--- Log opened Thu Nov 07 00:00:17 2013
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04:17 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA | http://gnusha.org/logs http://diyhpl.us/wiki http://groups.google.com/group/diybio | banned by the Federal Death Administration | official paperbot fan club
04:17 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Sat Mar 23 20:40:45 2013]
04:17 [Users ##hplusroadmap]
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08:31 < ThomasEgi> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10706234
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08:49 < kanzure_> hrm why didn't paperbot reply
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09:06 < ThomasEgi> i wondered aswell.
09:06 < ThomasEgi> not that the paper is horribly important for my survival. but the abstract contained some interesting numbers
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10:16 < delinquentme> paperbot, http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?arnumber=6518135&sortType%3Dasc_p_Sequence%26filter%3DAND(p_IS_Number:6600801)
10:16 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1109%2FTBME.2013.2264632
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10:22 <@archels> .title
10:22 < kanzure_> that bot went away
10:23 <@archels> yeah, its server was seized
10:23 <@archels> I thought they launched a temporary instance elsewhere, but that's probably only in a few channels
10:27 < delinquentme> oh so the paper retrieval no work?
10:27 < kanzure_> he is talking about another bot
10:37 < delinquentme> I guess im not using paperbot correctly?  links == no good
10:38 < kanzure_> it just means that paperbot is broken
10:38 < kanzure_> feel free to fix it.. https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot/issues
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10:45 < delinquentme> Also I was trying to recall who the SF startup was whos doing health insurance for the 1%
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10:54 < delinquentme> kanzure_, Thoughts on the issue? Paperbot basically has template operations for each journal right?
10:54 < delinquentme> and then the issues are basically crawling the website, logging in and then selecting the right url for download?
10:55 < kanzure_> the issues on github are just various bugs that people have noticed
10:55 < kanzure_> paperbot is poorly written and needs a rewrite in many places. when the zotero translators fail then paperbot turns into a pile of if statements (which is really bad).
11:04  * delinquentme pets paperbot 
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12:28 < ua> hi
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12:29 < kanzure_> ua: hello
12:30 < ua> i was lurking in here long time ago under my longer nick, uniqanomaly
12:30 < Dantespeaks> the mere thought of studying a programming language such as python, and chemistry scares the shit out of me.
12:31 < Dantespeaks> spending all those years in the arts...
12:31 < ua> had this idea about freeeing all the science papers, came back to me lately
12:31 < ua> Dantespeaks, check out http://learnpythonthehardway.org/
12:31 < ua> easy way in
12:31 < ua> :)
12:32 < Dantespeaks> i downloaded video tutorials and stuff on torrents...
12:32 < Dantespeaks> thanks, i have that book as well. fearful of opening them. :)
12:33 < ua> so with freeing all the science papers,  idea was to have python app for android, ppl install it and it acts as a client which is downloading all papers from within of university networks
12:33 < ua> and place where all the papers are is distributed amongst 100s or 1000s of computers with system based on https://tahoe-lafs.org/~warner/pycon-tahoe.html
12:34 < delinquentme> cool idea or dumb idea: 3d printing of macro molecules
12:34 < delinquentme> execution seems simple as I can just make a conversion script and then sell that shit on shapeways
12:34 < delinquentme> zero upfront investment
12:35 < kanzure_> ua: it should be a proxy that gets installed on android and iphone phones
12:35 < kanzure_> ua: then a server logs into each proxy to download papers
12:36 < ua> kanzure_, yea i was thinking more about just batch downloading everything there is to download and dumping it onto distributed file system
12:36 < ua> yea but proxy is nice idea for starters
12:36 < ua> phones try to fetch papers based on queue on some server
12:37 < kanzure_> the problem with batch downloading is that your implementation is probably wrong, so the proxy allows a central server to have updated scrapers without having to push out new versions to each phone
12:37 < ua> yea but phones could just update scrapers from repo on github
12:38 < kanzure_> not entirely, most phones don't have git installed
12:38 < ua> and then upload pdf papers straight into distributed filesystem
12:38 < kanzure_> for example, most phone users in college don't have root on their phone, so you can't do arbitrary app updates
12:38 < ua> kivy.org, so it would be python
12:39 < kanzure_> you are still restricted by the constraints of apps on that platform
12:39 < kanzure_> kivy just changes how you write the app
12:39 < kanzure_> whether it's python bytecode or dalvik bytecode doesn't seriously change your ability to force an update
12:39 < ua> yea it woudlnt be an app update, just newer scripts would be downloaded into app data dir
12:40 < ua> newer scrapers *
12:40 < kanzure_> why though? the only thing that you really need is a connection
12:40 < ua> yea but then its decentralised amongst lots of phones
12:40 < kanzure_> yes.. you have multiple different versions scraping all the time... which is bad.
12:40 < ua> and that enables you to get all of the papers
12:41 < ua> no, they would synchronize with the distributed filesystem
12:41 < kanzure_> have you ever built a scraper with more than a few hundred nodes?
12:41 < ua> to check what more is to download
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12:42 < ua> yea thats the challenge, each phone would work independently
12:42 < ua> there would be one or more queues in the distributed filesystem
12:42 < ua> my thinking is with distributed FS theres nothing central to take down
12:43 < kanzure_> i think it's a dumb idea to put a queue in a file system like that
12:43 < ua> just few trusted people would have admin access to file system
12:43 < ua> some bots perhaps
12:43 < ua> for indexing etc
12:44 < ua> there could be dunno, different folders for each user(as in phone uploading papers)
12:44 < ua> bots take care of checking if files are legit
12:44 < kanzure_> you suck at system design
12:44 < ua> moving and indexing
12:44 < ua> thank you very much, i'm just trying to conceptualize this stuff
12:45 < kanzure_> i believe i've already made it clear why your idea is bad, but you just keep on talking and ignoring me
12:47 < ua> and i appreciate criticism, not ignoring at all, im gonna do more research
12:47 < kanzure_> with a distributed file system acting as a queue you run into issues regarding locking, which doesn't scale to many nodes
12:47 < kanzure_> you sound like you're already extremely committed to the exact implementation you've suggested
12:47 < kanzure_> so i sort of doubt your research will change your mind
12:49 < kanzure_> there are other proposed implementations of very similar systems for using phones to download papers that have been written up over here: https://groups.google.com/group/science-liberation-front
12:49 < ua> ok thanks
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13:53 < Dantespeaks> does anyone see advantages of living in an amazon rainforest? literally. I may get a chance to go there as a photographer.
13:54 < Dantespeaks> but, science-wise, what are the advantages?
14:00 < ua> Dantespeaks, advantages? these spiders, snakes may try a fresh human being first and last time in their lives
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14:15 < Dantespeaks> yeah well, biodiversity and it's threats are expected...
14:15 < Dantespeaks> what worries me are the mosquitoes and yellow fever.
14:16 < Dantespeaks> but for people who wants information on DNA of certain species or plant-life for some drug creation,
14:16 < Dantespeaks> i could imagine living there could be of use.
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15:06 < ua> hi cataracts
15:06 < cataracts> ua, hi
15:06 < cataracts> ua is this uninaquolomy
15:06 < ua> yeyeye
15:06 < ua> check in whois :P
15:07 < cataracts> cool, do you know who i am? :)
15:07 < ua> yea i remember
15:08 < cataracts> cool, how are you doing?
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15:08 < ua> %o a little
15:08 < ua> o/oo
15:08 < ua> ;)
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18:40 < Dantespeaks> is there a company name generator of sort any where. something plausible...
18:40 < Dantespeaks> i've no imagination for names. :(
18:41 < Dantespeaks> I was diagnosed with a condition called "Vertigo"
18:41 < Dantespeaks> and was given a medication called "Serc" today.
18:41 < Dantespeaks> inner ear, possible fluid build up or calcium deposit formation leading to complete off balance and dizziness.
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18:48 < ua> Dantespeaks, what would be comapny name related to, i feel like imagining names
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19:12 < Dantespeaks> something to do with information
19:12 < Dantespeaks> kinda like a publishing company
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19:21 < Dantespeaks> What is the difference between Python, Python 2, and Python 3? Why is there 3 different references asking me to start with them?
19:22 < Dantespeaks> If I start with Python, will I miss out on Python 3?
19:25 < Adifex> some differences between 2.7 and 3
19:26 < Adifex> but might as well start with 3
19:28 < Dantespeaks> So if I learn from references made for Python, i'll have to re-learn many other things with 2 and 3?
19:28 < Dantespeaks> but the fundamentals remains the same, and what they mean by 2 and 3 are the versions for the clients?
19:28 < Dantespeaks> ok got it.
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20:53 < fredox> Dantespeaks: which country's rainforest?
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20:56 < Dantespeaks> brazil
20:56 < Dantespeaks> amazonas
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21:32 < joshcryer> when is additive 3d printing going to go away?
21:33 < joshcryer> industrial 3d manufacturing of objects, plastic, or metal, is largely subtractive (even with molds you subtract the extraneous bits)
21:34 < Dantespeaks> they would have different properties im guessing but additive would be more convenient for rapid prototyping?
21:34 < Dantespeaks> both are a necessity.
21:41 < Dantespeaks> the question is, when is teleporation assembly of atoms going to appear?
21:41 < Dantespeaks> then we don't need additive or subtractive. Just a hustle of atoms appearing.
21:42 < fredox> technically that would be additive
21:43 < fredox> and in answer to joshcryer - never
21:43 < joshcryer> oh I definitely don't mean to totally shit on additive 3d printing, it's useful, but massive large industrial stuff is either subtractive or deformative
21:44 < joshcryer> (I consider molds deformative, not additive)
21:44 < fredox> yeah this whole "in the future we'll just print what we need" is a crock
21:45 < fredox> but as a designer that stuff is bloody handy
21:45 < joshcryer> I'm loving that we're still printing and working at it but I don't see, currently, an effort to move beyond it
21:45 < joshcryer> oh no doubt at all, fredox
21:45 < joshcryer> what made me come here after a lull / hiatus was peachy printer
21:45 < joshcryer> I think it's a step up cost-tech-wise (using the sound card for positioning? brilliant)
21:46 < joshcryer> but it's the same old :/
21:46 < kanzure_> what's stopping you from buying some injection molding equipment?
21:47 < joshcryer> my not finding it very useful probably
21:47 < fredox> actually saw a massive one for sale second hand for $7k recently
21:48 < joshcryer> I'm leaning toward machining type stuff
21:49 < joshcryer> the obession with plastic is also annoying :P
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21:53 < joshcryer> Dantespeaks, btw I may be in a minority in here but I think Smalley was right regarding self-replicating nanotech
21:54 < joshcryer> Dantespeaks, so that whole self-assembly thing to me is a crock and waste of time
21:54 < kanzure_> how do you explain cells, then?
21:55 < joshcryer> they're made of hydrocarbons?
21:57 < Dantespeaks> from nothing to something is definitely additive, but, to the naked eye, it would be a assembly, a gathering/hustling together of atoms. more likely just appearing during those times. you've seen star trek. but is there a way to transfer atoms without need of nanites? prolly.
21:58 < joshcryer> I approach Smalley's argument differently, from my POV, if we could do metals or other materials with self-assembling nano-tech, evolution almost certainly would've done it by now (beyond meager biological functions, mind you; there are cases of gearing and whatnot in nature)
22:00 < kanzure_> that's like saying "if nucleosynthesis was possible, cells would already be doing it"
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22:05 < joshcryer> kanzure_, no need to be combative, your analogy is silly, cells have been shown to handle metals at a molecular level, no cells have been shown to do nucleosynthesis at a cellular level
22:06 < joshcryer> Smalley's point was that large scale industrial level structures couldn't be done with a cellular environment without it being a liquid and which would limit the growth of such systems. It had nothing to do with what was possible, you could make a car with it self-replicating nanotech, but it wouldn't be exponential, and it'd grow out of a gel-like liquid structure.
22:07 < joshcryer> Which industry would be able to do shitloads faster with only a little more energy expended.
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22:07 < kanzure_> you said nothing of his claims about exponential processes- simply that self-assembling metal nanostructures were infeasible.
22:07 < joshcryer> Drexler pretends that you can drop a nanotech seed on the ground and magically a car appears in exponential time, it's absurd.
22:08 < joshcryer> "waste of time" is not "infeasible"
22:08 < joshcryer> there may be areas where it would be feasible if not desirable that I have not considered
22:08 < kanzure_> i don't remember claims about exponential *time* from drexler. was this engines of creation?
22:10 < joshcryer> Yeah. I should back down, I'm not certain he said that. But! He uses exponential metaphors often, if I recall correctly he talked about building a building with perfect, absolutely perfect metal bricks (whuch fused together; they were bricks to remove heat which would invariably occur) made of self-replicating nanites building a skyscraper in a few hours, though.
22:11 < kanzure_> "in a few hours" i'd like to see if he put math for that anywhere
22:11 < joshcryer> But, I'm not certain he said that was possible, or if he was just suggesting a metaphor for exponential growth.
22:11 < kanzure_> i think there might be some generic thermodynamic constraints that would prevent "in a few hours" from being a feasible thing
22:11 < joshcryer> Bah, OK, I'll look for it.
22:12 < joshcryer> http://e-drexler.com/d/06/00/EOC/EOC_Chapter_4.html
22:12 < joshcryer> checking, cursory glance is my memory isn't wrong, but I will skim
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22:13 < kanzure_> "Free 20th anniversary e-book edition" did we seriously fucking spend that much time scanning the book in
22:15 < joshcryer> damn 1986...
22:15 < kanzure_> fenn did the scan after 2007, i think in 2010
22:15 < joshcryer> yeah I stand by my Drexler overview after skimming
22:15 < kanzure_> so this was already available
22:15 < kanzure_> hmmm
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 08 00:00:18 2013