--- Log opened Sat Apr 19 00:00:07 2014
--- Day changed Sat Apr 19 2014
00:00 < fenn> maybe some day units will know how to multiply instead of subtract when the operands are incompatible
00:00 < fenn> but we live in a harsh and troubled world
00:00 < kanzure> you're telling me there's an entire third dimension?
00:01 < fenn> according to string theory there are up to eleven dimensions
00:01 < fenn> eleventy one and pi/e dimensions to be precise
00:01 < kanzure> fool, everyone knows there are only five. prepare the death ray.
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00:02 < fenn> the hexagon of truth protects me!
00:02 < kanzure> CHAOTICA: Eighth? Everyone knows there are only five dimensions.
00:02 < kanzure> JANEWAY: How could I resist your magnetism?
00:02 < kanzure> CHAOTICA: Or I yours! Together we'll rule the cosmos and grind our enemies into dust!
00:03 < fenn> that is definitely not how you spell eighthh
00:04 < ebowden> You know, there was one person, a bouncer, who also had an IQ of 167, who could hold about 21, rather than 7, elements in his head.
00:04 < kanzure> what if i told you my iq was 11 inches
00:04 < cpopell> ebowden: always doubt those claims.
00:05 < fenn> 167? i highly doubt it. because the world-highest-IQ human also is a bouncer, and it's higher than that
00:05 < cpopell> we don't really have adequate testing for greater than 3 SD IQs, I believe
00:06 < kanzure> mensa self-pity interest group
00:06 < ebowden> Working memory and IQ are not quite the same thing.
00:06 < fenn> IQ is mostly spatial pattern recognition.. blah
00:06 < fenn> i say this as someone who values spatial pattern recognition
00:07 < cpopell> ebowden: kuudes in #lesswrong studies IQ papers and stuff a lot I think
00:07 < ebowden> kuudes?
00:07 < cpopell> a user
00:07 < ebowden> Oh, ok.
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00:12 < fenn> "I’ve heard several hackers say that after drinking even half a beer they can’t program at all." which makes me wonder why so many startups have beer clubs and are obsessed with beer
00:13 < fenn> it's like hiring pyromaniacs to work in your explosives factory
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00:13 < ebowden> LOL
00:13 < cpopell> fenn: beer for ideas, coffee for implementation!
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00:15 < fenn> learning touch typing is simple, stay up all night on IRC on a crappy netbook with no keyboard lights
00:16 < fenn> cpopell: ah the waterfall model, or should we say kahlua mudslide model
00:17 < fenn> are all these words really spelled right? eighth? kahlua?
00:17 < cpopell> mhm
00:18 < fenn> the pitfalls of growing new brain cells
00:18 < ebowden> Oh, kanzure, have you heard of that study where they got people to play a game to distract them from whatever it was they were doing to their brains, and were able to teach them visual cues without them being actually showing them?
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00:19 < cpopell> I remember that
00:19 < ebowden> I can't find much on it.
00:19 < fenn> sounds like every psychology study ever
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00:19 < ebowden> Well, accept for popsci articles going: "OMFG! They can program skills into you! OMFG!"
00:20 < fenn> "this study is about psychomotor perception in depressed college students blah blah blah pay no attention to the man in the ape suit"
00:20 < ebowden> LOL
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00:21 < cpopell> yeah, ebowden, can't find the study
00:23 < ebowden> From a popsci article:
00:23 < ebowden> (You know this is going to be good.)
00:23 < fenn> the SR-71 had a laser line horizon display, it was imperceptible if you looked straight at it but nevertheless kept the pilot oriented
00:23 < ebowden> "Researchers from Boston University and Japan's ATR Computational Neuroscience Laboratories designed a decoded functional MRI neurofeedback method that induces a pre-recorded activation pattern in targeted early visual brain areas that could also produce the pattern through regular learning. They then tested whether repetitions of the fMRI pattern caused an improvement in the performance of that visual featur
00:23 < ebowden> e."
00:25 < fenn> um what
00:25 < ebowden> Yeah, from a popsci article.
00:26 < fenn> "produce the pattern" means "we saw it on the brain scan"?
00:26 < ebowden> Pretty much.
00:26 < fenn> so, what's the discovery? it just sounds like two ways of saying the same thing
00:26 < ebowden> "RESULTS: The experiments successfully demonstrated that, through a person's visual cortex, decoded fMRI could be used to impart brain activity patterns that match a previously known target state. Interestingly, behavioral data obtained before and after the neurofeedback training showed improved performance of the relevant visual tasks especially when the subjects were unaware of the nature of what they were
00:26 < ebowden> learning."
00:27 < ebowden> Again, mysteriously hard to find the original study.
00:28 < fenn> could you summarize what you think the article was about?
00:28 < ebowden> Oh, one sec:
00:28 < ebowden> http://www.sciencemag.org/content/334/6061/1413.abstract
00:28 < ebowden> There we are.
00:28 < ebowden> "PERCEPTUAL LEARNING INCEPTED BY DECODED FMRI NEUROFEEDBACK WITHOUT STIMULUS PRESENTATION"
00:30 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1212003
00:30 < ebowden> It's got 62 citations at the moment, it seems.
00:30 < ebowden> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3297423/pdf/nihms-359501.pdf
00:32 < ebowden> How's that?
00:33 < fenn> "early visual areas are so plastic that mere inductions of activity patterns are sufficient to cause learning"  i wasn't aware that this was still unproven
00:34 < fenn> i mean how else would it work
00:34 < fenn> i guess i dont understand why this is in popsci
00:35 < ebowden> MAGIC HOMEOPATHIC BRAIN PATRERNZ!
00:35 < ebowden> But yeah, it's just interesting that they did it without presentation of stimuli.
00:36 < ebowden> It apparently worked better when they were unaware of what they were doing.
00:36 < fenn> of course
00:36 < ebowden> brb
00:38 < cpopell> http://phys.org/news/2014-04-hidden-efficiencies-architecture.html I wonder how many terrible inaccuracies are in this article
00:38 < ebowden> Back.
00:39 < ebowden> Probably pretty terrible.
00:39 < ebowden> "Matrix style learning! OMFG! OMFG!"
00:42 < ebowden> It would be interesting to see if we could use the method used to train "early visual areas" to train the PFC.
00:42 < fenn> http://www.thefunctionalart.com/2014/04/the-jonah-lehrer-effect.html
00:44 < cpopell> ebowden: so are you in hs/college/working?
00:44 < ebowden> I'm in year 12 of high school.
00:44 < cpopell> UK
00:44 < cpopell> ?
00:44 < ebowden> Australia.
00:44 < cpopell> ah, alright
00:45 < cpopell> right. UK that would be sixth form(?)
00:45 < cpopell> US it would be 12th grade
00:45 < ebowden> Ok.
00:46 < cpopell> what are you doing after graduation?
00:46 < ebowden> Want to go into biotech, so that I may create a genetically engineered talking dog and have wacky adventures with it.
00:47 < jrayhawk> ah, living the dream
00:47 < ebowden> Yeah.
00:47 < ebowden> Oh, who here has ever had trouble with ethics boards?
00:48 < ebowden> :D
00:48 < jrayhawk> i like this line of questioning already
00:48 < cpopell> ...yashgaroth got threatened with a cease and desist by the defense threat reduction agency, iirc
00:48 < ebowden> What?
00:49 < cpopell> They told him that if he did human testing they were going to bring the hammer down, I believe.
00:49 < cpopell> He told me this story last year, so I might not be remembering right.
00:49 < ebowden> What was he doing?
00:49 < cpopell> Someone here might have been at the event it happened at
00:49 < cpopell> he's working with myostatin restriction
00:50 < ebowden> What is the role of myostatin restriction?
00:51  * cpopell is too poor of a biologist to state technically, so will copy/paste
00:51 < jrayhawk> http://ibmmyositis.com/supercow09.jpg
00:51 < cpopell> 'Myostatin is a secreted growth differentiation factor that is a member of the TGF beta protein family that inhibits muscle differentiation and growth in the process known as myogenesis. Myostatin is produced primarily in skeletal muscle cells, circulates in the blood and acts on muscle tissue, by binding a cell-bound receptor called the activin type II receptor.[2][3]'
00:51 < ebowden> Ah.
00:51 < cpopell> tl;dr super serum
00:51 < Viper168> teal deer
00:52 < Viper168> :O
00:52 < ebowden> So, where's he going with it?
00:52 < cpopell> vov, ask him
00:53 < ebowden> Damn, he's not here.
00:53 < fenn> i suspect gwern is surreptitiously running a distributed bitcoin miner in the javascript on his page, but I can't prove it
00:55 < fenn> does DTRA think that telling the upright responsible guy they're going to "bring the hammer down" will deter anyone from doing this sort of research?
00:56 < Lemminkainen> myostatin also signals for happy breakdown of damaged muscle fibers
00:56 < Lemminkainen> follistatin is a WAY better target for the effects you're looking at
00:56 < ebowden> I don't know, bureaucracies can be a little detached from reality at times.
00:57 < fenn> it will still happen, just in a less safe environment and with less eyes on the problem to detect possible bad stuffs before they happen
00:57 < cpopell> fenn: my guess is their worry is he was going to test unregulated on people
00:57 < cpopell> fenn: there's plenty of regulated research going on in the field
00:57 < fenn> unregulated what
00:58 < fenn> this is the FDA's jurisdiction if anything
00:58 < ebowden> Lemminkainen, you read the thing on teaching without presenting stimuli?
00:58 < fenn> DTRA is about bioterrorism
00:58 < fenn> and other terrorism
00:58 < fenn> and stuff
00:58 < cpopell> you'd have to ask yashgaroth
00:58 < ebowden> Imagine, disease that gives you massive muscles.
00:58 < fenn> so did they tell him to stop because it was biological, or because of "and stuff"
00:58 < cpopell> See previous comment
00:59 < fenn> yas<tab><tab> waaah
00:59 < cpopell> he's asleep I suspect
01:00 < ebowden> "And over to our science reporter, Alex Jones."
01:01 < fenn> trust me, i'm from the lunatic fringe
01:02 < fenn> Lemminkainen: but since you're a lazy nerd you wouldn't be damaging any muscle fibers by doing exercise anyway..
01:02 < cpopell> I know quite a few fit nerds
01:02 < ebowden> Even so, I don't think you'd appreciate Alex Jones as a science reporter.
01:04 < ebowden> Lemminkainen, you there?
01:04 < Lemminkainen> right fenn right the most i ever use muscles is to make ramen
01:04 < ebowden> Oh.
01:05 < cpopell> lemminkainen: andre will be so disappointed to hear that :V
01:05 < Lemminkainen> oh he's been gone
01:05 < cpopell> Russia, right?
01:05 < Lemminkainen> since then I've built a very comfortable sensory deprivation tank
01:05 < Lemminkainen> that's where I live now
01:05 < Lemminkainen> a nice steady stream of spice
01:05 < cpopell> Andre ditched you for Russia and Angelica ditched you for Coachella :P
01:06 < ebowden> Lemminkainen, you read this? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3297423/pdf/nihms-359501.pdf
01:06 < fenn> Lemminkainen: sign me up
01:07 < Lemminkainen> ebowden not yet, I'll glance through it tomorrow
01:07 < Lemminkainen> for now I am going to escape looking at screens
01:07 < ebowden> Ah, right.
01:07 < fenn> i've been designing "mobile sleep gunnm" an ATV-towable sleep pod
01:07 < ebowden> Night Lemminkainen.
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01:13 < fenn> soon i'll be raging across the arctic wilderness in perfect warmth, pulled along by my trusty cybernetic sled dogs
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01:25 < fenn> this made my day http://ruzamarkov.com/content/10.blog/2.2opt/smiley.pdf
01:27 < fenn> rest in peace, louis wain
01:41 < fenn> xentrac: re http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2005-May/000776.html  instead of a video, bounce a multiply diffracted laser beam off your mirror array and record the reflections. with enough laser points you can discriminate between harmonics and resynthesize the waveform. the active mirror telescopes do something like this but with guide stars instead of lasers
01:41 < fenn> or maybe that is what you said.
01:42 < fenn> playstation eye high speed webcams use a 4 element microphone array for exactly this purpose, but there's no linux driver afaik
01:44 < fenn> anyway you have the usual temporal/spatial/bit depth tradeoff; a high speed camera will add more more
01:46 < fenn> i suspect just an array of 4 or 8 decent quality microphones separated by several wavelengths would be satisfactory for most recording purposes (technically you only need 3 but redundancy helps with noise rejection)
01:46 < fenn> also this allows recording in any light conditions
01:47 < fenn> wind would be a real problem with a hanging mylar foil sheet, you'd want to fix it along all the edges
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01:51 < fenn> i was thinking it would be nice if the android "tricorder" app actually used its acoustic scanner function to do roughly 1d sonar. the speaker emission isn't omnidirectional, and neither is the microphone. combined with accelerometer, camera, gps, and magnetometer to provide orientation, you could build up a good idea of the environment from an acoustic perspective
01:52 < fenn> time of flight is actually reasonable at the speed of sound over room-sized distances. knowing local temperature and barometer from weather data and gps altitude, you could accurately measure room dimensions
02:12 < fenn> of course it would have to make a noise like this: http://www.nick.com/videos/clip/marooned-clip-1.html
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02:22 < ebowden> Is anyone here at the moment?
02:23 < cpopell> yo
02:23 < ebowden> Oh, hey.
02:24 < cpopell> bed soon tho
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02:25 < ebowden> Oh, ok.
02:25 < cpopell> sun's rising
02:25 < ebowden> Wow, you're up late.
02:26 < cpopell> I had writing to do, a little bit of code to poke at, and articles to read
02:26 < ebowden> Ok. So, do you think the method they used to train without stimulus presentation could be useful for potentially efficacious working memory training?
02:27 < cpopell> I think that it's possible
02:27 < cpopell> I can't comment either way, I don't have the knowledge to make an informed statement
02:27 < ebowden> Ah, ok.
02:28 < ebowden> Well, the subject being unaware of it will probably help in stopping them forming task specific strategies.
02:31 < ebowden> I do wonder exactly what kind of benefit we might end up being able to get.
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02:36 < cpopell> ebowden: I'm honestly more curious about tcds benefits (and similar)
02:36 < cpopell> Anyway.
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02:36 < ebowden> Ok.
02:36 < ebowden> Why not combine them? :D
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05:12 < ebowden> Anyone here?
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05:18 < xmj> no.
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06:05 < eudoxia> oh no someone younger than me, now i really have to start being productive :O
06:06 < ebowden> Who's younger than you?
06:06 < eudoxia> guess :D
06:07 < ebowden> I'm 18, but there are probably younger here.
06:07 < ebowden> Are there?
06:07 < eudoxia> gradstudent bot is only like 1 year old and when he becomes sentient he's gonna want to be counted
06:07 < eudoxia> gradstudentbot*
06:08 < ebowden> LOL
06:08 < eudoxia> but other than that, not to the best of my knowledge
06:09 < eudoxia> i'm 19, president and former sole member of the ##hplusroadmap kidz' corner
06:09 < ebowden> LOL
06:09 < ebowden> Kidz' corner.
06:09 < eudoxia> how did you run into this channel?
06:10 < eudoxia> friendly question not "jack bauer asking how did you get this number" question
06:11 < ebowden> Oh, yeah, I was interested in the possible biosynthesis of fullerenes, and Juri_ directed me.
06:11 < eudoxia> so can it be done or not
06:13 < ebowden> Well, nanotubes are certainly not inert to some enzymes.
06:13 < ebowden> Myeloperoxidase, for example.
06:13 < eudoxia> i think i remember something about an enzyme that dissolved them
06:14 < eudoxia> ah that's the one
06:14 < ebowden> Yup.
06:14 < eudoxia> there's something i've been wondering about the whole health risks of nanotubes thing
06:15 < ebowden> Depends on length.
06:15 < eudoxia> apparently it's because cells try to adsorb the capped ends of nanotubes, thinking they're nutrients, and then they can't adsorb them all because they are too long
06:15 < eudoxia> so they block the uh cell passages or whatever
06:15 < eudoxia> what about uncapped nanotubes though?
06:16 < eudoxia> http://www.rsc.org/ej/PC/2006/b419102c/b419102c-f1.gif like this, just picture terminating hydrogens
06:17 < ebowden> Ah, ok.
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06:53 < kanzure> eudoxia: he already has an unhealthy appreciation of age, don't exacerbate it
06:54 < ebowden> Ok, what are you talking about?
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06:55 < kanzure> just because people are older than you doesn't mean they are worth your time
06:55 < kanzure> or, something
06:56 < ebowden> Oh, I never said that someone being older than me made them worth my time.
06:57 < ebowden> I just said that my being 18 made me unlikely to be as qualified and knowledgable as a professional scientist in his own field.
06:57 < ebowden> Two very different things.
06:58 < kanzure> oh great, now you like professionals
06:58 < kanzure> this is getting worse by the minute
07:00 < ebowden> Look, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that someone like me is not particularly likely to approach that level of knowledge.
07:01 < ebowden> Look, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that someone like me is not particularly likely to have that level of knowledge.
07:01 < ebowden> Oops.
07:01 < ebowden> Typo.
07:02 < eudoxia> so where in australia do you live
07:02 < ebowden> Tasmania, the inbred state.
07:02 < eudoxia> lol
07:02 < ebowden> (It's an Island.)
07:03 < kanzure> yes we know geography
07:03 < ebowden> Oh, it was merely to ring the point home about Tasmania being inbred.
07:04 < eudoxia> tasmania sounds cold, what's the temperature like
07:04 < ebowden> There are places there where EVERYONE looks related.
07:04 < ebowden> Normal for me.
07:04 < ebowden> It's considered an ideal climate.
07:04 < ebowden> Very moderate in summer and winter.
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07:05 < eudoxia> [by whom?]
07:06 < ebowden> VenomFangX, NephlimFreed, and Alex Jones.
07:06 < ebowden> :D
07:06  * eudoxia googles
07:06 < eudoxia> i knew venomfangx sounded familiar
07:06 < ebowden> :D:D:D
07:07 < ebowden> Yeah, both of those guys are insane youtube creationists.
07:07 < ebowden> NephlimFreed is a geocentrist as well.
07:07 < ebowden> Truly some wacky shit.
07:08 < eudoxia> i can't wait for a geocentrist posthuman to start rearranging star systems to orbit habitable-zone planets
07:08 < ebowden> LOL
07:09 < ebowden> Oh, this shit is hilarious:
07:09 < ebowden> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhibN89WJtI
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07:12 < eudoxia> does this coldhardlogic guy just make videos cataloguing the paranoid schizophrenic of the internet?
07:13 < ebowden> No.
07:13 < kanzure> that's a short list, they're all the same person i think
07:13 < eudoxia> kanzure: who was the guy who wanted you to resurrect his mother?
07:13 < kanzure> juyun kim
07:14 < eudoxia> the south korean professional golfer?
07:14 < kanzure> no
07:14 < kanzure> joo yeon kim
07:17 < kanzure> "The alternative seems to be software randomly corrupting the installs, not much of a tradeoff. We could have a setting at least to disable the obfuscation (we'll need to support obfuscation off for 'legacy files' in any case). At least then they'd have to be specifically targeting Bitcoin."
07:17 < kanzure> "If it makes you feel better, obfuscating the block files would address some fringe risks. E.g. say someone discovers some disk sector value that that a popular brand of disk always stores incorrectly (don't laugh, I've had silicon flaws in switches result in packets that they cannot forward, due to the bit pattern making it lose sync with internal busses)... and exploit it to fork the network."
07:17 < kanzure> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4069#issuecomment-40863115
07:19 < eudoxia> well i use linux so i'm invincible
07:21 < kanzure> eudoxia: i don't think that one is schizophrenic, he simply legitimately believes i know things
07:23 < eudoxia> kanzure: he's still fubared in the head if he thinks you can revive with cryopreserved mother
07:23 < eudoxia> s/with/his
07:24 < kanzure> thanks for the vote of confidence
07:24 < eudoxia> can now, not could in the future :>
07:25 < eudoxia> also, do you know the patient number and name so i can add her to my cryopatient list?
07:26 < kanzure> this corpsicle is somewhere at cryonics institute
07:26 < eudoxia> i guessed
07:26 < kanzure> probably the only korean one
07:26 < eudoxia> it's not like they have a detailed record of names
07:26 < kanzure> i can't imagine many korean females opting for cryopreservation
07:27 < eudoxia> especially now with the site redesign they seem to have thrown the old case reports and patient lists out
07:27 < ebowden> Well, night guys.
07:27 < kanzure> "the one with the brain aneurysm"
07:28 < eudoxia> hm that narrows it down
07:28 < eudoxia> g
07:28 < eudoxia> g'ngiht ebowden
07:29 < ebowden> And for the record, although he is older than I, I wouldn't go to ken ham for advice on molecular biology.
07:29 < ebowden> Bye guys.
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07:29 < eudoxia> hm there are only references to aortic aneurysms
07:33 < eudoxia> http://198.170.115.106/reports/CI69.html no cause of death listed, does this seem like the right date?
07:34 < kanzure> no
07:35 < eudoxia> http://198.170.115.106/reports/CI73.html brain autopsied
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08:36 < kanzure> "mov is Turing-complete" http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~sd601/papers/mov.pdf
08:40 < kanzure> equity/options/vesting etc https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7610527
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09:40 < kanzure> one possible incentive for hardware packaging could be the ability to sue anyone (like patents)
09:40 < kanzure> but a legal incentive is much less compelling to a functional incentive
09:45 < kanzure> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/openworm/openworm-a-digital-organism-in-your-browser
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09:54 < kanzure> oh i wonder why the location is marked as san diego
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10:26 < cluckj> haha worm dudes...
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10:34 < ThomasEgi> simulate a virtual neuron, in a virtual worm, in a sandbox, in a browser, in a OS, in a virtual machine, ....
10:46 < catern> ...hosted on a server, in a virtual universe
10:47 < xmj> the matrix.
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13:01 < kanzure> "Outside of the germline, C. elegans does not undergo cellular division in the adult stage. There is a fixed developmental pattern, with exactly 959 cells in the adult hermaphrodite. Also, the connectivity map of the entire nervous system is known."
13:01 < kanzure> huh, i didn't know about the no cellular division aspect
13:02 < kanzure> "There's this project by Stanford to simulate Mycoplasma genitalium: http://wholecellviz.stanford.edu "
13:03 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(12)00776-3
13:03 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/A%20Whole-Cell%20Computational%20Model%20Predicts%20Phenotype%20from%20Genotype.pdf
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13:06 < kanzure> i'm not sure these stickers are worth anything to people who donate money
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13:35 < drazak> kanzure: did you put your books drive in a HUGE torrent on iptorrents?
13:36 < drazak> my friend downloaded something that looks strangely familiar
13:36 < kanzure> no
13:36 < kanzure> many of the contents were from some ancient torrents
13:36 < drazak> ah
13:36 < drazak> got like 16gb of math books
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13:48 < drazak> http://pastebin.com/P1gr4FMb
13:48 < drazak> that's the folders in /math/
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14:42 < kanzure> there should be a cryonics horror fiction about some vigilante that steals corpsicles or something
14:42 < kanzure> "thank you, ice packing man"
14:42 < kanzure> oh right, that was dr. fries
14:42 < kanzure> freeze
14:44 < andytoshi> maybe he uses the frozen brains to do computations, which requires reanimating them
14:44 < andytoshi> and for some reason the computations feel like losing love?
14:45 < eudoxia> are u satoshi
14:47 < nsh> yes
14:47 < nsh> and so are my y-fronts
14:48 < kanzure> i'm satoshi and so is my wife
14:48 < cpopell`sleep> kanzure: someone tell gwern
14:50 < kanzure> i've always been surprised about how there's no schizophrenic going around claiming that alcor or cryonics institute or ben best aren't just people with a pathological obsession with collecting human bodies
14:50 < kanzure> it would be a very easy claim to make
14:51 < eudoxia> you'd think there would be some weirdo with a youtube channel going around filming in a forest for evidence that alcor dumps bodies in rivers
14:51 < kanzure> alcor is a front for the mafia
14:51 < kanzure> when they threatened to dump your body into a river what they meant was a river of liquid nitrogen
14:51 < kanzure> and by river they meant, get into this casket
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14:52 < cluckj> lol
14:52 < eudoxia> there's a joke somewhere about cryocare's underground concrete dewar vaults
14:56 < andytoshi> kanzure: someone here could do it, use http://youtu.be/58I8ukqbk8k for inspiration (a truly insane video which seems to be accusing dan dennett of being a tool of the vatican/NWO using 5-second clips of his interviews, screenshots of wikipedia with dozens of words circled, loud spooky music and pictures of satan, people laughing, etc. really artistic and over an hour long o_O)
14:57 < eudoxia> well there is some historical precedent
14:57 < eudoxia> CSC let their bodies thaw and rot
14:57 < eudoxia> and TT was going to throw out three patients
15:15 < cluckj> aw shit my router has a heartbleed vulnerable ssl
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16:05 < ParahSailin> http://morepypy.blogspot.be/2014/04/stm-results-and-second-call-for.html
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16:17 < kanzure> ParahSailin: this is a little fun http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/11/11/the-gervais-principle-ii-posturetalk-powertalk-babytalk-and-gametalk/
16:17 < ParahSailin> yeah saw that a while ago
16:17 < ebowden> LOL love the name.
16:17 < ParahSailin> meanwhile, the civilized world has been using stm for a while
16:17 < kanzure> ParahSailin: "The second reason is that tactics make sense only in the context of an entire narrative (including mutual assessments of personality, strengths, weaknesses and history) of a given interpersonal relationship. The clueless have no sense of narrative rationality, and the losers are too trapped in their own stories to play to other scripts. Both the clueless and losers are too self-absorbed to put in much work developing accurate ...
16:18 < kanzure> ... and usable mental models of others."
16:18 < eudoxia> guys i think i may be a loser
16:19 < kanzure> well, you're certainly stuck
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16:19 < kanzure> not impossibly stuck though
16:20 < kanzure> just normal amounts of stuck
16:20 < eudoxia> do you mean emotionally stuck or stuck as in i haven't uploaded any insects in the years i've been here
16:20 < ParahSailin> dont worry, nasal spray oxytocin can convert you to sociopath
16:20 < kanzure> i haven't seen any progress from you on anything except your ability to bug me about things (which, by the way, i do appreciate)
16:21 < ebowden> I wonder kanzure, would it be possible for this place to get actual funding from the NRA?
16:21 < kanzure> ebowden: yes i think it's possible
16:21 < kanzure> ebowden: gene guns
16:21 < ebowden> LOL
16:21 < ParahSailin> freedom viruses
16:21 < kanzure> ebowden: 2nd amendmight rights for synthetic biology
16:21 < kanzure> *amendment
16:21 < ParahSailin> second amendment covers biological warfare
16:21 < kanzure> yep
16:22 < ebowden> Well, why not?
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16:22 < kanzure> because i haven't written a proposal yet
16:22 < eudoxia> i should do nootropics
16:22 < kanzure> also because the amount of money that the NRA could give me is not really that much
16:22 < ParahSailin> the state dept has a request for proposals for a north kr freedom virus
16:22 < eudoxia> maybe if i fake ADHD or whatever i can get something prescribed
16:22 < kanzure> like, is it really worth owing research to the NRA for a measly $300k or whatever they could cough up?
16:23 < kanzure> eudoxia: sure, but also it might be helpful to put some thought into whatever it is you're doing
16:23 < ebowden> What exactly would they want from you?
16:23 < kanzure> eudoxia: like, are you still waiting around for me to lisperize nanoengineer and then..?
16:23 < eudoxia> kanzure: that too
16:23 < kanzure> ebowden: NRA accepts research proposals for grants/funding
16:24 < ebowden> Neat.
16:24 < kanzure> ebowden: so they'd probably want community outreach or something
16:24 < kanzure> ebowden: and i might have to find an NRA member to convince, or pay dues or some crap
16:24 < eudoxia> kanzure: hahaha no, i've basically given up on MNT happening any time soon or ever
16:24 < kanzure> i didn't make a claim about MNT, but ok
16:24 < kanzure> bbl
16:24 < ebowden> MNT?
16:25 < eudoxia> and skdb is an interesting project to work on but the stuff you said the other day gave me a minor existential crisis about it
16:25 < eudoxia> ebowden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_nanotechnology
16:25 < ebowden> Eudoxia, what is SKBD?
16:26 < ebowden> Ah, thanks.
16:26 < eudoxia> ebowden: http://gnusha.org/skdb/ https://github.com/kanzure/skdb
16:30 < ebowden> Thanks.
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17:02 < kanzure> eudoxia: i don't think they are intractable problems with something like skdb
17:02 < kanzure> eudoxia: they are simply problems that need to be solved
17:03 < eudoxia> like paying people in skdbcoin every time a package is submitted
17:03 < kanzure> too much of a hack
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17:04 < eudoxia> or just make enough packages that people who want to develop hardware will say "oh look this skdb thing might make life easier"
17:04 < kanzure> a debian package is useful even to a single user that never releases the package to others
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17:05 < kanzure> cubespawn's insistence on standardized containers was interesting
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17:09 < kanzure> even if you strip out the physical instantiation of hardware packages
17:09 < kanzure> there are still weird problems with things like technology dependency trees
17:09 < kanzure> because then you get into problems of ontologies or arguments about actual paths for the construction of certain functional piles of matter
17:11 < kanzure> given two rectangular planar plates of metal there are multiple manufacturing routes to reach that
17:12 < kanzure> s/given two/given a
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17:13 < kanzure> and the only time that technology dependency trees have been literally useful has been in real-time strategy games heh
17:13 < cpopell> kanzure: are you a Civ fan?
17:13 < kanzure> actually no
17:14 < cpopell> I'm looking forward to Civ:BE, though I had no real interest in Civ 5
17:14 < kanzure> played a bunch of it when i was younger with my dad
17:14 < ParahSailin> freeciv is the best civ
17:14 < cpopell> at least 2 of the 3 tech paths in Beyond Earth are H+
17:14 < kanzure> we used to do warcraft 2 but moved on to civilization at some point
17:14 < ParahSailin> concurrent turn 16 player games with macros
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17:15 < kanzure> it wasn't /bad/ but i'm not exactly playing it at 3am..
17:15 < cpopell> I played a lot of Sword of the Stars in college
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17:20 < delinquentme> kanzure, I'm writing up a quick profile on 2013 igem winners ... with 1 sentence statements of their application ... do you want a copy of this?
17:20 < kanzure> uh, alright
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17:49 < eudoxia> kanzure: well, you could always make a package that's just pointers to store where you can buy the stuff, and then someone else comes along and makes a package that has actual dependency and build trees
17:49 < eudoxia> but yeah, it's not as clear-cut as software package management
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19:34 < kanzure> ParahSailin: meetlog should be renamed to "computational sociopathy"
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21:34 < fenn> wow Examine.com has really filled out since I last looked at it. 30,000 scientific papers about dietary supplement studies, condensed and regularized. here's their pesky reference guide, clocking in at just over 1000 pages https://www.dropbox.com/s/j0outxxb23o9ett/Examine%20Updated.pdf
21:35 < fenn> of course you STILL can't sort by effect magnitude
21:35 < ebowden> Who's it pesky to, and what's pesky about it?
21:36 < fenn> it's pesky because they used to have the collated info available online, but now you have to buy the book just to use the website the way it used to work
21:36 < fenn> unfortunately pirating the book doesn't get you website access
21:37 < fenn> however i suspect even if you bought the book you still wouldn't be able to sort by magnitude
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21:41 < cpopell> fenn: it's their fulltime job
21:42 < fenn> remind me again why the US government doesn't pay them to do this
21:42 < cpopell> I think they're canadian
21:42 < cpopell> :V
21:42 < fenn> UK i think
21:42 < cpopell> er, no
21:42 < fenn> doesn't matter
21:42 < cpopell> Kurtis Frank is def canadian
21:42 < cpopell> dunno about Sol Orwell
21:43 < fenn> the point is, NIH has a gazillion dollars to fund medical research, but nobody knows much about supplements
21:44 < fenn> the US army keeps a similar list, but it's not as large or as rigorous
21:46 < fenn> i wish google search results had a "fuck off and give me the URL" option
21:47 < fenn> why would you ever put an ellipsis in a youtube video url
21:48 < fenn> they're all the same length
21:50 < ebowden> Oh, anyone here ever found a significant religious element on ethics boards?
21:50 < fenn> you mean institutional review boards? not from my experience
21:51 < ebowden> Ah, that's good.
21:52 < fenn> they are usually made up of tenured professors in the field you are working in
21:52 < ebowden> I remember, I wrote a story in which all the christians left an ethics board, which, as we all would have guessed resulted in the creation of a spiked worm creature that could shoot superheated perchloric acid from it's bum.
21:52 < ebowden> *guessed,
21:53 < ebowden> *its
21:53 < ebowden> :D
21:54 < fenn> uh, doesn't that already exist?
21:55 < fenn> the bombardier beetle
21:55 < ebowden> Formic acid and perchloric acid are a little different...
21:55 < ebowden> More than a little different.
21:55 < ebowden> Formic acid is a nasty irritant.
21:56 < ebowden> Perchloric acid is superacid, stronger than sulphuric acid, and is also a very potent oxidising agent. Anhydrous perchloric acid explodes on contact with organic matter.
21:56 < ebowden> *is a
21:57 < ParahSailin> the beetle that shoots hot shit is hydroquinone and hydrogen peroxide
21:57 < fenn> what does hydroquinone do?
21:57 < ebowden> Oh, right.
21:57 < fenn> tastes bad?
21:58 < kanzure> nih only has 30 gazillion (billion)
21:58 < ParahSailin> its just something that oxidizes exothermically in this case
21:58 < ebowden> Still, nowhere near the level of nastiness of perchloric acid.
21:59 < fenn> ebowden: there probably are IRB's that have strongly religious members, i'd expect most religious universities would
21:59 < kanzure> there are non-religious reasons that people can choose to support the precautionary principle
21:59 < kanzure> s/support/employ
21:59 < kanzure> on review boards.
22:00 < fenn> also federal IRB's in the bush administration were something of a clusterfuck
22:00 < ebowden> Well, why don't we establish our own lab, and make our review board from carefully preserved corpses.
22:00 < kanzure> if the nuremberg trials ever reach ##hplusroadmap i'm gonna tell them you guys did it :duck:
22:00 < ebowden> :D
22:00 < kanzure> ebowden: many people do have their own labs. what of it?
22:00 < kanzure> by many i mean like 3
22:01 < ebowden> LOL
22:01 < fenn> i didn't do it (dj bart simpson remix)
22:01 < kanzure> but the important thing is that it's non-zero
22:01 < fenn> a statistically significant number of people have their own labs
22:01 < ebowden> Kanzure, we must build a big underground lab, with completely inexplicable tanks and catwalks everywhere.
22:02 < kanzure> the problem with an underground lab is that the business model is not very obvious
22:02 < kanzure> it's not like you can tell cancer patients to take your radiation drug because it's cheaper
22:02 < kanzure> (because their insurance company is probably paying for it anyway)
22:02 < kanzure> (and big pharma then covers all the other uncovered people because big pharma doesn't want to be bloodied up by bad press coverage)
22:03 < fenn> except for when the insurance company doesn't pay for it
22:03 < fenn> some of that shit is stupidly expensive
22:03 < kanzure> i've been trying to find evidence of this
22:03 < fenn> like $10k/mo
22:03 < fenn> or more
22:03 < ebowden> The purpose isn't to make money, it's to have a bunch of inexplicable catwalks, tanks and pipes everywhere.
22:03 < kanzure> so, consider the antibody drugs that are $400k/mo for super rare you're gonna fucking die disease
22:03 < ebowden> :D
22:03 < kanzure> oops $400k/year i mean
22:04 < kanzure> i am having a lot of trouble finding anyone complaining about how they're gonna die if they don't get it
22:04 < kanzure> it turns out this is the exact sort of public relations blackmail that big pharma tries to avoid by giving them the damn medicine
22:04 < kanzure> which weeds out the opportunity for clandestine underground stuff
22:05  * fenn mutters something about tuberculosis in africa
22:05 < kanzure> interestingly enough none of the $400k/year antibody drugs look like they cost anywhere near $400k to produce on a small scale
22:05 < kanzure> (much lower)
22:05 < kanzure> i thought there's a flood of tuberculosis drugs, the problem is finding all the people in africa?
22:06 < ParahSailin> theres that ebola outbreak in guinea right now
22:06 < fenn> almost certainly not; just call up your friendly neighborhood monoclonal antibody specialist and have them send the rabbit right over
22:06 < ParahSailin> they could use some draco
22:06 < yashgaroth> TB is a logistics problem, or it was before people started slacking on their antibiotic regimens
22:06 < fenn> ParahSailin: what's draco?
22:06 < kanzure> draco is something that venturecommunism was ranting about as a broad-spectrum antiviral mumble mumble
22:06 < ParahSailin> Ds Rna Activate Caspase O-something
22:06 < fenn> also wtf why does nobody seriously develop phage therapy in the 21st century
22:07 < ParahSailin> because phage therapy is hinky
22:07 < fenn> "hinky"?
22:07 < kanzure> learn the lingo fenn
22:07 < yashgaroth> draco overrides the cell's normal response to viral infection by just having it die immediately
22:07 < ParahSailin> extremely specific
22:07 < fenn> um, yeah. it kills the tuberculosis, not you.
22:07 < fenn> isn't specificity a good thing?
22:08 < ParahSailin> extreme specificity
22:08 < yashgaroth> also phages are a target for your own immune system
22:08 < ParahSailin> theres a reason other than vast right wing conspiracy that phage therapy hasnt overtaken antibioitcs
22:08 < fenn> fortunately the lungs are exposed to direct treatment
22:09 < fenn> ParahSailin: i always figured there's just no money in it?
22:09 < fenn> can't patent 1970s soviet technology
22:09 < ParahSailin> lets move past the conspiracy theory part
22:09 < fenn> it's not a conspiracy theory
22:09 < fenn> just a market explanation
22:10 < yashgaroth> if they can re-patent a drug by mixing in some token additive, I'm sure they can find a way to patent phage
22:10 < ParahSailin> paperbot: http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/58/4/535.short
22:10 < kanzure> ahem just like the "big pharma gives out the expensive drugs for free" market explanation (although, it would be interesting to put out a call to collect evidence to the contrary)
22:10 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/96efca4e09ee4d28e63b0c0e9575b22f.txt
22:10 < fenn> clinical trials cost money.. blah blah blah. same reason they don't do lots of studies on vitamins and herbs etc
22:13 < fenn> jesus sometimes i can't believe the things they hide behind paywalls
22:13 < fenn> paperbot: http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/58/4/535.full
22:14 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1093%2Fcid%2Fcit776
22:15  * fenn snores
22:15 < kanzure> find me evidence of people not getting necessary expensive-but-easy-to-manufacture drugs
22:16 < kanzure> ideally large groups of said people..
22:18 < fenn> i suppose you mean people who also have money to spend
22:18 < kanzure> well, maybe not a lot of money
22:18 < fenn> more than $1
22:19 < kanzure> more than the costs of shipping, perhaps
22:19 < ParahSailin> well, disenfranchised people tend to be out of sight with no voice
22:19 < kanzure> or dead
22:19 < kanzure> maybe that's the other half of the equation
22:20 < kanzure> "well, if they make a stink in the news, we can just give it to them"
22:20 < kanzure> "and if they don't, they die. so it kind of takes care of itself."
22:20 < fenn> so this paper basically just says what i said; phage therapy would compete with antibiotics, it's unpatentable, it would cost $5 million per medical trial, no legal framework in place for phages, and lack of published scientific trials on humans
22:20 < ParahSailin> its not just chinese who you see in the tcm pharmacies
22:20 < kanzure> so, maybe simple site where people on expensive drugs sign in (dead man switch), and when they die due to lack of medication, that data gets tracked
22:21 < ParahSailin> lots of mexicans and africans too
22:21 < kanzure> because you can't retroactively ask them if they couldn't get their dumb blood thinners or w/e
22:21 < fenn> the paper also points at http://phagoburn.eu
22:22 < fenn> kanzure: people usually have surviving family members that know this kind of thing
22:23 < fenn> it's a sample bias but whatever
22:23 < kanzure> http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2010/09/24/obamacare_death_panels_target_expensive_cancer_drug_avastin
22:23 < kanzure> "CALLER: Yeah, that's fine. For a month's dosage it runs between 20,000 and $30,000."
22:23 < kanzure> "death panels" lovely
22:23 < ParahSailin> i told you!
22:23 < fenn> death to avastin, yarrr matey
22:23 < ParahSailin> they're real!
22:23 < fenn> pew pew
22:24 < fenn> i like to think of the death panels as phased array microwave beams on my orbiting battle station
22:24 < kanzure> yes but where's the number on deaths from not getting stupid-expensive drugs
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22:25 < fenn> that data is available from the office of we-dont-track-that
22:25 < kanzure> maybe this can be estimated
22:25 < kanzure> obviously the number is less than the total population
22:25 < ParahSailin> you know that big data dump the medicine ministry just released?
22:25 < ParahSailin> maybe there are gleanings to be had
22:25 < kanzure> so at most i'm off by two or three orders of magnitude
22:26 < kanzure> maybe SEC tax filing report stuff from big pharma has total patient estimates
22:27 < fenn> did we just get a big lag?
22:27 < kanzure> doesn't look like it to me
22:27 < kanzure> compare against gnusha logs
22:27 < fenn> meh
22:28 < fenn> anyway i saw a news report a couple days ago about people dying from not getting drugs, of course it was a pretty middle class white girl they focused on, but presumably there were others
22:28 < fenn> i wasn't paying much attention, obviously
22:28 < kanzure> "The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention puts the annual cost of asthma in the United States at more than $56 billion, including millions of potentially avoidable hospital visits and more than 3,300 deaths, many involving patients who skimped on medicines or did without."
22:29 < fenn> oh but nobody bothers to research magnesium for asthma
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22:30 < fenn> those new "medicines" work by killing your immune system
22:30 < ParahSailin> there are undoubtedly people in the third world dying of cancer but can't get avastin
22:31 < fenn> it's too bad all-cause mortality studies take so long
22:31 < ParahSailin> roche made 6.2 bn chf from avastin last year
22:32 < ParahSailin> another 6.9 bn from MabThera
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22:32 < kanzure> "96% of the non-compliant patients cited unaffordable drugs"
22:33 < kanzure> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15576016 "Unaffordable drug prices: the major cause of non-compliance with hypertension medication in Ghana"
22:33 < kanzure> "93% of the interviewed patients did not comply with their medications. 96% of the non-compliant patients cited unaffordable drug prices as the main reason for non-compliance."
22:33 < kanzure> yeah...
22:33 < kanzure> gah what's the study size
22:34 < kanzure> ah here it is http://www.ualberta.ca/~csps/JPPS7(3)/L.Matowe/hypertension.pdf
22:35 < kanzure> 128 patients
22:35 < kanzure> that's a stupid small number
22:35 < fenn> 90% of science is crap
22:35 < ParahSailin> in ghana its probably hard to get subjects because of suspicion of witchcraft
22:36 < kanzure> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/803415 "In a forum article published online April 25 in Blood, the group of 120 experts from around the world discuss the high cost of leukemia drugs, but emphasize that their concerns extend to many other types of cancer drugs. The high price of drugs has resulted in nonadherence to treatment, they note. In the United States, about 10% of patients fail to take prescribed drugs, largely because of cost."
22:36 < ParahSailin> wow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_camp
22:37 < ParahSailin>  Witch camps exist solely in Ghana, where there are six of them, housing a total of around 1000 women.[1] Some of the camps are thought to have been set up over 100 years ago
22:37 < kanzure> "There were 3 news drugs approved by the FDA in 2012 for chronic myeloid leukemia (CML) — all BCr-Abl tyrosine kinase inhibitors (TKIs). All were "priced at astronomical levels," they write. Ponatinib (Iclusig, Ariad) costs $138,000 annually, omacetaxine (Synribo, Teva) costs $28,000 for induction and $14,000 for a maintenance course, and bosutinib (Bosulif, Pfizer) costs around $118,000 per year."
22:37 < kanzure> "Even the original drug in this class, imatinib (Gleevec, Novartis), which was launched in 2001 at a price of $30,000 per year, has had a huge price hike; in 2012, it cost $92,000 per year."
22:37 < kanzure> "In a letter published in response to the forum article, Hervé Hoppenot, president of Novartis Oncology, emphasized its patient access programs, in which the company provides drugs for free. In the past 5 years, those programs have provided imatinib or its follow-up drug nilotinib (Tasigna) to an average of 5000 uninsured or underinsured American patients annually, he reports. Globally, nearly one third of the imatinib manufactured annually ...
22:37 < kanzure> ... is provided at no cost, which amounts to more than 50,000 patients in more than 80 low-income countries to date, he adds. However, he does not comment on the price of imatinib or explain why it has risen since its launch."
22:38 < kanzure> "This is resulting in financial ruin for some patients; medical illness and drug prices are the single-most frequent cause of personal bankruptcy, the group notes."
22:38 < fenn> "witches do not exist, so we are closing the witch camp." great strategy guys
22:38 < kanzure> well okay, even with copays and premiums, coverage might still be problematic
22:38 < kanzure> and if you're going to be dying, you don't exactly want to leave your family with a $200k bill
22:38 < kanzure> "The high cost is also stopping some patients from taking the drug. The group notes that survival rates are lower in the general population of CML patients in the United States than those reported in clinical trials and from countries such as Sweden, where there is no copayment for medicine, and they suspect that lower treatment penetration rates are to blame."
22:39 < kanzure> " One study conducted over 14 years in Washington state found a clear relationship between cancer registry data and bankruptcy court records. “Patients diagnosed with cancer may face significant financial stress due to income loss and out-of-pocket costs associated with their treatment,” said health care economist and study author Dr. Scott Ramsey. “On average, bankruptcy rates increased fourfold within five years of diagnosis.”"
22:40 < kanzure> but it also sounds like these guys are just making up estimates too
22:40 < fenn> it's also not guaranteed to work, so you're taking this drug that doesn't work and it still costs you $200k, good reason to stop
22:42 < kanzure> "Nearly one-quarter of uninsured people between 18 and 64 skipped buying prescribed medication as a way to save money, according to the report. About one-fifth of poor people also said they skipped taking medication."
22:42 < kanzure> is talking about "Strategies used by adults to reduce their prescription drug costs" http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db119.pdf
22:42 < fenn> kanzure: with obamacare being so new, all your historical statistics are going to be wrong wrt the current situation
22:42 < kanzure> true :|
22:43 < kanzure> also i don't think sick people that get footed with a $80k/mo bill go straight to "hey i'm gonna go on the internet and complain"
22:44 < fenn> yeah it's usually just "well, that's not an option, what else"
22:45 < kanzure> "hm this homeopathic stuff sounds cheap"
22:45 < fenn> or they enroll in the charity program
22:45 < fenn> i mean 1/3 of patients is a large number
22:45 < kanzure> but they are getting it for free
22:45 < kanzure> that really warps the market for people interested in offering a $10 drug
22:46 < fenn> because $10 is more than free?
22:46  * kanzure nods
22:46 < fenn> yeah people arent too good at math
22:46 < kanzure> and insurance copies wont cover the $10 drug
22:47 < fenn> and the FDA won't approve the $10 drug because they want $5 million first
22:47 < fenn> that means you need at least $5million/$10 = 500,000 patients
22:47 < fenn> or something like that
22:47 < kanzure> well, assume it's underground
22:47 < kanzure> and not bothering with FDA approval stuff
22:47 < fenn> good luck with that
22:48 < kanzure> it's not like there isn't a large market for sketchy drugs on that thing
22:48 < kanzure> damn what do they call it
22:48 < kanzure> oh yeah the fucking internet
22:48 < fenn> most people buy their synthetic marijuana at gas stations
22:49 < fenn> excuse me, 'herbal potpourri'
22:50 < fenn> it really bothers me that so many people take chemicals and nobody knows what it is
22:50 < xmj> homeopathic stuff.. Steve Jobs has shown the world how well that works, I'd like to thank him for that here.
22:50 < fenn> not even "we don't know the effects of this chemical", but "we don't even know what's in it"
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22:52 < fenn> oh damn i meant to ask him something
22:52 < fenn> maybe it's in the logs
23:04 < fenn> it wasn't in the logs
23:04 < xmj> ?
23:04 < kanzure> http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/07/26/a-big-little-idea-called-legibility/
23:04 < kanzure> "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from nature." http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2012/06/05/towards-an-appreciative-view-of-technology/
23:05 < kanzure> "Perhaps as a result, I have been accused in the past (with some justification) of turning my technology writing and thinking into a sort of sloppy anthropomorphic thermodynamic theology based on loose notions of technological agency, entropy and decay. ... In my more mean-spirited and uncharitable moments, I like to think of Biasocial Science as an enterprise driven by the grand-daddy of all biases: the bias towards believing that cataloging ...
23:05 < xmj> fenn: you cannot obtain effects of chemicals but with a trial-error on a very large group of humans.
23:05 < kanzure> ... biases advances our understanding of the human condition in a fundamental way that can enable the construction and enactment of a progressive “Ascent of Quantified Man” narrative."
23:05 < kanzure> http://www.tempobook.com/2012/06/11/appreciative-versus-manipulative-mental-models/ "My instinctive preference for complexity made sense from the perspective of purpose. I like purposeless models. Or equivalently, models that exist before clear purposes do. It makes sense that such models are often more complex. It isn’t that I like complexity for its own sake, but that I like purposeless models, which are often complex. They help me ...
23:05 < kanzure> ... appreciate something on its own terms, rather than through the lens of something I want to achieve."
23:05 < kanzure> some weird nomadic stuff http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2011/07/31/on-being-an-illegible-person/
23:06 < fenn> wasn't there a /MEMO command to send messages to offline nicks?
23:06 < xmj> there is memoserv.
23:06 < kanzure> .tell fenn hello
23:06 < yoleaux> kanzure: I'll pass your message to fenn.
23:06 < fenn> oh, i guess it used to be part of chanserv. never would have guessed "memoserv"
23:06 < yoleaux> 06:06Z <kanzure> fenn: hello
23:07 < xmj> fenn: more like, part of nickserv -- ages ago
23:07 < xmj> memoserv has been around for a decade or so
23:07 < kanzure> fenn has been stuck in a timewarp so be forgiving
23:07 < fenn> actually i keep falling through time portals
23:07 < xmj> leets do the tiiimewarp agaaaaain
23:08 < fenn> but it feels like a time warp sometimes
23:09 < kanzure> psychic prison
23:10 < fenn> .tell yashgaroth why did DTRA tell you to stop myostatin research? did they explain their rationale? is it explained somewhere? honestly this seems like something DARPA would be interested in developing, not trying to squash (unless they already secretly have it)
23:10 < yoleaux> fenn: I'll pass your message to yashgaroth.
23:11 < fenn> i suck at .tell
23:12 < fenn> "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from nature." BULLSHIT
23:13 < fenn> the sort of statement made by someone who hasn't studied either technology or nature
23:13 < kanzure> continue?
23:13 < fenn> well.. biology is riddled with clever and not so clever hacks
23:13 < fenn> rocks don't have any particular function
23:13 < xmj> so is computer science. :p go on
23:14 < kanzure> well why would ai be distinguishable from .. blah something about turing tests or boxes of ai.
23:14 < fenn> oh, if the technology is camouflage, sure
23:15 < fenn> but i think they were putting nature up on a pedestal as a goal toward which technology is inevitably progressing toward
23:15 < fenn> anyway photosynthesis is only like 2% efficient
23:16 < fenn> there are so many tradeoffs based on making things out of molecular legos
23:16 < kanzure> i'll go for your non-pedestal claim, but natural selection stuff is pretty useful
23:16 < fenn> hey i am on antihistamines, don't expect too much out of me this season
23:17 < fenn> you know what's better than natural selection? artificial selection
23:17 < kanzure> what's artificial about it?
23:17  * fenn points at the "no philosophy" sign
23:18 < xmj> fenn: who is going to be the last arbiter of artificial selectino?
23:18 < xmj> selection*
23:18 < fenn> huh?
23:18 < kanzure> xmj why should i not kick you
23:18 < fenn> you're saying that because humans are part of nature that "artificial selection" is a subset of nature?
23:19 < xmj> kanzure: you come up with a good reason
23:19 < fenn> (am i being trolled?)
23:19 < xmj> I didn't mean to troll you.
23:19 < ebowden> Doesn't nature cover all of reality?
23:19 < kanzure> you are definitely being trolled, given recent xmj statements in this channel
23:19 < xmj> yawn
23:20 < xmj> fenn: i'll let you pass this one without answering, because everyone thinks i'm trolling when i'm not.
23:20 < fenn> ebowden: words become meaningless if you stare at them too long
23:20 < ebowden> To you, yes.
23:20 < xmj> with natural selection, your survival (or lack thereof) is last arbiter .
23:21 < ebowden> But everyone else just keeps talking like normal, and stays in reality.
23:21 < fenn> false. propagation of your information is the last arbiter
23:22 < xmj> no such thing with artificial selection. it then turns into choice of someone to let you survive or not. who  would that be, in your world?
23:22 < fenn> ebowden: write the word natural 100 times and see
23:22 < kanzure> is that like one hand clapping
23:22 < xmj> right, what i mean.
23:22 < kanzure> now write it 1 trillion times
23:23 < fenn> xmj: uh, i was talking about aptamers or something
23:23 < fenn> not eugenics
23:23 < ebowden> Again, maybe it might detach me from what it means, but it makes absolutely no difference to how scientists and everyone else define the word. Some creationists believe that evolution is a lie, that that the sun revolves around the earth. It does not, however, make it so.
23:24 < xmj> fenn: understood
23:24 < fenn> aptamers are very clearly a _technology_ that relies on artificial selection
23:24 < xmj> fenn: "be fertile and procreate" => evidenced winning @ natural selection
23:24 < kanzure> somehow no philosophy just took a wrong turn
23:26 < fenn> ebowden: it's called semantic saturation and it's an objectively observed phenomenon. but yes i was talking about the tendency for philosophical conversations to spiral out of control and turn into self congratulatory masturbation
23:27 < fenn> sometimes i think this is just a consequence of the limited human output bandwidth
23:28 < ebowden> Fenn, It's also observed for people to start believing in the literal biblical creation, and see evolution as a lie. It is not, however, relevant to what evolution is for people who live in reality.
23:28 < kanzure> this hurts
23:28 < kanzure> have you considered hanging out with different people
23:29 < xmj> brilliant
23:29 < ebowden> Me, or fenn?
23:29 < fenn> nobody "starts believing", they are conditioned by their culture and told what to believe..
23:29 < ebowden> No, there are people who change their opinions.
23:30 < ebowden> Even if they change them to something that is beyond stupid.
23:30 < fenn> i lost the plot somewhere in this conversation.. backtracing
23:30 < xmj> funnily enough often changes in one person's opinion can be explained by changes in the person's social environment's opinion changes.
23:30 < ebowden> I can see.
23:31 < fenn> xmj: even more interesting, changes in one person's opinion can be explained by changes in their diet and bank account
23:31 < ebowden> Also, fenn, unless you define "starts believing" as something else, the statement is a little problematic.
23:32 < ebowden> Oh?
23:32 < fenn> ebowden: it's thermodynamics, memes don't come from nowhere
23:33 < xmj> fenn: oh yes
23:33 < fenn> the information is propagated. there's no spontaneous generation, not in bacteria, not in memetics.
23:33 < ebowden> People's beliefs do sometimes change gradually, yes.
23:33 < xmj> fenn: changes in bank account can turn the hardest socialist into a fullblown capitalist.
23:33 < xmj> fenn: however i'm not sure how nutrition factors into play
23:34 < ebowden> However, where the idea came from is irrelevant to whether they "started believing" it.
23:34 < fenn> xmj: speaking from personal experience, your entire worldview can radically change in less than a week by starting a 100% raw diet
23:34 < kanzure> does star formation count as spontaneous generation
23:34 < kanzure> oops -generation
23:35 < fenn> spontaneous
23:36 < ebowden> Fenn, How exactly is it known that a worldview change wasn't the cause of the diet change?
23:36 < fenn> xmj: there's also evidence that poverty directly influences cortisol levels, probably due to decision fatigue (should i get the 79 cent bananas or the 69 cent bananas)
23:36 < fenn> ebowden: because i keep good records
23:37 < xmj> fenn: i'd be interested now... what's a raw diet and how did your worldview change?
23:37 < kanzure> don't sell yourself short
23:37 < ebowden> So, is this published, pier reviewed data fenn?
23:37 < kanzure> tell them it's overwhelming records
23:37 < fenn> uhh. i don't really want to go into this
23:37 < fenn> i have better methods now anywya
23:37 < fenn> go read chris kresser
23:38 < xmj> anything specific from him?
23:38 < fenn> it's all good. probably most relevant is the methylation stuff (actually chris masterjohn is more relevant here)
23:39 < ebowden> fenn: I say this because, one can go vegetarian and suddenly be all into animal rights, but in order to convince me the vegetarian diet itself was the cause, you better have some good evidence.
23:39 < fenn> ebowden: no, this is a case of peer pressure and memetics, not what i'm talking about
23:40 < fenn> for example, i put faith in the paleo diet, but i still think eating dead animals is gross and possibly unethical
23:40 < fenn> i was vegan for 6 years but not for ethical reasons
23:40 < fenn> blah
23:41 < ebowden> So, you don't think the dietary changes in and of themselves, when separated from all else, are a large contributing factor.
23:41 < ebowden> So, you don't think the dietary changes in and of themselves, when separated from all else, are a large contributing factor?
23:42 < fenn> you know i wish this stuff weren't so complex, it would be easier to convince people if i didn't have to get them to read 15 articles about biochemistry and molecular neuroscience before my argument made any sense
23:42 < xmj> fenn: what view changed after your going paleo?
23:42 < fenn> ebowden: i certainly agree that certain dietary choices cause anxiety and us-them thinking
23:42 < xmj> apart from "CARBSBAD mkay"
23:43 < fenn> oh, i was never very good at sticking to a paleo diet
23:43 < xmj> haha
23:43 < ebowden> Well, that much could be easily empirically demonstrated fenn.
23:43 < xmj> i like paleo / keto diets, but right now i'm drinking a very sugared english breakfast tea.
23:43 < xmj> i think i know what you mean.
23:43 < fenn> right. i have no fucking clue where to get "pastured organ meats"
23:44 < xmj> whats that?
23:44 < fenn> and even if i did, those butter cookies look a whole lot tastier
23:44 < xmj> grassfed lean beef?
23:44 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ
23:44 < fenn> i have no clue man
23:44 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o ParahSailin] by kanzure
23:44 < xmj> ah
23:44 < fenn> sheep eyeballs i guess
23:45 < fenn> anyway the paleo arguments are all way better supported (actually supported) by science
23:45 < fenn> but it was the raw vegan diet that changed my perspective
23:46 < xmj> fenn: do you happen to have a list (or a wiki) listing the science support of paleo?
23:46 < xmj> i had a discussion with a vegetarian the other day and ran out of papers :(
23:46 < fenn> i'm the wrong person to talk to about this, you should ask jrayhawk when he's on
23:47 < xmj> will do
23:47 < fenn> look at westonaprice.org cholesterol-and-health.com chriskresser.com
23:47 < xmj> .tell jrayhawk hi, this is mostly  reminder to myself to ask you about scientific articles re: paleo diet.
23:47 < yoleaux> xmj: I'll pass your message to jrayhawk.
23:49 < fenn> xmj: have you ever done psychedelic drugs? (feel free to be evasive)
23:49 < fenn> also this is a publically logged channel
23:50 < fenn> the effects of "the master cleanse" (a juice fast) are similar to the effects of a low dose of LSD
23:51 < xmj> haha
23:51 < xmj> No.
23:51 < fenn> i wish i had a drug to point to that reduces paranoia and neurosis, but that was the effect of the raw food diet
23:52 < fenn> anyway, having never done psychedelics, it came as a surprise to subjectively see firsthand that one's worldview is a product of biochemistry
23:53 < xmj> paranoia and neurosis --> benzodiacepines are good for that.
23:53 < fenn> and further, that one's biochemistry is a product of one's diet
23:53 < fenn> nah, benzodiazepines just make you stupid
23:53 < xmj> that too, but they *do* reduce paranoia.
23:53 < fenn> and death cures all diseases
23:54 < xmj> you could argue life is a terminal disease.
23:54 < xmj> fenn: have you seen http://autoimmunethyroid.wordpress.com/2008/10/29/gaba-and-diy-for-bipolar-disorder/ ?
23:54 < ebowden> Oh, what's the highest ever recorded working memory?
23:54 < fenn> heh yes i have, how did you come across that?
23:54 < xmj> it's not necessarily the most accurate post from a scientific point of view, but i've been able to reproduce it.
23:54 < ebowden> Oh, fenn, what's the highest ever recorded working memory?
23:54  * xmj highfives fenn 
23:54 < fenn> ebowden: i have no idea
23:55 < xmj> fenn: i've dissected that post, and pretty much based my nutrition on that in autumn 2012 and onwards
23:55 < xmj> i do eat fish too rarely tho :(
23:55 < ebowden> By the way, even when the working memory seems overloaded, functional connectivity still increased incrementally.
23:56 < fenn> what modern psychiatry really needs is a portable and inexpensive SPECT scanner
23:57 < xmj> what would that scanner improve?
23:57 < fenn> bad diagnoses based on unscientific evidence
23:57 < fenn> "my kid lashes out at school, he's got ADHD right?"
23:57 < fenn> or whatever qualifiees as evidence these days
23:58 < xmj> parents who put their kids on ADHD drugs should in 99% of all cases be shot.
23:58 < ebowden> Fenn, with repeated FMRI neurofeedback, we might not have the problem of task specific strategies, and MIGHT be able to get demonstrable, reliable, and transferable increases in working memory capacity.
23:58 < xmj> http://phrack.org/issues/7/3.html
23:58 < xmj> maybe your kid lashes out because he's bored out in school.
23:59 < ebowden> Emphasis on MIGHT and TRANSFERABLE.
--- Log closed Sun Apr 20 00:00:17 2014