--- Log opened Tue May 07 00:00:19 2013
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01:34 < delinquentme> Molecular programming, where nanoscale engineering is thought of as a programming
01:34 < delinquentme> task, provides our second motivation. The field has progressed to the stage where we can
01:34 < delinquentme> design and synthesize a range of programable self-assembling molecular systems, all with
01:34 < delinquentme> relatively simple laboratory techniques.
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05:09 < EnLilaSko> paperbot: http://iospress.metapress.com/content/5604862127167724/?genre=article&id=doi%3a10.3233%2fRNN-139002
05:09 < paperbot> error: HTTP 200 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ec706c053ed38db77d6b9962cd7d84f9.txt
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09:52 <@kanzure> "Most of the finances for Venter's version of the human genome project came from sales and royalties of "Big Dye", which is a component of the first automated sequencing method.  He also got some revenue from the NIH, although that partnership turned sour according to his autobiography. "
09:52 <@kanzure> "The sequencing business has changed a lot since the Big Dye method, and he recently downsized his institute and laid off nearly half his staff. We interviewed many of them (they were all looking for jobs in the area at the same time), and they had horror stories."
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10:26 < brownies> kanzure: link? details? interviews?
10:27 <@kanzure> context is https://groups.google.com/d/msg/diybio/1Yi3PpQTMl4/fzXGyrA-SgwJ
10:40 < brownies> interesting.
10:40 <@kanzure> this thread is basically "phd holders beating down on people they believe are beneath them"
10:41 <@kanzure> but fuck me if i don't want to participate in your weird forms of science hazing
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11:06 < brownies> https://tito.io/dronegames/dronegames-makerfaire-sf-2013?release_id=oxszloegofm
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11:20 <@kanzure> bleh recruiter spam for http://arpeggi.com/ .. looks like yet another sequencing/data company.
11:32 < brownies> i guess big data is getting pretty big
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11:35 <@kanzure> the only way i see myself working for a "big data, big bio" company is if they bribe me with many hundreds of terabytes of free storage space
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11:39 < brownies> is that all it takes?
11:40 < brownies> "i know you want to give me branded clothes and catered lunches, but all i want is hard drives"
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12:23 <@kanzure> brownies: at least i am honest?
12:23 < brownies> heh
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12:53 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://arxiv.org/abs/1304.5058
12:53 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Water%20Planets%20in%20the%20Habitable%20Zone%3A%20Atmospheric%20Chemistry%2C%20Observable%20Features%2C%20and%20the%20case%20of%20Kepler-62e%20and%20-62f.pdf
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14:02 <@kanzure> "JCVI management knew about the layoffs months before they happened (private grant was not renewed), but didn't make an announcement to the employees.  Of course, rumors got out, they were denied by management, and all of a sudden everyone had two weeks notice.  I think this shows a general lack of respect for the employees."
14:03 <@kanzure> "When they broke ground in California to build another institute, the remaining people were told it would be in addition to the Rockville facility, and only found out the Rockville site was closing after seeing a press release. "
14:03 <@kanzure> "With all due respect for Venter's contributions to the field, he seems like a dick to work for. His loss is our gain though, we hired some of his very talented former employees."
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14:57 <@kanzure> http://blog.chicagoideas.com/2013/04/inspired-to-act-diy-bio.html
14:58 <@kanzure> "In the Chicago area, biotech companies support more than 45,000 employees. The City of Chicago is working collaboratively on a startup biotech incubator space in 1871!"
14:58 <@kanzure> i guess that's chiopensci
14:58 <@kanzure> http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-04-23/business/chi-chicago-biotech-incubator-20130423_1_biotech-center-world-business-chicago-biotech-companies
14:58 <@kanzure> oh.. "The 50,000-square foot space at 1871 provides affordable shared workspace at flexible terms for entrepreneurs and hosts events."
14:58 <@kanzure> meh
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17:55 < SphericalMouse> Sup, lardhogs?
17:55 <@kanzure> indeed
17:55 <@kanzure> how did the teardown go?
17:56 < SphericalMouse> pretty well, there probably should have been beer and wine
17:56 < test-case> Are we pro-NRA here?
17:56 <@kanzure> we are pro-NRA-giving-us-money-for-gun-research
17:56 <@kanzure> like gene gun research
17:56 < test-case> i like this
17:56 <@kanzure> our youth deserve to know about life science research and what better way than gene guns, etc. etc.
17:56 < SphericalMouse> any excitement
17:56 < SphericalMouse> ?
17:57 <@kanzure> some dirt on jcvi
17:57 < test-case> gun genes, do i have to like my sister as well? or just own guns?
17:57 <@kanzure> some nanoengineer things
17:57 < SphericalMouse> jcvi?
17:57 <@kanzure> keyboard things
17:57 <@kanzure> jcvi is venter's institute
17:57 <@kanzure> test-case: what? that's not what a gene gun is.
17:58 < test-case> i'm glad to read that
17:58 <@kanzure> you are not a biologist, are you
17:58 < test-case> i am not
17:58 < SphericalMouse> is ti proog venter is a hack?
17:58 <@kanzure> proog?
17:58 < SphericalMouse> proof
17:58 <@kanzure> i dunno if venter is a total hack, but his reputation is sketchy in a number of places for sure
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17:59 < SphericalMouse> venter seems to be the epitome of a guy who makes grandiose claims big enough to float a decent career on until the dumb vc money runs out
17:59 < test-case> Venter is a difficult man.
18:00 <@kanzure> SphericalMouse: what's interesting is that even with clinton's announcement about not being able to patent the human genome or human genes or whatever, the biotech market lost $50B in capitalization but still venter ended up ok.
18:00 <@kanzure> and venter's company kept going until 2008 when it got bought
18:01 < SphericalMouse> there are plenty of failed startups that raised 10 to hundreds of millions of dollars based on names and claims
18:02 < test-case> That's how start ups work.
18:02 < test-case> Risk.
18:02 <@kanzure> no, they don't work based on risk -_-
18:03 < test-case> sure they do, risk appetite
18:03 < test-case> Since risk and reward are so closely intertwined in competitive tech fields, those willing to take more risk are exposed to greater reward opportunities.
18:04 < SphericalMouse> being able to sucker huge amounts of money may make you a sucessful businessman, but it doesn't make you a good scientist
18:04 < test-case> Though their expected return may be no higher over a number of investments.
18:06 < SphericalMouse> so, what is the dirst on the jcvi?
18:06 < SphericalMouse> dirt
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19:25 <@kanzure> "Nor should a DIYBio programmer be necessarily be laboring under the delusion that they are scientists."
19:26 <@kanzure> SphericalMouse: please.. that's ridiculous. only institutional individuals can do science? that's going to need way more support than just "programmers shouldn't know cmos" (which, btw, many of them do)
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19:26 < SphericalMouse> many may, but not most. nor is it necessary
19:27 <@kanzure> just because you don't have a phd doesn't mean that your scientific method is bogus
19:28 < SphericalMouse> no, but in general, abstraction of unneccessary details isn't a big deal
19:28 <@kanzure> i don't think you are reading what i am typing
19:29 < SphericalMouse> nor you I
19:29 <@kanzure> you message clearly states "It may be most effectve if the DIYBio mentality shifted away from trying to do science." but who the fuck caress if they are doing science? just leave them alone.
19:29 <@kanzure> it seems like you are trying to say that you can't do science unless you're an institution, but this seems like a really hard claim to support
19:30 <@kanzure> *cares
19:30 < SphericalMouse> I'm not really trying to make universal statements either
19:30 <@kanzure> "Take the results of professional scientists and use them to create new and useful applications." this is what scientists do already, i don't see how that is unique.
19:31 <@kanzure> it just seems really wild to suggest that people in diybio are lying about their projects or something... they clearly are working on experiments, and i would definitely classify what they are doing as science, so i just don't see what evidence you are drawing from.
19:32 < SphericalMouse> I guess I feel there should be more emphasis on engineering than science (I'm an engineer, so take that as you will)
19:33 <@kanzure> emphasis from what?
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19:37 < SphericalMouse> I see engineering as abstracting the knowledge gained from basic research and using it to create things. This requires different skills and resources than basic discovery research. I think that we probably have more access to engineering resources than science resources. Of coruse, there is overlap between the diciplines, and some people will have more access than others
19:38 <@kanzure> yeah but how do you get from "science and engineering overlap" to "non-institutional people can't and/or shouldn't do experiments" (i'm not really sure which one you are trying to advocate, can't or shouldn't)
19:39 < SphericalMouse> I think synthetic bio is still very ealy stage, so anyone working in it is going to have to do a ton of experimentation to get things working. But I don't thing it is generally useful to pursue basic research on this scale.
19:39 <@kanzure> useful to who?
19:40 < SphericalMouse> to us, to our output and use of time and limited resources
19:40 <@kanzure> as an individual, i can conduct experiments where results can benefit me and not you. does that concern you ?
19:40 <@kanzure> (for example, experiments involving my genomic dna)
19:41 <@kanzure> (and not yours)
19:41 < SphericalMouse> what kind of experiment?
19:41 <@kanzure> it doesn't matter; let's say an experiment focused on basic research. does me doing this experiment upset you?
19:42 < ParahSail1n> i dont think anyone is doing useful biology for under 5000/mo
19:42 < SphericalMouse> but no, it doesn't concern me that you do experiments
19:42 < SphericalMouse> but you are mistaking concern, or being upset, with my opinion about the most efficient use of resources
19:42 <@kanzure> ParahSail1n: cathal is broke as hell, and i think john is low on funding too
19:43 <@kanzure> SphericalMouse: no, i am upset about your statement that individuals should or should not try to do science experiments. that's absurd.
19:43 < ParahSail1n> i was aware of them
19:43 <@kanzure> ParahSail1n: i'm pretty sure john's burn rate is below $5k/mo
19:43 < ParahSail1n> they're doing useful stuff?
19:43 <@kanzure> oh wait given his physical location maybe not. rent is hella expensive.
19:43 <@kanzure> keeping stock? selling stock? yes that is useful.
19:44 < ParahSail1n> john who?
19:44 <@kanzure> schloendorn?
19:44 <@kanzure> which john are you thinking about?
19:44 < ParahSail1n> erm, he got thiel bucks, he aint broke
19:44 <@kanzure> nah he spent thiel bucks
19:44 <@kanzure> immunepath tanked, right?
19:44 <@kanzure> and livilirly tanked
19:45 < ParahSail1n> ok, lemme put it this way, i dont think anyone is doing novel, primary research for under 5000/mo
19:45 <@kanzure> i think eleitl has been doing some cryo/tissue projects for much less than that
19:46 <@kanzure> also why $5k.. do you know someone who is doing that work at $6k.
19:46 <@kanzure> actually maybe eleitl is unfair to bring up; his lab is a community lab now.
19:47 < ParahSail1n> thats just the ballpark figure that i spent on reagents as grad student
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19:47 <@kanzure> btw how big was your lab group?
19:47 < ParahSail1n> me
19:48 < SphericalMouse> and people can easily spend 40k per month on supplies and reagents
19:48 <@kanzure> oh. one of the molecular biology labs i worked in was large enough to have at least one dedicated person to chasing down vendors.
19:48 <@kanzure> i think there was about 30 bodies at least.
19:48 <@kanzure> SphericalMouse: yes i'm aware
19:48 <@kanzure> SphericalMouse: i also find it hilarious how people assume individuals have no money
19:49 < ParahSail1n> there were other people in the room with me, but i was solo on projects
19:49 <@kanzure> although, for the most part, people on diybio seem to be broke or whatever. not sure. maybe they are just masters at negotiation and never paying for anything.
19:49 < SphericalMouse> why would you spend 40k per month of your own money to do basic research?
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19:50 < SphericalMouse> I can understand if if you are running a startup or something, and its essentially equity
19:50 <@kanzure> for the same reasons i would spend any other amount- probably because i need the results to proceed on other projects
19:50 < SphericalMouse> but that is applied work
19:51 <@kanzure> i am not talking about startups. just individuals. no companies. just some dude like myself in his pants at home doing things. minding his own business. angry that nobody understands him.
19:53 < SphericalMouse> If you can afford to spend 40k per month on basic research out of your own money, go for it. But I think that puts you in a very rare fraction of basically anyone on the planet.
19:55 <@kanzure> btw, not all projects cost 40k. there are in fact individuals who have less money that are still capable of doing things.
19:57 < klafka> hey kanzure are you familiar with 'being human' conference
19:57 < klafka> or anyone
19:58 < klafka> for that matter
19:58 < SphericalMouse> thats fair. but what things are they doing?
20:07 <@kanzure> klafka: no
20:17 <@kanzure> ParahSail1n: btw any thoughts about which antibodies or writing up a list of what you would want/need
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20:51 < ParahSail1n> i'd need nanodrop equivalent before i'd bother doing any wetlab stuff
20:53 <@kanzure> what about just buying a nanodrop, or paying for access?
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20:54 <@kanzure> the antibody schemes don't require an explicitly-diy setup (unless you feel that's important, in which case you should tell me)
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20:58 < ParahSail1n> well nanodrop brand nanodrop counts as nanodrop equivalent
20:59 < ParahSail1n> i wonder where one could buy access to a lab with the good equipment around here
20:59 < ParahSail1n> might be hard to find that
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21:07 < ParahSail1n> you have an idea how to move inventory of black market ab?
21:08 <@kanzure> ab?
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21:10 < ParahSail1n> antibody
21:11 <@kanzure> no, i'm not entirely sure yet
21:11 < ParahSail1n> the Fab version could be produced a lot easier than the actual antibody, but that one seems to only be used for macular degeneration
21:11 < ParahSail1n> for all i know, it could also work for cancer
21:12 <@kanzure> i feel like there's room for a generic, anonymous black market for science things, possibly through the tor service, like a generic marketplace that takes a % of transactions, and then just get a bunch of people who want cheap things. dunno.
21:14 < ParahSail1n> my priority venture is a cold storage reservoir/air conditioner for residential scale-- use excess solar output during the day to freeze slush, and use that for night cooling
21:15 < ParahSail1n> would add significant value to residential photovoltaic system
22:02 <@kanzure> davidad doing celegans things https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5672354
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--- Log closed Wed May 08 00:00:20 2013