--- Log opened Sat Apr 12 00:00:37 2014 00:05 -!- sheena [~home@d108-180-136-243.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10 -!- sheena [~home@d108-180-136-243.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:11 -!- Adifex|out is now known as Adifex 00:14 < kanzure> straight from the conspiracy feed in my head: "The heir to the Dupont Chemical Company fortune was just convicted of raping his 3 year old daughter. The judge stated, "He wouldn't be safe in the prison systems general population". So the judge sentenced him to 20 years of House Arrest. The rich bastard has to spend the next twenty years in his $40 million mansion." 00:14 < kanzure> why would the dupont chemical co. heir have a mansion worth only $40M? 00:14 < kanzure> that math doesn't add up 00:15 -!- sheena [~home@d108-180-136-243.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:19 < jrayhawk> fortunes get split up amongst offspring and misspent 00:23 < jrayhawk> former english nobility is sorta weird in that the families try to hold onto manors and castles and stuff long after it stops making financial sense to do so because they don't want to be the generation that lost the family legacy. 00:23 < jrayhawk> Big properties are moneypits. 00:23 < jrayhawk> Classism is a lot bigger over there, I suppose. 00:24 < kanzure> dupontshire 00:25 < jrayhawk> And I suppose there's a much deeper history. 00:25 < kanzure> weren't dupont and dow scheduled to be replaced by microfluidic chips 10 years ago? 00:25 < jrayhawk> "replaced"? 00:26 < kanzure> reason why they were centralized in the first place was because they had all the chemists 00:26 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DuPont 00:26 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dow_Chemical_Company 00:26 < jrayhawk> they have all the research bucks, so they get all the cool stuff, so they get all the research bucks 00:27 < kanzure> oh weird, dupont was doing just military gunpowder for a long while 00:28 < jrayhawk> unless your microfluidic systems of logic gates are sophisticated enough to replace the researchers themselves, i don't think you'll be skipping past this feedback cycle anytime soon 00:29 < kanzure> well, something something regulatory capture of basic research chemicals 00:30 < kanzure> mumble mumble something about sigma aldrich 00:31 < kanzure> "100,000 chemical products (46,000 manufactured)" 00:31 < kanzure> "Approximately one million individual customers worldwide; 88,000 accounts" 00:32 -!- sheena [~home@d108-180-136-243.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:35 < kanzure> "ATP (adenosine-τ-triphosphate) proved to be the turning point in the company's evolution. Between projects, Dan Broida allowed a friend, Lou Berger, to occupy some of his laboratory space. Berger was completing his Master's Degree in Biochemistry, isolating and purifying ATP in the laboratory of the famous Nobel Prize winners, Dr. Carl and Dr. Gerty Cori. Based on the Cori findings, he was convinced that ATP would soon become a very ... 00:35 < kanzure> ... important product in the biochemical research scene. - See more at: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/life-science/sigma-life-science/sigma-history.html#sthash.aAyptX8J.dpuf" 00:35 < kanzure> ack stupid js 00:35 < kanzure> "Berger was absolutely right, as ATP proved to have enormous market value. He began to teach the production chemists at Sigma Chemical Company how to isolate and purify ATP. As soon as its availability was known, research groups the world over wanted to purchase 'research quality' ATP for their own studies. And they did. Before long, the research community came to respect Sigma and turn to it for research chemical needs." 00:37 -!- sheena [~home@d108-180-136-243.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:37 < kanzure> "Echoing this success in the market, 1964 saw Sigma London formed to strengthen efforts in the United Kingdom. Just two years later, as sales increased throughout Europe, the German chemical giant, Boehringer Mannheim, decided to terminate its supplier relationship with Sigma. With this valuable supply line cut, Sigma was quickly forced to produce many of its starting materials." 00:38 < kanzure> i just don't see any particular strategy here that leads to manufacturing 100,000 research chemicals 00:38 -!- sheena [~home@d108-180-136-243.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:45 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:51 < kanzure> fisher scientific was just a marketing department? http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=dhBZAAAAIBAJ&sjid=oW0DAAAAIBAJ&dq=fisher%20scientific%20pittsburgh&pg=6863%2C2249255 00:54 < kanzure> where did these huge catalogs come from 00:54 < kanzure> ParahSailin: they can't all be marketing departments. someone's manufacturing random-wacky dextro-hydro-oxalyse-6,7 somewhere, right? 02:04 -!- chido [chidori@pasky.or.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:04 -!- chido [chidori@pasky.or.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 02:04 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 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##hplusroadmap 06:27 -!- trotsky [~ruthie@c-98-225-143-81.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:28 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@c-98-225-143-81.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:30 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@179.126.91.3] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:32 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@c-98-225-143-81.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:18 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@179.126.91.3] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:35 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@c-98-225-143-81.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:40 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@c-98-225-143-81.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:58 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:58 -!- Guest35794 [~tpi@c-107-4-148-59.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:00 < kanzure> you guys are boring 08:01 < FourFire> kanzure, sure, I'm not exactly aiming to entertain 08:02 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@179.126.91.3] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:02 -!- Baube [~Baube@65.95.14.15] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:08 < pasky_> boring means coding 08:10 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-53-68-145.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:10 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-53-68-145.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 08:10 < kanzure> if you were coding then i would hear a constant stream of "shit!" and "fucking idiots!" 08:11 < kanzure> which, i do, but that's only because *i'm* coding 08:12 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@c-98-225-143-81.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:13 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-53-68-145.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:13 < dingo> ha 08:13 < eudoxia> also "the whole stack is broken" and "you people are the reason we aren't all using lisp" 08:13 < dingo> double-ha 08:14 < dingo> i had the high honors of fixing one of kanzure's bugs the other week :D 08:14 < eudoxia> i got skdb-get.py to work again, high five 08:14 < dingo> i don't mind a bug from kanzure, he's a good one 08:15 < dingo> its the bugs that come from ppl tripping over ascii characters for hours resulting in running code 08:20 < kanzure> gasp what was the bug? 08:35 < kanzure> central japan railway company http://english.jr-central.co.jp/ 08:36 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@179.126.91.3] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:45 < dingo> a race condtion underneath pool.apply_async(upload, args, upload_details) 08:45 < dingo> two subprocs mkdir then chdir, they needed a shared lock "I'm busy looking for, and if not found, create the folder", then release, the other one then acquires, looks, finds, no problem. 08:46 < dingo> also pool.apply_async() does not wait for success -- even if there was a failure, the entire "process" was marked "success" even if it failed 08:48 < dingo> theres a nice PS3 game, 'railfan' thats just HD video of japan's railway system, bit of a zen game, that one 08:49 < kanzure> how do you beat it? 08:50 < dingo> you make your checkpoints on the desginated time, lol 08:50 < dingo> you have to break early, stop within the bounds of the platform 08:50 < dingo> brake 08:50 < dingo> breaks are good to, i'm departing for the beach 08:50 < dingo> bit of eye strain from too much computer time! 08:51 < kanzure> seeya 08:51 < eudoxia> bai 08:53 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-53-68-145.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:00 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@c-98-225-143-81.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:01 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@c-98-225-143-81.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:06 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@c-98-225-143-81.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:07 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@c-98-225-143-81.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:08 -!- snuffeluffegus [~John@homie-vserver314.dreamhost.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:08 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@c-98-225-143-81.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:08 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@c-98-225-143-81.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:13 -!- proty [~hrouhan@24.60.79.55] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:13 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@c-98-225-143-81.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:20 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@dhcp-130-58-195-156.swarthmore.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:23 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@dhcp-130-58-195-156.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:23 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@dhcp-130-58-195-156.swarthmore.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:23 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@dhcp-130-58-195-156.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30 < cluckj> just finished richard powers' Orfeo 09:30 < cluckj> it's about a biohacking musical composer 09:31 < cluckj> pretty good read if you like contemporary sciencey fiction 09:32 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@dhcp-130-58-195-156.swarthmore.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:33 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@dhcp-130-58-195-156.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:34 < kanzure> cluckj: elaborate? 09:36 < cluckj> :P 09:36 < cluckj> I'm not sure I can without spoilers 09:36 < cluckj> it parallels the steve kurtz debacle for a while, but with some divergence in what happens afterwards 09:38 < kanzure> he trades some samples by mail, his wife dies, he gets busted same day, eight years of eyerolling legal crap? 09:38 < cluckj> lol 09:39 < cluckj> replace wife with dog, no mailing of samples, and then spoiler alert 09:42 < cluckj> I liked the narrative structure, it was a nice touch that reminded me of DNA replication in a 5' --> 3' and 3' --> 5' way 09:45 < kanzure> cluckj: have you read "History of Boehringer Mannheim"? and was it worthwhile. 09:46 < cluckj> no, have you? 09:46 < kanzure> nope just looking around for the source of the idea of "giant conglomerate chemical company" 09:47 < cluckj> http://www.amazon.com/Selling-Science-History-Boehringer-Mannheim/dp/B000F85282 09:47 < cluckj> that one? 09:47 < cluckj> oh 09:47 < kanzure> looks like it's a translation of "Wissenschaft für den Markt : die Geschichte des forschenden Unternehmens Boehringer Mannheim" which is why amazon doesn't know much about it 09:47 < kanzure> anyway, as far as i can tell, none of the research chemical companies started off wanting to make 100,000 different obscure/esoteric chemicals 09:48 < kanzure> and their wikipedia articles conveniently exclude that jump. e.g. "well they did gun powder for 80 years, and oh by the way they now deal in thousands of chemicals that they've never heard of" 09:48 < cluckj> sheldon krimsky has some readable histories of industrial biotech 09:49 < cluckj> I know there is a book or article about the history of Dow chemical somewhere 09:49 < kanzure> i'm not sure if i am looking for dow or not, it's hard for me to tell 09:49 < kanzure> for example, if fisher doesn't actually manufacture the majority of their products, then where do they come from? 09:50 < kanzure> i assume that some of the materials start from dow, but it can't be all of them? 09:50 < kanzure> or roche for that matter 09:50 < cluckj> iirc dow and dupont got into the business of making a bajillion chemicals because they were into mining of raw materials 09:51 < cluckj> or was it dow and 3M 09:52 < cluckj> yes, dow and 3m got their start mining raw materials and processing them 09:52 < kanzure> "Alfred R. Bader, an Austrian immigrant and chemistry graduate student at Harvard University, entertained the idea of starting a company to sell research chemicals in 1949. Acting on the premise that chemists needed a wider array of research chemicals and better service, Bader and attorney Jack Eisendrath founded Aldrich Chemical Company in Milwaukee, WI, in 1951." 09:52 < kanzure> "Aldrich offered 1-Methyl-3-nitro-1-nitrosoguanidine (MNNG) as it first product, widely used as a methylating reagent. Other products offered in the early '50s include 3-hydroxypyridine, which later became one of Aldrich's best-selling products; ethyl diazoacetate; tetranitomethane; and ethanedithiol. From 1951 to 1954, Bader developed important collaborations through visits to chemical producers in Europe and the UK. The remainder of the ... 09:52 < kanzure> ... 1950s was characterized by rapid growth in sales and in the number of products offered." 09:53 < kanzure> "Aldrich's Rare Chemical Library (RCL) grew out of the collecting and salvaging of valuable research samples of retiring or deceased academic researchers and from other sources. Large-scale contributions of samples to the library have come from such noteworthy chemists as Henry Gilman, George Wittig, Robert Woodward, and Louis and Mary Fieser. RCL has led to the discovery and commercialization by others of some valuable chemical commodities, ... 09:53 < kanzure> ... e.g., Roundup® (Monsanto Co.), based on lead compounds obtained from the RCL." 09:53 < cluckj> hah 09:54 < cluckj> when I was working in the chemistry stockroom I remember having to clear out a dead scientists' lab, and the only thing we were supposed to save was his chemical library of mercaptans 09:55 < kanzure> one of the chemistry stockrooms i used was basically a weirdo sigma/fisher subsidy room.. it was a very strange thing. i didn't investigate because i was busy doing other htings. 09:55 < kanzure> the stock wasn't owned by the school, but rather you could purchase at the door 09:55 < cluckj> oh weird 09:55 < kanzure> not how it worked at your place? 09:56 < cluckj> we had to buy everything, then sell it to the researchers 09:56 < cluckj> "sell" 09:56 < kanzure> so the stockroom had its own budget and balance sheet? 09:56 < cluckj> yeah 09:57 < cluckj> that was a great job...my boss was a 70 year old jamaican dude who always kept nice booze in the dry ice freezer 09:59 -!- fireprfHydra [~fireprfHy@pool-173-70-216-225.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:00 < kanzure> "Today, Sigma-Aldrich has a broad offering of more than 147,000 chemical products (48,000 of which the Company manufactures) and 40,000 equipment items. We supply products to customers in over 150 countries around the world through state-of-the-art distribution centers." 10:00 < kanzure> clearly this is a long tail inventory model.. there's no way that there's even demand across all research chemicals. 10:00 < cluckj> yeah 10:01 < kanzure> but if there's no demand for a certain compound, then why would they maintain the equipment to manufacture it, or why would they have inventory? 10:01 < cluckj> if you have all those chemicals, you have all the synthesis pathways, and probably all the patents 10:02 < kanzure> and i bet they have some internal metrics or process for deciding whether or not there's enough demand/money to bother with a certain product. e.g. some cutoff point. 10:02 < cluckj> that patent thing is especially true for the industrial process to make the chemical 10:02 < kanzure> so maybe they just teardown their equipment when they don't need to synthesize more? 10:03 < kanzure> or do you think they have industrial production at all times and they just throw away their inventory? 10:03 < cluckj> a lot of the synthesis methods are similar, so they can be run on the same equipment 10:03 < kanzure> so the really-low-demand portion of their portfolio is probably custom synthesis on typical glassware and a few technicians? 10:03 < cluckj> those companies have a lot of easily modifiable small production plants 10:04 < cluckj> no, it's on the small-run pilot plants 10:04 < kanzure> huh, so then they have to calculate the cost of their tiny factories. hrm. 10:04 < cluckj> I wouldn't be surprised if they did a lot of benchtop synthesis for really low-demand compounds 10:04 < kanzure> and the thick part of the tail subsidizes the thin horizon 10:04 < cluckj> yeah 10:05 < cluckj> if a compound suddenly becomes popular, they can customize a pilot plant to make a bunch of it 10:07 < cluckj> I saw one at betz dearborn when I was in high school, they are pretty cool 10:15 < ParahSailin> why isnt one of "us" making peptone and yeast extract 10:15 < kanzure> i'm pondering why there isn't a company like transcriptic in the chemistry or even biology products industry (like uh, protein production) 10:16 < ParahSailin> genscript 10:16 < ParahSailin> though, they dont have as many robots as they could 10:16 < ParahSailin> but labor arbitrage is always a good business model 10:18 < kanzure> api for custom protein/antibody production? 10:18 < kanzure> maybe the model should be more like octopart 10:19 < kanzure> interesting, octopart is advertizing circuitlab on their landing page now 10:22 < ParahSailin> peptone and yeast extract seem like things that every lab could have an appliance to make 10:23 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@162-79-15.connect.netcom.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:23 < ParahSailin> every lab has its own milliQ so they dont have to buy bottled water 10:24 < cluckj> the millipore'd water is a recent thing 10:24 < ParahSailin> insert pork stomach, hcl, and malk, receive peptone 10:24 < cluckj> lol 10:24 < ParahSailin> every chinese household has a soybean juice maker 10:25 < cluckj> 1) hack it into existence 10:25 < cluckj> 2) ??? 10:25 < cluckj> 3) profit 10:25 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:25 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@c-98-225-143-81.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:25 < ParahSailin> for bonus, the peptone maker could make casitone and vegetable peptone etc for boutique media 10:27 < cluckj> some dudes I met at genspace this week made a pipette robot and a briefcase centrifuge/hot plate/peltier cooler 10:28 < kanzure> briefcase ultracentrifuge? 10:28 < cluckj> yes 10:29 < cluckj> it had all those components in the case with arduino control 10:29 < kanzure> i wonder if ultracentrifugation can be achieved by sonication 10:29 < ParahSailin> er what? 10:30 < kanzure> well, i'm thinking the briefcase would fly out the window 10:30 < kanzure> considering how literally all of the ultracentrifuges i've worked with were larger than laundry machines to keep them from murdering everyone in the lab 10:30 < cluckj> sonication can destroy a lot of substances 10:31 < ParahSailin> theres no substitute for g force when thats what you need 10:32 < cluckj> ^ 10:37 < kanzure> i wonder if there's even enough room on a microfluidic chip to do a generic "synthesize anything" factory 10:37 < kanzure> wasn't one of the holy grails of microfluidics to replace the stockroom with just a chip that has enough equipment to produce whatever you need? 10:37 < kanzure> (or am i thinking of the holy grails of nanotech) 10:38 < kanzure> hehe https://www.transcriptic.com/learn-more/ "Our robots work in sterile, enclosed and regulated environments called workcells. Workcells and individual devices are equipped with real-time monitoring of parameters like humidity, temperature, and atmospheric composition. Our online dashboard tracks this data, and the current state and progress of your samples." 10:40 < kanzure> i guess this is their workcell: https://www.transcriptic.com/res/about/wc-1.jpg 10:47 < cluckj> lol 10:47 < cluckj> macrofluidics, apparently 10:51 -!- DrSilverstein [~tpi@c-107-4-148-59.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:13 < kanzure> 11:13:08 up 520 days, 11:38, 5 users, load average: 1.75, 1.92, 1.95 11:15 -!- ianmathwiz7 [~chatzilla@67.51.113.178] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:15 -!- ianmathwiz7 [~chatzilla@67.51.113.178] has quit [Client Quit] 11:17 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:22 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:24 -!- Vutral_ [~ss@31.7.56.132] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:26 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:26 -!- snuffeluffegus [~John@homie-vserver314.dreamhost.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:27 -!- proty [~hrouhan@24.60.79.55] has quit [Quit: quit] 11:27 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:28 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:29 -!- Vutral_ [~ss@31.7.56.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:34 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:39 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:39 -!- fireprfHydra [~fireprfHy@pool-173-70-216-225.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:40 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:46 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:46 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:50 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:53 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:58 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:58 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:00 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:07 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:10 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:19 -!- proty [~asakharov@24.60.79.55] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:00 -!- genehacker [~AndChat33@8-92.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:01 -!- genehacker [~AndChat33@8-92.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:05 < kanzure> "how to organize crime" http://www.aeaweb.org/annual_mtg_papers/2007/0107_1300_1204.pdf 13:06 < kanzure> "Note that, in anarchy, cooperation is harder to sustain than in the previous model because the incentive to deviate increases" 13:12 < kanzure> "mathematical terrorism" https://dspace.library.cornell.edu/bitstream/1813/14741/1/Gutfraind,%20Alexander.pdf 13:13 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:15 -!- genehacker [~AndChat33@8-92.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:15 -!- AndChat|336756 [~AndChat33@8-92.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:16 -!- AndChat-336756 [~AndChat33@8-92.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:19 -!- genehacker [~AndChat33@8-92.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:20 -!- AndChat|336756 [~AndChat33@8-92.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:21 -!- AndChat-336756 [~AndChat33@8-92.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:23 < kanzure> genehacker moved with campbell? 13:24 < kanzure> yashgaroth: where does roche's/fisher's large catalog of random crap actually come from? 13:24 < yashgaroth> like source country or company? 13:25 < kanzure> company.. or uh. well, none of them started off saying "gee, you know what would be cool, let's make 400,000 chemicals that nobody has ever heard of" 13:28 -!- gene_hacker_prim [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:28 -!- gene_hacker_prim is now known as gene_hacker 13:28 < yashgaroth> I imagine the more obscure ones are synthesized to order 13:28 < kanzure> gene_hacker: visiting campbell? 13:34 -!- Baube [~Baube@65.95.14.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:40 < ParahSailin> sigma is a public company, i imagine one might learn something from their annual reports 13:41 < kanzure> sure 13:41 < kanzure> as far as i can tell, the major chemical manufacturers have been taken over by the same type of suits that took over big pharma and big bio 13:42 < yashgaroth> chemicals/equipment/consumables 13:43 -!- Adi|out is now known as Adifex 14:00 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@c-98-225-143-81.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:09 < gene_hacker> huh? 14:09 < kanzure> gene_hacker: you seem to be in oregon 14:09 < gene_hacker> yes, I live there now 14:09 < kanzure> or maybe i forgot you moved.. 14:09 < kanzure> i am not good at this 14:10 < gene_hacker> bkero is in oregon right? 14:10 < kanzure> yep, but also jrayhawk and nmz787 14:10 < kanzure> nmz787 is your doppleganger and you should meet him 14:10 < gene_hacker> really 14:10 < kanzure> yeah 14:11 < jrayhawk> oregonstate is sorta far away, but i guess nmz787 drives around a lot 14:12 -!- cpopell [~cpopell@pool-71-255-241-91.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:14 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@dhcp-130-58-195-156.swarthmore.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:16 -!- trotsky [~ruthie@dhcp-130-58-195-156.swarthmore.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:20 -!- ruthie [~ruthie@dhcp-130-58-195-156.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:26 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:28 -!- trotsky [~ruthie@dhcp-130-58-195-156.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Quit: DANG] 14:30 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:31 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:49 -!- xentrac [~kragen@panacea.canonical.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:49 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@158-117-15.connect.netcom.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:50 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:10 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:13 -!- Lemminkainen [uid2346@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vcfqpxtlzicttgav] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:17 < Lemminkainen> paperbot http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v20/n1/full/nm.3447.html 15:17 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnm.3447 15:18 < Lemminkainen> paperbot http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140408/ncomms4563/full/ncomms4563.html 15:18 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fncomms4563 15:23 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:26 < kanzure> i spy with my little eye, delinquentme and nickpinkston https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7579310 15:26 < nmz787> i've been driving less lately 15:26 < kanzure> "a world of hardware startups" http://upverter.com/hardware-startups/ 15:26 < nmz787> anyone going to defcon? 15:26 < kanzure> nmz787: gene_hacker is worth meeting 15:27 < nmz787> will be driving to sf next month 15:27 < kanzure> nmz787: i originally met him at some stupid orientation seminar at ut austin when he was behind me in line talking about reprap and explosives in 2008 15:27 < nmz787> is his name gene or does he like DNA? 15:27 < kanzure> charlie 15:28 < nmz787> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Well%20spank%20my%20ass%20and%20call%20me%20Charlie! 15:28 < nmz787> sorry i was reminded of south park 15:29 < Lemminkainen> that's all consumer tech 15:29 < kanzure> look on the other column 15:29 < nmz787> so i met some product manager from autodesk last week 15:29 < nmz787> and asked him to try microns or nanometers, by entering dimensions of 0.00001 mm 15:29 < Lemminkainen> "robotics" and "battery tech" are all there also focused on consumer tech 15:29 < nmz787> and it seemed to fail, but really it seemed like a zoom problem 15:30 < Lemminkainen> show me a microfluidics rig rapid fabrication startup or something, let's have some imagination 15:30 < nmz787> he didn't know if internally it was storing all the 000s or if the length unit was a multiplier or just a flag 15:30 < nmz787> Lemminkainen: that's what i'm trying to do 15:30 < kanzure> Lemminkainen: all of the microfluidics "startups" are really boring "here's a professor who convinced some VCs to give him money, but that was in 2003 and now fluidigym is boring" 15:31 < Lemminkainen> tell me more nmz787 15:31 < Lemminkainen> I have use for such things 15:31 < kanzure> Lemminkainen: http://diyhpl.us/laser_etcher/laser_etcher/ 15:31 < nmz787> so now that i've been earning some income, I have some money but no time to put into the work... before I was stalled due to lack of funds 15:31 < nmz787> Lemminkainen: that is quite old 15:32 < Lemminkainen> hm, I'd need valves a la Quake's rigs 15:32 < nmz787> Lemminkainen: the plan now is to use machine vision for motor control feedback, using a microscope and reticle, and bluray laser optics to do SteroLithography 15:32 < nmz787> so even if the screw leads are shitty, the grid reticle video tells you to speed up or slow down 15:33 < Lemminkainen> chosen a machine vision library yet? 15:33 < nmz787> i've had a good deal of experience with opencv 15:33 < Lemminkainen> http://simplecv.org/ 15:34 < kanzure> Lemminkainen: here's another old thing http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/fbi-diybio-dna-v1.pdf 15:34 < nmz787> yeah, thinking of speed though, i'd probably want to start with c based code 15:34 < kanzure> Lemminkainen: which doesn't follow nmz787's previous messages 15:34 < kanzure> i mean, his statements here are more timely 15:35 < nmz787> heh that plot (minus synthesis data) was shown like 5 or 6 times at the genomics conf last tuesday 15:35 < nmz787> they kept joking about it 15:35 < nmz787> oh and it had moores law on it 15:35 < kanzure> yeah it'd be nice to get that graph killed for good 15:36 < nmz787> so i guess it was slightly different, but basically the same 15:36 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:36 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:36 < nmz787> Lemminkainen: my only concern now is the depth of field on the bluray optics out of box 15:36 < nmz787> I am bad at optics calculations 15:36 < nmz787> I have been thinking maybe i need to do a physics phd :P 15:36 < Lemminkainen> you seen the newer graphs that plot sequencing, oligo synth, and peptide synth as all following similar curves at 3 year respective lags? 15:37 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:37 < nmz787> nah 15:37 < kanzure> xentrac: so you think that the debugging problems are not a showstopper? 15:38 < kanzure> xentrac: figured it shouldn't be a private conversation 15:38 < kanzure> xentrac: since nmz787 is the one doing the work 15:38 < nmz787> ? 15:38 < kanzure> what are you asking? 15:38 < nmz787> what am i doing? 15:39 < kanzure> microfluidics 15:39 < nmz787> oh 15:39 < nmz787> well even more recently I've been thinking of looking to see if any cheaper contractors are out there to just send cad files and get microstructured silicone in the mail 15:40 < nmz787> just since i have less time but income :/ 15:40 < kanzure> that stanford fab does $400/mask 15:40 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:43 < nmz787> "competitive" http://www.cidraprecisionservices.com/sales-representatives-pricing-delivery.html 15:43 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:43 < nmz787> plus they can do optical coatings 15:44 < nmz787> actually I need to go and talk to the fib guy locally who can do fast patterning 15:45 < nmz787> well 15:45 < nmz787> maybe not now 15:45 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:45 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has quit [Changing host] 15:45 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:49 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:59 < xentrac> kanzure: I think debugging problems are profoundly and broadly important 16:01 < kanzure> i could imagine wasting a year or three on, like, microvalve problems 16:02 < xentrac> yup 16:02 < xentrac> I could too 16:02 < xentrac> one of the nice things about fluidics is that you can reduce your need for valves, but then you're debugging fluidic gates instead 16:10 < nmz787> yeah, another reason for looking into shops 16:11 < nmz787> i've been working on getting grant writing support for an NSF SBIR grant, paid for by the state Small Biz Admin 16:12 < nmz787> 15 pg body, 50 pg appendix was one rough estimate i got 16:13 -!- proty [~asakharov@24.60.79.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:13 < nmz787> unfortunately the grant support organization that's state funded has cleantech as their motto, and biofuel synbio isn't seem to be as direct 16:15 < kanzure> if your goal is dna, then i still think that microfluidics is the wrong approach 16:15 < nmz787> anything else wouldn't qualify for SBIR 16:15 < kanzure> if your goal is microfluidics, then don't pitch biofuel or bio-almost-anything, there's other compounds to pick 16:15 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15 < nmz787> it is specific for high potential for being disruptive 16:16 < nmz787> high-risk, high potential payoff 16:16 < Lemminkainen> precise conjugation of organic chemicals is disruptive enough 16:16 < kanzure> just because nobody has done it doesn't mean you can arbitrarily increase the number of variables that can break... engineering works by constraining the set of things that can go wrong. 16:16 < Lemminkainen> DNA is long and sticky and is going to give you massive aggregation headaches 16:17 < Lemminkainen> set your first bar lower, smash it, then qualify for additional SBIR grants 16:17 < nmz787> Lemminkainen: there comes nanofluidics 16:17 < kanzure> dna is a pretty long reaction, so it's not just microfluidics but also dna reaction chemistry 16:17 < nmz787> where you physically constrain the molecule 16:17 < nmz787> that also shields already written dna from active chemistry 16:17 < nmz787> so your risk of depurinating side chains goes way down 16:18 < Lemminkainen> so you're compounding your project risk by trying to translate homebrew microfluidics into sterically hindered nanofluidics? 16:19 < nmz787> no 16:19 < nmz787> that is why i know several local FIB shops 16:20 < nmz787> ttyl 16:20 < kanzure> :/ 16:20 < kanzure> Lemminkainen: so what would be the lowest bar you can think of 16:21 < nmz787> gotta take my girl shopping 16:21 < nmz787> :P 16:21 < nmz787> I don't /want/ to go 16:21 < kanzure> say hi when you run into steve (he is also shopping) 16:21 < nmz787> heh heh 16:21 < Lemminkainen> prove that you can precisely gate the flow of a few different organic chemicals into different concentrations in an end result 16:21 < Lemminkainen> that would be step 1 16:21 < Lemminkainen> no reactions, just prove your shit can mix stuff precisely 16:21 < nmz787> ok so dyes 16:22 < Lemminkainen> or redox 16:22 < nmz787> and a spectrometer on the mixing site? 16:22 < nmz787> or just microscope video 16:22 < Lemminkainen> redox, just measure pH 16:22 < nmz787> ahh, ok, won't i then need a microprobe? 16:22 < nmz787> or just process enough volume and take the average? 16:22 < nmz787> assume its averaged 16:23 < Lemminkainen> sure, that could work 16:23 < nmz787> Lemminkainen: please continue, I will check back later... with so much in my head its hard to bring it to words sometimes 16:23 < Lemminkainen> take multiple samples over a few days and prove it 16:24 < Lemminkainen> I don't really have more to go on at the moment, I'm just trying to reduce the engineering complexity of your project as it comes 16:24 < nmz787> my last project was fixing the spincoater (all done) 16:24 < kanzure> i wouldn't even say complexity, just size 16:24 < nmz787> but that doesn't come into play if i send out for fab 16:24 < kanzure> as you increase the number of variables you're dramatically increasing the constraint optimization problem 16:24 < nmz787> the SBIR would eliminate a lot of the feel of the size i think 16:25 < kanzure> uh.. 16:25 < nmz787> it could be reduce to UML blocks 16:25 < nmz787> derp 16:25 < kanzure> so because you can represent it in blocks, it's therefore less variables? 16:25 < kanzure> wtf 16:25 < nmz787> I mean blocks would be contracted out 16:25 < nmz787> rather than me worrying about the valves, pay a contractor who already knows 16:26 < nmz787> and then that doesn't require as much ramp up and debug 16:26 < Lemminkainen> even if you send stuff out for fab, you still have to test and verify what parts you get from there 16:26 < nmz787> mm 16:26 < Lemminkainen> think of all fabbed parts from 3rd parties as unknown code that you must unit test 16:26 -!- pyotra [~asakharov@24.60.79.55] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:27 < nmz787> luckily i don't think the final reaction center would need more than 8 input lines 16:27 < nmz787> ask kanzure about the droplet storage idea, that would be much more complex 16:27 < nmz787> i think at least in terms of routing lines around 16:29 < Lemminkainen> you said you're driving to SF next week, let me know if you have spare time and we'll see if we can meet up to whiteboard this whole thing out 16:29 < Lemminkainen> I'm in Oakland 16:29 < kanzure> oh are you? i've missed you every time i've been by then 16:29 < kanzure> unless, are you juul? 16:30 < Lemminkainen> I am not juul 16:30 < Lemminkainen> my being more permanent in any one place is a recent phenomenon 16:33 < nmz787> next month actually 16:33 < nmz787> for MakerFaire 16:34 < nmz787> cool, will contact 16:34 < nmz787> ok bye for real now 16:40 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-107-21-184-191.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:40 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-204-172-78.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:10 -!- aristarchus [~aristarch@unaffiliated/aristarchus] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:23 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@158-117-15.connect.netcom.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:36 < kanzure> "On the maximal quantity of processed information in the physical eschatological context" http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0112543.pdf?origin=publication_detail 17:39 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:53 -!- Baube [~Baube@65.95.14.15] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:17 < andytoshi> here's a cool fact: i just read in "darwin's dangerous idea" that the storage density of e.coli is 10^27 bits/m^3, which at the time of its calculation (1990) was a staggering density.. for reference i just calc'd a 3.5" 4Tb HDD has a density of ~10^17 bits/m^3 18:19 < kanzure> if you are saying that because of the paper i just linked, then you might be also interested in http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/The%20physics%20of%20information%20processing%20superobjects%20-%20Anders%20Sandberg%20-%201999.pdf 18:20 < kanzure> actually you might be interested in that one for other bitcoin reasons 18:20 < andytoshi> i am (though it's a happy coincidence, because i read that five minutes ago unrelatedly), thx 18:20 < kanzure> how'd you stumble into it? 18:21 < kanzure> oh i see 18:21 < kanzure> i interpreted that the wrong way 18:22 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.145.194] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:04 -!- snuffeluffegus [~John@homie-vserver314.dreamhost.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:34 < xentrac> the 4Tb HDD smells better 19:35 < xentrac> but that seems like a large price to pay for a ten-billion-fold reduction in storage density 19:36 < kanzure> actually we have banana-smelling ecoli these days 19:36 < kanzure> but nice try 19:36 < xentrac> does it smell like only banana, or more like a poopy banana? 19:37 < kanzure> there's also minty-smelling ecoli 19:37 < kanzure> http://biobuilder.org/eau-that-smell/ 19:37 < kanzure> "For the 2006 iGEM competition, MIT students designed Eau d’coli, E. coli that smell like bananas when their population is in the stationary phase. They did this by inserting a device that contains a stationary phase sensitive promoter coupled to a banana smell device, a device that contains a ribosome binding site (RBS), an open reading frame (ORF) that codes for the ATF1 enzyme and terminator sequences. The ATF1 enzyme converts isoamyl ... 19:37 < kanzure> ... alcohol to isoamyl acetate, the molecule that gives bananas their characteristic smell." 19:38 -!- snuffeluffegus [~John@homie-vserver314.dreamhost.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:39 < xentrac> I just managed to kill my tenth-level wizard by taking the wrong way out of being out flanked by a leocrotta and an ape in Minetown 19:40 < xentrac> tried to engrave Elbereth instead of drinking a potion of full healing, and they slaughtered me while I was engraving 19:40 < kanzure> is minetown like a dumbed down version of dwarf fortress? 19:41 < kanzure> nvm i see, it's minecraft 19:41 < xentrac> there's a minetown in minecraft? I was talking about Nethack 19:42 < kanzure> dingo: halp 19:43 < xentrac> I often think that the interaction structure of games could be useful in enhancing people's capacities 19:43 < kanzure> http://alt.org/nethack/player-endings.php?player=dingo 19:43 < xentrac> through things like carefully spaced practice 19:44 < kanzure> as opposed to the interaction structure of what 19:44 < xentrac> tools, I suppose 19:46 < kanzure> i've been pondering about a way to model human performance limits 19:47 < kanzure> there's obviously computational limits of any computing system 19:47 < kanzure> and presumably there's some upper bound on my intentional finger movement rate: http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile.php?username=kanzure 19:48 < kanzure> knowing the structure of the limits can help inform actions, e.g. whether it's a local constraint shared by similar agents or a constraint due to inefficient technology or something 19:54 < xentrac> you might have seen my speculations on how fast you could learn a language: https://www.mail-archive.com/kragen-tol@canonical.org/msg00243.html 19:54 < xentrac> the known constraints give an unrealistically fast bound on language learning 19:55 < kanzure> that's an interesting estimate, but good luck finding a native speaker who's willing to teach based on that concept? 19:57 < kanzure> i was subjected to public education where the foreign language teachers took an incomprehensibly stupid approach 19:57 < kanzure> little separation between mastery of sounds, pronounciation, spelling, writing, reading, oral reading, etc. 19:57 < kanzure> (but it also wasn't immersion) 19:58 < kanzure> hmm 1.5 seconds per repetition as the maximum allowable in the schedule? 19:59 < xentrac> that seems reasonable, no? 20:02 < kanzure> maybe. i've found that sometimes i require a bunch of calibration on a morpheme or pronounciation. still can't read IPA. 20:02 < kanzure> s/can't/haven't 20:03 < kanzure> by calibration i mean something that requires time and someone furrowing eyebrows at me 20:04 < xentrac> I can't read much IPA outside of what's needed for English and Spanish 20:07 < kanzure> i spent a long two years hooked behind supermemo doing card repetitions for 3-4 hours/day 20:07 < kanzure> sorta regret it 20:07 < xentrac> heh 20:08 < xentrac> do you still spend a few minutes a day to keep those alive? or did you give it up entirely? 20:08 < kanzure> cold turkey 20:08 < xentrac> bummer, so most of that memorization is gone now? 20:08 < xentrac> what kind of stuff were you memorizing? 20:08 < kanzure> anything and everything 20:08 < kanzure> but you have to understand that.. erm. hm. 20:08 < kanzure> the reasons why i was using it was not because i figured my memory was poor 20:09 < kanzure> but rather because it was a consistent behavior that i could perform 20:09 < dingo> < kanzure> dingo: halp 20:09 < dingo> minetown is a special level thats always guarenteed in nethack 20:09 < kanzure> i was hoping for your witty comments about nethack to make up for my own lack of play 20:09 < Lemminkainen> paperbot http://www.cell.com/cell-stem-cell/abstract/S1934-5909(14)00055-1 20:09 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/f87c0229d560f2a3a93fcc4960efd4d2.txt 20:09 < kanzure> nice try Lemminkainen 20:09 < xentrac> haha 20:09 < kanzure> xentrac: it turns out my memory is not really that bad on its own 20:09 < Lemminkainen> what went wrong there? 20:10 < kanzure> xentrac: so it was really just a behavior tar pit 20:10 < dingo> i've got a nethack character after completing the castle, just sitting on it now for a month, has good chance to win 20:10 < kanzure> Lemminkainen: paperbot doesn't have access to that one 20:10 < xentrac> I've never come close to that level of competency 20:10 < Lemminkainen> ahh, damn 20:10 < dingo> at some point nethack is about weight & item management, gets a little boring on the 2nd half 20:11 < xentrac> when does the 2nd half begin? 20:11 < dingo> when you reach hell... ghenohamn or however its spelled 20:11 < dingo> levels 40-80 or some such 20:11 < dingo> gehennom 20:11 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:13 < kanzure> the data was basically anything, but lots of physiology, neuroscience, biology, physics, math, some programming (but i found it too annoying because most of that didn't require repetition), music theory stuff.. etc. 20:13 < kanzure> some chemistry and organic reactions 20:13 < kanzure> i think i was adding more new entries per day than the digestable amount in the supermemo algorithm though 20:13 < kanzure> so it becomes sorta pointless at high volume 20:14 < kanzure> i think someone did an analysis and found that a total of 1.2M entries is digestable in a regular human lifetime in anki (not supermemo, but probably applies the same) 20:14 < xentrac> sounds reasonable 20:15 < xentrac> was it stuff that you were finding useful in the other parts of the day? 20:15 < kanzure> no, i was in high school and none of the content was relevant 20:15 < kanzure> (i was bored out of my mind) 20:16 < xentrac> it makes sense that that would kind of turn you off to it 20:16 < kanzure> it just got out of control and i had to remember why i was bothering with it etc 20:16 < xentrac> how many entries did you have at the end? 20:16 < kanzure> hmm at least 50k but probably less than 500k 20:18 < kanzure> at some point it is more efficient to not bother with repetition 20:18 < xentrac> supermemo etc. is kind of an example of what I was talking about 20:18 < xentrac> but it has the problem that it's kind of boring rather than addcitive 20:18 < xentrac> to me anyway. my experience was with anymemo 20:18 < kanzure> i didn't introduce you to supermemo/anki/spaced repetition did i? 20:19 < xentrac> no 20:19 < kanzure> oh good 20:19 < xentrac> the Wired article did 20:19 < xentrac> so unless you wrote that 20:19 < kanzure> nope 20:19 < xentrac> I do think there's probably some value in training 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