--- Log opened Sat Feb 23 00:00:08 2013
00:12 < brownies> kanzure: used what within the past month?
00:20 <@kanzure> opencv
00:22 < brownies> ahh
00:22 < brownies> i actually haven't. all of my CV work was done using the in-house lib we had at... that one place.
00:23 < brownies> and it was a long time ago.
00:23 <@kanzure> oh, i thought you were doing opencv things recently. something robotic.
00:23 <@kanzure> or at least pretending to maybe be assembling some of those parts together.
00:24 < brownies> i got as far as making a parts list and picking out what software stack i'd use... then i got distracted by startup things
00:25 < brownies> i'm still a little shocked that Willow Garage folded
00:26 <@kanzure> nope, it hasn't folded
00:26 <@kanzure> http://www.willowgarage.com/blog/2013/02/11/willow-garage-changing
00:26 <@kanzure> "Willow Garage has decided to enter the world of commercial opportunities with an eye to becoming a self-sustaining company. This is an important change to our funding model."
00:28 < brownies> oh that is interesting.
00:28 < brownies> that post is still worryingly short. and it doesn't mitigate the rumors i saw of layoffs.
00:28 <@kanzure> the layoff rumors might still be true.
00:28 < brownies> kanzure: wtf, though? what was their business model before? how did they survive for the last 5 years?
00:29 <@kanzure> charisma and burritos?
00:29 <@kanzure> not sure.
00:31 < brownies> kanzure: wikipedia doesn't really illuminate much either
00:31 < brownies> my best guess is "DARPA grant money + the largesse of early google employees"
00:51 < nmz787> what did willow garage do?
00:51 < nmz787> did they just host opencv?
00:52 < nmz787> or develop it too?
00:52 < nmz787> that's all i've heard of them for, opencv downloads and docs
00:56 <@kanzure> they also did ROS and lots of robots
00:58 < brownies> openCV, ROS, PR2, and some other spinoffs
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03:01 < nmz787> i don't know what ROS or PR2 is
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07:24 < eudoxia> oh shit there's a possible gunman at MIT
07:27 < ThomasEgi> who you gonna call.... ghost busters!
07:27 < ThomasEgi> or the pizza delivery service
07:28 < eudoxia> >Scene is clear. Call unfounded. No threat to public safety in #CambMA #MIT
07:28 < eudoxia> thank you cambridge police department twitter feed
07:28 < eudoxia> fuck i was already worried every kill would push the h+ future ~2 years into the future
07:30 < eudoxia> >Hearing reports of the shooter being taken down by a grad student with a "prototype plasma weapon". Improbable I know, but this is MIT after all.
07:30 < eudoxia> >At MIT? An ordinary firearm? Aha ha ha ha ha! Anything less that a photon laser will be vaporized by freshmen.
07:30 < eudoxia> hahahaha oh the comments
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09:47 <@kanzure> hrm. http://www.nirgoldshlager.com/2013/02/how-i-hacked-facebook-oauth-to-get-full.html
09:56 < brownies> kanzure: is that 0day? or did he responsibly disclose first?
09:57 <@kanzure> he disclosed it i think
09:59 < brownies> it's hard to tell. damn his broken english.
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10:54 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2010/03/04/rspb.2010.0001.short
10:54 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Atmospheric%20oxygen%20level%20and%20the%20evolution%20of%20insect%20body%20size.pdf
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11:04 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.springerlink.com/content/h348734770442854/
11:04 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/395b02db5127aa6cf2fe78ae28a7d2d4.txt
11:04 <@kanzure> pfft.
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12:01 < yashgaroth> so kanzure how would you feel about doing a prototype dna synthesizer with a liquid handling robot and multi-well plates instead of microfluidicz
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12:04 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: pretty good
12:05 < yashgaroth> ok cool, because we'll have liquid handling robots and/or converted 3d printer assemblies at the lab, and 8000 wells isn't unforseeable with 384-well plates
12:05 <@kanzure> not sure how i feel about microwellarrayplates though. you can be a lot more sloppy with just 8x8 test tubes or something.
12:06 < yashgaroth> sure but when you've got thousands of wells...and even 3d printing heads have at least a millimeter of resolution
12:06 <@kanzure> accurate liquid handling on a microarray might be slightly more difficult, is my point.
12:06 < yashgaroth> oh not microarrays, these are well plates
12:07 <@kanzure> ok.
12:07 < yashgaroth> like dis http://www.thermoscientificbio.com/uploadedImages/Products/PCR_Related_Products/PCR_Plastics/ab-1384.jpg
12:08 < yashgaroth> I mean for super-initial testing of the enzymes and reactions, sure we can use a few ep tubes and mix by hand
12:08 < yashgaroth> but if we end up having to wait for microfluidics to catch up, this might work well enough
12:10 <@kanzure> so uh, i know this is a tough topic for you, but have you inventoried the liquid handlers you were given yet?
12:10 < yashgaroth> heh well we have two mendelmax's, and two real liquid handlers...I don't know how to assay them for functionality, and one seems to be a semi-homemade setup
12:11 < yashgaroth> I can't just go wander around the lab yet, since jojack has The One Key and is always traveling
12:11 <@kanzure> this is why you should learn lock picking
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12:11 < yashgaroth> the parking lot is where local police like to hang out for donut breaks though
12:12 <@kanzure> it would be nice if you could either get the model names and numbers, or any sort of barcodes or version numbers, from the bodies of the devices. soemtimes these are on the back, or inside a stupid panel.
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12:12 <@kanzure> *sometimes
12:12 < yashgaroth> now that I'm on the 'equipment team' it will be my first priority in general, next time we have a meeting I'm doing that
12:13 < yashgaroth> it's not like the handler needs to be super fast or anything, each reaction will take a few minutes, so even sterilizing the head in between, all it needs is <1mm repeatable resolution
12:14 < yashgaroth> anyway we have jcline we can do anything
12:15 <@kanzure> he will try to convince you to use perl, you must resist this as much as possible
12:15 <@kanzure> nah not really, let him write it.
12:16 < yashgaroth> works for me
12:22 <@kanzure> http://dsp.stackexchange.com/questions/374/river-detection-in-text
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13:22 <@kanzure> Grognor: hi
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13:24 < Grognor> I perceive that this channel has an ethos of doing things rather than just writing all the time, but I don't know if there is anything I can do that is actually useful
13:25 < Grognor> so I'm sort of requesting suggestions
13:27 < yashgaroth> what are you good at
13:27 < Grognor> my resources are: lots of time, that's about it. I'm homeless and jobless at the moment, so I don't really have money or
13:27 < Grognor> I don't have very many skills
13:27 < Grognor> http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/594240 this is the closest thing I can come to impressiveness, currently
13:28 < Grognor> it'd be nice to know if there is a skill I can acquire from a (series of) textbook(s) that would inevitably be useful enough to get a job, or not, I don't think I necessarily need a job, but something, you know?
13:28 <@kanzure> do you have a computer?
13:28 < Grognor> yes
13:29 < Grognor> I haven't lurked/logspotted enough to know this channel's consensus opinion on pirating but I at least know about libgen.info
13:29 <@kanzure> write software.
13:31 < Grognor> I guess that's the default option for people who use irc, but it's not available to me
13:32 <@kanzure> because you don't have a computer?
13:33 < Grognor> because my brain has no innate programming skill module and refuses to install one and I know you're not going to believe me and you're probably going to say something about how I haven't tried hard enough but for god's sake don't because I've had that conversation a thousand times and it really gets on my nerves by now
13:33 <@kanzure> no i happen to not believe in trying hard enough
13:34 <@kanzure> because http://archive.autistics.org/library/inertia.html
13:36 < Grognor> it's not a bad suggestion inherently, just inapplicable to me. i'd appreciate others, even other obvious ones because I have not thought of any at all
13:38 < jrayhawk> if it helps, i despise writing software and thus resort to supporting roles for programmers
13:38 < jrayhawk> Quantified Self-type stuff is also reasonably productive.
13:38 < Grognor> maybe I should use that excuse in the future
13:39 < jrayhawk> Hypothesis formation/experimentation/publishing a la Seth Roberts and friends.
13:39 < Grognor> I signed up for the first round of "Soylent" trials
13:39 < jrayhawk> oh neat
13:39 < Grognor> things like drugs and Zeos cost money, which isn't really one of my available resources
13:40 < Grognor> that's worth thinking about anyway, though, I think
13:40 < nmz787> Zeos?
13:41 < nmz787> kanzure: i can't find a definition for the term bsearching
13:41 < nmz787> brute force searching?
13:41 <@kanzure> probably means binary searching
13:41 < nmz787> it was in context of hacing
13:41 < nmz787> hacking*
13:41 < nmz787> ahh
13:41 <@kanzure> nobody calls it bsearching
13:41 < jrayhawk> kanzure: what other support roles besides hardware/networking/system administration are useful to programmers?
13:42 < jrayhawk> Bug triage/knowledge base/community management stuff, maybe.
13:42 < Grognor> the thing that measures your brain while you sleep http://www.myzeo.com/sleep/
13:42 < jrayhawk> huh, neat
13:43 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: photoshop wizards, or the better kind that can figure out how to convert psds to svg
13:43 < Grognor> gwern's drug experiments used them, usually
13:43 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: cad modeling stuff. there's a lot of stuff that just doesn't have brlcad/opencascade/openscad/implicitcad representations yet.
13:43 < nmz787> kanzure: what are ACs in that article?
13:44 <@kanzure> nmz787: which article?
13:44 < nmz787> the inertia
13:44 <@kanzure> autistic something, i'm sure.
13:44 < jrayhawk> Seems like we should have a list of these sorts of skills somewhere for people who accuse you of being hostile towards non-programmers.
13:45 < nmz787> Grognor: what/who is gwern?
13:45 < jrayhawk> Oh yeah, statistics and signal analysis are also useful, but those are bordering on programming skills.
13:45 <@kanzure> gwern is just some dude that hangs out in #lesswrong posting quotes from blogs
13:45 <@kanzure> he also likes anime and eliezer fanfic or something.
13:45 <@kanzure> ladies, he's available.
13:46 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: another thing that is useful is consolidating information in http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/
13:46 < Grognor> he writes extremely long essays that quantitatively analyze topics that he figured wouldn't pass the notability test on wikipedia and also he is a fucking asshole who I'd probably kill given the chance
13:47 < klafka> LOL
13:47 < klafka> math and statistics
13:47 < klafka> biotech
13:47 <@kanzure> if anything the reason to kill gwern is because of his refusal to do anything but write, not because of any asshole trait.
13:47 < Grognor> he does self-experimentation, which jrayhawk just said is a useful thing
13:47 <@kanzure> i suppose he pops a lot of pills, which is not writing. but those pills don't seem to cause much except more writing?
13:48 < klafka> self experimentation of what?
13:48 <@kanzure> nootropics. same old same old.
13:49 < Grognor> but unlike most people he had the mathematical chutzpah to do statistics on the data he acquired from subjective assessments and zeo stuff
13:49 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: i think cad stuff is a pretty good answer.
13:49 < Grognor> and managed to double-blind himself
13:49 <@kanzure> chutzpah is not how math works
13:49 < klafka> but um 1 person isn't a big enough sample size
13:49 < klafka> also you introduce new variables when you 'double blind' yourself
13:50 <@kanzure> klafka: "n=1 but it's the only 1 that matters" haha. reading his article is probably better if you want to criticize his math, since you can look at his claims directly.
13:50 < klafka> LOL
13:50 < klafka> i have enough things to waste time on
13:50 < klafka> thanks
13:57 < nmz787> CAD is pretty artsy
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14:07 < jrayhawk> Testing hypotheses has to start somewhere.
14:09 <@kanzure> there are some hypotheses that are easier to test than others
14:09 <@kanzure> "consumption of whatchamafuckit will increase my blood pressure" is pretty easy to test.
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14:12 < EnLilaSko> paperbot: http://www.nature.com.sci-hub.org/nrn/journal/v11/n7/full/nrn2867.html
14:12 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/myescience.pdf
14:12 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v11/n7/full/nrn2867.html
14:12 < paperbot> HTTP 401 unauthorized http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v11/n7/pdf/nrn2867.pdf
14:13 < EnLilaSko> I love you for creating paperbot kanzure
14:13 <@kanzure> sadly we don't have access to this paper
14:14 < EnLilaSko> Meh, still an awesome bot
14:16 < jrayhawk> klafka: The important part is not the generalizability of the result, but the verifiability/falsifiability of the result. Suboptimal data is still data; we don't need to wait for perfect data to learn something.
14:18 < klafka> you can't reject a null hypothesis without a statistically significant sample
14:18 < klafka> not without the confidence interval being huge
14:19 < Grognor> even a shitty dataless experiment with results like "I tried it and it made me feel better" can at least point to things worth trying
14:20 < klafka> so you're saying that anecdote can drive experimentation
14:20 < klafka> sure
14:23 < jrayhawk> My life has been vastly improved by N=1 experiments. Empiricism is not stochastic.
14:24 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/The%20unreasonable%20effectiveness%20of%20my%20self-experimentation.pdf
14:25 < Grognor> I'm really saying "If you don't have maximum statistical rigor anything you do is useless and should be rejected as evidence" is bullshit
14:28 < jrayhawk> Or, rather, my life has been vastly improved by reports of N=1 experiments from others, N=1 experiments which I was able to reproduce thanks to their weak, subjective, "not big enough" data.
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14:37 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: i'm not convinced that this article is really the source of knowledge that breakfast cereals cause early awakenings.. surely we knew that earlier?
14:39 <@kanzure> hrm this article might just be a marketing stunt for http://sethroberts.net/science/
14:43 < EnLilaSko> kanzure: So his theory is kinda that different flavours and what you think of the food affects the set-point?
14:43 <@kanzure> seems so; i don't know what biological mechanism he is proposing though.
14:44 < EnLilaSko> Iirc, ghrelin and leptin plays a fairly big role in the set-point theory, you can influence ghrelin by just thinking
14:44 < EnLilaSko> So he might be partially right
14:47 < jrayhawk> There's also cortisol-cycle-dependent adaptations to insulin spikes.
14:47 <@kanzure> a hemostatis-related explanation would seem more plausible to me
14:48 <@kanzure> erm, wait.
14:48 <@kanzure> that's very much not the word i wanted to use..
14:48 < EnLilaSko> Homeostasis maybe?
14:48 <@kanzure> hey that one looks much better
14:49 < EnLilaSko> Lyle McDonald suggests people to stay at the bodyfat they "want" for as long as possible with refeeds once a week or so
14:50 < EnLilaSko> And Martin Berkhan suggests IF (very slowly) with some refeeds
14:51 < jrayhawk> There are also also metabolic adaptations to carb starvation, which I suppose is probably more important, here.
14:51 <@kanzure> surely there was some carb starvation sleep wakening theories out a long long time ago?
14:52 <@kanzure> Bed-time food supplements and sleep: effects of different carbohydrate levels (1981)
14:53 <@kanzure> Inhibition of glycolytic metabolism and sleep-waking states in cats (1973)
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14:53 <@kanzure> "In cats, injections of 2-deoxy-D-glucose, a glucose antimetabolite, produces dose-dependent increases of slow wave sleep and decreases of REM sleep. Accordingly, variations of glycolytic metabolism may participate in the control of sleep-waking behavior."
14:54 < EnLilaSko> So does that mean carbs at night = good or bad for sleep?
14:55 < jrayhawk> Depends on the context.
14:56 < jrayhawk> Sleep can be maintained while melatonin dominates blood sugar, but you can also panic the body by having *too little* blood sugar and wake up at 3AM ravenous.
14:57 < jrayhawk> Similarly, you may produce too little melatonin to safely eat carbs and still attempt to sleep.
14:58 < EnLilaSko> So it depends on the individuals genetics and such (melatonin production and such)?
14:58 < jrayhawk> Yeah, though 'genetics' is kindof a loaded term and I don't want it to carry implications of biological determinism, here.
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15:01 < jrayhawk> The cortisol cycle is supposed to wake you up in the morning through gluconeogenesis, but it's dependant on timing cues and hormone profiles that might be completely wrong, and meal timing and composition does seem to have some effect on that, but it's hard to make generalizable conclusions about due to all the variable context.
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15:04 < EnLilaSko> I just realised that I kinda like this chat a lot, no idea why I usually skip reading it
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15:06 < jrayhawk> All the context the reason rigorous n=1 experiments are so important; giving you the tools to reproduce good results is brilliant even if you can only get positive results out of ten percent of them.
15:06 < jrayhawk> "Hey, that guy's problems sound just like mine!"
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15:13 < klafka> jrayhawk: that's fine but it's not science
15:14 < jrayhawk> haha what?
15:14 < klafka> or rather quantifiable science
15:15 < klafka> which would be a hypothesis test of a falsifiable hypothesis based on empirical data
15:15 < klafka> I mean - I guess you could do it but your margin of error would be rather drastic
15:16 < jrayhawk> Empiricism is not stochastic.
15:17 < EnLilaSko> Fuck the brain is too complex to write about, lol
15:20 < Grognor> I guess in most vernaculars the word "science" still means exactly what it did in Popper's day
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17:10 < docl> I so want a better way to input text on my android phone. You'd think by now there would be ways to use the camera to type on a superimposed virtual keyboard or some such.
17:12 < docl> Heck, with the front facing camera, there could be an eye tracker.
17:13 <@kanzure> docl: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.volosyukivan
17:13 <@kanzure> docl: or just use a bluetooth keyboard.
17:13 < ThomasEgi> eye tracking? with a vga-camera from half a meter distance?
17:13 < ThomasEgi> in a shaky hand?
17:15 < docl> Hmm, good point
17:15 < docl> Might need an actual eye accessory for that idea to work.
17:25 <@kanzure> another way is that you can send yourself an sms from twilio
17:25 <@kanzure> or load a web page with the content you want
17:25 <@kanzure> wifi keyboard works pretty well
17:27 < docl> Huh? It seems to require another computer entirely.
17:29 < docl> The whole point of using the Droid is to get away from that.
17:30 < ThomasEgi> how bout tapping in morse. utilizing the accelerometer sensordata
17:30 < ThomasEgi> you could just tap against the back of your phone that way
17:31 < docl> Maybe. Any apps for that?
17:31 < ThomasEgi> i only know that there's one that can guess your phone pin/gesture this way
17:32 < ThomasEgi> guess it shouldnt be too hard to write one
17:33 < ThomasEgi> which gives roughly 40% hitratio. so guess morsing should be pretty reliable that way
17:36 <@kanzure> https://play.google.com/store/search?q=morse+code+input
17:40 <@kanzure> docl: i don't see what's wrong with a keyboard.
17:40 <@fenn> docl: you could learn stenography if your phone supports truhttp://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/594240e multitouch
17:40 <@fenn> gah
17:41 <@kanzure> docl: also, there's somme really cheap kyocera phones on ebay that have usable keyboards attached.
17:41 <@kanzure> *some
17:42 <@kanzure> http://www.ebay.com/sch/Cell-Phones-Smartphones-/9355/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=Kyocera+Rise+C5155
17:42 < nmz787> docl: I think kanzure sent me that same link a while ago when i bitched about android input!
17:42 < nmz787> I was confused
17:42 <@kanzure> wow their price has increased. they were closer to $50 a while ago.
17:42 <@kanzure> nmz787: what's confusing about it.. it works very well.
17:42 < nmz787> i would actually like better audio interfacing
17:42 <@fenn> docl: also dasher is interesting, and there's an android input whatsit for it already
17:42 < nmz787> i hate texting while driving
17:43 < nmz787> but i get bored in the car
17:43 < nmz787> or i have a question about somethign i see
17:43 < nmz787> kanzure: confusing because it wasn't helpful for the situation
17:44 <@kanzure> fenn: $200 myvu? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Myvu-iPod-Personal-Media-Viewer-/270763945293?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0ac9ed4d
17:44 < nmz787> res?
17:44 <@fenn> you probably want the "universal" not the ipod connector
17:45 < docl> Hmm. Morse code could be good. There are several touch-based ones at least. No punctuation though.
17:45 <@kanzure> you guys really really hate keyboards
17:45 <@fenn> morse code is ... slow
17:47 <@kanzure> i have never done anything productive with dasher. sometimes on dasher i like to pretend i am typing something that i wont immediately delete, but it's always a lie.
17:47 <@fenn> you've summed up the last five years of my life
17:48 < docl> Keyboards are horribly non-portable, usually.
17:48 < nmz787> i need HUD + eye tracking and better voice I/O
17:48 <@kanzure> i used to strap a keyboard to my pants, i wanted a rectractable drawstring though..
17:48 < nmz787> then a few simple click scroll buttons would be enough
17:49 <@fenn> how about a nintendo power glove
17:49 < docl> Glove could be good.
17:49 <@kanzure> fenn: what happened to your myvu?
17:49 < nmz787> how are those neurosky things for simple XY locating?
17:49 < ThomasEgi> i _love_ my keyboard.. what i hate are the commonly used layouts :)
17:49 <@fenn> it's in storage in sf, and the battery needs fixing
17:49 <@kanzure> neurosky is overhyped. so is emotiv epoc. they just bring you lots of disappointment.
17:50 < nmz787> like are there drawing or item selection apps for those things?
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17:50 <@kanzure> emotiv epoc has a proprietary api and you're supposed to submit your software to the company to get it signed or something, and then you can use it locally.
17:51 <@kanzure> daeken, myself and qdot (teledildonics extraordinaire) somehow managed to figure out most of the protocol for that device.
17:52 <@kanzure> there were like <10 applications on emotiv's site when i last checked..
17:52 <@kanzure> http://emotiv.com/store/apps/applications/
17:53 <@kanzure> oh brother "EmoLens automatically indexes Flickr photos by emotions so you can search for them later not only with keywords but by your feelings too."
17:53 <@kanzure> great now instead of only worrying about the cosmic implications of which tag i choose i have to worry about the implications of my feelings about each item.
17:56 < nmz787> are there clear CMOS or CCD sensors?
17:56 < ThomasEgi> what do you mean with  "clear" ?
17:56 < ThomasEgi> transparent?
17:56 < nmz787> see-through
17:57 < nmz787> aren't there see-through LCDs?
17:57 < nmz787> for doing HUD
17:57 < nmz787> or is that my imagination
17:57 < ThomasEgi> there are see through lcd's
17:57 < ThomasEgi> but no ccd or cmos
17:58 < nmz787> is google glass supposed to do eye tracking?
17:58 <@fenn> what would be the point of an image sensor that lets the light through, it would have 0% sensitivity
17:58 < ThomasEgi> pretty much true
17:58 < nmz787> it could be neutral density
17:58 < ThomasEgi> if you need semi-transparent image recording you are best off with a conventional cmos and a half-mirror
17:59 <@fenn> glass seems to be driven by speech recognition rather than direct manipulation or eye tracking
17:59 <@fenn> it might do hand tracking
17:59 < nmz787> hmm
17:59 < nmz787> i wonder if glass might be good for driving
17:59 < ThomasEgi> for eye tracking you don't need a transparent cmos chip either
17:59 < ThomasEgi> you can just mount a tiny camera module out of the fov and still track the eye
18:00 <@fenn> also you can track infrared or use an infrared splitter
18:00 < ThomasEgi> also possible. my guess would be a separate camera is cheaper
18:01 <@fenn> certainly
18:01 <@fenn> EOG is interesting too
18:02 <@fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrooculography
18:02 < ThomasEgi> yeah. but requires a setup more difficult than just putting on regular glasses
18:02 <@fenn> might be as simple as four dry electrodes
18:02 <@fenn> out of my realm of expertise i'm afraid
18:03 < docl> Brow tracking or something like that might also work.
18:03 < ThomasEgi> EEG stuff usualy requires well made circuitry, lots of shielding , reference electrodes etc..
18:03 <@fenn> what you do is take your homunculus and put it in a jar full of levers and buttons and whatnot
18:05 < ThomasEgi> i'd rather suggest something like a one-hand-keyboard that fits into your pocket and can be cmofortably hold.
18:05 < ThomasEgi> with 2 rows of button for each finger.
18:05 < ThomasEgi> with a bit of binary inputs you get 2x5 bit
18:06 <@fenn> it's called a twiddler
18:06 <@fenn> or perky
18:06 < ThomasEgi> hm.. yeah something like that.. just  a lot less bricky
18:06 < yashgaroth> what about a chorded keyboard
18:06 < ThomasEgi> somethin thats actually comfortable to use
18:08 <@fenn> http://homepage2.nifty.com/perky/belt.htm
18:09 < ThomasEgi> that's already a lot closer to what i had in mind
18:11 <@fenn> http://homepage2.nifty.com/perky/grip.htm
18:11 < ThomasEgi> if you'd have a touch sensitive backside on your mobile. you could use that to lay out a  keyboard too.
18:12 < ThomasEgi> totoroki! :D that's like.. the most awesome thing following pizza
18:13 <@fenn> i didnt really get how it would work
18:14 <@fenn> i guess it could be a gyro mouse
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18:27 < docl> http://m.io9.com/5985558/temporary-tattoos-could-make-electronic-telepathy-and-telekinesis-possible
18:28 <@kanzure> please don't read io9.com
18:29 < klafka> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1476-5381.2012.01998.x/abstract;jsessionid=99E2123EEB63B21F6A823B616C100A9E.d02t02
18:29 < klafka> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1476-5381.2012.01998.x/abstract;jsessionid=99E2123EEB63B21F6A823B616C100A9E.d02t02
18:29 < docl> Sorry.
18:29 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/799549f98745afcfa432442402c4b881.txt
18:29 < klafka> dammit
18:29 < klafka> is there something better i can do to make paperbot work kanzure?
18:30 <@kanzure> in this case the problem is that paperbot does not have access to http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1476-5381.2012.01998.x/pdf
18:30 <@kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot
18:30 < klafka> aah
18:30 <@kanzure> the python parts of paperbot need to be rewritten. that would be very helpful.
18:31 < klafka> does anyone in chan have access?
18:31 <@kanzure> i've been making incremental changes but they are piling up and will become unmaintainable.
18:31 < klafka> aah i see
18:31 < klafka> i don't really have time to undertake that - i owe people two mobile apps already
18:31 < klafka> :(
18:31 < klafka> also a mobile gaming ad algorithm
18:32 <@kanzure> slacking is the best way to get stuff done.
18:32 < klafka> right now i'm catching up on my dancesafe stuff
18:32 < klafka> since i run the bay area chapter >_>
18:33 < klafka> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs13181-010-0018-5
18:33 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Recreational%20Use%20of%20Mephedrone%20%284-Methylmethcathinone%2C%204-MMC%29%20with%20Associated%20Sympathomimetic%20Toxicity.pdf
18:34 < klafka> interesting 500 error
18:34 <@kanzure> the 500 error is from translation-server.
18:34 <@kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot#readme
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18:48 <@kanzure> jmil: howdy
18:49 < jmil> o/ kanzure
18:49 < jmil> how goes it
18:49 < nmz787> klafka: interesting, do you process random samples?
18:50 < nmz787> like on hplc or do you have some 'friend' who 'tests' stuff?
18:50 < klafka> umm we have reagent tests that we can do on random samples
18:50 < nmz787> jmil: long time!
18:50 < klafka> we or you can also send samples to ecstasydata.org and they will gc/ms them for a fee
18:50 < jmil> o/ nmz787
18:50 < jmil> i been traveling
18:50 < jmil> has been awesome
18:50 < jmil> tryin to launch a career
18:50 < jmil> :D
18:50 < nmz787> klafka: who tests their stuff? who is a good enough dealer to do that?
18:51 < klafka> a number test it via reagent tests
18:51 < klafka> which are obviously not perfect
18:51 < nmz787> jmil: cool
18:51 < klafka> but better than not
18:51 < nmz787> i thought they were all about profit
18:51 < klafka> nmz787: have you known many drug dealers?
18:51 < nmz787> jmil: where do you want to take your career?
18:51 < nmz787> klafka: I guess not
18:52 < jmil> nmz787: want to be a professor with a research lab. will have a whole wing for repraps :D
18:52 < nmz787> jmil: so you're looking for a tenured prof postions?
18:52 < klafka> well I have known a lot at various levels, and a number do very much care about what they are giving to people both because they don't want their shit to cause someone to od/freak out /die and also beacuse people want to buy the good shit and also because they do this because they believe in the drugs that they sell
18:53 < nmz787> or do you still need to do 85 years of post doc frist?
18:53 < nmz787> :P
18:54 < Juul> 99 years of post doc on the wall
18:55 < Juul> hey klafka do you or anyone you know have small satellite dishes (like directv) they don't need?
18:55 < Juul> we're looking for a bunch for the east bay mesh
18:57 < nmz787> Juul: will this support a predominantly yuppie community or more likely an impoverished community?
18:58 <@kanzure> nmz787: why would that matter.
18:58 <@kanzure> klafka: also you can test samples on science exchange i think.
18:59 < klafka> of potentially illegal substances
18:59 < Juul> nmz787, we're definitely trying to interface with a diverse community.
18:59 < Juul> most of the active nodes are in east oakland right now
19:00 < klafka> Juul:  i don't have any
19:00 < klafka> i'll post in my loft facebook group
19:00 < Juul> klafka, nice
19:01 < nmz787> kanzure: I'd be more motivated to help bring access to a community that was otherwise internet-limited
19:01 < nmz787> kanzure: others share similar feelings, if I came across someone with a bunch of dishes, it's a question they might ask
19:02 < klafka> ok Juul
19:02 < klafka> also nmz787 if most of the nodes are in east oakland - impoverished community
19:02 < klafka> or lower income
19:02 < nmz787> yeah that's kinda what i was thinking
19:02 < Juul> nmz787, we're interested in using it to create a resilient (censorship / disaster) network for mapping out local resources and communicating spatially relevant information in a decentralized way
19:02 < nmz787> Juul: what are the community tie-ins?
19:02 < nmz787> are you advertising it?
19:03 < nmz787> like 'get mesh in your community by voting here '
19:03 < nmz787> or in schools or something?
19:03 < jmil> nmz787: yes tenure track faculty position
19:03 < nmz787> jmil: RIT in Rochester has a pretty new biomed dept/college
19:03 < Juul> nmz787, we're just beginning to set it up, and we're mostly trying to gain a sense of how well the different kinds of technology perform, both software and hardware, and what kind of needs and interests the local communities have
19:04 < jmil> nmz787: cool. they weren't hiring this year :)
19:04 < nmz787> jmil: they've got a lot of $$$ that they do stupid things with, so someone with brains and a title could clean up there, or be pretty comfy
19:04 < jmil> aww
19:04 < klafka> jmil: are you a graduating PHD
19:04 < nmz787> Juul: cool
19:05 < klafka> nmz787: oh man RIT really doesn't hire that many people unfortunately
19:05 < nmz787> klafka: he was just a post doc
19:05 < klafka> because they have no research budget
19:05 < nmz787> at upenn
19:05 < klafka> oh
19:05 < Juul> so finding rooftops where we can mount antennas and mapping out obstructions and interference. testing software (such as TidePools) and developing some of our own. we have a meetup at the sudo room hackerspace every thursday evening.
19:05 < nmz787> klafka: not true re: biomed engi
19:05 < klafka> how much grant money do they have?
19:06 < nmz787> klafka: they are just completing a brand new building for biomed engi
19:06 < klafka> right but that was donated and via a grant from the bioX fund right?
19:06 < nmz787> klafka: dunno
19:06 < klafka> that's grants for building
19:06 < klafka> not for research
19:06 < nmz787> engi has a lot more $$$ than sciences there though
19:06 < jmil> klafka: finishing a postdoc
19:06 < Juul> it looks like the directv-style satellite dishes with the receiver heads replaced by weatherproofed usb wifi donges are the best bang for the buck for high-gain outdoor directional antennas
19:06 < klafka> nmz787: really though imaging science has the most
19:06 < klafka> honestly
19:07 < klafka> per professor
19:07 < nmz787> heh, yeah that's tru
19:07 < nmz787> i worked there with a prof for a while
19:07 < nmz787> he had a nice gig
19:07 < nmz787> building remote sensors and going out to the wilds to plant them
19:08 < klafka> ah cool
19:08 < klafka> i knew a phd student with the lidar professor
19:08 < nmz787> building crazy spectral imagers to fly over forest fires
19:08 < klafka> ah neat
19:08 < klafka> but remember the engineering building had no phd programs
19:08 < klafka> except microe
19:08 < nmz787> yeah that sounds about right
19:08 < klafka> so i mean they can onyl do so much research
19:08 < nmz787> there's a sustainability research prog
19:09 < klafka> that's a separate program from eng
19:09 < klafka> iirc
19:09 < nmz787> i mean phd
19:09 < nmz787> yeah
19:09 < nmz787> in CIMS
19:09 < klafka> they are actually in a building in CIMS
19:09 < nmz787> Center ... Manufacturing... i think
19:09 < klafka> my advisor went to a couple talks for people we were interviewing for it
19:09 < klafka> they were pretty crazy in a good way
19:09 < nmz787> i used a machine shop there a few times
19:09 < nmz787> it was nice to just walk into places like you owned them, flashing the student badge around
19:10 < nmz787> the microe stuff had some red tape to get into but I ended up in there a bunch
19:11 <@kanzure> which one of you knew zacharycohn
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19:12 < nmz787> me
19:12 < nmz787> worked with him in tech support at RIT
19:32 < ThomasEgi> decentrelaised networking infrastructure?
19:32 < ThomasEgi> or what was that a bit ago
19:36 < klafka> yeah mesh networks in oakland
19:40 < ThomasEgi> http://twibright.ronja.com/ not the fastest thing in the world. but it's a technology the user has controll over. and unlike wifi it's ways more resistant to jamming/frequency overuse
19:41 < ThomasEgi> oh wait
19:41 < ThomasEgi> http://ronja.twibright.com/
19:41 < ThomasEgi> other way round :D
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20:02 < Juul> ThomasEgi, yeah i think we'll eventually try one of those links to see how it compares in rainy / foggy conditions
20:03 < ThomasEgi> rain is no problem
20:03 < ThomasEgi> but with fog.. you get a problem
20:04 < Juul> also looking at low bandwidth long range fallback links using CB radio, DECT, homebuilt transmitters + hdtv tuners as SDR receivers, softmodem over walkie-talkie, etc.
20:13 < ThomasEgi> always depends on your requirements
20:13 < ThomasEgi> low bandwith optical communication is rather easy
20:14 < ThomasEgi> and.. how long, "long range" actually is
20:17 < Juul> one of the problems we foresee with line of sight directional links is potential misalignment after an earthquake
20:18 < Juul> we're going to do some research and testing on how much misalignment is likely to happen and how much the different technologies can tolerate
20:18 < ThomasEgi> it's not like you need tons of research
20:19 < ThomasEgi> each antenna/transmitter/receiver has a nice diagrams showing reception gain for certain angles
20:19 < ThomasEgi> the wider your angle, the more robust against misalignment
20:20 < ThomasEgi> and the wider the angle, the less gain you have, thus the shorter the range
20:20 < Juul> yes, but theory and real world conditions are different, and we don't necessarily have good info on our satellite dish + wifi usb stick solution yet
20:21 < ThomasEgi> mostly depends how well you can position your original wifi stick in the focal point
20:23 < Juul> and how much we shield the receiver from off-focal-point interference and how much that shielding causes the transmitted signal to bounce around and interfere with itself before it hits the dish
20:23 < Juul> we're going to try a bunch of different things and see what gives the best signal
20:24 < ThomasEgi> dishes usualy have a pretty good directional characteristics
20:24 < Juul> yeah definitely
20:24 < ThomasEgi> with a high gain towards the direction you point them to.
20:24 < Juul> best gain per $
20:24 < ThomasEgi> it has very low gain directly behind the dish,too.
20:24 < ThomasEgi> the parts that point from the focal point along the edge does have a bit tho
20:26 < ThomasEgi> for an optical system. you only have the line of sight.
20:26 < ThomasEgi> a very narrow beam. with no pickup from other directions.
20:26 < Juul> yeah, but usb sticks and old satellite dishes are so accessible and cheap
20:26 < ThomasEgi> indeed
20:27 < ThomasEgi> it depends on your environment tho.
20:27 < ThomasEgi> there are only a limeted number of frequency bands for radio communication
20:27 < Juul> yeah, interference may become a very limiting factor
20:28 < ThomasEgi> also, relay stations usualy cut bandwith in half for wifi systems
20:28 < Juul> do you have a good idea for a battery powered 2.4 ghz interference generator?
20:29 < ThomasEgi> a microwave oven isnt exactly battery powered. but pretty much garanteed to interfere crap out of your environment :D
20:29 < ThomasEgi> other than that. there are open source wirleless jammers on the net
20:30 < ThomasEgi> neither of those are legal to use of course.
20:30 < Juul> hah, yeah the problem with microwave ovens is that wifi is built specifically to work with that interference present
20:30 < ThomasEgi> btw. what are your definitions of lowbandwith and long range?
20:32 < Juul> 9600 baud or greater over a few miles would be nice, but it's very important to us that it's using very cheap and accessible technology, so you don't need to have money or many tech skills to set it up
20:32 < ThomasEgi> for such low baud rates you can easily design an optical transmittion system
20:33 < ThomasEgi> you could use big sensor areas (like small solar panel pieces), and entire led-arrays or a high power led for transmittion.
20:33 < ThomasEgi> laserpointers would work just aswell
20:33 < Juul> hehe, that might be interesting
20:34 < Juul> a laserpointer modulated by the headphone output or some such
20:34 < ThomasEgi> that's low tech enough to debug with just a soundcard as scope-repacement
20:34 < ThomasEgi> optical phones are really easy to do,too
20:34 < ThomasEgi> but led's work a lot better for them
20:34 < ThomasEgi> they simply have a lot more output power.
20:34 < ThomasEgi> lasers are nice because most come with an optical system buildin.
20:35 < ThomasEgi> for an led, you need to source some cheap lenses
20:35 < Juul> yeah, it's not quite as easy to do as we'd like
20:35 < ThomasEgi> but really . 9600 baud is a piece of cake.
20:36 < Juul> the challenge is making it simple enough that the devices can be built using parts that are available in the community
20:36 < Juul> with little technical skill
20:36 < Juul> but we may decide that that's too much of a restriction
20:37 < ThomasEgi> well what i can tell you is that with just 2 transistors you can already build a fully working optical phone.
20:37 < Juul> yeah, but the problem is with the optics needed for a long range link
20:38 < ThomasEgi> a simple lens.
20:38 < ThomasEgi> they can be found everywhere. in every tool shop, ebay, china,..
20:39 < Juul> hm
20:39 < Juul> maybe it _is_ simpler than i think
20:39 < ThomasEgi> as i said. i once build an optical transmittion system for audio. on just an led, one transistor and a small solar panel i sourced from an old solar-powered calculator.
20:39 < ThomasEgi> and an earpiece.
20:40 < ThomasEgi> it made pretty ok sound. above 8kHz it had a -20db slope . but regular telephone got cut of at 4khz already so who cares.
20:41 < ThomasEgi> and that was made from scrap stuff i had around
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20:42 < ThomasEgi> Juul, best of all. it's fun to play around with , and might even teach you a good deal of electronics
20:43 < Juul> yeah it sounds fun
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20:44 < ThomasEgi> Juul, got any tools to deal with electronics around? soldering iron, lab supplies , multimeter , scopes?
20:45 < Juul> Thomas42, yep, everything under the sun
20:46 < ThomasEgi> in that case.. building an optical phone should be like 10 minutes worth of work
20:46 < ThomasEgi> want me to draw you a simple shematic?
20:47 < ThomasEgi> using a software modem you may even be able to send some digital data around. not exactly much but maybe 300baud or so using simple 2 frequency keying
20:48 < Juul> ThomasEgi, a simple diagram would be great!
20:53 < ThomasEgi> gimme a second
20:56 < ThomasEgi> ok gimme 2. i'll make this a bit more supply-voltage independent :D
20:57 < Juul> cool
21:09 <@kanzure> at one point the ronja person was in here.. kendoka?
21:10 < ThomasEgi> Juul, are you fine with a postscript file?
21:10 < Juul> ThomasEgi, definitely
21:10 < ThomasEgi> kanzure, i think clock was in here once or so
21:11 < ThomasEgi> Juul,  can i netcat you the file?
21:12 < ThomasEgi> Juul, or dcc transfer? or upload somewhere?
21:15 < Juul> ThomasEgi, hehe, sure
21:15 < ThomasEgi> sure which of those :D?
21:15 < Juul> priv msg
21:16 < Juul> oh sorry, totally autocompleted wrong
21:16 < ThomasEgi> np
21:16 < ThomasEgi> i love netcat.
21:17 < ThomasEgi> the only part that sorta matters is the resistor R4. it should be picked according to the formular. other than that,  you can pretty much use any led you can get hands on.
21:17 < ThomasEgi> and any general-purpose diodes.
21:18 < ThomasEgi> and pretty whatever npn-transistor you have around that can handle the LED current.
21:19 < ThomasEgi> R1 and R2 are pretty non-critical too.
21:19 < ThomasEgi> i'd say anywhere between 300 and 10k should do for those.
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21:22 < ThomasEgi> supply voltage.. given those values. anywhere between 5 and 16V.
21:25 < ThomasEgi> as for the receiver. connecting a solar cell to a small speaker should give you first results already (try not to use your 200$ headphones as the solar panel also outputs a good deal of DC, which is not very healthy)
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23:26 < sheena1> i'm looking to talk to someone who has successfully found chinese manufacturers for a electronic gadget that they've funded on kickstarer.. anyone here know anyone wh would talk to me?
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--- Log closed Sun Feb 24 00:00:09 2013