damn bagel
21:23 <@kanzure> fjkdla;adkfjadlfjklad
21:23 < paperbot> kanzure: 05:21Z <joehot> tell kanzure cool disable friend
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21:24 < joehot> shouldnt have said anything
21:25 < joehot> totally exploitable
21:25 < joehot> do you want a pastebin of the excludes
21:25 <@kanzure> no i want phenny fixed
21:25 < joehot> are you going to do it
21:26 < joehot> i think its pretty funny that they didnt stop to think the other half of the eqn didnt get implemented
21:26 <@kanzure> fucking with urllib at the moment
21:26 <@kanzure> phenny will be next
21:26 < joehot> ill do it
21:31 < joehot> https://github.com/sbp/phenny/pull/4/files
21:31 < joehot> they werent paying attention
21:32 <@kanzure> that doesn't seem to account for per-channel rules
21:32 < joehot> there are none
21:32 < joehot> or are there
21:32 < joehot> afaik that was never an option to begin with
21:32 < joehot> the bot is pretty primitive atm
21:33 <@kanzure> https://github.com/sbp/phenny/blob/master/phenny#L25
21:33 <@kanzure> in particularl ine 52
21:33 <@kanzure> *line 52
21:34 < joehot> maybe it chains into setup()
21:35 < joehot> "maps channel names to white or black lists"
21:35 < joehot> oh
21:35 < joehot> i think theyre separate
21:35 < joehot> i have a feeling that wasnt even implemented either
21:36 < joehot> im surprised they remembered to do the part where it holds together
21:36 < joehot> startup is a reqd module
21:37 < joehot> i guess i assumed it was more fleshed out
21:38 <@fenn> what the hell was .wa supposed to do?
21:40 <@fenn> oh was that wolfram alpha?
21:41 < joehot> .wa -i
21:41 < joehot> oh right the bots gone
21:42 <@kanzure> i wonder who recommended phenny to me
21:50 < joehot> weird, it kind of looks like there is code for it already
21:55 < joehot> hm actually this looks accidental
21:56 < joehot> wait no, that's just inconsistency
22:01 < joehot> found the bug
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22:05 < joehot> wait
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22:06 < joehot> kanzure: pastebin your default.py
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22:11 <@kanzure> joehot: http://pastebin.com/0fw578ga
22:11 <@fenn> i hope the text on supybot.org is autogenerated
22:12 < joehot>    '*': ['!'], # default whitelist, allow all
22:12 < joehot> there was no bug
22:12 < joehot> my problem happened because i put modules/ in extra
22:13 < joehot> well, there was a bug
22:14 < joehot> because if you put modules/ in extra it includes all of them
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22:14 <@kanzure> paperbot: .help
22:14 <@kanzure> paperbot: .admin
22:14 <@kanzure> paperbot: .wa 1+1
22:14 < joehot> so i guess it includes all modules in extra folders
22:14 < joehot> .wa 1+1
22:14 < paperbot> 1+1;2;two;| +->-> = ->, 1->->1->->2;age 6:  3.2 seconds -> age 8:  1.8 seconds -> age 10:  1.2 seconds -> , age 18:  0.83 seconds, (ignoring concentration, repetition, variations in education, etc.)
22:14 < joehot> hm
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22:14 < joehot> enable is empty
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22:15 < joehot> wait
22:15 < joehot> enable is commented out
22:15 < joehot> so i think you can turn the default whitelist back on
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22:16 <@fenn> enable = [] no?
22:16 < joehot> it has to be uncommented
22:16 <@fenn> oh its different on the pastebin
22:17 < joehot> yes
22:17 <@fenn> /home/bryan/code/paperbot/modules/  is wrong
22:18 < joehot> apparently not, papers works
22:18 < joehot> .papers
22:18 <@fenn> should be /home/bryan/code/paperbot/phenny/modules/
22:18 < joehot> oh, right
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22:18 < joehot> .papers
22:18 < joehot> .wa 1+1
22:18 <@kanzure> no i wanted /home/bryan/code/paperbot/modules/ to be a separate thing
22:18 < joehot> now its just broken
22:18 <@kanzure> why would i want to commit all of the other phenny modules?
22:19 <@kanzure> http://arxiv.org/abs/1211.0545
22:19 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Negative%20Absolute%20Temperature%20for%20Motional%20Degrees%20of%20Freedom.pdf
22:19 <@kanzure> looks like it works to me
22:20 <@fenn> .reload
22:20 <@kanzure> paperbot: reload papers
22:20 < paperbot> kanzure: <module 'papers' from '/home/bryan/code/paperbot/phenny/modules/papers.pyc'> (version: 2013-01-07 04:08:54)
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22:21 < joehot> .papers
22:22 < joehot> paperbot: paper
22:22 < joehot> paperbot: papers
22:22 <@kanzure> i find your lack of faith disturbing
22:25 <@fenn> so it doesn't fetch papers if you say anything else before the link?
22:25 <@fenn> http://foo
22:26 <@kanzure> i used str.startswith because i was too lazy to parse strings for urls
22:26 <@kanzure> but that would be a relevant addition
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22:28 <@fenn> http://httpstatus.es/401
22:29 <@fenn> oh it has to find that url in the url
22:29 <@kanzure> huh?
22:29 <@kanzure> fenn: https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot/blob/master/modules/papers.py
22:31 <@kanzure> a nice patch for someone to contribute would be one that parses multiple urls in a message *cough*
22:32 <@kanzure> hmm and title = title.encode(..) should probably be moved up before os.path.join
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--- Log closed Tue Jan 08 00:00:24 2013