--- Log opened Tue Jan 08 00:00:24 2013 00:00 -!- Helleshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:31 -!- SolG [~Sol@c-174-57-58-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:33 -!- _sol_ [~Sol@c-174-57-58-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:44 <@kanzure> "Requested requests==1.0.4, but installing version 0.14.2" 00:45 <@kanzure> what why would i want it to do that 00:51 <@kanzure> well this should support requests==0.14.2 and requests==1.0.4 now 00:51 <@kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/careful-requests 01:25 -!- SolG is now known as _sol_ 01:27 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@node32.18.251.72.1dial.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:27 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@node32.18.251.72.1dial.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:27 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:28 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:51 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@103-9-42-1.flip.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:39 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:04 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:15 -!- He||eshin is now known as Helleshin 05:27 -!- EnLilaSko [~Nattzor@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:37 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@ip-64-134-65-251.public.wayport.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:34 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@gw-ko-kostr2.inka-online.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:34 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@gw-ko-kostr2.inka-online.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:34 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:12 -!- strages_work [~c6740838@dev.throwthemind.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:18 -!- abetusk [~abetusk@cpe-24-58-232-122.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:30 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:57 -!- Burn_with_intent [~Burn@pool-108-45-79-253.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:58 < Burn_with_intent> I expect you've probably seen this, but just incase: http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/01/bacterial-immune-system-used-to-engineer-human-dna-in-human-cells/ 08:01 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:06 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:12 -!- Burn_with_intent is now known as Burninate 09:09 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:32 <@kanzure> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/elsevier-acquires-aureus-sciences-provider-of-databases-and-information-tools-for-pharmaceutical-and-biotech-companies-2013-01-08 09:33 <@kanzure> i wonder how elsevier decided to acquire them 09:33 <@kanzure> was it just because they have "databases"? 09:45 < delinquentme> biebs smokes weed 09:45 < delinquentme> lulz 09:47 < strangewarp> apparently if you get a strain of weed with a cannabinol:THC ratio of <1:20, it increases concentration and suppresses appetite: http://www.centennialseeds.com/2012/08/24/equatorial-sativas-difficult-to-grow-and-low-yielding-so-why-bother/ 09:49 < strangewarp> They're very uncommon to find, though, since they don't have "jar appeal"... which is silly 09:50 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@ip-64-134-65-251.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:02 -!- rainfrog [~swamp@p5B16EA5C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:04 -!- erasmus [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:05 -!- rainfrog [~swamp@p5B16EA5C.dip.t-dialin.net] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 10:11 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:02 < Burninate> strangewarp: My understanding was that low CBD:THC ratio produced extreme anxiety/paranoia 11:04 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-53-143-183.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:06 < strangewarp> Burninate: From what I know, that varies from person to person 11:15 <@kanzure> http://symbolhound.com/ claims to do exact symbol web searching with special characters 11:15 <@kanzure> it's sad that i have to call '"*/\|{}$ "special".. but it is what it is. 11:16 <@kanzure> seems to only search stackoverflow though 11:16 < chris_99> oh darn, otherwise that'd be really useful 11:16 <@kanzure> oh geeze stackoverflow's search isn't exact-symbol either 11:16 <@kanzure> so i guess that is slightly useful 11:19 <@kanzure> now all we need is a pdf search engine that actually respects bytes too 11:19 <@kanzure> how did google scholar convince everyone to let them index content? 11:20 < chris_99> don't get you, don't they just spider all pdfs from webpages 11:20 <@kanzure> no 11:20 <@kanzure> publishers used to allow the google scholar user-agent string 11:20 <@kanzure> and then they switched to ip address verification 11:21 < chris_99> oh intriguing 11:21 <@kanzure> someone should check if there's any publishers left that are only checking the user-agent string 11:23 < chris_99> a distributed/p2p client that could run at unis to grab papers would be sweet, it could also act as a bibliography manager or something 11:23 < brownies> i heard the other day that microsoft's scholar search was >> google's 11:23 <@kanzure> brownies: it uses silverlight, it's a lie 11:24 < brownies> i had no idea they even *had* a scholar search 11:24 < brownies> kanzure: oh. dammit. 11:24 <@kanzure> chris_99: well, if you have a username/password for one, i can add it to paperbot. 11:43 <@kanzure> brownies: this thing, right? http://academic.research.microsoft.com/ 11:45 < brownies> yeah that appears to be it 11:45 < brownies> kanzure: not seeing any SilverLight yet ... ? 11:45 <@kanzure> me either 11:49 <@kanzure> seems sort of slow though? 11:51 <@kanzure> also they use id numbers hehe 11:51 <@kanzure> http://academic.research.microsoft.com/Publication/59618332 11:51 <@kanzure> http://academic.research.microsoft.com/Publication/59618331 11:51 <@kanzure> etc.. 11:53 <@kanzure> it doesn't seem to link to the publisher's site 11:54 <@kanzure> wait what's the point of this o_o 11:57 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-53-143-183.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58 <@kanzure> a few of them have a "View publication" link or two: http://academic.research.microsoft.com/Publication/27048497/a-pvdf-receiver-for-ultrasound-monitoring-of-transcranial-focused-ultrasound-therapy 11:58 <@kanzure> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=05473035 11:58 <@kanzure> damn you paperbot 12:02 < brownies> kanzure: yeah the search was really quick, but clicking on a result was really slow for some reason. 12:04 <@kanzure> ignoring for a moment that this paper is by hameroff, here's a study of transcranial ultrasound applied to the human brain: 12:04 <@kanzure> http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/documents/TUSinpress2.pdf 12:04 <@kanzure> from 2012 12:04 <@kanzure> fenn: so that might somewhat answer your question ("has anybody actually tried it") 12:05 < brownies> who is Hameroff and why does that matter? 12:05 <@fenn> somehow the url makes me immediately dubious i will enjoy reading the paper 12:06 <@fenn> oh they're using it for anesthesia? 12:07 < nmz787> Burninate: strangewarp I've heard pure THC is pretty nasty, but I only heard that from some BBC special where some doc injected it into this reporter 12:07 * Burninate is referencing same 12:07 <@kanzure> brownies: hameroff is the wacko who believes in quantum consciousness and tubules-many-world-theory 12:08 <@kanzure> i think he's a wacko for believing in consciousness in the first place, but the broader scientific community dislikes him for his spurious claims of quantum theory and neuroscience 12:08 < Burninate> considering it's semi-legal now in two states, I hope *some* dedicated amateur does some real research on it 12:08 <@fenn> there has been a lot of research on THC in israel 12:08 <@fenn> and various cannabinoids 12:08 <@kanzure> fenn: they are using it to treat chronic pain in that paper 12:08 * Burninate wonders if gwern would move to Colorado 12:09 <@fenn> i'm not sure how THC came up as a topic in the first place; did i say something? i was reading about endocannabinoids last night 12:10 -!- jrochkind [~jrochki1@128.220.8.101] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:10 <@kanzure> jrochkind: hi 12:10 < jrochkind> howdy 12:10 < chris_99> Penrose believes in quantum conciousness doesn't he, though he's more of a physicist 12:10 < jrochkind> i got a few minutes. 12:11 < Burninate> biebs smokes weed 12:11 < Burninate> lulz 12:11 < Burninate> apparently if you get a strain of weed with a cannabinol:THC ratio of <1:20, it increases concentration and suppresses appetite: http://www.centennialseeds.com/2012/08/24/equatorial-sativas-difficult-to-grow-and-low-yielding-so-why-bother/ 12:11 <@kanzure> jrochkind: i appreciated your insights on the HN thread 12:11 <@kanzure> chris_99: penrose is also nuts 12:11 < jrochkind> kanzure: cool. 12:12 < chris_99> hehe, i read a little of the Emporers new mind, didn't finish it though 12:12 < jrochkind> kanzure: it's also possible i have no idea what i'm talking about. doing too many things at once, as usual. 12:12 < jrochkind> kanzure: you guys are at georgia tech? is that where rsinger used to be back in the day, yeah? 12:12 <@kanzure> i am not affiliated with an institution 12:12 < jrochkind> ah 12:12 <@kanzure> jrochkind: i was wondering what you know about ezproxy. it seems they wrote their own http server in c. 12:12 < jrochkind> thus your interest in pirating PDFs (just kidding!) 12:13 < jrochkind> kanzure: i am not familiar with the internal implementation of ezproxy, but that seems possible. EZProxy was not originally an OCLC product, it's company was purchased by OCLC. 12:13 < jrochkind> kanzure: why would any of us care about the internal implementation of exproxy? 12:13 <@kanzure> right, i think that acquisition happened in 2008 12:13 <@kanzure> because i have been reverse engineering it and finding some buffer overflows 12:13 < jrochkind> okay... why? 12:13 <@kanzure> there's at least 2000 schools that use it 12:13 <@kanzure> because i want access? 12:14 <@kanzure> i don't see how all these schools collectively decided to be using it anyway 12:14 <@kanzure> it's not a great piece of software.. wtf happened? 12:14 < jrochkind> Maybe if I were logged into an account without my real name attached, then, maybe, I could give you advice for hacking other schools EZProxy's to pirate scholarly content. Maybe. But I probably still wouldn't. 12:14 < jrochkind> If that's really what you're asking me? 12:14 <@kanzure> haha no that's not what i'm asking you, jeeze 12:14 <@kanzure> i'm asking you more about the social context that allowed oclc to happen and why things like ezproxy are popular in the first place 12:15 < jrochkind> Two seperate questions, which do you want? :) 12:15 < jrochkind> Or short answer to both. 12:15 <@kanzure> how about short :) 12:15 < jrochkind> So back in the day (we're talking 100 years ago), every library had to catalog (write metadata) for it's own materials. 12:15 < jrochkind> Then, even pre-computer, they started sharing cataloging on punchcards. 12:16 <@kanzure> sure, they wanted to share their data input via oclc 12:16 < jrochkind> They originally had regional cooperatives, like cooperatively member-owned organizations, they created to share cataloging, and also to share "who holds what", for inter-library loan in regional areas. 12:16 <@kanzure> but i hear that ILL costs $0.30/query and other crap.. who would agree to this? 12:17 < jrochkind> These cooperatively owned organizations were called 'bibliographic utiltiies'. They started merging. OCLC is what's left, it ate all of them. (It was originally Ohio). 12:17 < jrochkind> That's the short answer to "the social context that allowed oclc to happen" 12:17 < jrochkind> You want to know why OCLC _still_ exists, taht's a different question. :) 12:18 <@kanzure> i assume licensing requirements or something 12:18 <@fenn> the short short answer is "network effect" 12:18 <@kanzure> how did Useful Utilities get market domination? 12:19 < jrochkind> The short answer to "why things like ezproxy are popular in the first place" -- universities spend millions of dollars each on licensing electronic scholarly content, hosted on third party platforms. These things are licensed for affiliated users. But most of these platforms are technologically craptastic (and most library/university IT infrastructures are too), so the only way they can authetnicate "who is an affiliated user" is by IP address. 12:20 < jrochkind> Yet it's obviously important for libraries to let their users access these resources when they aren't on-campus. But the third party platform can only authenticate by IP address. So you need a VPN and/or proxy of some kind. Thus EZProxy. Which gives you a way to proxy, without the user having to log into a VPN (which sucks), and without the user having to configure their browser to send ALL traffic through a generic http proxy (which also sucks 12:20 <@kanzure> yeah but why ezproxy? were they the only ones selling software that did what they needed? 12:20 < jrochkind> EZProxy was actually really good at doing what it does. 12:21 < jrochkind> Back when it was an independent operation, it was basically a one-man shop, and that one man was really clever, AND if you filed a support ticket, he'd fix the problem or even develop a new feature to meet your need very quickly. 12:21 < jrochkind> EZProxy won by being better than the competition, legit. 12:21 < jrochkind> Certainly there's a bunch of crappy things about EZProxy too. 12:21 < jrochkind> I mean, the whole fucking _design_ is a nightmare, it's a bad way to do things, proxying traffic for the purpose of IP-based auth. But EZProxy did it better than any of the competitors. 12:22 <@kanzure> how much was it acquired for? 12:22 <@kanzure> and do you know how much a license costs? 12:23 < jrochkind> i have no idea how much it was aquired for, probably not public info. 12:23 < jrochkind> a license is relatively cheap, although it's probably gotten more expensive since the acquisition. 12:23 <@kanzure> ah wait it is public, neat 12:23 < brownies> what about OCLC? why does that continue to stick around when it costs such a price-gouging amount of money? 12:23 <@kanzure> $600,000 in 2008. lame. 12:23 < jrochkind> But it used to be REALLY cheap for enterprise software. Like $300 a year or something? Which is really cheap for the library market. 12:23 <@kanzure> $600k for 2000 users? 12:23 < jrochkind> Maybe $800 a year. Still cheap for the market. $800 is nothing when you're paying $20 million a year on the licenses for the content EZProxy is giving you access to. 12:24 < jrochkind> I have no idea what justifies the companies purchase price. 12:24 <@kanzure> yep that's about $300/customer, neat. 12:24 < jrochkind> Maybe it's not $300/year*2000, so much as locking users into the OCLC platform and providing a complete wall-to-wall library IT solution, which is what OCLC wants/needs to do, you know? 12:25 < jrochkind> But shit, you know how many companies Google has purchased for many multiples of their yearly revenue? Maybe OCLC just thought Google knew something it didn't. :) 12:25 <@kanzure> google scholar striked deals with publishers to get full text 12:26 < jrochkind> yeah, a lot of that is secret. My impression is that at first they had to pay publishers, but eventually they had publishers who would have paid google for the privilege of being indexed on scholar! 12:26 <@kanzure> yeah, it used to be by user agent 12:26 < jrochkind> As with everything internet, people are confused about what is valuable for whom how. 12:26 <@kanzure> people were spoofing the google scholar user agent string 12:26 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:27 < jrochkind> interesting. easy enough for them to do it by IP instead, and it's harder (although not impossible) to spoof a google IP. But have they largely given up and realized that if they're letting google scholar index a page, it might as well be public? 12:27 <@kanzure> it's too bad that google doesn't go after oclc. i figure there's not enough profit in the business of making books and knowledge free. 12:28 < brownies> the "free" part probably throws a wrench into that 12:28 <@kanzure> brownies: they can sell ads on android devices to read the books :P 12:28 < jrochkind> I'm not sure the public would benefit from such a thing. And yeah, I think Google would be making a huge mistake in buying OCLC, it's not actually a very profitable business OCLC is in. 12:28 < brownies> i would not mind advertisements next to my scholarly reading 12:29 < brownies> read a paper on nootropics => "click here to purchase on Amazon.com!" 12:29 <@kanzure> [B[A 12:29 <@kanzure> deepdyve is awful, i hate it 12:29 <@kanzure> they do rent per page and i think they might do some advertising 12:29 < jrochkind> OCLC is also a member-owned cooperative, the customer members would have to agree by vote to sell to Google. Or maybe you just mean Google competing with OCLC, not Google buying OCLC. Yeah, I don't think it's nearly profitable enough for Google. 12:29 < brownies> jrochkind: we were looking at OCLC's pricing ... surely they make good money, given how much they price-gouge their customers? 12:29 < nmz787> so i really need a PDF organizer with search 12:30 <@kanzure> nmz787: mendeley 12:30 < brownies> they have the most obscene fees for the most ridiculous things... basically multiple cents per API call 12:30 < jrochkind> So a couple things. 12:30 < nmz787> kanzure: mendeley isn't local 12:30 <@kanzure> nmz787: yes it is 12:30 <@kanzure> the mendeley client is local. 12:30 < jrochkind> One, it's VERY hard to get accurate info on OCLC pricing, it's quite possible what you were looking at is outdated and not OCLC's current pricing model. 12:30 <@kanzure> nmz787: also, zotero has local search 12:31 < jrochkind> Two, OCLC is, again, actually a member-owned cooperative, it's customer-owned. There are no profits going to investors. Believe it or not, all of OCLC's income goes to operating expenses. including salaries for executives, of course. And executives are i'm sure paid well, but not as well as Google's. :) 12:31 <@kanzure> nmz787: zotero can be used outside of firefox (because of xulrunner) if you happen to not like firefox 12:31 < nmz787> hmm 12:31 < nmz787> i can't find this stupid paper and it's not in the directory i thought it should be 12:31 < nmz787> :/ 12:31 <@kanzure> actually yeah, use zotero. it's open source. mendeley is evil. 12:32 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@103-9-42-1.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:32 <@kanzure> mendeley seems to be trying to do a play to eat ISI's lunch. 12:32 <@kanzure> jrochkind: "profits going to investors" isn't exactly how a venture-backed operation works 12:33 < jrochkind> i dunno man, i'm no entrepeneur. All I'm saying is when you say "surely they make good money", i'm not sure what you mean but it's probably not so. The only way anyone's making money from OCLC is from their salaries. 12:34 <@kanzure> well at $0.30 per api call, it adds up to lots of dollars 12:34 <@kanzure> is it paying for bandwidth? no, that can't be it. is it paying for data entry? no, the libraries pay for that.. 12:34 < jrochkind> perhaps their financial statements are public and you can see their revenue and expenses and where it goes, i dunno. 12:34 < nmz787> does OCLC also negotiate the content tho 12:34 < nmz787> is some % of that .30 going to Nature group? 12:34 <@kanzure> no 12:34 < jrochkind> It is to some extent mysterious to me too, honestly. Except I know there's nobody secretly making millions off it, it's not possible. 12:35 <@kanzure> oclc is primarily for books and cataloging 12:35 <@kanzure> institutions make individual subscription deals to academic publishers 12:35 <@kanzure> *deals with 12:35 < jrochkind> I think a large part of the explanation lies in "legacy". When you've been doing something for 80 years, you've got a lot of legacy to support, and it gets expensive in annoying ways. Perhaps someone starting from scratch could do it with less expenses, but then someone starting from scratch would have trouble competing with OCLC naturally. :) 12:36 < jrochkind> Why are you guys so obsessed with OCLC, anyhow? 12:36 <@kanzure> i want my content :3 12:36 < jrochkind> But OCLC isn't the one guarding your content, is it? That's what I'm curious about, why you've focused on OCLC, they don't have much to do with electronic scholarly content, honestly. 12:36 < jrochkind> OCLC _used_ to be an electronic content aggregation vendor themselves, but they've been mostly trying to get out of that business. 12:36 <@kanzure> they have a giant index of all books and holdings of books that i can't access 12:37 <@kanzure> they have a shitty search interface that makes it impossible to copy the database 12:37 <@kanzure> nearly impossible 12:37 <@kanzure> and claiming copyright on it is annoying 12:37 < jrochkind> all that stuff is in flux, but, yeah, they don't really wnat you to copy their db. 12:38 < jrochkind> I'm not sure why you are so fixated on wanting to though, it won't give you access to _the content_, just to an index of books, what so excites you about a database of books? 12:38 < jrochkind> If you're annoyed you can't get scholarly article PDFs, you should focus your ire more on Elsevier et al. 12:38 <@kanzure> knowing which books and papers exist is the first step to getting them all 12:38 < brownies> jrochkind: yes, i think they stick around because of legacy and possibly some network effects from having all libraries on their system 12:38 < jrochkind> they don't really have a very good database of papers, and what they do have they've largely licensed from others, it's not uinque to them. 12:38 < jrochkind> And books, Amazon and Google Books both probably have better databases of books even. 12:39 <@kanzure> i think isi, mendeley, google scholar and microsoft academic research search have fairly good index of all papers 12:39 < jrochkind> And both Amazon and Google Books have better free APIs. Amazon's ToS are weird, Google Books aren't even that. 12:39 <@kanzure> their free APIs are just throwaways though, they don't really want you to have the data. 12:39 <@kanzure> if they cared that much, they would give archive.org the data 12:39 < jrochkind> Yeah, a good idnex of all papers is hard to come by for free. But OCLC doesn't have it either. 12:40 < jrochkind> What OCLC does have, they've licensed from others on terms that prevent them from sharing it with you. 12:40 <@kanzure> yes, i just enumerated the sources of where you would find that, you would note oclc was not in that list -_- 12:40 <@kanzure> what's the point though of all this non-sharing 12:40 <@kanzure> that's not what a library is 12:40 < jrochkind> In fact, OCLC's _papers_ index isn't available via API _even to OCLC member/customers_, becuase of their own licensing. 12:40 < jrochkind> which pisses OCLC off too, heh. 12:40 <@kanzure> fascinating. is there a story? 12:41 < jrochkind> not really. OCLC didn't have an index of papers. They knew they needed one. They assembled one by licensing metadata from people like ISI, and publishers. They licensed it on terms that don't let them redistribute it in bulk or via API, either because they didn't realize they needed to or because those they got it from weren't willing to give it away. 12:41 < jrochkind> the whole scholarly market is a mess. 12:41 < jrochkind> and everyone knows it. 12:42 <@kanzure> what are publishers going to be doing about the open access requirements that the UK setup a year-ish ago? 12:42 < jrochkind> I agree OCLC is making some mistakes, and ought to be a lot more open with their data. They're motivated by trying to stay in business; I think they're still doing things wrong. But I don't think OCLC is at the heart of the disfunction that is pissing you off. 12:43 < jrochkind> and now i'll do a bit of work at work before I go home. Good luck! 12:44 <@kanzure> seeya. thanks for tolerating our questions. 12:44 < jrochkind> (and for better or worse, I predict that libraries as a whole and OCLC in particular will all no longer exist in 10 years. :) ) 12:44 <@kanzure> didn't we predict that 10 years ago? 12:45 < jrochkind> Some people did. I didn't, heh. 12:45 <@kanzure> oops i mean, didn't we say 10 years from now as of 10 years ago? 12:45 <@kanzure> erm.. i mean. it's past due. 12:45 < jrochkind> 10 years ago, I still personally didn't really believe ebooks were going to happen. Ebooks are going to be final nail in the coffin. Becuase publishers largely will not allow libraries to lend ebooks. 12:45 <@kanzure> libraries are far older than publishers, it's hilarious how much more leverage publishers have over libraries 12:46 < jrochkind> with print books, there are certain legal provisions in the US at least that give the libraries power vis a vis the publishers, that they don't have with ebooks. 12:46 < jrochkind> @google first sale doctrine 12:46 < jrochkind> oops, no bot in here. 12:46 <@kanzure> we just have paperbot. also some suspect that i might be a bot. 12:46 < jrochkind> you know about #code4lib, that's the channel where the library software geeks hang out. 12:46 < jrochkind> you can ask them all questions too, and start interesting argumetns there. :) 12:46 <@kanzure> is aaronsw hanging out there anymore? 12:46 < jrochkind> i don't actually know him. 12:46 < nmz787> kanzure: what is umb's exproxy URL? 12:47 <@kanzure> nmz787: http://ezproxy.lib.umb.edu/login 12:47 <@kanzure> jrochkind: he was the kid that got caught at mit 12:47 < jrochkind> but yeah, legally a library (or anyone else) in the US can buy any old copy of a print book anywhere, and have the legal right to lend it out (or even rent it out for $) without copyright owners permission. not so with ebooks. 12:48 < jrochkind> i dont' remember that story, kid that got caught at mit. Oh wait, vaguely. 12:48 < jrochkind> what was he doing? 12:48 < jrochkind> (allegedly) 12:48 <@kanzure> he was allegedly copying jstor things 12:48 < jrochkind> aha. 12:48 <@kanzure> federal governmen is prosecuting at the moment. 12:48 <@kanzure> *government 12:48 < jrochkind> interesting. 12:48 <@kanzure> archive.org has the court documents 12:48 < jrochkind> what's his full name? I'd like to google it more, maybe publisize it a bit on my blog. 12:48 <@kanzure> aaron swartz 12:48 < jrochkind> thanks 12:49 <@kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz#JSTOR 12:49 <@kanzure> "JSTOR put out a statement saying it would not pursue civil litigation against Swartz." 12:49 <@kanzure> government still going after him anyway 12:49 < jrochkind> so you guys are, like, the hackers that care about scholarly information? heh 12:49 < jrochkind> that's fucked up. 12:49 < jrochkind> JSTOR not pursuing litigation but gvmt doing it anyway, is. 12:49 <@kanzure> if science is so important, why the fuck don't i have a backup? 12:50 < nmz787> we are knownledge junkies 12:50 < nmz787> need more info!!! 12:50 * nmz787 beams crazy eyes around the room 12:50 < jrochkind> if there is a _particular_ paper you want and can't get, you can probably ask in #code4lib, and someone will probably email you a PDF. From time to time. if you do it every day, people will prob get tired of it, heh. 12:51 <@kanzure> no i have my own methods of access 12:51 <@kanzure> paperbot: hiii 12:51 < jrochkind> JStor of course doesn't own the copyright for any of that stuff. They just license it themselves. 12:51 <@kanzure> nature.com/nmat/journal/v11/n9/full/nmat3357.html 12:51 <@kanzure> oops 12:51 <@kanzure> http://nature.com/nmat/journal/v11/n9/full/nmat3357.html 12:51 < nmz787> when paperbot fails it just pings #code4lib :P 12:51 < jrochkind> Elsevier etc. are the real public enemies number 1 here. 12:51 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Rapid%20casting%20of%20patterned%20vascular%20networks%20for%20perfusable%20engineered%20three-dimensional%20tissues.pdf 12:51 < jrochkind> Woah. 12:51 < jrochkind> You want to write a paper on how paperbot works? :) 12:51 < jrochkind> I'm awfully curious. 12:52 <@kanzure> sure, i'd be happy to. 12:52 < nmz787> it just downloads the paper and pastes a link i thought 12:52 <@kanzure> it uses zotero 12:52 < jrochkind> oh, it just uses zotero, hmm. 12:52 <@kanzure> so under the hood it's https://github.com/zotero/translators 12:52 < jrochkind> Wait, I still don't get it. 12:52 <@kanzure> but before that it's a layer of proxies 12:52 < jrochkind> How can a zotero translator get access to something you don't have access to? 12:52 <@kanzure> i do have access 12:53 < jrochkind> ah. 12:53 < jrochkind> how THAT is so is the interesting part. :) 12:53 <@kanzure> pdx.edu gives you a user id when you signup to register for classes 12:53 <@kanzure> i just don't take classes 12:53 < jrochkind> interesting. 12:54 < jrochkind> You might not want to admit THAT in a public article, or at least don't mention PDX by name, heh. 12:54 <@kanzure> well it's sort of obvious, check the /whois on paperbot 12:54 < jrochkind> yeah, but if you start publisizing it, they might have to change their practices. 12:54 <@kanzure> yes :( 12:55 < jrochkind> but i'd be interested in reading a piece by you on all this stuff, the ways you manage to get access to this stuff grey area-ly. 12:55 < jrochkind> paperbot, etc. 12:55 <@kanzure> haha but they would just use it to stop me :( 12:55 <@kanzure> i just want to read my papers, you know 12:55 < jrochkind> yeah, you could do it without mentioning PDX by name etc. But yeah, understood, indeed. 12:55 < jrochkind> If you wanted to though, you could send an article proposal to Code4Lib Journal. 12:55 <@kanzure> but really, zotero/translators.git is a pretty accurate answer 12:56 <@kanzure> haha let me guess, $2000/page to publish? 12:56 < jrochkind> nah, free and free. 12:56 < jrochkind> completely open access journal, nobody gets paid nobody pays. 12:56 < jrochkind> i'm on the editorial committee. it's the journal for hackers who work for libraries. :) 12:56 <@kanzure> hmm. 12:57 <@kanzure> these librarian hackers seem to be slacking? :p 12:57 < jrochkind> 'hacker' in maybe the other sense. 12:57 <@kanzure> ah yes the conformist we-cant-do-anything sense.. 12:57 <@kanzure> sorry, i'm just bitter. 12:57 < jrochkind> http://journal.code4lib.org. You might find it interesting, although much of it is not going to be irrelevant to you. 12:57 < nmz787> kanzure: my name best show up in that article 12:57 < nmz787> :D 12:57 <@kanzure> nmz787: you want to be identified as the individual that exposed all this? wouldn't you prefer to be anonymous. 12:58 < nmz787> :D 12:58 < nmz787> I need publications for super college 12:58 < nmz787> :D :D 12:58 < jrochkind> If you're expecting people who work for libraries to break the law and/or their employers licenses and get fired and no longer work for libraries, indeed you will be dissapointed. shrug. 12:58 <@kanzure> jrochkind: also, there's at least one android app in the wild that is serving as a reverse proxy for paper access. college students install the app unknowingly. 12:58 < jrochkind> interesting! 12:58 < nmz787> huh 12:58 < nmz787> like its a trojan sorta? 12:59 < nmz787> i.e. in some other stupid game or something? 12:59 <@kanzure> yes 12:59 < nmz787> is that what Angry Birds really is! 12:59 <@kanzure> i wish 12:59 < nmz787> genius 12:59 <@kanzure> actually, someone made a fake angry birds version that did a root exploit 12:59 <@kanzure> so yes it's possible there might be an angry birds version floating around acting as a reverse proxy for paper access... heh 12:59 < nmz787> nice 13:00 < nmz787> sooo, I have an account with UMB now 13:00 < nmz787> no $ down 13:00 < nmz787> i just requested lib access 13:00 <@kanzure> but you had to email them 13:00 < nmz787> via email from my new umb.edu email :D 13:00 <@kanzure> and you don't have access yet? 13:00 <@kanzure> let me know when you have paper access 13:00 < nmz787> I have computer access to their course registration 13:00 < brownies> university of massachuseetts? 13:00 < nmz787> yes 13:00 < nmz787> bostoin 13:01 < jrochkind> the ironic thing, as I'm sure you guys know, is how many papers (including JStor hosted papers) are available on the public internet, and findable with google scholar, and were put on the net by _professors_, who either didn't realize they were 'pirating' or didn't care. 13:02 <@kanzure> sure 13:02 < jrochkind> And how many of those are the _authors_ of the papers putting them up. Teh authors don't make any money from those papers, they don't care if they're on the internet. 13:02 <@kanzure> a lot of the papers i look for end up in google scholar showing up as hosted by... me 13:02 < jrochkind> heheh 13:02 <@kanzure> because i forgot that i archived them 13:02 < nmz787> can't an author release their own pubs to direct other individuals legally? 13:02 <@kanzure> no in most cases that is not legal 13:02 < jrochkind> nmz787: not usually. it depends on the nature of their agreement with their publisher. 13:02 <@kanzure> they usually sign over the copyrights 13:03 <@kanzure> when you publish a paper, there's a huge amount of cocksucking 13:03 < nmz787> oh i thought they had the right to give it person to person 13:03 < jrochkind> But "release their own pubs to direct other individuals " is different than 'put on the internet' anyway. The former, legal or not, nobody's going to notice. 13:03 < nmz787> but not post a URL 13:03 < nmz787> hmm 13:03 < nmz787> sure 13:03 <@kanzure> jrochkind: iirc someone had a pdf phone home function once. it was evil. 13:03 -!- erasmus [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has quit [Quit: Ciao a tutti!] 13:03 < jrochkind> Whether you are the author or not, in the US anyway, you may be able to make a copy of a paper for a specific individual at a time, for academic/research purposes, under fair use. 13:03 < jrochkind> kanzure: i didn't even know pdf could do that. 13:04 < jrochkind> you MAY be able to, it's all pretty unclear legally. 13:04 < nmz787> pdf phone home? 13:04 <@kanzure> i think it was possibly through a pdf malware thing 13:05 < nmz787> soo the viewer recognized desired titles if that PDF was open it got sent to a remote server? 13:05 <@kanzure> no, it was a vulnerability in acrobat reader or something 13:06 <@kanzure> CVE-2010-0188 13:06 <@kanzure> http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/38195/discuss 13:06 <@kanzure> "Adobe Acrobat and Reader are prone to a remote code-execution vulnerability An attacker can exploit this issue to execute arbitrary code within the context of the affected application. Failed exploit attempts will result in a denial-of-service condition." 13:06 <@kanzure> http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/38195.py 13:07 <@kanzure> CVE-2010-0188. 13:07 <@kanzure> "Adobe PDF LibTiff Integer Overflow Code Execution" ah it was font related.. neat 13:07 <@kanzure> oops, didn't mean to send the CVE a second time 13:07 <@kanzure> i blame irssi 13:12 <@kanzure> i assume the intention was to see how many times a pdf/paper was opened, and ping a remote url to register the view. 13:18 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:18 <@kanzure> fenn: well that study was mostly useless. pain is an interesting to look at, but "global affect".. meh. 13:21 <@kanzure> also the targeting in that study was really poor. "uh we held it up to their head and blasted them with ultrasound".. yeah great targeting guys. 13:24 <@kanzure> also, it looks like tyler received funding from khosla ventures to do transcranial ultrasound via neurotrek, inc 13:27 -!- jrochkind [~jrochki1@128.220.8.101] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 13:43 -!- wrldpc [~wrldpc@203.105.94.33] has quit [Quit: wrldpc] 13:46 < strangewarp> Hmm. 13:47 < strangewarp> I told someone I supported radical abundance, and they told me I should get away from Zeitgeist for a while. 13:47 < strangewarp> I am getting kind of pissed off at Zeitgeist. 13:48 < strangewarp> I was never a Zeitgeist person, but they seem to have co-opted some of the terms I talk about, and twisted them around this new-agey populism... 13:51 < chris_99> http://www.qualcommtricorderxprize.org/competition-details/overview 14:04 < nmz787> kanzure: umb lib access is mine 14:04 < nmz787> no $ down 14:04 -!- archbox [~archbox@unaffiliated/archbox] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:04 < nmz787> i registered using my normal home address 14:06 < nmz787> grr what's that journal yashgaroth was asking about 14:06 < nmz787> human gene therapy? 14:06 < nmz787> i can't tell if this is the right journal, as this PDF works with no login http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/hum.2011.153 14:06 -!- anarchivist [~anarchivi@pdpc/supporter/active/anarchivist] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:07 < nmz787> weird 14:07 -!- anarchivist [~anarchivi@pdpc/supporter/active/anarchivist] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 14:07 < nmz787> kanzure: can you access the first article but not the rest http://online.liebertpub.com/toc/hum/23/12 14:08 < nmz787> oo 14:08 < nmz787> there is a green dot that means its free 14:09 < nmz787> well trying them with ezprxy gives a 404 14:11 < nmz787> umb has access to nature protocols, which pdx doesnt 14:11 < nmz787> nice, even my RIT ezproxy doesnt have nature protocols! 14:30 -!- EnLilaSko [~Nattzor@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -] 14:33 <@kanzure> haha who has nature protocols then 14:33 < nmz787> UMB 14:33 <@kanzure> oh oh i see 14:33 <@kanzure> that's great 14:33 <@kanzure> get them all 14:34 < nmz787> :D I am too innefficient to do that 15:02 < juri_> win 24 15:02 < juri_> er. ;) 15:03 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:08 -!- abetusk [~abetusk@cpe-24-58-232-122.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:31 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49 -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:54 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@pool-71-182-199-191.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:01 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@103-9-42-1.flip.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:09 -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:12 -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:19 -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:30 -!- fd_ [a9e87a7b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.169.232.122.123] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:31 -!- fd_ [a9e87a7b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.169.232.122.123] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 16:37 <@kanzure> "OCLC sells NetLibrary to EBSCO Publishing for $7,867,200." 16:38 <@kanzure> "OCLC acquires EZproxy from Useful Utilities for $600,000." 16:39 <@kanzure> http://www.librarytechnology.org/oclc.pl 16:42 < brownies> only 600K? wild. 16:43 <@kanzure> it was "one guy" and i guess he let himself get bought out early 16:46 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@103-9-42-1.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:52 < jrayhawk> https://mobile.twitter.com/zagar well, he technically exists on twitter 16:52 <@kanzure> hm? 16:53 < jrayhawk> the one guy 16:54 <@kanzure> "At first, EZproxy would change the authority information by assigning a unique port number for each host:port combination and rewriting the URL based on this port" 16:54 <@kanzure> "such as changing http://www.somedb.com/ to http://ezproxy.yourlib.org:2050/. Through this remapping, each remote web server was represented by a different port." 16:59 <@kanzure> i think there's a buffer overflow exploit in ezproxy but it's not completely working yet 16:59 -!- aristarchus [~aristarch@unaffiliated/aristarchus] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:07 -!- archbox [~archbox@unaffiliated/archbox] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:19 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:22 < yashgaroth> nmz787: the journal was current gene therapy 17:30 < jrayhawk> 'we didn't read half of the papers we cite because they are behind a paywall #overlyhonestmethods' 17:30 < jrayhawk> 'Before measurement, samples were kept free from contamination & if we dropped any we totally followed the 5 second rule #overlyhonestmethods' 17:31 < jrayhawk> 'the eppendorf tubes were "shaken like a polaroid picture" until that part of the song ended #overlyhonestmethods' 17:35 <@kanzure> sigh 17:36 <@kanzure> could someone make those updates to paperbot for me? the http link detection issue is a really easy contribution to make and i'm really busy doing other things. 18:04 -!- aristarchus [~aristarch@unaffiliated/aristarchus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:25 < Undine> i wonder if there's somekind of buy out of equipment in DIYbio/stem cell research area 18:25 < Undine> like 300k worth of it 18:25 < Undine> but really, it's like 3 million worth 18:25 < Undine> company foreclosure. 18:26 <@kanzure> huh? 18:27 <@kanzure> wait a sec i know you 18:28 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+q *!*@64.235.97.82] by kanzure 19:03 -!- AdrianG [~dextro@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:03 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@pool-71-182-199-191.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:11 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@node239.19.251.72.1dial.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:11 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@node239.19.251.72.1dial.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:11 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:24 -!- Guest56366 [~quassel@64.31.59.70] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 19:24 -!- Charlie [~quassel@64.31.59.70] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:24 -!- Charlie is now known as Guest54301 19:32 -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:32 -!- barriers [~barriers@unaffiliated/barriers] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:40 -!- strages_work [~c6740838@dev.throwthemind.com] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Session timeout)] 19:43 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-q Undine!*@*] by kanzure 19:43 <@kanzure> mode -q *!*@64.235.97.82 19:43 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-q *!*@64.235.97.82] by kanzure 19:48 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:58 <@kanzure> "He has since been surpassed by Steve Woodmore, who achieved a rate of 637 wpm" 19:58 <@kanzure> "According to Woodmore, he first discovered his talent at 7, when tasked with reciting long texts as punishment for being too talkative in school." 19:59 -!- erasmus [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:06 < jrayhawk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAbngwUgSW0 20:16 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@pool-71-182-199-191.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:20 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: what si it? 20:20 <@kanzure> is. 20:33 -!- erasmus [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has quit [Quit: Ciao a tutti!] 20:46 < nmz787> kanzure: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/08/overly-honest-methods-twitter_n_2435364.html 20:47 <@kanzure> yes jrayhawk posted some 20:54 < nmz787> yes 20:55 < nmz787> and you asked him "what is it" 20:55 <@kanzure> ah okay 20:55 <@kanzure> no i think i said 'sigh' 20:55 -!- barriers [~barriers@unaffiliated/barriers] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:00 -!- barriers [~barriers@unaffiliated/barriers] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:02 -!- augur_ is now known as augur 21:07 < nmz787> ahh he also posted a youtube link 21:07 < yashgaroth> nmz787: any luck with current gene therapy via UMB? 21:09 -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@121-73-87-49.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:09 -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@121-73-87-49.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:09 -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:09 -!- Undine [~Undine@64.235.97.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:10 -!- Undine [~Undine@64.235.97.82] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:12 < yashgaroth> and human gene therapy as well actually, since pdx doesn't seem to let me access it 21:54 -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58 < delinquentme> does anyone happen to have a usenet membership in here? 21:58 < delinquentme> Models: Attract Women Through Honesty mark manson 21:58 < delinquentme> ^ looking for this 22:01 -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@121-73-87-49.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:01 -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@121-73-87-49.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:01 -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:11 -!- barriers [~barriers@unaffiliated/barriers] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:59 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:59 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@pool-71-182-199-191.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:04 -!- joshcryer [~g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:05 -!- barriers [~barriers@unaffiliated/barriers] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:08 -!- barriers [~barriers@unaffiliated/barriers] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:28 -!- Vicarious [diepfriet@CAcert/Vicarious] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:36 -!- Vicarious [diepfriet@CAcert/Vicarious] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:44 -!- wrldpc [~wrldpc@203.105.94.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:48 <@kanzure> so i'm confused 23:48 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: can you just link him to the things, so that he can check? 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