--- Log opened Thu Mar 28 00:00:40 2013
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00:17 < cerillio> Hi
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00:20 < BioGuy> kanzure me? sorry I was looking at other stuff
00:20 < Lemminkainen> hallo cerillio
00:21 < cerillio> Hi lemmi
00:27 < Lemminkainen> wie geht's in your hood?
00:28 < BioGuy> Anyone know if there are any federal laws a DIYBio community should know about regarding genetic engineering?
00:28 < cerillio> Tir
00:28 < cerillio> Tired
00:29 < Lemminkainen> BioGuy don't recombine toxin genes in knockout toxigenic bacteria
00:30 < BioGuy> Do you have a reference for the law... and any others anyone can think of
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00:41 < kanzure> BioGuy: mostly there are zoning restrictions that you should double check
00:41 < Lemminkainen> BioGuy the reggs I refer to are anti-bio-terrorism statutes
00:42 < Lemminkainen> don't use anything that approaches pathogenic and you'll be fine
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00:45 < kanzure> well, there are ways to satisfy biosafety level requirements.
00:45 < BioGuy> The guy who started the group asked me when engineering organisms if there's any federal laws we should be aware of. My first instinct told me that this is so new I didn't think there were any... but now I'm second guessing myself. @Lemminkainen ya right now I think there will be a consensus that for all intents and purposes were going to be BSL-1
00:45 < kanzure> for instance, waste disposal is necessary for bsl 1 i think.
00:45 < kanzure> which usually means "hire some truck to pick up a colorful bin once in a while"
00:45 < Lemminkainen> aye, waste disposal necessary
00:46 < Lemminkainen> specific genetic engineering laws don't really come into play until BSL2
00:46 < kanzure> no, your gut instinct is basically wrong... nothing about this is new.
00:46 < kanzure> there are local and state laws that you should know about
00:47 < BioGuy> You all know where I can get more information on chemical and biological wastes. I'm wondering if my best bet would be just to go down to city hall and ask them.
00:47 < Lemminkainen> nooooo
00:47 < kanzure> yes you should get to know city hall
00:47 < kanzure> Lemminkainen: your advice sucks
00:47 < kanzure> BioGuy: read these, http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012/
00:48 < Lemminkainen> yeah kanzure let's have BioGuy go down to city hall and hope that the clerk is really receptive to the idea of unlicensed lab space opening
00:48 < kanzure> Lemminkainen: operating as a business entity carries with it some requirements, like complying with law.
00:48 < Lemminkainen> far better to have BioGuy get some education about this issue BEFORE talkign to city hall
00:48 < kanzure> no, he said bsl-1 which usually includes registration/licensing of some sort.
00:50 < Lemminkainen> BioGuy you got a local university that does any research?
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00:52 < BioGuy> Ya thats another thing I need to look into - see how you can get licensed or register as a BSL-1. Its easy enough to find the CDC guidelines for BSL-1 labs, but I'm having trouble finding who you might go through to be certified.
00:53 < BioGuy> Im thinking about going down to the small business development center too and see what they can help us out with.
00:53 < BioGuy> *too
00:53 < Lemminkainen> ok, BioGuy we're running off on tangents here
00:53 < Lemminkainen> let's back u
00:53 < Lemminkainen> p
00:54 < Lemminkainen> what are you looking to do, exactly?
00:55 < kanzure> BioGuy: be sure to ask genspace/biocurious for advice
00:55 < BioGuy> Basically provide a space for decentralized and open independent research, development and technology in biology and biotechnology, while meeting federal, state and local regulations
00:59 < Lemminkainen> good good
01:00 < Lemminkainen> your local university's OSEH people will know a lot and it would be valuable to befriend them
01:07 < BioGuy> OSEH good to know, thanks for the tips. I've been thinking about trying to get in touch with the instructor from my college who taught our chemical and biological safety course... though I'm afraid of showing him the current space we have to work with Ha!
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01:20 < BioGuy> Kanzure what exactly are these: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012/ They look like transcripts from discussions at hackerspaces maybe?
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01:43 < kanzure> BioGuy: i typed these while at the fbi
01:49 < NilsHitze> ^^
01:50 < BioGuy> Oh... wait I think I may have heard of something about that. Was there something in 2012 where the FBI invited a bunch of DIYBio organizations to talk about what they were doing?
01:52 < kanzure> yes. they also invited non-institutionally-affiliated individuals, such as myself.
01:55 < BioGuy> How was it? Was it a conference that went on for several days?
01:55 < kanzure> it was fine. i typed those transcripts as they were happening, so there are lots of typos that should be forgiven..
01:56 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=3a507f59 Bryan Bishop: add berlin contact
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02:05 < BioGuy> No worries I'm glad you did it, its a good resource.
02:09 < kanzure> there was also a similar event held in 2011 but electronic devices were not permitted.
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04:23 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA | http://gnusha.org/logs http://diyhpl.us/wiki http://groups.google.com/group/diybio | banned by the Federal Death Administration | official paperbot fan club
04:23 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Sat Mar 23 20:40:45 2013]
04:23 [Users ##hplusroadmap]
04:23 [@fenn    ] [ chido          ] [ He||eshin   ] [ nsh           ] [ rigel       ] [ ThomasEgi  ] 
04:23 [ _Sol_   ] [ chris_99       ] [ indigenous  ] [ nuba          ] [ Sanky       ] [ Thorbinator] 
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08:16 < ParahSailin> complying with laws is for germans
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09:06 < ThomasEgi> actually.. it is impossible for germans to comply with laws
09:06 < ThomasEgi> we have so many, that no matter what you do.. you break them.
09:07 < ThomasEgi> even if you do nothing because sometimes laws are contradicting. so either you break the one, or the other, but not breaking any is flat out impossible
09:14 < eleitl> the Gedankenpolizei would want to have a word with you, mein Herr.
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09:47 < EnLilaSko> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1021786431815?LI=true
09:47 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/CASE%20REPORT%3A%20Intestinal%20Malabsorption%20as%20a%20Manifestation%20of%20Obstructive%20Sleep%20Apnea.pdf
09:51 < jrayhawk> ThomasEgi: http://www.harveysilverglate.com/Books/ThreeFeloniesaDay.aspx the U.S. has the same problem, at least
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10:07 < ParahSailin> "Did you really think we want those laws observed? said Dr. Ferris. We want them to be broken. ...The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
10:08 < ParahSailin> also, above i did not intend to imply that current germans are like historical germans
10:17 < ThomasEgi> in terms of laws, they are ways worse today
10:26 < eleitl> I'm off. See you Tuesday.
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11:05 < kanzure> "By linking a number of different datasets that had not previously been used by researchers, Williams was able to measure when genes were sequenced, which genes were held by Celera's intellectual property, and what subsequent investments were made in scientific research and product development on each gene. Williams' conclusion points to a persistent 20-30 percent reduction in subsequent scientific research and product development for those ...
11:05 < kanzure> ... genes held by Celera's intellectual property."
11:05 < kanzure> http://observationalepidemiology.blogspot.com/2013/03/intellectual-property.html
11:06 < kanzure> naturally, we all understand that celera is evil because venter tried to patent the human genome
11:13 < brownies> heh, he did?
11:13 < brownies> didn't anyone point out there was some prior work?
11:13 < kanzure> there was not prior work. celera was the only company trying to sequence the human genome.
11:14 < kanzure> later the federal government became interested
11:14 < kanzure> and then we got into the human genome project race
11:14 < brownies> it was a subtle joke, wrapped around my scintillating insight that there's a difference between "discovering" and "inventing"
11:15 < brownies> wouldn't it have made more sense to just patent the appraoches they used to sequence it?
11:15 < kanzure> btw my new plan for my caching problem is to have a worker strip GET params, check if the content is the same as the first time/this time, then add the url to a "always strip GET params off of these urls" table to avoid future repeat http requests.
11:15 < kanzure> no, because other people had patented that ;)
11:15 < brownies> haha
11:16 < brownies> kanzure: seems like a simple enough approach
11:16 < kanzure> celera had this massive web application back in 1995 or something where you could log in and get "super secret human genome access" or something
11:16 < kanzure> of course, you had to pay billions
11:17 < brownies> heh
11:18 < ParahSailin> celera was not the first group to be sequencing human genome, but they were the first company
11:18 < kanzure> right
11:33 < EnLilaSko> paperbot: http://www.ajo.com/article/S0002-9394%2804%2901488-6/abstract
11:33 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/fe646e4a82cd869e7804b48af566310e.txt
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11:50 < kanzure> hmm http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2013/03/27/white-house-hangout-maker-movement
12:06 < kanzure> http://www.cas.org/news/media-releases/springer-and-cas-collaborate
12:06 < kanzure> springer is dumping some data into cas' system i guess.
12:06 < kanzure> "Springer and Chemical Abstracts Service (CAS) - the world’s authority for chemical information - will collaborate to include thousands of new experimental procedures for chemical reactions reported in Springer journals in the CAS databases. This collaboration will increase the visibility of articles with experimental procedures published in 165 Springer chemistry journals from 1985 to the present"
12:06 < kanzure> that was via Peter Carlton <pcarlton@cas.org>
12:11 < kanzure> "AAAS moderator: Adam Ruben, scientist-comedian" there's another science comedian?
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12:18 < brownies> there shouldn't be any. science is serious business.
12:19 < kanzure> there was another one named brian malow
12:19 < kanzure> paperbot: http://jeb.biologists.org/lookup/doi/10.1242/jeb.083931
12:19 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Exposure%20to%20multiple%20cholinergic%20pesticides%20impairs%20olfactory%20learning%20and%20memory%20in%20honeybees.pdf
12:19 < kanzure> so, is this the main cause of the drop in the bee population?
12:21 < kanzure> you could start raising bees with lower-than-environmental doses of the poison in their environment and just breed them until they have a higher tolerance (assuming that you have a sufficiently large population and that there are variations in receptors or whatever the hell bees have for an immune system if anything)
12:21 < kanzure> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21958547
12:29 < jrayhawk> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2950847/ was a somewhat more convincing explanation
12:29 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0013181
12:30 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Iridovirus%20and%20Microsporidian%20Linked%20to%20Honey%20Bee%20Colony%20Decline.pdf
12:30 < jrayhawk> i guess they're not exclusive
12:31 < kanzure> i wasn't aware of an rna virus at play in bumblebees
12:36 < ParahSailin> that fungicide they put on seed is responsible for colony collapse
12:37 < ParahSailin> er, no, the neonicotinoids
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12:45 < fenn> i heard it was some kind of fungus
12:46 < ParahSailin> lol bromenshank (first author) is a known bayer shill
12:46 < ParahSailin> http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/08/news/honey_bees_ny_times.fortune/index.htm
12:48 < ParahSailin> fenn: no, it came out a year or two ago that it was clothianidin and thiamethoxam which are commonly coated on corn seeds
12:48 < fenn> why would bees ever come into contact with corn seeds
12:49 < jrayhawk> oh, interesting
12:49 < ParahSailin> thats not the only places those pesticides are used
12:50 < ParahSailin> maybe plants uptake the pesticides and make it available to bees in nectar too
12:51 < ParahSailin> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/336/6079/351
12:51 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Neonicotinoid%20Pesticide%20Reduces%20Bumble%20Bee%20Colony%20Growth%20and%20Queen%20Production.pdf
12:51 < ParahSailin> this was the "big paper"
12:54 < ParahSailin> sometimes i feel like i'm the only one with long-ranging memory
12:54 < ParahSailin> other than kanzure
13:16 < chris_99> can anyone recommend any chemistry textbooks?
13:17 < ParahSailin> organic, physical, high school?
13:18 < chris_99> is there any that cover bother the former
13:21 < ParahSailin> those are gonna be separate books
13:21 < chris_99> hmm how about something like http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chemistry%C2%B3-Introducing-inorganic-physical-chemistry/dp/0199277893/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1364502084&sr=1-1
13:23 < ParahSailin> opencourseware or torrents
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14:20 < kanzure> gnome-paint is unusable
14:22 < bkero> tuxpaint!
14:22 < kanzure> i always end up using kolourpaint.. thought i would try something new. nope. bad idea.
14:41 < jrayhawk> fenn: http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/114/1/1.full a review that agrees with your assessment of BPA research
14:44 < ParahSailin> paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/jf010028%2B
14:44 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/7a7ce44c21d597f927734b21124b9ad9.pdf
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15:24 < ParahSailin> paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/362448?uid=2&uid=4&sid=21101940816391
15:24 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/The%20New%20England%20Origins%20of%20Mormonism.pdf
15:25 < DMXRoid> paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1991070?uid=3739840&uid=2134&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101834034403
15:25 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/On%20a%20Correct%20Measure%20of%20Inflation.pdf
15:25 < ParahSailin> kanzure: watermarks detected "This content downloaded from 131.252.130.248 on Thu, 28 Mar 2013 18:24:33 PM"
15:25 < DMXRoid> fucking tits
15:25 < kanzure> ParahSailin: file a bug report, https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot/issues
15:25 < kanzure> oops wait
15:25 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/pdfparanoia/issues
15:26 < ThomasEgi> DMXRoid, ... that results in a strange mental image.
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15:26 < DMXRoid> ThomasEgi: depends on whether tits is the subject or the object
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15:27 < DMXRoid> i <3 you guys though
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15:28 <@kanzure> might be gone for a bit, please proceed to do my evil bidding for me
15:28 <@ParahSailin> go to where?
15:35 <@fenn> "hundreds of millions of dollars wasted on BPA research" is sort of hard to believe
15:35 <@fenn> jrayhawk: i never claimed any position on BPA besides "gee this is confusing"
15:35 <@ParahSailin> anything that gets people to throw out old plastic stuff and buy new plastic stuff is a good market to research
15:35 <@fenn> and that it wasn't a transhumanist topic
15:37 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: there's this "austin hackers anonymous" event tonight so i thought i'd go and present some things
15:38 <@fenn> do they have a 12 step recovery plan
15:38 <@kanzure> god i hope so
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16:29 < brownies> "My name is Brownies, and I used to write PHP"
16:29  * brownies sobs
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17:54  * nsh kicks brownies while she's down. SHAME HARDER
17:54  * nsh comforts brownies in a cynical ploy to fasten the onset of stockholm syndrome
17:54  * nsh reduces soap rations
17:55 < brownies> she?
17:55 < brownies> calm down there, champ
17:57 < nsh> well, i tend to use 'he' on the basis of no-women-on-the-internet, but demographics are evening out and i thought, hey, if i'm going to assume anyone on irc is a woman, i'm going to pick the person crying to themselves about coding PHP
17:58 < nsh> nah, i'm just foolin'
18:05 <@kanzure> ouch
18:17 < brownies> you've all done it
18:17 < brownies> you've all written PHP and then regretted it
18:18 <@kanzure> "dongle.. can we say dongle anymore? does anyone feel uncomfortable?"
18:18 <@kanzure> "me, i feel sorta uncomfortable"
18:18 <@kanzure> "well it's okay because you're fired"
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19:43 <@kanzure> ok back.
20:58 <@kanzure> akamai has "silence requirements" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5457214
21:18 < brownies> perhaps just an inept way to say "NDAs" ?
21:21 <@kanzure> most of the NDAs i've seen don't say "you can never admit you signed this NDA"
21:28 <@kanzure> http://www.phreedom.org/presentations/reverse-engineering-and-security/reverse-engineering-and-security.pdf
21:28 <@kanzure> that phreedom seems to be alexander sotirov
21:28 <@kanzure> i think our phreedom was evgeny egorochkin
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23:19 <@kanzure> http://openwetware.org/index.php?title=User:Jonathan_Cline/Notebook/Sensomatic/20130323&action=render#%281%29
23:19 <@kanzure> http://openwetware.org/index.php?title=User:Jonathan_Cline/Notebook/Sensomatic/20130323
23:19 <@kanzure> "I gave a short presentation at the Carlsbad bio-incubator tonight that was well received.  This project proposal is based on a separate DIYBio presentation and later discussions with Cory Tobin of LA Biohackers.  The goal of the sensomatic project is to create a tool which eliminates the bring-up hassles of many microbio projects (culturing related).   Cory's real (i.e. perhaps to be published) bio project is used as a proxy for requirements ...
23:19 <@kanzure> ... generation of the Sensomatic.  Along with the requirements:  simplicity, low cost, and built to solve a specific problem."
23:19 < yashgaroth> yeah he recorded a presentation on it tonight for the video
23:19 <@kanzure> http://wiki.biohackers.la/Nitrogenase_Directed_Evolution
23:21 <@kanzure> he seems to still be using yaml for Robotics::Tecan. neat.
23:22 <@kanzure> "just say no to xml" man this guy is serious he might be dangerous
23:37 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.frontiersin.org/Neural_Circuits/10.3389/fncir.2013.00052/abstract
23:37 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/CASK%20and%20CaMKII%20function%20in%20the%20mushroom%20body%20_%20neurons%20during%20Drosophila%20memory%20formation.pdf
23:37 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: what video?
23:38 < yashgaroth> the one we're doing for indiegogo and/or microryza
23:38 <@kanzure> microryza is presently raising money on wefund i think
23:38 < yashgaroth> how deep does the rabbit hole go
23:39 <@kanzure> i'm not sure why. i can't think of any potential exits that they might have. even at 50x valuation you'd only earn $50k on that investment (i think it's capped at $1k/person).
23:40 < yashgaroth> but surely there's billions in crowdfunding ecologists to go observe [cute animal] and discover why they're going extinct
23:41 <@kanzure> even if there is, i don't see how microryza would be valuable based on that. what are they going to do, sell themselves to NIH ?
23:41 <@kanzure> i suppose science exchange has a small chance of being purchased by one of the mega chemical companies
23:42 <@kanzure> or big pharma somewhere. those guys love stuff about outsourcing to CROs.
23:42 < yashgaroth> and microryza is only competing with non-profit/gov't agencies
23:43 <@kanzure> i could imagine maybe some bigger non-profit buying them up maybe, if they feel it's important to look more efficient or accessible w/e
23:44 <@kanzure> but watsi sort of has that covered already
23:44 < yashgaroth> haha wtf someone on microryza wants to use a chemotherapy drug to reduce transmission of the brca mutation
23:44 < yashgaroth> "I am currently the co-founder and CEO of Science Exchange, the online marketplace for science experiments. " oh
23:45 <@kanzure> link to this one?
23:45 < yashgaroth> https://www.microryza.com/projects/can-we-prevent-the-transmission-of-brca-mutations
23:45 <@kanzure> is elizabeth the ceo of science exchange? or was that one of hte other ones
23:45 <@kanzure> ah... yes.
23:45 <@kanzure> hilarious.
23:46 < yashgaroth> 'other methods like pre-implantation diagnosis have significant drawbacks' oh yeah unlike taking chemo
23:48 <@kanzure> chillax dude, me and my homie were taking some chemo last week and it was grand
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23:48 < yashgaroth> yeah man it's great for a nice relaxing weekend of hair loss and vomiting
23:48 <@kanzure> don't forget the butt bleeds
23:48 < yashgaroth> I try to forget
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23:59 <@kanzure> http://blog.reprap.org/2011/03/automatic-documentation-and-project.html
--- Log closed Fri Mar 29 00:00:41 2013