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timeout: 256 seconds] 09:34 < archels> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/10/02/1312691110 09:34 < archels> Cortical columns are thought to be the elementary functional building blocks of sensory cortices. Here we show that the cellular architecture of cortical “barrel” columns in rodent somatosensory cortex is not stereotypic, but specific for each whisker on the animals’ snout. 09:34 < archels> Our findings challenge the concepts underlying contemporary simulation efforts that build up large-scale network models of repeatedly occurring identical cortical circuits. 09:34 * archels guffaws 09:39 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:48 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@184.75.214.163] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:00 -!- saturn2 [~visitant@c-75-72-240-113.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:06 -!- aelinoea [~aelinoea@a88-113-45-152.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:07 <@kanzure> archels: well that sounds like good news 10:12 < ParahSailin> paperbot: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/10/02/1312691110 10:13 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Cellular%20organization%20of%20cortical%20barrel%20columns%20is%20whisker-specific.pdf 10:13 <@kanzure> geeze what a ridiculous dsl for python http://pythonhosted.org/should_dsl/available_matchers.html 10:14 <@kanzure> oh cool paperbot did the right thing for once 10:14 <@kanzure> archels: it's good news because that means we just have to stare at slices of cortex and then make models 10:14 < ParahSailin> whoa what syntax is that | shit 10:14 <@kanzure> i assume black magic 10:14 < ParahSailin> is that quasiquoting or something? 10:15 < ParahSailin> or is that overloading of or? 10:15 < ParahSailin> lol 10:16 < ParahSailin> yeah, gross 10:16 < ParahSailin> wtf people 10:21 < archels> kanzure: it does not bode well for strongly reduced/simplified models though 10:22 < archels> I suppose 'columns' can still be somewhat elementary building blocks, but it's becoming ever less likely 10:24 < ParahSailin> kanzure: whats been going on with paperbot? 10:25 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@184.75.214.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:25 -!- saturn2 [~visitant@c-75-72-240-113.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:32 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: nothing :( 10:32 <@kanzure> archels: yeah but this is good news because maybe people will now actually believe the brain's structure is fucking relevant 10:36 -!- justanotheruser1 [~andrew@128.211.178.8] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:40 < ParahSailin> kanzure: did sci-hub cut us off? 10:41 -!- justanotheruser1 [~andrew@128.211.178.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:53 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@184.75.221.3] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:05 -!- augur [~augur@pool-71-178-136-70.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:06 -!- lupfantomo [~lupfantom@24-159-24-229.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:08 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: no idea, i haven't investigated 11:22 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@184.75.221.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:24 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:24 < delinquentme> paperbot, http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/RecentIssue.jsp?punumber=10 11:24 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/9b1a919b4d9ef597248fe3e910704bb4.txt 11:28 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@128.211.178.8] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:30 < delinquentme> paperbot, http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=125006&url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F8843%2F27977%2F01250065.pdf%3Farnumber%3D125006 11:30 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1109%2F10.125006 11:33 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@128.211.178.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:37 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@184.75.214.163] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:39 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:40 -!- Technicus [~Technicus@166.181.83.76] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 11:47 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:52 -!- augur [~augur@pool-71-178-136-70.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:54 -!- saturn2 [~visitant@c-75-72-240-113.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:06 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:09 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:13 -!- augur_ [~augur@pool-71-178-136-70.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:14 -!- augur [~augur@pool-71-178-136-70.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:20 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@184.75.214.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:38 -!- augur_ [~augur@pool-71-178-136-70.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:50 -!- lupfantomo [~lupfantom@24-159-24-229.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:57 <@kanzure> apparently brlcad is used by lots of windows users :( 12:57 <@kanzure> http://sourceforge.net/projects/brlcad/files/stats/os 12:58 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:15 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:24 -!- aelinoea [~aelinoea@a88-113-45-152.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:28 -!- klafka [~klafka@67.128.140.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:34 -!- Tukotih_ [~tukotih@unaffiliated/tukotih] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:43 -!- Tukotih_ [~tukotih@unaffiliated/tukotih] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:47 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:48 < fenn> archels: if you can teach a blind man to use a cane, does it matter that mice have specially evolved processing circuits for whiskers? 13:50 < fenn> if the goal is to simulate a mouse brain, why bother with abstraction at all, just digitize actual mouse brains 13:51 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@184.75.214.163] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:55 -!- aelinoea [~aelinoea@a88-113-45-152.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:00 <@kanzure> fenn: the fascination with trying to do brain things without looking at brains is really curious 14:00 <@kanzure> fenn: also i found your doppleganger and it is weird 14:00 < fenn> well it depends on your idea of "brain things" 14:00 < fenn> which doppleganger? there are several 14:01 <@kanzure> jquast has many of your physical mannerisms 14:01 <@kanzure> worked as a sysadmin for a long time, started doing linux things in '97ish or earlier 14:02 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:02 -!- klafka [~klafka@67.128.140.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:02 < fenn> symptoms of late stage progression of the disease 14:02 -!- klafka [~klafka@67.128.140.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:02 <@kanzure> nah he is missing that disease; that's where the similarity stops i think 14:05 < fenn> he really likes serial ports 14:06 < ThomasEgi> i see no problem with liking seiral ports. they often saved my day when everything else failed. simple, robust, easy to work with. 14:07 < fenn> i don't disagree 14:07 -!- klafka [~klafka@67.128.140.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:09 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:09 <@kanzure> i wonder if people have been trying to do abstractions because they are too lazy to figure out how to deal with all the data from scanning 14:10 <@kanzure> or maybe they just don't have all of the neuron types characterized 14:10 <@kanzure> but that seems like a fairly blunt list of things to do.. a rare feat in research. 14:10 <@kanzure> "now we have to character 300 types of neurons" => great.. scale up some drones. get the dishes going. 14:10 <@kanzure> *characterize 14:10 < fenn> probably because their scan data isn't big enough or high enough resolution 14:10 -!- dingo [~dingo@1984.ws] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:12 < fenn> dingo: are you jquast? 14:13 < dingo> i am! crap, who are you! 14:13 < fenn> your government-assigned super snooper 14:15 < fenn> well anyway apparently we were cloned from the same vat 14:17 < dingo> ah 14:18 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:18 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@184.75.214.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:19 < dingo> yes aparently we wave our hands around the same way 14:19 < fenn> oogedy boogedy boo 14:19 < fenn> i am not a crook 14:23 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@108-65-73-197.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:23 < delinquentme> paperbot, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22790702 14:24 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016%2Fj.aca.2012.06.002 14:33 <@kanzure> fenn: i'm not happy about how a lot of that research data is not available, though 14:33 <@kanzure> fenn: i'm also disappointed with the computational models available so far 14:34 <@kanzure> fenn: i don't want to end up with merk-style books ("here is your billion tables of neuron properties, have fun assholes") 14:34 < fenn> the data sets would be in the hundreds of terabytes though, how do you make that 'available'? 14:35 <@kanzure> so, i don't actually mean "all possible data" 14:35 < fenn> dingo: any thoughts on terminal based calendar programs? i've been using calcurse and am less than impressed 14:35 <@kanzure> even the abstract thought ("data based on evidence") is a step up from the current situation 14:35 <@kanzure> like, even just something based on the physical reality 14:35 <@kanzure> the yales NEURON program for example provides some rudimentary modeling capabilities 14:36 <@kanzure> instead of talking about brain regions they should use ids that refer to entries on a ncbi.nlm.nist.nih.gov site, and then those ids can have properties and things based on, you know, data 14:38 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38 < fenn> but that's not "natural language", i mean humans don't generally speak out loud in long digit sequences or urls 14:38 < fenn> they want to say, "the frobenius frobnicator is laterally impelled to digitate your mom" 14:39 < fenn> whereas RDF or (potentially) lojban might be less ambiguous 14:40 < fenn> remember how hard it was just to define what counted as a chair? 14:40 <@kanzure> i don't care; it's their jobs to be internally consistent 14:40 < fenn> there's always going to be ontological incompatibility 14:41 <@kanzure> i don't care if they use multiple ontologies 14:41 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@50.121.123.38] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:43 < dingo> fenn: i just use 'cal', no, but i am working a lot with the 'blessings' project for python if you care to author one of your own :-) 14:43 < dingo> could help you w/that 14:43 < dingo> trying to get keyboard input submitted upstream 14:44 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@108-65-73-197.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:44 < fenn> dingo: i meant more like an appointment book, but yeah i might scratch something out once i start making appointments again 14:45 < dingo> i'm very much a terminal programer 14:46 < fenn> what's "trying to get keyboard input submitted upstream" mean exactly? 14:47 < dingo> the 'blessings' project on pypi doesn't support keyboard input yet 14:47 < dingo> 'blessings' is to 'curses' for python as 'requests' is to 'urllib2' 14:47 <@kanzure> obv. you should just use urwid 14:48 < dingo> they have different goals, very different 14:48 < dingo> urwid: 14:48 < dingo> move_cursor_to_coords(size, x, y) 14:48 < dingo> Set the cursor position with (x,y) coordinates. Returns True if move succeeded, False otherwise. 14:48 < dingo> blessings: 14:48 < dingo> print term.move(x, y) 14:49 < fenn> urwid looks more like the "dialog box" thing on a linux install 14:49 < dingo> urwid is definitely not 'requests', its more like 'twisted' or something worse 14:49 < dingo> in that the interface is very very involved 14:50 < fenn> what i've seen so far of x84/blessings is closer to my impedance :) 14:51 < dingo> yeah trying to get this pull in first: https://github.com/erikrose/blessings/pull/43 14:52 < dingo> you can word-wrap colored text, or center, rjust/ljust, something urwid can't do, either, i dont think 14:56 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:04 < archels> fenn: I agree whole-heartedly 15:13 -!- klafka [~klafka@67.128.140.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:13 < sbaugh> fenn: i'm also looking for a working terminal based calendar program - namely one that works with caldav 15:14 < sbaugh> i'm almost resigned at this point to eventually switching to emacs and using org-mode 15:16 -!- fireprfHydra [~fireprfHy@ool-44c01f50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:18 -!- klafka [~klafka@67.128.140.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:26 -!- fireprfHydra [~fireprfHy@ool-44c01f50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:28 -!- ua [~ua@unaffiliated/uniqanomaly] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:37 -!- soylentbomb [~k@unaffiliated/soylentbomb] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:53 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@50.121.123.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:54 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@184.75.221.3] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:00 < delinquentme> Lemminkainen, http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/biomedical/devices/teeny-tiny-pacemaker-fits-inside-the-heart 16:00 < delinquentme> so just on the topic of the thing where execution > ideas ( always ) ... theres a reason that its not all about execution. 16:01 < delinquentme> its necessary truly, but its also a sentiment passed around the startup scene because thats what VCs want to perpetuate. 16:13 < fenn> delinquentme: i think you got "spray on bio films which could be applied to 6DOF arm robots" from the hit hollywood movie "the terminator" 16:14 < delinquentme> fenn, sure these are just meant to be throw out ideas 16:14 < delinquentme> something meant to incite conversation .. I guess it worked but not exactly as I had expected 16:14 <@kanzure> why are you "throwing out ideas" 16:14 <@kanzure> okay.. that's not how conversation works. 16:15 < delinquentme> kanzure, bc unimpressed with speed of things. even in SV 16:15 -!- yoleaux [~yoleaux@91.121.84.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:15 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:16 < fenn> i think the issue is they aren't fully formed ideas 16:16 < delinquentme> correct 16:16 < fenn> a random number generator, great, but when it can be outperformed by a solid state device that costs 10 cents, why bother? 16:17 < delinquentme> but its also a big negative when I cant get feedback from networks 16:17 < ParaSa1lin> i think you dont have enough domain knowledge to produce any somewhat-formed ideas 16:17 < delinquentme> Its also a HUGE negative for all of us when IRL social networks have a bit better interplay 16:18 <@kanzure> no, we'd be just as annoyed at you in person 16:18 < delinquentme> I want to see more collaborations happening online ... and esp if we want to see anyone do something in here well one method is clearly better than another 16:18 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, sadly you fall into the category of kissing ass and really non-novel thought forming 16:18 < delinquentme> kanzure, nah you're pretty benign in person 16:18 < ParaSa1lin> do you have anything to contribute to a collaboration other than entropy source? 16:19 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, go jump off a bridge 16:19 < delinquentme> seriously. 16:19 < fenn> yeah we don't really need to use a human as an entropy source, there's chatbots like gradstudentbot that can do that 16:19 * fenn looks around and shrugs 16:20 < delinquentme> I dont even think you've posted up your RL creds and you're flamingly good at critiquing other ideas when not introducing anything novel. 16:20 < ParaSa1lin> maybe a human would be a cryptographic quality entropy source 16:20 < fenn> delinquentme: it's obnoxious when you do a drive-by idea tossing 16:20 < delinquentme> fenn, well I suppose thats where RL would win out. 16:21 < ParaSa1lin> meh, anywhere here knows who i am if theyre paying attention 16:21 < delinquentme> If you want that to be the case ( where RL at least we're not flaming assholes to one another ) 16:21 < delinquentme> well continue along the current path 16:21 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, you said you interned at sens 16:21 <@kanzure> this is not about "irc versus in person" 16:22 < delinquentme> kanzure, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect 16:22 <@kanzure> i assure you i do not suffer from in-person disinhibition 16:22 <@kanzure> or.. erm.. the other way around. 16:22 < delinquentme> yes. Im assured. 16:23 <@kanzure> okay, so now that it's not "irc vs in person", maybe you'll listen 16:23 < delinquentme> thats an interesting projection onto the vagueness of the statement 16:23 < fenn> irc is pseudonymous, not anonymous 16:23 < delinquentme> TLDR: I really hope that IRC would be a place where discussions can be made 16:23 < delinquentme> It feels hostile 16:23 < delinquentme> if thats what you're going for 16:24 <@kanzure> you're really not bringing up discussions though 16:24 < fenn> because you tend to disrupt conversations and steer them towards random ends 16:24 <@kanzure> i don't see why you don't understand any of us 16:25 < fenn> or at best show up and drop a turd in the middle of the room and run off 16:26 < delinquentme> Ah man. I guess this is what happens when I just dont behave / think in process like the rest of you huh? 16:26 < delinquentme> coooool ! little circle jerk boys club 16:26 < fenn> then when someone challenges your idea, you rail about the unfairness of the world and double standards 16:27 < delinquentme> Theres a distinct difference between useful and unuseful crits 16:27 < delinquentme> " thats stupid RTFM " 16:27 < fenn> but you never RTFM 16:27 < delinquentme> yes because thats a shitty response 16:28 <@kanzure> what 16:28 < delinquentme> thats the academic upbringing lazy response. 16:28 <@kanzure> reading things? 16:28 < fredox> "there are no stupid questions, only stupid people" 16:28 < delinquentme> its " I don't want to think so you should read this 10k page manual " 16:28 < fenn> not reading things and wanting people to spoon feed it to you is the lazy attitude 16:29 < delinquentme> fenn, I assume out of anyone in here that you've worked in a lab space. 16:29 < delinquentme> So tell me about how everyone knows everything else. 16:29 < delinquentme> tell me about how the skillsets are totally complete and homogenous. 16:29 < delinquentme> do you see the point I'm trying to make here? 16:30 < fenn> um, you want me to try to extrapolate their educational histories from what i've read on IRC? 16:30 < delinquentme> Do you want it to be collaborative and " fill in the blanks where I can for my kin " 16:30 < delinquentme> or do you want this " I'm too busy to be bothered " 16:30 <@kanzure> fenn: i think there's a deeper underlying bug here 16:30 <@kanzure> fenn: like it's not just spoon feeding; like maybe he has a completely bonkers "theory of knowledge" 16:30 < fenn> kanzure: i think it's just a feeling of entitlement 16:31 < ParaSa1lin> maybe hes just not effective in researching answers to simple questions 16:31 < delinquentme> kanzure, I'm saying if someone doesn't know something it cant hurt that bad to fill in their misunderstandings 16:31 < delinquentme> MAYBE thats what a collaboration should be? 16:31 <@kanzure> we never agreed to collaborate on your fake project 16:31 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, if it was a simple question then all the more reason you should have answered it no? 16:31 < delinquentme> kanzure, then dont. 16:32 < delinquentme> fucking ignore me if it makes you feel better. 16:32 < fenn> delinquentme: so, i learned electronics over IRC from an EE. i would read articles and projects on the web, and when i didn't understand things i would ask for clarification about why they did something a particular way. often the response was to go read a wikipedia article on some subject, which i did 16:33 < delinquentme> fenn, totally and thats fine. 16:33 < fenn> i never railed about how unfair it was that they didn't copy and paste the article sentence by sentence into the client 16:33 < delinquentme> But its also built in that the individual who has the knowledge is too busy to explain it. 16:33 < delinquentme> I mean WHY do programming abstractions work ? 16:33 < delinquentme> Because we're not repeating work. 16:33 < delinquentme> Why does knowlege have to be so substantially different? 16:33 -!- _sol_ [~Sol@c-174-57-58-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:33 < fenn> exactly, which is why you should read the link instead of whining about how they aren't helping 16:34 < ParaSa1lin> hm "completely bonkers theory of knowledge" 16:34 < fenn> we dont want to repeat the work of typing in a wikipedia article 16:34 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, go for it. That was a well articulated thought 16:35 < fenn> i believe we have a no-philosophy rule here 16:36 < delinquentme> is it possible there are time efficiencies built into querying an individuals vrs an article? 16:36 < entelechios> yeaaaaa outta all the irc channels ive been in i woulda hoped this would be one free of sophistry 16:36 < delinquentme> efficiency. 16:36 <@kanzure> oh great, waste my time so that you don't have to read 16:36 < delinquentme> kanzure, clearly its been put to world changing ends. 16:36 <@kanzure> if you wont read papers and articles then why would you read what i type 16:36 < delinquentme> kanzure, topic specificity. 16:36 < fenn> there's an inherent asymmetry in human bandwidth; it's easier to read than to write 16:37 < delinquentme> fenn, as is there in forming new knowledge vrs querying existing! 16:37 < fenn> it's the same thing 16:37 < fenn> uh, i mean "forming new knowledge" is the same as "querying wikipedia" 16:38 < fenn> damn english 16:39 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:40 < fenn> alright who tricked me into reading the "theory of knowledge" article on wikipedia? 16:40 * fenn casts about balefully 16:41 < fredox> just say no to wikipedia 16:41 < fenn> noooooo 16:41 -!- n_bentha [~GuanYu@184.75.213.242] has quit [Quit: до свидания] 16:41 -!- nicotiana_b [~GuanYu@184.75.213.242] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:41 -!- nicotiana_b [~GuanYu@184.75.213.242] has quit [Client Quit] 16:42 < fenn> i want to put wikipedia on a nook e-reader, with offline access and decent formatting 16:42 < fenn> surprisingly, this hasn't been done 16:42 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:43 < fredox> a wikified version of the merck index would be nice 16:43 < fenn> did anyone download it when it was online? 16:44 < fenn> the merck index 16:44 < fredox> i have a copy of the old cd 16:44 < fredox> search paradigm is pretty shit 16:44 < fenn> oh, so do i, apparently 16:45 < ParaSa1lin> merck index is on libgen 16:45 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:47 < fenn> fredox: that would be hard to maintain because you'd have to keep it online and vulnerable to attack, otherwise it would be distributed and downstream edits would get lost because wiki revision control sucks 16:48 < fenn> you'd have to use something like ikiwiki at a minimum to prevent splintering 16:49 < fredox> even just a rip of the database and putting it in useful format would be nice 16:49 < fredox> i use the old paper book version more than the cd 16:52 < fenn> according to some random page i found on the web, "An MSI file is actually an SQL database, for all practical purposes." 16:53 < fenn> but this is out of my area of expertise 16:54 < fenn> can one use the cd without installing anything? 16:54 <@kanzure> someone converted wikipedia to git 16:54 <@kanzure> so that repo is floating around somewhere 16:55 < fredox> fenn: not that i'm aware of 16:57 < fredox> but then i dont do database stuff much 16:58 < delinquentme> fenn what do you want to know on MSI files? 16:59 < delinquentme> if you want me to try and build a DB from it let me know. 17:01 < delinquentme> Ok perhaps this would be more of the liking of the general population here 17:02 < delinquentme> Experiment design on wiring up beta cells to start attempting to produce insulin ? 17:03 < fenn> mdb-tables TheMerckIndex.mdb 17:03 < fenn> Absorptions BPs CASNames CASRNs Densities DerivTexts DerivTypes FlashPoints IndexesOfRefraction ManufacturerNames 17:03 < fenn> raphs MPs Names OpticalRotations PartitionCoefficients PKas Toxicities TradeNames 17:05 < dingo> 23:42 < fenn> i want to put wikipedia on a nook e-reader, with offline access and decent formatting 17:05 < dingo> there is one 17:05 < dingo> an offline, 2x AA battery 17:05 < fredox> delinquentme: i think most people here are working on lots of their own projects, so group collaboration is not something that usually happens 17:06 < fenn> dingo: yeah and i don't like it, for various reasons 17:06 < delinquentme> fredox, that sucks. Looks like the best project collaborations are then restricted to fleshspace 17:06 < fenn> it's missing articles, bad interface, can only do wikipedia, etc 17:07 < delinquentme> I'd love to the the *opposite* trend. 17:10 < fenn> fwiw lots of people telecommute 17:10 < delinquentme> they're also paid to be cordial 17:11 < fenn> the trick is building entire organizations online; i don't think anyone's figured out how to do that without any money, and the people who have money tend to want to do things in meatspace 17:11 < fenn> even EFF has physical offices 17:12 < delinquentme> fenn, IDK i happened to observe it around playing games 17:12 < delinquentme> which happen to be something of "working towards a common end" 17:12 < Lemminkainen> then gamify your MVE 17:12 < delinquentme> IDK I guess I see it mirrored here 17:12 < fenn> Lemminkainen: market value of equity? what? 17:13 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13 < Lemminkainen> minimum viable experiment 17:13 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:14 < fenn> i dont think he has anything viable :\ 17:15 < Lemminkainen> it's worth encouraging someone to act even if they're unsure of what action to take 17:15 < fenn> i disagree 17:15 < fenn> that just leaves us all with a bunch of blinking LEDs and popsicle sticks and hot glue 17:15 < Lemminkainen> I'd rather see a hundred enthusiastic people get turned onto the process of experimentation and actualization of their ideas than to have them be turned away frustrated 17:15 < delinquentme> action here can be both research as well as building things. 17:16 < delinquentme> fenn, I think you're advocating research .. Lemminkainen could be as well. 17:16 < Lemminkainen> research and then experimentation 17:18 < fredox> depends if you're volunteering to do stuff for other people 17:18 < fenn> so, in the context of online collaborations, a minimum viable experiment is what? 17:19 * fenn is imagining a "pimp my lab bench" social photo-sharing website 17:19 < fenn> barf 17:19 < Lemminkainen> ha 17:20 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@184.75.221.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:20 < Lemminkainen> online collaboration in science has a very useful component often missed: replication 17:20 < Lemminkainen> replication of published papers generally fucking sucks 17:20 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:21 < fenn> because it's expensive and has no reward 17:21 < Lemminkainen> but online we can share enough about our experiments to collaboratively build upon them and get that replication hit 17:21 < fenn> when collaborating online you HAVE to replicate, unless you have a really good telepresence setup 17:21 < Lemminkainen> exactly 17:22 < Lemminkainen> academic researchers right now are in competition to publish first instead of collaborating 17:23 < fenn> so, by doing things online we've multiplied the cost of the experiment by N collaborators, while reducing the cost of overhead (?) 17:23 -!- ianmathwiz7 [~chatzilla@67.51.113.178] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:23 < Lemminkainen> I view that as cheaper than having shitty irreproducible experiments leading to incremental experiments not working at all 17:23 < fenn> but better replicability 17:24 -!- ianmathwiz7 [~chatzilla@67.51.113.178] has quit [Client Quit] 17:24 < Lemminkainen> fenn this discussion is thus far interesting but I must afk for an hour to purchase supplies; thank you for your attention 17:25 < fenn> what i have seen happening in reality, for example with the reprap nozzle design experiments of nophead, is that people have different equipment and can't justify the cost of standardizing (or just don't want to) 17:26 < fenn> or can't agree on what should be standard 17:29 < fenn> christ, in 2013 people are still asking if kerning should be applied to chemical structures 17:31 < fenn> (the answer is yes, by the way) 17:33 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@184.75.221.3] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:34 < fenn> oh, you have to type "go" after every command in mdb-sql 17:35 < fenn> great, so i can get data out of TheMerckIndex.mdb 17:37 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:50 -!- sungentry [~itodashev@c-76-23-254-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:59 < Lemminkainen> fenn all those grievances aside, remember that you alone are more powerful than a German kingdom just 5 generations ago 18:01 < fenn> i have no power ladders :( 18:01 < delinquentme> economic, technological, and with information access 18:01 < delinquentme> also you guys would be upset with me if my hypothesis was " try a bunch of shit ... see what happens " 18:02 < delinquentme> but I lold 18:02 < fenn> if anyone cares, apt-get install mdb-tools; for i in `mdb-tables -1 TheMerckIndex.mdb`; do mdb-export TheMerckIndex.mdb $i > $i.csv ; do 18:02 < fenn> s/; do/; done/ 18:02 < Lemminkainen> delinquentme go ahead and try a bunch of shit, just remember to include negative controls or you aren't measuring anything 18:03 < Lemminkainen> trying is better than talking about trying, in general 18:03 < delinquentme> true! 18:03 < fenn> how is it possible that csv is more efficient than mdb format 18:03 < delinquentme> Lemminkainen, let me buy you a beer 18:03 < delinquentme> or get you drunk. 18:03 < delinquentme> your choice . 18:03 < Lemminkainen> I need to refactor this Android app tonight, otherwise I'd take you up on that 18:03 < delinquentme> fenn, csv is pretty lightweight no? You're talking "comma separated values" right? 18:04 < fenn> right 18:04 < delinquentme> Lemminkainen, women in coffee event 18:04 < delinquentme> << is here ... didn't plan it this way 18:04 < delinquentme> I swear these things happen around me 18:04 < Lemminkainen> "women in coffee" 18:04 < delinquentme> nono srsly. thats the event name. 18:04 < Lemminkainen> they would probably do well to iterate beyond that name 18:05 < fenn> is it a giant vat of coffee with scantily clad ladies doing formation swimming? 18:05 < delinquentme> ^advertising! 18:05 < delinquentme> Lemminkainen, are you in mountain view or up here in oakland? 18:05 < Lemminkainen> I'm at Hackistan 18:05 < delinquentme> lol 18:05 < delinquentme> TIL. 18:06 < delinquentme> sooooo I was gonna wait till monday to email this prof... 18:06 < delinquentme> I wonder if I'll get lucky w a response tonight 18:08 -!- justanotheruser1 [~andrew@74.45.122.34] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:08 < fenn> the internet seems to think that's 3276 logan street 18:10 < Lemminkainen> fuck that's online? 18:10 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@184.75.221.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:11 < fenn> better get to work on that missile defense project 18:11 < Lemminkainen> it's on Foursquare, of course 18:11 < Lemminkainen> I blame #nerdtracker 18:27 < Lemminkainen> any ideas on how to reduce the cost of attending FutureMED? 18:27 < cpopell> who's hosting it? 18:28 < Lemminkainen> Singularity University 18:28 <@kanzure> time for flight 18:28 < cpopell> Hmm. 18:28 < cpopell> I know a couple SU people but none well enough I could pull strings. 18:28 < cpopell> Bleargh. 18:28 < Lemminkainen> $10k for Dre and I to attend is a bit much to justify right now when we'd rather spend that on reagents 18:28 < cpopell> Gotta bug my Raytheon contact Monday 18:28 <@kanzure> what do you need from them 18:29 < cpopell> kanzure: me? 18:29 <@kanzure> they are boring but i have at lesst 3 blackmails 18:29 <@kanzure> i mean strings 18:29 < Lemminkainen> I need greatly reduced prices to attend FutureMED because otherwise I cannot go 18:29 < cpopell> oh, singularity university 18:29 <@kanzure> oh kust show up 18:30 <@kanzure> they wont kick you out 18:30 < Lemminkainen> I may do exactly that 18:30 < cpopell> So I found the best place to recruit clients 18:30 < cpopell> I can't afford them mostly yet 18:30 < cpopell> but I found them 18:30 < Lemminkainen> and then I can spend cash on boutique polymers instead 18:30 < Lemminkainen> do tell cpopell you cocktease you 18:31 < cpopell> Intelligence community meetups 18:31 < cpopell> especially ones that are trying to be 'cutting edge' 18:31 < Lemminkainen> O_____ 18:31 < Lemminkainen> o 18:31 < Lemminkainen> the other eye fell off 18:31 < Lemminkainen> bahahahahahhah 18:32 < cpopell> Yeah, I had better luck with people approaching me there than I've had in months 18:34 -!- justanotheruser1 [~andrew@74.45.122.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:35 < Lemminkainen> you need a bigger winch 18:36 < cpopell> Well 18:36 < cpopell> Monday is hopefully next step with Hungarian dudes 18:36 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:48 -!- klafka [~klafka@67.128.140.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:51 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@184.75.221.3] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:55 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:b240:8200:e8ac:2485:1471:4993] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:00 -!- fireprfHydra [~fireprfHy@ool-44c01f50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:02 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@184.75.221.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:03 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@74.45.122.34] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:04 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:06 -!- sungentry [~itodashev@c-76-23-254-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 19:07 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@74.45.122.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:20 -!- fireprfHydra 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[~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:23 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:25 -!- cpopell [~cpopell@pool-173-66-244-143.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:04 -!- AlonzoTG [~atg@pool-72-66-99-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08 <@kanzure> okay back in austin 23:13 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:b240:8200:e8ac:2485:1471:4993] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:31 -!- erasmus is now known as this_is_not_me 23:49 -!- this_is_not_me [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has quit [Quit: -=DUNE=-] --- Log closed Sat Oct 26 00:00:05 2013