--- Log opened Mon Jul 29 00:00:39 2013 00:08 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:11 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:13 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:30 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:35 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:35 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:55 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:55 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:57 -!- wrldpc [~wrldpc@120.88.50.102] has quit [Quit: wrldpc] 01:04 -!- wrldpc [~wrldpc@120.88.50.102] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:06 -!- anannie [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:11 -!- wrldpc [~wrldpc@120.88.50.102] has quit [Quit: 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[~Adillian@124.43.127.61] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:38 -!- augur_ [~augur@c-71-57-182-133.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:38 -!- augur [~augur@c-71-57-182-133.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:40 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:40 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has quit [Changing host] 01:40 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:47 -!- pan4x [panax@131.247.116.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:52 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:55 -!- anannie [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:09 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:09 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:25 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:33 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:35 -!- wrldpc [~wrldpc@120.88.50.102] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:41 -!- wrldpc [~wrldpc@120.88.50.102] has quit [Quit: wrldpc] 02:51 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:03 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:03 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-92-20-218-158.as13285.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:19 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:21 < archels> paperbot: http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/ARTL_e_00083 03:21 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag5/10.1162/ARTL_e_00083.pdf 03:26 -!- yoleaux [~yoleaux@obquire.infologie.co] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:27 -!- yoleaux [~yoleaux@obquire.infologie.co] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:28 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:38 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:49 -!- anannie [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:07 -!- anannie [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:09 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-92-20-218-158.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:24 -!- ivan` [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:26 -!- ivan` [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:13 -!- yoleaux [~yoleaux@obquire.infologie.co] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:25 -!- Adillian [~Adillian@124.43.127.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:47 <@kanzure> https://github.com/ShopBotTools/handibot-hardware 05:48 <@kanzure> http://www.shopbottools.com/mApplications/developers.htm 05:48 <@kanzure> https://github.com/ShopBotTools/handibot-hardware/blob/master/models/HandibotV1.00.00.stp 05:48 -!- yoleaux [~yoleaux@obquire.infologie.co] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:00 -!- spreelanka [~anonymous@71-91-140-30.static.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:02 -!- wrldpc [~wrldpc@120.88.50.102] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:27 -!- Adillian [~Adillian@61.245.163.27] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:29 < archels> paperbot: http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/ARTL_a_00085 06:30 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ccde309e4a2a34c5d30049b7cd60e03f.pdf 06:40 <@kanzure> ableep boopr 06:48 < archels> hi kanzure 06:48 < archels> thanks for paperbot! 06:49 <@kanzure> something new is coming on that front 06:49 <@kanzure> to replace paperbot's guts with something more scary/powerful 06:50 < anannie> how does paperbot actually work? 06:50 <@kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot 06:50 < archels> it will achieve sentience? 06:51 <@kanzure> nothing so pedestrian 06:52 < anannie> paperbot: hi 06:52 * anannie expected a response 06:52 < gradstudentbot> Does this look contaminated to you? 06:54 <@kanzure> anannie: paperbot just fetches papers. it isn't capable of human emotion or thought. 06:54 < anannie> kanzure: I was expecting an eliza type bot 07:05 <@kanzure> sorry to disappoint :) 07:18 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:24 < anannie> Okay I've decided to build one robot every week for the next 100 weeks 07:24 < anannie> Today is week one and I'm torn between building a simple, but practical vehicle and doing line following on it or building a six legged walker 07:29 <@fenn> anannie: maybe it seems obvious to you, but why would you do that? 07:29 < anannie> fenn: Do what? 07:30 < anannie> fenn: Build a robot each week for the next 100 weeks? 07:30 < anannie> fenn: or build a simple, practical vehicle? 07:30 <@fenn> well, that too, but why build a line follower or a walker? i don't see the point 07:31 <@fenn> you can buy a well engineered RC car for $50 07:31 < anannie> fenn: The point is to learn the fundamentals and the way systems are controlled and basically creating complex machines with behaviour, personalities and so on 07:31 < anannie> fenn: This is what I excel at. I like building robots 07:31 < anannie> All's well in the world when I'm building robots 07:32 <@fenn> why not just do heroin, it's cheaper 07:32 < anannie> I'm using Lego for most of this, so it's rather cost effective. 07:32 < anannie> I'll mate the Lego with arduino and then run it off of that 07:33 < anannie> and a few of the machines, I'll start building them from scratch as well 07:34 <@kanzure> fenn: that's a lousy line of argument 07:35 <@kanzure> fenn: are you a heroin addict now 07:36 <@fenn> i just dont see the difference between line followers and gluing popsicle sticks together 07:36 < anannie> and what are worthy projects in your pov? 07:37 < anannie> I'm not claiming that it's anything special. I'm just trying to do stuff by volume, so that I end up doing something special 07:38 <@fenn> i just think if you build something, it should have a purpose. 07:38 < anannie> this does have a purpose 07:39 < anannie> educating me so that I can do interesting stuff later on 07:39 <@fenn> fair enough 07:39 <@fenn> you would be better served learning how to run a cnc mill 07:39 < anannie> I've already done that 07:40 < anannie> and there aren't too many mills around me 07:40 <@fenn> then build one :P 07:40 < anannie> I will 07:40 < ParahSail1n> a cnc mill is a type of robot 07:40 < ParahSail1n> that can be week 1 07:41 < anannie> I don't have enough parts to make that... I'll make it once I have acquired enough parts 07:41 <@fenn> that sounds like a video game argument 07:41 <@fenn> you should make it out of whatever you have access to 07:41 <@kanzure> not enough ore! mine more ore! 07:42 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o archels] by kanzure 07:42 < anannie> fenn: which is basically stuff that I can fit into my suitcase 07:42 <@fenn> besides, you wouldn't want to waste your legos on something that you don't want to take apart 07:42 < ParahSail1n> lol legos? 07:42 < anannie> fenn: I'm not living in the US.... third world country and so a lot of things are restricted for me 07:42 < anannie> I can only build with what I can carry 07:43 <@kanzure> anannie: that's not a fair excuse, sorry 07:43 <@kanzure> anannie: many people in third world countries have built very tiny cnc machines 07:43 <@fenn> that's a pretty huge engineering constraint 07:43 < anannie> kanzure: Sure with time, but I can't carry that around... too heavy 07:43 < ParahSail1n> i saw a video of a schoolteacher who's now an arms manufacturer in aleppo 07:43 <@kanzure> what is too heavy? sorry. 07:43 < anannie> kanzure: I move around a lot 07:43 < ParahSail1n> does syria count as third world? 07:43 < anannie> kanzure: The drills, hacksaws, motors, and other stuff 07:44 <@kanzure> have you considered not building a heavy cnc? 07:44 < anannie> kanzure: You need a drill at least something to make that 07:44 < ParahSail1n> maybe you should solve the constraint of only being able to build stuff you can carry first 07:44 <@fenn> i'm having trouble imagining a situation where there's no access to tools and yet you move around a lot, and never visit the same place twice 07:45 <@kanzure> ah yes the traveling machinist problem 07:45 <@kanzure> traveling bootstrapping machinist problem 07:45 < anannie> building one requires a setup of drills, material and so on... I move around a lot. New town every 3 to 6 months. 07:45 <@kanzure> welp you better get good at recreating everything each time :) 07:45 <@kanzure> that's what fenn did 07:45 <@kanzure> until he lost his soul 07:45 <@fenn> kanzure: hey that's pretty good 07:46 < ParahSail1n> what third world country is this anyway 07:46 <@kanzure> america 07:46 < anannie> India. 07:46 <@kanzure> my answer is funnier. 07:46 < anannie> yup 07:46 <@fenn> well it sounds like you should just make small stuff 07:47 <@fenn> that actually might be an innovation in itself 07:48 <@fenn> a mini factory standardized around dremel sized tooling 07:49 * anannie hopes fenn realizes that she can carry about 6lbs at a time 07:49 <@fenn> RC servos for airplanes are pretty lightweight, they have to be 07:49 < ParahSail1n> bootrapping all that seems like its more effort than its worth 07:49 <@fenn> anannie: okay, first thing to re-invent is the wheel 07:50 <@kanzure> ParahSail1n: frictionless bootstrapping makes the more costly things much less costly. instead of buying a $500k haas suddenly you are building one. 07:50 <@fenn> and then make a robot that follows you around 07:51 < ParahSail1n> solve the 6 lb constraint, then go from there 07:51 <@kanzure> i was talking with a startup the other day that was trying to convince me that their 3-axis haas was a "company perk" 07:51 <@kanzure> yeah, just what i want to do, wallow in misery every day waiting for a turn to use a haas 07:51 < ParahSail1n> what is that small build it yourself cnc mill that recently came out? 07:52 <@kanzure> there are many. most of them only cut really terrible materials like paper or wood. 07:52 <@fenn> it's a shame nobody has worked on "fast tool servo" or active structural vibration damping in these small machines 07:53 < ParahSail1n> shapeoki 07:53 <@kanzure> i am pretty sure everyone is pretending that vibration doesn't exist 07:53 <@kanzure> or they are just too clueless to be aware of anomalies in their cut pieces 07:53 <@kanzure> shapeoki is not recent.. haha. 07:54 < ParahSail1n> how long's it been around 07:54 -!- biostudent [~chatzilla@host86-128-181-49.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:54 <@fenn> shapeoko looks more like a self-assembled kit than something one could make from scratch 07:54 <@kanzure> i don't have a list of wood-cutting cnc machines because i treated them all as a joke 07:54 <@kanzure> abetusk was working on one i think, he probably knows their names better than i do 07:55 <@kanzure> possibly randallagordon 07:55 < ParahSail1n> wood has its uses 07:55 <@fenn> wood is just extra-rigid styrofoam 07:55 <@kanzure> did you ever look at fenn's stewart platform for hexapod cnc stuff? 07:55 < ParahSail1n> same specific modulus as steel 07:55 < ParahSail1n> just doesnt like fire very much 07:56 <@fenn> http://fennetic.net/machines/hextatic 07:57 <@fenn> also "wood" and "steel" are hilariously vague terms when it comes to machining 07:57 < ParahSail1n> id bet its even possible to make a roller coaster out of wood if you cared enough to attempt it 07:57 <@kanzure> making a rollercoaster is not a particularly interesting feat in this context 07:58 -!- wrldpc [~wrldpc@120.88.50.102] has quit [Quit: wrldpc] 07:58 <@fenn> how about a wooden electron microscope 07:58 <@kanzure> "your electrons deserve only the finest maple finish" ? 08:01 <@fenn> i wonder if there's a good set of instructions for making poly lactic acid from starch 08:02 <@fenn> better than i expected: http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Polylactic_acid/Manufacturing_Instructions 08:04 <@fenn> anannie: if you do go the traveling bootstrapping machinist route, concrete is your friend. design systems with demountable massive components 08:07 <@fenn> also, you can make a fairly serviceable machinable wax from paraffin and HDPE plastic bags 08:07 <@fenn> (paraffin wax) 08:08 <@kanzure> argh github is down. 08:09 <@fenn> it's a great mold material for silicone rubber parts 08:12 <@fenn> anannie: http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/ch4/ this whole series is great 08:27 < ParahSailin> hdpe bags and wax? 08:28 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:31 < ParahSailin> why is coefficient of performance so attrocious on ice making machines 08:31 <@fenn> ah here's what i was remembering; not the most awesome robot but it's really neat to see it all made from scratch http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/omni2/ 08:32 < ParahSailin> AC units get 3.5 COP, and ice machines seem to get less than 1 08:32 <@fenn> because it's a higher temperature differential 08:33 < ParahSailin> evaporators on ice machines goes at -20 C, i dont think its just carnot efficiency at play 08:34 <@kanzure> quick, scram to make a library calle ddildo.js http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/CR-vibration-20130723/ 08:35 <@kanzure> oh it's just a timer? 08:35 <@fenn> someone tell qdot 08:35 <@kanzure> and why isn't there a callback for when the vibration is done? 08:35 <@kanzure> who designs this shit 08:35 < ParahSailin> .wa 253/(313-253) 08:35 < yoleaux> 253/(313-253): 253/60; Decimal approximation: 4.216666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666...; Repeating decimal: 4.216^_ (period 1); Mixed fraction: 4 13/60; Number line: http://is.gd/p6U1vY; Continued fraction: [4; 4, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2]; Egyptian fraction expansion: 4 + 1/5+1/60 08:36 < ParahSailin> .wa 283/(313-283) 08:36 < yoleaux> 283/(313-283): 283/30; Decimal approximation: 9.433333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333...; Repeating decimal: 9.43^_ (period 1); Mixed fraction: 9 13/30; Number line: http://is.gd/GBlCDD; Continued fraction: [9; 2, 3, 4]; Egyptian fraction expansion: 9 + 1/3+1/10 08:36 < ParahSailin> you should still get at least half the COP out of an ice maker 08:36 <@kanzure> does wolfram alpha really need to display 58 zeros to get the point across? 08:36 <@kanzure> i mean 58 '6's 08:36 <@fenn> does wolfram alpha really need to give us the egyptian version of the number? 08:37 <@kanzure> get out of my head 08:37 <@kanzure> i totally called the 2 GHz frequency 08:37 <@kanzure> go find your own brain wave frequency, you squatter 08:39 <@fenn> i never understood why phone vibration has no control over the frequency of vibration 08:39 <@fenn> everyone's phone sounds the same 08:40 <@kanzure> but also what about strength of vibration (what is that a function of, anyway) 08:40 <@fenn> oh well at least they let you specify in milliseconds 08:40 <@fenn> you could do software pulse width modulation 08:41 <@fenn> the amplitude is determined by the mass of the weight on the motor 08:47 -!- spreelanka [~anonymous@71-91-140-30.static.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:47 < abetusk> I assembled a ShapeOko kit a while back. I also have a Zen toolworks machine. I haven't used the Zen toolworks for anything past drilling wood and routing PCBs 08:47 < abetusk> The ShapeOko has significant problems though 08:49 < ParahSailin> ah? 08:50 < abetusk> I think kanzure is right, that the vibration isn't really accounted for. In the kit that I purchased, the y-axis was only driven by a belt on the left side and the right side was left without a drive train. This produced visible fishtailing when changing directions. So the first thing you have to do is get another stepper and another belt and put it on the other side of the y-axis 08:51 <@kanzure> haha a belt 08:51 < abetusk> At the time they didn't offer this option, but now they sell an 'upgrade' so that you can do it yourself. My feeling is that this should be necessary 08:51 < gradstudentbot> Nobody has tried this before. 08:51 < abetusk> yep, and that's the other thing, it's a belt. 08:52 < abetusk> So, engraving wood, sure. Anything more than that and I would be skeptical. Thinking that you can cut aluminum is optimistic, imo 08:52 < abetusk> There's also the problem of actually fastening the belt down so it's tight. That's a real pain and I haven't figured out a solution yet 08:53 < abetusk> Limit switches are not really thought of and it's difficult to figure out how to install them. 08:54 < abetusk> Anyway, it kind of looks like a first attempt by someone who didn't know that much about CNCs. I really appreciate it's open nature, but it has some design problems 08:55 < abetusk> The Zen toolworks on the other hand, I like a lot. That's PVC with a leadscrew system, so I think it would be able to handle wood no problem. They say it can cut aluminum with some success, but that's getting iffy 08:55 < abetusk> accurate enough to do surface mount PCB routing... 08:56 < gradstudentbot> It's contaminated. 08:57 <@kanzure> fenn: i think it's hilarious how nobody listens to you 08:57 < gradstudentbot> You know, I can just do consulting. 08:59 <@fenn> shapeoko is driven by a leadscrew from what i can see 08:59 <@fenn> gradstudentbot: great plan, let's farm out the consulting work to bots 08:59 < gradstudentbot> Why did I go to grad school? 08:59 <@fenn> "buy IBM" "just use XML" 09:00 <@kanzure> webscale. 09:00 -!- spreelanka [~anonymous@71-91-140-30.static.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:02 < abetusk> fenn, The initial version I think did use a leadscrew system, but Edward Ford eventually changed it to a belt system...maybe for cost and/or simplicity? See: https://www.inventables.com/technologies/desktop-cnc-mill-kits-shapeoko 09:02 < abetusk> That is definitely a belt system 09:03 <@fenn> ah that's unfortunate 09:03 < abetusk> yep 09:03 <@fenn> the roller v bearing can handle a lot more force 09:04 -!- tomkinsc [~tomkinsc@c-24-4-11-202.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:04 < abetusk> yeah, that's another thing, I'm not to sure about using that roller system as the linear guide. 09:05 <@fenn> should be fine if it's hard anodized 09:06 <@fenn> how do you take the slop out? there doesn't seem to be any eccentric cam 09:07 <@fenn> if the rollers are just held in place by friction, they'll work loose 09:07 < abetusk> eccentric cam? 09:07 <@fenn> a bushing with the center hole not quite concentric 09:08 <@fenn> the bearing mounts on it, and you can move the bearing in and out by rotating the bushing 09:08 < abetusk> As a way to keep the belt under tension? 09:09 <@fenn> no, because the holes locating the bearings aren't spaced exactly right 09:10 <@fenn> i imagine the plate they're mounted on flexes like crazy so it's probably a moot point 09:10 < ParahSailin> its kind of annoying trying to make a save as box pop up to save a file generated in javascript in browser 09:11 <@kanzure> you have to have the right headers from the server 09:11 <@kanzure> or you can set window.location but it will prepopulate the filename with 'data' 09:11 <@kanzure> oops i mean document.location 09:11 < ParahSailin> well in this case there's no server generating the file 09:11 <@fenn> "generated in browser" means the server has nothing to do with it 09:12 <@kanzure> frankly the only two options are to get the http response headers from the server right or to use something like dropbox-js or filepicker-js 09:12 < ParahSailin> but what i've had to do is actually transmit the file to the server as xhr then download it 09:12 <@kanzure> you can also use the html5 filesystem api but that's only for a sandboxed area of the file system that users can never find 09:12 < ParahSailin> still can't get the right headers to make it make a save as box 09:12 <@kanzure> usually browsers will give you a save-as box if it doesn't recognize the mime type 09:12 -!- Jaakko97 [~Jaakko@cpc13-newc15-2-0-cust64.16-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:13 <@kanzure> sometimes you can do something like, Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=filename.ext 09:13 <@kanzure> but not all browsers respect Content-Disposition: attachment 09:13 < ParahSailin> i tried "Content-Type: application/download'" and that didnt work 09:13 -!- nicedice [~nicedice@unaffiliated/nicedice] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:13 <@kanzure> Content-Disposition is not Content-Type 09:14 -!- Jaakko97 [~Jaakko@cpc13-newc15-2-0-cust64.16-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:14 < ParahSailin> also put "Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=pilot_session.json" 09:14 -!- abetusk [~abe@cpe-24-58-232-122.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:14 < ParahSailin> still doesnt pop up save as box 09:14 <@kanzure> and it just shows in your browser instead? 09:14 < ParahSailin> it just downloads as that suggested file name 09:15 -!- abetusk [~abe@cpe-24-58-232-122.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:15 <@kanzure> there is no cross-browser compatible way to trigger "save as" 09:16 < ParahSailin> how about just chrome way to do it, this is an internal app 09:16 <@kanzure> again, filepicker and dropbox-js are two good options until html5 filesystem api stops sucking 09:17 <@kanzure> what about using the data uri format 09:17 <@kanzure> also if you are okay with flash, that's another option. 09:18 < ParahSailin> the data just saves it as download.something without popping up dialog 09:18 <@kanzure> i also recall an html5 attribute that you can add to an element called download, but i haven't tried it. ask nmz787. 09:18 < ParahSailin> yeah i guess ill have to use that flash thing 09:18 <@kanzure> test link 09:19 <@kanzure> ah the internet says that this download attribute is only respected by google chrome as of july 2012 09:22 < ParahSailin> downloadify it is i guess 09:24 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-108-18-159-219.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:36 < abetusk> fenn, what's this eccentric cam business and what is it used for? 09:36 < anannie> fenn: Thanks for the link! 09:45 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-108-18-159-219.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:45 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-108-18-159-219.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:49 <@fenn> abetusk: imagine you want to pinch a rail between three roller bearings, to make a sliding movement. the distance between the bearings will inevitably be different from the diameter (thickness) of the rail, so there needs to be a way to adjust the distance 09:50 <@fenn> one way to do it is to have an oval slot, and just move one bearing in and out and bolt it in place at the correct distance 09:51 <@fenn> another way is to push it in and out with a fine threaded screw 09:51 <@fenn> the eccentric bushing is just another mechanism to adjust the distance, but it happens to be very compact 09:52 <@fenn> another advantage is that the forces acting on it won't cause it to loosen, since tightening/loosening is done by applying torque 09:54 <@fenn> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61en8VKlg7L.jpg notice the stud/shoulder part isn't concentric with the roller part (you might have to zoom in to see this) 09:55 <@fenn> it's a very tiny adjustment 10:05 <@fenn> maybe easier to see the offset in this image http://www.2cvsource.com/files/1208090.jpg 10:05 <@fenn> i can't believe there's no diagram of this on the internet 10:08 <@fenn> http://www.qbcbearings.com/BuyRFQ/LinearB_Guide_B_VG_EC.htm 10:08 <@fenn> click on "drawing" 10:25 -!- biostudent [~chatzilla@host86-128-181-49.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:47 < ParahSailin> weird, there's a secret, undocumented multiprocessing.pool.ThreadPool in python 10:52 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-92-20-169-98.as13285.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:56 -!- Adillian [~Adillian@61.245.163.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:00 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-92-20-169-98.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:13 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-92-20-151-75.as13285.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:30 -!- lichen_ [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:33 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:41 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-92-20-151-75.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:17 -!- tomkinsc [~tomkinsc@c-24-4-11-202.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 12:19 -!- spreelanka [~anonymous@71-91-140-30.static.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has quit [Quit: spreelanka] 12:25 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:27 -!- tomkinsc [~tomkinsc@c-24-4-11-202.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:32 -!- augur [~augur@c-71-57-182-133.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:32 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:32 -!- augur [~augur@c-71-57-182-133.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:33 -!- bkero [~bkero@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:34 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:34 -!- bkero [~bkero@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:49 <@heath> paperbot: http://nar.oxfordjournals.org/content/40/7/2862.long 12:49 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1093%2Fnar%2Fgkr1173 12:50 <@heath> oh, it's already free 13:02 < nmz787> so is there a list of human-nonhuman hydbrids that have been tried and don't work... this would be a list with both human males inseminating nonhuman females, and vice versa (human females getting inseminated with nonhuman semen) 13:04 <@fenn> seeing as bestiality is illegal in most places, you'd have a hard time getting an accurate list 13:04 <@fenn> but there's a reason they're called species 13:05 -!- cpopell_ [47fff18b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.255.241.139] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:05 <@fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanzee if you haven't read it yet 13:08 < gradstudentbot> None of this data makes sense. 13:10 <@kanzure> nmz787: so basically you're saying that the only way to know for sure is to get a bunch of girls to fool around with animals? instead of, you know, genetics. 13:12 < cogitokat> I'd watch that 13:20 <@fenn> oh apparently it's legal in russia, you just can't film it 13:21 < nmz787> kanzure: what do you mean knowing genetics? we only know by observation or experiment 13:21 <@kanzure> ivf? 13:22 < nmz787> there are plenty of species that can interbreed 13:22 < nmz787> lions and tigers 13:22 < nmz787> donkey and horse 13:22 < nmz787> neanderthal and sapiens 13:22 < nmz787> its interesting that female lion on male tiger isn't the same as male lion on femal tiger 13:25 < ParahSail1n> goats and sheep can interbreed at low frequency 13:25 < ParahSail1n> but goat on sheep is common enough that geep are a thing from time to time 13:26 < ParahSail1n> i bet if you had a million human-chimp encounters youd get a live birth out of it 13:26 < nmz787> kanzure: might be easier to get girls to fool with animals than genetics... lot less smart girls in the world... getting the men to mess with animals seems different but also not impossible... an old mexican on this ranch i was at years ago was suspected of messing with the sheep 13:27 < cogitokat> wow 13:30 < nmz787> an IVF panel would be interesting I guess 13:31 < nmz787> i mean, it would be interesting for sure 13:31 < nmz787> but is that the whole picture, you still need to implant to see if it would go to term 13:31 < nmz787> right? 13:41 <@heath> cambrian genomics isn't at the state of allowing people to place orders yet... 13:42 < nmz787> heath: no, in march they said they were still sorting oligomers 13:48 -!- wrldpc [~wrldpc@120.88.50.102] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:52 <@kanzure> yeah, at this point i am absolutely convinced that simpler is better 13:52 <@kanzure> no complicated dna machinery. no microfluidics. just something that works. 14:03 < jrayhawk_> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1778686 14:06 < jrayhawk_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia#Extent_of_occurrence it's more than you'd think 14:17 -!- z3d [be5de712@gateway/web/freenode/ip.190.93.231.18] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:19 -!- nmz787 [~nmz787@131.252.130.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:20 -!- nmz787 [~nmz787@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:20 -!- z3d [be5de712@gateway/web/freenode/ip.190.93.231.18] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 14:29 -!- tomkinsc [~tomkinsc@c-24-4-11-202.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 14:33 < cogitokat> That data is from when more people lived on farms. It is probably even less than the Hunt study, today. Also, the real takeaway from that wikipedia page is that men have sex with animals more than women, so maybe there are 'lot less smart boys in the world.' 14:38 -!- anannie [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:46 -!- wrldpc [~wrldpc@120.88.50.102] has quit [Quit: wrldpc] 14:48 -!- tomkinsc [~tomkinsc@c-24-4-11-202.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:49 -!- tomkinsc [~tomkinsc@c-24-4-11-202.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:49 -!- tomkinsc [~tomkinsc@c-24-4-11-202.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:55 -!- tomkinsc [~tomkinsc@c-24-4-11-202.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 14:56 < nmz787> cogitokat: smartness has nothing to do with sex though 14:57 -!- biostudent [~chatzilla@host86-128-181-49.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:57 < nmz787> err, 14:57 < nmz787> scratch that, in the context earlier I guess it probably does 14:58 < nmz787> since men already have a higher prevalence towards beastiality 15:15 <@kanzure> hrmm http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/391496725/the-slingatron-building-a-railroad-to-space?ref=category 15:18 < nmz787> yeah i saw that 15:31 < superkuh> I think it is a bad idea.It solves a problem that doesn't really need to be solved. The max acceleration for ground based kinetic launchers isn't the issue. Modern electronics can stand very high G. 15:33 < superkuh> The cheapest approach would be simple pipes forming a light gas gun using hydrogen. I have been told the problem of ground based kinetic launches is the mass fraction of the rocket engine to circularize the orbit compared to payload. 15:49 < nmz787> Restrictions on cloning and stem cell research have made chimera research an attractive alternative." 15:49 * nmz787 has made chimeric mice cells 15:59 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -] 16:22 <@heath> paperbot: my thing is biological comput 16:22 <@heath> paperbot: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022519382900029 16:22 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag1/10.1016/0022-5193%252882%252990002-9.pdf 16:23 <@heath> ftr, that's not my quote pasted above 16:24 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24 < ParahSail1n> superkuh, yeah, first stage as cannon would probably be pretty cost effective for launching dead stuff 16:25 <@kanzure> heath: what does "biological computing" even mean.. wtf. 16:26 < ParahSail1n> i'd invest it 16:26 <@heath> kanzure: i have no clue 16:27 <@kanzure> heath: i think you're full of it 16:27 <@heath> ? 16:28 <@kanzure> i mean, you've been obsessing over this for a while now, and you still don't even know what it is 16:29 <@kanzure> this is not very efficient obsessing 16:29 <@heath> kk 16:30 -!- cogitokat [~kat@cpe-66-68-190-37.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:31 < nmz787> "By now, he had a second experiment in mind: to inseminate women with chimp sperm. Knowing that no local woman would agree, he planned to do this under the pretext of a medical examination, but the French governor forbade it." 16:31 < nmz787> friggin politicians always interfering 16:33 -!- cogitokat [~kat@cpe-66-68-190-37.austin.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:35 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:39 < nmz787> "When Ivanov put his proposal to the Academy of Sciences he painted it as the experiment that would prove men had evolved from apes. "If he crossed an ape and a human and produced viable offspring then that would mean Darwin was right about how closely related we are," says Etkind. When Ivanov approached the government, he stressed how proving Darwin right would strike a blow against religion, which the Bolsheviks were struggling to stamp out. Succes 16:40 < nmz787> So who are the modern day bolsheviks? 16:47 -!- tomkinsc [~tomkinsc@c-24-4-11-202.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:52 < nmz787> howdy tomkinsc 16:53 < tomkinsc> hello friend 16:53 <@kanzure> hi 16:53 -!- phillyj [~Thunderbi@pool-108-36-3-19.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:53 < nmz787> hi phillyj 16:57 -!- tomkinsc [~tomkinsc@c-24-4-11-202.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 16:58 -!- phillyj [~Thunderbi@pool-108-36-3-19.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: phillyj] 16:59 -!- tomkinsc [~tomkinsc@c-24-4-11-202.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:08 -!- biostudent [~chatzilla@host86-128-181-49.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17 -!- biostudent [~chatzilla@host86-128-181-49.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:32 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:34 -!- biostudent [~chatzilla@host86-128-181-49.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:46 -!- aristarchus [~aristarch@unaffiliated/aristarchus] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:53 -!- makoLime [~mako@wireless-nat-7.auckland.ac.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:01 -!- makoLime [~mako@wireless-nat-7.auckland.ac.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:05 -!- tomkinsc [~tomkinsc@c-24-4-11-202.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 18:09 -!- makoLime [~mako@wireless-nat-7.auckland.ac.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:13 < ParahSail1n> how cheap are gps receivers now 18:13 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14 < ParahSail1n> ah < $5 18:41 -!- phillyj [~Thunderbi@pool-108-36-3-19.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:50 -!- fredox [~chatzilla@c27-253-21-32.brodm4.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:57 -!- phillyj [~Thunderbi@pool-108-36-3-19.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: phillyj] 18:59 -!- makoLime [~mako@wireless-nat-7.auckland.ac.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:01 -!- makoLime [~mako@wireless-nat-7.auckland.ac.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:10 -!- anannie [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:25 -!- joehot [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:33 -!- padz [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:38 < fredox> Practical question regarding DNAsynth machines: Approximately what volume of a given nucleotide solution is used per cycle? 19:38 -!- aristarchus [~aristarch@unaffiliated/aristarchus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:04 -!- makoLime [~mako@wireless-nat-7.auckland.ac.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:05 -!- makoLime [~mako@wireless-nat-7.auckland.ac.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:13 -!- wrldpc [~wrldpc@120.88.50.102] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:35 -!- lupfantomo [~lupfantom@24-159-24-229.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:38 -!- anannie [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:42 -!- lupfantomo [~lupfantom@24-159-24-229.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:52 <@kanzure> fredox: you only need one molecule as long as you can force it into the right spot. but since nobody can, they just talk about yield and avogadro's number and so on. 20:53 < fredox> yes, I mean in a pratical machine what are typical consumption rates? 20:54 <@kanzure> i don't think that matters. 20:54 <@kanzure> if you need more, just ask and i will buy it 20:55 < fredox> i'm thinking re machine design 20:57 <@kanzure> the reaction can work at extremely small volumes, so go wild 20:57 <@kanzure> but don't bother with microfluidics 20:57 < yashgaroth> yeah you're more limited by how little volume you can reliably control 20:58 <@kanzure> please do not design a machine that requires 200 liters per base pair of oligo... 20:59 < fredox> could you give me a ballpark example of a current commercial machine 20:59 <@kanzure> no. in fact, it's best if you ignore current machines completely because all of their ideas are bad. 21:01 <@kanzure> i guess yashgaroth might be willing to give you some numbers, but imho the current details don't matter at all 21:01 <@kanzure> some of the design questions are interesting though 21:01 < yashgaroth> hey man that's chem I don't do chem, but I'll just go ahead and say 100nL 21:01 <@kanzure> like whether or not to make a "multi-channel" monster 21:01 <@kanzure> i sort of doubt it's 100 nL per reaction step 21:02 <@kanzure> have you seen their tubes? the surface area of the tubes alone would eat that up. 21:02 <@kanzure> i guess it might be under pressure 21:02 < fredox> i would have thought it much larger than that 21:02 < yashgaroth> I'm imagining the lower limit for 6 tubes into a reaction vessel with non-microfluidic tech, not those '80's contraptions 21:03 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: then how do you explain the huge microarray designs. 21:03 <@kanzure> oh, tubes. 21:03 <@heath> fhttp://lammps.sandia.gov/ 21:03 <@kanzure> no i meant erm.. plastic tubes for pumping things around. not tubes. 21:03 <@heath> (25 July 2013) The 3rd LAMMPS workshop is now 2 weeks away (Aug 6-8), here in Albuquerque, NM. 21:03 < yashgaroth> hell if I can transfer 1uL reliably myself surely a machine can manage an order of magnitude better 21:03 <@heath> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uejPUnfuuw 21:03 <@heath> .title 21:03 < yoleaux> Self-assembly of DNA icosahedron - YouTube 21:03 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: haha but you have no idea who designed those machines. they could have been idiots. 21:04 <@kanzure> http://www.flickr.com/photos/64866643@N02/8448886468/ "One of the world's first commercially produced DNA/RNA synthesizers, this instrument is from the early period of DNA synthesis." (1982) 21:05 < gradstudentbot> You know, I can just do consulting. 21:05 < fredox> i was guessing somewhere in the uL range as a reasonably simple piece of engineering 21:05 < yashgaroth> like an HPLC pump can do 1uL easy, but then packing them into a large array is difficult 21:06 < yashgaroth> if you have the tiniest tubing and an adorable peristaltic pump, 1uL at a time is more reasonable 21:06 < abetusk> fenn, thanks. If I remember correctl, there is such a device on the ShapeOko 21:06 < abetusk> *correctly 21:06 <@kanzure> you have to decide if you want to build something that uses a microarray or not 21:06 -!- makoLime [~mako@wireless-nat-7.auckland.ac.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:07 < fredox> nah thats much farther down the track 21:07 <@kanzure> there are certain design constraints of this sort of system that i bet everyone else has ignored and just said "yeah, use a microarray" or "yeah, just put some tubules in it and pump liquids around" instead of actually considering the problem. 21:07 < yashgaroth> and also how efficient your downstream step is, since if you get one femtogram of oligo there's not much you can do with it 21:07 <@kanzure> not sure you would be able to confirm a single femtogram 21:08 < yashgaroth> quantification is included in 'downstream steps' yeah 21:09 < fredox> cycle time is the next obvious parameter 21:10 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: i wonder if i should get heath or nate to manually do oligo synthesis with a pipette, just to get the hang of it 21:10 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: and then maybe they will get so frustrated that they will scribble out a better way to do it 21:10 <@kanzure> it seems sort of torturous even for 4 or 5 bp.. 21:11 < yashgaroth> I thought you need a contained vessel or something because ambient humidity 21:11 < fredox> do you have any specific goals regarding machine synth rates and capacity? 21:12 <@kanzure> none whatsoever. the primary motivator for me is cost. i am pretty sure machines that do these steps don't have to cost $50k-$250k. 21:12 <@kanzure> might cost $50k in development but i don't care 21:13 < fredox> i am certain a basic machine could be built for a few hundred dollars 21:13 <@kanzure> yes 21:13 <@kanzure> well, no, i'm not certain of that 21:14 <@kanzure> but it seems much more realistic to me 21:14 <@kanzure> it's not like all of your parts are made of plutonium or something 21:14 <@kanzure> oh wait, what's the currently expensive element these days? blast where is united nuclear when you need it.. 21:14 < gradstudentbot> Nobody is even going to read this paper. 21:14 -!- wrldpc [~wrldpc@120.88.50.102] has quit [Quit: wrldpc] 21:17 <@kanzure> fredox: if you wanna get those parts, let me know. 21:17 <@heath> [23:10:16] yashgaroth: i wonder if i should get heath or nate to manually do oligo synthesis with a pipette, just to get the hang of it 21:17 <@heath> yes 21:17 * heath willingly vounteers 21:18 * heath sleeps first 21:18 < fredox> kanzure: parts? 21:20 <@kanzure> fredox: yeah, i could cover things like a BOM and reagents. 21:20 <@kanzure> fredox: in particular this deal would only apply if you want to make an open source synthesizer. 21:21 < fredox> thats the plan 21:21 < fredox> could be handy in the future, though i should mention i am in australia 21:21 <@kanzure> i wont hold that against you 21:21 <@kanzure> where in australia? 21:22 < fredox> melbourne 21:22 <@kanzure> have you gone to cchs? 21:23 <@kanzure> i also highly recommend showing up here: http://www.meetup.com/emergence-24/ (tell them i sent you and they will nod solemnly) 21:23 < fredox> no, i had not seen that before 21:24 <@kanzure> there is also chris pendelbury and adam ford (although adam has gone to the dark side (managing magazines for hplus, a transhumanist anal ointment cream company)) 21:25 * kanzure thinks 21:25 <@kanzure> that about exhausts my homies in melbourne. 21:25 <@kanzure> http://www.hackmelbourne.org/ 21:36 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: was there a good reason against doing a 4096-element macro library? 21:37 < yashgaroth> not aside from the initial startup cost and the unprovenness...wait, maybe something about the lower limit on ligase 21:38 <@kanzure> no i think it might have been geometric/space dimension constraints 21:38 <@kanzure> like.. where are you going to put 4096 tubes. 21:38 <@kanzure> i mean, 4096 vials that are connected to tubes that get cleaned. or something. 21:39 < yashgaroth> you can get microtiter plates with a thousand wells 21:39 <@kanzure> and then do micropipettor selector arm robot? 21:39 < yashgaroth> yeah, since tubing to connect to those wells becomes unwieldy 21:39 -!- randallagordon [~randall@67-5-174-150.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:39 <@kanzure> if you have a 4096-well plate then you might as well just always synthesize from scratch i think, because you can tolerate errors earlier in the process or somtehing 21:40 <@kanzure> tbh i was thinking a system with no moving parts would be easier to debug. but this might be "grass is always greener" influencing me. 21:40 <@kanzure> *something 21:40 < yashgaroth> the main advantage of the library was that the oligos are self-replicating, though you'd need some analysis on whether it's cheaper in the long run 21:41 <@kanzure> reagent cost comes later imho 21:41 <@kanzure> right now the cost of a synthesizer dwarfs the cost of reagents for even a simple protein 21:41 < yashgaroth> also you could maybe do light-based printing into the wells like for microarrays, and hope that incorrect oligos simply wouldn't get ligated during assembly 21:41 -!- randallagordon [~randall@71-34-73-76.ptld.qwest.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:42 <@kanzure> washing a microarray correctly seems really hard and uninteresting to me 21:42 <@kanzure> unless you can use a high powered laser to evaporate everything 21:42 <@kanzure> cambrian genomics is using a laser to move beads out of one well and into (something unspecified) 21:43 <@kanzure> anyway, no, i think that complicates it really 21:43 < yashgaroth> was that optical tweezing or are they being secretive, I forget 21:44 <@kanzure> "We're basically building a lot of custom optical / sequencing / laser gear to sample single molecules of a microarray pool and to cherry-pick out the correct ones. Instead of enzymatic tricks, we're doing physical separation upfront of the good from the bad, while simultaneously de-scrambling the ~10^5-10^6 pools into defined small assembly sets for very rapid, very high-throughput assembly of larger kilobase pieces." 21:45 < yashgaroth> if you have a tiny-scale oligo synthesizer instead of a library, you can still incorporate the ligase-based assembly but you're just getting closer to traditional assembly 21:45 <@kanzure> "The cost of phosphoramidites is really low (at a minimum) given that they're produced in china. The container the phosphoramidites come in can be more expensive than the contents. CpG isn't that expensive either... I mean let's take it to a ridiculous limit-point: an oligo synthesis run costs a few hundred dollars in reagents, maybe a thousand. You're working with a ~mole of material. Divide that by avogadro's number. 1e3/6e23 = about ... 21:45 <@kanzure> ... a tenth of an attocent per monomer. If you had a magic daemon that coud assemble single-molecules, your reagent cost for a 100mer would be about 10 attocents. (We don't know how to make magic daemons yet, but I suspect that physics does allow for a mesoscopically-coupled polymerase that could act as a decently accurate 'molecular printer' if you coupled it to some single-molecule sequencing feedback.) Why does a bulk reagent limit the ... 21:45 <@kanzure> ... ultimate cost? If you're efficient it doesn't have to." 21:45 <@kanzure> "Reagents are expensive when you waste them. For traditional gene synthesis, the cost of oligos does dominate. Even the lowest-scale bulk synthesis reactions make about 1000x more material than is needed for a synthesis reaction. Microarray synthesis scales usage way down (though the amount of dna on a microarray spot is actually too low to use directly for reliable assembly, so some amount of post-processing is required) However, ... 21:45 <@kanzure> ... microarrays jumble everything together and make the error-correction problem much more severe." 21:45 <@kanzure> "With regards to enzymes/reagents don't think that the price you pay for them is going to be the price an industrial purchaser is going to pay- most endusers of anything in biology are paying large margins. What you're paying for as an enduser isn't the stuff in the tube, it's the quality control that guarantees the stuff in the tube will do what you hope it will, as well as the convenience of that little tube shipped to you the moment you ... 21:45 <@kanzure> ... need it." 21:45 <@kanzure> "Don't get fixated on a single aspect of the cost structure. Ingots of ultrapure silicon aren't cheap, but their cost is only distantly related to the price of a cpu. If you have a relatively fixed amount of cost for people and machines and reagents, the only way you get improved cost per unit is by making a shitload more units by using more efficient processes. That's the idea." 21:47 <@kanzure> well anyway, i don't remember the single molecule stuff there. i think their idea might have changed once or twice. 21:47 <@kanzure> i don't particularly care though 21:48 < yashgaroth> dna synthesis is inherently small-scale for the next decade but I hope he's not relying too much on economies of scale 21:48 <@kanzure> i think repliacting something more traditional (and then proceeding to hate it) is a good course of action 21:48 <@kanzure> *replicating 21:49 <@kanzure> hey so, for yeast cloning, what's the growth medium? 21:50 <@kanzure> for some reason i always thought you meant "throw some yeast into a pile of dNTPs" but this doesn't make any sense. 21:51 < yashgaroth> I haven't done much yeast work but they'll eat pretty much anything 21:51 < yashgaroth> gonna be lazy and say powdered yeast extract 21:56 <@kanzure> ~, 21:56 <@kanzure> oops 22:01 -!- ryankarason [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:03 -!- ryankarason [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:04 -!- anannie [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:10 -!- ryankarason [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:12 -!- ryankarason [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:17 -!- anannie [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-133.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:32 -!- nicedice [~nicedice@unaffiliated/nicedice] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:35 -!- anannie [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:43 -!- Adillian [~Adillian@124.43.113.252] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:43 -!- anannie [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47 -!- anannie [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:50 -!- klafka_ [~klafka@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:51 -!- Adillian [~Adillian@124.43.113.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:52 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:53 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:04 -!- anannie [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15 -!- Adillian [~Adillian@112.134.157.242] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:23 -!- anannie [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:42 -!- anannie [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48 -!- anannie [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:57 -!- wrldpc [~wrldpc@120.88.50.102] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:58 -!- anannie [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] --- Log closed Tue Jul 30 00:00:40 2013