--- Log opened Mon Apr 29 00:00:11 2013
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00:14 <@kanzure> i wonder if my system's clock is an accurate measure of time between keystrokes.
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01:00 <@kanzure> pfft downvotes for hating on EEG typing, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5624403
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02:29 < archels`> the chap below you seems to think that adding more electrodes will solve anything
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02:38 <@kanzure> MORE ELECTRODES
02:38 <@kanzure> don't most academic eeg setups have like >60 electrodes? how many do they want?
02:49 < archels`> nah, it's usually just too much hassle for too little benefit
02:49 < archels`> especially when you need to do dozens of subjects
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03:12 <@kanzure> fenn: eleitl claims "Yeah, old stuff. The magnetic part is bunk."
03:16 <@kanzure> archels`: if it's true that typing speed can be increased proportionally to electrode count that people would have done that by now, especially for locked-in patients
03:16 <@kanzure> erm..
03:16 <@kanzure> *if it's true that... then people would have done that by now
03:17 < archels`> exactly. Well, I'm sure there's much to be gained increasing the electrode count when you get to the scale of single neurons. But at the scale of EEG, nah.
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09:41 < EnLilaSko> paperbot: http://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/327150
09:42 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/25bc973598b7d995a7e818a435dded5c.txt
09:42 < wsimons> What is that?
09:42 < EnLilaSko> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-789X.2011.00908.x/abstract;jsessionid=82774F81A0878FD8A0AFE6678DF5CAB4.d03t03
09:42 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/cd65a8004c3cafa5150e4167cab74f65.txt
09:42 < EnLilaSko> paperbot is a bot that takes studies and gets the full study and links it to you
09:42 < EnLilaSko> But failed on those I linked
09:43 < wsimons> No, no, I meant the link.
09:43 < EnLilaSko> Study, you could have just clicked it
09:43 < EnLilaSko> lo
09:44 < EnLilaSko> l
09:44 < wsimons> 0_0
09:44 < wsimons> Fine
09:45 < EnLilaSko> Didn't mean to be rude if I came off in that way
09:45 < wsimons> You aren't a lifter by any chance, are ya?
09:45 < EnLilaSko> But it's about L-Carnitine
09:45 < wsimons> Yes, it's a popular supplement among gymrats of all sorts.
09:45 < EnLilaSko> I am idd
09:46 < EnLilaSko> But reading about how it goes into cells, if you can reduce the amount of insulin if you take O3 and choline too
09:46 < EnLilaSko> And I hope ALCAR will be able to cross cell membranes and not just go to the brain
09:48 < wsimons> I'm fresh out of the gym, and it feels nice. Not sure what crossed over into the brain, though.
09:49 < EnLilaSko> ALCAR crosses the BBB easiler than L-Carnitine
09:49 < wsimons> Effect of this?
09:51 < EnLilaSko> http://examine.com/supplements/L-Carnitine/#summary7 - Has tons of benefits
09:54 < wsimons> Very interesting. And what is its natural dietary source(s)?
09:54 < EnLilaSko> Don't think ALCAR has any, but L-Carnitine is found in meat
09:54 < EnLilaSko> Or, it does
09:54 < EnLilaSko> "Acetyl-L-carnitine or ALCAR, is an acetylated form of L-carnitine. It is a dietary supplement and naturally occurs in plants and animals."
09:55 < wsimons> I must say that I'm somewhat of a luddite when it comes to dietary supplements, hence my curiosity.
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09:56 < wsimons> What I mean by that is that I do not take them, on principle, attempting instead to compensate with dietary choices. I'm not sure if it's always possible, though.
09:56 < EnLilaSko> http://i.imgur.com/ywyaG7J.jpg - All my shit, lol
09:57 < jrayhawk> D3 is the only one that's particularly impractical to get from dietary sources.
09:58 < wsimons> jrayhawk: what is its most effective source?
09:58 < wsimons> EnLilaSko: Impressive, but after interacting with bodybuilders, I'm difficult to shock =)
09:59 < wsimons> Because some of those guys have three, four times that many.
09:59 < jrayhawk> The traditional source is from liver, though it turns out you can leave mushrooms out in the sun and they'll actually produce a pretty good amount of D2
09:59 < wsimons> D2 or D3?
09:59 < EnLilaSko> D2 is fairly bad, but shrooms produce enough D2 to raise the blood levels as much as D3 (iirc)
09:59 < EnLilaSko> And it also produces D3 and D4
10:00 < wsimons> I'm curious, does anyone here eat more or less once a day?
10:00 < jrayhawk> When I'm in really really deep ketosis I will occasionally do that on accident.
10:02 < jrayhawk> re: D3: the most effictive source is sunlight on skin; the most effective *dietary* source is liver.
10:02 < jrayhawk> s/effictive/effective/
10:03 < wsimons> How do you get into ketosis in the first place?
10:03 < EnLilaSko> Yeah, sun is obv superior
10:03 < EnLilaSko> And have other benefits
10:03 < EnLilaSko> Not eat carbs
10:03 < EnLilaSko> Or eat very little carbs
10:03 < wsimons> Sunlight on skin is something I like.
10:03 < jrayhawk> Or eat MCTs.
10:03 < wsimons> MCT?
10:03 < jrayhawk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium-chain_triglyceride
10:05 < jrayhawk> MCTs get utilized as ketones even on fairly high-carb diets; it's a popular supplement for some metabolic disorders such as Alzheimers.
10:06 < EnLilaSko> But does it really turn you into a ketosis dominant state?
10:06 < wsimons> Still, how do you get ketotic to begin with?
10:06 < wsimons> EnLilaSko: I don't see how that could happen, if there are carbohydrates coming in.
10:06 < EnLilaSko> I could see partially with MCT, and almost "fully" with just dropping the carbs
10:08 < jrayhawk> Yeah; MCTs are a nice gentle way of training up that oxidative phosphorylation pathway
10:09 < jrayhawk> though that said, you're not going to get full adaptation (e.g. muscle insulin resistance) without dropping carbs.
10:10 < jrayhawk> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2604900/ on that Alzheimers thing
10:11 < wsimons> A word on muscle insulin resistance. In your experience, what is the easiest way to clear it?
10:12 < jrayhawk> Eat carbs? What's your goal, here?
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10:21 < jrayhawk> I mean, I wouldn't suggest doing the unadaptation by eating spoonfuls of dextrose, but just making some extra blood sugar available works fine.
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10:30 < wsimons> jrayhawk: I'm curious about the mechanism of MIR
10:30 < wsimons> What causes it, what reverses it etc.
10:37 < jrayhawk> Oh; I don't actually know the hormonal mechanisms offhand. When you have no carbohydrate intake, the liver is forced to generate glucose through various gluconeogenic pathways for the few tissues that actually depend on glucose (most importantly the brain), which is both limited in terms of throughput and is largely undesirable anyway since it often involves catabolism.
10:38 < jrayhawk> Muscles, on the other hand, can happily get all their energy from ketones, provided they aren't being asked to do particularly metabolicly demanding work.
10:38 < jrayhawk> So, in deep ketosis, the muscles become severely insulin resistant to spare glucose for the brain.
10:39 < wsimons> But the body positively has to enter a ketotic state beforehand, is that correct?
10:40 < jrayhawk> I would sure hope so! If you make muscle tissue insulin resistant without ketones, you'd kill it all real fast.
10:41 < jrayhawk> Typically there's a lag time of days to weeks of hard ketosis before you get those sorts of adapatations; this is referred to as "keto flu" or "brain fog"
10:41 < klafka> yeah
10:41 < jrayhawk> When full adaptation happens, it's actually sortof magical. You have stable blood sugar and cognition regardless of meal timing.
10:41 < klafka> man i wish carbs weren't so delicious though
10:42 < klafka> because you're absolutely correct jrayhawk
10:42 < wsimons> You asked about my intentions. They do not include entering ketosis; in fact, I'd like to avoid this as much as possible. I get away with it much of the time, despite eating only in the evening, but I thought I'd ask anyway.
10:47 < jrayhawk> If you're doing a compressed eating window, you're probably spending a fair amount of time in ketosis anyway.
10:48 < wsimons> I've definitely hit it a few times, though not too many.
10:48 < wsimons> But it's detectable (smell)
10:49 < jrayhawk> I mostly notice it due to the orthostatic hypotension it induces.
10:49 < jrayhawk> Then I start upping my salt intake by a gram a day or so.
10:50 < jrayhawk> the VLCD community seems to treat salt supplementation as a normal requirement, which seems a bit weird to me
10:51 < jrayhawk> maybe my circulation just sucks
10:51 < jrayhawk> which would make sense given that i basically never do any metcon stuff
10:53 < wsimons> You control it down to grams per days? :P
10:54 < jrayhawk> The supplementation, yes. not really tracking the total.
10:57 < wsimons> I just shake the stuff into the salad or whatever, and I'm done.
10:57 < wsimons> <-- lazy
11:01 < jrayhawk> Ketoadaptation is also pretty cool if you're doing low-level aerobic work like jogging; you can run off of fat stores and never hit "The Wall"
11:02 < jrayhawk> jogging is dumb, of course
11:02 < jrayhawk> but still! fringe benefits!
11:02 < wsimons> I haven't biked in a while (weather), but it is warming up here, so I'll be getting back to that.
11:02 < wsimons> My primary sport is weightlifting, though, and it's definitely not aerobic.
11:03 < jrayhawk> oh, yeah, you probably want to stay as anabolic as possible. not sure why you're bothering with compressed eating windows.
11:03 < wsimons> Feel better this way, more energetic, no sugar crashes etc.
11:03 < jrayhawk> Huh, well, metabolic flexibility is always cool.
11:03 < wsimons> Plus no hunger -- that's the biggest one.
11:04 < wsimons> Small meals spread out evenly -- hungry all day long. I don't know how people do it. Once I start, I cannot stop, hands shake etc.
11:05 < klafka> yeah
11:05 < klafka> i'm with you wsimons
11:06 < klafka> that's why i liked keto so much
11:06 < klafka> it let me control hunger rationally
11:06 < klafka> for like the first time ever
11:06 < wsimons> klafka: on the hunger question?
11:06 < klafka> yeah
11:06 < jrayhawk> I like the cognitive benefits of ketosis, but it's stupidly hard to put on mass with it.
11:07 < klafka> i don't know if i noticed cognitive benefits
11:07 < jrayhawk> I've taken to eating a pile of egg and dextrose post-workout to spike insulin post-workout, which seems like it's doing okay.
11:08 < klafka> see i can't really weight lift due to some chronic injuriues
11:08 < klafka> but i would like to control my weight better
11:08 < wsimons> Cognitively, definitely think clearly, but I attribute this to a steady blood glucose level. Keep in mind that the thing I do isn't ketogenic per se, not until well after 24 hours, which never happens for me.
11:09 < wsimons> Weight control, as in extra weight or not enough, klafka?
11:09 < klafka> i guess i can see cognitive benefits in that i don't feel hungry
11:09 < klafka> losing extra weight
11:09 < ParahSai1in> my body is stupidly profligate with protein
11:09 < wsimons> Do you eat babies, ParahSai1in  :P
11:10 < jrayhawk> delicious AND nutritious
11:11 < wsimons> klafka: no matter what anyone tells me, I remain firmly convinced that the human organism was never meant to be ketogenic for most of its energy, no way.
11:11 < klafka> I agree wsimons
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11:11 < klafka> absolutely
11:11 < klafka> i preefer to use it to get to a target weight
11:12 < klafka> and then try and maintain that weight via a balanced non-keto diet
11:12 < klafka> but like moving into a new life situation fucked up my balance and i gained more weight than i wanted
11:12 < jrayhawk> http://vimeo.com/52645372 had a nice thing looking at huamn amylase activity as compared to other apes
11:12 < wsimons> klafka: And if you enter it via caloric restriction (I don't know if you do), then you also have your metabolic rate to consider, because it will be lowered if you're 1) glycogen-deprived (empty) and 2) already in ketosis.
11:13 < wsimons> Which is bad for weight control, for reasons obvious.
11:13 < klafka> well
11:13 < klafka> you can enter it via diet change but you do have to restrict calories
11:13 < klafka> i try and offset it by doing aerobic exercise
11:14 < wsimons> That may help, although I've no clue how much.
11:14 < wsimons> When it comes to your non-keto diet, what does it consist of?
11:16 < klafka> carbs, mushrooms vegetables with some soy and mycoprotein meat products
11:16 < klafka> and eggs / cheese
11:17 < klafka> try for the most part to avoid refined sugar
11:17 < wsimons> "For the most part"? :)
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11:21 < klafka> yeah  i mean unless you only eat food you yourself make with a careful eye to ingredients you'll eat refined sugar
11:21 < klafka> hell most bread has refined sugar in it
11:22 < wsimons> That is what I do. Bake my own bread, also.
11:22 < klafka> i find that takes a loot of time and i like the taste of food and the experience of eating at restaurants
11:22 < klafka> heh
11:23 < wsimons> What it takes is total commitment. You cannot half-ass this stuff.
11:23 < wsimons> But after a short while, it becomes second nature.
11:23 < klafka> yeah
11:24 < wsimons> As for taste, I guess it depends on what it is, but the kitchen is a place of creativity.
11:25 < klafka> right sure but i also enjoy having other people make me food, and experiencing food that has a cool cultural context, etc...
11:25 < wsimons> Yes, that could definitely be an issue.
11:26 < klafka> yeah
11:26 < wsimons> I'm unmarried, so the concept of having someone cook it for me, even to my preferences, is out of the question for now.
11:29 < klafka> i find that there needs to be a balance between health and enjoyment of life - things like eating out etc.. are really enjoyable to me so i want to find a good balance
11:31 < wsimons> I was once faced with the same problem. My only workable solution was to make a strict choice in what "enjoyment of life" really meant. I've since come to realize that the real passion was for eating tasty food, and plenty of it -- something I can guarantee for myself every day. Once that was satisfied, the thought of eating out never occurred to me again.
11:31 < wsimons> But I don't do well with balancing. Too extreme a nature.
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12:22 <@kanzure> 12:22 < mstevens> EY sometimes gives me the feeling of having found an argument where it's morally necessary we give him money to produce nothing
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12:24 <@kanzure> when did they move to http://intelligence.org/ ugh
12:26 < wsimons> "they" who
12:27 <@kanzure> the individual referenced in the previous message
12:28 < wsimons> And what is it that you pay him to do?
12:28 < wsimons> or make rather
12:29 <@kanzure> i don't.
12:29 < wsimons> I wouldn't, either.
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15:12 <@kanzure> hahah https://plus.google.com/118343182830485155505/posts/ERUJ8e1yKRd
15:12 <@kanzure> .title
15:12 < yoleaux> Stephen Lau - Google+ - People. We need to talk. This is not rooting. Nothing is…
15:14 <@kanzure> oh good https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/omap/+/glass-omap-xrr02
15:15 <@kanzure> saurik: why are people assuming it's fastboot oem unlock? do they just.. not believe you when you say you used a root exploit?
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15:19 < saurik> kanzure: snippy comments (FFS, GET OFF MY LAWN, Duh, etc.) from engineers at google are both more fun and more credible than comments made by me
15:20 <@kanzure> haha more credible. that's excellent.
15:20 < TheEmpath> I saw a guy on Reddit with the name "GetOffMyInternetLawn"
15:20 <@kanzure> saurik: pretty interesting how they handle security incidents
15:21 <@kanzure> which is to say.. by yelling. and googleplussing or whatever.
15:21 < klafka> huh?
15:21 < saurik> I have nearly finished a very long article (as usual) for my website about Glass, detailing what I did, why I did it the way that I did it, and then going into some detail about how Glass is actually a security nightmare due to some design decisions Google made that they really need to retract in the UI design (as now I just don't like them, so I am going to "call em as I see em")
15:22 < klafka> is that from jay freeman
15:22 <@kanzure> saurik is jay
15:22 < klafka> oh
15:22 < klafka>  cool
15:22 <@kanzure> saurik: btw did you look at their oauth api? it loooked like oauth v1, and probably has lots of xss holes.
15:22 < klafka> oh that wasn't a quote then
15:22 < klafka> cool
15:23 <@kanzure> saurik: their google glass device registration process is something like oauth + qr code or something.
15:23 < saurik> kanzure: no, I haven't. I haven't actually looked at the mirror API at all yet
15:23 <@kanzure> it's disappointing.
15:24 < klafka> why is it dissapointing?
15:25 < klafka> because of security flaws? architectural design issues?
15:25 <@kanzure> it's severely limited. it's basically a sandboxed environment. they require you to write your application code to be deployed to google app engine.
15:26 < klafka> so python?
15:26 < klafka> or java?
15:26 <@kanzure> doesn't matter.. it's google app engine :(
15:26 < klafka> heh
15:26 < klafka> yeah you can't even use numpy or scipy in GAE
15:26 < klafka> :(
15:27 <@kanzure> klafka: https://developers.google.com/glass/v1/reference
15:28 <@kanzure> klafka: actually, this is a better overview https://developers.google.com/glass/quickstart/python
15:28 < klafka> aah cool
15:28 <@kanzure> hah they just link straight to github, no code.google.com links
15:28 < klafka> i wonder if that implies they'll kill off code.google.com soon
15:29 < klafka> what there are links to code.google
15:29 <@kanzure> oh sorry. i didn't look thoroughly. the most prominent links were github.
15:29 < klafka> lol or php? wth
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17:12 <@kanzure> test-case: hi.
17:16 < test-case> hi
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18:26 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: sup
18:27 < yashgaroth> lab stuff, working on making a bioreactor with jcline
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19:02 <@kanzure> http://www.sens.org/sites/srf.org/files/reports/SENS%20Research%20Foundation%20Annual%20Report%202012.pdf
19:08 < ParahSail1n> heh
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19:21 < ParahSail1n> paperbot, http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/how-game-theory-will-stop-iranian-nukes.premium-1.517550
19:21 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/9d3080eab3f432f6547e1db27c63f877.txt
19:25 < maitake> what does paperbot do?
19:34 < ParahSail1n> downloads clop from lesswrong
19:36 <@kanzure> paperbot fetches papers from journals
19:36 <@kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot
19:37 <@kanzure> however, it doesn't have access to every paper imaginable. patches would be really nice.
19:38 < ParahSail1n> that zotero translator server is extremely byzantine
19:39 <@kanzure> yeah the design is broken in a bunch of different places, like the build scripts
19:39 <@kanzure> and automatic testing of zotero translators isn't fun
19:40 < maitake> can paperbot fetch papers that we would have to pay for otherwise?
19:40 < ParahSail1n> does the machine not have access to a bunch of nature stuff or is it broken translators
19:41 <@kanzure> it doesn't have access
19:41 <@kanzure> "HTTP 500" usually indicates broken translator
19:41 <@kanzure> that's HTTP 500 from translation-server
19:41 < ParahSail1n> maitake, now thats a crazy idea
19:41 < ParahSail1n> someone programming something to server a purpose
19:41 <@kanzure> server
19:42 < maitake> seriously.. is paperbot just fetching free papers or does it have access to paid journals?
19:42 <@kanzure> i'd rather not comment
19:42 < ParahSail1n> can neither confirm nor deny
19:42 <@kanzure> also i would appreciate ideas for how to make it reliably retry on different networks without asking everyone to commit passwords to the git repo or something
19:45 <@kanzure> ParahSail1n: so i think using zotero translators makes sense because it means we can just use their efforts, rather than duplicating work. but maybe the cost (translation-server) is too high.
19:46 < ParahSail1n> they sure have a lot of translators
19:46 < ParahSail1n> and while people commonly only use less than a half dozen publishers, it would be nice to keep support for all those obscure ones
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20:50 < klafka> i fucking hate odbc drivers
20:50 < klafka> fuck fuck fuck them
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22:23 < TheEmpath> agreed
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--- Log closed Tue Apr 30 00:00:12 2013