--- Log opened Wed Nov 13 00:00:23 2013 00:13 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:40 -!- Dantespeaks [~Dantespea@184.175.46.205] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:15 -!- kyknos_ [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:23 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.151.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:25 -!- rkos [~rkos@net-93-147-150-57.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:57 -!- upgrayeddd [uid2969@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hemsjljevntpijep] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 02:08 -!- ua [~ua@unaffiliated/uniqanomaly] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:15 -!- ua [~ua@unaffiliated/uniqanomaly] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:24 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:48 -!- Viper168 is now known as Viper168_ 02:49 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@117.254.216.50] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:49 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:50 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:53 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:17 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:32 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:50 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-3-59.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:01 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:47 < kyknos__> paperbot, http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/03/01/medethics-2011-100411.short 04:47 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/After-birth%20abortion%3A%20why%20should%20the%20baby%20live%3F.pdf 05:10 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:12 -!- fredox [~chatzilla@c27-253-22-47.brodm4.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:14 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@cm6.sigma238.maxonline.com.sg] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:14 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@cm6.sigma238.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Changing host] 05:14 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:33 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@117.254.216.50] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:03 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@117.254.216.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:03 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@117.254.216.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:24 -!- aelinoea [~aelinoea@a88-113-45-152.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:26 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-67-176-51-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:36 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-67-176-51-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:48 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-3-59.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:49 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:59 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:02 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@2001:67c:2190:c0de:40d0:aabe:bde2:aa7f] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:07 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:34 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@2001:67c:2190:c0de:40d0:aabe:bde2:aa7f] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:34 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@2001:67c:2190:c0de:40d0:aabe:bde2:aa7f] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:43 < eleitl> hi guys 07:44 < kanzure> hello 07:44 < eleitl> how's things? 07:44 < kanzure> i think brainwallets are neat 07:44 < eleitl> as long as your passphrase has enough entropy 07:45 < kanzure> yes, that seems to be the difficult part 07:45 < eleitl> you can't really remember high-entropy phrases reliable, so you have to write them down 07:45 < eleitl> at which point you can just generate it all by machine, and print it out 07:46 < eleitl> there's a JS page which can do it offline 07:46 < eleitl> then you hit print, and have it all on paper, with optical barcodes to boot 07:46 < kanzure> where was that page? 07:47 < eleitl> isn't this one available offline: http://brainwallet.org/ 07:48 < eleitl> a friend of mine has a working copy, I never bothered to save it 08:09 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:10 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:21 -!- Dantespeaks [~Dantespea@184.175.46.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:44 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:50 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:50 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:57 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:01 < JayDugger> https://github.com/brainwallet/brainwallet.github.com 09:02 < JayDugger> I don't recognize some of the cryptocurrencies available in the pulldown on brainwallet. 09:02 < JayDugger> Each of them has a link, so off to learn something new. 09:02 < JayDugger> Good morning, eleitl. 09:10 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:10 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:14 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:17 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:17 < kanzure> "The Neuromorphic Computing sub-project of the HBP will design, implement and operate a Neuromorphic Computing Platform that allows neuroscientists and theoreticians to perform experiments with configurable neuromorphic computing systems. The platform will provide two systems. The first is based on physical (analogue or mixed-signal) emulations of brain models, running 10^4 times faster than real time, and ideally suited for studies of ... 09:17 < kanzure> ... synaptic plasticity, development and learning. The second system is based on numerical models running in real time on digital multicore architectures, and is suited for problems that require hard real-time performance, such as robotics. The role of the Neuroinformatics group at UNIC is to develop software that will make the neuromorphic platform accessible to researchers in neuroscience, cognitive sciences and computer science, and to ... 09:17 < kanzure> ... investigate the capabilities and performance of the neuromorphic computing systems." 09:19 < rkos> it seems like a big challenge though 09:19 < kanzure> which part? 09:19 < rkos> building a simulation model of the brain that is 09:19 < kanzure> it's not a simulation 09:20 < rkos> the american version got some calculations done and what they seem to be facing is a pretty big problem imo http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/26/science/proposed-brain-mapping-project-faces-significant-hurdles.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 09:20 < rkos> the complete brain generates about 300,000 petabytes of data each year. 09:21 < rkos> The Large Hadron Collider in Geneva generates about 10 petabytes of data annually. 09:21 < kanzure> none of those statements or anything in the article indicates a "big problem" 09:22 < rkos> its more data than we have the means to deal with 09:22 < kanzure> that's not true 09:23 < ParahSai1in> http://news.thomasnet.com/IMT/2013/09/04/selective-laser-sintering-patent-expiration-will-not-be-a-game-changer/ 09:23 < kanzure> if there is any challenge in emulating human brains it is not going to be data storage. it's more things like "getting enough people to agree to investigate a sufficient number of types of neurons with standard electrophysiology setups." 09:24 < kanzure> managing exabytes of data is relatively simple in comparison 09:24 < kanzure> or hooking up hardware for such 09:24 < rkos> but theres 2 programs with millions of funding trying to do this now 09:25 < kanzure> that nytimes article seems to conflate the connectome project with the human brain project, which isn't a good thing to do 09:25 < rkos> im not saying that it cant be of any use im just saying that the whole thing itself is just more than we can currently deal with 09:25 -!- joehot [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:26 < rkos> HGP had great results and produced good stuff but we didnt figure out the genome through HGP either 09:26 < kanzure> what does "figure out the genome through HGP" mean 09:27 < rkos> deliver on all the promises that were made at the time 09:27 < rkos> curing all diseases and whatnot... 09:27 < kanzure> their promises were something like "we promise to sequence 10,000 genes" or something 09:27 < kanzure> no i think that was the journalism 09:27 < kanzure> this is why you shouldn't read the news 09:27 < rkos> thats not really true 09:27 < rkos> you shouldnt think of the scientists as somekind of angels 09:27 < kanzure> if you go look at the grant proposals i doubt they claimed that all forms of cancer will be cured just because you can sequence a handful of genes 09:28 < kanzure> i never said anything about angels, fuck you 09:28 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@117.254.216.9] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:28 < rkos> well arent you an angry one 09:28 < kanzure> it is infuriating to talk with you and now you're making up statements about angels 09:28 < kanzure> yes of course i'm angry 09:28 < kanzure> all of your messages are full of shit 09:28 -!- Guest77439 [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:28 < rkos> writing grant proposals was just part of getting their funding 09:28 < rkos> especially those on the corporate sector did make lots of claims about this stuff 09:29 < rkos> i recommend checking out biocapital 09:29 < kanzure> iirc those were not officially part of the human genome project, yo 09:29 < fredox> thats what marketers do 09:29 < rkos> http://www.dukeupress.edu/Biocapital/ 09:29 < kanzure> the human genome project was officially just the academic labs 09:29 < rkos> well not officially 09:29 < kanzure> not venter's company etc. 09:29 < kanzure> well, sorry dude. words have meaning in this channel. 09:29 < rkos> but they worked together helping each other make money unofficially 09:30 < rkos> your meaning that is? 09:30 < kanzure> sigh 09:30 < rkos> words only have given meaning, or constructed meaning 09:31 < kanzure> at least i don't conflate "figuring out the genome" with "marketing promises", wtf man 09:31 < rkos> trying to just shut out part of what people are trying to say with them leaves you with a smaller world 09:31 < kanzure> so, if you're right and i'm wrong, it would mean that i can't deduce what people are intending to say from their words, but if we go the other way around, it just means you're an idiot, which is a much smaller price that i can afford to pay 09:32 < rkos> you probably thought i was making an attack against you or the brain project that you supported, i was just making a general claim of tiredness about these promises 09:32 < kanzure> this is nothing about attacks 09:33 < rkos> you cant deduce what people are intending to say with their wods for certain 09:33 < rkos> thats an illusion 09:33 < kanzure> you are conflating crap you read in the news with the project 09:33 < rkos> you can just keep thinking of me as an idiot on the outskirts of your shrinking world of words 09:33 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@117.254.216.9] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:33 < rkos> you think the project doesnt benefit from the media? 09:33 < kanzure> why should i care if it benefits or not? 09:33 < rkos> this is public funding we're talking about 09:34 < kanzure> why should i care if it's public or private funding ? 09:34 < kanzure> whether it's benefiting from media or private/public funding has little barring on whether or not you're interpreting the promises correctly 09:35 < rkos> because those public extravagant claims build public support which builds public funding 09:35 < kanzure> can you explain how that links back to your original complaint? i'm really not seeing it: 09:35 < kanzure> 09:20 < rkos> the american version got some calculations done and what they seem to be facing is a pretty big problem imo 09:36 < rkos> that the general tech salvation spirit goes overboard because of the public extravaganza built in newspapers and fictional media and i try to offer some counter for it for the sake of diversity 09:36 < kanzure> what tech salvation spirit! is this about angels again? 09:37 < rkos> you're purposefully being obtuse arent you? 09:37 < kanzure> no 09:37 < rkos> well can i ask you why are you coming at me with your stuff now? 09:37 < kanzure> at this point it seems like you're jumping around in the conversation a lot and it's really hard to follow 09:38 < rkos> i just pasted a link which claimed it has problems and then you go on an attack on me, why do you care? 09:38 < rkos> well whats the conversation all about kanzure 09:38 < kanzure> i assumed you were using the link as evidence and i was trying to explain why your reasoning was wrong 09:38 < rkos> evidence for what? 09:39 < kanzure> the position you held 09:39 < rkos> it is evidence for itself which is the only claim i made, that it is 09:39 < kanzure> what? 09:39 < rkos> the position of the newspaper article? 09:39 < kanzure> for the position you mentioned prior to you dropping the link 09:40 < rkos> the position was linked to the article 09:40 < rkos> what would you classify as a big problem then? 09:41 < kanzure> i already gave my opinion on that: 09:41 < kanzure> 09:23 < kanzure> if there is any challenge in emulating human brains it is not going to be data storage. it's more things like "getting enough people to agree to investigate a sufficient number of types of neurons with standard electrophysiology setups." 09:41 < kanzure> 09:24 < kanzure> managing exabytes of data is relatively simple in comparison 09:41 < kanzure> 09:24 < kanzure> or hooking up hardware for such 09:41 < rkos> well but as i said there are 2 well funded projects for it so thats not really the problem 09:42 < rkos> and is it really simple to process exabytes of data into something usable? 09:42 < rkos> i assume of the 10 petabytes LHC goes through in a year much of it isnt really integrated into anything 09:43 < eleitl> good morning, JayDugger. 09:43 < kanzure> why do you make that assumption 09:43 < eleitl> I missed some nice conversation, apparently. 09:43 < kanzure> eleitl: hardly 09:43 < rkos> why would i not make that assumption? do they really make something with all of the data they get from their experiments? 09:44 < eleitl> beats fighting with an NFS mount on VMWare 09:44 < eleitl> what's the beef with brain simulation? 09:44 < kanzure> eleitl: hey, that's almost exactly what's on my todo list today.. 09:44 < kanzure> eleitl: dunno, he's incomprehensible and full of it 09:45 < eleitl> OmniOS+napp-it=NFS export 09:45 < rkos> you just dont want to talk to me then? 09:45 < eleitl> rkos, what is the issue with the amount of data? 09:45 < kanzure> rkos: i am finding it extremely hard to communicate with you, sorry 09:45 < rkos> how do you process it all? 09:45 < eleitl> that's live data, so it's just sitting there, simmering along 09:45 < rkos> but you have to integrate into somekind of model 09:46 < eleitl> you process it by build a large honking n-torus of many millions to billions of nodes 09:46 < ParahSai1in> is this guy delinquentme? 09:46 < eleitl> the model is granted, I thought you were talking about the hardware/managment aspect 09:46 < eleitl> of course we don't have good models yet 09:46 < kanzure> ParahSai1in: no, he is definitely not delinquentme. he seems to be capable of talking about a *similar* topic for more than 5 minutes. so he can't be the same person. 09:47 < eleitl> have you looked at the Kwabena/Spaun collaboration? 09:47 < kanzure> eleitl: we don't have good models, but it's easy to sum a trillion numbers with physical hardware 09:47 < rkos> whats that? 09:47 < rkos> i dont mean storing 300 exabytes but making something out of it 09:47 < kanzure> eleitl: it's not like we forgot to write the device drivers or something 09:47 < eleitl> Spaun is a toy brain model, and Boahen will make it run in realtime 09:48 < rkos> and im pretty sure that storing 300 exabytes a year is a big strain too 09:48 < eleitl> the data is live, so it has to live in memory 09:48 < eleitl> your storage is just for checkpoints, and a few trajectory frames, maybe 09:48 < rkos> havent heard of spaun kwabena or boahen but ill check it out 09:49 < eleitl> Kwabena Boahen is a hybrid hardware guy, very sensible 09:49 < rkos> what do you mean that its live 09:49 < eleitl> it lives in core, not disk 09:49 < eleitl> disk is effectively static 09:49 < eleitl> so your limit is core, not disk 09:50 < eleitl> am I making sense? 09:50 < rkos> can the core handle much more than the disk then? 09:50 < eleitl> it can handle less, which is why it's your bottleneck 09:51 < kanzure> iirc information density per unit static storage is higher and is expected to be higher for quite a while longer 09:51 < eleitl> exascale is about ops 09:51 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:51 < eleitl> kanzure: exactly 09:51 < rkos> but well if i understand the simulation itself will be limited by the cores capacities but the 300 exobytes/year will have to be stored on disks somewhere or just lost 09:51 < kanzure> it's not a simulation, like i said the first time 09:52 -!- augur [~augur@129-2-129-33.wireless.umd.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:52 < rkos> 300 exobytes i understood to be the output of the simulation 09:52 < rkos> what kind of computing the simulation itself will require i dont know 09:52 < eleitl> you can't store the whole trajectory, so you have to consider it a numeric experiment 09:52 < eleitl> you have to instrument it, and record from your probes 09:53 < eleitl> you can also extract observables, which are all far more compact than your giant glob of data 09:53 < eleitl> you only need space for checkpoints, and maybe a few trajectory frames 09:53 < eleitl> so 10-100x of your core would be enough 09:53 < rkos> isnt what they try to do take all the observable qualities of the brain and make a computerized model of those qualities? 09:54 < kanzure> they are emulating individual neurons and subcomponents of neurons 09:54 < eleitl> they're loading the simulation with data from biology, and switch on the physics 09:54 < eleitl> it's much easier to record from live data than from live animals 09:54 < kanzure> eleitl: or at least that's their claim. i worry sometimes that their scientists will opt to cheat... 09:54 < eleitl> try putting in a million probes into a rat 09:54 < eleitl> can't be done 09:54 < kanzure> gladly 09:55 < eleitl> exascale will be a very hard engineering challenge, so they will have to work with that 09:55 < kanzure> arguably exascale is not anywhere near the largest challenge 09:55 < rkos> whats the checkpoints and trajectory frames 09:55 < eleitl> hybrid and Spinnaker-like approaches are also far more interesting than generic exascale iron 09:56 < eleitl> a checkpoint is where you write an image you can later resume from 09:56 < eleitl> just like suspend/resume in your notebook 09:56 < eleitl> when your jobs are many months, you can't afford to restart from scratch 09:56 < rkos> notebook? 09:56 < kanzure> computer 09:56 < eleitl> when your system state is written to nonvolatile storage 09:56 < rkos> you mean you save something? 09:56 < eleitl> yes, precisely 09:57 < kanzure> it is a common feature of laptops, netbooks, notebooks 09:57 < rkos> and trajectory frames? 09:57 < eleitl> in case of simulations, you write checkpoints periodically 09:57 < eleitl> your system state is evolving along a trajectory in state space 09:58 < eleitl> in discrete time steps, it's evolving along frames, just like in the movie 09:58 < rkos> movie? 09:58 < eleitl> if you write a few frames to disk, you can look at changes 09:58 < rkos> oh frames in movies? 09:58 < eleitl> movie, film 09:58 < eleitl> celluloid, yes 09:58 < rkos> so you store the previous states? 09:58 < kanzure> not usually 09:58 < eleitl> you can also instrument your running simulations, and only record things of interest 09:59 < kanzure> you don't store all previous states because that would be too costly 09:59 < eleitl> you can't dump every frame to disk, that would be prohibitive 09:59 < eleitl> so you select a given window of interest 10:00 < kanzure> eleitl: how about this one, http://ms-brainwallet.github.io/ 10:01 < rkos> so the model of the brain starts with taking empirical data by observing neurons? inserting that data into somekind of computer in which that data goes through different states of which some are saved as checkpoints? 10:01 < eleitl> kanzure: never seen it before, look at the code whether you can trust it 10:02 < eleitl> rkos: you're building numerical models of live neurons 10:02 < eleitl> ideally, you're simulating the same system you've observed before 10:02 < kanzure> eleitl: i think it would be interesting to monitor for simple deterministic addresses, like dictionary words -> btc address and then spend when something enters the blockchain on that address. 10:02 < rkos> well they arent going to contain all the properties of live neurons because we probably havent observed every aspect of neurons 10:03 < eleitl> rkos: science starts somewhere 10:03 < kanzure> there are electrophysiology studies of many thousands of types of neurons 10:03 < rkos> yeah i know i like the idea 10:03 < eleitl> right now we've got a glut of structure which does things we don't yet understand 10:03 < eleitl> especially, large scale dynamics need a certain system size to emerge 10:03 < kanzure> this is how you end up with things like http://channelpedia.net/ 10:04 < eleitl> so, you have to scan large biological systems, and build rather large computers to run these 10:04 < eleitl> and then you'll see what you'll see 10:04 < eleitl> if your simulated system starts doing the same things as your wet system, you know you're on the right track 10:04 < kanzure> yeesh "Currently, Channelpedia contains ~180,000 abstracts related to ion channels from Pubmed." 10:04 < eleitl> only 10:04 < rkos> but it seems like an extremely bruteforce way to deal with mental illness 10:05 < kanzure> it's not for mental illness 10:05 * eleitl does only care about immortality 10:05 < eleitl> you die, get scanned, and live happily ever after 10:05 < rkos> like i like the science aspect but the stuff you hear eg obama say about the BRAIN initiative and that sort of stuff just doesnt seem sensible 10:06 < eleitl> why are you beleiving anything that politicians say? 10:06 < rkos> im not believing it like i said 10:06 < rkos> but it does matter what they say 10:07 < eleitl> only results do matter 10:07 < eleitl> and results cost money 10:07 < rkos> thats where the money comes from and it would be nice if people wouldnt be going crazy about all this science stuff 10:07 < rkos> and the money coming is largely influenced about whats said in the media 10:07 < eleitl> as long as the money comes in I wouldn't worry about why 10:08 < eleitl> politicians worry about credit, so they will say anything that will make them look good 10:08 < eleitl> so, you can ignore that part 10:08 < eleitl> political science is almost that bad, unless you can look behind the scenes 10:08 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:08 < eleitl> no neuroscientist will be caught saying things about personal immortality in public 10:09 < eleitl> whatever their motivations, they're on our team 10:09 < eleitl> oh, got to decamp in about 5 min 10:10 -!- Qfwfq is now known as Qfwfq|zzz 10:10 < rkos> theres little that people feel like they can say in public, but ill see you later cya 10:10 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:10 -!- Guest___ [~marciogm@177-44-58-136.mastercabo.com.br] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:13 -!- aelinoea [~aelinoea@a88-113-45-152.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:13 < eleitl> byes 10:13 < kanzure> seeya 10:21 < fredox> eleitl: on a long enough timeline the survival rate for anyone drops to zero 10:22 < chris_99> what's that from fredox 10:22 < fredox> i think you know 10:22 < chris_99> i just googled it heh, i do now 10:23 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.151.232] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:41 < kanzure> hah http://b.agilob.net/do-not-use-brainwallets-this-is-why/ people are silly 10:41 < kanzure> why would anyone pick a simple passphrase 10:44 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:45 < kanzure> /win 14 10:46 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:48 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-135-204.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:48 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:49 < eudoxia> its like every month some idiot picks a six character password and declares that the era of passwords is over and nobody should use them 10:50 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:54 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:57 < kanzure> you guys are all suckers my password has been aaaaaaaaaaaaa since forever 11:00 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:01 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:02 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:07 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:08 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:14 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:17 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:25 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@117.254.216.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:25 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@117.254.216.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:29 -!- klafka [~klafka@204-16-157-18-static.ipnetworksinc.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:30 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@117.254.219.55] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:31 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:31 -!- Qfwfq|zzz is now known as Qfwfq 11:35 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:37 -!- Guest___ [~marciogm@177-44-58-136.mastercabo.com.br] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:39 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@117.254.218.54] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:40 -!- kuldeepdhaka_ [~kuldeepdh@117.254.218.54] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:41 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@117.254.219.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:43 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:46 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:50 -!- kuldeepdhaka_ [~kuldeepdh@117.254.218.54] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:53 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:56 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:08 <@archels> yeah, I don't know. I was skeptic about the "let's just measure it all" philosophy behind the BRAIN project. But maybe that will actually get us somewhere--tell us something about the dynamics, temporal relationships, correlations, what have you. 12:10 < kanzure> well, it's certainly true that neurons behave differently, and this has to be accounted for somehow, right? 12:11 < kanzure> your pyramidal cells aren't the same in all the places 12:20 <@archels> indeed, the essential bit would be to correlate it with morphology and biomarkers 13:09 < rkos> well surely the hbp/brain projects will help industries and provide good data, but i think that ultimately the brain is itself a model that doesnt contain the whole mind, so its unlikely to solve any philosophical mysteries 13:12 < rkos> i like to think of the dream of being recreated electronically just as being expanded electronically, not really recreated 13:15 < kanzure> sorry, but we don't believe in mind in here, get out 13:15 < kanzure> it's as bad as souls 13:15 < rkos> well im not going to get out because of that 13:15 < rkos> i lay claim to my mind 13:15 < kanzure> well, perhaps not as bad, it's a little bit less awful, but not dramatically 13:15 < kanzure> you can lay claim to your brain but i haven't found evidence of a mind yet 13:15 < eudoxia> omg who cares about philosophy 13:16 < kanzure> eudoxia: what have you been up to? 13:16 < rkos> its information its useful 13:16 < kanzure> it is anti-information 13:16 < eudoxia> if the model quacks like me and codes like me, i wouldn't care 13:16 < eudoxia> (especially cause i would be a descerebrated corpse but w/e) 13:16 < kanzure> if i start quakcing i'm not sure what to think 13:16 < kanzure> *quacking 13:16 < eudoxia> kanzure: not much, some code here and there 13:17 < rkos> you shouldnt just base your attitude on knee jerk reactions based on the social groupings youve ended up in 13:17 < kanzure> they are not knee jerk 13:17 < kanzure> if you consider it you will find that these are the only thoughts that make sense (using evidence to inform yourself) 13:18 < rkos> well have you built up anything to sustain a hate of philosophy? because id be interested in hearing that philosophy of yours... 13:18 < eudoxia> well my philosophy when it comes to WBE is "shut up and simulate" 13:18 < kanzure> eudoxia: simulation is not emulation 13:18 < rkos> its better to live with the stress of senselesness, that doesnt make you unable to still keep using things like always 13:18 < kanzure> rkos: what? 13:19 < kanzure> rkos: neither of your last two messages make sense to me 13:19 < kanzure> rkos: most people are really bad at philosophy, which is why it's mostly-banned in here 13:19 < rkos> well the first one: you have to build somekind of argumentation to reason to yourself why you have such an attitude, and doing this is philosophy 13:20 < eudoxia> i think 'stress of senselessness' meant being a brain in a jar 13:20 < rkos> i dont think you can transform the world without having somekind of skepticism about you 13:20 < eudoxia> but any brain emulation is going to include a simulation of the environment 13:21 < kanzure> rkos: let me guess, do you also believe in consciousness? 13:21 < rkos> stress of senselessness i mean when you question everything to the point that black becomes white, but the world still keeps being how it is 13:21 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@117.254.218.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:21 < rkos> yes 13:22 < rkos> you have to be aware of the abyss around the systems by which you live your life to really appreciate them and understand their limits and what can be done to expand them 13:23 < rkos> i personally think that transcending humanity means transcending other limits than just natural 13:24 < rkos> social, ideological, psychological 13:25 < rkos> you can just think of me as crazy 13:26 < kanzure> uh.. 13:26 < eudoxia> but that doesn't really preclude brain emulation 13:26 < kanzure> eudoxia: i don't think he has a consistent conversation he's replying to. 13:27 < eudoxia> you can work on transcending some psychological thing you have as an emulated brain 13:27 < rkos> but i dont think the whole of ourselves is contained in a brain 13:27 < kanzure> correct, your brain is attached to your body 13:28 < rkos> i think theres more to this world and that theres always going to be more to this world than what we've managed to build explanatory models of 13:28 < eudoxia> people with transected spines still have their old personalities 13:29 < rkos> in a way the brain itself is a model created by many brains 13:29 < eudoxia> :| 13:29 < rkos> which is why i prefer to think of mind because that is what i immediately perceive 13:29 -!- erasmus [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has quit [Quit: Ciao a tutti!] 13:30 < rkos> and i dont immediately perceive a brain 13:30 < kanzure> no, you don't perceive a mind 13:30 < eudoxia> how do you perceive a mind 13:30 < eudoxia> i can't taste my tongue 13:30 < rkos> well a consciousness? 13:30 < kanzure> ugh 13:30 < rkos> consciousness/mind/soul all the same! 13:33 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@117.254.221.160] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:36 -!- fredox [~chatzilla@c27-253-22-47.brodm4.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:39 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@117.254.221.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:16 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-135-204.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47 -!- augur [~augur@129-2-129-33.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:58 -!- augur [~augur@129-2-129-33.wireless.umd.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:59 -!- Guest__ [~marciogm@177-44-58-136.mastercabo.com.br] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:01 -!- augur [~augur@129-2-129-33.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:24 -!- Guest__ [~marciogm@177-44-58-136.mastercabo.com.br] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:39 -!- augur [~augur@pool-71-191-99-118.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:54 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35 -!- respondt [~alassad@c-76-23-254-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:35 < kanzure> llvm documentation isn't too bad 16:35 < ParahSailin> what you doing with llvm 16:36 < kanzure> nothing yet, i just have this feeling that i'm going to end up writing some stupid code generator in the next year (reasons unknown) and i'd hate to manually repeat half of llvm or something 16:38 < ParahSailin> youre making a compiler? 16:38 < kanzure> well, hopefully not 16:39 < kanzure> but i did write that shitty preprocessor for those pokemon games.. 16:39 < kanzure> which i completely regret.. 16:40 < kanzure> i found out yesterday that someone modified the preprocessor to use eval() in python for a handful of files 16:42 < kanzure> also for reverse engineering reasons in general 16:43 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:56 -!- klafka [~klafka@204-16-157-18-static.ipnetworksinc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:57 -!- klafka [~klafka@204-16-157-18-static.ipnetworksinc.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:01 -!- klafka [~klafka@204-16-157-18-static.ipnetworksinc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:21 -!- foucist [~foobala@c-50-178-193-111.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:21 < foucist> kanzure: or anyone else: i recently saw a link about converting something like a speaker into something like ECG, i can't remember what it was, anyone else saw that? 17:22 < foucist> it was some simple/cheap way of converting something that people typically already have 17:23 < kanzure> there was something about a speaker being used to control the axis positioning of a 3d printer, does that count 17:24 < foucist> nope :P 17:24 < foucist> it was some sort of cheap/easy hack to get a biofeedback thing 17:45 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:b240:8200:48b1:a2e:ca44:7995] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:45 < foucist> kanzure: http://www.nanoengineer-1.net/ (Can't contact the database server: Unknown database 'nanoengi_mw' (localhost)) 17:47 < kanzure> i have a database backup somewhere. i was able to retrieve backups was i never administering that site. 17:47 < kanzure> http://blog.cmpxchg8b.com/2012/09/fun-with-constrained-programming.html "RAR files can contain bytecode for a simple x86-like virtual machine called the RarVM. This is designed to provide filters (preprocessors) to perform some reversible transformation on input data to increase redundancy, and thus improve compression." 17:47 < kanzure> "simple x86-like" 17:48 < kanzure> https://github.com/taviso/rarvmtools 17:50 < ParahSailin> wow, rar files are turing complete? 17:50 < foucist> neat 17:56 < kanzure> now let's do llvm things to compile things to rarvm 17:58 < entelechios> i been helping someone procure polaritonics equipment for hemoencephalography 17:58 < entelechios> it was new to me until he started asking questions 17:58 < entelechios> now that's a dope system 17:58 < entelechios> oh hell thanks for reminding me about llvm/clang kanzure 17:58 < entelechios> i was trying to compile chromium on debian cid and libc was too new 17:59 < entelechios> so i figured i got work to do 17:59 < entelechios> but now my work i think could go for devtools 17:59 < entelechios> on chromium 17:59 -!- reentry [~jwm@c-50-178-193-111.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:01 < kanzure> i have spent an unfortunately large amount of time compiling webkit 18:01 < kanzure> haven't done chromium yet but a large chunk of the build system is the same (or it was, until recently) 18:04 < reentry> its called Blink now 18:04 < reentry> like the blink tag :) 18:04 < kanzure> chromium is still called chromium 18:04 < reentry> I mean the engine in it 18:05 < reentry> I'm compiling the new version of chromium right now 18:05 < reentry> heh 18:05 < reentry> crap failed 18:05 < kanzure> really? you should meet entelechios 18:06 < reentry> gupnp-dlna-gst failed it heh 18:10 < foucist> what? chromium has upnp? 18:11 < ParahSailin> you have a headless webkit yet? 18:13 < foucist> ah for headless 18:13 < foucist> nm 18:13 < kanzure> eh, depends on how you define headless 18:14 < ParahSailin> this is what you were hacking webkit on? 18:18 < kanzure> a number of things 18:18 < kanzure> combining the javascript event loop with the event loop in v8 (node) 18:18 < kanzure> got javascript variables sharing references with python variables 18:18 < kanzure> so python callbacks in webkit javascript contexts and javascript callbacks (like from the page) in python 18:19 < kanzure> these are not all working, just what i was working on 18:21 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:21 < foucist> kanzure: so bypassing internal v8 to hook it to node's v8 ? 18:22 < entelechios> reentry: what OS 18:22 < entelechios> i havent built it on anything other than linux 18:22 < reentry> gentoo 18:22 < entelechios> just emerging it then? 18:22 < reentry> yeah 18:22 < entelechios> which build 18:22 < reentry> just rebuilding to the new one 18:22 < reentry> just came out 18:22 < entelechios> the stable build? 18:22 < reentry> it built on one machine not the other 18:22 < reentry> nah never stable 18:22 < entelechios> have fun building the lkgr hahaha 18:23 < entelechios> try #chromium tho or #chromium-help or whatever i forget 18:23 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23 < reentry> ahh I am fixing it 18:23 < reentry> I fixed it on my other machine I just forget how 18:23 < entelechios> if i were you just as an enduser and not a dev i'd simply just score 31.0.1650.48 18:23 < entelechios> via svn 18:23 < entelechios> and compile that 18:24 < entelechios> http://googlechromereleases.blogspot.com/2013/11/stable-channel-update.html 18:24 < reentry> hehe 18:24 < reentry> dude I run 31 already 18:24 < reentry> trying for 32 18:24 < kanzure> foucist: yes. there's no good webkit bindings for node. 18:24 < reentry> its almost built on my htpc 18:24 < kanzure> foucist: webkit is javascriptcore, and used to have v8 support. but anyway, same is true of blink. 18:24 < kanzure> foucist: they have different event loops, and you can't refer to a javascript object outside of the different "javascript contexts" 18:25 < kanzure> but if they are both v8 i don't see why not just use both 18:25 < kanzure> *use the same one in both places 18:25 < foucist> btw, speaking of headless webkit/upnp-dlna.. what would hte client be? another chromium instance on a different machine? 18:25 < kanzure> the client would be some pile of javascript or python 18:25 < kanzure> https://gist.github.com/kanzure/6581415 18:25 < foucist> well, i'm referring to the upnp-dlna bit specifically ? 18:26 < kanzure> there's one example where i have python able to interrogate js variables 18:26 < foucist> honestly just found out about upnp/dlna pretty recently heh 18:26 < reentry> well they removed gps support 18:26 < reentry> maybe it is built in 18:26 < reentry> probably the webrtc code pulls in the upnp bindings 18:38 -!- _sol_ [~Sol@c-174-57-58-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:40 < reentry> I had to install one older version of gupnp-dlna 18:40 < reentry> to install the newer version 18:40 < reentry> hah 18:50 -!- erasmus [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:06 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:08 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@2001:67c:2190:c0de:40d0:aabe:bde2:aa7f] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:13 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:22 -!- Adifex [~Adifex@rrcs-50-84-151-134.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:42 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:50 -!- augur is now known as not_ion 19:51 -!- erasmus [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has quit [Quit: -=DUNE=-] 19:51 -!- n_bentha [~GuanYu@184.75.214.146] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:55 -!- not_ion is now known as augur 20:08 -!- erasmus [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:14 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:21 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:22 -!- klafka_ [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:26 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:23 -!- Adifex [~Adifex@rrcs-50-84-151-134.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Adifex] 21:47 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:b240:8200:48b1:a2e:ca44:7995] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:01 -!- klafka_ [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:02 -!- pads [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:03 -!- pads is now known as Guest69347 22:05 -!- joehot [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:06 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:16 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:28 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: HEx2, Qfwfq, ParahSai1in 22:32 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:32 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:41 -!- respondt [~alassad@c-76-23-254-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 22:51 -!- n_bentha [~GuanYu@184.75.214.146] has quit [Quit: до свидания] 23:16 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:43 -!- augur_ [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:46 -!- augur [~augur@pool-71-191-99-118.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:47 -!- erasmus [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has quit [Quit: Ciao a tutti!] --- Log closed Thu Nov 14 00:00:24 2013