--- Log opened Fri Jun 21 00:00:03 2013
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09:02 < kanzure> "60 percent less eczema" does that mean less cases of eczema or less eczema?
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09:17 < kanzure> those diybio emails about the job market are really pathetic..
09:17 < kanzure> "there's a glut of biology majors, therefore we're screwed"
09:18 < kanzure> but uh.. no, that means you can hire a lot of science labor for really really cheap.
09:18 < kanzure> someone's response was "That's not a good thing for you when you're the cheap labour."
09:18 < kanzure> but that's not even true. of course it's a good thing if you're the cheap labor.
09:20 < kanzure> that means it's cheap for you to hire others to do work
09:51 < Burninate> Excess labor is not a good thing for employees, only for employers with the means to run a business
09:53 < Burninate> Capital, industry experience, connections, good domain ideas, and managerial acumen might make it a good thing, but for the many people who don't have most of those things...
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10:18 < kanzure> Burninate: "the means".. bootstrapping, yo.
10:19 < kanzure> most of these biologists do have "experience", so you can strike that one off the list. tremendous amounts of experience.
10:19 < kanzure> but very little confidence
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10:38 < superkuh> It is easy to be confident when you have capital.
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11:01 < kanzure> superkuh: their main capital resource is their time
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11:23 < kanzure> http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2013/06/14/the-selected-papers-network-part-2/
11:24 < kanzure> https://github.com/cjlee112/spnet https://github.com/cjlee112/spnet/issues
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13:27 < kanzure> grandma is asking me for stock picking advice.. "I thought if I put the name in the subj line, you might well answer.  Any thoughts on buying 3-D printing stock?  There is also 3D Systems which sells for less.  What do you think the future holds for 3-D printing, both individually and on a large scale basis???  Perhaps I should have bought in early, but I didn't, alas."
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13:27 < kanzure> i think it's sort of late to cash in on the makerbot acquisition :P
13:28 < fenn> are there any companies doing DLP based stereolithography?
13:29 < fenn> that's the new hotness
13:30 < kanzure> bleh why is that new only now?
13:30 < kanzure> why couldn't it have been new when it came out decades ago?
13:31 < fenn> oh i guess zcorp did, and they're now part of 3d systems
13:31 < fenn> zbuilder ultra
13:31 < klafka> fenn:  is that the stuff that the kickstarter was for
13:32 < kanzure> there are many kickstarter.com projects
13:32 < fenn> i dunno, there have been various people doing it from scratch
13:32 < kanzure> i dunno if lemoncurry was on kickstarter but maybe you are thinking of lemoncurry
13:32 < fenn> there was a brazilian (?) guy who was trying to be all secretive and proprietary
13:35 < klafka> yeah
13:35 < fenn> zbuilder only came out in 2010
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13:35 < fenn> where the hell did 3d systems get so much cash to buy out every company on the planet
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13:38 < jrayhawk> kanzure: you'll have to give her some futurist technology to invest in, otherwise she might wind up putting her money into d-wave :(
13:38 < kanzure> that's what my dad did >:(
13:38 < kanzure> (he put money into d-wave)
13:39 < kanzure> (no idea where that money went. i can't find the firm that handled that investment. wtf.)
13:39 < delinquentme> who dis
13:39 < fenn> how come they (d-wave) still don't have anything useful
13:39 < delinquentme> who dis investmont
13:39 < delinquentme> fenn, I think they do?
13:39 < jrayhawk> because quantum computing is not very useful altogether
13:40 < delinquentme> pepers published on comparison processing for combinatorics problems
13:40 < delinquentme> that I dont think is true :D
13:41 < fenn> the largest potential application i see is solving protein structure from sequence
13:42 < kanzure> i don't see how that requires quantum computing
13:42 < kanzure> there are a number of protein folding motifs that we already have heuristics for
13:42 < fenn> it doesn't require it, it's just a good match
13:43 < delinquentme> fenn, esplain
13:43 < delinquentme> prez.
13:43 < ParahSailin> lol 3d printing stocks
13:44 < ParahSailin> just tell her novo nordisk does 3d printing
13:44 < fenn> delinquentme: the different possible rotations and bond energies in a folded protein segment can be analyzed in one go with enough qubits, otherwise you'll have to divide and conquer with exponentially increasing compute time
13:44 < kanzure> i told her to put her money in google or tesla *shrug*
13:45 < kanzure> if she is going to actually ask me then i guess i should give her something relatively safe
13:45 < ParahSailin> 3d printing is toys
13:46 < fenn> ParahSailin: diabetes care?
13:46 < ParahSailin> i wouldnt tell her tesla, hype bubbles can pop pretty fast
13:46 < delinquentme> fenn, research papers?
13:46 < delinquentme> illermernerti
13:46 < ParahSailin> diabetes drugs are always gonna be good money
13:46 < fenn> delinquentme: sorry i dont have any links for you
13:47 < delinquentme> =[.
13:47 < delinquentme> i bug you later then
13:47 < delinquentme> yuno drink in sf fenn ?
13:47 < delinquentme> YUNO?
13:47 < ParahSailin> that market is only gonna grow
13:47 < ParahSailin> sure it's a "sin stock
13:48 < delinquentme> till cured !
13:48 < ParahSailin> pretty sure it is cured, but theres more money in treatment
13:49 < jrayhawk> 'cure' is ambiguous here; we can cure the underlying condition pretty easily, but the damage done is sometimes permanent.
13:50 < fenn> http://blogs.nature.com/news/2012/08/d-wave-quantum-computer-solves-protein-folding-problem.html  seems to indicate that the problems with noise have been limiting quantum computing's usefulness so far
13:51 < jrayhawk> Beta cells function is permanently (at least until we work out stem cell therapies) destroyed by T1D in the overwhelming majority of cases and by T2D in a small minority of cases.
13:51 < jrayhawk> Same thing with the brain in T3D
13:52 < ParahSailin> thats skinny diabetes
13:53 < ParahSailin> novo nordisk sells drugs for fat diabetes
13:53 < fenn> "type 3 diabetes" eh?
13:54 < ParahSailin> yeah i think thats one alz theory
13:54 < jrayhawk> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=type+3+diabetes
13:54 < gradstudentbot> Someone's sitting at my bench space.
14:05 < fenn> btw anyone interested in quantum computing, this is an interesting spin on it http://www.frc.ri.cmu.edu/~hpm/project.archive/general.articles/1991/TempComp.html
14:05 < jrayhawk> fenn: I'm sorta shaky on the theory, but from what I've gathered from academics, quantum computing has advantages in P-scaling that are absolutely dwarfed by the head start classical computing has on it. If we project exponential advancement for both technologies, QC still not be faster within our lifetime for any NP problem without a miracle.
14:06 < fenn> "It may well be that time travel is as common as dirt, and shapes our physical laws, but conspires, by wave function interference, to prevent any operations that would result in logically inconsistent situations,"
14:06 < jrayhawk> and, of course, d-wave can be emulated on practically any PC faster than it operates in real time.
14:07 < jrayhawk> at least, for NP problems
14:07 < fenn> i expect something similar to SIMD coprocessors
14:07 < jrayhawk> BQP-specific problems I don't really understand at all
14:07 < fenn> you wouldn't run an IRC client on a quantum computer, but maybe certain specific problems in cryptography or graphics
14:08 < fenn> i dont know what BQP is
14:10 < fenn> classical computing progress is driven by reduced feature size from improved lithographic processes; QC manufacturers also have access to those processes
14:10 < fenn> have you looked at a d-wave chip layout? they are wasting most of the chip
14:12 < fenn> oops i was wrong, d-wave uses most of the chip surface, nevermind
14:13 < jrayhawk> we also have improved branching, pipelining, compilation, etc.
14:14 < jrayhawk> and the next 30 years of progress are going to be a lot more about math and less about physics
14:14 < fenn> what makes you say that?
14:15 < jrayhawk> our primary limitation at this point is the clock
14:15 < fenn> clock is limited by RC constant due to metallic wires
14:16 < fenn> optical interconnects can enable another order of magnitude or two
14:16 < fenn> then there's 3d circuitry which further reduces wire length
14:17 < jrayhawk> http://arc.cecs.pdx.edu/publications
14:17 < kanzure> what is cryptoloop?
14:17 < fenn> i do agree that the turing machine paradigm has to be overcome to really take advantage of distributed processing
14:17 < fenn> (i guess that's math)
14:17 < jrayhawk> an ancient and lousy block device encryption scheme
14:18 < kanzure> oh grand
14:18  * kanzure pokes /dev/loop0
14:18 < jrayhawk> yes, the quality of our compilers determines how small our clock domains can go while still doing useful computation
14:20 < fenn> just making sure we're on the same page, you're talking about things like RALA asynchronous logic?
14:20 < jrayhawk> I think Ivan has an arbitrarily scalable pipeline running at 5GHz, now, provided you use the bespoke functional language
14:22 < jrayhawk> And yeah, something like that.
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14:36 < klafka> fenn: sort of confused do you mean von neumann?
14:37 < klafka> we don't use turing machines we just use things equivalent to turing machines
14:39 < jrayhawk> what exactly does the word "paradigm" mean to you
14:40 < klafka> uggh i find paradigm to be defining characteristics of a particular set
14:41 < jrayhawk> okay, and how is von neumann not a subset of a turing machine
14:42 < fenn> von neumann architecture is an implementation of a finite universal turing machine
14:42 < klafka> i see
14:42 < klafka> so what would non-turing machine computation be?
14:43 < fenn> anyway, you're right that the thing i'm trying to do away with is the separation of memory and logic
14:43 < eudoxia> klafka: the C preprocessor probably
14:43 < ParahSailin> like what the loper-os guy talks about?
14:43 < fenn> any subset of turing complete languages
14:45 < fenn> when engineers design, say, a JPEG decoder block on a camera ASIC, they don't make a CPU and then program it with software, because it's too slow
14:45 < fenn> they make logic that implements the algorithm directly
14:45 < klafka> so you want to actually decrease abstraction?
14:45 < fenn> it can only do that algorithm, and not any other computations
14:45 < fenn> yes
14:46 < fenn> abstraction is important in interfaces for modularity, but it hugely increases the cost of computation
14:46 < eudoxia> PawrahSailin: i have only skimmed the site but is he some kind of paranoid schizophrenic lisp coder kind of like of the losethos guy?
14:46 < klafka> btw i saw you guys were talking about d-wave did you see the scott aaronson blog post ?
14:46 < klafka> fenn: i see i see
14:47 < jrayhawk> i saw that he acknowledged that it was, at the very least, not a complete fraud
14:47 < fenn> klafka: did you mean http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=954 ?
14:48 < ParahSailin> eudoxia: nah hes not insane like that losethos guy
14:48 < ParahSailin> his articles on buttcoin are interesting
14:48 < klafka> no http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400
14:49 < klafka>  It appears that, while the D-Wave machine does outperform certain off-the-shelf solvers, simulated annealing codes have been written that outperform the D-Wave machine on its own native problem when run on a standard laptop.
14:50 < ParahSailin> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=846
14:52 < eudoxia> >Loper has no “cores”, no instruction set (in the usual sense,) no interrupts or DMA.  These concepts are, for the most part, artifacts of the Von Neumann paradigm.
14:52 < eudoxia> the operating system is so Lisp, it doesn't exist
14:52 < eudoxia> zen, brah
14:52 < klafka> hahah
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14:54 < fenn> loper seems more similar to the forth software and chips from green array than anything else
14:55 < fenn> maybe the symbolics machines
14:55 < fenn> oh he even mentions greenarray in the comments
14:56 < eudoxia> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=849
14:56 < eudoxia> muh conspiracy
14:57 < jrayhawk> hah, aaronson links to this: http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.4904
14:59 < eudoxia> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=498
14:59 < eudoxia> >The universe keeps its most beautiful jewels in a safe that most of us cannot crack or even see.  But JMC could.  And did.
14:59 < eudoxia> ;_;7
15:03 < strangewarp> :|a
15:05 < eudoxia> strangewarp: is that your first under your chin as in thinking
15:08 < fenn> "Solution: Give all developers a 200Mhz Pentium I computer with 64MB of ram to program on. Their code won’t be bloated and will run mega-fast on current-day hardware."
15:09 < kanzure> they will just ssh into "the cloud" to get around those restrictions
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15:38 < klafka> it's true
15:38 < klafka> i have a fancy computer and i do all my programming on the cloud
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16:43 < kanzure> weles: hi
16:43 < kanzure> Juul: sup
16:45 < Juul> kanzure, 'lo
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17:10 < kanzure> "Since then I've been accruing a lot of synthetic biology experience (I'm currently probably the most experienced person in the world at a new technique called "gibson assembly" - I've done upwards of 100 successful gibson assemblies on a wide range of molecular biology targets), which should help the process go even more smoothly."
17:10 < kanzure> this world blows chunks
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17:10 < kanzure> the "most experienced person" at gibson assembly has only done it 100 times? fuck everything.
17:10 < kanzure> " the developers of Gibthon (FOSS gibson assembly design software; http://gibthon.org/)"
17:11 < kanzure> stalk: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=dnautics isaac@indysci.org
17:11 < kanzure> ugh he uses reddit and respects omri
17:11 < kanzure> fuck
17:12 < kanzure> "isaac yonemoto"
17:12 < kanzure> oh it looks like i am wrong and he hates omri too, http://www.indysci.org/mission/oncrowdfunding.html
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17:15 < kanzure> prince of persia c64 development stuff http://popc64.blogspot.com/
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17:19 < fenn> why are you interested in porting from one old platform to another?
17:19 < kanzure> i have this slight hope that people have better ideas than me once in a while
17:20 < kanzure> this paid off in the case of static recompilation, like http://andrewkelley.me/post/jamulator.html
17:20 < kanzure> .title
17:20 < yoleaux> Statically Recompiling NES Games into Native Executables with LLVM and Go - Andrew Kelley
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17:26 < fenn> uh, is this not just disassembly and compilation?
17:28 < kanzure> it is simultaneously both
17:29 < fenn> but there's an intermediate step that looks a lot like assembly
17:30 < fenn> We just turned a binary machine code program into human-readable assembly.
17:30 < fenn> Now that we can figure out the assembly source code from 6502 machine code, we can start the fun part - converting the assembly program into native machine code.
17:31 < fenn> i mean it's educational, if you want to know how a disassembler works
17:36 < kanzure> i wrote a disassembler, but i did it very poorly
17:36 < kanzure> i think llvm makes more sense for that task
17:37 < eudoxia> llvm is the best thing ever
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18:20 < fenn> you can't make this stuff up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiley#Licensing_and_legal_issues
18:20 < delinquentme> fenn r/nottheonion
18:20 < kanzure> don't make fenn visit reddit he will never fucking return
18:20 < kanzure> screw you
18:21 < kanzure> fenn has a single track attention span and you have just destroyed him for months i think
18:21 < strangewarp> but le reddit big social media website with democratic voting system super epic!!!aaaaaaaa
18:22 < fenn> reddit doesn't do it for me, for whatever reason
18:22 < kanzure> probably because of the overwhelming disappointment
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21:33 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Emerging_technologies
21:38 < kanzure> it lists EEG -_-
21:38 < kanzure> and "ethics of ai".. how is that a technology.
21:38 < kanzure> "whole genome sequencing".. this is the lamest list ever.
21:39  * brownies pokes gradstudentbot 
21:39 < gradstudentbot> The grant got rejected.
21:40 < fenn> i dont know why ethics is on there, but overall the list is pretty interesting stuff IMHO
21:42 < kanzure> it seems very typical
21:42 < kanzure> also this sounds interesting in theory, but it just links to something with some crap about 3d printing on the moon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Hieroglyph
21:42 < kanzure> "oh my god we can take things that work on earth and do it elsewhere???"
21:43 < fenn> i think you missed the point of that one
21:43 < fenn> the idea is "we can do this cool stuff, so why aren't we doing it"
21:43 < kanzure> "Stephenson says that "a good SF universe has a coherence and internal logic that makes sense to scientists and engineers. Examples include Isaac Asimov"
21:46 < fenn> apparently the answer is "powerpoint"
21:46 < kanzure> huh?
21:48 < fenn> PowerPoint exerts a significant and probably measurable drag on economic productivity. How many hours are spent each year by highly educated people creating PowerPoint slides? ... It might be going too far to suggest that this fully explains modern society’s inability to Get Big Stuff Done, but my gut tells me that it’s a major contributing factor. Meetings and groups might be an excellent
21:48 < fenn> way to establish dominance hierarchies among primates, but they are not the way to cultivate and develop extraordinary ideas.
21:52 < fenn> Actually making things come to pass. Isn’t that what Hieroglyph is all about?
21:52 < fenn> So, let’s stop prevaricating around the bush, and start laying out actual roadmaps to the futures we’re talking about.
21:52 < fenn> i dare say that sounds familiar
21:53 < kanzure> yeah but check his site, it's like one article about 3d printing or something
21:53 < fenn> i dont see where you're getting that
21:53 < kanzure> hover over 'projects'
21:53 < kanzure> http://hieroglyph.asu.edu/project/stereolunagraphy/
21:54 < kanzure> http://hieroglyph.asu.edu/project/the-tall-tower/
22:01 < fenn> NIH announced at the end of April that they’ll be distancing themselves from the DSM after the 5th edition is released. The primary reason given is that existing mental health pathologies are too qualitative and don’t sync up with emerging neurobiological explanations for cognitive/mood disorders.
22:01 < fenn> go NIH! woo
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--- Log closed Sat Jun 22 00:00:04 2013