--- Log opened Tue Jan 22 00:00:37 2013
00:06 < nmz787> zi jian
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01:07 < eleitl> good morning
01:07 < eleitl> my plan is to bring in the more practically-minded Zero State people into this IRC channel
01:07 < eleitl> objections?
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03:28 < eleitl> guise
03:28 < eleitl> anyone use Foswiki?
03:29 < eleitl> we currently use Confluence (nonprofit free license) but would switch to a real FLOSS solution, if there's one
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04:29 < eleitl> anyone awake? ping.
04:33 < juri_> yea, but you don't care about me. i'm a nobody, around here. :)
04:34 < eleitl> nobody is a nobody
04:35 < eleitl> channels looks deader than usual
04:35 < juri_> i just got done reading the last two days backlog. my brain is spinning with dna methylization.
04:36 < eleitl> manipulating life is unfortunately rather hard
04:36 < eleitl> it's not designed to be easily hackable
04:36 < juri_> this place is highly educational, to me. after all, i'm a computational/electrical/mechanical geek, wishing bio was at the same level, and hoping to capitalize on the aforementioned three skill domains to help the 4th.
04:37 < eleitl> I think bio will be easier when we have easy I/O to DNA sequences
04:37 < eleitl> if you have a DNA compiler, which is easy, fast and cheap it will be fun
04:37 < juri_> good luck with that. bios is a very wet and squishy domain. ;)
04:37 < eleitl> yeah, you need reasonably good nanotechnology for that
04:38 < eleitl> probably another 30 years
04:38 < eleitl> outside of my time horizon
04:38 < juri_> I'd like to help the 'printing organs' problem. i have a lot of motivation in that field, being hypoglycemic, and having parents whos organs are starting to fall apart. there's probably nothing i can do for them, but... i wouldn't be a hacker if i didn't try.
04:39 < eleitl> we will probably have to culture mammal cells for our SENS project
04:39 < eleitl> not sure it happens, time is a bit tight
04:40 < juri_> yea, at first, i was trying to design a cell printer, but the scale up from the cell-movers to printing is too large. gotta print a lot of cells at once, and exocellular matricies...
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04:41 < eleitl> I would actually try by starting culturing cells first
04:41 < eleitl> they are very delicate
04:41 < eleitl> your hardware needs to be built around that
04:41 < juri_> at this rate, it will be a year of reading this channel before i can decide on something progressive to do. ;)
04:41  * juri_ nods.
04:41 < eleitl> I wouldn't wait, I would start growing things
04:41 < eleitl> bacteria or algae first, as they're easy
04:41 < eleitl> then move on to the hardier animal cell types
04:42 < juri_> i'm going to build a better microscope than the none i've got, first.
04:42 < eleitl> I would buy a cheap one off amazon or ebay
04:42 < eleitl> a cheap *good* one, that is
04:42 < eleitl> what's your budget?
04:42 < juri_> i was thinking something with trinary vision, and the ability to pull off detail at scales that would be useful for printing thin films of material.
04:43 < juri_> $0. but.. i fix stuff. ;)
04:43 < eleitl> binocular, with a camera tubus?
04:44 < phm> Hi, eleitl, you're in OpenQwaq? I wanted to say 'hi' but you're always idle.
04:44 < juri_> trinocular, with auto-focus-match, and the ability to scale resolution by just adding more cameras.
04:44 < juri_> probably laptop webcams or something like that.
04:44 < eleitl> phm, I'm at work
04:44 < eleitl> I can try loggin in from here, but I don't have video here
04:45 < phm> ah. No problem. I'll catch you later, prob.
04:45 < eleitl> plus, I have a support call coming up shortly
04:45 < eleitl> catch you laters, phm
04:46 < eleitl> I would go for megapixel CMOS at least
04:46 < juri_> i don't quite know if i have that lying around, at the moment.
04:47 < phm> and hello H+ people. I come from zerostate (but not really a member of anywhere)
04:47 < eleitl> I've invited some Zero State people over, as there's no point in having an own IRC channel almost nobody uses
04:48 < juri_> makes sense to me.. but its more a kanzure question/statement. ;)
04:48 < phm> I have questions! But maybe I lurk a while first :-)
04:49 < eleitl> I've actually put a 50 EUR Aldi microscope with USB eyepiece at our lab, as a placeholder until we have a real budget
04:49 < eleitl> at least you can look at the algae cells, or see whether your reverse osmosis is overgrown with bugs
04:50 < juri_> nice.
04:51 < juri_> yea, i'm trying to get something put together with the mechanics to follow a 'print head'.
04:51 < eleitl> you should probably hack a small USB microscope for that
04:51 < juri_> something capable of moving on an X-Y plane, possibly using cdrom drive parts.
04:51 < eleitl> just attach it to the print head
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04:52 < eudoxia> hello phm, eleitl
04:52 < juri_> my current 'print head' design is a glass tube mounted to old blu-ray parts. ;)
04:52 < eleitl> hail eudoxia
04:52 < phm> Hullo
04:52 < juri_> not exactly sturdy enough to mount a microscope to.
04:52 < eleitl> eudoxia, have you ever used Foswiki?
04:52 < eudoxia> i only used mediawiki because i'm such a pleb
04:53 < eleitl> we're currently on Confluence, but I'd like to kick that habit
04:53 < juri_> I use trac for my sites.
04:53 < juri_> (linuxpmi.org being the major one)
04:54 < phm> eleitl: Are you a Smalltalker? I was just looking at piercms.
04:54 < juri_> </shameless_plug>
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04:54 < eleitl> No, I'm an admirer, but nonuser.
04:55 < eleitl> we need to be more driven by practicality/usability, and lowest common denominator
04:55 < eleitl> I've only picked Confluence because Darwin could use that
04:55 < juri_> right now i use trac as a wiki / (trouble_ticket+milestones+wiki=project_manager), but use gitorious for managing source code.
04:55 < eleitl> we need something enterprise-wonky, with WYSIWYG editor
04:57 < phm> eleitl: Why did you say 'I really dislike wikis'? I'm curious.
04:58 < eleitl> contributor friction is too high
04:58 < eleitl> you need to login, use weird syntax, etc.
04:59 < eleitl> for office users, that's all nonobvious
04:59 < phm> What is the alternative?
04:59 < eleitl> a wiki which does WYSIWYG editing
04:59 < eleitl> for me personally I'll be probably picking up Fossil
05:00 < juri_> tried etherpad?
05:00 < eleitl> it would be nice if Fossil did things like Redmine/Chiliproject, but you have to start somewhere
05:00 < eleitl> I've heard of etherpad
05:01 < juri_> I've used it a bit. its a neat concept.
05:05 < eleitl> whoa, snail project would cost 20 kUSD minimum
05:10 < eleitl> at least we can share the microscope with SENS
05:11 < eudoxia> eleitl: i don't think kanz will have any objections to bringing in more practical people
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05:12 < eleitl> that's my beef with Zero State: despite professing to be practical, only a handful of usual suspects are doing something actual
05:14 < phm_> What features does OpenQwaq offer for multiple users editing one document simultaneously?
05:15 < eleitl> they just allow people access OpenOffice document
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05:15 < eleitl> arbitration is by being in the same room
05:15 < eleitl> you see the green laser beams as sign of activity
05:16 < eleitl> it doesn't scale for a crowd, obviusly
05:16 < phm_> hmmm
05:16 < eleitl> basically, it works like a real physical whiteboard
05:16 < phm_> Have you used it for anything serious?
05:17 < eleitl> we've used OpenQwaq for conferences and board meetings
05:18 < eleitl> even for people in the same city, it really saves on travel
05:18 < eleitl> you can instantiate new rooms so that audio doesn't interfere
05:18 < phm_> and it works well?
05:19 < eleitl> multimedia works very well
05:19 < eleitl> casting video on avatar and wall works well
05:19 < eleitl> audio quality is good
05:19 < phm_> Yeah, I tried that. Very impressed.
05:19 < eleitl> needs headset, but everything is better with a headset anyway
05:19 < phm_> Shame I can't get the linux client to run, thought.
05:20 < phm_> What is the connection between ZS and 3DICC?
05:22 < phm_> Does kanz have objections about impractical people?
05:23 < eleitl> moment
05:23 < eudoxia> he has objections against transhumanists who think blogging will bring about the glorious h+ future
05:23 < phm_> hehe
05:23 < phm_> So where will the commune be setup, and when?
05:24 < eudoxia> wait a minute i'm a little out of the ZS loop
05:24 < eudoxia> what commune?
05:25 < eleitl> no connection to 3dicc
05:25 < eleitl> I just know Giulio, and he has a deal with 3dicc
05:25 < phm_> ah
05:25 < eleitl> Ron Teitelbaum is a cool guy, he lets us use his servers
05:26 < phm_> Yeah. I wondered why all the ZS stuff was in their lobby
05:26 < eleitl> our cryo org is also using it
05:26 < eleitl> moment, have to call a user
05:26 < eleitl> bbl
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05:27 < phm_> I'm thinking if you want to do practical stuff you really need a commune.
05:28 < eleitl> stupid user haven't given me a phone number
05:28 < phm_> pref a floating city. But who has the resources for that?
05:28 < eleitl> you don't need a commune
05:28 < eleitl> you just need a central point where people can go to
05:28 < eudoxia> why would you want a floating city
05:28 < eleitl> and a budget
05:28 < eudoxia> everything would have to be brought by helicopter or something
05:28 < phm_> It helps if the people don't have far to go. i.e. they live and sleep together.
05:29 < eleitl> meh
05:29 < phm_> it would be self sufficient.
05:29  * eleitl dislikes people
05:30 < phm_> It needs to be floating so you have a better shot at sovereignty
05:30 < eleitl> a ship or an island would do
05:30 < phm_> a ship with people on it is a floating city.
05:30 < eleitl> e.g. let's say you have to combine perfusion and euthanasia
05:31 < phm_> the islands all have owners
05:31 < eleitl> that's a great way to go jail
05:31 < eudoxia> or an undersea city on the conshelf in international waters
05:31 < eleitl> old ships are cheap enough
05:31 < eudoxia> seriously a floating city would just get drone-struck to death
05:31 < phm_> We could claim Mars, but who has the resources for that? Elon Musk?
05:31 < eleitl> phm_ : please send me your drugs. don't bogart them.
05:32 < phm_> hehe. I will.
05:32 < phm_> I am doing so.
05:32 < eleitl> I thought the South Sea Bubble was absurdly ambitious, but at least it has a chance of getting some leverage there
05:32 < eudoxia> let's just work with what we've got for now
05:32 < eleitl> yeah, we're founding a mortician company
05:32 < phm_> who would drone strike a peaceful nation? Oh....!
05:33 < phm_> Didn't I mention the Nuclear Doomsday device? It's the only way.
05:33 < eleitl> so that we can route around the automatic misdemeanor charges when touching patients
05:34 < eleitl> we're still stuck with absurdly conservative declaration of death criteria, but I think the only way to route around that is to change jurisdiction
05:34 < eleitl> once you can do the procedure, it doesn't matter much where you can do it, with some setup time, of course
05:35 < eleitl> but it will probably take 3-5 years to learn the procedure, if you start from scratch
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05:37 < eleitl> am I making sense?
05:37 < juri_> not yet. :)
05:37 < eleitl> we're bootstrapping a cryonics provider
05:38 < eleitl> will co-operate with CI/Alcor for our local patients
05:38 < eleitl> perfusion here, vitrification here, shipping on dry ice overseas to storage
05:39 < eleitl> it's the only way, as transport takes up to a week
05:40 < eleitl> in order to be able to handle "dead" bodies you need to be a mortician, or related
05:40 < eleitl> so we hack the legal system to establish a pro forma/shell mortician company
05:40 < eleitl> nonprofit
05:41 < eleitl> legilation for that is about to be tightened, so we need to get in asap
05:41 < eleitl> higher threshold of entry
05:42 < eleitl> makes more sense now?
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05:44 < phm_> Have any transhuman startups made any serious money yet?
05:44 < eleitl> how do you define a transhuman startup?
05:44 < phm_> hmmmm
05:45 < phm_> One that cares deeply about the future of humanity?
05:45 < phm_> One the wishes to minimise suffering?
05:45 < phm_> that
05:45 < eleitl> says so in the official PR, or just thinks silently, to himself?
05:46 < eleitl> not aware of any transhumanist startups
05:46 < eudoxia> what about halcyon?
05:46 < phm_> says so officially.
05:46 < eleitl> it's dead, jim.
05:46 < phm_> does spaceX count? Maybe not.
05:46 < eleitl> space is 1960s
05:46 < eleitl> so is cryonics, natch
05:47 < eudoxia> i know it's dead, but i'd heard it was "secretly an uploading company"
05:47 < eudoxia> or some shit, i dunno
05:47 < eleitl> it was, but it isn't anymore
05:47 < eudoxia> last i heard someone beat them to the electron microscope market?
05:47 < eudoxia> or was it sequencing?
05:47 < phm_> what did halcyon do to make money and why did it die??
05:47 < eleitl> sequencing
05:47 < eleitl> they basically commited a rookie mistake
05:47 < eleitl> got trolled by a company release
05:48 < phm_> I thought transhumanists would be uber smart
05:48 < eleitl> "our job is done"
05:48 < eleitl> the venture capitalists pulled the money
05:48 < eleitl> transhumanists are frequently unreasonable
05:48 < eleitl> which is in the job description, if you think of it
05:49 < eleitl> unfortunately, comes with side effects
05:49 < eudoxia> in what way was it secretly an uploading company?
05:49 < eleitl> like pulling dumb shit, now and then
05:49 < phm_> My plan is still hack into a bank. But don't worry. I'm insane, so nobody believes me.
05:49 < eleitl> Randal told me so
05:49 < eleitl> he actually suggested I should apply
05:50 < eleitl> thanks, no more startups for me
05:53 < phm_> I spoke to Spencer about a commune. He said a few people were interested in it.
05:53 < phm_> I think it's very important.
05:53 < eleitl> I don't see the point of a commune
05:53 < phm_> you're a misanthrope.
05:53 < eleitl> I already live in a commune, three generations under one roof
05:53 < eleitl> that's as commie as it gets
05:53 < phm_> can I come and live with you?
05:54 < eleitl> Not my house, unfortunately.
05:54 < eleitl> If it was, I'd put down the money to run my own lab.
05:54 < eudoxia> how many times have cryonicists planned to build a libertopian commune?
05:54 < eudoxia> it will never happen
05:54 < eleitl> exactly, eudoxia
05:54 < eleitl> cryonicists are completely unreasonable people, mostly
05:55 < phm_> leaving with your comrades offers massive advantages
05:55 < phm_> living
05:55 < eleitl> it assumes social cohesiveness and compatibility which is just not there
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05:56 < phm_> and you did say we need a central point. A commune is that. but save travel time by sleeping there.
05:56 < eleitl> you need a special type of person to thrive in a commune
05:56 < eudoxia> moving to Factor e Farm would indirectly do more for transhumanism thatn living in a commune where people do nothing more than play eclipse phase and blog about the singularity
05:56 < eudoxia> and everyone wears a watch with Unix time
05:57 < eleitl> Living in Factor E would be a close approximation to personal nightmare
05:57 < phm_> The idea is to get resources. Without resources we are powerless.
05:58 < phm_> I thought all transhumans could live together. I may be mistaken.
05:58 < eudoxia> you'd still be contributing to open manufacturing
05:58 < eleitl> Transhumanists or transhumans?
05:58 < eudoxia> important distinction
05:58 < eleitl> Transhumans will probably eat you.
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05:58 < phm_> The problem with humans living together is emotions. Transhumans have solved that problem.
05:59 < eleitl> Transhumanists would probably be annoying, and bathe too little.
05:59 < phm_> I only eat things dumber than me.
05:59 < phm_> yes, I hate bathing.
05:59 < eleitl> Look at Factor E, it's a major fuckup.
05:59 < eleitl> Neat idea, poor execution.
06:00 < phm_> So they weren't fully fledged transhumans?
06:00 < eleitl> Clean water? Sanitation? Who needs these.
06:00 < eudoxia> also marcin going crazy and stuff
06:00 < eleitl> It's only the major killer on this planet, and a completely solved problem elsewhere. But there.
06:00 < ThomasEgi> a clean environment will only lower your immune system's guard
06:01 < phm_> Washing with water is overrated IMO
06:01 < eleitl> What is Marcin's mental health situation?
06:01 < eudoxia> eleitl something about how meditating allows him to download a greater quantity of whatever
06:01 < ThomasEgi> phm_, dust bathing ;)?
06:01 < eleitl> but he's not gone stark raving mad bonkers
06:01 < eleitl> ?
06:02 < phm_> maybe
06:02 < eudoxia> grep marcin *.log | grep sane *.log, it should be there
06:02 < phm_> What was he like before the experiment?
06:03 < eleitl> how do you make irssi keep a log?
06:08 < phm_> How did Factor E go wrong? What can I read on the topic?
06:09 < eleitl> Have you read http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-01/the-post-apocalypse-survival-machine-nerd-farm#p1 ?
06:10 < eleitl> If Marcin indeed has mental problems, that's probably completely unrelated. If anything, the experiment is probably related. Assuming he has problems, I don't know the guy from Adam.
06:11 < phm_> too much dirt. Transhumans would not live in so much dirt.
06:11 < eleitl> Transhumans might, but transhumanists won't.
06:11 < sbp> cf. http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Power_Cube
06:11 < phm_> And not enough computers.
06:11 < eudoxia> transhumans would be adaptable
06:12 < eleitl> I need my wood stove and my hot shower, and my hardwood floors, and my video projector.
06:12 < eleitl> Fuck yurts.
06:12 < phm_> exactly
06:14 < phm_> So a ZS commune would be nothing like Factor E, I think
06:14 < eleitl> Not sure. I think I can get along with Amon, and a few others.
06:14 < phm_> if you're transhuman you can.
06:15 < eleitl> I'm not transhuman, I'm a transhumanist.
06:15 < phm_> then maybe you will fail.
06:15 < phm_> at communal living
06:15 < eleitl> My chances of becoming transhuman are rather slim.
06:15 < phm_> define transhuman?
06:16 < eleitl> They will become somewhat better if we manage to get the cryonics provider working, and if we get a chance of working on uploading the snail.
06:16 < phm_> maybe if you're half way there it will be OK.
06:16 < eleitl> If I'm half there I'm a head in a dewar.
06:16 < phm_> I don't understand
06:16 < eleitl> I'd rather postpone that as far as it gets, thanks.
06:17 < eleitl> A transhumanist is a person striving to become transhuman.
06:17 < phm_> how do you define this?
06:17 < eleitl> A transhuman does not use the biological substrate.
06:17 < eleitl> It's a god, a power.
06:18 < phm_> ohh! I understood that one could be biological and transhuman.
06:18 < eleitl> Some people seem to think that.
06:18 < phm_> I do.
06:18 < eleitl> For very small values for transhuman, maybe.
06:18 < phm_> of course. so half way there doesn't mean head in dewar.
06:18 < eleitl> Look! I've cut myself! I'm a transhuman, because a have a rare earth magnet in my fingertip!
06:19 < phm_> I don't understand.
06:19 < eleitl> Bow before me!
06:19 < phm_> no transhuman would ask another to bow
06:19 < eleitl> Exactly.
06:19 < eleitl> Only emo transhumanists do that.
06:19 < phm_> Ignore them.
06:20 < eleitl> Seriously, what's the point in inflationary use?
06:20 < eleitl> So now we have to use posthuman?
06:20 < phm_> hmmm? for what? Just use a sliding scale?
06:21 < eleitl> how can you be a transhuman, if you're mostly biology?
06:21 < phm_> you can be 10%
06:21 < eleitl> how?
06:21 < eleitl> show me
06:21 < phm_> you can get 10% just by understanding the right philosophy books, I feel.
06:22 < eleitl> Then, we will never agree.
06:22 < phm_> I might change my mind.
06:22 < eleitl> Let's say I run around with Google Glasses, and have an exocortex in the cloud.
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06:22 < eleitl> Am I transhuman?
06:22 < eleitl> Nope, I'm a monkey on crutches.
06:23 < phm_> So you guys all mean by transhuman: 'uploaded with god like powerz' ?
06:23 < phm_> sure. running around with glasses gives you nothing
06:23 < eleitl> I would say that being solid state would be the entry level to that, yets.
06:23 < eleitl> Google Glasses.
06:23 < eleitl> Shitty AR.
06:23 < phm_> cyborg is not transhuman. right.
06:24 < phm_> not alone.
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06:24 < eudoxia> i'd use 'posthuman' to refer to god-like folks and moon-sized brains
06:24 < eudoxia> 'transhuman' for 'working on it''
06:24 < phm_> maybe I can say you have to be 'enlightened' to be able to live in a commune. Are you enlightened?
06:24 < ThomasEgi> and sun-sized batteries^ ;)
06:24 < eudoxia> or 'better than human but not that much'
06:24  * eleitl is now officially a posthumanist
06:25  * eleitl only posts humus now
06:25 < eudoxia> :)
06:25 < phm_> size is an illusion
06:25 < eleitl> atoms are unfortunately pretty big
06:25 < eleitl> so, size is not an illusion
06:26 < eleitl> no femtotechnology for you, natch
06:26 < phm_> you're assuming we know everything about physics?
06:26 < eleitl> I assume there is no reason to assume magic
06:26 < phm_> be agnostic.
06:27 < eleitl> There are too many different brands of magic to choose from. I'll pass, thanks.
06:27 < eleitl> Strictly no invisible pink unicorns.
06:27 < phm_> but it would make you happy!
06:27 < phm_> they would
06:27 < phm_> probably
06:28  * eleitl will implement elves first
06:28 < eleitl> then we'll see about unicorns, invisible, or otherwise
06:28 < chris_99> did someone say they're going to breed unicorns? :)
06:28 < phm_> As you wish.
06:29 < eleitl> not breed, implement
06:29 < eleitl> equines with horns are boring
06:30 < phm_> Are you 'enlightened'? Can you control your emotions and always think rationally?
06:30 < eleitl> Logic is a pretty flower that smells bad.
06:31 < phm_> I'm not sure why you said that.
06:31 < eleitl> It's something Spock said once.
06:31 < phm_> Please try to explain.
06:31 < phm_> What did he mean?
06:31 < eleitl> I don't understand this 'rational' thing. What is it good for?
06:31 < phm_> getting at the truth.
06:31 < phm_> seeing falsehoods
06:32 < eleitl> Why do you exist? Why do you bother get ouf the bed in the morning?
06:32 < eleitl> Logic is no part of that.
06:32 < phm_> I don't know. Who cares?
06:32 < eleitl> Exactly. Rationality, who cares?
06:32 < phm_> It can't answer all questions. So what?
06:32 < phm_> but it can answer a lot of questions.
06:33 < phm_> So rationality is very useful
06:33 < eleitl> Sure, it's a tool.
06:33 < phm_> yes, so you understand what it's good for.
06:33 < eleitl> Yes, yes, I understand, I just don't understand your original question.
06:34 < eleitl> 'Enlightened'? What the hell is that?
06:34 < phm_> undefined
06:34 < phm_> but why did spock say logic smell bad?
06:35 < phm_> cos it wouldn't tell him why he exists?
06:35 < eleitl> http://gowers.wordpress.com/2013/01/16/why-ive-also-joined-the-good-guys/ <-- Episciences, an ArXiV overlay
06:35 < eleitl> he wanted to crash a stupid probe
06:35 < eleitl> it did him the favor
06:36 < eleitl> eat flaming death, Elsevier
06:36 < phm_> that made it crash? How?
06:37 < phm_> I don't really like spock
06:38 < eleitl> I don't do Star Trek, it's just a single quote I like to reuse
06:38 < phm_> He always says dumb things, like: I can't play poker cos I'm too logical.
06:39 < phm_> and he's like 'kurk you must teach me how you did that' and it's like freaking obvious
06:39 < phm_> the false message is 'logic makes you dumb'
06:41 < phm_>  Can you control your emotions and always think rationally?
06:41 < eleitl> I wonder how many generations are completely damaged by Star Trek and Star Wars.
06:41 < phm_> hehe
06:41 < eleitl> I've explained MNT to my nephew once.
06:41 < phm_> it's not sci-fi. It's soap opera set in space.
06:41 < eleitl> Oh, you mean it's like Star Trek!
06:42 < eleitl> No, most assuredly not, nephew.
06:42 < eudoxia> oh the replicator analogy
06:42 < phm_> I don't watch the future on TV, I invent the future.
06:42 < eudoxia> why god
06:42 < eudoxia> why
06:42 < eleitl> oy
06:42 < eleitl> it's just broken beyond redemption
06:42 < eleitl> Isaac Asimov is another of these perpetrators
06:43 < eleitl> somebody dig him out, and shoot him
06:43 < eudoxia> FTL, galactic empires...
06:43 < phm_> I like Asimov. MOstly
06:43 < eudoxia> i stopped liking him when i started reading other authors
06:44 < eleitl> There are preciously few intelligent authors.
06:44 < phm_> I guess my hope lies in seasteading. Build a floating city. Invite some smart, ethical people. Declare sovereignty. Write a constitution in Lojban. Get rid of anyone that does anything irrational or unconstitutional or unethical. Prove that a reputations based gift economy can work. Gain power by excelling at science (a la Asimov's first foundation). Help/take over the rest of the world/universe.
06:44 < eleitl> Gene Wolfe, Stanislaw Lem, Strugazkis.
06:44 < phm_> Thanks Asimov
06:44 < eleitl> a few others
06:44 < phm_> Do you like Stross?
06:44 < eudoxia> i liked The Diamond Age
06:45 < eleitl> Yeah, that one was good in places.
06:45 < eudoxia> also a Requiem for Homo Sapiens even though it's the diametral opposite of scientific
06:45  * eleitl doesn't like Stros
06:45 < eudoxia> i caught what i thought were subtle MNT references though
06:45 < phm_> Red Mars trilogy is my all time favourite sci-fi books, so far
06:45 < eleitl> I like John Crowley.
06:45 < eleitl> Peter Beagle.
06:46 < eleitl> Gene Wolfe.
06:46 < eleitl> M John Harrison is great, in places.
06:46 < phm_> but still, more fun to invent the future.
06:47 < eleitl> right, so we need money
06:47 < eleitl> just validating the snall will take 20 kUSD, minimum
06:47 < phm_> hack into a bank. They have money.
06:47 < eleitl> that's used equipment, and volunteer work
06:47 < eleitl> Hayworth's next instrument is, what, 22+ MUSD?
06:48 < eleitl> chump change
06:48 < phm_> and computer people can make money with very little investment. You're a biologist, right? So you can't really
06:49 < eleitl> right, so I just buy a production run on a 14 nm node
06:49 < eudoxia> chemist
06:49 < eleitl> very cheap
06:49 < eleitl> computer people doesn't mean software
06:50 < eleitl> Just running a modest cluster will cost you 2 MUSD/year, in juice.
06:50 < phm_> software people need the least resources, I guess. Yes, hardware advancement needs resources
06:50 < eleitl> Shit's expensive, yo.
06:50 < eleitl> Software people are limited by hardware.
06:50 < phm_> software is the best bang for your buck
06:50 < eleitl> Software by itself is useless.
06:50 < phm_> Not really
06:51 < phm_> We have plenty of hardware in the world.
06:51 < eleitl> Yes?
06:51 < eleitl> Where?
06:51 < phm_> it's all over the place. Even in washing machines.
06:51 < eleitl> I need Avogadro number of bits. Where can I buy these?
06:51 < phm_> I don't understand your question
06:51 < eleitl> 10^23 bits is not a large installation, a single rack would do
06:52 < phm_> What are you trying to do?
06:52 < eleitl> so why can I only put a single measly petabyte into that rack?
06:52 < eleitl> because our hardware sucks
06:52 < eleitl> Try imaging a ~1 liter object at ~nm voxel resolution.
06:52 < phm_> But I don't need petabytes of bits to do cool stuff
06:53 < eleitl> perhaps your stuff is not so cool as you think it is
06:53 < phm_> it might be nice, but we have a lot of scope with the hardware we already have. Hardware isn't holding us back, software is.
06:53 < eleitl> absolutely not, our hardware makes our software useless
06:53 < phm_> not for most thing.
06:54 < eleitl> you could breed software with hardware
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06:54 < eleitl> not the other way round
06:54 < phm_> that's insane.
06:54 < eleitl> How do you implement magic? Not firing up emacs, that's for sure.
06:54 < phm_> hardware must be programmed. You can't avoid that. And the best way to program is with software.
06:54 < eleitl> How do you implement artificial intelligence? Certainly not by firing up gdb.
06:55 < phm_> maybe. We don't know.
06:55 < eleitl> we do know, because our brain does about the entire work of all the silicon on the planet right now
06:55 < phm_> I think we can make a lot of progress in A.I with the hardware we already have.
06:55 < eleitl> I would sure like to see evidence for that
06:56 < phm_> just because the brain doesn't do it like that doesn't mean computers can't
06:56 < eleitl> Ever tried simulating what a fly does? A fly does a surprising amount of work, it turns out.
06:56 < phm_> you see evidence all the time. Computers are getting better and better at Go
06:56 < eleitl> And what does that tell us?
06:57 < phm_> That weak A.I is advancing and that there is more room for improvement without different hardware.
06:57 < eleitl> Wow, Paul allen put 400 MUSD where his mouth is.
06:58 < eleitl> I hope his remission is permanent.
06:59 < phm_> and how do you answer my question about needing to program hardware?
06:59 < eleitl> Who has written your program, phm_?
06:59 < eleitl> Who has implemented you?
06:59 < phm_> I can't tell you that.
06:59 < eleitl> Show me how many kLoCs you take.
06:59 < eleitl> Can I step through you with a debugger? Why not?
06:59 < phm_> Because it hurts.
07:00 < phm_> And I don't know you very well.
07:00 < eudoxia> and that, guise, is why uploading > AGI
07:00 < eleitl> No, because you're not a sequential process. You're not a program, the way IT people think of a program.
07:00 < phm_> big assumption.
07:00 < eleitl> You can do the same in solid state. In fact, it's the only thing to scale.
07:00 < eleitl> It's hard enough to define the boundary conditions.
07:01 < eleitl> Let hardware do the rest.
07:01 < eleitl> Because it's cheap. Because it's fast. Because it can take it.
07:01 < phm_> I will learn to make good hardware when I know how to write good programs.
07:01 < eleitl> Then you will never learn to make good hardware.
07:01 < phm_> that's possible
07:02 < eleitl> We already know what the optimal hardware is, we only need to build it.
07:02 < eleitl> And you can't program optimal hardware!
07:02 < phm_> I don't think we do.
07:02 < eleitl> Nothing what goes on two legs can.
07:02 < phm_> you're talking about quantum computers?
07:02 < eleitl> It is very easy to show an optimal arrangement for a classical computer
07:03 < eleitl> It's just about light cones in a relativistic universe -> closest packing
07:03 < phm_> I'm not convinced
07:03 < eleitl> If you think of software, software will not tell you that. Physics will.
07:04 < eleitl> phm_, when I have nothing to do, I can sketch you the proof
07:04 < eleitl> in case it isn't obvious
07:05 < phm_> I probably won't understand it
07:05 < phm_> I'm still not sure what proof is
07:05 < eleitl> Of course you will, you only need to know about relativistic signalling limits.
07:05 < eleitl> When you want to process data, it has to be close.
07:06 < phm_> is this ignoring quantum ideas?
07:06 < eleitl> Circuits take up space, so you're looking about the same problem as crystallography does.
07:06 < eleitl> It's a classical computer. QC won't obviously work.
07:07 < phm_> it doesn't feel right
07:07 < eleitl> what doesn't feel right?
07:07 < phm_> this proof
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07:08 < eudoxia> you haven't even
07:08 < eudoxia> what
07:09 < eleitl> if a part of a system changes state only those parts in its light cone might learn of the change of state
07:09 < phm_> It's beyond me
07:09 < eleitl> can you google light cone, phm_?
07:09 < phm_> I don't like to hear about physics, at the moment
07:10 < eudoxia> it's like you're in a 2D universe, and the Z axis is time. the cone is the trajectory described by the first photons to leave the object in the hypersurface of the present
07:10 < eudoxia> that's the future light cone
07:10 < eudoxia> the past light cone is arriving information?
07:10 < phm_> If you say so!
07:10 < eleitl> yeah, it's easiest to visualize in 1d first
07:11 < eleitl> look 1d cellular automata, and why there is a speed of light limit for signalling
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07:11 < eleitl> then do it for 2d, and 3d is just the same
07:11 < eudoxia> the light cone becomes the light hypersphere
07:11 < eleitl> phm_, don't let eudoxia confuse you with language
07:11 < phm_> it's on my list of things to study, but it seems very distant
07:11 < eleitl> it is actually very simple
07:12 < eudoxia> even i got it, so it must be
07:12 < eleitl> so just assume if you want to program an optimal computer you're programming a 3d CA with a rule you define
07:12 < eleitl> of course there's also a limit to the complexity of the rule, and the number of states/cell
07:13 < eleitl> in principle you can even use a silicon compiler to program that, but you'd be losing most of its potential
07:13 < eleitl> seen a program in minecraft?
07:13 < eleitl> that's quite a bit like that
07:13 < phm_> So what will you do when this hardware is available?
07:14 < eleitl> We will become gods, and live merrily ever after, for subjective exayears.
07:14 < phm_> How will you program for it?
07:14 < eudoxia> i once implemented rule 110 in minecraft
07:14 < eleitl> I would finagle emergence.
07:14 < phm_> gods are overrated
07:14 < eudoxia> it was pretty meh
07:14 < eleitl> But it comes with great perks! Just as not getting a tumor in your spine.
07:15 < eleitl> You should try get a tumor in your spine.
07:15 < eleitl> I'm told it fucks you up.
07:15 < phm_> How will the finagling work?
07:16 < eleitl> I would start with evolving evolvability in a GA.
07:16 < eleitl> That's hard work, so you need acres of molecular hardware.
07:16 < phm_> so no conventional programming involved?
07:17 < eleitl> No. You would have to specify boundary conditions.
07:17 < phm_> In what language?
07:17 < eleitl> Like when is a problem solved, but not how.
07:17 < eleitl> It doesn't have to be formal, it could be even interactive.
07:17 < phm_> hmmm
07:17 < eleitl> It can be formal, though.
07:18 < phm_> Are you 100% this approach will work?
07:18 < eleitl> I think it will, but the only proof of this pudding is in its eating.
07:18 < phm_> seems like a lot of speculation
07:18 < eleitl> So this is why I'm interested in molecular hardware.
07:18 < eleitl> A proof is the opposite of speculation.
07:18 < phm_> pudding is good.
07:19 < eleitl> You'll notice we're getting a sea of cores on a mesh, and also stacking.
07:19 < eleitl> That is not a coincidence.
07:19 < eleitl> We'll be getting nondeterminism next.
07:19 < eleitl> That will be fun.
07:19 < phm_> estimated time scale?
07:20 < eleitl> It took an afternoon to make a local programmer understand that his threads won't scale.
07:20 < eleitl> Well, Moore is saturating at the moment, so it's hard to tell.
07:20 < eleitl> They'll probably start hacking up architecture, now that they can't double transistors as easily.
07:21 < eleitl> Most people don't dig clusters, and it will take a while until the changed situation percolates through.
07:21 < eleitl> Meanwhile, we'll have crap slow computers.
07:22 < eleitl> I think stacking will be here in 3-4 years latest.
07:22 < eleitl> It's already there in mobiles.
07:23 < eleitl> I think the progress is limited by what's in people's heads, and that's not easily changed
07:23 < phm_> Are you optimistic about the future of humanity?
07:23 < eleitl> So far it doesn't look good, but I've been wrong before.
07:23 < eleitl> I think we'll get famines pretty soon.
07:23 < eleitl> If we don't, that World3 model is full of shit.
07:23 < eleitl> Let's hope it's full of shit.
07:24 < phm_> Because you don't like suffering?
07:24 < eleitl> Famines are typically accompanied by wars. Nobody likes wars, especially if it starts being you.
07:25 < eleitl> Trying to develop R&D even in a limited nuclear exchange scenario is kinda tough.
07:25 < phm_> ahh
07:25 < eleitl> My grandmother's pupils died of hunger, that's not so fun, I'll tell you.
07:25 < phm_> I don't understand
07:25 < phm_> ohh. students.
07:26 < eleitl> Yes, so she left her village, and went to the city.
07:26 < phm_> I have empathy
07:26 < eleitl> On foot, along the rail, because she couldn't afford the ticket.
07:26 < phm_> When do you think we'll have a Mars base?
07:26 < eleitl> And Saratov-Moscow is one hell of a walk.
07:27 < phm_> Where are you from?
07:27 < eleitl> We might never have a Mars base. Humans don't travel well.
07:27 < phm_> Surely some will want to do it, if we can.
07:27 < eleitl> We probably won't travel much beyond the inner solar system, in any case.
07:27 < eleitl> Then, you have to stop wearing that stupid man suit.
07:28 < eleitl> Solid state travels very lightly, especially if you leave the drive at home.
07:28 < eleitl> Up to 0.9 c in mere weeks.
07:28 < eleitl> Up, up and away.
07:28 < phm_> I don't like to talk about uploading
07:28 < eleitl> I don't like to talk about it, either.
07:28 < eleitl> I'd rather do it.
07:29 < eleitl> Somebody send me 20 kUSD for the snail project.
07:29 < eleitl> Imagine that, the very first immortal.
07:29 < eleitl> A common pond snail.
07:29 < eleitl> Not that it would appreciate it, the poor thing.
07:30 < phm_> I think it might.
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07:30 < eleitl> If you uplift it, maybe.
07:30 < eudoxia> that might take a while
07:30 < eudoxia> make sure to keep a copy of the scan data
07:31 < eleitl> at only 20 k neurons, a child's play!
07:31 < phm_>  Can you control your emotions and always think rationally?
07:31 < eleitl> big fat honking neurons, at that
07:31 < eleitl> why would I want to control my emotions?
07:31 < phm_> to avoid the dark side.
07:31 < eudoxia> oh no here we go again
07:32  * eleitl is actually evil, inside
07:32 < phm_> go what again?
07:32 < eleitl> I will turn this planet into Toon Town.
07:32 < eleitl> Pure insanity, on fast-forward.
07:32 < eudoxia> all this talk about emotions and rationality
07:32 < ThomasEgi> eleitl, i doubt disney will get you the rights to do this.
07:33 < eleitl> daym, you're right
07:33 < phm_> It's an important question to me.
07:33 < eleitl> we have to unfreeze him, and ask him to grant the rights
07:33 < ThomasEgi> eleitl, i know some people working on the engine behind toontown tho... but i doubt that'll get you anywhere.
07:33 < eleitl> phm_, that sounds mildly irrational
07:33 < phm_> why?
07:34 < eleitl> that whole obsession with emotion, and rationality
07:34 < phm_> there is a reason for it.
07:34 < eleitl> can you explain?
07:35 < phm_> I want everyone to be happy
07:35 < eleitl> sounds like a good plan, up to a point
07:35 < eleitl> in moderation
07:36 < eleitl> do not dial beyond the red line
07:36 < phm_> maybe
07:36 < eleitl> depressed people can be very efficient
07:36 < phm_> I don't like the sound of Elizers super-happy-funbeings
07:37 < eleitl> good he'll never be able to accomplish anything
07:37 < phm_> if you've read this: http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/
07:37 < phm_> Why do you say so?
07:38 < eleitl> because his traction for implementation is pretty much zero
07:38 < eleitl> even his writing is sterile
07:38 < phm_> you're talking about Eliezer_Yudkowsky ?
07:38 < eleitl> Eliezer is an anti-pattern of transhumanism
07:39 < phm_> interesting!
07:39 < eleitl> I have no idea why he is that way
07:39 < phm_> Why anti-pattern?
07:39 < eleitl> Becase if you do pretty much the opposite of what he's doing, you're on a pretty good track.
07:40 < phm_> What is he doing?
07:40 < eudoxia> writing
07:40 < phm_> what is the opposite of that?
07:40 < eudoxia> doing
07:40 < eleitl> To start with. But also what he is writing, it's just worse than useless.
07:40 < phm_> for example?
07:41 < eleitl> Just his idea to pick XML, what on earth?
07:41 < eudoxia> oh dear god, the Flare language?
07:41 < eleitl> I think that's what it was called, yes
07:42 < eleitl> Just the whole idea of Friendliness, it's stupid.
07:42 < phm_> Why?
07:42 < eudoxia> "guise lets replace the glory that are (butt)sexpressions with horrid, redundant, unreadable XML tags"
07:42 < eleitl> buttsexpression. I like that.
07:43 < eudoxia> it should be the name of a lisp-y markup language
07:43 < eudoxia> README.bsex
07:43 < eleitl> I like your ideas, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
07:44 < phm_> What is 'Friendliness'? Why stupid?
07:44 < eleitl> How do you define that metric?
07:44 < eleitl> How do you assert conservation of that metric across open-ended evolution?
07:44 < phm_> making friendly A.I?
07:45 < eleitl> Maybe your AI is into torture porn.
07:45 < phm_> it won't be
07:45 < eleitl> but this is how I define friendly.
07:46 < eleitl> I think everybody should be tortured to death, ad infinitum.
07:46 < eudoxia> a successful AI boxing strategy: introduce it to 4chan?
07:46 < eleitl> AI does a secure overwrite of itself
07:46 < phm_> So ethics is always subjective?
07:46 < eleitl> twice, just to make sure
07:46 < eleitl> ethics is sufficiently variable, and also limite to a context
07:46 < eudoxia> what do you mean? like shred?
07:47 < eleitl> what makes sense for monkeys, doesn't make sense for gods
07:47 < eleitl> yeah, just to make sure it won't be reinstantiated
07:47 < eleitl> the horror, the horror!
07:47 < eleitl> can't unsee
07:47 < phm_> I see. but I feel that 'worse than useless' is a bit harsh.
07:48 < eudoxia> oh no did i just introduce someone to 4chan?
07:48 < eleitl> well, if you consider how many people became Singularitan cultists... and what they would have done with their life instead...
07:48 < eudoxia> i can never forgive myself
07:48 < eleitl> Nono, moot is my hero.
07:48 < eudoxia> oh thank jesus
07:48 < eleitl> I never go there, but I get all the good things by way of fallout.
07:48 < eudoxia> i mean clippy
07:49 < eleitl> Speaking of 4chan, have you seen imgur gone to shit in just one week?
07:49 < phm_> I don't think Eliezer can turn anyone into a cultist.
07:49 < eleitl> Most remarkable.
07:49 < eleitl> My eyesockets bled.
07:49 < eleitl> Yeah, you have to be a pretty strange being to find the idea sensible, so I guess not.
07:50 < phm_> I enjoyed his story 'three worlds collide'. Did you not?
07:50 < eudoxia> i don't use imgur
07:50 < eudoxia> phm is it the one with the baby eating aliens?
07:50 < phm_> yep
07:50 < eleitl> sorry, I didn't read it. There was a story?
07:51 < phm_> http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/
07:51 < eleitl> right, I'm already there
07:51 < eleitl> I just seen the few lines of text, and comments, so I thought there was no story
07:55 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:55 < eleitl> can you give me a tl;dr?
07:56 < eudoxia> yeah me too
07:57 < phm_> when I said I didn't want to be like the super-happy-fun-beings I was talking about the aliens in that story. They're always having sex
07:57 < phm_> and they want everyone else to be happy
07:58 < eudoxia> and apparently they are into infanticidal vore
07:58 < phm_> that's a different race
07:58 < eudoxia> oh
07:59 < phm_> the super-happy-fun aliens kill the baby eaters
07:59 < phm_> to prevent suffering
07:59 < phm_> and the humans are in the middle
08:01 < phm_> the humans can't decide if to wipe out the baby eaters or not
08:01 < phm_> some say yes, some say no
08:02 < eleitl> they all seem pretty insane so far
08:02 < phm_> it makes sense to me.
08:02 < phm_> I enjoyed it, anyway
08:03 < eudoxia> i didn't understand the part with the magic translatopr
08:03 < eudoxia> translator*
08:03 < phm_> why not?
08:03 < eleitl> with the tl;dr, I did not mean the story, but the pedagogical intent
08:03 < eudoxia> because you can't just translate the language of an alien race
08:04 < eleitl> you can't travel faster than light, either
08:04 < eleitl> it would fuck up causality
08:04 < phm_> why not? It seemed plausible to me.
08:04 < eleitl> Because physics.
08:04 < phm_> I mean about the translating. Not FTL
08:04 < eleitl> FTL is equivalent to causality violation.
08:04 < phm_> I don't know about that
08:04 < eleitl> Of course you can't translate jack squat either.
08:04 < phm_> you sound very confident
08:05 < eleitl> The whole story is not very realistic. I did expect that.
08:05 < eleitl> I send you output of /dev/random. What is your translation?
08:05 < phm_> So you won't read any sci-fi with FTL travel?
08:05 < phm_> /dev/random is not intelligent
08:06 < eleitl> I don't do suspension of disbelief very well, I'm afraid
08:06 < eleitl> how do you know /dev/random isn't?
08:06 < phm_> I assume it isn't
08:06 < eleitl> I don't understand how people can watch Hollywood blockbusters
08:06 < eleitl> the physics is just visibly, jarringly wrong, all. the. time.
08:06 < phm_> you just need a pinch of salt. It's easy.
08:07 < eleitl> a gigaton of rock salt might do
08:08 < eleitl> anyways, what's the pedagogical destillation of that thing?
08:08 < eleitl> I've read a couple chapters, and I won't read the whole thing.
08:08 < phm_> just questions about ethics
08:08 < phm_> How fast do you read?
08:08 < eleitl> Seems like an awful waste of human life.
08:08 < phm_> what is a waste?
08:08 < eleitl> I can read a couple books a day, if I have to.
08:09 < phm_> Are you a genius?
08:09 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-6-200.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: lunch]
08:09 < eleitl> Excuse me?
08:09 < phm_> Would you describe yourself as a genius?
08:10 < eleitl> Nope.
08:11 < phm_> Would anyone else?
08:11 < eleitl> Haven't met a genius yet. A few impressive people, yes.
08:11 < ThomasEgi> in certain , very limited subjects maybe. but not universal.
08:12 < eleitl> The probability of meeting a genius is low, these are one in a million outliers.
08:12 < phm_> I wonder if anyone alive is close to Von Neumann
08:13 < eleitl> no way to tell
08:13 < eleitl> you can't even measure that, it's off-scale
08:13 < phm_> Have you read Godel, Escher, Bach?
08:13 < eleitl> I wish I could meet a fully functional Prometheus society guy, who's actually kicking ass
08:14 < phm_> GEBanEGB
08:14 < eleitl> GEB is also rather sterile. Not nearly Eliezer grade of sterile, though.
08:14 < phm_> haha
08:15 < phm_> I would say GEB is anything but sterile. Do you understand Godels work?
08:15 < eleitl> http://prometheussociety.org/cms/articles <-- they have a few new articles
08:16 < eleitl> I understand the proof, yes
08:16 < phm_> Does it convince you?
08:16 < eleitl> Sure, why not?
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08:16 < phm_> Just asking. I don't understand it.
08:17 < eleitl> My math is pretty poor. I barely made it through QC III.
08:18 < phm_> I feel like I've only just scratched the surface of what there is to know.
08:18 < eleitl> Mathematics is effectively infinite, so if you like that kind of thing, you can get lost in there.
08:18 < phm_> Which is depressing.
08:18 < phm_> Do you have a proof that mathematics is infinite?
08:19 < eleitl> Mining the math face, how is it called.
08:19 < ThomasEgi> some infinites are bigger than othters ;)
08:19 < eleitl> That's right in the GEB, production systems.
08:19 < eleitl> You can crank them out any color your like.
08:20 < phm_> my guess is that it's not infinite. But that's just a feeling. I'm not qualified.
08:20 < eleitl> It depends on what you mean by mathematics.
08:20 < phm_> logic
08:20 < eleitl> If it's about formal systems, just permutation of a few bits will take more atoms than in the visible universe to encode.
08:20 < phm_> one day we will run out of logic. It will all be done.
08:21 < eleitl> Universe is to run out in about 16.7 gigayears, so it's not like we've got a lot of time.
08:21 < eleitl> 95% of all stars that ever will exist are here already
08:21 < eleitl> we're late to this here party
08:21 < phm_> time is an illusion :-)
08:22 < ThomasEgi> hitch hikers guide..
08:22 < eleitl> not according to cosmology
08:23 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:24 < eleitl> My guess is that talking to a god is like listening to /dev/random
08:24 < phm_> How would you guess the gap between the intelligence of a monkey and an average human compares to the gap between the average human and you?
08:24 < eleitl> None of it will make the slightest sense whatsover. Unless it's designed to be understood.
08:25 < eleitl> I am an average human.
08:25 < eleitl> In fact, slighly subaverage in places.
08:25 < phm_> you wouldn't say you were of above average intelligence?
08:26 < eleitl> Nope. I had to work with what I had, which wasn't a lot.
08:26 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:26 < eleitl> Most people don't use the issued equipment for some reason.
08:26 < phm_> Have you seen the average man on the street? They can barley speak english. Are you saying the have the potential just poor education?
08:27 < phm_> they*
08:27 < eleitl> Sure. If the enviroment is right, and you drive you hard enough, the sky's the limit.
08:27 < eleitl> My kid is way smarter than I was as his age, but he won't read.
08:27 < ThomasEgi> eleitl, about that talking to god /listening to udevrandom... ever tried to search for the string "penis" in the udevrand output?... you'd be surprised^
08:28 < phm_> Why won't he read? Isn't he curious?
08:28 < eleitl> He's just too distracted with too much stuff. We did not nearly have such an enrichening environment back then, but at least we learned to focus.
08:28 < eleitl> The penis is way mightier than the sword.
08:29 < eleitl> He knew the letters and numbers with two. He doens't care to read, because he doesn't have to.
08:29 < eleitl> There are audio books, and games, and stuff.
08:29 -!- radivis [~quassel@pD9F8B8F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:29 < eleitl> Computers, Internet, interaction with people.
08:29 < radivis> hi people and especially eleitl
08:30 < phm_> Do you think this compromises his education?
08:30 < eleitl> Hail!
08:30 < eleitl> He won't educate himself, and we're not pushing him. He's supposed to have fun, the school will start soon enough.
08:30 < eleitl> It's too easy to burn out kids on learning, if you cram them.
08:30 < phm_> Yeah, but maybe some pushing is good.
08:31 < eleitl> A little, yes, but he mustn't notice. That is hard.
08:31 < eleitl> Tricking them into learning is best.
08:31 < phm_> I guess the trick is to make learning fun
08:31 < eleitl> Yes.
08:31 < eleitl> We talk English in front of him, when he's not supposed to understand that.
08:32 < eleitl> That's a motivator for him to pick it up :)
08:32 < phm_> Where are you from? Germany?
08:32 < eleitl> Originally Russia, now Germany. I've lived in SoCal a couple years.
08:32 < eleitl> Glad I left, San Bernhardino is shithole central.
08:33 < eleitl> Whole area hit by the neutron bomb, in fact.
08:34 < phm_> What games does he like? Does he enjoy playing chess or go?
08:34 < radivis> Why are there so many people in this channel? How did it become so popular?
08:34 < eleitl> All kind of games, nothing too serious. He's tried chess on his Android, but I don't think he understands the moves.
08:35 < phm_> I think about education a lot cos my nephew is 1.25 years old.
08:35 < eleitl> it's good, for a change.
08:35 < eleitl> it's interesting to see what stuff kinds can generate
08:35 < eleitl> you see the little wheels in motion
08:36 < eleitl> they're great at Markov chains, too
08:36 < eleitl> as an adult, it's hard to do that
08:36 < eleitl> to them, it's effortless
08:36 < phm_> I will try to teach him Arimaa. I think it's more fun than chess or go.
08:37 < eleitl> I try to interest him for science/physical layer things
08:37 < eleitl> I think we'll make some thermite this spring
08:37 < eleitl> kids love thermite
08:37 < phm_> hehe
08:38 < phm_> I saw the royal institution xmas lectures on chemistry, but it was too much bang bang and not enough theory, I thought.
08:39 < eleitl> it was hard to explain to him how water comes from wood
08:39 < eleitl> it was easier with colored legos
08:39 < phm_> How old?
08:39 < eleitl> I think right now alchemy is as real to him as chemisry
08:39 < eleitl> 6 and a few months.
08:40 < eleitl> There's an alchemy game for Android, which is teaching the kids all the wrong things.
08:41 < eleitl> actually I'm a bit scared about who's supposed to do all the R&D
08:41 < phm_> dunno. I wonder if it's bad to let kids near computers or tv until they're much older.
08:41 < eleitl> everybody is too busy with having fun
08:41 < eleitl> his TV is extremely rationed. so is computer.
08:42 < eleitl> luckily, he doesn't game a lot
08:42 < eleitl> have you noticed how just simple spelling skills have gone completely to shit over just a couple decades?
08:42 < phm_> no.
08:42 < eleitl> it's even worse with science
08:42 < phm_> Have they?
08:43 < eleitl> I don't get it how they manage to try so cram so much, and so little sticks.
08:43 < eleitl> When was peak education? Mid-1970s?
08:43 < phm_> A lot of education is bad.
08:44 < phm_> Why is that a peak?
08:44 < eleitl> I can't quite tell, and it differs by the region. Some are still climbing.
08:44 < eleitl> At least for the US, 1974 was a curious year.
08:44 < eleitl> Many things peak, why not education.
08:44 < phm_> I'm 100% self taught. Not sure how that's working out for me.
08:44 < eleitl> University was a complete waste of time.
08:45 < phm_> or self taught after the age of 17
08:45 < eleitl> Should have staid home instead.
08:45 < eleitl> I think properly self-motivated people should self-educate.
08:45 < eleitl> As long as you have access to literature, and can do experiments.
08:46 < phm_> yeah
08:46 < eleitl> I wonder what libgen & Co will do to people. The amount of materials is amazing, but what will people do with them?
08:47 < phm_> suck it up
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08:50 < phm_> We need better software
08:50 < phm_> I wonder if http://hypothes.is/ will be good
08:56 < phm_> but I'm not sure how far I want to take the mind-machine interface
08:57 < phm_> I used to like the idea of global consciousness. Sharing everything. No individuality. Gaia. But now I'm afraid.
08:58 < eudoxia> jesus christ how horrifying
08:59 < phm_> What?
08:59 < eudoxia> just... in general
08:59 < phm_> losing your ego?
08:59 < eudoxia> i like being me ;_;
09:00 < phm_> but you'll like being gaia even more.
09:00 < eudoxia> it's not an ideal or anything but it's just fine
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09:00 < ThomasEgi> phm_, ... sharing everything.. that's sorta.. gross.. i really don't want certain stuff to be shared with me..
09:00 < phm_> I do. I hate secrets.
09:01 < phm_> but it is scary
09:01 < ThomasEgi> i mean.. look at all the stuff on the internet..
09:01 < eudoxia> i'm with thomas egi on this one
09:01 < ThomasEgi> you really want everything you find there to be shared with you?
09:02 < phm_> yes, I don't have to think about it all consciously
09:02 < ThomasEgi> my bet would be you'd end up suiciding after a single day of shared experiences
09:02 < eudoxia> lies and speculation
09:02 < phm_> heh
09:03 < ThomasEgi> i mean.. just browse /b/  and think over it again.
09:03 < phm_> I never do
09:03 < ThomasEgi> maybe you should, for a change. and think about that shared stuff again.
09:03 < phm_> I wont go near 4chan. I am very sensitive
09:03 < ThomasEgi> in this case.. you'd probably suicide in a matter of minutes rather than a day
09:04 < ThomasEgi> oh wait.. i misread your initial statement about it.
09:04 < phm_> I know all the bad things that humanity is capable of. I don't see why it would make me want to kill myself.
09:04 < ThomasEgi> i thought you liked the idea.
09:04 < phm_> I do
09:05 < eudoxia> phm_ you and AlonzoTG would really fit together
09:05 < phm_> in what way?
09:05 < eudoxia> he hates uploading and believes hive minds are more realistic and better
09:05 < phm_> ahh
09:05 < phm_> I don't normally spend a lot of time thinking about it.
09:05 < phm_> too distant
09:06 < ThomasEgi> i'd say share the information worth it. and don't share the rest.
09:06 < phm_> but I didn't sleep much today and I'm kind of trippy
09:06 < ThomasEgi> everything else will end up like most dropboxes do.. full with gazillion of double-files and usless information
09:07 < phm_> but we will have better software to sort it and rate it
09:08 < phm_> so it doesn't matter if everything is shared
09:09 < ThomasEgi> sort and rate according to what?.. everyone may be looking for something different.
09:10 < radivis> You just need good personalized filtering software. Then group minds can be fun and useful and not disturbing and distracting
09:11 < phm_> right
09:11 < radivis> Make the filtering parameters also dependent on your mood.
09:11 < eudoxia> you guys make uploading seem simple
09:11 < radivis> At some times you want not to be distracted by anything, while at others you may be interested in almost anything
09:12 < radivis> Group minds don't require uploading.  Only neural interfaces.
09:12 < phm_> it doesn't imply uploading. Just a better mind-machine interface
09:13 < radivis> I think one of the greatest challenges will be translating more abstract thoughts into a format that can be interpreted correctly by other minds.
09:14 < radivis> People would also have to learn to think more clearly when they want to share those ideas with others
09:14 < phm_> lojban not good enough? :)
09:15 < radivis> Who speaks or thinks in Lojban?
09:15 < phm_> very few, at the moment
09:15 < ThomasEgi> i tried learning it. but noone joined me. and talking to yourself doesn't really make it worth learning
09:15 < phm_> I'd like to learn it, but it's not a priority
09:16 < radivis> Yeah, there are lots of other things that should have a higher priority than learning on obscure language
09:16 < phm_> isn't there an irc chan to practice in?
09:17 < radivis> But that probably also means that people also wouldn't bother to learn how to think more clearly in order to share abstract thoughts easily
09:17 < ThomasEgi> if it's just about thinking patterns. unless you think in words you'r not really bound to any language
09:17 < radivis> So what will be shared in group minds will probably just be sensory data and emotions.
09:18  * ThomasEgi doesnt want to be shared an emotion with some unstable 13 year old just-broken-up-teenager
09:18 < radivis> In what data format do you save "thinking patterns"?
09:18 < ThomasEgi> depends on how you think
09:19 < radivis> So you need a new data format for every person or even every single thought? That will lead us nowhere!
09:19 < ThomasEgi> yeah
09:19 < phm_> I think there are good ideas about this in GEB, but I can't recall them
09:20 < ThomasEgi> some people think in very numerical ways. other are more the musician types. some think in a lot of colors, personlly most of my thinking happens in volumetric objects as it fits my needs well
09:20 < radivis> I think people would generally restrict sharing emotions with their closest peers.
09:21 < ThomasEgi> and you'd definetly want an emotion-firewall.
09:21 < radivis> But it would be cool if people broadcasted their emotions to people in their proximity. On the other hand they already do that via mimics, gestures and so on
09:21 -!- Magic-Smoke [~Magic-Smo@c-98-198-91-31.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:23 < radivis> Perhaps we won't have large group minds, but more like peer to peer networks with very small groups of people sharing mind contents directly
09:24 < phm_> How do people find their way to this channel? Is it advertised anywhere? I came because eleitl suggested it on ZS maillist
09:24 < radivis> Yeah, I came from that direction, too, phm_
09:25 < eudoxia> i found it years ago when looking for hplus irc channels
09:26 < eudoxia> accidentally ran into a link on the acceleratingfuture h+ wiki (the one that's down now)
09:34 -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@gateway/tor-sasl/barriers] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
09:36 < ParahSai1in> paperbot: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2008/jm/b809212e
09:36 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Bionanocomposites%20based%20on%20poly%28-caprolactone%29-grafted%20cellulose%20nanocrystals%20by%20ring-opening%20polymerization.pdf
09:37 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@ip-64-134-65-251.public.wayport.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:37 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@ip-64-134-65-251.public.wayport.net] has quit [Client Quit]
09:38 < ParahSai1in> paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bm701111z
09:39 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Biosynthesis%20of%20an%20Amphiphilic%20Silk-Like%20Polymer.pdf
09:40 < ParahSai1in> paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bm800012x
09:41 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Deformation%20Responses%20of%20a%20Physically%20Cross-Linked%20High%20Molecular%20Weight%20Elastin-Like%20Protein%20Polymer.pdf
09:43 < ParahSai1in> paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bm8001717
09:43 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Highly%20Filled%20Bionanocomposites%20from%20Functionalized%20Polysaccharide%20Nanocrystals.pdf
09:44 < phm_> Wonder how many people here experiment on themselves with nootropics. I've been considering Modafinil.
09:44 < eleitl> good for long drives
09:44 < eleitl> little else
09:45 < ParahSai1in> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002197970701199X
09:45 < paperbot> KeyError: u'\u2013' (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/urllib.py", line 1268, in quote)
09:45 < eleitl> amphetamines are about the only ones to get you stuff done, but you pay for it
09:46 < phm_> How?
09:47 < eleitl> most tweakers are not Paul Erdos
09:47 < eleitl> he could pace it. they can't.
09:48 < phm_> I wish I knew why my motivation levels vary
09:48  * eleitl probably has ADHD
09:49 < phm_> I've been told that. but I didn't really believe them
09:50 < strangewarp> I tried 250mg cognizin + 30mg noopept + 500mg alpha-GPC. Now I'm trying 500mg cognizin + 650mg choline citrate. Weirdly the latter combo works better for me. Might add noopept and piracetam back into the mix once I'm making independent-person money as well.
09:51 < strangewarp> Modafinil is a stimulant, and I'm always suspicious of stimulants. I have an addictive personality so I try to stay away from them. Except caffeine, where I've already lost that battle.
09:51 < eleitl> Rhodiola rosea and Eleutherococcus senticosus seems to work for me, along with the usual stuff.
09:51 < eleitl> Modafinil doesn't stimulate me. It's a subtle effect.
09:53 < strangewarp> hmm..
09:54 < eleitl> I had to take one 100 mg yesterday, due to mostly sleepless night
09:54 < eleitl> Doesn't even help that much
09:55 < phm_> Do you have a routine? Or just sleep when you feel like it?
09:55 < eleitl> I sleep regularly and well, except when I don't.
09:55 < eleitl> Too much alcohol, and you wake up at 3 a.m.
09:55 < phm_> in 24 hour cycle?
09:56 < eleitl> 40 hour week, completely regular sleep schedule. and far too regular beer schedule.
09:56 < eleitl> When you're clocking 4 beers daily, it's not exactly good.
09:56 < phm_> So stop doing it
09:57 < eleitl> sometimes I do. No white mice, so far.
09:57 < eleitl> Liver hasn't pulled an uncle gaby on me, either.
09:57 < phm_> Do you drink alone? I thought you said you didn't like other people.
09:58 < eleitl> Alone. At home. In the rain.
09:58 < eleitl> :)
09:58 < phm_> Which brand of beer?
09:59 -!- archbox_ [~archbox@unaffiliated/archbox] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:59 < eleitl> Jever seems to be the best pilsener there is.
10:00 < eleitl> I should probably drink myself through the whole of Czech republic, though, to make sure.
10:00 < phm_> (:
10:00 < eudoxia> lol
10:00 < eleitl> For science!
10:01 < phm_> Have you tried brewing your own?
10:01 < ParahSai1in> paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1021%2Fbm061215p
10:01 < eleitl> Pilsener is very unforgiving.
10:01 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Enzymatic%20Hydrolysis%20Combined%20with%20Mechanical%20Shearing%20and%20High-Pressure%20Homogenization%20for%20Nanoscale%20Cellulose%20Fibrils%20and%20Strong%20Gels.txt
10:01 < eleitl> You'll need a fridge, and good sterile technique.
10:01 < ParahSai1in> paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bm061215p
10:01 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Enzymatic%20Hydrolysis%20Combined%20with%20Mechanical%20Shearing%20and%20High-Pressure%20Homogenization%20for%20Nanoscale%20Cellulose%20Fibrils%20and%20Strong%20Gels.pdf
10:02 < eleitl> probably getting decent hops is also difficult, though I could just drive to Holledau, and pick it fresh
10:03 < eleitl> I think the pellet ones are no good
10:03 < phm_> micro brewery could be a good startup idea.
10:03 < eleitl> anyone brews beer with reverse osmosis water?
10:03 < eleitl> we have it on tap, in the lab.
10:04  * eleitl lives in the land of good beer
10:04 < eleitl> Though the accursed Belgians are buying up local brew icons, and ruining them.
10:05 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-6-200.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving]
10:13 < eleitl> I wish I would live in .uy
10:14 < phm_> what does 'friends don't let friends do super college' mean?
10:14 < eleitl> jinx: http://imgur.com/gallery/Rm1We8B
10:14 < radivis> Gah, I accumulated too much sleep debt. I'd like to avoid that in the future. Does anyone know how to fall asleep fast and reliably?
10:15 < eleitl> just let the head hit the pillow
10:15 < eleitl> boom, out
10:15 < phm_> hot toddy?
10:15 < eleitl> I think the best I've done was seconds
10:15 < eleitl> whoops, time to crawl home
10:15 < eleitl> good night
10:17 < radivis> Direct pillow head collisions often don't have a sufficient impact for me
10:17 < phm_> Why does it have to be fast?
10:17 < radivis> Because time in bed not sleeping when wanting to is time wasted
10:18 < radivis> And it just adds to my sleep deficit account
10:18 < radivis> I use an Android app that makes soothing noises. It's relatively effective, but I thought there must be better stuff
10:19 < phm_> I like falling asleep slowly
10:19 < radivis> I like falling alseep hallucinating from tiredness.
10:19 < radivis> But usually doing that is a bad sign
10:19 < phm_> What's your record uptime?
10:20 < radivis> 40 hours or so. On a LAN party playing too much Diablo. I heard the screams of the monsters all the time at the end in my head.
10:20 < phm_> heh
10:21 < radivis> Fun experience. But I prefer having slept sufficient amounts of time.
10:22 < radivis> I have been tracking my performance and the time I sleep. It turned out that they were not correlated at all.
10:22 < phm_> performance at what?
10:22 < radivis> The conclusion I have drawn is to get as much sleep as I can
10:23 < phm_> Have you tried polyphasic patterns?
10:23 < radivis> Doing productive stuff generally. I track how much time I spend and whether I reach pre-defined goals
10:23 < radivis> I'm using an achievement point system for that
10:24 < radivis> Polyphasic is not good for me.
10:24 < radivis> I guess. Even biphasic messes me up
10:25 < phm_> How long did you do it for? I guess it takes a while to be comfortable with it
10:26 < radivis> I actually never did that on purpose. It always happened accidentially after I've taken a prolonged nap in the afternoon
10:26 < phm_> heh. Same for me.
10:26 < radivis> Such naps quickly become a regular habit that's hard to break
10:28 < phm_> I want to try sleeping only 15 mins at a time and stuff, but it's probably unhealthy
10:29 < radivis> I don't know. Stephe Pavlina did quite well on a polyphasic schedule. But only for half a year or so
10:30 < radivis> I guess he was just annoyed that half the day the rest of the world is in hibernation, so he's alone.
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10:37 < nsh> you get used to it
10:37 < archels> did he try it before the internet?
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10:43 < radivis> the internet is a lie... what where am I writing this?
10:44 < eudoxia> eleitl: when/if the bombs start falling you can come stay with us
10:44 < eudoxia> bring as many dewars as you like
10:44 < nsh> when did the bombs stop falling?
10:44 < radivis> Bomb? Whose bombs?
10:45  * nsh must have missed the memo
10:45 < eudoxia> resource wars/mike darwin drama/The Happening
10:47 < phm_> bed time. bye
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11:22 <@kanzure> eleitl: yes please don't bring zero state people in here. those guys are terrible.
11:23 < chris_99> zero state?
11:25 <@kanzure> eleitl: i recommend ikiwiki. diyhpl.us hosts ikiwiki instances and we'd be happy to host yours if you'd like. it's based on git. http://diyhpl.us/wiki has instructions at the bottom that would be similar for another ikiwiki instance.
11:25 <@kanzure> juri_: i'm pretty sure trac is universally hated
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11:30 <@kanzure> eleitl: the issue with martin is that he has some suspicious requirements for anyone to work with him
11:30 <@kanzure> eleitl: irssi logging, http://www.chovy.com/linux/logging-irssi-and-rotating-them-with-logrotate/
11:32 <@kanzure> 06:18 < eleitl> Look! I've cut myself! I'm a transhuman, because a have a rare earth magnet in my fingertip!
11:32 <@kanzure> 06:19 < eleitl> Bow before me!
11:35 <@kanzure> eleitl: zindell writes an awful lot like gene wolfe, but uses some fantasy elements in some conspicuous places. http://heybryan.org/docs/Zindell, David - Neverness (v1.0).txt
11:35 <@kanzure> phm_: could you do me a favor and leave your wacky theories about the human brain/emotions/logic out of here?
11:41 <@kanzure> phm_: also you should realize that eliezer's explicit mission is anti-transhumanist in nature.. not many people understand this, even thuogh he keeps shouting it at the top of his lungs.
11:46 <@kanzure> radivis: this channel has people because it's the longest-living transhumanism channel. and we do things.
11:47 <@kanzure> eleitl: libgen will do nothing for people; you should note that there's still only 1 seeder for it. nobody is bothering to seed it.
11:47 <@kanzure> phm_: global consciousness is even more ridiculous than regular consciousness, which people can't even define. it's like believing in magic or a soul.
11:49 < radivis> kanzure: Why do you answer to phm_ even though he's not in the channel anymore?
11:50 < radivis> And what things do you do in this channel?
11:50 <@kanzure> eleitl: what do you mean paul erdos could "pace" it? what does pacing mean in this context?
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11:50 < radivis> And most importantly: Why are Zero State people terrible. You mean that ironically, right? ;)
11:51 <@kanzure> phm_: "friends don't let friends do super college" means friends don't let you go to grad school or worse.
11:51 <@kanzure> it
11:52 < ParahSai1in> erdos started taking amphetamines in his 60s it looks like
11:52 <@kanzure> it's a terrible thing to put someone through. the pay is lousy and the relationships are bad.
11:52 < ParahSai1in> i could understand needing a little help at that age to burn the candle at both ends
11:53 < eudoxia> isn't Zero State some kind of cult
11:53 <@kanzure> radivis: i was answering phm_ because i like to pretend that people read logs
11:53 < eudoxia> a guy called Amon and his "lets change de world" religion, seemingly populated by people who haven't heard of all the failed late nineties h+ religions
11:53 <@kanzure> radivis: no, i don't mean it ironically about zero state people.
11:54 < eudoxia> wiki.transhumani.com/index.php?title=Transhumanist_Communities is a rather comprehensive list
11:54 <@kanzure> ParahSai1in: yeah i know about paul's use of amphetamines, i just don't know what he means by "pacing".
11:54 < ParahSai1in> zero state = anarchists, radical functional programming, or other?
11:54 <@kanzure> eudoxia: tracking failed communities sounds really boring
11:54 <@kanzure> ParahSai1in: they aren't anarchists.
11:54 < eudoxia> kanzure: someone has to record the failures so people won't repeat them
11:54 < eudoxia> (i like to pretend anyone reads that wiki)
11:54 <@kanzure> ParahSai1in: it's just another zeitgeist bullshit fest
11:54 < eudoxia> ^
11:54 < ParahSai1in> so "other"
11:55 <@kanzure> yes
11:55 < eudoxia> zero state doesn't refer to no state, but to some other thing, like a "final state"
11:55 < eudoxia> or whatever it's not like i can keep up with everyone's Internet religions
11:55 <@kanzure> radivis: you can find some information about projects here, http://diyhpl.us/cgit
11:55 <@kanzure> radivis: http://groups.google.com/group/diybio
11:55 <@kanzure> radivis: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq
11:56 <@kanzure> radivis: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/proposals
11:56 <@kanzure> and if you're into fancy pictures, uh, https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer#readme
11:58 < ParahSai1in> paperbot is the greatest achievement
11:58 <@kanzure> paperbot is a god among mere mortals
11:58 <@kanzure> i heard that paperbot has read a million papers.
11:59 < radivis> And how many papers has paperbot written?
11:59 < ParahSai1in> paperbot cast carmen ortiz into the outer darkness
11:59 <@kanzure> paperbot is the reincarnation of aaronsw
11:59 <@kanzure> .... sort of.
12:00 < ParahSai1in> alcor dropped his frozen head, but from one crystalline fragment was recovered paperbot
12:03 <@kanzure> i wish organometallica would record a music video inside alcor hq
12:03 < radivis> I'll go ahead and copy your comments on Zero State on the Zero State mailing list. It seem that we need a better PR strategy, since there seem to be some really weird misconceptions about us.
12:03 <@kanzure> radivis: no! no more pr. shit dude. you're completely misunderstanding us.
12:03 < ParahSai1in> so PR me what it's actually about
12:04 <@kanzure> radivis: amon already replied to my comments on zero state. he shat all over me.
12:04 <@kanzure> he started claiming wild things like "oh obviously kanzure you must hate everyone" WHAT? no
12:04 <@kanzure> fuck 'em
12:05 < radivis> What comments have you made about Zero State initially?
12:05 < radivis> When did that happen?
12:05 <@kanzure> it was on your mailing list dude, learn to read?
12:05 <@kanzure> within the last 6 months.
12:05 < radivis> did you write as kanzure?
12:06 <@kanzure> yes the emails originate from my email address
12:06 < eudoxia> oh man i finally got the functional programming joke
12:06 < eudoxia> it's because purely functional programming languages are STATELESS
12:06 < eudoxia> hahahaha oh god i'm slow
12:06 <@kanzure> eudoxia: 3 hours of shame.
12:08 <@kanzure> radivis: it's possible that amon filtered them out.
12:09 < radivis> No, I just didn't see the name kanzure in the mailing list
12:09 < radivis> But now I figured out who you are
12:10 < ParahSai1in> not hard to do
12:10 <@kanzure> http://postbiota.org/pipermail/tt/2012-December/012578.html
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12:11 <@kanzure> http://postbiota.org/pipermail/tt/2012-December/012580.html
12:11 < radivis> So you think transhumanism is all about technology and Zero State is not "technologically" focussed at all, right?
12:11 <@kanzure> radivis: i was replying to amon's essay thing
12:11 < radivis> That's all this nonsense disagreement is about?
12:11 <@kanzure> radivis: it's not nonsense. his email was fucking awful.
12:13 <@kanzure> you should read the things i linked, i suppose
12:13 < radivis> I've read then but I can't see your point
12:13 < eudoxia> i think transhumanism requires work, not blogging about the singularity and circlejerking about how we're the avant-garde of the human race while whacking it to GITS
12:13 <@kanzure> eudoxia: hey man if you've whacked it to GITS, don't tell us about it
12:14 < radivis> What's your problem exactly, kanzure?
12:14 <@kanzure> radivis: are you trying to make me like zero state?
12:14 <@kanzure> or what is the nature of your question
12:14 < radivis> No, I'm just trying to understand why you hate it
12:15 < radivis> What's the point of this hate?
12:15 <@kanzure> the hatred helps protect this channel from terrible things
12:15 < radivis> Like what?
12:16 <@kanzure> like zero state. it's yet another philosopher wasting my time with (first of all, terrible philosophies but also) rhetoric and zero contributions
12:16 <@kanzure> oh look! he can configure wordpress. big deal.
12:16 <@kanzure> and apparently he thinks i hate everyone. this guy is just totally careless.
12:16 < radivis> He has created a big community. That's not exactly zero contribution.
12:16 <@kanzure> your community sucks though?
12:17 < eudoxia> and this community, what have they done?
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12:17 <@kanzure> community wasn't the problem in the first place anyway
12:17 < eudoxia> are they collaborating on a design for a rod logic computer? solving the protein folding problem? helping eleitl with his cryo org?
12:17 <@kanzure> their concept of help is "let's write lots of articles about why we need community"
12:18 < eudoxia> kirka's porting of nanoengineer to win7 has contributed more to transhumanism than all of Zero State
12:18 <@kanzure> i believe that any effective technology group will need to begin with technology from the very start
12:18 < eudoxia> it is about as useful as the Extreme Futurist Festival
12:18 < radivis> We are trying to figure out how to organize a community to become productive and how to grow further.
12:18 <@kanzure> why do you want to grow wtf
12:18 < joehot> is transhumanism a concept of hubris or does it take transism of everything else for granted
12:19 < eudoxia> look at this channel! focus on the doing, and they will come
12:19 <@kanzure> joehot: transhumanism specifically refers to the concept of leveraging technologies to make more modifications to the ability to make modifications on a human
12:19 < joehot> yes
12:19 < joehot> but why just humans
12:19 < radivis> Well, ZS focused on values, at the beginning, but also on getting things done
12:19 <@kanzure> joehot: so you are saying whole brain emulation (for instance) is hubris ? or what..
12:19 < joehot> no
12:20 <@kanzure> joehot: well, you can focus on mice if you like...? that's known as 'uplifting'.
12:20 < joehot> no i mean
12:20 < radivis> Looks like only focusing on getting things done creates communities with terrible manners
12:20 < joehot> well other life is one thing
12:20 < eudoxia> this channel didn't get to 70 people by focusing on "community building"
12:20 < joehot> im asking if humans are the only objects that will require a fight
12:20 <@kanzure> radivis: our manners are not terrible. you might just be overly sensitive.
12:20 <@kanzure> joehot: a fight?? what?
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12:21 < joehot> and transworld?ism is going to happen naturally
12:21 < radivis> Ok, it could be worse, but critisizing other communities for nothing is not very constructive
12:21 <@kanzure> radivis: well, it's also not my job to make sure zero state becomes something valuable. i just don't have the time to babysit everyone.
12:21 <@kanzure> radivis: however, it does pose a particular problem because it's wasting a lot of my friend's time. and they could be doing other things instead. and they're not. :(
12:22 <@kanzure> friends' time
12:22 < radivis> So it's about protecting your friends from "wasting time"?
12:22 <@kanzure> no
12:22 < radivis> No?
12:22 <@kanzure> you asked, i answered?
12:23 < radivis> I still don't understand what this is all about
12:23 <@kanzure> this channel?
12:23 < radivis> No, your hate of Zero State
12:23 < eudoxia> so i see projects about organization, media, philosophy, all that, but where are the actual projects?
12:23 < eudoxia> as in, a project to upload the C. Elegans?
12:23 < radivis> We just do our thing. And it's perhaps happening too slowly. So what?
12:24 < eudoxia> that's the exact same thing the Extropians said 30 years ago
12:24 <@kanzure> it's fully possible to have a project in media, philosophy, public relations, but i don't see that as being technology really.
12:24 < eudoxia> all talk, all promises, and none of them bothered to pick up a textbook. so they achieved nothing.
12:24 <@kanzure> eudoxia: well they got into wired magazine. once.
12:24 <@kanzure> that's... ok yeah.
12:24 < radivis> Ok, I see what you mean
12:25 <@kanzure> radivis: did eugen ask you to come here?
12:25 < radivis> I also recognized some of those issue, and that's why I suggested a change of the Zero State organization to make it more dynamic, flexible, and productive.
12:26 <@kanzure> radivis: changing an organization's policy will not change its contributors
12:26 < radivis> Well. he advertised this channel on the Zero State mailing list.
12:26 <@kanzure> i thought it would, and that's why i became director of R&D of humanityplus. huge, huge mistake.
12:27 < radivis> I think our contributors are fine, but we were too badly organized to get a lot done.
12:27 < eudoxia> kanzure tell him the story
12:27 < eudoxia> it will make him a full convert
12:27 <@kanzure> i suspect that zero state attracts people that are interested in talking about how to organize people more productively, but who themselves are not interested in becoming skilled in molecular biology, cryonics, electronics, welding, etc., and as a result your organization will always be self-limiting because of your current users.
12:28 <@kanzure> eudoxia: you tell it. i'm gonna go find lunch.
12:28 <@kanzure> eudoxia: btw feel free to add in a dragon or two into the story. you can slay one if you like.
12:28 < radivis> So what if we are not interested in these fields. There are enough of other important things to do.
12:29 < ParahSai1in> apparently one of the guys heres on the wetlab side tried to recycle a GAIIx (Illumina) flow cell
12:29 < eudoxia> allright, so a long time ago humanity+/WTA made kanzure its director of research. back then he though he could get them back on the right track, doing things. he even started the Gada Prize, to develop a fully self-replicating 3D printer.
12:29 <@kanzure> ParahSai1in: can i has?
12:29 < ParahSai1in> didn't work and he dropped that project
12:30 < ParahSai1in> presumably higher priorities somewhere else
12:30 < radivis> What didn't work exactly?
12:30 < eudoxia> but the h+/WTA people did nothing, and basically just kept the Gada prize site up. supposedly the prize was going to be handed out at the end of 2012, but naturally nobody knows there was even a prize.
12:30 < eudoxia> they also had him move from drupal to wordpress and there was something bad about that but i don't remember it all
12:30 < ParahSai1in> radivis: he doesnt work here anymore, and all i see is files from a failed run
12:31 < radivis> Looks like internal communication in h+/WTA didn't work
12:31 < eudoxia> so, radivius, exactly what do you think is more important than working on these technologies? getting public support?
12:31 < joehot> public support wont come until the technology happens
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12:31 < eudoxia> the future does not come by itself, technological determinism is a lie, you can't just wait for the 'glorious transhuman future' so you can say 'i predicted this all along!!'
12:32 < radivis> My personal view is that it's most important to spread the right values
12:32 < eudoxia> and these are?
12:32 < eudoxia> specifically
12:32 < radivis> It's complicated. That's why they need to be discussed.
12:32 < eudoxia> allright, let me speculate
12:32 < eudoxia> optimism re:the future
12:33 < eudoxia> the proactive use of technology
12:33 < eudoxia> boundless expansion
12:33 <@kanzure> eudoxia: you forgot the part about the humanityplus people not changing in the last 30 years at all.
12:33 < eudoxia> using technology to make people happy
12:33 < radivis> I am a utilitarian personally, but utilitarianism doesn't seem to be popular enough to be sucessful
12:33 < eudoxia> kanzure i mentioned that thing about them not reading a single textbook in 30 years
12:33 < eudoxia> radivius, that's what the extropians advocated
12:33 <@kanzure> no that was the extropians
12:33 < eudoxia> thirty years go
12:33 < radivis> Zero State is more about balance and not letting anyone be left behind
12:33 < eudoxia> they even got a magazine out
12:34 < eudoxia> and they still did nothing. they spread values around, but what did that achieve¿?
12:34 <@kanzure> "not letting anyone be left behind".. why is that my responsibility? screw that. those people can just use open source tech just like the rest of us.
12:34 < eudoxia> well around here we have this idea that open manufacturing, etc. can allow people not to be left behind
12:34 <@kanzure> at the risk of throwing gasoline onto the flames, http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration
12:35 < eudoxia> look into molecular manufacturing, open manufacturing, Open Source Ecology; all that
12:35 < radivis> They can maybe, if they have enough to eat, a computer, education and all that stuff you take for granted.
12:35 < eudoxia> and that is exactly what open manufacturing is about
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12:35 <@kanzure> who said i take that for granted? fuck you
12:35 < eudoxia> letting every village have a space program
12:35 < eudoxia> and, of course, drinking water, food, medicine
12:35 < radivis> Yeah, ok, open manufacturing is great. But is not very helpful if almost nobody knows about it.
12:35 <@kanzure> not true
12:36 <@kanzure> GNU is exceedingly helpful even though few people know about it
12:36 < eudoxia> ^
12:36 < eudoxia> personally I'm waiting for OSE to get to the point where people actually start building those machines en masse
12:36 < eudoxia> mostly in the third world
12:36 <@kanzure> w
12:36 <@kanzure> eudoxia: yeah i don't think that's going to happen with OSE. it's.. complicated.
12:37 < radivis> So you are just waiting?
12:37 <@kanzure> i would like it to happen, but their machine designs are like 400 wiki pages and not updated or something
12:37 < eudoxia> kanzure and fenn were also working on this thing called SKDB, like a package manager for ahrdware
12:37 <@kanzure> radivis: he misspoke.
12:37 < eudoxia> hardware*
12:37 < radivis> yeah, of course :P
12:37 < eudoxia> i think ybit works directly with OSE
12:38 < eudoxia> SKDB is stuck on CAD related issues, but i think that's solvable
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12:38 < eudoxia> also, we are trying to this program, NanoEngineer, a molecular modelling and simulation program for molecular nanotechnology updated
12:39 < eudoxia> so you can contribute to NanoEngineer, SKDB, OSE, open access for scientific journals, open source lab tech
12:39 < radivis> Look, I appreciate that you actually go forward an develop these technologies. But developing technologies alone is not everything.
12:39 < radivis> It won't solve all the problems of the world.
12:39 < eudoxia> it is when it is those technologies themselves that spread the values around
12:39 < eudoxia> have you considered that?
12:40 < radivis> I think that's a pretty extreme simplification.
12:40 < radivis> Values depend on much more than technology alone.
12:40 < joehot> ok. what are you doing to spread the values
12:41 < radivis> I'm working on sci-fi stories myself.
12:41 < joehot> waw.
12:41 < radivis> There's also blogging and discussing and stuff
12:42 < joehot> so do you have any past examples of scifi triggering an embrace of technological revolution
12:42 < eudoxia> i noticed
12:42 < joehot> most scifi is rejected at the time and only picked up decades later because it came true
12:42 < radivis> I'm not so much into the history of the effects of sci-fi on the embracing of technological revolutions
12:43 < joehot> im asking you how you think you are helping
12:43 < radivis> My own approach is more indirect
12:43 < eudoxia> oh radivis = radical vision
12:43 < eudoxia> that's kinda clever
12:43 < radivis> Yes, eudoxia
12:43 < eudoxia> i read it as radivius and thought it was some latin thing
12:44 < radivis> I try to influence the influencers who get things into movement
12:44 < radivis> ^^
12:45 < eudoxia> why not be one of the influencers?
12:45 < joehot> because he thinks he cant
12:45 < ParahSai1in> OSE needs more redneck, less hipster
12:45 < eudoxia> cut all those layers of abstraction and pick up Molecular Biology of the Cell
12:45 < radivis> As one who influences influencers I am an influencer, aren't I?
12:45 < joehot> do you have proof that you are influencing anyone, much less influencers
12:46 < eudoxia> yes, i was just going to ask that
12:46 < radivis> I have no proof. I actually haven't done very much yet actually
12:46 < radivis> I just believe that my own approach is the best thing I can do.
12:46 <@kanzure> ParahSai1in: i recently met some foreign rednecks and i was actually amazed at how much they got done on their own.
12:47 <@kanzure> ParahSai1in: they had an underground battle bridge with 18 foot lathes and submachine guns.
12:47 < radivis> I don't care very much about specific technologies, but more about people using them in the right ways. And about society functioning well, so that all have a life worth living.
12:48 <@kanzure> radivis: our goal is not to "solve all the problems of the world".. anyone telling you otherwise is a liar.
12:48 < radivis> ok
12:48 < ParahSai1in> kanzure: wait what?
12:48 <@kanzure> what are you whatting?
12:48 < joehot> i think the biggest obstacle to technological embrace is complacency. incidentally, technology helps to remove complacency
12:49 < ParahSai1in> what sort of foreign rednecks were these? insurgent arms factory?
12:49 <@kanzure> ParahSai1in: nope. just a welder/machinist couple.
12:49 < radivis> What about gaming technology? Doesn't that create more complacency?
12:50 < joehot> if the games were good, people would stop putting up with the trash they 'play' now
12:50 < ParahSai1in> battle bridge?
12:50 < joehot> actually thats a little overassuming
12:50 <@kanzure> ParahSai1in: that's what i call their machine shop
12:50 < joehot> only the nerds are into the interactive movies
12:50 < ParahSai1in> ah
12:50 <@kanzure> radivis: by any chance are you a pokemon master
12:51 < joehot> oh stop
12:51 < radivis> Nope, never played pokemon
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12:51 < joehot> to say games increase complacency misunderstands games
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12:52 < joehot> games are about people. they let you do things with people that you couldn't otherwise.
12:53 < radivis> What about single player games?
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12:54 < joehot> what's the difference?
12:54 < joehot> games dont just take place in the literal game
12:54 < ParahSai1in> speaking of foreign rednecks, i have a friend in china whose family farm has all kind of stranded (in the sense of no use, so rots in the field) crops, one of which is a fiber plant
12:54 < radivis> What do you mean with that, joehot?
12:54 < ParahSai1in> im trying to figure out how he can make nanocellulose out of that
12:55 < joehot> games dont end after you stop playing them
12:56 <@kanzure> ParahSai1in: is nanocellulose different from regular cellulose particulates?
12:56 < joehot> talking to someone about a game is part of the game
12:56 < ParahSai1in> kanzure: microfibrillated cellulose is supposed to be magic
12:57 < radivis> Surely for some, but not for all, joehot
12:57 < joehot> how so
12:57 < radivis> There are many different types of gamers
12:58 < radivis> And different reasons for gaming
12:58 < joehot> im not going to entertain that fallacy
12:58 < radivis> Anyway, I didn't want to get into a discussion about gaming
12:58 < joehot> i agree
12:58 < eudoxia> yes guise seriously
12:59 < eudoxia> this is a serious channel for serious projects
12:59 < radivis> There's this issue that eleitl invited Zero State members to come here, but they don't seem to be welcome.
12:59 < eudoxia> on that note, kanzure, do you think implicitcad can help you get pass the SKDB stagnation?
12:59 < radivis> This needs to be resolved somehow
13:00 <@kanzure> eudoxia: i think brlcad is the best bet.
13:00 <@kanzure> eudoxia: they have been throwing some students at replacing the missing opennurbs pieces.
13:00 < radivis> One possibility is not to talk about Zero State in this channel, but that would be kinda disappointing
13:00 < eudoxia> kanzure: so it's got proper nurbs now?
13:00 <@kanzure> no
13:00 < radivis> There would be no synergy between this channel and Zero State then.
13:00 <@kanzure> radivis: maybe you guys should stop lying about being transhumanist
13:00 < joehot> when i said complacency i was talking more about the idea that harmful things are good because we're 'enlightened' now and everything that was common sense 100 years ago is totally bogus because we're smarter than before
13:00 <@kanzure> radivis: it just causes problems i think
13:00 <@kanzure> and then you fool eugen leitl
13:00 < eudoxia> radivis: keep the philosophy in zero state and the h+ projects here
13:01 < radivis> What? Zero State has transhumanists, but it doesn't even officically to be a transhumanist organization. It's more implicit.
13:02 < radivis> And why would you need to be a transhumanist to get technical stuff done anyway? Isn't transhumanism irrelevant in the context of this channel anyway?
13:02 < eudoxia> yes, you are "the New"
13:02 <@kanzure> radivis: nope, you don't need to be transhumanist to do things of course.
13:02 < eudoxia> no, you certainly don't
13:03 < joehot> and if that's the case, why is zero state relevant?
13:03 < eudoxia> it is not
13:03 < joehot> if someone is saying that this channel is good to talk about zero state, take it up with him, not us
13:03 <@kanzure> well, eugen usually has a good bullshit filter
13:03 < radivis> Because Zero State is about making the world a better place for all. Just in a transhumanism-compatible and inspired way.
13:03 <@kanzure> i'm not sure what's going on in this case
13:04 <@kanzure> http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-BioPrinter/
13:04 < ParahSai1in> scientology is about making the world a better place forall
13:04 <@kanzure> i wonder why biocurious chose to publish on instructables.. what a bizarre choice.
13:05 < radivis> Zero State focuses more on the societal aspects rather than the technological ones. But actually it embraces the whole spectrum. At least if activities remain compatible to the ethical principles.
13:05 < eudoxia> kanzure: i wonder as well
13:06 <@kanzure> 'embraces'
13:06 < radivis> Scientology is a religion. Zero State wants to become a virtual nation.
13:08 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=9263b046 Bryan Bishop: add a link to the biocurious printer
13:08 < ParahSai1in> Seasteading Institute also is about making the world a better place ∀
13:08 <@kanzure> radivis: btw, in case it hasn't been obvious, you are very welcome to stay around in here
13:08 <@kanzure> eleitl: i see you sending emails, don't pretend to be away..
13:09 < radivis> So Zero State members are welcome here, but this chanell doesn't see a point in accociating with Zero State officially?
13:09 <@kanzure> yes
13:09 <@kanzure> reddit users are also allowed in here, but they usually end up kickbanned
13:09 < radivis> That's a stance I can live with
13:10 < radivis> How do you recognize reddit users? What's so bad about them?
13:10 < ParahSai1in> reddit is just a forum technology like google groups, irc, or bbs
13:10 <@kanzure> they are very easy to recognize
13:10 <@kanzure> just based on text and trolling
13:10 < eudoxia> le
13:10 < radivis> What's the difference to IRC then? ;)
13:11 <@kanzure> ParahSai1in: if only
13:14 < ParahSai1in> i use some forums on reddit
13:15 < radivis> Ok, so what if a project wants to be supported both by Zero State and this community? Would there be a problem with that?
13:15 <@kanzure> radivis: what does supported mean?
13:15 < radivis> Using the infrastructure of ZS.
13:15 <@kanzure> like if you want to commit to the git repos, go right ahead
13:15 < radivis> Web sites, eventually funds
13:16 < ParahSai1in> that last word always just sneaks up
13:16 < eudoxia> haha
13:16 <@kanzure> what websites in particular? i'm skeptical that zero state has any web developers worth their salt.
13:16 < radivis> Well, at the moment it really looks like we are lacking them
13:17 < joehot> what do you have?
13:17 < radivis> At the moment we mostly have a community
13:17 <@kanzure> radivis: web development isn't hard. you should learn it.
13:17 < radivis> A blog, a mailing list, and a wiki that will soon be restructured
13:18 < radivis> In a few years we might have some serious funds
13:18 < radivis> I am actually learning web development
13:18 < radivis> I'm trying to create a web based reputation system/economy
13:18 < eudoxia> kanzure: i'm trying to git clone skdb but it says the connection is refused
13:18 < eudoxia> ;_;
13:19 <@kanzure> eudoxia: yes the git server is broken, i did something terrible
13:20 <@kanzure> eudoxia: the version on github is current
13:20 < eudoxia> allright, i tried going there but it said it was last updated three years ago
13:20 < eudoxia> and i remember fenn pushing something to the one on diyhpl.us
13:20 <@kanzure> eudoxia: also if you have an ssh account on diyhpl.us you can just git clone eudoxia@diyhpl.us:/srv/git/skdb.git
13:20 <@kanzure> oh okay. one moment then.
13:20 < ParahSai1in> radivis: reputation system/economy?
13:21 < radivis> http://radivis.com/public/quantifiedprestige002.pdf
13:21 <@kanzure> eudoxia: ok github has been updated
13:21 < eudoxia> thanks
13:22 < radivis> I've developed this Quantified Prestige architecture that is based on users allocating esteem points to each other
13:22 < radivis> I'm struggling with implementing that in software, since I'm not an experienced programmer.
13:22 < ParahSai1in> how is it different from similar ideas?
13:23 < radivis> Are some Django developers here in this community by accident?
13:23 <@kanzure> yes i do django development
13:23 < radivis> It's more awesome and complicated, and it's actually sophisticated enough to be a basis for a real economy.
13:23 < ParahSai1in> kanzure: off-hand, what is your go-to platform?
13:23 < eudoxia> i know a little django
13:24 < radivis> Other systems weren't intended to serve as basis for a sensible reputation based economy
13:24 < ParahSai1in> radivis: heh, that doesnt answer anything about my question
13:24 <@kanzure> ParahSai1in: it depends on the project entirely.
13:25 < radivis> I might tell you more if you tell me what "similar ideas" you have in mind
13:25 <@kanzure> ParahSai1in: recently i have been using sqlalchemy/flask/python for a large project.
13:25 <@kanzure> ParahSai1in: most consulting work ends up being in ruby/rails.
13:25 < radivis> In the document I compared QP to reddit, Klout, and regular money allocation
13:25 < ParahSai1in> radivis: i would have guessed that you would have researched a lot of the similar ideas in making your own
13:26 < radivis> No, I actually didn't do that. I developed my system from scratch without bothering a lot about other ideas
13:26 < ParahSai1in> kanzure: ah
13:26 < ParahSai1in> radivis: yeah, thats kind of what i'm getting at
13:26 < radivis> It was more like finding a solution to a mathematical problem
13:27 < radivis> How a reputation economy must be designed so that it can actually work
13:27 < ParahSai1in> see, when people do that, they frequently just end up with some failed idea that someone else tried to come up with
13:27 < radivis> I haven't found anything that really looks like Quantified Prestige.
13:28 < joehot> isnt this just karma
13:28 < joehot> but more complicated
13:28 < ParahSai1in> i thought you didn't do a lot of research into other ideas?
13:28 < radivis> Nope, Karma is bound to writing stuff and getting that approved
13:28 < radivis> I did some research AFTER I developed my system
13:28 < ParahSai1in> an example of research that could be done just in one google search http://www.nycga.net/groups/alternative-currencies/
13:29 < radivis> Well, I did some research beforehand, but there wasn't anything that I found to be useful enough
13:29 < ParahSai1in> other people's failure is the best teacher
13:30 < radivis> Prestige can be allocated freely to other people. It's not based on specific actions they do technically
13:30 < radivis> Well, there was a reputation economy in Second Life that failed horribly.
13:30 < joehot> prestige is already a thing that we can size up ourselves. why do we need a web site to tell us who has the most prestige?
13:31 < radivis> That was kinda a motivation for what I have developed, even though I knew about that Second Life reputation economy only through a single article I read.
13:31 < radivis> Because prestige is too informal at the moment.
13:31 < joehot> how so
13:32 < ParahSai1in> "It was more like finding a solution to a mathematical problem" economics cannot be done a priori
13:32 < radivis> You need to know people to know about their prestige
13:32 < ParahSai1in> stop trying to do that
13:32 < radivis> Why?
13:33 < joehot> people exude their prestige
13:33 < radivis> That's like saying "stop developing this crazy 'money' idea! Economics cannot be done a priori!"
13:33 < joehot> what youre basically saying is that we should disregard people with low 'prestige rating'
13:33 < ParahSai1in> radivis: im focusing on your methodology
13:34 < radivis> I don't know how well my system will work. But I need to develop it to have a change to test it at all!
13:35 < radivis> Does the existence of money imply that you shoud disregard people without a lot of money?
13:35 < joehot> so what, you buy things with prestige points?
13:36 <@kanzure> joehot: read more cory doctorow
13:36 < radivis> Look: QP is more of a complementary economy. It's an additional chance to attain wealth.
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13:37 < radivis> No, you cannot buy anything with prestige points directly. Prestige points give you an income in another currency.
13:37 < ParahSai1in> ill be more generous and say that you should get better at selling this idea... i don't want to invest an unknown amount of time reading a pdf of unknown value on your word that it's "more awesome and complicated"
13:37 < radivis> That works through a distribution fund or through the creation of Fluido, the Prestige-associated currency that I devised.
13:38 < ParahSai1in> maybe be able to state the value in one or two sentences, or failing that, an elevator speech
13:38 < joehot> kanzure: i dont get it
13:38 <@kanzure> joehot: if you want a better background on alternative currencies and reputation economies, read more cory doctorow.
13:38 < joehot> ok
13:39 < radivis> Quantified Prestige mainly enables effective gratification of the creation of digital or immaterial goods, or also services.
13:39 < radivis> If it gets widely adopted it can also effectively motivate companies to behave more ethically
13:40 < radivis> In general it can be uses as rewarding system for positive behavior.
13:40 < ParahSai1in> re sentence 1, how?
13:40 < radivis> Creators of digital goods get prestige for doing so. That Prestige creates an income in a virtual currency for them.
13:41 < ParahSai1in> im not seeing how it's different from karma or whuffie
13:41 < chris_99> could they just skip the prestige thing, and get normal money for what they create
13:41 < radivis> Karma is not used for generating money.
13:42 < radivis> chris_99: Yes, that's the old way to do it. But it's suboptimal, because it's hard to get real money directly if the others don't need to pay to get something.
13:42 < chris_99> hmm i guess so
13:42 < radivis> Karma is bound to a narrow set of activities in systems that implement it
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13:43 < radivis> It's not easy to give others karma just so, because of their general contribution to the world.
13:44 <@kanzure> is there an actual whuffie implementation somewhere?
13:44 < radivis> I think so, but it's based on Facebook comments and retweets.
13:45 < radivis> That's not a very good basis for judging the contribution of an individual.
13:45 <@kanzure> that's not whuffie
13:45 < radivis> Well, there was a "Whuffie bank" that did something like that
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13:46 < radivis> How do you think that whuffie would/should work, kanzure?
13:46 <@kanzure> no thanks
13:49 < ParahSai1in> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/Mutual_Banking.pdf
13:49 <@kanzure> i regret everything
13:49 < ParahSai1in> lol
13:50 < radivis> It that about Freigeld or something like that?
13:51 < ParahSai1in> i hate when political/economic theorists just say "reading is hard" and decide to mental masturbate without regard for anyone past or contemporary
13:52 < ParahSai1in> "im a unique snowflake, and nobody else could have possibly had the same idea as me before"
13:53 < radivis> So what? I prefer getting things done, rather to reseach the whole history of alternative economic ideas beforehand
13:53 <@kanzure> ah but perhaps you are not actually getting anything done
13:53 <@kanzure> using information is not a bad thing, yo
13:54 < radivis> I've actually borrowed a concept from such alternative money theories. It seemed to be more useful in my system than in the more conventional ones.
13:56 < radivis> Perhaps I should have simply claimed that I have done enough research. It's true enough
13:57 < radivis> My system is there. It only needs to be implemented in software.
13:58 < ParahSai1in> ok ill read
13:58 < radivis> woah, a miracle :D
13:59 <@kanzure> radivis: hardly. we read a lot in here..
13:59 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/
13:59 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/
13:59 <@kanzure> etc.
13:59 < radivis> Btw: My documentation is old. I should update it soon
13:59 < radivis> There are a few minor mistakes in the current version
14:26 <@kanzure> "No matter how smart you are, the Gods of Biology are fickle. You may end up with a shitty protein, an assay that only works when the moon is aligned with Venus or cells that only grow when you swirl counter-clockwise."
14:26 <@kanzure> "As much as people like to pretend Biology is science...the sad truth is that a lot is practically voodoo incantations to the protocol devised 15 years ago by a post-doc."
14:26 <@kanzure> i haven't heard about the swirling issue
14:30 < brownies> that sort of thing is why i could never really get into biology or chemistry
14:30 < brownies> much easier to do math, where the numbers are the same no matter how carefully you write them down
14:31 <@kanzure> it's too bad that nobody has figured out how to fix the situation with protocols though
14:31 <@kanzure> i mean, if we can document which protocols suck the most and why, maybe they can be fixed
14:31 <@kanzure> or we could make up alternatives.
14:32 <@kanzure> i suspect that people sort of give up on making a better method because they figure the other methods are "good enough"
14:33 < brownies> you had mentioned this issue around documenting protocols before, i think
14:34 <@kanzure> tons of times
14:34 <@kanzure> documenting protocols won't necessarily make them work better, though
14:34 < brownies> i forget exactly what conclusion we reached last time, but i feel like the most-used protocols are naturally going to get refined as many people execute them
14:46 < radivis> I'll go to bed now. If you want to leave me a note, email (mobile@radivis.com) is the best way to do that.
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15:06 < ParahSai1in> paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bm3015736
15:06 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Fabrication%20of%203-Dimensional%20Cellular%20Constructs%20via%20Microstereolithography%20Using%20a%20Simple%2C%20Three-Component%2C%20Poly%28Ethylene%20Glycol%29%20Acrylate-Based%20System.pdf
15:12 < ParahSai1in> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10570-010-9405-y?LI=true
15:12 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Microfibrillated%20cellulose%20and%20new%20nanocomposite%20materials%3A%20a%20review.pdf
15:34 < ParahSai1in> wut. " If I include a transformed plant with the marker and the plasmid used was patented, I would be violating copyright law"
15:35 <@kanzure> oh weird i didn't know max hodak worked at pbworks http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=frisco
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15:45 <@kanzure> ": The new firm, called Deep Space Industries, Inc., announced today
15:45 <@kanzure> : (Jan. 22) that it plans to launch a fleet of prospecting spacecraft
15:45 <@kanzure> : in 2015, then begin harvesting metals and water from near-Earth
15:45 <@kanzure> : asteroids within a decade or so"
15:45 <@kanzure> http://www.space.com/19368-asteroid-mining-deep-space-industries.html
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15:51 < eudoxia> nothing will come out of it/it's all a scam
15:51 <@kanzure> elaborate
15:51 < eudoxia> like Mars One
15:51 <@kanzure> ah
15:51 < eudoxia> it's just my default position on everything good
15:51 <@kanzure> oh. well if you have insider info, please share with the rest of us.
15:52 < eudoxia> i will
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16:35 < jrayhawk> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4193574 huh, small world
16:43 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: welcome back to the land of the living
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17:03 < phm_> moinmoin
17:14 < phm_> I wonder if I am welcome here.
17:15 < jrayhawk> NO YOU FOOL OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE YOU DONE
17:15 < jrayhawk> also hello!
17:15 < phm_> hi
17:16 < phm_> kanz said he didn't like ZS people. And I came here because I saw it mentioned on the ZS list. Although I don't call myself a member.
17:17 < jrayhawk> ssshh he doesn't have to know
17:17 < phm_> He sounds very strict!
17:19 < phm_> but I like this idea about inventing the future, instead of just speculating about it
17:22 < phm_> "seemingly populated by people who haven't heard of all the failed late nineties h+ religions" Which religions? Why did they fail?
17:23 <@kanzure> they succeeded at doing what they intended to do (write articles)
17:23 < phm_> who is they?
17:23 <@kanzure> but nobody cared.
17:23 < phm_> oh. right. just a bunch of bloggers
17:24 <@kanzure> well, if you want an explicit list i suppose this will do okay http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/transhumanism.org.ml.members.zip
17:24 < phm_> If there is no physical commune then I'm not interested
17:24 <@kanzure> ugh communes. don't talk to me about communes.
17:24 < phm_> Why?
17:25 < phm_> Isn't it a good idea to increase productivity?
17:25 <@kanzure> that's not what communes do.
17:25 < phm_> They could do that, if done properly.
17:25 < phm_> You disagree?
17:26 <@kanzure> after reviewing your previous messages from yesterday i'm not interested in talking about this with you
17:26 < phm_> May I ask why?
17:26 <@kanzure> i already explained why to you
17:26 < phm_> Would you like me not to be here?
17:26 <@kanzure> in the backlog.
17:26 < phm_> I am very confused.
17:27 <@kanzure> this is a backlog: http://gnusha.org/logs/2013-01-22.log
17:29 < brownies> what's ZS?
17:29 <@kanzure> a social club interested in pr
17:31 <@kanzure> eudoxia: you're missing the "order of cosmic engineers" in your "silly religions" list.
17:33 < brownies> sounds nice. do they have cocktail parties?
17:34 <@kanzure> yes, in second life
17:34 < phm_> When you said 'your previous messages' are you referring to me specifically?
17:34 <@kanzure> phm_: yes
17:35 < juri_> wow. lots of scroll today. this is going to take a while to read through.
17:35 < phm_> Did you mention me in this backlog?
17:35 <@kanzure> yes i replied to your messages
17:35 < phm_> I'm confused
17:35 <@kanzure> i even gave you the link
17:36 < phm_> What is it that I said or was talking about that you do not like or approve of?
17:36 <@kanzure> i told you in the backlog
17:37 < phm_> communes?
17:37 < phm_> It would be easier for me if you just made things explicit.
17:38 <@kanzure> i was explicit. i wrote them down and sent you messages. they are stored in that document.
17:38 <@kanzure> i don't understand why this is hard for you?
17:38 < phm_> Maybe I'm stupid, or maybe you've not been very clear. I don't know.
17:39 < phm_> Have you judged that I can contribute nothing useful to this channel?
17:40 < phm_> Or is it that you would just prefer me not to discuss certain topics?
17:42 < phm_> I assume second life is a slur on openqwaq
17:42 <@kanzure> you are impossible to communicate with.
17:43 < phm_> I don't understand what you mean.
17:43 <@kanzure> is english your primary language? it might be helpful if you just speak your native language.
17:43 < phm_> Are we not communicating now?
17:44 < phm_> I hope I'm not upsetting you or anyone else. I'm just genuinely confused about your feelings.
17:44 <@kanzure> fuck my feelings, learn to read dude
17:45 < phm_> I can read. Why would you suggest otherwise?
17:45 < phm_> You don't seem to answer some questions explicitly
17:46 < phm_> Am I unwelcome here?
17:46 <@kanzure> i've already given you tons of answers to all of your questions, and you keep ignoring these answers. this is very infuriating.
17:46 < phm_> I'm not ignoring you. I just don't see them.
17:47 <@kanzure> you're saying the backlog is incomplete?
17:47 < phm_> Maybe it's quicker if you just restate explicitly?
17:47 <@kanzure> no
17:47 <@kanzure> just click the link.
17:47 < phm_> I did. I don't see the answers to my questions.
17:48 <@kanzure> you asked if you were unwelcome. the answer is in there.
17:48 <@kanzure> you asked what i don't like about your ideas. the answer is in there.
17:48 <@kanzure> you asked why i am uninterested in communicating with you. that answer is also in there.
17:50 < phm_> Then something very strange is going on, because I don't see those answers. Could you please restate them?
17:56  * phm_ blinks
17:56 <@kanzure> 11:35 <@kanzure> phm_: could you do me a favor and leave your wacky theories about the human brain/emotions/logic out of here?
17:57 <@kanzure> 11:47 <@kanzure> phm_: global consciousness is even more ridiculous than regular consciousness, which people can't even define.
17:57 <@kanzure> 13:09 < radivis> So Zero State members are welcome here, but this chanell doesn't see a point in accociating with Zero State officially?
17:57 <@kanzure> 13:09 <@kanzure> yes
17:59 < phm_> Have you judged that I can contribute nothing useful to this channel?
17:59 <@kanzure> what a curious question. why would you ask me that?
17:59 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure
18:00 < phm_> Maybe I'm insecure.
18:00 < phm_> I would like to talk to you.
18:00 < kanzure> about what
18:01 < phm_> Anything. Just to get a better idea about how you think. But you said 'you are impossible to communicate with.'. I don't understand why you think so.
18:02 < kanzure> because the messages that you do read you don't seem to understand, but mostly you don't even read them
18:03 < phm_> reading backlogs is always difficult. I am trying.
18:04 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:04 < kanzure> yo yashgaroth
18:04 < yashgaroth> madre de chatlog
18:05 < phm_> Do you disagree that communes can help increase human productivity?
18:05 < kanzure> so can drugs
18:05 < phm_> So you're anti-drugs?
18:05 < kanzure> no
18:05 < phm_> so what's your point?
18:06 < kanzure> that enumerating all the things that can increase human productivity isn't that interesting
18:06 < phm_> If we know they can make us more productive. And your aim is to DO stuff. Isn't it worth thinking about, then we can do more stuff?
18:07 < phm_> not just thinking about. Doing.
18:07 < kanzure> so far there has been no machinist commune to my knowledge. OSE might count i guess.
18:07 < phm_> So you think it must always fail?
18:07 < kanzure> what must fail?
18:07 < phm_> a commune.
18:08 < kanzure> how does anything i just said talk about failure??
18:08 < kanzure> wtf :(
18:08 < phm_> ):
18:08 < phm_> You should try to guess what I'm thinking.
18:08 < phm_> guess what I want to know. I think you have enough information to make good guesses.
18:09 < phm_> I'm trying to make it clear
18:09 < phm_> You want to get stuff done, right?
18:09 < phm_> If a commune can make people more efficient. Why not start one?
18:10 < phm_> Do you think it's doomed to fail?
18:10 < phm_> Or do you think it won't actually increase productivity?
18:11 < phm_> Or is the project just too big , so you deem it unrealistic and not worth discussing?
18:11 < kanzure> what project
18:11 < phm_> Setting up a commune
18:12 < phm_> for transhumans, or whatever
18:14 < phm_> To further your aims. Which seems to be getting transhumany stuff done.
18:14 < kanzure> efficiency isn't the reason that people make communes.
18:14 < phm_> It could be.
18:15 < kanzure> what is your measurement of efficiency?
18:15 < kanzure> lines of code?
18:15 < phm_> If you think it would be more efficient, and you set up a commune for that reason, then efficiency is the reason you made a commune
18:15 < phm_> You can come up with your own metrics
18:16 < phm_> LoC is not a good one.
18:16 < kanzure> so what you're saying is that you don't actually have evidence that it is more efficient?
18:16 < phm_> not hard evidence.
18:16 < kanzure> so far it sounds like you would be better served by living in a hackerspace.
18:16 < phm_> but I think I could convince you.
18:17 < kanzure> i am particularly immune to arguments for the creation of communes because of a cult that indoctrinated me many years ago
18:17 < phm_> I see. What happened?
18:17 < kanzure> nothing
18:17 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
18:18 < phm_> Why did you decide to live with them?
18:18 < kanzure> i didn't
18:18 < phm_> How did they indoctrinate you?
18:18 < kanzure> it's really boring
18:19 < phm_> It sounds interesting.
18:19 < phm_> You seem smart. How did you fall for their tricks?
18:19 < kanzure> they weren't tricks.
18:20 < phm_> So why did you listen to them?
18:20 < phm_> And why did you change your mind?
18:20 < kanzure> i didn't change my mind.
18:20 < kanzure> you are seriously having a hard time reading dude
18:20 < phm_> So you're still indoctrinated?
18:21 < kanzure> indoctrination usually means introduced
18:21 < kanzure> i suppose in this context it means something more sinister
18:21 < phm_> So you were only introduced to them?
18:21 < jrayhawk> is 'real dumb' sinister enough
18:21 < kanzure> wtf i didn't say that
18:22 < kanzure> jrayhawk: yes maybe
18:22 < phm_> you said you were indoctrinated
18:22 < jrayhawk> seems appropriate, then
18:22 < phm_> and then you said indoctrinated means introduced
18:22 < kanzure> "only introduced to them" can mean lots of other things
18:23 < kanzure> this is going in circles
18:23 < phm_> So be more explicit! How am I supposed to read you when you're so ambiguous?
18:23 < kanzure> "only introduced" adds an additional word
18:23 < phm_> I understand the problem
18:23 < kanzure> adding words?
18:23 < kanzure> not reading?
18:24 < phm_> I'm working to fix it.
18:24 < phm_> It may take some time
18:24 < kanzure> anyway, there are also other commune initiatives that have gone nowhere like patri's stuff from seasteading institute
18:24 < kanzure> which he has abandoned
18:24 < phm_> So I'm guessing you don't feel comfortable about talking to me about this cult.
18:25 < phm_> So you're looking at failed projects and thinking it's always going to fail?
18:25 < kanzure> no
18:25 < kanzure> you are a liar
18:25 < phm_> What?
18:25 < kanzure> where did i say that. wtf.
18:25 < phm_> I asked a question!
18:25 < phm_> Please don't be angry with me. It upsets me.
18:26 < kanzure> i don't think i said i was angry at you. what the hell man. you just keep doing this.
18:26 < phm_> You're not used to the way I communicate.
18:26 -!- panax [panax@131.247.116.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds]
18:26 < phm_> Doing what?
18:26 < kanzure> misreading.
18:27 < phm_> I'm just curious. I just asked a question.
18:27 < jrayhawk> the "find most interesting inference"->"ask about most interesting inference" cycle you have should dynamically adapt to the confidence of the involved priors
18:27 -!- panax [~panax@68.200.160.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:27 < phm_> You seem very emotional.
18:28 < kanzure> because he talks about priors?
18:28 < kanzure> or for some other reason?
18:28 < phm_> heh
18:28 < jrayhawk> Specifically, when your priors are repeatedly wrong, you should grealy lower the confidence of your priors and update the confidence of your inferences
18:28 < jrayhawk> and, presumably, infer much shorter distances.
18:28 < jrayhawk> s/grealy/greatly
18:28 < phm_> This is hard work!
18:29 -!- OldCoder_ [~OldCoder_@wsip-68-105-243-2.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:29 < phm_> You called me a liar. What do you think I lied about?
18:29 < kanzure> you lied that it was a reasonable inference to make.
18:29 < jrayhawk> I imagine you're better calibrated for more gracious or dumber conversational partners, who are either more willing to interpret and guide your inferational process, or don't think very fast to begin with.
18:29 < kanzure> the suggestion was highly ridiculous
18:30 < jrayhawk> Kanzure is not gracious.
18:30 < kanzure> hahah
18:30 < phm_> I've already understood that. I am working to fix the problem.
18:31 < phm_> which suggestion?
18:31 < kanzure> the suggestion that "you're looking at failed projects and thinking it's always going to fail"
18:31 < phm_> can you please try to be very explicit? It will save me time.
18:31 < phm_> It wasn't a suggestion. It was a question.
18:32 < phm_> didn't it have a question mark at the end? It should have done
18:32 < phm_> it did.
18:32 < phm_> you took away my question mark
18:32 < phm_> no wonder you're confused
18:32 < kanzure> i was quoting the suggestion of the message
18:32 < phm_> There was no suggestion. It was a question.
18:33 < kanzure> this is entering the realm of extreme pedantry, but a question can easily contain a suggestion or the result of an inference.
18:33 < phm_> you're making assumptions about what I'm thinking. Don't. Just answer the questions, please.
18:34 < phm_> so the answer was 'no'
18:34 < phm_> next question.
18:34 -!- panax [~panax@68.200.160.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
18:34 < phm_> Why do you think other projects failed?
18:34 -!- panax [panax@131.247.116.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:35 < phm_> I should point out that you're free to not answer, but I assume that goes without saying.
18:35 < kanzure> what failure? i didn't ever mention failure. that's what i was trying to point out.
18:35 < kanzure> so much for your reliance on the explicit
18:36 < phm_> "anyway, there are also other commune initiatives that have gone nowhere like patri's stuff from seasteading institute"
18:36 < phm_> So did they intend to go nowhere?
18:36 < phm_> if not, then they have failed. right?
18:36 < phm_> So you mentioned a failure.
18:36 < kanzure> the people failed, yes
18:36 < kanzure> they failed to continue, or something
18:37 < phm_> So why do you think they failed?
18:37 < kanzure> what?
18:37 < kanzure> the communes didn't even happen. how could they fail.
18:37 < phm_> did they intend not to continue?
18:38 < phm_> if you intend to set up a commune, and you don't, then you failed.
18:38 < kanzure> ok but you were asking about communes, not people starting a commune
18:38 < phm_> both are relevant
18:39 < phm_> So do you think such a commune is an impossible dream?
18:39 < phm_> (one that increases productivity)
18:40 < phm_> and furthers transhuman goals.
18:43 < phm_> does kanzure think "interpret and guide your inferational process" is a bad thing? Or is he just incapable?
18:44 < phm_> Why is he not gracious?
18:44 -!- wrldpc [~wrldpc@203.105.94.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:45 < phm_> Does he think it's a bad thing?
18:45 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:55 < phm_> oh! I understand why I didn't read your line about 'wacky ideas'. I was in bed. I should have quit properly.
18:56 < phm_> but still. I had timed out. So Why were you trying to talk to me? Are people here expected to read the backlog?
18:57 < kanzure> skip the backlog at your own peril
18:57 < kanzure> no, but you asked and i told you that i6
18:58 < kanzure> oops
18:58 < kanzure> irc user error.
18:58 < phm_> You made it sound as if you said that when I was actually listening.
18:59 < phm_> That's why I was confused
19:01 < phm_> 'friends don't let you go to grad school or worse.' What is better than Grad school? If we had a commune.....
19:05 < phm_> "amon already replied to my comments on zero state. he shat all over me." This is fascinating. You'd think rational people would be able to avoid petty emotional squabbles, but no.
19:06 < phm_> So we have a long way to go.
19:06 < phm_> Not that I shouldn't have expected it
19:06 < kanzure> it's not an emotional squabble. that's a complete misrepresentation of the situation.
19:07 < phm_> I'm pretty confident that it is.
19:07 < kanzure> did you read the exchange?
19:07 < phm_> nope.
19:07 < kanzure> so your confidence is based on...?
19:07 < phm_> magic.
19:07 < kanzure> k
19:08 < phm_> I will investigate further.
19:08 < phm_> I hope I'm wrong.
19:08 < phm_> magic is notoriously unreliable
19:11 < phm_> 'shat all over me' is a big clue that emotions are involved
19:11 < kanzure> wrong.
19:12 < phm_> I don't know any rationalists that would use that kind of language.
19:12 < kanzure> maybe your rationalists suck
19:12 -!- JayDugger [~duggerjw@pool-173-74-81-239.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:12 < phm_> yes, but at least they're rational. That's the one think you can count on.
19:12 < phm_> thing
19:14 < phm_> Do you have any formal training in critical thinking?
19:14 < phm_> What do you do with your life? Biology?
19:18 < phm_> he started claiming wild things like "oh obviously kanzure you must hate everyone"
19:18 < phm_> I've never spoken to Amon, but I can understand why he might have said that!
19:20 < phm_> Amon's take on censorship did worry me
19:21 < phm_> Oh dear. Now it's becoming clear: "the hatred helps protect this channel from terrible things"
19:26 < phm_> 'you suck, no, you suck, go team H+, boooo,  go team ZS, you suck! we we we' What a fucking mess. I suppose I'm trolling now. I'm working on a constructive fix, though.
19:26 < kanzure> you still misunderstand the situation
19:27 < phm_> enlighten me
19:27 < kanzure> nobody said "go team h+"
19:27 < kanzure> that's the first step to your enlightenment
19:27 < phm_> not explicitly
19:27 < phm_> but I wouldn't be surprised if they did
19:27 < joehot> <phm_> What do you do with your life? Biology?
19:27 < kanzure> i would. everyone in here thinks h+ sucks.
19:28 < phm_> so why is hplus in the name?
19:28 < kanzure> because hplus was a thing before wta renamed itself to humanityplus (hplus)
19:28 < kanzure> hplusroadmap existed long before wta rebranded itself.
19:28 < phm_> so what do you call the members of this chan?
19:28 < jrayhawk> because clearly if we centralize ourselves in more communities, TECHNOLOGY HAPPENS
19:28 < jrayhawk> right guys
19:29 < jrayhawk> right
19:29 < phm_> when you say 'we'. Who is we?
19:29 < kanzure> jrayhawk: haha
19:29 < phm_> Do you have a name?
19:29 < jrayhawk> ##hplusroadmap
19:29 < kanzure> jrayhawk: wait, you might be criticising me or the others too. it's hard to tell.
19:30 < phm_> humans love being in gangs/tribes
19:30 < kanzure> i don't
19:31 < kanzure> you shouldn't make generic claims like that because they don't tend to be directly useful
19:31 < jrayhawk> i am mostly making fun of the ZS and H+ mentality of community building and advocacy
19:31 < phm_> I'm going somewhere with it.
19:31 < kanzure> jrayhawk: ah okay.
19:32 < kanzure> jrayhawk: 'cause your message could have been interpreted to mean "being callous about new random communities that are trying the same (though failed) strategy is not a good way to make technology happen", but i see your comment was more for phm_'s benefit.
19:32 < jrayhawk> ZS and H+ are valuable honeypots, at least
19:32 < kanzure> heh
19:33 < kanzure> not sure about that either. surely you could make a better one.
19:33 < phm_> what do you mean by honeypot?
19:33 < kanzure> i mean, i guess it's hard to tell from the outside
19:33 < kanzure> which is a very important characteristic
19:33 < jrayhawk> yeah, apparently better containment is necessary
19:34 < jrayhawk> what was the other piny thing you wanted me to do
19:34 < kanzure> git-daemon is no longer installed
19:34 < jrayhawk> oh, right
19:34 < kanzure> and installing it seems to be fraught with failure
19:34 < kanzure> i broke it, i admit it. it was something about installing daemon-whatever-run
19:34 < kanzure> daemon-tools-run
19:36 < kanzure> i should have sent you the details by email, i wasn't thinking
19:37 < jrayhawk> eh, it's reasonably obvious
19:37 < kanzure> there was another issue with the newuser.cgi script somewhere
19:37 < kanzure> something about it not running over http
19:37 < jrayhawk> Yeah, fixed that.
19:37 < kanzure> hooray
19:38 -!- wrldpc [~wrldpc@203.105.94.33] has quit [Quit: wrldpc]
19:39 < kanzure> what was the problem?
19:45 < jrayhawk> I split the access permissions for the httpd and cgis and forgot to make the piny email verification HMAC key readable by the new cgi group.
19:50 < kanzure> makes sense to me
19:50 < kanzure> obviously this calls for strict unit testing in a chroot for new versions (:cough:)
19:50 < phm_> Do you have a list or any documents discussing the general agenda/philosophy of ##hplusroadmap (rather than just specifics of biohacking)
19:51 < kanzure> yes, but you should be informed that we have a strict no-philosophy ban. however, if you feel that you can make a contribution that i won't ban you for, you are free to make an attempt.
19:51 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration
19:51 < phm_> you ban no-philosophy? Is that what you intended to say?
19:52 < kanzure> i meant to say "a strict no-philosophy rule"
19:52 < jrayhawk> he bans the sort of navel-gazing ineffectual prognostication that the term "transhuman" seems to attract
19:53 < kanzure> also other basic things like consciousness
19:53 < jrayhawk> ugh
19:53 < phm_> I don't approve of censorship, but I understand why you do it
19:53 < jrayhawk> hooray
19:58 < phm_> The wiki is still in early stages?
19:58 < phm_> I'm asking is that true. not suggesting it, btw.
19:58 < phm_> May you prefer me to say 'is the wiki still in early stages' ?
19:58 < kanzure> what defines a stage
19:59 < phm_> can't you guess what I want to know and give me the correct information?
19:59 < phm_> That would be nice, if possible.
20:00 < kanzure> no, i have no fucking clue what you want
20:00 < kanzure> the fuck is a stage?
20:00 < rigel> just installed a ssd
20:00 < phm_> heh. I was just about to say: I don't think it's difficult to do
20:00 < kanzure> nice
20:00 < rigel> as primary hd on the laptop
20:00 < kanzure> welcome to the future
20:00 < rigel> it's pretty fast so far
20:00 < phm_> kanz seems to lack empathy.
20:00 < rigel> decided to nuke my old install of mint and upgrade too
20:00 < phm_> Are you autistic?
20:01 < rigel> itwas getting pretty crufty
20:01 < jrayhawk> the wiki is a thing people put information in. sometimes people organize that information.
20:01 < phm_> I know what a wiki is.
20:01 < phm_> I'm asking about the information
20:01 < jrayhawk> okay, so what is it you want to know about the wiki
20:01 < phm_> things like: how many articles, how many editors, might be useful
20:02 < kanzure> find . | wc -l
20:02 < phm_> when did it start. you know. facts
20:02 < jrayhawk> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/log/ apparently, mostly one editor
20:02 < kanzure> not quite
20:02 < phm_> so that suggests to me an early stage.
20:02 < kanzure> there are also a few others that have contributed by way of my merge with openwetware
20:02 < phm_> compare to wikipedia for a late stage.
20:03 < phm_> Do I need to define stage?
20:03 < jrayhawk> is it like cancer
20:03 < jrayhawk> because it sounds like cancer
20:03 < kanzure> haha
20:04 < phm_> no.
20:04 < jrayhawk> gosh bryan why don't you do more community building and advocacy around that wiki
20:04 < phm_> So how long has the wiki been running?
20:04 < jrayhawk> surely if you had a hundred extra people everything would be better!
20:05 < jrayhawk> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/log/?ofs=800
20:05 < kanzure> first commit was Date:   Sat Apr 4 19:29:13 2009 +0000
20:05 < kanzure> afb8aff75495492066c8a134ec9128a75a314815
20:05 < kanzure> 25 unique contributors
20:06 < kanzure> well.. sort of unique.
20:06 < jrayhawk> you might be double-counting git+web, yeah
20:06 < kanzure> Author: jrayhawk+gnusha@omgwallhack.org <jrayhawk+gnusha@omgwallhack.org>
20:06 < kanzure> Author: jrayhawk+gnusha@omgwallhack.org <jrayhawk@gnusha.svcs.cs.pdx.edu>
20:06 < kanzure> Author: jrayhawk <jrayhawk@web>
20:06 < kanzure> Author: Joe Rayhawk <jrayhawk@farfotzle.omgwallhack.org>
20:06 < kanzure> you are the worst offender
20:06 < phm_> not very impressive. Are most of the ~70 people here inactive?
20:06 < kanzure> no. they are just scared of you.
20:06 < phm_> Why aren't you?
20:06 < kanzure> i am terrified
20:07 < phm_> SO why aren't you hiding?
20:07 < jrayhawk> all his adrenaline goes straight to his keyboarding
20:07 < rigel> this is interesting, why is everyone taking the piss
20:07 < kanzure> because it's my job to fix these sorts of problems
20:07 < jrayhawk> everything he's said to you has been a blind 180wpm panic
20:07 < kanzure> yep
20:07 < phm_> Are you calling me a problem?
20:08 < kanzure> evidently your humor detector is broken
20:08 < phm_> I always take people literally online
20:09 < kanzure> well, i suppose it's true that it's a 180wpm panic anyway
20:09 < phm_> missing humor is much more acceptable than thinking something is humor when it isn't
20:11 < phm_> I am happy.
20:15 < brownies> this is odd.
20:23 < rigel> holy cats is this shit fast
20:24 < rigel> rebooting takes like 20 seconds, and the bios is the slowest part
20:24 < kanzure> i was promised a 3 second boot time
20:24 < kanzure> and i haven't gotten it yet
20:45 < phm_> Do you need it? I just suspend to RAM.
20:46 < kanzure> yes, i reboot at least once a year
20:46 < phm_> So 3 second boot is really gonna save you a lot of time.
20:47 < phm_> Do you program?
20:47 < phm_> What is your field?
20:47 < kanzure> yes i write code when i feel like it https://github.com/kanzure
20:47 < kanzure> my field is doing whatever the hell i want
20:47 < phm_> Which languages do you like?
20:47 < kanzure> why
20:47 < phm_> curious.
20:48 < phm_> I have an agenda
20:48 < phm_> I want to know if you can help me
20:48 < kanzure> state your problem
20:50 < phm_> abstract: being more happy. Specifically today: I want to find out if Pier is 'over-engineered'
20:50 < kanzure> you can take drugs to bliss out, you know
20:50 < kanzure> also deep brain stimulation works
20:50 < phm_> That is fake happiness (drugs)
20:51 < kanzure> nope
20:51 < kanzure> there's nothing fake about it
20:51 < kanzure> it's real, genuine happiness in your brain
20:51 < phm_> funny. I got into an argument with my psychologist about this.
20:51 < kanzure> psychologists are jerks
20:51 < phm_> I agree.
20:51 < phm_> I think I managed to convince him that he was wrong.
20:52 < phm_> Why are you not gracious?
20:52 < phm_> What is your plan for today? i.e. what are you working on?
20:54 < phm_> Which languages do you like? If you don't answer questions should I assume it's because you don't want to, or because you've forgotten?
20:54 < phm_> I don't want to be rude by keep asking you questions that you don't feel comfortable answering.
20:57 < jrayhawk> runit's sorta working again; You may want to add a sudo -u bryan shim to translation-server.
20:57 < kanzure> translation-server.git ?
20:58 < kanzure> oh you mean the running instance?
20:58 < kanzure> btw basically my goal was to have translators.git have a post-commit hook that recompiles+reboots translation-server
20:58 < kanzure> still not sure about the best way to do that
20:58 < kanzure> phm_: why can't you bug jrayhawk about those things, why me
20:58 < phm_> it looks like you like python? Do you know smalltalk or lisp or haskell?
20:59 < kanzure> yes.
20:59 < kanzure> if i don't answer your questions, you should assume it's because they are terrible questions.
20:59 < phm_> Why do you feel that way?
21:00 < kanzure> you're making those really bad inferences again dude
21:00 < jrayhawk> hmm. i guess runit's still a little broken
21:00 < phm_> What do you think I inferred?
21:01 < jrayhawk> Okay, that's better. I mean you should shim /etc/service/translation-server/run
21:02 < kanzure> how should i run that with runit?
21:02 < kanzure> or.. what? can you explain my infrastructure to me? haha
21:02 < jrayhawk> man sv
21:03 < kanzure> ok. so sv is still the way to run these things.
21:03 < phm_> For the record: I didn't infer anything. Not that I'm aware of.
21:03 < kanzure> so should i drop in a sv statement or a ./etc/service/translation-server/run statement into the post-receive hook?
21:04 < kanzure> hm okay. sv.
21:04 < jrayhawk> /etc/service/translation-server/run is run as root at the moment, which is naturally a little troublesome for the relative paths in that file, and would presumably shit all over your build directory.
21:04 < kanzure> oh right
21:04 < kanzure> yes this is true
21:05 < jrayhawk> sudo -u bryan -i or -H would set HOME
21:05 < kanzure> and does sv require sudo?
21:05 < jrayhawk> Probably.
21:05 < jrayhawk> You can add that to /etc/sudoers.d
21:05 < kanzure> so the post-receive hook would fail for everyone who is not me :(
21:05 < jrayhawk> sudo cat /etc/sudoers.d/pinyadmin for examples
21:06 < kanzure> oh neat
21:06 < kanzure> okay then
21:07 < kanzure> how did you fix the git daemon things and runit?
21:07 < jrayhawk> I commented out the bit of the postinstall script that was thought you had a real init process.
21:08 < jrayhawk> s/ was//
21:08 < kanzure> i had no init anything?
21:08 < jrayhawk> init is a cunning lie
21:08 < kanzure> rebooting would have meant death?
21:09 < jrayhawk> Nah, rebooting's safe. Postinst would still have failed, though.
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21:14 < kanzure> jrayhawk: well, i don't want to give everyone access to sv. i suppose i should write a script that wraps sv?
21:16 < jrayhawk> Yeah.
21:17 < kanzure> and i should put this in /home/bryan/code/paperbot/translation-server/something or in the git folder or what's the morally right thing to do?
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21:52 < Guest40461> i heard this is the channel to join if i want to start a commune
21:52 < Guest40461> is there an FAQ?
21:52 < kanzure> ha ha
21:52 < Guest40461> :)
21:52 < kanzure> i guess tyler.
21:54 < Guest40461> woah jrayhawk and bkero are both in here. i guess portland is a hip diybio  scene
21:54 < kanzure> there's also nmz787, lichen, mokbor, bioguy, and a few others in portland.
21:54 < Guest40461> i don't know those guys
21:54 < kanzure> are you in portland?
21:54 < jrayhawk> Sometimes I go bouldering with nmz787
21:54 < Guest40461> yep :)
21:55 < Guest40461> i work out of PIE
21:55 < kanzure> sounds delicious
21:55 < Guest40461> http://portlandwiki.org/Portland_Incubator_Experiment
21:56 < kanzure> did they fund you?
21:56 < Guest40461> they gave a small amount to our last round
21:56 < Guest40461> our biggest investor is mark cuban
21:56 < kanzure> what are you doing?
21:56 < kanzure> yes mark is rather huge
21:57 < Guest40461> http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2012/10/05/how-a-little-bird-told-mark-cuban-where-to-invest-his-money/
21:57 < kanzure> "Since its incorporation in 2011, and private beta launch a few months ago, Little Bird amassed 24 paying clients, and four full-time employees in Portland, Ore., including co-founders Marshall Kirkpatrick, Mikalina Kirkpatrick and Tyler Gillies."
21:58 < nmz787> Guest40461: hi
21:58 < yashgaroth> the bird is his chin
21:58 < Guest40461> lol
21:58 < kanzure> oh you just do twitter stats
21:58 < Guest40461> nmz787: hihi
21:58 < Guest40461> kanzure: its klout but we don't suck
21:58 < kanzure> well okay. twitterlytics are needed by someone i suppose.
21:58 < kanzure> yes i'm familiar with klout sadly
21:58 < Guest40461> kanzure: yeah its mostly PR and marketing people
21:59 < Guest40461> not related to my diybio/transhumanist interests
21:59 < kanzure> right
21:59 < lichen> hello nick highlight
21:59 < kanzure> well, mark funded a company that is a competitor of mine
21:59 < Guest40461> kanzure: :(
21:59 < kanzure> not a bad thing!
21:59 < nmz787> Guest40461: so what's your field?
21:59 < kanzure> competitors getting money is a very good thing
21:59 < Guest40461> nmz787: 40 people on linkedin say im good at ruby, so i'll go with ruby programmer :)
22:00 < nmz787> ahh
22:00 < kanzure> how long did it take you to close your round?
22:00 < nmz787> cool
22:00 < Guest40461> a month or two maybe
22:00 < kanzure> not bad
22:00 < kanzure> well, actually, i guess that depends on traction
22:01 < Guest40461> we were fishing for awhile before mark though
22:01 < Guest40461> 6months prolly
22:01 < Guest40461> maybe even more
22:01 < Guest40461> but technically that was a different round
22:01 < nmz787> Guest40461: do you know if PIE is accepting applications for grants now?
22:01 < kanzure> are you the one doing the programming for the other two?
22:01 < kanzure> nmz787: $18k isn't that much
22:02 < nmz787> kanzure: but I'm here anyway
22:02 < nmz787> kanzure: and have an idea worth funding
22:02 < nmz787> kanzure: it's almost a year of PhD salary!
22:02 < kanzure> uh dude i could get you more than $18k
22:02 < kanzure> if it's for the dna synthesis project
22:03 < Guest40461> nmz787: i think they're accepting applications
22:03 < nmz787> kanzure: yeah?
22:03 < Guest40461> pie is good for the network and contacts
22:03 < Guest40461> not so much the money
22:03 < nmz787> kanzure: I thought we tried that earlier last year
22:03 < kanzure> nmz787: singularityu was an interesting thing to attempt, itw asn't really for the money
22:03 < Guest40461> kanzure: i used to be the only programmer we are a team of around 8 now, i have 3 other devs
22:04 < kanzure> neat.
22:04 < nmz787> the PIE website says there is skiing year round here
22:04 < kanzure> well congrats on raising
22:04 < Guest40461> thnx
22:05 < kanzure> now the hard part: getting more than 24 customers.
22:06 < kanzure> also, do you know anyone who does split testing of DMs to twitter followers?
22:08 < Guest40461> not sure what that means
22:09 < kanzure> do you know what split testing is?
22:09 < Guest40461> nope
22:09 < Guest40461> like ab testing?
22:09 < kanzure> it's exactly ab testing
22:09 < Guest40461> ah
22:09 < kanzure> doesn't require a slash when typing it out though
22:10 < Guest40461> how would you split test dm and followers? they seem like pretty disparate concepts
22:10 < kanzure> if you send out a public tweet, everyone gets the same message
22:11 < kanzure> if you do it by private message, you could figure out which messages get the most clicks so that you know which message you should send out in public
22:11 < kanzure> the wording matters a great deal to get clicks
22:11 < Guest40461> oooh
22:11 < Guest40461> gotcha
22:11 < kanzure> if you have 10M followers you might as well test two messages on 10,000 users each, or something
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22:12 < Guest40461> don't know anyone that does that
22:12 < Guest40461> good concept though
22:12 < kanzure> what is bitly doing ever since t.co happened?
22:14 < kanzure> someone should start a "lance armstrong should be appreciated for doping, not hated" fan club
22:15 < Guest40461> kanzure: but its not fair
22:15 < Guest40461> :)
22:15 < kanzure> they were all doping. how is that not fair?
22:15 < Guest40461> im being facetious
22:15 < kanzure> also, it's possible you were saying a fan club for lance is not fair
22:15 < Guest40461> heh
22:16 < Guest40461> its possible to say i am the man on the moon
22:16 < kanzure> are you?
22:16 < Guest40461> yes
22:31 < jrayhawk> portland has relocated to the moon
22:31 < jrayhawk> we can finally justify complaining about the weather more than seattle
22:31 < Guest40461> the first moon colony is prolly gonna be called portlandia
22:32 < jrayhawk> "it's not a transhumanist commune, it's a transhumanist co-op"
22:32 < Guest40461> LOLOL
22:32 < Guest40461> its funny because its true
22:32 < kanzure> hah
22:33 -!- u-metacognition [~metacogni@99-7-58-96.lightspeed.davlca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:33 < kanzure> uh oh
22:34 < u-metacognition> Hey I know you!
22:34 < Guest40461> relevant: http://beermapping.com/maps/reviews/images/locations/img_0132.jpg
22:38 < kanzure> u-metacognition: do you?
22:39 < Guest40461> u-metacognition: can you give the time and date that you know him from and what you talked about?
22:40 < Guest40461> :)
22:40 < kanzure> heh
22:40 < u-metacognition> Yea you're that guy from that radio show
22:40 < u-metacognition> what was it?
22:40 < u-metacognition> the future and you?
22:41 < kanzure> yes
22:41 < u-metacognition> Oh I'm good
22:42  * Guest40461 googles
22:42 < Guest40461> http://thefutureandyou.libsyn.com/webpage/2011/03
22:42 < kanzure> Guest40461: link is in http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/resume.pdf
22:42 < kanzure> oh hell
22:42 < kanzure> yes
22:42 < kanzure> http://www.thefutureandyou.libsyn.com/the-future-and-you-march-16-2011
22:42 < kanzure> http://www.thefutureandyou.libsyn.com/the-future-and-you-march-23-2011
22:43 < Guest40461> heh "/webpage"
22:43 < kanzure> they wanted to make sure you knew you were on the interwebs i guess
22:43 < Guest40461> i get lost sometimes
22:43 < kanzure> it happens, don't sweat it
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23:15 < barriers> kanzure: those nanorex gifs are enjoyable
23:15 < kanzure> just be cautious that they are misrepresentations
23:15 < barriers> howso?
23:17 < kanzure> "If molecular machines actually moved as shown in the animations, they wouldn't work. Don't blame the simulation or the design, though. The problem is that the standard way to render video frames creates a stroboscopic illusion of jerky motion."
23:17 < kanzure> "Atoms typically vibrate hundreds of times per frame, but standard frames capture the position of each atom at a single instant, as if seen by the flash of a stroboscope. This creates the illusion that the atoms all vibrate at the frame rate, which is far too close to the frequency of the machine's moving parts."
23:17 < kanzure> "This gives the false impression that the machine parts are moving at nearly thermal speed, comparable to the speed of sound. At that speed, even if the machine worked, friction would be intolerable."
23:17 < barriers> just a heads up
23:17 < barriers> th gallery isn;t working on the main site
23:18 < kanzure> that site is completely broken at this point
23:18 < barriers> um, so, they'd move slower or faster?
23:19 < kanzure> faster.
23:20 < barriers> how would friction be greater if they moved slower?
23:20 < kanzure> i wonder who wrote that originally. it would be nice to get them to elaborate.
23:21 < kanzure> that might have been mark sims
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23:24 < kanzure> Guest40461: you upgraded for CVE-2013-0156, right?
23:24 < Guest40461> kanzure: i don't know what that is
23:25  * Guest40461 read backlog
23:25 < Guest40461> reads*
23:25 < kanzure> rails remote execution vulnerability from earlier this month
23:25 < Guest40461> kanzure: i don't use rails
23:25 < kanzure> ah. sinatra?
23:25 < Guest40461> yep
23:25 < kanzure> well played.
23:25 < kanzure> but multi_xml was also vurnerable
23:26 < kanzure> so anything using httparty, really
23:26 < kanzure> like mailchimp or twilio
23:26 < Guest40461> we have many small services that talk to each other via a queue server
23:26 < Guest40461> we don't use httparty
23:26 < Guest40461> i'll check our dep list for multi_xml though thnx
23:26 < kanzure> resque?
23:27 < Guest40461> kanzure: we were using resque but we ended up needing something more custom
23:27 < kanzure> i like celery a lot in pythonland
23:28 < Guest40461> i've heard good things
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--- Log closed Wed Jan 23 00:00:38 2013