--- Log opened Thu Aug 15 00:00:56 2013
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01:35 < fenn> bubblegum crisis has got to be the most technofabulous anime i've ever seen: powered exoskeletons, gas turbine motorcycles, rotating space tethers, brain machine interfaces, rampaging nanotech, analog synth and zombie robots
01:39 <@bkero> I'm back in Portland. :3
01:39 <@bkero> Watching Silver Spoon on crunchyroll because *shrug*
02:04 < Noryokusha> fenn check out the legend of galactic heroes
02:04 < Noryokusha> another great sci fi anime
02:18 < fenn> bleck.. looks dumb, and icky
02:20 < fenn> guys with poofy hair and naval style space battles
02:21 < fenn> though i can't say i've ever seen an axe fight in outer space
02:26 < rigel> eh?
02:26 < rigel> ptown?
02:26 < rigel> portloo?
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02:53 < Noryokusha> lol dumb and ciky?
02:53 < Noryokusha> lol
02:53 < Noryokusha> err icky*
02:53 < Noryokusha> of all the animes to call dumb and icky..
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03:11 < fenn> i just don't get the whole prussian emperor of space thing
03:16 < fenn> also http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/misconceptions.php
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04:25 < Noryokusha> fenn its just the series lore
04:25 < Noryokusha> they explain it later on
04:25 < Noryokusha> but its no more silly than a lot of the premises of many shows
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06:48 < fenn> oh apparently i was watching "bubblegum crisis tokyo 2040" which is a different thing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPXOlHsARrs&list=SP3C64C9F0581744B6
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07:14  * heath waves gm
07:16 <@kanzure> i forgot to visit someone in toronto and now i feel bad
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07:16 <@kanzure> i should just go back
07:19 < fenn> i thought you were moving to detroit, that's nearby right?
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07:19 < heath> Noryokusha is in toronto
07:19 <@kanzure> definitely not moving to detroit
07:19 <@kanzure> just visiting and plotting
07:20 <@kanzure> oh, detroit to toronto is 4 hours by car. might as well have flown.
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07:25 <@kanzure> xLotus: hi
07:26 < xLotus> Hello there, how are you?
07:27 <@kanzure> do you want something?
07:30 < fenn> are you content with the state of things?
07:32 < xLotus> Good question, I didn't really come here for anything but maybe there is something
07:33 < xLotus> What is this channel for?
07:34 < fenn> taking over the world
07:35 < xLotus> Neat, can I help out?
07:35 < fenn> what can you do?
07:37 < xLotus> Breathe, Eat, Sleep, and I guess that's about it am I worthy?
07:37 <@kanzure> how did you get here?
07:37 <@kanzure> it looks like you were in #diybio
07:37 < xLotus> the tubes brought me here
07:38 <@kanzure> okay
07:39 < fenn> i find it strange how many people end up here with absolutely no sense of their capabilities
07:39 < xLotus> Well, what do you do to "take over the world"?
07:39 <@kanzure> he was joking, our plans are actually much larger in scope
07:39 < fenn> build things, corrupt people and institutions, transcend biological limitations
07:40 < xLotus> that sounds like fun
07:40 < fenn> or whatever the opposite of corruption is; assimilation?
07:41 < xLotus> assimilation is a good blanket term
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07:41 < xLotus> lets use that
07:41 < fenn> so far, 90% of everything is crap
07:42 < xLotus> what's the other 10%?
07:42 < fenn> the crap is normally distributed, so most things are primarily crap, with a very few being 100% crap and some being 0% crap
07:43 < xLotus> I see
07:43 < fenn> most of my work has been figuring out what to do with the good stuff once we separate it out
07:44 <@kanzure> and most of my work has been taking credit for whatever he does
07:44 <@kanzure> it works out pretty well
07:45 < heath> and most of my work is cheerleading
07:45 < heath> \o/ go team h+
07:45 < xLotus> So progress doesn't seem to be going so well does it?
07:45 <@kanzure> i think things are progressing as expected.
07:46 < fenn> unfortunately (in this case) you have low expectations
07:46 < heath> jrayhawk: thanks for the links earlier
07:47 < fenn> kanzure do you drink soda?
07:47 <@kanzure> no
07:48 <@kanzure> just water
07:48 < fenn> i dislike soda, but recently i've started drinking diet root beer for the phenylalanine in aspartame
07:49 < fenn> perhaps it would be smarter to just divide up an amino acid supplement capsule into smaller doses
07:49 < ParahSail1n> what
07:50 < fenn> i knew someone would blow a gasket over that :)
07:50 < heath> or chew gum
07:50 < ParahSail1n> is phenylalanine really difficult to get from food?
07:51 < fenn> hm how do i phrase this... there's evidence that when a single amino acid is at elevated levels relative to other amino acids in the blood, it's transported across the blood brain barrier
07:51 < fenn> and something about insulin
07:52 < ParahSail1n> is this the intention of this experiment? "Phenylalanine uses the same active transport channel as tryptophan to cross the blood–brain barrier, and, in large quantities, interferes with the production of serotonin.
07:52 < ParahSail1n> "
07:54 < fenn> the intention is to increase my brain dopamine and PEA levels without interfering with serotonin
07:55 < ParahSail1n> it seems like the small amounts of aspartame in soda would be a poor source
07:55 < fenn> i've noticed a side effect from 500mg tyrosine supplement, but i don't know if phenylalanine has the same effect
07:55 < ParahSail1n> unless diet coke is all you're drinking
07:56 < fenn> there's roughly 100mg equivalent phenylalanine in 180mg aspartame in a single can of soda
07:56 < fenn> more than that i think is too much
07:57 < xLotus> what are you trying to get from taking phenylalanine?
07:58 < ParahSail1n> i eat maybe 50-100 grams of protein a day, and that's probably 2-5 grams of phenylalanine
07:58 < ParahSail1n> i dont think i'd notice .1 more grams
07:58 < fenn> the intent was to increase intrinsic motivation, but the effect seems to be more like higher enjoyment of fun/interesting things
07:59 < xLotus> I could definitely see that happening
07:59 < fenn> ParahSail1n: the amino acid transporter is nonspecific, so if you flood it with other amino acids, the 100mg won't have any effect, correct
08:00 < fenn> 100 grams protein is a lot
08:04 <@kanzure> did you ever try any of the adderall i stuff in my face?
08:04 <@kanzure> also, if you think i have low expectations, can you please explicitly state better expectations?
08:05 < ParahSail1n> so the idea is to eat well below the normal protein intake levels to decrease other amino acids and then eat lots of aspartame?
08:05 < ParahSail1n> does aspartate interfere with the scheme?
08:06 < fenn> no; i'm considering adrafinil, which also starts with a and ends with l, and has some effect on dopamine levels. frankly i'm not convinced adderall isn't addictive
08:06 < ParahSail1n> wouldnt collecting the pink packets whenever you eat at a restaurant be a more effective system than diet coke?
08:06 < ParahSail1n> you could even insufflate the aspartame for faster intake to the brain
08:07 < fenn> ParahSail1n: yes, all true (don't know about aspartate)
08:07 < fenn> oh, no you need some gut enzyme to metabolize the aspartame
08:07 < fenn> anyway it was a quick experiment that had an interesting effect
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08:07 <@kanzure> the "it impacts dopamine levels" handwaving is just bullshit, that doesn't tell you anything about what's actually going on in the brain
08:07 < ParahSail1n> im not sure you really thought this through
08:08 < fenn> i wouldn't advise anyone to do this
08:10 < fenn> i often wondered why people drink diet soda and this was a possible explanation
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08:13 < fenn> "Of the sites tested, [modafinil] was found to significantly act only on the dopamine transporter (DAT), inhibiting the reuptake of dopamine with an IC50 value of 4 μM. Accordingly, it increases locomotor activity and extracellular dopamine concentrations" although this is a lie because it also affects a bunch of other stuff
08:14 <@kanzure> i suspect it probably does act on all dopamine transporters, but some of those dopamine transporters matter more than others, somewhere.
08:14 < fenn> i recall reading that it only acts in certain locations, but i suck at neuroanatomy
08:15 < fenn> even if i did know what the locations were, i wouldn't be able to deduce the consequences of that information
08:16 <@kanzure> you would look at studies concerning loss of function in that region (tumors, surgery) and stimulation studies (electrocution)
08:16 < fenn> "The locus of the monoamine action of modafinil has also been the target of studies, identifying effects on dopamine in the striatum and nucleus accumbens,[9][10] noradrenaline in the hypothalamus and ventrolateral preoptic nucleus,[11][12] and serotonin in the amygdala and frontal cortex" great
08:16 <@kanzure> also you would check which types of neurons are in that area, then look for neurophysiology studies that characterized how those neurons behave when poked
08:18 <@kanzure> also you would check if anyone has cultured those neurons
08:18 <@kanzure> the answer is probably yes but whatever
08:19 < fenn> "the nucleus accumbens has an important role in reward, pleasure, reinforcement learning, laughter, addiction, aggression, fear, impulsivity and the placebo effect"
08:19 < fenn> i feel like every neuroanatomy article has a sentence like that
08:19 <@kanzure> with a list that long, what does it not involve
08:20 <@kanzure> i think "reward" is a hold-over from psychology studies
08:20 <@kanzure> so just ignore thta one
08:20 <@kanzure> addiction might be molecular-addiction-related, but i doubt it
08:20 <@kanzure> hard to tell what they mean.
08:22 < fenn> this would all be simple if i had a short term memory for 128 semantic chunks instead of 7
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08:23 <@kanzure> "The principal neuronal cell type found in the nucleus accumbens is the medium spiny neuron. The neurotransmitter produced by these neurons is gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), one of the main inhibitory neurotransmitters of the central nervous system. These neurons are also the main projection or output neurons of the nucleus accumbens. While 95% of the neurons in the nucleus accumbens are medium spiny GABA-ergic projection neurons, other ...
08:23 <@kanzure> ... neuronal types are also found such as large aspiny cholinergic interneurons."
08:23 <@kanzure> i like how they make it sound like only one neurotransmitter is used, but they don't explicitly say that
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08:23 <@kanzure> "The [one] neurotransmitter produced by these neurons"
08:24 < fenn> is that not true?
08:24 < fenn> i thought most neurons only produced one type of neurotransmitter, but were receptive to multiple types
08:25 <@kanzure> superkuh: hey, are you around?
08:25 < fenn> hey that's cheating
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08:27 <@kanzure> fenn: i've never heard a statement saying either way.
08:29 < fenn> it seems that the rule is that every rule has an exception
08:31 < ParahSailin> paperbot: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/4/1058.full.pdf
08:32 < paperbot> http://pdf.highwire.org/stamped/nutrition/130/4/1058.full.pdf
08:36 <@kanzure> "medium spiny neuron" sounds far too generic to be the cell type of nucleus accumbens
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09:35 < xLotus> So fenn are you still looking for ways to increase intinisic motivation?
09:37 < ParahSailin> amphetamine is highly recommended
09:38 < ParahSailin> think of it as a catalyst to get you over the activation energy hump
09:41 < xLotus> What have you tried so far?
09:59 < fenn> specifically wrt motivation; exercise, protein, B vitamins, inositol and choline, cordyceps, modafinil, 5-MeO-DALT, noopept, caffeine, chocolate, chlorella
10:00 < fenn> chlorella was sporadically effective but i couldn't figure it out
10:01 < fenn> built tolerance to caffeine after a week, and chocolate has unpleasant side effects in high doses
10:01 < fenn> modafinil unsure of whether it had an effect on this axis
10:02 < fenn> B vitamins help, possibly better in the form of nutritional yeast
10:02 < fenn> cordyceps built tolerance after a month or so, but that's not bad
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10:03 < fenn> by far most effective was low doses (2-5mg) of 5-MeO-DALT but it's too experimental to recommend, which is why i stopped taking it
10:05 < fenn> i haven't tried amphetamine
10:09 < fenn> at this time it's unclear whether exercise and protein intake are a cause or effect, but i'm leaning toward effect
10:10 < fenn> oh, and tyrosine and aspartame
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10:15 < ParahSailin> 5-meo-dalt sounds like drugs
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10:16 < fenn> srsly brah
10:16 < archels> fenn, I was thinking of messing with MAOB inhibitors
10:16 < ParahSailin> what is the website these days for weird recreational "research chemicals"
10:16 < archels> ever try that?
10:17 < ParahSailin> havent done that stuff in like 10 years so im a bit out of the loop
10:17 < fenn> archels: rasagiline/selegiline (emsam) sounds interesting but i have no idea how to get a hold of it
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10:19 < archels> nubrain.com has it
10:20 < archels> PLEASE REGISTER   AND ORDER ON NEW UPDATED WEBSITE
10:20 < archels> http://www.new.nubrain/shop
10:20 < archels> hum
10:20 < fenn> hmm. they sell "etherium gold" which sets off my skeptic alarm
10:20 < ParahSailin> is this place legit? https://researchchemicals.net/5-meo-dalt.html
10:21 < archels> fenn: I ordered modafinil from them about 2 years ago. it was satisfactory
10:21 < fenn> sorry ParahSail1n i haven't played the internet research chemicals game
10:22 < ParahSailin> they sell 5-meo-dalt on the "street"?
10:22 < fenn> no, it was acquired through participating experimenters
10:22 < chris_99> aren't 'research' chemicals completely untested
10:22 < fenn> chris_99: hence the name, duh
10:23 < ParahSailin> no theyve been tested by at least one dude and erowid
10:23 < chris_99> haha
10:23 < ParahSailin> dude on erowid
10:23 < fenn> or do you mean certified to be what they claim to be?
10:24 < fenn> some people provide third party analysis but probably not unless you're buying many grams
10:24 < chris_99> they mention 'such as performing a gas chromatography–mass spectrometry in an adequate laboratory'
10:25 < chris_99> as being what they're for heh
10:25 < fenn> yes it's silly, but at least you know what it is, unlike the whole bath salts potpourri thing
10:25 < ParahSailin> chris_99: nah, usually you just have to verify it by taste
10:25 < fenn> ParahSailin: i hope you're joking
10:25 < chris_99> fenn they could be cut with any old crap
10:26 < fenn> indeed, hence "the internet research chemicals game"
10:26 < fenn> also, why doesn't every cellphone have a built in GCMS by now?
10:27 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: thoughts? https://github.com/kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone/blob/master/index.js
10:27 <@kanzure> fenn: you're avoiding my earlier question
10:27 < ParahSailin> olfactory sense + taste is very effective substitute for gcms
10:28 < chris_99> how do they actually come up with them?
10:28 < chris_99> just modify existing molecules a bit?
10:28 < chris_99> or are they radically different
10:28 < ParahSailin> shulgin came up with a couple hundred in the 60s
10:28 < ParahSailin> mostly people are using those same ones
10:28 < fenn> kanzure: no i haven't tried adderall or any other amphetamine-like substance
10:28 < ParahSailin> and as some become illegal, they move on to the next, more dangerous ones
10:29 <@kanzure> fenn: that wasn't the question i asked
10:29 <@kanzure> fenn: uh i mean, that was a question i asked, but not the one i was referring to
10:29 < fenn> please restate the question in the form of a question
10:30 < chris_99> ParahSail1n, iirc in the UK, they can make molecules that are similar to illegal drugs, and get away with it
10:30 < chris_99> i think in the US it's different?
10:30 <@kanzure> 08:04 <@kanzure> also, if you think i have low expectations, can you please explicitly state better expectations?
10:30 < fenn> chris_99: in the US it's an unresolved legal issue
10:30 < chris_99> ah
10:31 < fenn> in some cases it's legal to possess but illegal to sell, etc
10:31 < chris_99> gotcha
10:32 < ParahSailin> kanzure: so you would be piping the stream to a process of pdfparanoia?
10:32 < chris_99> they've got some pretty spectroscopy graphs
10:32 < fenn> kanzure: how's that roadmap coming along?
10:33 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: thta's one possibility, but i was going to leave it up to the user or something.
10:33 < aelinoea> safeorscam.com might come handy when checking out places to order RCs from
10:33 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: maybe pdfparanoiajs should be a default
10:33 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: i don't want every translator to have to pipe things through pdfparanoia on their own, that's stupid
10:33 < ParahSailin> you implemented that?
10:33 <@kanzure> no, i haven't written pdfparanoiajs yet
10:37 < fenn> it's past my bedtime
10:37 < fenn> kanzure: generally this channel has turned into a watercooler and that's sad, but this is a trend in online futurist communities
10:38 < xLotus> I don't know if this would help you since you said chocolate gave you negative effects when taking in a lot but maybe try phenthylamine the chemical
10:39 < fenn> i'd like to participate in a functioning research organization, but it seems i need to fix my own problems first before attempting to fix group problems
10:39 <@kanzure> fenn: i can't get any of you to use any of my money to help you buy things
10:39 <@kanzure> fenn: and when i do, you guys want to do absurd things that wont work
10:39 <@kanzure> fenn: that's partially my fault for pimping a bad idea, but i've repented and i regret everything
10:40 < fenn> well, buying things is only part of doing stuff
10:40 <@kanzure> certainly true
10:40 <@kanzure> but we can also just.. buy people to do the things too.
10:40 < fenn> hard to believe that after years of this i still don't know what the best "opening move" is
10:40 <@kanzure> uh i mean, whatever the right way to say that is
10:40 < fenn> is BRL-CAD it?
10:41 <@kanzure> the thing about needing cad for skdb was sorta bullshit, there's no reason for a monolithic pile of crap
10:41 <@kanzure> but yes, brlcad is very useful if you want hardware packages to have introspection about 3d models or something
10:41 < fenn> i never wanted it to be monolithic
10:41 <@kanzure> well, it is/was
10:41 < fenn> it just turned out that we needed a cad library that didn't exist, so it got sucked in
10:41 <@kanzure> why did we need a cad library?
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10:41 < ParahSailin> put money into nuclear energy research
10:41 <@kanzure> i think that was just me being silly
10:42 <@kanzure> your package manager shouldn't have to run NURBS intersection math or w/e
10:42 < fenn> to do sanity checking because all the data is in crap formats and the only way to resolve "does x fit y" is brute force geometry mashing
10:42 <@kanzure> oh yeah
10:42 < fenn> if there even is a format, but 99% of the time there is not even digital data about a thing
10:42 <@kanzure> "it's in the wiki"
10:43 < fenn> ParahSailin: i am keenly interested in nuclear energy
10:43 < ParahSailin> im assuming you dont actually have that much money though
10:45 < fenn> if this rossi thing turns out to not be bullshit i'll be all over that
10:45 < fenn> my nickel powder disappeared in customs :\
10:45 <@kanzure> wait, why do you really want geometry intersection code in a package manager?
10:45 < fenn> the process for creating nano powders is pretty complex. high power lasers, partial vacuum, carbonyl compounds
10:46 <@kanzure> a package manager on top of brlcad seems sorta weird
10:46 <@kanzure> or maybe that's the right way to do it
10:46 <@kanzure> i'm so confused.
10:47 < fenn> kanzure: because unlike software there's no "copy" or "delete" operation, so people have old/different instances of stuff than the person who made the package
10:47 <@kanzure> not my fault they need to run a package upgrade
10:47 <@kanzure> retooling is a regular thing that you should do if you want new stuf
10:47 <@kanzure> *stuff
10:48 < fenn> uh, there's also the third party vendor problem
10:48 < fenn> it's unrealistic to assume that people will use 100% skdb-compatible parts and machines and facilities etc
10:48 <@kanzure> incompatible means incompatible
10:49 < fenn> geometry comparison was part of the strategy to make it all work
10:49 < fenn> i mean look at how many reprap designs there are
10:49 < fenn> they all do basically the same thing
10:50 < fenn> then add in the commercial consumer-grade FDM stuff like makerbot or staples-bot or whatever
10:50 < fenn> it's unrealistic to assume everyone will have prusa-mendel v2.1 with such and such build platform
10:51 < fenn> the only reason apple can get away with rigid hardware specs is that they brainwash their users
10:51 <@kanzure> i don't care about that, that's irrelevant
10:52 < fenn> it's a similar problem. in the end it has to be pretty flexible anyway, just for ease of development
10:53 < fenn> i think trying to solve these basic theoretical issues is what made me give up on skdb
10:54 < fenn> anyway skdb is just one project
10:55 < fenn> it seemed like a good first step because it could tell me what the next step is
10:56 < fenn> how the hell does debian work
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11:37 < archels> http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/08/Radical-life-extension-full.pdf
11:37 < archels> http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/08/Life-Extension-Essay.pdf
11:38 < archels> (they even mention the singularity)
11:39 <@kanzure> import os; print os.path.join("./wtf", "/bin")
11:39 <@kanzure> /bin
11:42 < archels> whereas you expected...
11:42 < ParahSailin> /bin is filesystem root
11:43 < ParahSailin> python is full of surprises
11:44 < ParahSailin> Join one or more path components intelligently. If any component is an absolute path, all previous components (on Windows, including the previous drive letter, if there was one) are thrown away, and joining continues.
11:44 < ParahSailin> thankfully the surprises are dutifully reported in the docs
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11:47 <@kanzure> still not what i expected
11:47 <@kanzure> principle of least suprise, right?
11:48 < ParahSailin> thats a difficult principle to implement with such a loose type system
12:02 <@kanzure> heh "I am writing to let you know I will no longer be involved in day-to-day operations for BioCurious. As you know, I have been open about our precarious cash position since December of last year. Raymond and I have held meetings, updates, presentations, and asked for help repeatedly.  Yet despite all this, and lots and lots of hard work by me, and a handful of very dedicated others, it hasn't gotten better."
12:11 < ParahSailin> i thought the white house gave them moneys
12:16 <@kanzure> not that i recall?
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12:52 < ParahSailin> god, why is there a thread about some guy's writing system on diybio
12:52 <@kanzure> writing system?
12:53 < ParahSailin> yeah someone talking about his new alphabet
12:53 < chris_99> haha
12:53 < ParahSailin> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/diybio/1DOhrbvAR7I/sfi93J7zDmgJ
12:54 < chris_99> the point of that being?
12:55 < ParahSailin> faster science obv
12:55 < chris_99> heh
12:57 < ParahSailin> clearly our slow latin script system and the lack of a wikipedia for sharing results than renders pdfs automatically are the two bottlenecks preventing the singularity of diybio science
12:58 <@kanzure> haha
13:00 < ParahSailin> and then we all just need to learn ithkuil
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13:16 < nmz787> ParahSailin: actually he never said it would be faster
13:16 < nmz787> he actually mentioned 'art' in a comment
13:16 < nmz787> don't we have some audio smart people in here?
13:16 <@kanzure> cathal's date format is bad, he should suggest ISO 8601 instead of using slashes
13:17 < nmz787> i can't find the average track depth for a gramophone record
13:17 <@kanzure> also, i disagree about markdown being particularly parseable
13:17 < nmz787> kanzure: obviously every wiki /does/ it
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13:17 < nmz787> so parsing engines already exist
13:17 < nmz787> wikipedia works! how can you argue that?
13:18 <@kanzure> yes, but it's ambiguous
13:18 <@kanzure> it's as if you're ignoring all of the people who wrote the parsers
13:18 <@kanzure> they are not all idiots you know..
13:18 < ParahSailin> there's javascript libraries that translate md to html
13:19  * kanzure looks for a good description of the problem
13:19 <@kanzure> "Parsing SGML is context-free, whereas wikitext and markdown are both context-sensitive, and therefore more complex to write parsers for."
13:19 <@kanzure> no, that wasn't it..
13:19 < nmz787> kanzure: i'm not ignoring them, i'm saying they already did the work for you
13:20 <@kanzure> they didn't, though
13:20 <@kanzure> they just generate html
13:20 < nmz787> ?
13:20 < ParahSailin> there's an existing wikitext parser, and all you have to do is make your project in php to use it
13:20 < nmz787> it's stored as wikimarkdown
13:20 < nmz787> and rendered as html
13:20 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: :)
13:20 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: but that's not the only reason it's a bad idea
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13:21 <@kanzure> "This is a great initiative and I have huge hopes for this going forward. But I want to make one recommendation: Don't write a parser. Instead, base the standard on a parser-generator-language, like that of ANTLR, so code can be generated from this standard language to whatever programming language or platform people want to parse Markdown in. Unless you're planning on implementing the parser in the 17 different languages supported by ANTRL ...
13:21 <@kanzure> ... out of the box, defining the MArkdown language in ANTLR and letting it generate parsers for these 17 languages makes a hell of a lot sense. Please consider it. Hard."
13:21 <@kanzure> blargh, but where's the one about markdown ambiguity
13:21 <@kanzure> "Some cleanup and tweaks for ambiguous edge cases that exist in Markdown due to the lack of a formal specification"
13:22 <@kanzure> i feel like the internet used to be very different, or maybe i was in a different world, and all the stuff i remember happens to be things that nobody else knows about
13:23 <@kanzure> too bad i didn't commit the entire internet to memory, only the urls
13:23 < nmz787> plenty of wikis out there, already parsing their silicon brains out
13:23 <@kanzure> just because a parser exist does not mean that the specification exists
13:23 < nmz787> dunno how you argue shit that exists/works
13:23 <@kanzure> and saying "the implementation is the specification" is a really bad idea
13:24 < nmz787> you should pay to join ISO so you can argue specs
13:25 < nmz787> so what if it's hard? computers do hard stuff for us
13:25 <@kanzure> where did i say hard?
13:25 < ParahSailin> this is such a pointless thing
13:25 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: you mean, i can't convince nmz787 to use specifications?
13:26 < nmz787> the only spec i heard was markdown
13:26 <@kanzure> there is no spec
13:26 <@kanzure> for markdown
13:26 <@kanzure> well, no well-defined grammar, at least
13:26 < ParahSailin> use html as the interchange format and let people generate html however they want
13:26 <@kanzure> but that's what a specification means in this context
13:27 < nmz787> journals only have so many different kind of elements
13:29 < nmz787> There's text, heading for sections, lists, and figures with text below or above them
13:29 <@kanzure> why are you saying that?
13:29 <@kanzure> saying these things does not turn markdown into a rigorously-defined language
13:29 <@kanzure> i was just trying to prevent a catastrophe
13:30 < nmz787> no, i'm just saying maybe markdown isn't required
13:30 <@kanzure> okay. for what, again?
13:30 < nmz787> if there are only so few distinct elements
13:31 < jrayhawk> http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/diagram.png pandoc
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13:31 < ParahSailin> this is such a pointless thing because this is not addressing an actual problem
13:32 <@kanzure> oh, that too.
13:32 < ParahSailin> there are not thousands of people who are being held back from sharing results by the lack of a wikiplatform
13:32 <@kanzure> it would be nice if journals would publish in something other than pdf and html, but i don't think that's what nmz787 is trying to do
13:33 < ParahSailin> there are also not a million different formats of files flying around confusing everyone
13:33 <@kanzure> jrayhawk's image was just showing what pandoc can do, relax
13:33 <@kanzure> -relax
13:35 < nmz787> crazy graph
13:36 < nmz787> ParahSailin: formatting is a PITA though, I'd use some plug-n-chug app
13:36 < nmz787> especially with libreoffice or google docs
13:36 <@kanzure> nobody uses either of those for scientific reporting
13:36 <@kanzure> or, they shouldn't.
13:37 < klafka> i'd hope not
13:37 < ParahSailin> do the science first, then report
13:37 < nmz787> i did
13:37 < nmz787> reporting is why i failed a class
13:38 <@kanzure> is it because you forgot to cat your data into your file?
13:38 < nmz787> because it was too PITA that I said fuck it and just didn't report
13:38 < ParahSailin> its hard to save the file in the editor?
13:38 < nmz787> ?
13:38 < nmz787> saving is easy
13:39 < nmz787> that's not a PITA
13:39 < nmz787> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691513005504
13:39 < ParahSailin> then email it after you save it
13:39 < ParahSailin> or something
13:39 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Curcumin%20binds%20tubulin%2C%20induces%20mitotic%20catastrophe%2C%20and%20impedes%20normal%20endothelial%20cell%20proliferation%20.pdf
13:39 < nmz787> ?
13:39 < ParahSailin> reported; shared.
13:39 < nmz787> i don't get how email does automagic formatting
13:40 < ParahSailin> use a different editor/save format?
13:42 < nmz787> that has nothing to do with formatting
13:42 < ParahSailin> i use wp51 because thats what im familiar with
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13:47 < nmz787> doesn't that cost money?
13:50 < ParahSailin> nah im pretty sure you can still find floppies of it from a friend
13:54 < nmz787> this is a pretty good read http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/the-curious-wavefunction/2013/07/31/what-does-mercury-being-liquid-at-room-temperature-have-to-do-with-einsteins-theory-of-relativity/
13:56 < nmz787> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/BFb0018578
13:56 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1007%2FBFb0018578
14:00 < ParahSailin> http://sci-hub.org/pdfcache/c0c94b13fdba15f9d7d34e950f7a999d.pdf
14:00 < nmz787> Not Found
14:01 < nmz787> oh, wait, the d at the end wasn't in my copy buffer
14:01 < nmz787> ParahSailin: thanks, how did you get that to work?
14:01 < ParahSailin> haxkell
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14:05 < nmz787> paperbot: http://nar.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/17/6959.abstract
14:05 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1093%2Fnar%2F17.17.6959
14:05 < nmz787> ParahSailinbot!
14:08 < ParahSailin> paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1093%2Fnar%2F17.17.6959
14:08 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/9ed2cdf6d5cc0ab6fe73fc477ced8de.txt
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15:09 < heath> dwolla was forced to close mt.gox, and now bitinstant folds because of FINCen Regulations, wtf
15:09 < heath> close mt.gox's account*
15:10 <@kanzure> i thought mtgox has japanese bank accounts or something
15:10 < heath> it's based in japan
15:10 < heath> but everyone used dwolla to get their funds out
15:10 < heath> there isn't a service for instant payment
15:11 <@kanzure> oh, i didn't know it was dwolla. that's funny.
15:11 < heath> most are resorting to wire transfers and over the counter
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15:11 < heath> this sucks
15:12 <@kanzure> what's wrong with wire transfers?
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15:12 < heath> a friend of mine 500USD scheduled to transfer from mt.gox over four weeks ago
15:12 < heath> it's the time issue, it takes forever now to get money out
15:13 < heath> bit instant was the way to get it out when mt.gox's dwolla account was closed
15:13 <@kanzure> go through second life
15:13  * heath wonders how bitinstant was making money
15:22 < heath> that might work, re:sl
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16:24 < Noryokusha> lazy day today
16:24 < Noryokusha> just spent it reading and cleaning
16:24 < Noryokusha> sup heath
16:25 <@kanzure> fenn: we could just start doing periodic purges of the watercooler crap
16:26 < heath> Noryokusha: heya
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16:27 < heath> agaiin?
16:27 < heath> i refuse
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16:39 < ParahSail1n> watercooler crap?
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16:49 <@kanzure> ParahSail1n: fenn is angry that i am not working hard enough on hplusroadmap things
16:49 <@kanzure> ParahSail1n: we used to do things in here, you know. long before you joined.
16:50 < ParahSail1n> hm, like what?
16:50 <@kanzure> well at one point we had a physical hackerspace i think
16:51 < ParahSail1n> i think folks here are pretty geographically dispersed
16:51 <@kanzure> fenn used to live in my closet
16:51 < ParahSail1n> ah right you told me that
16:51 < ParahSail1n> but the bay area folks were too cool to match you
16:52 <@kanzure> i'm sorta boring to live with, heh
16:52 <@kanzure> "DO CODE" "MAKE THINGS BEEP"
16:53 < ParahSail1n> we should start a nuclear program under the auspices of one of the sovereign american indian nations
16:54 <@kanzure> ParahSail1n: were you around when there was an actual transhuman technology roadmap that we were building things according to? or wanting to build things according to.
16:54 < ParahSail1n> i saw a roadmap on gnusha once
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16:54 <@kanzure> ParahSail1n: btw, phillyj is that jeswin person that you mentioned
16:54 <@kanzure> that might have been drazak
16:55 < ParahSail1n> jeswin?
16:55 <@kanzure> okay yeah it was drazak then
16:55 <@kanzure> so what's the papermonk status?
16:57 < ParahSail1n> so whats next on the roadmap anyway?
16:57 < ParahSail1n> musky knocked long distance travel off our list, so whats next
16:58 <@kanzure> i forget
16:59 < ParahSail1n> im a bit disappointed that gates is the only billionaire doing anything about nuclear energy
16:59 <@kanzure> something about hardware packages, something about transcranial stimulation, something about dna
16:59 <@kanzure> what was the disease that gates is focusing on? malaria? i keep forgetting.
17:01 < ParahSail1n> these guys did a lot more than gates fdn ever did, at a pittance of the budget http://www.againstmalaria.com/
17:01 < ParahSail1n> but at least gates is not doing things as wasty-money as some people
17:03 <@kanzure> gates has the unfortunate problem of growing 5-8 billion/year and not being able to spend fast enough
17:03 < ParahSail1n> i didnt realize msft was still growing
17:04 <@kanzure> gates has other assets. his portfolio gets some percent interest on the market.
17:04 <@kanzure> 8% return on 70 billion is.. a lot.
17:04 < ParahSail1n> huh, i thought his portfolio was mostly msft and that hed take huge hit selling it
17:05 < ParahSail1n> did he get out in 1999 or something?
17:05 <@kanzure> hah i didn't know this one "Research Gate, a social networking site for scientists. Bill Gates invested $35 million in the site." so that's where research gate comes from.. i thought it was just a scam or lots of spam.
17:06 < ParahSail1n> i dont think its too hard to blow billions of dollars
17:07 < ParahSail1n> i think he just wants to keep the #1 spot
17:07 < ParahSail1n> but this is water cooler crap
17:08 <@kanzure> "In 1999, his wealth briefly surpassed $101 billion"
17:08 <@kanzure> yes
17:08 < ParahSail1n> how much spare cash do you actually have lying around
17:08 <@kanzure> enough
17:08 < ParahSail1n> that will help me narrow down what options are available
17:08 < ParahSail1n> obviously you dont have enough to start a sioux thorium project
17:08 < ParahSail1n> or do you
17:08 <@kanzure> do i want to do that though?
17:09 < ParahSail1n> sure, energy is gonna end up being pretty important
17:09 <@kanzure> but anyway, there's this interesting trend where if i tell you have $10M or $100M or whatever, suddenly all projects become ridiculously inflated
17:09 <@kanzure> fenn used to build usable things for under $1k that would otherwise cost $100k or whatever
17:09 <@kanzure> but i guess i broke him or something
17:09  * kanzure pokes fenn
17:09 <@kanzure> if i have to spend above-market-price on everything, i'll run out of money before i get to anything interesting
17:12 < ParahSail1n> heh
17:13 <@kanzure> part of the secret is to pick projects that are actually achievable
17:13 <@kanzure> most of the technology that we need/want in this world are actually not "theoretical".. they already exist and work (somewhat).
17:15 <@kanzure> i guess plato said the same thing about math
17:18 <@kanzure> ParahSail1n: what was the serum project you wanted to do a while back?
17:19 < ParahSail1n> i was making a liver cell line condition minimal medium when i got kicked out
17:20 <@kanzure> condition?
17:21 < ParahSail1n> liver cells churn out albumin and other proteins into their medium
17:21 < ParahSail1n> i had gotten the liver cells to survive in regular MEM
17:24 < ParahSail1n> i got kicked out of that lab because the cells werent very adherent, so it looked like an infection in my plates
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17:28 < ParahSail1n> nuclear energy might become moot if the pv folks manage to continue the power law decline of costs
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17:31 < Noryokusha> :D I'm one of the pv folks
17:31 < Noryokusha> dssc's mostly
17:32 < ParahSail1n> you of the opinion that it would a waste of money to develop fission reactors further because pv will eventually become ridiculously cheap?
17:34 < Noryokusha> no, it's another area of research
17:34 < Noryokusha> science is never useless
17:34 < Noryokusha> it might be useful for another purpose
17:35 < ParahSail1n> im of the school of maximum instantaneous growth rate
17:36 < ParahSail1n> i can show you plenty of useless science
17:37 < ParahSail1n> so which will grow the prosperity of civilization at a greater rate, money in pv or money in fission?
17:37 <@kanzure> papermonk-downloader-plosone needs to get its request.get call mocked
17:39 <@kanzure> oh actually, i suppose one possibility is to replace its .test() method with something that always returns true, then fetch something hosted on localhost as the url
17:39 <@kanzure> but this wont work for in-browser testing (if anyone ever wants to attempt that)
17:40 <@kanzure> https://github.com/flatiron/nock okay looks like i want replyWithFile
17:40 < cogitokat> didn't I do that?
17:41 < ParahSail1n> well, assuming that pv is going to be the useful power source, next we need to solve peak phosphate
17:42 <@kanzure> cogitokat: you didn't use replyWithFile
17:42 <@kanzure> cogitokat: of course, i could be looking at the wrong thing
17:43 < ParahSail1n> i think a kelp farming operation might be able to extract phosphate from the ocean
17:43 < cogitokat> kanzure yes huh, I did.
17:44 <@kanzure> cogitokat: well, it got lost then
17:44 < cogitokat> I made reply with string test and reply with file test
17:44 < cogitokat> booo
17:45 < cogitokat> you should have a replies folder in tests in those papermonkmodules and tests.js has two tests.
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18:09 <@kanzure> grr this is not working
18:10 < cogitokat> kanzure, what isn't?
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18:14 <@kanzure> this works in the node console:
18:14 <@kanzure> var scope = nock("http://example.com").get("/paper").replyWithFile(200, "./tests/data/html/test.html")
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18:14 <@kanzure> request.get("http://example.com/paper", function(error, response, body) { console.log("body is: " + body.toString()); });
18:14 <@kanzure> but it doesn't work in a test.
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18:35 <@kanzure> hmm
18:36 < cogitokat> kanzure, I imed you things.
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18:45 <@kanzure> ah, the problem was that i wasn't calling jsdom's window.close()
18:46 <@kanzure> also, jsdom is pretty slow
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18:52 <@kanzure> i wonder if anyone has done performance benchmarks on jsdom
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19:02 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure pushed 2 commits to basic-http-mocking [+1/-0/±3] http://git.io/iDgTOQ
19:02 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure 6aec849 - initial mocking of an http request This is a simple mock that returns the expected html of the page to test the downloader against. For now, the only tested property is the title found in the html.
19:02 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure cd0a295 - stop jsdom from hanging the entire test system The window must be closed because otherwise the test suite never ends itself. Also, jsdom is really slow and is overkill for a task like "extract the <title> of an html document". It's probably even slower inside a browser's javascript environment, but I haven't tested that yet.
19:02 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure tagged 4363ee9 as v0.0.3 http://git.io/H31giQ
19:02 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure pushed 4 commits to master [+2/-0/±7] http://git.io/AC3DDg
19:02 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure 6aec849 - initial mocking of an http request This is a simple mock that returns the expected html of the page to test the downloader against. For now, the only tested property is the title found in the html.
19:03 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure cd0a295 - stop jsdom from hanging the entire test system The window must be closed because otherwise the test suite never ends itself. Also, jsdom is really slow and is overkill for a task like "extract the <title> of an html document". It's probably even slower inside a browser's javascript environment, but I haven't tested that yet.
19:03 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure 1975e49 - Merge branch 'basic-http-mocking' into master
19:03 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure 4363ee9 - version bump to: v0.0.3 Hooray! HTTP mocking.
19:03 <@kanzure> hmm it is displaying the same commits multiple times
19:03 <@kanzure> that is a little annoying
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19:07 <@kanzure> "Preliminary end-to-end benchmarks suggest that cheerio is about 8x faster than JSDOM"
19:10 <@kanzure> weird that jsdom doesn't use a "forgiving" html parser. that doesn't make sense. its goal is to implement the html/dom, which wont work if you have a strict parser..
19:10 <@kanzure> heath: what was the selector library you wanted?
19:10 <@kanzure> no wait, that was ParahSail1n
19:11 < ParahSail1n> sizzle?
19:16 < heath> jsdom uses nwmatcher
19:16 < heath> https://github.com/dperini/nwmatcher
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20:06 < ParahSail1n> paperbot, http://www.jneurosci.org/content/33/33/13460.abstract
20:06 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1523%2FJNEUROSCI.1333-13.2013
20:07 < ParahSail1n> paperbot, http://dx.doi.org/10.1523%2FJNEUROSCI.1333-13.2013
20:07 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/A%20Dramatic%20Increase%20of%20C1q%20Protein%20in%20the%20CNS%20during%20Normal%20Aging.pdf
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20:24 < heath> kanzure: http://jsperf.com/selector-engine-battle/5
20:24 < heath> dunno if you care
20:25 < heath> when was sizzle officially included in the jquery source?
20:26 < heath> several years ago
20:27 < ParahSail1n> when was sizzle split off from jquery source you mean?
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20:40 <@kanzure> is sizzle capable of parsing html from a string, or does it require the DOM to be loaded already?
20:45 < ParahSail1n> no sizzle just calls getElementBy* shit
20:45 < ParahSail1n> you use it with jsdom
20:51 <@kanzure> ah. i'd like to try to not use jsdom.
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21:16 < ParahSail1n> arent you already using it?
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21:20 <@kanzure> yes, i'd like to remove it and use something not so slow
21:20 <@kanzure> there's no reason to use jsdom in this case because it's completely overkill
21:21 < ParahSail1n> oh, jsdom is slow?
21:21 <@kanzure> very slow
21:21 <@kanzure> and i bet it's worse in a browser (unless it uses innerHTML or something)
21:21 < ParahSail1n> that would be completely silly to use jsdom in a browser
21:21 <@kanzure> it takes 4-5 seconds to parse http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0071334
21:22 <@kanzure> well, the point of writing this in javascript is that it could automatically be used in a browser or server-side or w/e
21:22 <@kanzure> it might be slower but the point is it would still work (potentially)
21:22 < ParahSail1n> so you want to do a pull parser instead of full dom html parsing?
21:22 <@kanzure> (with the exception of XHR/CORS problems, which can be figured out via proxies or something)
21:22 <@kanzure> oh, uh, maybe.
21:23 < ParahSail1n> man though id hate to write that without cool parser combinators
21:24 <@kanzure> heh this one seems useful, http://requirebin.com
21:24 <@kanzure> it's a pastebin for javascript that uses require(), it just dumps everything through browserify
21:26 < ParahSail1n> maybe cheerio is faster?
21:26 <@kanzure> yeah, i'll try that in a sec
21:32 < ParahSail1n> or i guess that uses node-htmlparser so you can just go straight to that
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21:43 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure tagged 337c584 as v0.0.4 http://git.io/zHArcw
21:43 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure pushed 5 commits to master [+0/-0/±5] http://git.io/faS-UQ
21:43 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure ad65c5e - replace jsdom with cheerio Wow, that's a significant performance improvement. All tests are passing.
21:43 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure a72dd62 - Merge branch 'replace-jsdom-with-cheerio' into master
21:43 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure 597476d - remove jsdom from package.json
21:43 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure b0f7f48 - Merge branch 'replace-jsdom-with-cheerio' into master
21:43 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure 337c584 - version bump to: v0.0.4 This version has a performance improvement thanks to replacing jsdom with cheerio.
21:44 <@kanzure> i'm sure even better performance is possible if we actually spend time profiling why the hell that last test takes so long
21:44 <@kanzure> time node tests.js gives me 0m0.283s using cheerio
21:45 <@kanzure> whereas the version with jsdom is 0m5.821s
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23:08 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure pushed 3 commits to master [+2/-0/±5] http://git.io/atrpdQ
23:08 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure ab2d3a0 - split parser out into a separate file
23:08 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure 8e6e38b - expose parse functions on module and write tests
23:08 < Not-002> [kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone] kanzure 1cffdfe - Merge branch 'separate-parser' into master Clean up index.js and move out the html-specific stuff into ./src/parse.js instead of piling up into the index file. Also, there are some new tests that look specifically at the parser functions.
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--- Log closed Fri Aug 16 00:00:57 2013