--- Log opened Fri Feb 01 00:00:06 2013
--- Day changed Fri Feb 01 2013
00:00 < comet> 100% real juice
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00:29 <@kanzure> "In 1967, Dr. Kolff left Cleveland Clinic to start the Division of Artificial Organs at the University of Utah and pursue his work on the artificial heart:
00:29 <@kanzure> In 1973, a calf named Tony survived for 30 days on an early Kolff heart."
00:29 <@kanzure> "In 1981, a calf named Alfred Lord Tennyson lived for 268 days on the Jarvik 5."
00:30 <@kanzure> "In 1981, Dr. William DeVries submitted a request to the FDA to implant the Jarvik 7 into a human being. On December 2, 1982, Dr. Kolff implanted the Jarvik 7 artificial heart into Barney Clark, a dentist from Seattle who was suffering from severe congestive heart failure."
00:30 <@kanzure> "While Clark lived for 112 days tethered to an external pneumatic compressor, a device weighing some 400 pounds (180 kg), during that time he suffered prolonged periods of confusion and a number of instances of bleeding, and asked several times to be allowed to die.[22]"
00:30 <@kanzure> that's the most metal thing i have ever read
00:33 <@kanzure> "n the mid-1980s, artificial hearts were powered by dishwasher-sized pneumatic power sources whose lineage went back to Alpha-Laval milking machines. Moreover, two sizable catheters had to cross the body wall to carry the pneumatic pulses to the implanted heart, greatly increasing the risk of infection."
00:33 <@kanzure> pneumatic pulses. awesome.
00:50 <@kanzure> gah github is still having trouble spelling letters https://github.com/kanzure
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01:09 < brownies> wait, THAT's the state of the art in artificial hearts still?
01:10 < brownies> they don't have a self-powered artifical heart yet? what the fuck?
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01:11 <@kanzure> brownies: from the wikipedia article, it looks like some of them are wirelessly powered through the chest. patient carries a 4 hour battery backup.
01:11 < brownies> that's... better, but still pretty shitty.
01:11 < brownies> my iPhone has a day of talk time, but the best artificial heart can't make it through an LOTR marathon?
01:12 < brownies> (to say nothing of, you know, a *regular* marathon)
01:12 <@kanzure> i have no idea if these artificial hearts work alright for heavy physical activity
01:13 <@kanzure> i assume that bovines couldn't be controlled that much
01:13 <@kanzure> so they were probably running around like normal(?)
01:13 <@kanzure> or maybe the bovines just lived out the rest of their days sedated or in a cage
01:15 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nchembio/journal/v9/n2/full/nchembio.1138.html
01:15 < paperbot> HTTP 401 unauthorized http://www.nature.com/nchembio/journal/v9/n2/pdf/nchembio.1138.pdf
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01:56 < xx> I created a GenderQueer and a GenderNeutrality channel :3
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08:25 < juri_> anyone here want to join me, building/testing/doing crazy bio-printer stuff?
08:26 < chris_99> what can you do with a bio-printer?
08:27 < juri_> i dont know, yet. as a vegan, making new foods sounds like a plan.
08:28 < juri_> i've got a plastic printer, and am building a steel printer. why not bio, too?
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08:58 < strangewarp> as a fellow vegetarian, I am waiting for the inevitable FDA ban on bio-printed edibles. mmmmm delicious
09:00 < chris_99> 3d printed falafel would be amusing
09:04 < ThomasEgi> but but but.. printed chocolate!!
09:05 < chris_99> ooh  i wouldn't turn down that
09:08 < ArmilusDajjal> bacon printer
09:08 < ArmilusDajjal> ftw
09:09 < ThomasEgi> ArmilusDajjal, shut up and TAKE MY MONEY!
09:09 < ThomasEgi> bacon brinter *drooool*
09:09 < ArmilusDajjal> i no rite
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09:35 < nmz787> lol
09:38 < ThomasEgi> the reason why i am here. cause in real life, this conversation wolud NEVER happen.
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09:53 < juri_> bacon printer? my old roommates and i have had that conversation. ;)
10:16 < nmz787> i heard in another thread that since milk is essentially a suspension of fat and protein, which is also what bacon is, smooth bacon spread isn't a crazy idea
10:16 < nmz787> so you could definitely print that
10:17 < nmz787> add in some transglutaminase to solidify it after it prints out
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10:34 < ThomasEgi> i'd love to see that.. printed bacon.. in form of a frickin dragon. put on the bbq. so it's roaring in flames!
10:34 < ThomasEgi> screaming BAACOOOON!!
10:34 < ThomasEgi> bet that'd sell like crazy
10:35 < nmz787> hahhahah
10:42 < ThomasEgi> and for our mexian friends. a burning bacon pinata!
10:42 < ThomasEgi> also.. in form of a dragon
10:43 < ThomasEgi> hand me that sword. i need to kill a dragon
10:44 < ThomasEgi> we should name that Dracon.
10:46 < nmz787> :)
10:49 < ThomasEgi> definetly worth to kickstart it
10:49 < ThomasEgi> lounds like free money
10:54 < juri_> really does.
10:56 < nmz787> paperbot:http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/ac800492v
10:56 < nmz787> paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/ac800492v
10:56 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Microprocessing%20of%20Liquid%20Plugs%20for%20Bio_chemical%20Analyses.pdf
10:56 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Microprocessing%20of%20Liquid%20Plugs%20for%20Bio_chemical%20Analyses.pdf
10:56 < kanzure> i don't understand why you need to make a new chocolate printer. what's wrong with the existing chocolate printers?
10:56 < juri_> 'bacon eaters are bastards. we should kill them all in their sleep.' -- my PETA partner, showing the love.
10:57 < ThomasEgi> i mean.. if we take the intersection of the households with bbq, and skyrim players we probably have our target audience already.
10:57 < juri_> that's my ex roommates.
10:58 < ThomasEgi> juri_, he probably didn't realise that humans are animals too, and killing them would be against what they fight for ;)
10:58 < ThomasEgi> but hey. just my 2cents. what do i know about logic
10:58 < chris_99> heh
10:59 < nmz787> ThomasEgi: does PETA kill people too?
10:59 < kanzure> PETA murders babies and they are evil.
11:01 < kanzure> " PETA has given tens of thousands of dollars to convicted arsonists and other violent criminals. This includes a 2001 donation of $1,500 to the North American Earth Liberation Front (ELF), an FBI-certified "domestic terrorist" group responsible for dozens of firebombs and death threats. During the 1990s, PETA paid $70,200 to an Animal Liberation Front (ALF) activist convicted of burning down a Michigan State University research laboratory"
11:02 < ThomasEgi> nmz787, i'd answer that question with "no, but they don't seem too unhappy if it would happen"
11:06 < nmz787> geez, let's not piss them off
11:06 < kanzure> there's some other reasons PETA is supposed to suck a lot, $1500 paid to terrorists isn't the primary reason most anti-PETA people suggest.
11:09 < kanzure> what "it kills 84 percent of supposedly "unadoptable" animals within 24 hours of their arrival."
11:15 < jrayhawk> mmmm bacon
11:15 < kanzure> i am pro-euthanasia, but that seems rather extreme.
11:15 < strangewarp> PETA confuses me so much
11:15 < strangewarp> either they have zero self-awareness, or ulterior motives
11:18 < kanzure> besides, i thought all of their marketing materials talk about fidning homes for pets?
11:18 < strangewarp> for people like me, who arrive at vegetarian/veganism through philosophy, these vegan groups that focus on appeal to emotion seem so.. untrustworthy
11:18 < kanzure> "homes... in the ground."
11:20 < strangewarp> I would eat a bioprinted bacon dragon though, that would be pretty funny
11:22 < kanzure> bioluminescent bacon would also be popular, if you could make it heat activated luminescence
11:24 < nmz787> i remember my mom had this korean stone dragon that had a cigarette lighter in it's mouth
11:24 < strangewarp> damn. yes. @_@
11:25 < nmz787> so people love anything dragon shaped i guess
11:25 < nmz787> if it has something to do with fire (which, yeah, bbq)
11:27 < ThomasEgi> 2 questions.. who's going to set up a kickstarter project.. and what target sum should be asked for?
11:30 < nmz787> wtf why does hrome history search suck
11:31 < strangewarp> caveat: would only eat the bioprinted bacon if its source were vat-grown. (Vat-grown from initially biopsied tissue is OK.) I've just realized I'm not familiar enough with bioprinting to know how the printed material would be sourced.
11:37 < kanzure> it will be sourced from jmil's printer, obviously
11:39 < strangewarp> obviously. :s
11:49 < chris_99> ThomasEgi, found out what a paid for electronic hydrometer uses, a load cell
11:51 < ThomasEgi> load cell?
11:51 < chris_99> measures force
11:51 < ThomasEgi> ah i see
11:52 < ThomasEgi> makes sense. forces are pretty easy to messure
11:53 < chris_99> apparently though just speaking to someone about them, they only give mV output
11:54 < ThomasEgi> mV is a freakin darn lot sir :D
11:54 < ThomasEgi> i'm used to work with nV
11:55 < ThomasEgi> a simple op-amp and you get your output
11:55 < chris_99> thats what i said tbh
11:56 < chris_99> but they said they where using an ADC directly
11:56 < chris_99> specifically for that kind of thing
11:56 < ThomasEgi> you could use a low ADC reference voltage and get away with it
11:56 < chris_99> mm
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12:05 < kanzure> i had a dream that bill gates was my personal chauffeur
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12:26 < kanzure> http://shapecatcher.com/ unicode character recognition
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13:06 < ielo> hey
13:06 < ielo> fenn, hi
13:10 <@fenn> wot
13:10 < ielo> remember almost a year ago
13:10 < ielo> we did this thing where we bartered ideas
13:10 < ielo> and you told me about n-grams
13:10 < ielo> i used the nick lumos back then
13:10 < ielo> http://fennetic.net/sleep/stats/net_topics_ngrams_time.txt
13:11 < kanzure> i have lumos down on 2011-06-25 for spamming
13:11 < ielo> compressed information exchange
13:11 < ielo> really, what did i spam
13:12 <@fenn> gosh what an embarrassing list of topics
13:12 <@fenn> i promise i'm not a twilight fan
13:12 < ielo> how did you generate that n-gram list
13:12 < ielo> i want to make one
13:12 < ielo> 34830 lonelygirl15
13:12 < ielo> haha
13:13 < ielo> 1260 pretty-girl-wallpapers
13:14 <@fenn> strictly speaking that's not an ngram list, for example emc-irc and irc-emc should be a single entry
13:14 < ielo> 72754 kanzure
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13:14 < ielo> these are frequencies right?
13:14 < ielo> how did you make it
13:15 <@fenn> that's a sum of the amount of time spent "on the internet" on various topics, extracted from my daily logs which i make by hand
13:16 <@fenn> when i'm done with a topic i'll write down the start and end time i spent on it, and a list of topics in a file like this http://fennetic.net/sleep/test.txt
13:16 < ielo> you are crazy
13:16 < ielo> but cool
13:17 <@fenn> you can probably make a similar chart in automated fashion by doing clustering on your browser cache or bookmark titles
13:17 <@fenn> k means or SVM, though you'll probably have to do some dimensionality reduction
13:19 < ielo> fenn do you want to see something i am making
13:19 < ielo> galactica.wikidot.com
13:20 < ielo> refresh twice
13:20 < ielo> to see ascii
13:20 <@fenn> yes everything is incredibly unlikely
13:21 < ielo> what do you think i should add to the wikidot next
13:21 < ielo> i want something neat like your ngram experiment
13:29 <@fenn> sometimes it bothers me that i've forgotten more than i'll ever remember
13:31 <@kanzure> how would you know how much you have forgotten?
13:37 <@fenn> we can estimate based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgetting_curve and various estimates of data throughput based on the relative volumes of the retina and cortex. we can estimate the processing power of the retina by making equivalent computer programs
13:38 <@fenn> i can't seem to find this figure.. i guess it was in a book by kurzweil, although somebody else came up with the formula and data
13:38 <@kanzure> i doubt your ever "remembered" what your retina was doing at any given moment in the first place
13:38 <@fenn> not true, i remember many images from my life
13:38 <@kanzure> that's not the raw retina data
13:39 <@fenn> you misunderstand, the idea is to use the retina as a known system to estimate the processing capacity of the cortex
13:40 <@fenn> it's all somewhat bogus anyway
13:41 <@fenn> at least with IRC logs one can do a random sampling of conversations, and then decide "i remember this conversation" or "i don't remember this conversation" and calculate the percentage
13:41 <@kanzure> my point wasn't about estimating how many bytes you have forgotten, but nevermind
13:43 <@fenn> haven't you noticed that you often come across forgotten logs of yourself asking a question?
13:44 <@kanzure> yes..?
13:44 <@fenn> well, i don't know, that seems like a bad thing for some reason
13:45 <@kanzure> i regret asking my question, because it now has you thinking i was confused about how to estimate bytes going into the brain, when my actual issue with your statement is more systemic like "if you've forgotten it, then why would you remember forgetting it" (but this doesn't make sense, i can't remember my actual objection)
13:45 <@fenn> i hate having to something twice, but not even knowing that i've done it before doesn't make it any better
13:46 <@fenn> it's easy to believe that something didn't happen if you can't remember it
13:47 <@kanzure> "if you have forgotten more than you can remember, then how would it bother you if you can't remember how much you have forgotten in the first place?"
13:47 <@fenn> because i can estimate based on random sampling
13:49 <@fenn> say i can remember 10% of recorded conversations from the past year, that implies my forgetting rate
13:49 <@kanzure> no i mean, "if you have failed to correctly recall a list of things you have failed to recall, then how would .." eh forget it. doesn't matter. yes it would be nice if forgetting wasn't a thing.
13:50 <@fenn> is battlestar galactica worth watching?
13:52 <@kanzure> what are you measuring for?
13:52 <@fenn> cultural relevance, communication shortcuts, new ideas, entertainment
13:53 <@kanzure> it wont provide you with anything insightful or new, and you will hate the space battles, but the music is okay and it gives you something to talk about with other people.
13:54 <@fenn> so far it reminds me too much of what i hate about star wars
13:54 <@kanzure> the character development is better than star wars
13:54 <@fenn> do they ever explain why the cylons killed humanity?
13:55 < nmz787> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odxvp-3nSw4
13:55 < nmz787> .title
13:55 < yoleaux> Some Budding Yeast I Used to Grow (Gotye Parody) - YouTube
13:56 <@fenn> another bot?
13:56 <@kanzure> i think this one is nsh's/dpk's fault. it seems to have good manners.
13:57 < nsh> dpk is to blame
13:57  * nsh only destroys things on the internet
14:03 <@kanzure> fenn: yes there are big plot holes like that, and their answers aren't really satisfactory ("the bots are perfectionist, so therefore kill all humans")
14:03 <@fenn> ielo: btw your blog post unfairly ignores the anthropic principle (sampling bias)
14:03 < ielo> fenn, hi, sorry one moment just skyping with my mum
14:06 < ielo> ffdfs
14:06 <@fenn> perhaps this is more exactly my objection http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse_gambler%27s_fallacy
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14:07 < ielo> hey
14:07 < ielo> sometimes i time out
14:07 < ielo> fenn,
14:07 < ielo> i havent finished my modelling
14:10 <@fenn> if you're modeling based on collision theory you have to eventually come up with some estimate of the concentration of suitable "love ongoing" (wo)manicules
14:11 <@kanzure> http://whatif.xkcd.com/9/ etc. etc.
14:14 <@fenn> "did your analysis say anything about the dating process of people who spend weekends at home making graphs?"
14:15 <@kanzure> speak for yourself.. scraping okcupid and crunching numbers works out pretty well for me.
14:17 <@fenn> heh s/prospects/process/ was an interesting slip
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14:54 < ielo> fenn, the modelling was actually based on the doomsday hypothesis, i wanted to explain it to my bf but using us as an example :)
14:55 < ielo> unfortunately the model doesnt work so well given that i didnt account for the probability of exactly me and him meeting
14:55 < ielo> and just did it for 2 random people
14:55 < ielo> fallin g in love
14:55 < ielo> so statistically you are always half way there
14:57 < ielo> fenn, i really enjoy reading your website
15:01 < ielo> ""So-and-so has sent you a message." Yeah, what is it? Facebook isn't telling " haha
15:06 < ielo> i have a different mindset to you, instead of changing our ways about living on the surface
15:06 < ielo> we should try to change our vision
15:06 < ielo> earth may be the cradle of mankind, but mankind has grown up and must leave his cradle
15:06 < ielo> its like a payoff matrix
15:06 < ielo> we could have 10 rainforests on 10 planets
15:12 <@fenn> i agree. i'm sad that the L5 society seems to have withered away
15:13 < eudoxia> they sort of lost focus when that guy moved on to the Extropians
15:13 < eudoxia> his name was something like Hanson
15:13 <@fenn> keith henson
15:13 <@fenn> he was mostly distracted with his court battles with the scientology bullies
15:14 < eudoxia> right, him
15:14 <@kanzure> he is presently distracted with solar power satellites
15:14 < eudoxia> i remembered that name but assigned it to the Singularitarian economist
15:14 < eudoxia> (can't remember his name either now)
15:14 < ielo> fenn, do you like btc
15:14 < eudoxia> robin hanson
15:16 <@fenn> kanzure: oh that's good, that was the original strategy for getting L5 up and running
15:16 < eudoxia> on the subject of space
15:16 < eudoxia> i really liked your MIT essay/application, fenn
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15:17 <@fenn> man i can't even remember half of this stuff i wrote
15:19 <@kanzure> are you caught up on backlogs?
15:19 <@fenn> that's an impossible task
15:19 <@kanzure> nothing is impossible with science
15:19 <@kanzure> oh wait maybe that's wrong
15:19 < ielo> wow you 2 are intense
15:19  * fenn postpones backlogs until he receives his brain implant
15:19 < ielo> about #hplusroadmap
15:19 < ielo> thats crazy
15:19 < ielo> i never read backlogs
15:20 < ielo> irc is so full of crap
15:20 <@kanzure> you are missing out
15:20 <@fenn> we used to have a higher SNR in here
15:20 <@kanzure> until i showed up
15:20 < ielo> i feel bad for even infecting the snr
15:20 < ielo> this very sentence
15:20 <@fenn> no, it was reddit-nootropics that did it
15:20 < ielo> and this one too
15:21 < ielo> fenn do you like shannon
15:21 < eudoxia> fenn: if you are referring to that vision-of-the-future-y sentence, i get it
15:21 < eudoxia> i would be embarassed too
15:24 <@fenn> eh? i meant reddit-nootropics brought into #hplusroadmap a bunch of trolls and people who make me-too noises
15:24 < eudoxia> re: man i can't even remember half of this stuff i wrote
15:25 <@fenn> i said that because i was like "what MIT essay?"
15:25 < eudoxia> oh silly me
15:25 < eudoxia> i misread 'remember' as 'believe'
15:25 < eudoxia> jesus christ
15:25 < eudoxia> http://fennetic.net/misc/mit-essay.txt
15:26 <@fenn> i do not remember any god
15:26 <@fenn> <3 yuri gagarin
15:27 <@fenn> oh no, i've been lied to by the communist propaganda apparatus
15:28 <@kanzure> fenn: why were we never able to find anyone willing to review the skdb specification proposals?
15:29 <@kanzure> smari once offered some review; something about breaking into hives because of python. but that wasn't related to architecture or simplifying things.
15:29 <@fenn> i never really understood smari's objections
15:29 <@kanzure> like one obvious recommendation that anyone with a brain should have given was "break things into smaller standards", but nobody even mentioned that. my friends are awful.
15:29 <@fenn> nah it was a fine specification, i think people just didn't understand the need for it
15:30 <@fenn> or they were too busy with their own projects and herding other cats
15:30 -!- SDragon is now known as Sdr
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15:30 -!- SDr [~SDr@ec2-79-125-77-70.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Changing host]
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15:30 <@kanzure> every once in a while i see emails from people that are trying to make a packaging thing (the latest one was thingtracker.net, which was more of a mirror tracking system.. thing), and they all seem to have similar trouble.
15:31 <@fenn> i think until we have the equivalent of an assembler there won't be any use from a package manager
15:32 <@kanzure> a human is an assembler
15:32 <@fenn> a human is also capable of reading plaintext instructions and filling in gaps in their knowlege (or ought to be able to at least)
15:33 < brownies> most humans aren't.
15:33 <@fenn> a competent human*
15:33 <@kanzure> biocurious recently released their "bioprinter" device
15:33 <@kanzure> ..... on instructables. :( :( :(
15:37 -!- CharlieNobody [~Charlie@97-85-243-194.static.stls.mo.charter.com] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"]
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15:39 < eudoxia> hey kanz i contributed a package proposal to my fork of skdb
15:39 <@kanzure> i wonder if i miscalculated how hard it would be to get billy gates to fund replicable lab/shop equipment.
15:39 < eudoxia> i was going to show it to you when it's done
15:40 < eudoxia> it probably sucks though and it will probably hit the same barriers you and fenn did
15:42 <@kanzure> looks like http://www.openbiotech.com/ is back online
15:47 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-53-130-190.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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15:50 < ephialtes480> kanzure - what is syntax for requesting a paper from paperbot here?
15:51 < ephialtes480> http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3790325
15:51 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3790325
15:51 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/683683c421aaa3857474cb4d0290052e.txt
15:52 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdfplus/3790325.pdf
15:52 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/6747c3b8739cce26eeee745de30f4cb3.txt
15:52 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdfplus/3790325.pdf?acceptTC=true
15:52 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/573120c756ed8e1f17e60a31d108eb4b.pdf
15:52 <@kanzure> there you go
15:53 < ephialtes480> I see, accepting the TC is passed as a GET variable...
15:54 <@kanzure> i don't know what TC means
15:54 <@kanzure> i assume they intentionally crippled their http server for some inane reason
15:54 < ephialtes480> terms and conditions.
15:54 < ephialtes480> they added an extra step first time you download
15:56 < ephialtes480> for someone outside the system, the challenge will be to know that ...jstor.org/stable/3790325 should be formatted as ...jstor.org/stable/pdfplus/3790325.pdf?acceptTC=true
15:57 <@kanzure> outside what system
15:57 < ephialtes480> but this could be hardcoded in for that popular database
15:57 <@kanzure> you're welcome to make that change to paperbot https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot
15:57 < ephialtes480> without JSTOR access, there is no link to jstor.org/stable/pdfplus/3790325.pdf?acceptTC=true is not
15:57 <@kanzure> that link doesn't work without access anyway
15:57 <@kanzure> i don't see the problem?
15:58 < ephialtes480> oh, the problem is that if you use the bot
15:58 < ephialtes480> you will only have the former link (which doesn't work)
15:58 <@kanzure> that's why paperbot gives you 683683c421aaa3857474cb4d0290052e.txt so you can investigate what went wrong
15:58 < ephialtes480> but you need the latter link for it to work, which you can only find if you already have access to the doc, no?
15:58 <@kanzure> the latter link was inside the file
15:59 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:00 < ephialtes480> I see. Great. However, that will be a killer for average joes. I'll see if I can learn python (I work in ruby) and play with this, thanks kanzure
16:08 -!- jk4930 [~jk@p5B172241.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:09 < seba-> kanzure, hm, what do you think about this http://seba.eu.org/mag/
16:10 <@kanzure> seba-: i think there are already many existing outlets for non-institutional chemistry
16:11 < seba-> oh
16:11 < seba-> where
16:12 <@kanzure> to be honest, i try to ignore things like instructables, but instructables.
16:12 <@kanzure> various blogs.
16:13 < seba-> yes my point
16:13 <@kanzure> what?
16:13 <@kanzure> i just don't see why a new periodical is needed.. can't you just write blog posts like all the other chemistry bloggers?
16:14 <@kanzure> and you could even aggregate those existing articles.
16:15 < seba-> well this would be an aggregation :)
16:15 -!- EnLilaSko [~Nattzor@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -]
16:15 <@kanzure> i still don't understand. why does it have to be a magazine? magazines have been dying for decades now..
16:17 < seba-> i haven't really 100% decided on the format, it could be just a collection of pdfs, but a magazine looks nicer :)
16:17 < seba-> electronically published
16:17 <@kanzure> there's this thing called css that lets you change what things look like if you hate how it looks
16:19 < seba-> hm, i'll think about it
16:19 <@kanzure> anyway, i think amateur chemistry is important and a good thing
16:20 < seba-> i haven't really settled much in the design and format, i'm now first seeking good enough material for the first edition
16:21 <@kanzure> i think a wiki would be more useful at this point
16:21 < seba-> a few have offered to write something, some already submitted the exact titles, some just various titles and some just said that they will write something :)
16:21 < seba-> oh i've tried a wiki
16:21 < seba-> it failed
16:21 <@fenn> why did it fail?
16:21 <@kanzure> can i see it?
16:21 < seba-> this is my 3rd or 4th attempt
16:21 <@fenn> (and why do you think it will be different this time)
16:21 <@kanzure> show me the wiki.
16:21 < seba-> oh it's down now
16:21 < seba-> it didn't have much
16:21 <@kanzure> well that's why it failed dude.
16:21 < seba-> besides what i wrote
16:22 < seba-> no no
16:22 < seba-> it was online for several years
16:23 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: would it make sense to organize user-specific crap in diyhpluswiki in a users/:name/ set of folders? or is there some already-existing ikiwiki standard for user pages?
16:23 < seba-> fenn, why? i don't really know, i could lie and tell you a few things, but i don't really know.
16:24 <@fenn> please dont put colons in urls
16:24 <@kanzure> what was that science forum i used to like so much? i can't even remember the name.
16:24 <@fenn> sciencemadness?
16:24 <@kanzure> fenn: ":thing" is a way of specifing a variable in a url. in ruby libraries you use this to parse out variables expected in a url.
16:24 <@kanzure> sciencemadness! indeed.
16:25 < seba-> they have this
16:25 < seba-> http://www.sciencemadness.org/member_publications/index.html
16:25 < seba-> but it's bad
16:25 < seba-> not ba
16:25 < seba-> sd
16:25 < seba-> *bad
16:25 < seba-> sorry
16:25 < seba-> i meant dead
16:25 < seba-> lol
16:25 <@fenn> well it's not a wiki
16:26 < seba-> it's not that either imo
16:26 <@fenn> it's not clear how to contribute to it
16:26 <@fenn> i guess you post to the "prepublication" forum
16:26 <@fenn> did i mention i hate forums
16:26 < seba-> it doesn't wokr
16:26 <@kanzure> almost all of the science forums fail
16:26 < seba-> :)
16:27 <@kanzure> i think at this point it is safe to say that forums are the wrong tool for science
16:27 <@kanzure> everyone has tried at this point.
16:27 < seba-> yes
16:27 < seba-> but magazines work for example for electronics
16:27 <@kanzure> haha what
16:28 <@fenn> i guess you're referring to nuts and volts
16:28 < chris_99> elektor sometimes has some pretty cool stuff in
16:28 <@kanzure> p. sure nuts and volts existed long before the interwebs
16:29 <@kanzure> i think amateur chemistry could benefit greatly if there was a group like blue obelisk except more focused on non-institutional things
16:30 < seba-> http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=18125
16:30 <@kanzure> http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/blueobelisk/index.php?title=Main_Page
16:30 < seba-> that was my attempt number 3
16:31 <@kanzure> seba-: journals are the wrong format
16:31 < seba-> yes
16:31 < seba-> i agree :)
16:31 <@kanzure> if your goal was to make a prestigous journal that fits the current paradigm, then making a journal makes sense.
16:31 <@fenn> whatever you do, please make sure to publish it under a copyright that permits redistribution
16:31 < seba-> fenn, of course
16:33 <@kanzure> seba-: chemistry already has a great do-it-yourself tradition. what would you want out of an amateur group specifically?
16:33 <@fenn> "If you want to get people enthusiastic about the idea but you don't have original material to publish, look at some of the nice Prepublication threads and turn them into formatted articles. I would gladly add them to the long-neglected Member Publications section of the site, with a note thanking you for performing the editing and assembly. "
16:33 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:33 < seba-> fenn, yes, that's my plan to do as well
16:34 <@kanzure> to a large extent, cheminformatics is already widely available to amateur chemists (though lots of databases still need to be released)
16:34 <@kanzure> glassware is somewhat simple, but not always obvious and not easy to calibrate or test
16:34 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:35 <@fenn> oh now this just ticks me off, " there are benefits to information being buried in huge/ancient threads though. If it is dangerous/potentially illegal information, having it be only accessable to the few who know the art of research could be a good thing in the big picture..."
16:35 < seba-> kanzure, hm, well i don't know how it's in other countries, but for example here the amateur electronics have a strong community
16:35 <@kanzure> ok so your goal is community?
16:36 <@kanzure> if your goal is community then you should focus on getting hackerspaces to do chemistry projects, i think
16:36 < seba-> kanzure, that's like a higher longterm goal
16:36 <@kanzure> yak shaving
16:36 <@kanzure> inverse yak shaving
16:36 <@kanzure> you're yak shaving but you don't even need to be shaving in the first place
16:36 <@fenn> it's pretty obvious the reason we have so little focus on chemistry as a hobby is the ongoing war on drugs and the collateral damage
16:37 <@kanzure> who is we
16:37 <@fenn> we as in the human race on planet earth early 21st century AD
16:37 < seba-> well yes
16:37 < yashgaroth> also explosives and poisons
16:37 < seba-> but if you can show that you're doing something
16:37 <@kanzure> i don't think that's the reason, many people still do chemistry projects regardless of "the war on drugs"
16:37 <@fenn> nah i don't think explosives is the main reason, given how easy it is to legally acquire explosives already
16:38 <@fenn> my point was that you don't have DEA agents busting down hackerspace doors because they heard someone was playing with an arduino
16:39 < seba-> i think a magazine has some legitimacy in our society
16:39 < seba-> even if in pdf form
16:39 <@kanzure> why is legitimacy important
16:39 <@kanzure> sigh
16:39 < seba-> why?
16:39 <@kanzure> also, if you could show me your wiki, i could possibly host it next to the diybio stuff or something
16:39 < seba-> well if we won't do something about it, amateur chemistry will die
16:39 < seba-> it will die by regulation
16:40 <@kanzure> it sounds like you would feel better making an advocacy organization
16:40 <@fenn> <sarcasm> maybe you should follow the pro-active diybio approach </sarcasm>
16:40 -!- u-metacognition [~metacogni@99-7-58-96.lightspeed.davlca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:40 < seba-> :)
16:40 < seba-> an advocacy group needs something to show
16:41 < seba-> a magazine is something to show to normal people and also nice to read while you're taking a crap
16:41 <@kanzure> blogs are just as nice to read while shitting
16:41 <@kanzure> i think your focus on magazines is antiquated
16:43 < u-metacognition> This is 2013 people look at their smartphones while taking craps, there is no demand for magazines anymore
16:43 < seba-> it wouldn't be a paper magazine
16:43 < seba-> just like a pdf one
16:43 < seba-> :)
16:43 < u-metacognition> Hmmm.
16:43 <@fenn> pdf sucks if you want to do anything besides read it
16:43 < seba-> fenn, like what? :)
16:44 <@kanzure> like editing it
16:44 <@fenn> like, say, reformat it for a different display format (kindle or whatever)
16:44 <@kanzure> or improving it
16:44 < u-metacognition> yea in general I hate pdfs
16:44 < u-metacognition> makes me feel confined
16:44 < seba-> hm
16:44 <@fenn> it's great to have the option to view as a pdf, but not as the only distribution mechanism
16:45 < seba-> yes maybe i should have both
16:45 < seba-> pdf for showing to normal people that we're doing something, for printing, etc.
16:45 <@kanzure> what's wrong with printing html?
16:45 <@fenn> there are plenty of content management systems (joomla for example) that do exactly what you want
16:46 <@kanzure> fenn: shame on you for recommending joomla
16:46 <@kanzure> i would never wish that abomination on anyone.
16:46 < seba-> i won't use joomla ever.
16:46 <@fenn> meh, it's terrible but it is designed for people who think about publishing the way a magazine editor would
16:47 < seba-> i don't know, magazines are nice, usually nicely organized, nice designs, etc. hm
16:47 < seba-> you get to read also stuff you wouldn't normally click
16:47 <@kanzure> hplusroadmap: where the evils of magazines never die :(
16:47 < seba-> and it's usually interesting
16:47 <@fenn> that "nice" is a result of sheer brutal application of human effort
16:47 < seba-> yes
16:48 < seba-> i'm aware of that
16:48 <@kanzure> io9 is supposed to be a magazine too, and look how awful that is
16:48 <@kanzure> and hplusmagazine
16:48 <@fenn> is that why io9 takes forever to load
16:48 <@kanzure> yes, plus the 100s of javascript tracking libraries they pull in
16:48 <@kanzure> theverge is the worst at this (i think their index is >2 MB)
16:49 <@fenn> engadget causes me the most trouble
16:49 <@kanzure> it is funny to run either of those sites while using ghostery. by funny i mean sad.
16:49 < superkuh> I have begun migrating common javascript libraries to a local cache and changing CDN domains to resolve to localhost.
16:49 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:50 < seba-> ok if i for example don't choose a magazine format
16:50 <@kanzure> superkuh: i think someone should be tracking changes to cdn-hosted proprietary libraries so that we can track major changes.
16:50 < seba-> what would you suggest?
16:50 < superkuh> I will consider that as I automate what I am now doing mostly manually.
16:50 <@fenn> kanzure: you could do that and sell the results to the russian mafia (or whoever your customers are these days)
16:51 < seba-> like should i article pop out every month?
16:52 < jrayhawk> kanzure: Don't know of any useful standard.
16:54 < seba-> i would practically want to join all the interesting stuff people publish usually on their websites/blogs/forum posts
16:54 < seba-> into one media
16:55 < seba-> and filter noise out and make it all look nice enough
16:55 <@fenn> seba-: honestly the particular choice of tools doesn't matter that much, as long as you think about future migration to a different platform, maintaining interest in the project, and having a process for handing over responsibility for the project
16:55 <@kanzure> superkuh: this might help, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/ghostery.json
16:56 < seba-> fenn, for the 4th attempt i've decided that i won't start with the format and style, but i'll instead gather first people and articles and then i hope it will come naturally what to do
16:56 < seba-> inso far it's working ok :)
16:57 < superkuh> Thanks.
16:57 <@fenn> seba-: i haven't personally made much use of these things myself, but RSS/atom aggregators and "planets" seem to be what you're describing
16:58 <@fenn> but you'd obviously want to include forum posts as well. there's probably a tool for that too
16:58 <@kanzure> forumburner converts forums to rss.
16:58 <@fenn> but you dont want to forward every single post to your publication
16:58 < seba-> see that's why i've said magazine
16:58 < seba-> a magazine is more strict
16:58 <@kanzure> fenn: most of the planets have a review step, even with rss aggregation.
16:59 < seba-> it chooses what to publish, it has to meet a certain threeshold for quality, it has to be formatted the same
16:59 < seba-> it has sections
16:59 < seba-> etc.
16:59 <@kanzure> but why? all of this sounds completely arbitrary.
16:59 <@fenn> so appoint an editor to do all that
17:00 <@fenn> formatting is not so important as long as it's accessible and technically correct
17:00 <@fenn> you aren't trying to make a robot follow the instructions after all
17:00 <@kanzure> superkuh: the http://www.ghostery.com/remote/update endpoint has json embedded in the page with regular expressions for privacy-violating javascript stuff. but it doesn't give you the exact urls. i guess you could browse around for a while and just find out which urls are loaded and use this as a whitelist to figure out which cdn javascripts you care about.
17:00 <@fenn> there are already various chemical reaction databases out there (availability notwithstanding)
17:03 <@kanzure> seba-: btw, we only sound negative about this because we care so much.
17:04 <@kanzure> amateur chemistry is definitely useful and important, but understanding these things (including what went wrong or why things fail) helps figure out what else to be doing.
17:05 < seba-> yes, i'm just lost on what would be the best thing and how to put in words why i think certain things would be a bad or good idea
17:05 < seba-> :)
17:06 < seba-> but generally amateur chemists lack organisation, community or something similarly formal
17:06 -!- Sebastian_ [48e3889b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.227.136.155] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:07 <@kanzure> seba-: is that bad?
17:08 < seba-> well if you tinker with electronics and buy relays and capacitors and chips, that's totally acceptable
17:08 < seba-> even thou you could be doing a remote trigger for a bomb
17:08 < seba-> but nobody thinks about that
17:08 <@kanzure> but for some reason you think i can't forge my own glass or extract nitrogen from manures?
17:08 <@kanzure> hehe forge
17:08 <@kanzure> blow, i mean.
17:08 <@fenn> snort
17:08 <@fenn> snort your own glass powder, i mean
17:09 < seba-> but if i want to buy sulfuric acid it's an outrage why i need it, even thou i could just put it out of lead-acid batteries if i wanted.
17:10 < seba-> and yes, my objective could be an advocacy group, but it's hard to show to normal people that you're doing something useful
17:10 -!- SebastianCocioba [48e3889b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.227.136.155] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:10 < SebastianCocioba> there we go
17:10 <@fenn> too bad "the right to do science" wasn't included in the US constitution
17:10 < seba-> the hamradio community for example resists enourmous lobbying pressures to release EM spectrum reserverd for them
17:10 <@kanzure> SebastianCocioba: i think i know you from snapgene?
17:11 < SebastianCocioba> porbably! i use it a lot
17:11 < seba-> but if they would decide that sulfuric acid is off the limits to normal people
17:11 < seba-> who would fight that?
17:12 < superkuh> It is already so for many jurisdictions and people in apartments.
17:12 < SebastianCocioba> small world
17:12 < seba-> in germany already practicing amateur chemistry is practically a felony, in texas you have to register glassware
17:12 <@kanzure> SebastianCocioba: ah you are new york botanics
17:12 < seba-> where i live it's not like that, i can buy practically every chemical i want, but that's an exception in the world i guess
17:12 < SebastianCocioba> idk what the dif is between a beaker and a cup. the graduations are crap anyway
17:12 <@kanzure> SebastianCocioba: sometimes it takes me a few minutes to remember people, sorry
17:13 <@kanzure> SebastianCocioba: what does your company do?
17:13 -!- Sebastian_ [48e3889b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.227.136.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
17:13 < SebastianCocioba> sry im new to irc, is the @redname a pm an how would i do similar. i = supernoob
17:13 < seba-> in the UK a few years ago, a hobbiest chemical supplier
17:13 < seba-> was radied by police
17:13 <@kanzure> SebastianCocioba: no, it is just a way to highlight people in an active channel, it is not private
17:14 -!- jk4930 [~jk@p5B172241.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
17:14 < seba-> and all white powders were seized because they could be used for cuting drugs
17:14 <@kanzure> SebastianCocioba: "@" in irc refers to admins
17:14 < seba-> like even stuff like glucose or similar inoccous stuff
17:14 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure
17:14 < SebastianCocioba> my company is plant biotech. i do microprop, transformation services, etc etc. plant stuff.
17:15 < kanzure> SebastianCocioba: what are your prices on your services?
17:15 < seba-> and society sees allowed amateur chemistry more as baking soda + vinegar, practically if you have a chemistry set at home that means that you're a terrorist or a drug cook
17:15 < kanzure> SebastianCocioba: like say i want a hairy root culture to produce some shitty enzyme, is this something you do and how much dough would i toss your way?
17:16 < seba-> if i put antennas on the house, i wouldn't be seen as a spy or terrorist, more as a ham or something
17:16 < SebastianCocioba> depends on the species. im trying to compile a good cost since im just entering the field of actually offering the service. most do it for 500 but im no theif. i charge twice the cost of materials.
17:16 < kanzure> SebastianCocioba: who is included in most? COA labs ?
17:16 < SebastianCocioba> by materials i mean net cost of production, energy, reagents, etc
17:16 < kanzure> erm, COA is the wrong acronym
17:16 < yashgaroth> CRO
17:16 < kanzure> thanks
17:17 < kanzure> fucking acronyms
17:17 < SebastianCocioba> si
17:17 < seba-> also a lot of interesting stuff gets done by amateurs and it gets lost in noise
17:17 < seba-> and 2349234 sources
17:17 < kanzure> SebastianCocioba: sounds like a good price, cool. how's business?
17:18 < seba-> hm
17:18 < seba-> ok i'll end my monologue
17:18 < SebastianCocioba> im sifting through the legal bs to get this on its feet. the company used to just microprop for ppl, i lost grow space so i decided to shift to less space intensive services
17:19 < SebastianCocioba> i have some priv customers but im not online yet with the whole shebang. its tough to ensure u are doing things by the books
17:19 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:21 < SebastianCocioba> so is anyone from the list online now besides you kanzure?
17:21 < kanzure> SebastianCocioba: tons of people. i think you would recognize nmz787 the most though.
17:22 < SebastianCocioba> :)
17:28 < SebastianCocioba> i've been up to my neck in protoplasts for the last 3 weeks. i need a break...
17:29 < kanzure> SebastianCocioba: you could goof off with us
17:29 < kanzure> or possibly help improve the diybio faq? http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq
17:29 < kanzure> it needs lots of work.
17:30 < SebastianCocioba> yay teh goofing!
17:30 < SebastianCocioba> i want to add more to the openwetware plant protocols page
17:30 < SebastianCocioba> its severely underdeveloped
17:31 < SebastianCocioba> but ur right the faq needs some lovin too
17:32 < kanzure> openwetware has seemed a little dead ever since they let go of bill flanagan
17:32 -!- MindtoMatter [266eb429@gateway/web/freenode/ip.38.110.180.41] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:32 < kanzure> MindtoMatter: hello
17:33 < seba-> diybio seems interesting
17:33 < MindtoMatter> Hey all
17:33 < kanzure> seba-: since you seem to like magazines.. check out http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/news
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17:35 < MindtoMatter> DIYbio does seem interesting, but I'm a total armchair observer - My hobby focus goes to additive manufacturing
17:35 < kanzure> MindtoMatter: reprap?
17:35 < MindtoMatter> whatever
17:35 < kanzure> k
17:35 < MindtoMatter> I'm not particular
17:35 < MindtoMatter> Have you seen the Cubespawn program?
17:35 < kanzure> yes, i know james
17:36 < seba-> kanzure does it work?
17:36 < MindtoMatter> Good guy :)
17:36 < kanzure> MindtoMatter: you might be interested in these, then http://heybryan.org/om.html
17:36 < SebastianCocioba> maybe an hplus subdivision for diybio may seem more appropriate. wouldn't want to bore ppl with our wet-lab banter :P
17:36 < kanzure> MindtoMatter: james used to post to the openmanufacturing group, which has lots of related projects
17:37 < MindtoMatter> I think he still does
17:37 < seba-> hm
17:37 < kanzure> SebastianCocioba: haha, it's not boring at all. wetlab is extremely important.
17:37 < MindtoMatter> Lot of activity on that project these days, great to see
17:37 < kanzure> MindtoMatter: what has happened recently?
17:37 < MindtoMatter> bunch of new blood has gotten involved over the last 4 or so months
17:37 < kanzure> yes but what have they done?
17:38 < MindtoMatter> Well not anything conclusive, but it's substantially more activity and eyes on the topic than when I checked in 6 months before that
17:38 < MindtoMatter> I feel like the current environment makes it difficult to do anything, much less create a new type of modular open standard
17:39 < seba-> i think i get lost in these websites
17:39 < MindtoMatter> so I commend action even if it doesn't seem to generate results
17:39 < SebastianCocioba> my Up! mini needs dusting...gotta love additive mfg :)
17:39 < seba-> maybe i'm just retarded
17:39 < kanzure> seba-: what do you mean lost? where are you trying to go?
17:42 < seba-> http://hplusmagazine.com/ it's this the magazine?
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17:45 < kanzure> seba-: it is awful and you should ignore it
17:45 < seba-> everything is so unstructured
17:45 < seba-> hm
17:45 -!- panax [~panax@68.200.160.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
17:45 < kanzure> i regret helping them
17:45 < seba-> i'll seriously think about the format, it was insightful talking with you
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17:46 < kanzure> What: hi
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17:47 < MindtoMatter> Why do you regret helping them?
17:48 < kanzure> MindtoMatter: i thought i could help the organization become more focused on engineering projects, so i was hired as director of R&D
17:48 < kanzure> but it turns out that there are organizational reasons that they only do conferences/promos/magazines instead of technology projects
17:48 < seba-> i have this idea, vision in my head, how it should look like
17:48 < seba-> i just can't put it into words
17:49 < MindtoMatter> I think you did
17:49 < MindtoMatter> not compatable
17:49 < kanzure> MindtoMatter: anyway it ended up with them threatening lawsuits against me.
17:49 < MindtoMatter> yeah
17:49 < MindtoMatter> It happens
17:49 < MindtoMatter> ;)
17:49 < kanzure> MindtoMatter: i don't really see why an organization focused on the future would buy a magazine for itself. that doesn't make sense.. magazines have been dying for years.
17:49 < MindtoMatter> Things eventually sort themselves out? or are you still on poor terms
17:50 < kanzure> still on poor terms; it doesn't matter though. it's not like a lot was lost in this.
17:50 < MindtoMatter> kanzure: sometimes smart people do irrational things
17:50 < kanzure> i made no claims of smartness
17:50 < MindtoMatter> Well
17:50 < MindtoMatter> spending money on something can make it very important it be viewed as smart
17:50 < MindtoMatter> capital has a sort of momentum about it
17:50 < MindtoMatter> so if they spent money on a magazine
17:51 < MindtoMatter> you can see why they like it :)
17:51 < kanzure> so far the biohacking community has been tremendously more productive than the humanityplus/hplusmagazine organization has ever been
17:51 < MindtoMatter> sure
17:51 < MindtoMatter> but we're still so early in all these things, it's like arguing over centimeters when theres still miles to go
17:52 < kanzure> what?
17:52 < kanzure> do you know humanityplus?
17:52 < MindtoMatter> I do not
17:52 < MindtoMatter> but I follow a bunch of communities
17:52 < MindtoMatter> everyone is on the same path, loosely
17:52 <@fenn> god i hope not
17:52 < kanzure> i don't think it's wise to assume that i'm arguing about anything.
17:52 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:53 < MindtoMatter> I was just referring to your comment on the productivity of biohacking vs. HP
17:53 < MindtoMatter> its relative
17:53 < kanzure> it is not relative at all
17:53 < MindtoMatter> than I withdraw the point
17:54 < kanzure> humanityplus is theoretically interested in biohacking, and they used to espouse lots of rhetoric about "continuous self-improvement" and self-education, but none of them bothered to learn the biology necessary to do the things they wanted to do..
17:54 <@fenn> the thing is, some people see propaganda, media, PR stunts, political lobbying etc to be "progress", and some people don't
17:55 < kanzure> fenn: did you see the email from anders sandberg recently?
17:55 <@fenn> no, what's the gist of it?
17:56 < kanzure>  On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 9:26 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote:
17:56 < kanzure> > cosmological re-engineering of Dyson and Tipler. The key thing was the
17:56 < kanzure> > realization that the universe is enormous, yet there exist actions that
17:56 < kanzure> > allow you to leverage things to ever greater scales. So I just set out to
17:56 < kanzure> > make myself into some kind of scientist-hero able to do that, pursuing
17:56 < kanzure> > self-enhancement, learning and networking. I just wish more people did that
17:56 < kanzure> > kind of attempted life -shaping.
17:56 < kanzure> and i replied "But didn't you ....settle?"
17:56 < kanzure> and then he replied with this long diatribe about how hopeless everything is, or something
17:56 < kanzure> anyway, it was extremely disappointing
17:56 < yashgaroth> haha wow
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17:57 <@fenn> so his approach failed due to things beyond his control
17:58 < kanzure> fenn: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2013-January/075752.html
17:58 <@fenn> i mean we barely even have a functioning space program, it's a bit much to be working on dyson spheres
17:58 < kanzure> but his other goals were things like whole brain emulation, which desperately needs people to be contributing work to (especially open source additions)
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17:59 <@fenn> but he himself estimates it won't be practical for another 25 years
17:59 <@fenn> for reasons having nothing to with brains
18:00 < seba-> i'm thinking that i'm maybe not the right person for what i've set up to do, i don't even know exactly what i want to do in words lol
18:00 < kanzure> which part of it, hardware?
18:00 <@fenn> computing costs mostly
18:00 < kanzure> yes, and? markram just got a few billion or something.
18:01 <@fenn> you could yoke all the computers in the world to your brain simulation and the result would be a human running in slow-time
18:01 < kanzure> so?
18:01 <@fenn> meanwhile they're self-replicating for free
18:01 <@fenn> so it's not much of an advantage
18:01 < kanzure> also, non-whole brain emulation is still useful
18:02 <@fenn> we already have non-whole brain emulation
18:02 < kanzure> not quite, we are missing lots of details hidden in academic journals
18:02 <@fenn> aroo?
18:02 < kanzure> there are many different types of neurons and microcircuits that make up the brain
18:03 < kanzure> while you could model them with basic spiking neurons, that's really not what's going on..
18:03 < kanzure> i mean, the basic spiking models do not capture the other details
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18:03 < MindtoMatter> So i'm curious, are you guys familiar with bisphenol-A?
18:03 <@fenn> so did markram ever publish any code? or is he sitting on it hoping it will do him some good
18:04 <@fenn> MindtoMatter: that is really not relevant
18:04 < kanzure> as far as i know, his work is sitting on top of NEURON (maybe) and it's not open source (definitely)
18:04 <@fenn> MindtoMatter: you might as well ask about climate change or gun control, sheesh
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18:04 < MindtoMatter> @fenn: it's relevant because I'm involved in a project related to it doing a bunch of testing, and you're a different crowd than I generally interact with
18:05 < seba-> MindtoMatter, what about BPA?
18:05 < MindtoMatter> it was a broad question
18:05 < seba-> then yes
18:05 < MindtoMatter> as a pervasive environmental estrogen pervasive in all forms of food packaging?
18:06 < kanzure> fenn: whole brain emulation is not the only way that anders could be doing things. i'm just all around disappointed with how he has aged.
18:06 < MindtoMatter> excuse the first pervasive
18:06 <@fenn> MindtoMatter: do you think "transhumanism" means feeding all the starving children in africa?
18:06 < MindtoMatter> no
18:06 < kanzure> fenn: MindtoMatter is in here because of diybio, i think
18:06 < MindtoMatter> yes
18:06 < kanzure> fenn: different contexts
18:07 < seba-> MindtoMatter, it's not in all
18:07 < kanzure> i assume this means you're building spectrometers? or what sort of testing equipment?
18:07 < MindtoMatter> seba: what is it not in?
18:08 <@fenn> if he wants to make an accessible/cheap test for BPA that's cool, but i just dont want to drown in discussions of policy and economics
18:08 < MindtoMatter> No, I'm not hardware
18:08 < kanzure> if you're not hardware then what are you?
18:08 < MindtoMatter> We're probably going to run a kickstarter campaign to do a bulk test buy actually and try to get the per test cost down to $100 at part per billion scale
18:08 < MindtoMatter> But we partner with labs for that
18:09 <@fenn> some kind of estrogen receptor hooked up to an indicator protein in a genetically engineered e. coli would be neat
18:09 <@fenn> $0.01 per test
18:09 < MindtoMatter> Ikanzure: My background is environementally friendly foodservice packaging
18:09 < kanzure> or less
18:09 < MindtoMatter> When we first starting sourcing tests last year, some labs quoted at 3200/test
18:10 < MindtoMatter> we eventually found someone who charged us 500 per test
18:10 < MindtoMatter> and then talked them down to I think 300
18:10 < kanzure> science exchange could probably hook you up with the people to engineer an ecoli with that test
18:10 < kanzure> or you could learn which genes to whack together and do it yourself
18:10 < MindtoMatter> I'd love any contacts you can recommend
18:11 < MindtoMatter> Anyhow, I'm still waiting for a response seba?  What food packaging is BPA not in
18:11 < kanzure> fenn's idea is actually highly realistic
18:11 < MindtoMatter> my email is adamlevinemobile@gmail.com, i'd love to talk about working on it
18:12 < MindtoMatter> :) very much looking for partners with complimentary skillsets for this project
18:12 < MindtoMatter> Anyhow, to answer my own question - BPA is in literally almost every piece of food packaging that goes out
18:12 <@fenn> hooray.
18:12 < kanzure> it sounds like you're already committed to fundraising to pay a testing lab
18:12 < kanzure> so i don't see the point
18:12 <@fenn> phthalates rain down from the atmosphere in all urban areas on the planet
18:12 < seba-> i'm sure you can find a cheap test for BPA
18:12 < MindtoMatter> we haven't committed to anything, we're looking for the best way to actually get this shit out of the system
18:13 < kanzure> why
18:13 < MindtoMatter> cheap and highly accurate to the part per trillion is the issue
18:13 <@fenn> phytoestrogens are prevalent in a wide variety of foods themselves, regardless of packaging
18:13 < MindtoMatter> I can link you to some studies if you'd like
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18:13 <@fenn> i've read lots of studies, i agree it's "a bad thing"
18:14 <@fenn> but there are other bad things out there that are much worse, like dying for instance
18:14 < seba-> why ppt
18:14 < MindtoMatter> the stimulus package spent 30 million on 100 or so studies in the last 2 years, they're pretty compelling stuff
18:14 < MindtoMatter> because it's active at ppt
18:14 < MindtoMatter> and detrimental
18:14 < MindtoMatter> it's not the dose,  it's the persistent exposure
18:14 < MindtoMatter> specifically at specific times of development
18:15 < seba-> the problem is that if you're pregnant
18:15 < MindtoMatter> but it effects virtually every group, it's nuts
18:15 < ephialtes480> kanzure - your paperbot, the git hub papers.py - does this code just get dumped in together with a phenny bot somehow? With a zotero server running? I'm trying to figure out how you connected the pieces together
18:15 < seba-> it's comulative
18:15 < seba-> :)
18:15 < seba-> otherwisee it's not
18:15 < seba-> afaik
18:15 < MindtoMatter> not really seba
18:15 < kanzure> ephialtes480: yep that's right
18:15 < seba-> MindtoMatter, the biggest exposure to BPA is probably water heaters and thermal printer paper
18:15 < kanzure> ephialtes480: https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot#readme
18:16 < MindtoMatter> seba: you think that's true, but it's not
18:16 < MindtoMatter> it's in recycled paper
18:16 < MindtoMatter> because the reciepts are recycled
18:16 < MindtoMatter> the whole system has been concentrating BPA for the last 10 years
18:16 < seba-> recycled paper?
18:16 < seba-> who uses that
18:16 < MindtoMatter> yes
18:16 < seba-> lol
18:16 < MindtoMatter> do you use paper bags?
18:16 < MindtoMatter> do you use paper napkins?
18:16 < seba-> no
18:17 < seba-> no
18:17 < MindtoMatter> toilet paper?
18:17 < seba-> yes, but not recycled
18:17 < MindtoMatter> toilet paper is almost all 40%, they just don't say it
18:17 < seba-> BASTARDS
18:17 < MindtoMatter> I have a study you can see that tested like 40 varieties and found BPA in 92%
18:17 < seba-> i want virgin toilet paper
18:17 < ephialtes480> kanzure, Thanks, I saw your readme but it didn't say much on how exactly the pieces fit together. I assume papers.py methods get added to the phenny script. I'll give it a shot
18:17 < seba-> what does that mean found BPA
18:17 < seba-> look
18:17 < seba-> you can find BPA everywhere
18:17 < seba-> if you're searching for ppt
18:18 < MindtoMatter> yes
18:18 < MindtoMatter> thats because we produce 6 billion tons of it yearly
18:18 < MindtoMatter> crazy huh
18:18 < kanzure> ephialtes480: when you install phenny, you are given a ~/.phenny/config.py that you have to edit. you edit it to point to your modules directory (which paperbot provides).
18:18 < seba-> in heated water in PC you actually get micrograms of BPA
18:18 < seba-> not ppt
18:18 < MindtoMatter> only has a half life of 6 hours
18:18 < seba-> probably my biggest exposure to BPA is pure BPA
18:18 < MindtoMatter> I had no idea that polycarbonite is literally BPA with benzene to bond
18:18 < ephialtes480> kanzure - excelllent, seeing that now as I study phenny code in more detail.
18:18 < seba-> from epoxy glue
18:18 < MindtoMatter> yep
18:19 < kanzure> ephialtes480: the phenny code isn't that great.
18:19 < seba-> benzene to bond?
18:19 < MindtoMatter> it's slightly more complex than that, but the constituent componant is straight up BPA
18:19 < MindtoMatter> can't make polycarbonite without it
18:19 < seba-> i know how PC is
18:19 < seba-> well it's a polyester
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18:19 < seba-> so if you heat it
18:19 < seba-> it hydrolizes
18:20 < seba-> and you get free BPA
18:20 < seba-> also acids/bases etc.
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18:20 < MindtoMatter> We tested Chipotle's napkin and found 450 parts per billion of BPA in a single napkin
18:20 < MindtoMatter> newspapers are 70-100% recycled paper
18:20 < seba-> that's nothing
18:20 < MindtoMatter> lol
18:20 < seba-> 450 ppb
18:20 < seba-> no really
18:20 < MindtoMatter> the FDA safe is 50ppb, and studies show effect right on through .025 ppb
18:20 < seba-> heated water in PC has like ppm
18:20 < seba-> not ppb
18:21 < MindtoMatter> I agree, that's even worse
18:21 < seba-> http://www.ffa.uni-lj.si/fileadmin/datoteke/Knjiznica/diplome/2011/Peterec_Andreja_dipl_nal_2011.pdf
18:21 < MindtoMatter> You can take a look at the study database I'm compiling, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoPQ9D7Ob3GDdHR0d2pkU09KSUdmYzlFVXdULV8yM2c&usp=sharing
18:21 < seba-> average PC water heater
18:21 < seba-> gives 1.4 ug/L
18:22 < MindtoMatter> I already agreed, that's also very unsafe
18:22 < seba-> and dose is comulative if you're pregnant
18:22 < MindtoMatter> why would you citing ppm make me feel better when I'm concerned about smaller quantities, like ppb in addition to larger quantities/
18:22 < MindtoMatter> yep
18:23 < MindtoMatter> kanzure: Thanks for the link earlier to your writing on toolbook, this looks very applicable to my interests.l
18:23 < kanzure> that's eric hunting
18:23 < kanzure> sadly i am not eric hunting
18:23 < MindtoMatter> well theres always tomorrow
18:24 < seba-> in water here was 2.1 to 23.6 ng/L
18:24 < seba-> municipal water
18:24 < kanzure> MindtoMatter: those discussions are from http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing
18:24 < seba-> average was 8.8 ng/L
18:24 < MindtoMatter> Thank you kanzure, I will check it out
18:25 < seba-> MindtoMatter, in those things where you get water from a "baloon", the concentrations were from 10 ng/L to 290 ng/L
18:25 < seba-> MindtoMatter, average 93 ng/L
18:26 < MindtoMatter> What do you think about that?
18:27 < seba-> PET bottled water had around 6-7 ng/L
18:27 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ
18:28 -!- kanzure changed the topic of ##hplusroadmap to: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA | http://gnusha.org/logs http://diyhpl.us/wiki http://groups.google.com/group/diybio | banned by the Federal Death Administration
18:28 < seba-> i don't see such a big problem as you do
18:30 < seba-> MindtoMatter, besides the limit 50 ppb is 50 ug
18:30 < seba-> now the biggest polutant here was the water heater
18:30 < seba-> with 1.4 ug/L
18:31 < seba-> you need to drink 35 L to get to 50 ug
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18:34 < seba-> hm i think i know more about BPA that i thought
18:34 < seba-> lol
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18:50 <@kanzure> hmm i should learn how to use lldb at some point (the llvm debugger)
18:50 <@kanzure> http://lldb.llvm.org/
18:50 <@kanzure> what why does the llvm project use svn?
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19:05 < SebastianCocioba> pew pew
19:06 <@kanzure> ow
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19:30 <@kanzure> eleitl: have you picked an inventory thing yet?
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19:44 <@kanzure> "The article mentions the American Historical Review as having annual (editorial) costs of about $500k [1]"
19:44 <@kanzure> http://blog.historians.org/news/1734/aha-statement-on-scholarly-journal-publishing
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21:09 < nmz787> MindtoMatter: why did you think Chipotle napkins would have BPA in them?
21:10 < yashgaroth> I imagine it was because they contain recycled thermal receipt paper, which contains bpa
21:10 <@kanzure> recycled pa--
21:10 <@kanzure> yeah ok
21:10 < yashgaroth> booya
21:11 < nmz787> huh
21:11 < nmz787> so that means they'll keep sterile better too, then, righ?
21:11 < yashgaroth> obviously the solution is not to recycle anything
21:12 < nmz787> how do i just reinforce the BPA detox systems?
21:12 < yashgaroth> well it's probably just traditional renal excretion
21:12 < nmz787> was the metabolism talked about eariler? jrayhawk might know how BPA is detoxed
21:13 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: what are the margins on CROs?
21:13 < yashgaroth> no idea, depends on the line of work and ability to fuck employees
21:13 -!- barriers [~barriers@unaffiliated/barriers] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
21:13 <@kanzure> let's assume no employees are harmed in the operation of this CRO
21:13 < jrayhawk> http://www.google.com/search?q=stage+liver+detox
21:14 < yashgaroth> well I ain't worked at one directly, but current unnamed company is definitely under 50%
21:14 < yashgaroth> and it's technically a CRO, albeit a GMP one
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21:14 < yashgaroth> thanks to glorious free market
21:15 < yashgaroth> idk how transcriptics makes their money, aside from 'robits!'
21:15 <@kanzure> i thought they make money from molecular cloning
21:16 <@kanzure> also they don't have to be profitable because they have venture funding at the moment
21:16 < yashgaroth> I mean their supposed profit margins or w/e
21:16 < yashgaroth> that may be a large factor
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21:17 < yashgaroth> however your average 'antibodies for $' company makes a shit-ton more than GMP does, I mean they still charge thousands per milligram
21:18 <@kanzure> yeah i've been wondering about just doing a front on top of chinese antibody production
21:18 <@kanzure> with some "value-add" of some sort that i can't fathom
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21:19 < yashgaroth> shipping costs might add quite a bit, and you'd have to strictly obfuscate that since no one wants their primo sequences falling into the PRC's hands
21:20 < yashgaroth> not to mention recouping equipment costs, since that stuff doesn't get cheaper overseas
21:21 < yashgaroth> while I'm sure knockoff chinese 'centrofugers' are top notch, I don't even know if someone there makes them
21:21 < yashgaroth> reagents might be cheaper though
21:22 < sarav> hi
21:22 < yashgaroth> it's mostly a labor issue, but let's be honest unless you need a PhD to troubleshoot a tricky sequence the labor barely requires training
21:22 < yashgaroth> hello sarav
21:22 <@kanzure> i'm also not sure how flooded the antibody market is
21:23 < yashgaroth> everyone and their grad school buddy is starting one
21:23 <@kanzure> ah.
21:23 < yashgaroth> amgen lays you off? start an antibody company with your friend who got laid off from GSK
21:24 < yashgaroth> not that I have any market data or anything, that's just word on the street
21:24 <@kanzure> makes sense.
21:25 < yashgaroth> best bet is to throw some bullshit up for angel funding about crowdsourcing democratized disruptive argh my brain
21:25 <@kanzure> that's not a good bet
21:25 < yashgaroth> it's not like thiel or cuban have enforcer thugs, right?
21:25 <@kanzure> huh?
21:26 < yashgaroth> you know, if you don't deliver a product and instead just buy cocaine with the funding
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21:28 < yashgaroth> like what ubiome is totally not gonna do
21:28 <@kanzure> jessica richman has been spamming everything about that
21:28 <@kanzure> ugh
21:28 < yashgaroth> jojack had some choice words, let me tell you
21:29 <@kanzure> i've often thought of programming an irc bot to speak like jojack in his absence
21:29 <@kanzure> he can be modeled with a simple markov chain model
21:29 <@kanzure> "fucking ubiome, got almost $300k from fucking indiegogo"
21:30 <@kanzure> "i know the founders and they are losers"
21:30 <@kanzure> "highly unlikely that they will deliver anything but cocaine"
21:30 <@kanzure> or something.. i have lost my touch.
21:30 < yashgaroth> "eri gentry is a schmoozing cunt and randal koene is a sex addict"
21:31 <@kanzure> wasn't eri supposed to be involved in genomera or something
21:31 <@kanzure> what happened with that
21:31 < yashgaroth> she's in fucking everything soon as she gets the chance
21:31 <@kanzure> and wasn't randal married to like 4 people simultaneously?
21:31 < yashgaroth> quantified self at the moment
21:31 < yashgaroth> randal is knee-deep in bad relationship decisions
21:32 <@kanzure> he took down his confession :(
21:32 < yashgaroth> the internet remembers
21:32 < yashgaroth> anyway, something along the lines of how eri would be constantly shirking duties at her latest latch-on to social climb and do interviews
21:35 < yashgaroth> oh crap I forgot there's a bunch of random new diybio people in the channel
21:35 <@kanzure> hahah
21:35 <@kanzure> the truth shall set you free
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22:51 <@kanzure> underscor: welcome back
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23:26 <@kanzure> fenn: any objections to starting to buy parts for the laser cutter?
23:34 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
23:35 <@kanzure> cyborg advocacy http://www.cyborgfoundation.com/
23:37 <@kanzure> oh look, they even bothered to post source code (to dropbox, bleh)
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--- Log closed Sat Feb 02 00:00:48 2013