--- Log opened Tue Jan 15 00:00:31 2013
00:04 <@kanzure> euclidean: hi
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00:11 <@kanzure> Juul: sup?
00:24 < archels> http://www.cybconf2013.org/ - IEEE International Conference on Cybernetics, Lausanne Switzerland, 13-15 June 2013
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00:44 < Juul> kanzure, not much, doing things at sudo room
00:54 <@kanzure> got libgen seeded yet?
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01:01 < eleitl> mawnin', gentlemen.
01:03 < eleitl> jesus fucking christ, this is sure one hell of an active channel
01:04 < eleitl> I doubt I can keep up with the scroll of yesterday
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01:11 <@kanzure> eleitl: but just think of all the amazing stuff you're missing out on
01:11  * kanzure futzes around with a buffer overflow vulnerability
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01:21 < superkuh> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FB%3ASOLA.0000043576.21942.aa
01:21 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ae6bfbe75dd5df08ba4954111c7febce
01:22 < superkuh> paperbot: http://www.springerlink.com/content/n5r500105215w53x/
01:22 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ebf6ef4958f78da45dee563719c15a6f
01:23 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.springerlink.com/content/pdf/10.1023%2FB%3ASOLA.0000043576.21942.aa
01:23 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/2d334c99ceb73cc0fd0bdf5317122594
01:24 <@kanzure> hmm?
01:24 <@kanzure> well i'm confused
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01:52 <@kanzure> "Hey all, I'm coordinating a series of memorial hackathons for Aaron Swartz. Currently there's going to be one at Noisebridge in SF on Jan. 26 (ish) and another somewhere in Boston, but the more the better."
01:52 <@kanzure> "The idea is to bring together people at hackerspaces around the world to work on projects that in some way continue the work that Aaron did to facilitate the sharing of human knowledge, social/political justice, and free culture."
01:52 <@kanzure> https://groups.google.com/group/science-liberation-front/t/3d17904bef7759b0
02:04 <@kanzure> Juul: ^
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02:38 < archels> Does anyone have a PDF copy around of "Fundamentals of Interface and Colloid Science" volume 1?
02:38 < archels> I'm reading vol. 2, but it has a lot of back-references to the first.
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03:02 < eleitl> Of course I'm missing out. I have work to do.
03:02 < eleitl> Sometimes.
03:04 < eleitl> libgen down again?
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04:04 < eleitl> archels, volume 1 is unfortunately not on libgen
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04:09 < archels> oh, much obliged for checking. *bookmarks*
04:18 < archels> on the subject of uploading, I just attended a very interesting talk by Seth Grant on protein complexes in the postsynapse.
04:19 < eleitl> pray say more
04:19 < archels> He traced these back across evolutionary time to their much simpler ancestors, and his thesis was that their current complexity is what enables a large behaviour repertoire.
04:20 < archels> But I don't know whether these are just stereotyped computational machinery, or whether they encode some sort of state that would need to be captured for uploading.
04:20 < eleitl> Interesting. How large are the assemblies, and what kinds of proteins are they? Transmembrane, cytosol?
04:20 < eleitl> The problem is that nobody knows how much details we need.
04:20 < archels> Clustered around the PSD, e.g. hanging off the long intracellular tails of NMDA receptors.
04:21 < archels> http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v11/n7/full/nn.2135.html
04:21 < paperbot> HTTP 401 unauthorized http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v11/n7/pdf/nn.2135.pdf
04:21 < eleitl> e.g. Ken Hayworth thinks some 8 nm voxel resolution is enough, which I find highly dubious.
04:22 < archels> voxel size just for morphology? Or is his idea to also capture protein distribution and so with that kind of size?
04:22 < eleitl> my Nature neuroscience subscription has expired, too bad.
04:22 < archels> one sec
04:22 < eleitl> He seems to think that structure is correlated with function, which I do not buy.
04:23 < eleitl> This assumes we fully know all function today, which is provably wrong.
04:23 < archels> what, not even correlation (let alone causation)? :)
04:23 < archels> eleitl: http://turingbirds.com/temp/nn.2135.pdf
04:24 < eleitl> thanks, archels
04:24 < eleitl> I mean, sure, you can infer function from shape, in some cases, but that's not proof that you can do that in every case
04:24 < eleitl> The gold standard for success would be to fully reproduce function characterized prior, which hasn't been done yet
04:25 < eleitl> I would actually like to try that with L. stagnalis, if I have time.
04:25 < eleitl> It's a common pond snail, easily cultured and prepared.
04:25 < eleitl> A lot of in vivo and computational work has been done with it.
04:26 < eleitl> The article is good, thanks.
04:28 < archels> no prob. Some of the guys here are working with aplysia.
04:28 < eleitl> Aplysia is a less good target for first uploads.
04:28 < eleitl> It's less easily cultured, too distributed, and simply too large.
04:29 < eleitl> If you look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lymnaea_stagnalis_central_ring_ganglia.jpg
04:29 < eleitl> it's quite large and easily recordable
04:30 < archels> Sadly, in many cases we don't know what to make of precise subcellular synaptic targeting. But one could even argue the case for functional significance based on evolutionary frugality.
04:30 < archels> and if I put the inhibitory synapses on the wrong pyramidal cell compartment in my model, gamma synchrony is shot. That's good enough for me. :)
04:30 < eleitl> See, you know way about the problem than me.
04:30 < eleitl> way more
04:31 < eleitl> So we have to be conservative.
04:31 < eleitl> That's also the problem with the Brain Preservation Foundation, it just looks at some structure preservation.
04:32 < eleitl> No idea whether you screw up the rest. No other way to test but to use a reversible preservation method.
04:32 < eleitl> Unfortunately, without heavy metal contrast you see very little.
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04:34 < eleitl> http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/10/451/figure/F1 <-- see the 1 mm scale bar?
04:34 < eleitl> that thing is huge
04:35 < archels> How many neurons in there, order of magnitude?
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04:35 < eleitl> 20 k
04:36 < eleitl> http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/10/451
04:36 < paperbot> HTTP 404 http://www.biomedcentral.com/bmcgenomics/content/pdf/1471-2164-10-451.pdf
04:36 < archels> Mhm, the problem with uploading simple critters like this is, how do you define success?
04:37 < eleitl> You characterize the dynamics with multigrid/optical methods, and extract operation fingerprints
04:37 < eleitl> Then see, whether the same fingerprints emerge in simulation from first principles
04:37 < archels> yes but the dynamics will always diverge from any model or other system you compare it with
04:37 < eleitl> Then, you make them learn, and see, whether you can regenerate that behaviour from just structure
04:38 < eleitl> You characterize a live critter, then vitrify in situ, and scan.
04:38 < eleitl> You compare the model with the live thing you did earlier.
04:38 < eleitl> So it's the same system.
04:38 < archels> learning is easy, you can do spike-timing dependent plasticity with a handful of variables.
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04:39 < eleitl> Peter Passaro has done some very interesting work with multigrid, and making a computational model from it
04:39 < archels> The problem I see is that, based on these simple measures, you will declare success. But the methods used will then not scale to more complex organisms because of the things left out that were not apparently relevant to the behaviour of a snail, but that are to the behaviour of, say, a mouse.
04:40 < eleitl> Of course you don't stop with the snail, it's just the first target.
04:40 < eleitl> But you'll need to start somewhere simple, because the toolchain needs to be built.
04:41 < eleitl> Just to start, even at 8 nm voxels, a cm^3 is a lot of storage.
04:41 < eleitl> One of the challenges is to develop fully automated segmenting and tracing.
04:41 < eleitl> It's a huge honking wad of data, with artifacts to boot.
04:42 < archels> meh, I'm more worried about the unknown problems than the known problems. ;)
04:43 < archels> I'm not dismissing automated segmentation and recovery as 'just some machine learning stuff', but at least we know it to be tractable.
04:43 < archels> err, s/recovery/reconstruction
04:43 < eleitl> I'm more interested in getting my hands dirty.
04:43 < eleitl> I have a chance with the pond snail, but not with higher animals.
04:43 < eleitl> I would like to "merely" validate vitrification there first.
04:44 < eleitl> On a budget of almost nothing -- we run our lab on ~1 kEUR/month.
04:44 < eleitl> That's just the rental, no eqipment nor consumables.
04:44 < archels> saw the photos--cool stuff!
04:44 < eleitl> Thanks :)
04:45 < eleitl> http://www.researchgate.net/publication/40035062_Sensory_driven_multi-neuronal_activity_and_associative_learning_monitored_in_an_intact_CNS_on_a_multielectrode_array/file/9fcfd4ffd8ee33627b.pdf
04:45 < eleitl> that's one paper by Passaro on the system
04:49 < eleitl> Meh, the equipment alone looks out of reach.
04:49 < eleitl> Not without a real budget.
04:49 < archels> nice, looks like a very well accessible model system.
04:50 < archels> do you mean the MEA setup?
04:50 < eleitl> Yes. I'll probably rather try the voltage dyes.
04:51 < eleitl> We'll need a microscope for SENS stuff anyway.
04:51 < archels> the average MEA chip only costs a few hundred euro. Do you think optical imaging will be cheaper?
04:52 < archels> (of course you can only use the MEA a few dozen times before you have to bin it)
04:52 < eleitl> You'll also need the 256-channels signal acquision.
04:52 < eleitl> All I need is enough resolution to pick up an activity pattern.
04:52 < archels> low-frequency... get some kid fresh out of college and put him in a room with a FPGA board. :)
04:53 < eleitl> Think this can be done with a cheap CMOS sensor?
04:53 < archels> from what I heard, the optics is the real pricey bit.
04:53 < eleitl> Hm, thanks.
04:53 < archels> someone mentioned a $15k Carl-Zeiss lens (!)
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04:54 < eleitl> Ok, that's also out of budget, at least for now.
04:55 < eleitl> Right now we only have money for 6 months, and must know whether we'll get more by end March.
04:56 < archels> I don't know how well equipped you are in terms of chemistry (equipment or know-how), but here's a technique that might interest you http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1929021/
04:58 < eleitl> Technique looks doable, but Resolution Is Too Damn High!
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04:59 < eleitl> Do you know anything about looking at acting neurons in NIR?
05:00 < archels> do you mean intrinsic (BOLD) imaging?
05:01 < eleitl> Not sure BOLD will do a thing with a snail.
05:01 < eleitl> I thought NIR could give a way by working around need for dyes, but probably not.
05:01 < archels> I'm not sure that firing an AP does much to the spectral profile of a neuron.
05:02 < archels> Haven't ever read about it, at least. But if you find something let me know.
05:03 < eleitl> Can't find anything about it yet.
05:04 < eleitl> Nope. Looks like a dud idea.
05:04 < archels> http://biophotonics.illinois.edu/pubs/biophotonics_current/detecting%20action%20potential%20correlated%20scattering%20changes%20with%20OCT.pdf
05:04 < archels> not really straightforward NIR imaging, though...
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05:05 < archels> and quite crummy temporal resolution, too. :(
05:06 < eleitl> Whoa, experimental methodology way out of our league.
05:06 < archels> second-harmonic generation imaging is able to resolve the dynamics of a single AP http://www.jneurosci.org/content/24/4/999.full.pdf
05:06 < archels> right, sorry :P
05:12  * archels lunchtime
05:12 < eleitl> bon appetit
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08:44 <@kanzure> embedding metadata in pdfs https://groups.google.com/group/science-liberation-front/t/b73592f3606b9420
08:50 <@kanzure> eleitl: did you see that arxiv is charging "membership fees" starting jan 2013?
08:51 < balrog> they appear to be voluntary...?
08:51 < balrog> What are the benefits of becoming a member?
08:51 < balrog> Exclusive benefits for participating organizations include:
08:51 < balrog> Participation in arXiv's ongoing governance through the Member Advisory Board, which provides input for project prioritization, new service offerings, financial planning, use of discretionary funds, future technical developments, and policy decisions;
08:51 < balrog> Access to enhanced institutional use statistics;
08:51 < balrog> Public acknowledgement of members' role in financial support.
08:51 < balrog> Several other benefits are under consideration, including automatic posting of arXiv submissions to the institutional repository at an author's host institution and creating a members' portal to provide timely information for the participating institutions. Such potential benefits need to be explored further to understand delivery and maintenance requirements.
08:52 <@kanzure> yes they are voluntary
08:52 <@kanzure> but i assume that institutions would be shamed into joining if they are a top user
08:53 <@kanzure> imagine CERN not joining.. hah.
08:53 <@kanzure> i think their model makes sense. but it's still weird to call it membership fees.
08:53 <@kanzure> also, google groups has a somewhat usable mobile interface? https://groups.google.com/forum/m/?fromgroups#!topic/science-liberation-front/PReQS-93WbA
08:53 < balrog> yes they do
08:53 <@kanzure> it seems to work better than their desktop ui
08:59 <@kanzure> aaronsw legacy hackathons https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ai2JAMm86EJbdFg1TW5tenNJSUt3X2dVVmQ3M08xSlE#gid=0
09:10 <@kanzure> yet another thingiverse alternative https://github.com/MarcusWolschon/homeprototype/wiki
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09:45 <@kanzure> how to write a zotero translator https://groups.google.com/group/science-liberation-front/browse_thread/thread/5876a2c03e3e8be1
09:45 <@kanzure> this thing looks useful: https://github.com/zotero/scaffold
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09:53 < balrog> wow, zotero has gone a long way since the last time I used it.
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10:12 <@kanzure> On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Piotr Migdal <pmigdal@gmail.com> wrote:
10:12 <@kanzure> > (Silly remark: anyway, for the "guerrilla"  Zotero, a good name is
10:12 <@kanzure> > "Zorrotero" ;))
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10:25 <@kanzure> retoshare/jstor dump https://groups.google.com/group/science-liberation-front/t/9f6c865cfdb43382?hl=en_US
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10:57 <@kanzure> "@Bryan, I have a domain name "downloadhardware.com" which I registered since hearing one of your YouTube presentations. Could be a great name for this idea."
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11:42 <@kanzure> brownies: so this guy emailed me today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joi_Ito
11:42 <@kanzure> brownies: you will note that he's on the board of the macarthur foundation
11:43 <@kanzure> perhaps things can be arranged
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11:47 < balrog> he emailed about what exactly?
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11:49 <@kanzure> balrog: trying to get the hackathons more widely known
11:50 < balrog> ahh. :)
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15:03 < balrog> kanzure: is there a way to force zotero to autosave things?
15:04 <@kanzure> balrog: indeed!
15:04 <@kanzure> balrog: https://groups.google.com/group/science-liberation-front/browse_thread/thread/2b3b468fca63a6b2
15:05 <@kanzure> we call it.. zorrotero
15:05 < balrog> firefox-only :\
15:05 <@kanzure> zotero is not firefox only
15:05 < balrog> no, but that plugin seems to be
15:05 < Mariu> zorrotero xD
15:05 <@kanzure> if you find me a link to the chrome source repo, i'll take a look at making it compatible
15:06 < balrog> I use safari here... I could easily port a chrome version to safari
15:35 <@kanzure> ellen jorgensen's ted talk is up on youtube now, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWEpeW7Ojzs
15:35 <@kanzure> her biohacking ted talk, i mean.
15:36 < Mariu> cool
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15:57 <@kanzure> welcome back?
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16:35 <@kanzure> removing watermarks from pdfs https://groups.google.com/group/science-liberation-front/t/c68964cf55d8f6fa
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16:40 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: check out the news https://groups.google.com/group/science-liberation-front
16:41 < yashgaroth> hang on zotero looks interesting
16:41 <@kanzure> yeah you should be aware of that in general
16:41 <@kanzure> http://zotero.org/
16:42 < yashgaroth> oh it's another version of mendeley/endnote
16:42 <@kanzure> haha it's been around longer than mendeley
16:42 <@kanzure> and it's open source
16:42 < yashgaroth>  /qiqqa
16:44 < yashgaroth> well if only one of them's open source I guess that makes choosing easier
16:44 <@kanzure> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/zotero/?src=search
16:44 <@kanzure> i'm sorta surprised it only has 84,000 users. geeze.
16:46 < yashgaroth> 73k on chrome too, though there's surely overlap
16:48 < nsh> have heard good things about zotero
16:48 <@kanzure> nsh: it needs more active contributors maintaining the scrapers
16:48 <@kanzure> https://github.com/zotero/translators
16:49 < nsh> mm
16:49 < nsh> i find once you start "contributing" to things, it's becomes expected of you
16:50 <@kanzure> then submit patches anonymously?
16:50 < nsh> what was just my roundabout way of saying i'm too lazy
16:51 <@kanzure> oh they had a nodejs version of their translation server?
16:51 <@kanzure> https://github.com/zotero/zotero-node
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17:32 <@kanzure> is there a tor implementation written in javascript, possibly for websockets?
17:33 <@kanzure> oh hm, there was a websockets vulnerability that broke tor anonymity a while back.
17:56 <@kanzure> what's a good debian package that provides a proxy server?
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18:37 < superkuh> https://crypto.stanford.edu/flashproxy/ ?
18:37 <@kanzure> "aaron's law"
18:37 <@kanzure> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5064448
18:37 <@kanzure> http://www.lofgren.house.gov/images/stories/pdf/draft%20lofgren%20bill%20to%20exclude%20terms%20of%20service%20violations%20from%20cfaa%20%20wre%20fraud%20011513.pdf
18:37 <@kanzure> superkuh: actually, i put some thought into it and i think that http://celeryproject.org/ is exactly what we need
18:42 <@kanzure> with apologies for linking to reddit, http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/16njr9/im_rep_zoe_lofgren_im_introducing_aarons_law_to/
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19:37 <@kanzure> nmz787: i've referred your question to the zotero team, i don't wanna bullshit you really
19:37 <@kanzure> nmz787: simonster is in #zotero-dev
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19:46 < nmz787> cool
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19:55 < rigel> anything that uses django i am all for
19:55 <@kanzure> celery does not require django
19:56 <@kanzure> in fact, i've used celery in production many times without django
19:56 < rigel> if you were suggesting the use of a website to crowdsource the raping of infants, but it ran django, well
19:56 <@kanzure> if you were into political activism, i'm sure that would sound like an acceptable site to make, or something
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19:57 < rigel> why the hell are nerds so down on "activism"
19:57 < rigel> other than the fact that most "activists" are dipwads
19:57 < joehot> because its associated with peta
19:58 < rigel> peta has done good things
19:58 < rigel> most of the time they are a bunch of jerkoffs
19:58 < rigel> but they have helped to make animal research more humane
19:58 < rigel> they just go way too far
19:59 < rigel> and they only target the low hanging fruit, most of the time
19:59 < rigel> like foie gras
19:59 < rigel> instead of industrial animal husbandry like CAFOs that drive antibiotic resistance
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20:13 <@kanzure> http://www.generalist.org.uk/blog/2011/jstor-where-does-your-money-go/
20:13 <@kanzure> "The figure of $145k for individual articles is definitely interesting – only 0.35% of JSTOR’s revenue came from pay-per-view cases? This is vastly lower than I expected; quite possibly the prices are so high (and JSTOR access so common, academically) that very few people are willing to pay and unable to circumvent it via a friend."
20:13 <@kanzure> "The estimate quoted is $19/article as an average – so perhaps only seven and a half thousand articles over the year?"
20:15 < balrog> kanzure: few people pay.
20:15 < balrog> I am fairly certain that most people who really want an article and don't have database access just ask a friend who does
20:15 < balrog> heck, I do that for articles my library doesn't have
20:15 < balrog> what annoys me greatly though are papers that are parts of the proceedings of various conferences
20:16 < balrog> and such
20:16 < balrog> stuff where only a few copies were ever produced, and that were bound in books and maybe 5 or 6 libraries have
20:16 <@kanzure> i've heard of some of my friends paying (just, not for JSTOR things)
20:16 < balrog> and only was ever on paper
20:16 <@kanzure> i've been shocked when friends reveal this
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20:18 < balrog> I'd like to see someone perfect a cheap version of the google book scanner
20:18 < balrog> if it cost ~$500 to make one that worked reliably, I'd certainly do so
20:19 <@kanzure> erm, there's a few that have been linked in here before
20:20 <@kanzure> like http://diybookscanner.org/
20:20 <@kanzure> no comments on cost or reliability
20:20 <@kanzure> because i remember neither
20:21 < balrog> no, the google one
20:21 < balrog> the linear one
20:22 < balrog> http://hackaday.com/2012/11/16/google-books-team-open-sources-their-book-scanner/
20:22 < balrog> watch that video and you'll see why
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20:32 < juri_> eleitl: re: activity: i'm just reading your words now, 19 hours later. i read all of the backlog, but i get LAGGED.
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20:44 < juri_> hey kanzure: i'd like to do something productive for this group.. and my ideas seem to be a bit out there to apply.
20:45 < juri_> I'd like you to look over my linked in profile, and my gitorious page, and point me at something you think would be the most useful for me to work on.
20:46 < juri_> my favorite right now is a 3d microscope using gabor filtering, and a trinary vision system, but... i'm open to ideas.
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20:53 <@kanzure> juri_: could you drop a link to those things? i also don't remember gitorious.org's url schema.
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20:57 < juri_> kanzure: http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=7467035 https://gitorious.org/~juri
21:05 < juri_> Its also probably worth looking at my project website (linuxpmi.org), and more specifically the 'unsorted information' page.
21:06 <@kanzure> computing..
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22:06  * juri_ checks to see if she's locked up kanzure. ;)
22:12 <@kanzure> i need to be rebooted
22:21 < juri_> maybe the anti-uploaders were right... and the conspiracy is that kanzure doesn't want to tell anyone how he did it. ;)
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22:22 <@kanzure> or i don't want to bullshit you needlessly
22:22 <@kanzure> are you just sitting around waiting for me to answer tonight? 'cause i'm sorta doing multiple things and this isn't coming in the next five minutes.
22:25 < juri_> gods no, i'm writing EMR software.
22:28 < juri_> this stuff is made of pain and fail. i could write on it for a year, and not have it 'right'.
22:28 < rigel> oh for fucks sake
22:29 < rigel> who are you writing for
22:29 < juri_> everyone? its OpenEMR.
22:29 < rigel> oh
22:29 < rigel> that means you are writing in...php?
22:29 < rigel> some godforsaken piece of shit, anyway
22:30 < juri_> yepyep.
22:30 < rigel> are you another one of the people in pdx?
22:30 < juri_> no, but the people i'm working on it for are in pdx.
22:31 < juri_> i went to the other coast. in DC.
22:31 < rigel> oh, so tony then?
22:31 < juri_> yep. ;)
22:33 < juri_> how do you know tony?
22:34 < rigel> i find it at least a little bit heartening that even though i have only been in medical school for a year and a half, and have been screaming about the lack of interoperability of EMR/EHR software for about as long, even though noone has taken me seriously that RAND paper came out and said many of the same things
22:34 < rigel> as well as the IOM paper late in 2011, which i cited to anyone who would listen
22:35 < rigel> i know tony through asheesh laroia, who i met at noisebridge in sf some years ago
22:35 < juri_> you're preaching the the choir.
22:35 < rigel> i started a medical informatics interest group at my school
22:35 < rigel> and when i invited tony to speak, i was the only one who showed up
22:35 < juri_> I'm the origional author of the XML form generator for OpenEMR: the only 'standardized' way to exchange forms from practice to practice, without swapping around PHP files.
22:35 <@kanzure> you guys should upload proprietary medical emr software to the interwebs so people can reverse engineer it
22:36 < rigel> heh
22:36 <@kanzure> so far there's no collection of evil medical file formats that require additional reverse engineering effort
22:36 < rigel> im sure you know that the HL7 spec is now completely free right?
22:36 < juri_> yepyep.
22:36 < rigel> thats a change for the better anyway
22:36 <@kanzure> i heard something to that effect
22:36 <@kanzure> but there are some others that aren't.
22:36 < juri_> i'm looking at implementing it for tony.. but i also need to eat. ;)
22:36 < rigel> yeah
22:36 < rigel> epic rules the roost
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22:37 < rigel> are you aware of scott silverstein?
22:37 < rigel> he's at drexel in philly
22:37 < juri_> he's fishing for customers who need pieces of it, and i'm doing wht i can to implement it at a low cost.
22:37 < juri_> nopenope.
22:37 < rigel> writes as "informaticsMD" at hcrenewal.blogspot.com
22:37 < juri_> as we speak, i'm tweaking OpenEMR to make it usable for tablet-type devices.
22:38 < rigel> roy poses, the ringleaderof that blog, is an activist on conflict of interest issues
22:38 < rigel> spoke at wikimania this past year, which is where i know him from
22:38 < rigel> anyway, silverstein has a whole lot to say on EMRs and "good health IT vs bad health IT"
22:39 < rigel> i tend to agree with much of what he has to say
22:39 < juri_> I'll keep an eye on it.
22:40 < rigel> can you tell me any more about your relationship to CPT codes?
22:40 < rigel> i've been screaming about that for a while too, not many people want to listen but i have gotten a few people interested just because of the AMA monopoly issue
22:40 < rigel> my understanding is that the CPT codes are licensed on a per-seat basis
22:41 < rigel> which means the AMA gets money from every person who uses an EMR regardless of if they do billing
22:42 < rigel> it is the AMA's single biggest revenue source, interestingly. they get more revenue from that than from selling doctors' prescribing information to pharmaceutical marketing firms
22:44 < juri_> not excessive; i specialized in mental health for 2 years.
22:44 < juri_>   
22:44 < juri_> sorry, i'm going through a lag burst. 
22:44 < juri_> bad-versison.
22:44 < juri_> ok, un-lagged. :)
22:45 < juri_> yea, i'm much more familiar with the DSM-IV.
22:45 < rigel> hrm
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22:46 < juri_> since i was working for a mental health facility customizing OpenEMR for two years.. and they were pretty crazy, I learned a lot about changing OpenEMR quickly.
22:47 < rigel> yeah. php makes me break out in hives
22:47 < juri_> not me. just another language.
22:48 < rigel> yeah, i can totally respect that, i just have some blocks that i havent had the inclination or time to break through
22:48 < rigel> much more interesting the money flows behind modern medicine
22:48 < rigel> i mentioned the drug marketing thing in one of our small groups today and people looked pretty horrified
22:48 < juri_> I don't get to involve myself in that, as i'm just an IT geek (all over the board in IT, but almost all IT)...
22:49 < juri_> so, i do what i can to lower health care costs, by making health IT better, and Free.
22:50 < rigel> ive wondered for a while about UX in EHRs
22:50 < rigel> there doesnt seem to be a set of best practices
22:50  * juri_ nods.
22:50 < juri_> what i've been doing for the last month is 95% user interface.
22:51 < rigel> and it seems like for FOSS EMR?EHRs to succeed there needs to be a set of guidelines and principles
22:51 < rigel> not that that will make them succeed, but its a limiting factor anyway
22:51 < juri_> I set a standard, and make sure my commits reach it, but..
22:51 < juri_> there's 500,000 lines of PHP in this tree.
22:51 < rigel> like a think tank or something
22:51 < juri_> I could work on it all year, and not add a single feature... and probably cut the code in a third. ;P
22:52 < juri_> the management of the proect is useless, as well.
22:52 < juri_> typical "i make money supporting my customers, buzz off!' mentality.
22:52 < rigel> orly
22:52 < juri_> yea.
22:52 < rigel> thats interesting
22:53 < juri_> its facepalm-worthy.
22:53 < rigel> im sure
22:53 < juri_> i report security issues (like, any one with an account being able to dump the entire medical database with a small script, and get a 'thanks! we'll fix that in the next release.'
22:53 <@kanzure> http://repo.or.cz/w/openemr.git/blob/HEAD:/admin.php
22:54 <@kanzure> in my professional opinion, this is not sane
22:54 < rigel> i wonder how much money you would need to get a bunch of customizers, UX people, and docs into a room to hash this oout into a set of principles or at least heuristics
22:54 <@kanzure> mixing templates with logic things is crazy in 2013, even for php
22:54 <@kanzure> php repented years ago about this
22:54 < rigel> and where you could get said money
22:55 < juri_> kanzure: again, preaching to the choir.
22:55 <@kanzure> sometimes you have to just forget a codebase
22:55 < juri_> I'm doing what i can to not have to do that.
22:56 < juri_> i've been approached by people about forking this, but i need money to survive while doing it.
22:56 <@kanzure> eh at least you keep track of migrations http://repo.or.cz/w/openemr.git/tree/HEAD:/sql
22:56 < nmz787> heh, just helped an old friend with some math homework
22:56 < nmz787> there was a month of high tide times, and she needed to extrapolate 4 days
22:56 < nmz787> so i basically did it for her, with her on chat, in a google spreadsheet
22:56 < nmz787> got the diff, got the mean, got the std dev
22:57 < nmz787> google is broken regarding time maths
22:57 <@kanzure> do it in python
22:57 < nmz787> so i ended up having to split the timestamp with a : token and do maths when it failed
22:57 < rigel> RUBY ON RAILS, DUDER
22:57 < nmz787> she doesn't have them
22:57 <@kanzure> see https://datanitro.com/
22:58 <@kanzure> python bindings to common spreadsheet things
22:58 < nmz787> so i signed up for teselagen
22:58 < nmz787> got an account
22:59 < nmz787> and now the dude who sent the email from them confirming my account wants to friend me on linkedin
22:59 < nmz787> don't these people read the TOS
22:59 < nmz787> i remember it mentioning MET IN PERSON
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23:06 <@kanzure> ouch "Makes me wonder how many years in prison the prosecutors would give you if you just walked into JSTOR and stole one of their hard drives. It's not even a federal crime anymore."
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23:06 < nsh> :/
23:07 < rigel> i have so many people who've asked me to join them on linkedin
23:07 < rigel> i dont see the fucking point
23:07 < rigel> it's b-school friendster
23:08 < rigel> i dont want any of those thieving motherfuckers knowing my name let alone how to contact me
23:08 < rigel> if i have to have them over for dinner or something i make sure to inventory the good silver and the sterno both before and after
23:08 < nsh> lol
23:11 < nmz787> man this teselagen program is too much
23:11 < nmz787> gentle and aPe were pretty decent DNA editors, why can't someone literally just remake them but better
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23:12 < nmz787> their tutorials are text-heavy
23:12 < nmz787> and it's written in flash
23:13 < nmz787> if it's in flash, the tutorials should be >75% pics
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23:15 < nmz787> in another life i would be an animator
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23:18 <@kanzure> web tools are the last thing you really want to use for genome work
23:18 <@kanzure> but i might consider a web interface to managing a fleet of workers that are computing away on a problem
23:18 < nmz787> oh, i think it's just a pro version of jbei's j5
23:19 < nmz787> psh, well, not for me, not today at least
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23:23 <@kanzure> objdump web service thing: http://onlinedisassembler.com/odaweb/run_hex
23:25 < nmz787> anyone in here take a GRE test recently?
23:43 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/337/6096/816.abstract
23:43 < paperbot> error: didn't find any pdfs on http://www.sciencemag.org/content/337/6096/816.abstract
23:43 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/bc63e103e8d4cc3df3ac96861fef27fa
23:50 -!- bl3it2ze2n is now known as do3nn2er2n
--- Log closed Wed Jan 16 00:00:32 2013