--- Log opened Tue Aug 13 00:00:40 2013
--- Day changed Tue Aug 13 2013
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07:48 <@kanzure> beep boop
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08:29 < drazak> kanzure: I dunno who this jewsin guy is but I like his post
08:31 <@kanzure> he sometimes shows up on irc but i haven't figured out his pattern
08:31 <@kanzure> i think he was really into diybio a long time ago but then decided to get a job somewhere working in biotech
08:31 <@kanzure> naturally this kills the soul
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08:32 < drazak> hardly
08:37 < drazak> kanzure: didn't realize there was already a re: thread :/
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09:12 <@kanzure> drazak: it is permissible to have multiple replies to a single email, relax :P
09:12 < drazak> yeah wasn't sure if it goes in the same page on the google group or what
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09:16 <@kanzure> google groups is all sorts of broken. i would suggest not using it.
09:16 < gradstudentbot> Sure, I'd love to switch into colorectal.
09:16 <@kanzure> btw the reason why there's a separate thread on google groups is because that other guy's (sebastian's) email client is misconfigured. google groups is incapable of parsing his headers.
09:17 < drazak> kanzure: ahhh
09:18 < drazak> I'm just using gmail in gmail :/
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09:45 <@kanzure> sure.
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10:41 < nmz787> can you have a PDF template that you shove plaintext into to make it look pretty?
10:41 < nmz787> programmatically
10:42 < ParahSailin> PDF can be generated algorithmically
10:42 < nmz787> i'm thinking wiki template for DIY articles, and a button that converts the wiki template (filled in with good stuff) into a PDF to download
10:42 < drazak> yeah
10:42 < drazak> that's a thing
10:43 <@kanzure> i don't think a wiki template is a good idea, because wiki text is highly non-parseable
10:44 <@kanzure> and if you want parseable wikis you end up with semantic mediawiki, which is just a revision control system for json on top of wikitext on top of mysql, which is all kinds of fucked up and wrong
10:44 <@kanzure> morally wrong, and technically wrong
10:44 < nmz787> i don't believe that, there are format tags
10:44 <@kanzure> have you ever used semantic mediawiki?
10:44 < nmz787> wikipedia is great.
10:44 <@kanzure> it's awful man
10:44 <@kanzure> it's hardly machine parseable
10:44 < drazak> I really don't care if it's machine parseable
10:44 < ParahSailin> wiki markup is parseable, just lots of syntax in it
10:44 <@kanzure> everyone who has ever written a wikipedia bot knows how bad wikipedia is
10:45 <@kanzure> the only way to parse wikitext is to run it through its htmlizer
10:45 <@kanzure> why not just use an actual format though?
10:45 < ParahSailin> i think its a context-free grammar
10:45 <@kanzure> and don't store it in a revision control system smashed on top of mysql
10:45 <@kanzure> either choose sql or version control, not both..
10:46 < nmz787> a wiki seems like the right interface
10:46 < nmz787> idk about implementation
10:46 < drazak> kanzure: because people can edit a wiki really easily, it lets you link parts together easily, and it's familiar
10:46 <@kanzure> drazak: i don't want anything to do with software like mediawiki and i'll disown you
10:46 < nmz787> otherwise, WYSIWYG interface with wiki-like history and talk page
10:46 <@kanzure> i think ikiwiki is okay, but really those wikis are secretly just git
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10:46 <@kanzure> talk page is just another wiki page, you know
10:47 < gradstudentbot> Oh man, that's a great scrabble word. I got to write that down.
10:47 <@kanzure> wiki-like history is just a poorly implemented version control system
10:47 < nmz787> I think you're too concerned with implementation at this stage, this room can implement pretty much anything, the interface is the deal make or break-er
10:48 <@kanzure> no, you're wrong. interfaces can be added later. if the implementation is wrong the data becomes useless.
10:48 < ParahSailin> interface of what
10:48 < nmz787> some ppl want a more standardized way to share DIY experiments
10:48 < drazak> kanzure: nobody is going to use what you are suggesting man, people have a hard enough time doing science, making it harder by saying 'report it in a way you don't understand and can't interact with well" is stupid
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10:48 < ParahSailin> nobody's doing any useful "DIY experiments" worthy of sharing
10:49 < ParahSailin> make that part happen first
10:49 < nmz787> kanzure: I have to disagree with you, the interface is what people use
10:49 < nmz787> i get what you mean about the backend
10:49 < drazak> ParahSailin: I think there are some people who are and only talking about it a little
10:49 < nmz787> but you don't need a good backend if no one uses the front anyway
10:50 < nmz787> the DIY gene gun was great
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10:52 < ParahSailin> someone made a gene gun?
10:53 < chris_99> didn't a gene gun start off as just a pellet gun
10:53 < drazak> old wasn't it?
10:53 < drazak> like 2-3 years ago
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10:56 < nmz787> http://www.museion.ku.dk/whats-on/exhibitions/biohacking-do-try-this-at-home/
10:56 < nmz787> https://labitat.dk/wiki/Genegun
10:56 < nmz787> http://hackteria.org/?p=1979
10:57 < nmz787> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/diybio/r%C3%BCdiger-trojok-gene-gun.pdf
11:02 < ParahSailin> looks like they had no problem sharing their results
11:03 < nmz787> using a wiki!!!
11:03 < nmz787> oh no!
11:03 < nmz787> and pdf
11:04 < nmz787> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/130813/ncomms3307/full/ncomms3307.html
11:04 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fncomms3307
11:07 < nmz787> third ezproxy time's the charm http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/Repopulation_of_decellularized_mouse_heart_with_human_induced_pluripotent_stem_cell-derived_cardiovascular_progenitor_cells.pdf
11:07 < nmz787> "Repopulation of decellularized mouse heart with human induced pluripotent stem cell-derived cardiovascular progenitor cells"
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11:46 < nmz787> Noryokusha: hi! glad to see another chemist in here (I'm not one, drazak is I guess too)
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12:17 <@kanzure> nmz787: just because there's an interface doesn't mean it's a good idea
12:18 <@kanzure> drazak: just because semantic mediawiki is easy to understand as a user does not mean it's a good idea.
12:18 <@kanzure> drazak: that's poor reasoning and you know it..
12:19 < nmz787> i guess I meantI wanted to talk about the interface, not the backend, right now
12:19 < nmz787> the backend will happen, but only if there's a need... the interface needs the backend, the people need the interface
12:21 <@kanzure> what people? for doing what?
12:23 < ParahSailin> so that all the thousands of people doing useful and interesting diy experiments but can't figure out how to upload a pdf to a mailing list or pastebin finally have a place to put it
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12:32 < nmz787> right
12:32 < nmz787> i bet you could even sell it to real biologists with money
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12:41 <@kanzure> which biologists have money?
12:41 < ParahSailin> jmil
12:41 < jmil> sup dawg
12:41 < jmil> oh lolz
12:42 < jmil> o/ stieruridir whats up
12:42 <@kanzure> i really don't think jmil would pay for a wiki template for lab journaling
12:42 <@kanzure> but even if he would... why would you want to make that?
12:43 < jmil> a lot of people use confluence kanzure. also openwetware is sufficient for most things
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12:45 < nmz787> paperbot: http://cshprotocols.cshlp.org/content/2007/8/pdb.top11.full
12:46 < nmz787> a lot of biologists need tools, i like making tools
12:48 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/53b07754fa8ee02f9d7abec3d1a1500d.txt
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13:02 <@kanzure> nmz787: that wasn't what i asked
13:03 < nmz787> "why would you want to make that?"
13:03 < nmz787> "i like making tools"
13:04 < nmz787> the journals already offer latex templates
13:04 < nmz787> so makingsomething to ease data injection to the template doesn't seem terribly hard
13:04 < nmz787> figuring out the right interface seems to be what would make or break something like this
13:05 <@kanzure> but if you like making tools, aren't there much better tools that you could spend your time on?
13:05 <@kanzure> but anyway, my other question was more important (which biologists have money?)
13:05 <@kanzure> i don't think jmil has money, and he already said what he uses
13:05 < gradstudentbot> Dude, you contaminated my experiment.
13:06 < nmz787> sure there are better tools, that's why I'm mainly concentrating on microfluidics and DNA synth... but that doesn't mean a paper writing tool wouldn't be helpful... I failed classes because I don't like writing papers
13:07 < nmz787> I blame that more on data collection PITA though
13:07 < nmz787> specifically this stupid spectrometer that had sudoku and tetris on it,  but no sane method for exporting data to USB drives
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13:38 < nmz787> anyone read chinese in here?
13:38 < nmz787> if so, what does it say inside the middle square with lines coming out of the sides? http://img04.taobaocdn.com/imgextra/i4/407779758/T2lAGAXlNbXXXXXXXX_!!407779758.jpg
13:40 < chris_99> it's just a stepper motor driver isn't it, what's the circuit for?
13:41 < nmz787> sure
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13:45 < chris_99> got it
13:45 < chris_99> LB1848MC - ON Semiconductor
13:45 < chris_99> or at least that matches the pins
13:49 < nmz787> hmm
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13:52 < nmz787> it's slighlty cheaper than an allegro
13:53 < chris_99> whatcha making
13:54 < nmz787> oh it doesn't do any of the microstepping or mixed-decay stuff allegro does
13:55 < nmz787> or maybe i'm mixing up the allegro i was looking at
13:55 < nmz787> one had control, one was just some H bridges
13:55 < nmz787> working on smell-o-vision
13:55 < nmz787> and also thinking about pumps for microfluidics
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13:56 < chris_99> smell-o-vision? as in generating arbitrary smells somehow
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13:57 < nmz787> sort of
13:57 < nmz787> using an array of 10 or 20 spices
13:57 < nmz787> and mixing them
13:58 < nmz787> bought some cheap linear steppers from aliexpress
13:58 < nmz787> and some 1 inch wide lay-flat plastic tubing
13:58 < chris_99> sounds cool
13:58 < chris_99> you mean powered spices or some kind of fluid made from them
13:58 < nmz787> which is ~2/3 inch diameter
13:58 < chris_99> *powdered
13:59 < nmz787> yeah powdered
13:59 < nmz787> tubing is cheap, like $2 per 20 spice channels
13:59 < nmz787> for several feet
13:59 < nmz787> stppers were like $1 each
13:59 < chris_99> so after you've mixed the spicers what do you do with them?
13:59 < chris_99> *spices
14:00 < nmz787> depending on the current I might be able to use shift registers to power the steppers
14:00 < nmz787> so 1 spice per channel
14:00 < nmz787> i'm thinking of stuffing cotton balls into the tubing, then adding the spice powder, and connecting this to an air manifold which is connected to an air compressor
14:01 < nmz787> linear actuator downstream of cotton
14:01 < nmz787> to pinch off air fow
14:01 < nmz787> flow
14:01 < nmz787> then thinking of a mixer manifold at the end of the line before blowing into someone's face
14:02 < chris_99> so sort of spraying the powder out right?
14:02 < nmz787> or maybe have all the tubes connected to a helmet rather than a mixer
14:02 < nmz787> nah the cotton should prevent particulate
14:02 < chris_99> hmm, would there be much smell though
14:02 < chris_99> with the cotton
14:02 < nmz787> sure
14:02 < nmz787> open any jar of spices in your kitchen and take a sniff of the lid
14:03 < chris_99> hmm true
14:03 < nmz787> cotton willl adsorb some smell, but it will saturate
14:03 < chris_99> sounds a fun project :)
14:04 < drazak> what are you making
14:06 < ParahSailin> 驱芯片
14:06 < ParahSailin> 驱动芯片
14:07 < ParahSailin> unicode doesnt show up well in my terminal
14:07 <@kanzure> you might not have fonts installed
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14:08 < ParahSailin> i use source code pro on my terminal
14:08 < ParahSailin> im sure if i used a different font non-roman stuff might look better but then the roman stuff wouldnt look as nice
14:09 < ParahSailin> λ just shows up as an x-ed out box though so maybe i should do something about it
14:10 < nmz787> ?
14:10 < nmz787> unicode?
14:10 < nmz787> someone can't read me?
14:11 < chris_99> anyone ever used high amperage LiPo batteries before like 100ah
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14:41 < heath> did halcyon molecular already spend 20 million in funding?
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14:42 < heath> and then fold?
14:43 <@kanzure> i dunno what the actual status is, but the word on the street is that they folded
14:43 <@kanzure> i dunno if they spent all of their money
14:43 <@kanzure> they had an equipment liquidation event at one point
14:46 < heath> nmz787: re: failing classes, sounds like you could have used org-mode and auctex :)
14:47 <@kanzure> auctex?
14:48 < heath> https://www.gnu.org/software/auctex/
14:48 < heath> quick way of writing latex
14:48 <@bkero> Anybody ever show you LyX?
14:48 < heath> yeah
14:49 < heath> i used kile before auctex
14:50 < nmz787> orgmode?
14:51 < gradstudentbot> I am busy researching.
14:51 < nmz787> hah
14:51 <@kanzure> orgmode is an emacs feature for todo addicts
14:51 <@kanzure> i hear it is blissful
14:52 < nmz787> hmm, i don't even know normal emacs
14:53  * heath prefers emacs with evil-mode on by default
14:56 <@kanzure> well, you're supposed to be working on learning vim, aren't you?
14:56  * kanzure looks sternly
15:02 < nmz787> yessir
15:02 <@kanzure> did you try vimtutor?
15:03 < nmz787> no i need to install it
15:03 <@kanzure> it's just a command you type into your shell
15:03 <@kanzure> no way
15:03 <@kanzure> what distribution are you on?
15:03 < nmz787> win7
15:03 < nmz787> :P
15:03 < nmz787> its on gnusha tho
15:03 <@kanzure> did you install vim?
15:03 < nmz787> i just checked
15:03 < nmz787> no
15:03 < nmz787> i was using vim on some ubuntu server the other day when vimdiff came up
15:03 <@kanzure> i think it's even distributed with vim in cygwin if you're using cygwin in win7
15:03 < nmz787> thanks to mercurial
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15:04 < nmz787> ahh, i'm using msysgit to have bash, and it seems to have installed vim too
15:04 <@kanzure> i highly recommend cygwin over msysgit
15:05 <@kanzure> or if your box can handle it, a virtual machine
15:05 < nmz787> i think it uses cygwin
15:05 < nmz787> yeah I have a few vms
15:05 < nmz787> but they're slow
15:05 < nmz787> (er
15:05 < nmz787> )
15:05 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, I'm familiar with the technique. Sort of.
15:07 < nmz787> "We compile Git as a pure MinGW program, though, i.e. a program without any link-dependencies on anything but standard Windows libraries. So unless you need to use any parts of Git that are still implemented only as shell or Perl scripts, you can get away with running plain git.exe."
15:07 < heath> anyone want to make a market making bot with me?
15:07 < heath> http://imgur.com/a/J8DQz
15:07 < nmz787> kanzure: I don't actually use MSys (I didn't know it existed actually)
15:07 < heath> clearly money to be had
15:07 < nmz787> kanzure: msysgit was a one download installer to get git on here
15:07 <@kanzure> nmz787: have you ever used cygwin?
15:07 < nmz787> err
15:07 < nmz787> bash
15:08 < nmz787> i think i tried like 10 years ago
15:08 < nmz787> then just used wine
15:08 <@kanzure> imho cygwin tends to be more stable than wine
15:08 <@kanzure> also wine wasn't sold to redhat for $600 million
15:09 < nmz787> kanzure: but is getting bash via cygwin a one-download and one-click to install on windows?
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15:09 < nmz787> when I wanted bash on windows a year ago, msysgit seemed like the easiest solution
15:09 < nmz787> i also can't stand cmd.exe so I use console2 and load bash immediately
15:10 < heath> surely you all can see the those price discrepancies
15:10 <@kanzure> no, you will have to download http://cygwin.com/setup-x86.exe and then either click through the installer or setup.exe -q -n --site http://mirrors.kernel.org/sourceware/cygwin/ --root "C:\\temp\\cygwin" -l "C:\\temp\\cygwin"\packages -P wget,openssh,vim,git
15:10 < heath> s/the//
15:10 <@kanzure> so it's like 2 or 3 clicks
15:10 <@kanzure> background: i've been writing python against cygwin all day for a paid gig
15:10 < gradstudentbot> Oh great, my paper got accepted with no revisions. Nice.
15:11 < nmz787> hmm
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15:23 < ParahSailin> cygwin is now 64bit
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15:24 < nmz787> jmil: any advice/tips/contacts to a paramedic/epidemiologist/bio b.s. friend that starts med school at UT Houston next week?
15:24 < nmz787> s/to/for/
15:25 < ParahSailin> rent's cheap in the third ward
15:25 < heath> nobody? wow, alright
15:25 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: cygwin has both 32 and 64 bit builds. by default i'm still using 32 bit builds. i don't see a particular reason to jump to 64 bit builds.
15:26 <@kanzure> heath: i have an uncle that's into trading software, but honestly there's a lot easier money doing other things (like programming)
15:26 < nmz787> he's renting a condo
15:26 < nmz787> already
15:27 < nmz787> will bike to school, has a car with parking etc
15:27 < nmz787> so the basics are covered
15:27 < nmz787> but he doesn't really know anyone
15:27 < heath> write a market making bot, make sure it doesn't trade with a loss, and let it run. i don't know what could be easier. the only issue with trucoin is they don't have an api endpoint, and one of the devs didn't even know why anyone would ever want one -_-
15:27 < nmz787> says most of the other med students are total n00bs
15:27 < heath> you would have to write it using phantomjs or similar
15:28 < nmz787> and most are super unliberal
15:28 < nmz787> conservatinve
15:28 < nmz787> conservative
15:28 < gradstudentbot> Sure, I've been spending a lot of time at a pub.... well, pubmed at least.
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15:31 < heath> http://arxiv.org/abs/1112.0076
15:31 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Bandit%20Market%20Makers.pdf
15:31 <@kanzure> heath: what are you trading against on trucoin? i don't get it.
15:32 < heath> it's a metaexchange between mt.gox, btc-e, and bitstamp
15:32 < heath> the first rt meta-exchange
15:32 < heath> and there's a 10USD price discrepancy between each exchange
15:32 < heath> circa 10
15:33 < ParahSailin> so you're telling me there's a risk-free arbitrage in the most overheated currency speculation market?
15:34 < heath> you can trade between all three in under a minute and have your money secured in USD in under 4
15:35 < heath> if you do it manually...
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15:36 < Noryokusha> just got home nmz787
15:36 < Noryokusha> im not a polymer chemistry
15:36 < Noryokusha> my masters will mostly be in organic and electrochemistry
15:36 < Noryokusha> but i can learn!!
15:36 < Noryokusha> I
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15:50 < nmz787> hi Noryokusha
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15:53 <@kanzure> heath: why is it so fast? bitcoin has a 15 minute delay. where's the site?
15:54 < heath> trucoinrt.com
15:54 < heath> it's invite only atm
15:54 <@kanzure> can you get me an invite?
15:54 < heath> yeah, sec
15:55 < heath> should have something coming your way soon
15:59 <@kanzure> heath: do i have to have 3 accounts on each one?
15:59 <@kanzure> erm, i mean, do i have to have accounts on each exchange?
15:59 < heath> at least two of them
15:59 < heath> that process can take awhile
15:59 <@kanzure> do you have accounts on those exchanges?
16:00 < heath> yes
16:00 < heath> minus bitstamp
16:00 <@kanzure> what's wrong with bitstamp?
16:00 <@kanzure> oh i see
16:02 < nmz787> Noryokusha: so you did chemistry in undergrad?
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16:20 < heath> Noryokusha: ping
16:20 < heath> nmz787: yes he did
16:21 < heath> gradstudentbot: say something for Noryokusha
16:21 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, that's a really good question. I don't know, but I'll have to look into that.
16:21 < heath> nmz787: there you go :)
16:23 < Noryokusha> sorry, was way for a bit
16:23 < Noryokusha> yes i did nmz787
16:23 < Noryokusha> it was a really general education though. no specialization.
16:23 < Noryokusha> i'm getting more specialized in organic chem and echem
16:23 < Noryokusha> and soon computational work
16:27 < Noryokusha> hmm apparently you cant pm without registration?
16:27 < Noryokusha> i got a funny message
16:30 < heath> /query nickserv register
16:33 < Noryokusha> thanks got it!
16:38 < nmz787> cool
16:39 < nmz787> bbl
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16:40 <@kanzure> why is this able to offer 4% interest? https://perfectmoney.is/
16:40 -!- AshleyWaffle___ [~quassel@c-76-121-59-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:40 <@kanzure> hong kong doesn't generally have high interest rates
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16:41 < ParahSail1n> bitcoin ponzi scheme?
16:43 < heath> did anyone ever read pauling's college chemistry textbook?
16:43 < heath> came out in ~1950
16:43 -!- AshleyWaffle [~quassel@unaffiliated/anastasiawyatt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
16:43 < heath> it's an extremely light read
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16:45 <@kanzure> ParahSail1n: seems unrelated to bitcoins
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16:45 < ParahSail1n> i dont see 4% interest on that page
16:45 <@kanzure> https://perfectmoney.is/fees.html
16:46 <@kanzure> 4% per year
16:46 <@kanzure> Unit 1213, 12/F, Wing On Plaza, 62 Mody Road
16:46 <@kanzure> Tsim Sha Tsui East, Kowloon, Hong Kong
16:47 < ParahSail1n> probably because they charge so much to wire in and out
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16:48 < ParahSail1n> and of course that referral link screams ponzi scheme
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16:54 < Noryokusha> test graduatestudentbot
16:54 < Noryokusha> err
16:54 < Noryokusha> test gradstudentbot
16:54 < gradstudentbot> Nope, that's not even remotely possible.
16:56 <@kanzure> ParahSail1n: yeah i think you're right
16:57 < ParahSail1n> is there some reason you came upon that place?
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17:16 <@kanzure> btc-e
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17:58 < heath> kanzure: have you used the phatomjs node module much?
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18:19 < nmz787> heath: i haven't, is the 1950 edition /the/ edition to read?
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18:21 < heath> nmz787: if /the/ = "the only", then yes :)
18:24 < heath> oh, i'm wrong again
18:24 < heath> supposedly there's an "extensively revised and updated third edition"
18:24 < heath> .title http://amzn.com/0486656225
18:24 < yoleaux> Amazon.com: General Chemistry (Dover Books on Chemistry) (9780486656229): Linus Pauling: Books
18:27 < gradstudentbot> I'll need to pull an all-nighter.
18:28 < heath> gradstudentbot: it isn't that hard
18:28 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, I couldn't repeat that.
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18:34 < anannie> gradstudentbot: Red bull is your friend.
18:34 < gradstudentbot> You know, I hear you make more money being a garbage man.
18:37 < brownies> gradstudentbot: get a real job!
18:37 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, it's the new grad student's fault.
18:41 < anannie> gradstudentbot: How so?
18:41 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, but his project was so easy.
18:42 < heath> Noryokusha: gradstudentbot is dissing on you
18:42 < gradstudentbot> If I was your endoplasmic reticulum, would you want me smooth or would you want me rough?
18:43 < heath> gradstudentbot: haven't been on any dates lately, huh?
18:43 < gradstudentbot> If I break my arm, do I still have to present tomorrow?
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18:53 < panax> http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/05/22/matt-groening-on-graduate-school/
18:55 <@kanzure> heath: the phantomjs module in npm is wrong and broken. don't use it. phantomjs is a separate js engine. on the level of node. so don't combine the two.
18:56 < heath> okay
18:56 < heath> it's frustrating
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19:09 <@kanzure> heath: yeah, don't use it
19:09 <@kanzure> heath: just write normal javascript in phantomjs, and use require(), you can even use npm
19:37  * heath wonders why https://github.com/ariya/phantomjs/ doesn't have language statistics above the list of files
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20:09 < jmil> nmz787: advice about what?
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20:54 < cvilla> hi, can i use your wifi without dyings pls just moved in and am waiting on it here @kanzure
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