--- Log opened Thu Apr 24 00:00:10 2014
--- Day changed Thu Apr 24 2014
00:00 < xentrac> if φ(3, n, 0) = 4, then you can calculate 4 - 3 = n = 1
00:00 < xentrac> if φ(3, n, 1) = 12, then you can calculate 12 / 3 = n = 4
00:00 < xentrac> if φ(3, n, 2) = 81, then you can calculate log₃ 81 = 4
00:01 < xentrac> but it's quite difficult to come up with a general way to solve φ(a, b, c) = d
00:03 < xentrac> consider, for example, that calcjulating φ(n, 4, 2) = 81 involves instead calculating ⁴√81
00:03 < fenn> fwiw there is no general solution to even quintic polynomials
00:04 < xentrac> now there are clearly things that you have to express with loops and conditionals and mutation and so on
00:04 < xentrac> but by expressing things as algebraic formulas when you can, instead of using those more expressive and powerful constructs, you preserve more power of manipulation
00:04 < xentrac> finding zeroes of quintic polynomials is not particularly hard; you just can't do it with an equation
00:05 < xentrac> you need an algorithm instead
00:05 < xentrac> but there are lots of other things you can do with quintic polynomials that you can't do with general algorithms
00:05 < fenn> this isn't selling me on equations
00:06 < xentrac> heh
00:06 < fenn> your solutions for n explained what the ackerman function does a lot better than the wikipedia article did, though
00:07 < xentrac> it's basically the same thing that you were saying earlier about web pages
00:07 < xentrac> when a web page is expressed sufficiently abstractly, it's easy to manipulate it to appear as, for example, white text on a dark gray background
00:08 < xentrac> but when it's expressed with inline images replacing some of the text, you lose that manipulability
00:09 < xentrac> similarly when you express a relationship between some variables with an equation, instead of an algorithm to compute one of them from the others, you retain the ability to solve for any of the variables (with more or less difficulty: as you point out, quintics and above don't have closed-form equational solutions, but even the general closed-form solution for quartics is extremely fucking hairy)
00:10 < xentrac> so you should use the less expressive, but more manipulable, representation when you can
00:10 < fenn> why is "code" necessarily an algorithm?
00:11 < xentrac> well, I've been talking about code in Turing-complete languages as the alternative to equations
00:11 < fenn> parameters are undefined until a function is called
00:12 < xentrac> as to whether it's easier to read Q = 2 \pi \sqrt{V (\frac{L'} {S})^3} or
00:12 < xentrac>           ______
00:12 < xentrac>          /   L
00:12 < xentrac> Q = 2π \/ V (-)³
00:12 < xentrac>              S
00:12 < fenn> oh, of course it's harder to read when it's full of escape codes
00:12 < xentrac> I suspect that it's largely a matter of familiarity
00:13 < xentrac> escape codes?
00:13 < xentrac> you can name your functions without backslashes and use parens instead of {} if you like, I don't think it makes much difference
00:13 < fenn> but i would write Q = 2 * pi * sqrt(V * L_prime/S)^3
00:13 < xentrac> I was addressing your earlier point about
00:14 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
00:14 < xentrac> "hieroglyphics"
00:15 < fenn> it still leaves unresolved what is pi and what is sqrt and how is L related to L_prime
00:15 < fenn> but at least i can type it into an irc channel
00:15 < fenn> or a python console
00:15 < xentrac> right
00:16 < fenn> oh i missed a )
00:16 < fenn> too busy trying to decipher the \frac notation
00:17 < fenn> why does tex mix () and {}
00:17 < xentrac> () get typeset
00:17 < xentrac> {} is just for grouping
00:17 < fenn> ... and now i'm thinking (there's a difference?)
00:18 < fenn> because that's a typesetting markup, not code
00:18 < xentrac> yes
00:19 < xentrac> hmm, I should really leave the office
00:19 < fenn> i'd also argue that equations are a historical artifact of typesetting that has nothing to do with whether it's analytical form or algorithm
00:19 < fenn> move into your desk, save the planet!
00:19 < xmj> xentrac: i find latex-ish equations easy to read
00:24 < xentrac> I really think the serialization format is one of the less important things about them
00:24 < fenn> but it's the one that causes the most grief
00:24 < xentrac> the serialization of equations is a historical artifact of writing by hand instead of keyboard
00:25 < xentrac> I have a similar notation for algorithms when I write them on paper
00:25 < xentrac> x | y for "while (x) y"
00:25 < xentrac> xs | f(x)  for "for x in xs: f(x)"
00:26 < xentrac> x  |
00:27 < xentrac>  a | b for "if (a) b; else c;"
00:27 < xentrac>    |
00:27 < xentrac> oops
00:27 < xentrac> left out the c
00:28 < xentrac> f x  for "def f(x):"
00:29 < fenn> isnt x | y the same as a | b
00:29 < xentrac> k x y for "class k: def __init__(self, x, y): self.x = x; self.y = y"
00:29 < xentrac> ---------
00:29 < xentrac> no, the a | b one has a horizontal line underneath it
00:30 < fenn> heh "k x y" is some semantic sugar i wouldn't mind
00:30 < xentrac> and I use funky hieroglyphs and Greek letters for variables instead of entire words that I have to write out each time
00:30 < xentrac> yeah, a double underline is a lot easier to write in my notebook than the word "class"
00:30 < fenn> it's nice to be able to specify default values tho
00:32 < fenn> so i write a lot of stuff in my log books, but i use long form because i know i'm going to type it in eventually
00:32 < fenn> i could use some shorthand but i know i'll forget what it means
00:32 < xentrac> hmm I think I was using @x for self.x at some point
00:32 < xentrac> I should go back and formalize that notation
00:32 < fenn> @ is self.a :P
00:33 < xentrac> yeah, but I mean
00:33 < xentrac> k @x @y (doubleunderline)
00:33 < xentrac> by putting self.x (@x) in the parameter list itself, I'm implicitly assigning to self.x
00:34 < xentrac> but maybe that's not really necessary
00:34 < fenn> if you're using both x and self.x you're probably doing something wrong
00:34 < xentrac> yeah
00:35 < xentrac> I just mean, is it worthwhile being explicit about storing variables for later use?
00:35 < fenn> "Be liberal in what you require but conservative in what you do"
00:35 < fenn> this is more of what i was going for
00:35 < xentrac> because it's kind of an important semantic clue to intent
00:36 < xentrac> okay now I really am going to go home
00:36 < xentrac> I was really going to go to bed before 5 AM
00:36 < xentrac> fail
00:36 < fenn> g'night, and good luck
00:36 < xentrac> you too
00:45 < fenn> huh, weird. "In her talk The Science of Insecurity, Meredith Patterson makes the point that the principle of least power is important for security of interfaces which may be exposed to attack."
00:46 < fenn> i always thought "principle of least power" in a security context meant you rescind privileges not required for the task at hand, guess it's more abstract than that
00:47 < fenn> .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEfedtQVOY
00:47 < yoleaux> 28c3: The Science of Insecurity
00:49 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:49 -!- agentsmith2 [agentsmith@cpe-75-80-110-69.socal.res.rr.com] has quit []
00:51 < fenn> wow look at that moon
01:04 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
01:07 -!- augur [~augur@pool-71-178-143-33.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:08 -!- Vutral_ [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
01:19 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
01:21 -!- Vutral [~ss@31.7.56.131] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:21 -!- Vutral [~ss@31.7.56.131] has quit [Changing host]
01:21 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:29 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:30 -!- Vutral [~ss@31.7.56.131] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:31 -!- Vutral [~ss@31.7.56.131] has quit [Changing host]
01:31 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:38 -!- mosasaur [~mosasaur@95.99.48.20] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:09 < archels> ``especially since this year seems to be the "Deep Learning is Eating Everyone's Lunch" year''
02:09 < archels> -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7638163
02:18 -!- Vutral_ [~ss@vutral.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:43 -!- chido [chidori@pasky.or.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:43 -!- chido [chidori@pasky.or.cz] has quit [Client Quit]
02:47 -!- kyknos_ [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
03:00 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.42] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:03 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.42] has quit [Client Quit]
03:09 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:11 < fenn> i wrote some notes about steamrollering the web: http://fennetic.net/irc/ontological_assimilator
03:13 < ebowden> What do you mean by steamrollering?
03:14 < fenn> see the logs
03:14 < archels> "ontological warfare" haha wat
03:16 < ebowden> Ah,ok.
03:16 < ebowden> Ah, ok.
03:16 < ebowden> Got it from the notes you linked anyway.
03:17 < archels> fenn: it seems more like a presentational layer, can you really call it an ontology?
03:18 < fenn> unfortunately i've mixed in some presentation layer stuff in order to explain what you do with the data you've collected
03:19 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:20 < archels> it would be great if you could get this thing to parse PDFs
03:20 < fenn> yes that is intended
03:21 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:21 < fenn> i want to parse machinery's handbook and distill all those godawful scanned tables down into a few sets of preferred numbers and some formulae
03:22 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has quit [Client Quit]
03:22 < fenn> or CRC handbook of chemistry for an equivalent example
03:25 -!- mosasaur [~mosasaur@95.99.48.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
03:25 < fenn> i'm worried that there will be a lot of manual "elvi" creation
03:25 < fenn> surely there is some teach by example software out there, anyway, time for bed
03:28 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
03:28 -!- Vutral [~ss@31.7.56.131] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:28 < archels> what's elvi?
03:28 -!- Vutral [~ss@31.7.56.131] has quit [Changing host]
03:28 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:36 < ebowden> Archels, kanzure, fenn, ParahSailin, a really cool flavonoid, and a cooler still derivative: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3150605/pdf/nihms-253216.pdf, http://dc.etsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1027&context=honors, http://www.pnas.org/content/107/6/2687.full.pdf, http://www.spandidos-publications.com/or/28/1/353/download;jsessionid=92BA2F8CEE487289B404AB1AA9EDA422
03:38 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
03:38 -!- Vutral [~ss@31.7.56.131] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:38 -!- Vutral [~ss@31.7.56.131] has quit [Changing host]
03:38 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:43 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
03:44 -!- Vutral_ [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Excess Flood]
03:46 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:46 < archels> "nobody will watch your TED talk if your sense of optimism is grounded in reality"
03:47 < ebowden> LOL
03:47 < ebowden> Where's that from?
03:53 < archels> https://www.usenix.org/system/files/1403_02-08_mickens.pdf
03:55 < ebowden> Thanks.
03:55 -!- mosasaur [~mosasaur@178.228.118.57] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:56 -!- augur_ [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:58 < ebowden> Ok, this is hilarious, loving it so far.
03:59 -!- augur [~augur@pool-71-178-143-33.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
04:25 -!- QuadIngi [~fourfire@233-238-15.connect.netcom.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:27 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:28 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
04:35 -!- Adifex|zzz is now known as Adifex
04:37 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
04:42 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:45 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:59 -!- chido [chidori@pasky.or.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:59 -!- chido [chidori@pasky.or.cz] has quit [Client Quit]
05:36 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@179.126.69.68] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:36 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@117.254.217.119] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:41 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-134-46-4.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:43 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
05:44 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:50 < ebowden> paperbot: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/2012/CP/c2cp42174g#!divAbstract
05:51 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Cross-talk%20between%20amino%20acid%20residues%20and%20flavonoid%20derivatives%3A%20insights%20into%20their%20chemical%20recognition.pdf
05:54 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
05:54 < kanzure> https://inventropy.us/blog/is-killing-patents-just-plain-fun/
05:54 < kanzure> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7638099
05:54 < kanzure> "There is no incentive for them to stop granting bad patents."
05:55 < kanzure> "The author thinks he is "helping" the USPTO - to stop bad patents. But he is doing nothing of the sort. The USPTO are part of the problem. Do you really think that you can strike down a bad patent by simply sending some links for prior art to the USPTO ? Someone who applies for a patent must pay a fee to have it examined by an expert. I'm pretty sure that they're going to have to spend some time re-examining the patent and the new material ...
05:55 < kanzure> ... to decide if it's relevant or not. I don't think that's going to be free."
05:56 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:56 < ebowden> "Am I evil, or is killing patents just plain fun?"
05:57 < ebowden> For a second, I thought it said:
05:57 < ebowden> "Am I evil, or is killing patients just plain fun?"
05:59 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@95.5.71.53] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:59 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@95.5.71.53] has quit [Changing host]
05:59 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:10 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
06:15 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:16 -!- Lemminkainen [uid2346@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lxjgcbfktqsfuzlh] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
06:20 -!- ParahSailin [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
06:21 -!- ParahSailin [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:24 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@117.254.217.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
06:28 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@179.126.69.68] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]
06:33 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:34 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:38 < xmj> metoo
06:38 < xmj> i read that comment before / while drinking the first cup of coffee
06:40 < ebowden> Ah.
06:43 < ebowden> Oh, xmj, I'm not sure if I've already asked you this, but what things do you do? :D
06:49 < xmj> elaborate...?
06:49 < ebowden> Oh, back.
06:51 < ebowden> Well, I don't do much of anything, accepting pretending to know things about neuroactive phytochemicals, so I mostly lurk here.
06:51 < xmj> how do you earn your living?
06:51 < ebowden> *except
06:51 < ebowden> I'm still in my last year of high school.
06:51 < cluckj> who is your daddy and what does he do?
06:51 < xmj> Ah!
06:52 < ebowden> LOL
06:53 < ebowden> My mother is the executive officer of the Tasmanian Acquired Brain Injury Service, and my father is a 72 year old impressionist artist, Jonathan Ambrose Bowden, who mainly works with pastels.
06:54 < xmj> interesting
06:54 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
06:54 < cluckj> lol
06:54 < xmj> ebowden: seriously: out of highschool, no one gives a damn what your parents do
06:54 < xmj> unless they're loaded.
06:54 < ebowden> I know.
06:54 < xmj> then for appearences sake
06:55 < ebowden> And my dad certainly isn't.
06:55 < ebowden> (My dad has been through too many divorces to be loaded.)
06:56 < xmj> haha
06:57 < xmj> Don't let yourself get divorce-raped - don't marry in the first place.
06:57 < xmj> But that only as an aside.
06:57 < ebowden> I don't plan on it, I assure you.
06:57 < xmj> Marrying, or getting divorce-raped?
06:57 < ebowden> Either, at this point.
07:02 < ebowden> It's funny, my grandfather was a scientist among the first to see the applications of PTFE in bearings and coatings(He thought teflon pans were a horrid idea due to off-gassing), but my father hated science.
07:02 < ebowden> *scientist, among
07:02 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:03 < cluckj> teflon pans are dope as hell
07:04 < ebowden> They are.
07:04 < ebowden> Just dangerous.
07:05 < ebowden> (Especially to idiots.)
07:07 < ebowden> The PTFE off-gasses under conditions commonly encountered in normal use of a pan in many households.
07:10 -!- Shehrazad [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:11 < xmj> ebowden: i earn my living as bytepusher
07:11 < xmj> for fun i hack on UNIX
07:11 < ebowden> Ah, ok.
07:11 < xmj> ParahSailin: mentioned it had nice decent smart people in here
07:11 < xmj> not convinced about nice nor decent
07:12 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
07:12 < ebowden> Hack, as in, use it for something other than it's original purpose?
07:12 < ebowden> LOL
07:12 < cluckj> pick 3 out of 4
07:13 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
07:14 < ebowden> But yeah cluckj, he knew from experience that a lot of people don't follow important safety instructions, especially in things where the dangers have not been highlighted by some deaths and cases of illness.
07:14 < cluckj> yeah
07:14 < cluckj> lots of birds died from teflon pans that got too hot and gassed
07:15 < xmj> ebowden: these days i'm member of the freebsd development team so let's relativize the 'original purpose' a bit :D
07:15 < ebowden> :D
07:15 < eudoxia> i thought freebsd was pretty cool when i tried it
07:16 < xmj> it is
07:16 < ebowden> Cluckj, what? I haven't heard of bird deaths linked to that.
07:16 < cluckj> oh
07:16 < cluckj> pet birds are really sensitive to teflon off-gassing
07:17 < xmj> meh
07:17 < xmj> cluckj: You can't make any decent food in teflon pans anyway
07:17 < ebowden> I do prefer iron.
07:18 < xmj> cast!
07:18 < ebowden> Yes.
07:18 < ebowden> I do prefer cast iron.
07:18 < cluckj> no way, I have a teflon crepe pan that is magic
07:18 < xmj> what's magic about it?
07:18 < cluckj> ...nothing sticks to it?
07:18 < xmj> dude
07:19 < xmj> nothing sticks to a well-used cast-iron pan either
07:19 < cyberman> my teflon pot is so slick it slides off the burner
07:19 < cluckj> lol
07:20 < ebowden> LOL
07:20 < cluckj> you can't use the cast iron for everything
07:20 < ebowden> I wonder if they sell DLC coated pots.
07:20 < ebowden> DLC is diamond like carbon.
07:21 < ebowden> *diamond-like
07:23 < cluckj> the problem with cast iron is that to get nothing to stick to it, you have to heat it up to the right temperature
07:23 < cluckj> for delicate or thin things like crepes, that's too hot
07:24 < ebowden> LOL: http://news-hound.us/a-tattoo-artists-revenge-on-his-cheating-girlfriend-poop-tattoo/
07:26 < ebowden> So, in other words, if you have it too hot, it all goes to, well, that girl's tattoo.
07:26 < ebowden> Is that right?
07:26 < cluckj> lol
07:26 < cluckj> ya
07:27 < cluckj> I don't really use teflon pans for much of anything else
07:27 < ebowden> Also, that is the most hilarious getting-back-at-cheating-partner story I've ever heard.
07:28 < ebowden> Ah, ok cluckj.
07:28 < ebowden> It was a whole back tattoo as well.
07:29 < ebowden> A big pile of poo with flies buzzing around it.
07:29 < ebowden> *whole-back
07:29 < cluckj> seems harsh
07:30 < ebowden> It was with his oldest friend.
07:30 < ebowden> And it was hilarious.
07:33 < ebowden> Oh, one of the comments:
07:33 < ebowden> "revenge is a dish best served steaming."
07:33 < ebowden> :D
07:36 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@cm113.kappa36.maxonline.com.sg] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:36 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@cm113.kappa36.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Changing host]
07:36 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:38 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:58 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@179.126.69.68] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:03 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@117.254.223.130] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:04 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
08:05 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:39 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
08:47 -!- mosasaur [~mosasaur@178.228.118.57] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
08:52 -!- Vutral [~ss@176.10.107.229] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:52 -!- Vutral [~ss@176.10.107.229] has quit [Changing host]
08:52 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:57 -!- fireprfHydra [~fireprfHy@pool-173-70-216-225.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:58 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:59 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
09:18 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:23 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
09:24 -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r190-134-46-4.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:25 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-134-46-4.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
09:30 -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r190-134-46-4.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving]
09:30 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-134-46-4.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:36 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:38 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@179.126.69.68] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]
09:41 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
09:43 -!- Darius [~quassel@adsl-69-231-35-194.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:44 < kanzure> there should be a c2.com except for hardware things
09:44 < kanzure> http://gowers.wordpress.com/2014/04/24/elsevier-journals-some-facts/
09:44 < kanzure> "Instead, they waited for things to settle down, and now, two years later, the main problems, bundling and exorbitant prices, continue unabated: in 2013, Elsevier’s profit margin was up to 39%. (The profit is a little over £800 million on a little over £2 billion.) As for the boycott, the number of signatories appears to have reached a plateau of about 14,500."
09:47 < kanzure> http://tqft.net/mlp/wiki/The_Mathematics_Literature_Project "The Mathematics Literature Project intends to survey the state of the freely accessible mathematics literature. In particular, it will index freely accessible URLs for mathematics articles. These are legitimately hosted copies of the article (i.e. at publishers, the arXiv, institutional repositories, or authors' homepages), which are freely available in any browser, anywhere in the ...
09:47 < kanzure> ... world."
09:55 < kanzure> http://www.daniellesucher.com/2014/04/24/my-new-favorite-vim-tmux-bug/
09:56 -!- fireprfHydra [~fireprfHy@pool-173-70-216-225.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
10:02 -!- fireprfHydra [~fireprfHy@pool-173-70-216-225.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:07 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-frqouifldefemxha] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:23 -!- Vutral [~ss@176.10.107.229] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:26 -!- Vutral [~ss@176.10.107.229] has quit [Changing host]
10:26 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:31 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
10:31 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-134-46-4.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving]
10:35 -!- Vutral [~ss@176.10.107.229] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:36 -!- Vutral [~ss@176.10.107.229] has quit [Changing host]
10:36 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:53 -!- fireprfHydra_ [~fireprfHy@pool-173-70-216-225.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:53 -!- fireprfHydra [~fireprfHy@pool-173-70-216-225.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
11:01 -!- fireprfHydra [~fireprfHy@pool-173-70-216-225.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:04 -!- fireprfHydra_ [~fireprfHy@pool-173-70-216-225.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
11:10 -!- Darius [~quassel@adsl-69-231-35-194.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
11:41 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:46 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:49 -!- fireprfHydra_ [~fireprfHy@pool-173-70-216-225.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:52 -!- fireprfHydra [~fireprfHy@pool-173-70-216-225.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
12:01 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
12:01 -!- fireprfHydra_ [~fireprfHy@pool-173-70-216-225.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
12:02 < entelechios> kanzure: tmux/vim sure can act funny in certain terminals
12:08 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ybszwnvfjexstzpx] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
12:10 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-unuwfzltvlwczptx] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:12 -!- streety [streety@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:ded6] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
12:13 -!- streety [streety@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:ded6] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:17 -!- Darius [~quassel@66-215-80-36.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:21 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
12:24 -!- Vutral [~ss@176.10.107.229] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:24 -!- Vutral [~ss@176.10.107.229] has quit [Changing host]
12:24 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:25 -!- Lemminkainen [uid2346@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ppwjtcerggvtlcbf] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:26 -!- Shehrazad [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:26 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:32 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:34 -!- Vutral [~ss@176.10.107.229] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:34 -!- Vutral [~ss@176.10.107.229] has quit [Changing host]
12:34 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:36 < kanzure> race conditions everywhere
12:37 < ParahSailin> oh yeah, i think thats why i use screen
12:37 < ParahSailin> its the cursor hopping around thing right?
12:38 < kanzure> the article is describing a worse bug
12:39 -!- fireprfHydra [~fireprfHy@pool-173-70-216-225.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:42 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:43 < kanzure> http://www.bio-protocol.org/ seems to be another protocol site
12:43 < kanzure> "single worm PCR" http://www.bio-protocol.org/wenzhang.aspx?id=60#.U1lpZFRDs-M
12:44 < kanzure> "Mitochondrial Isolation and Purification from Mouse Spinal Cord" http://www.bio-protocol.org/wenzhang.aspx?id=961#.U1lpmlRDs-M
12:44 < kanzure> well, it's not empty at least
12:45 < kanzure> "Bio-protocol is efficient. Bio-protocol runs well on a very low budget. Our team is made up almost entirely of junior-level researchers, i.e. post-docs and junior faculty members. This has two benefits, 1) it keeps our costs low, and 2) junior-level researchers are very active at the bench and therefore, often the best equipped to evaluate protocol need and quality."
12:45 < kanzure> hehehe post-docs are considered junior :)
12:47 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:48 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
12:56 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
13:09 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:21 -!- fireprfHydra [~fireprfHy@pool-173-70-216-225.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
13:25 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:28 -!- Darius [~quassel@66-215-80-36.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
13:35 < kanzure> some biology preprint server thing http://biorxiv.org/collection/
13:59 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
14:02 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-unuwfzltvlwczptx] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
14:08 < fenn> guyz how do i h4ck teh weefees
14:10 < Viper168_> with your butt
14:25 < nmz787_i> fenn: i only know that WEP is easy to do
14:26 < nmz787_i> fenn:  i've tried WPA, but haven't had success (I may have stopping trying too early)
14:26 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:26 < nmz787_i> fenn: aircrack-ng
14:33 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@117.254.223.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
14:41 < kanzure> i've been meaning to use firesheep
14:42 < kanzure> .title https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20140424-early-life-in-death-valley/
14:42 < yoleaux> Ancient Fossils Suggest Complex Life Evolved on Land
14:44 < kanzure> i don't know what this is, but it has strange icon-style graphics http://brikis98.blogspot.com/2014/04/bitcoin-by-analogy.html
15:25 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:27 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood]
15:34 < kanzure> this person claims to work at sage and that "i am not a dinosaur" but who knows https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7642944
15:35 < kanzure> "Throwing this out there for anyone working on a startup in the academic journal space. I'm on the board of SAGE Publications, which is (depending on how you count), the 5th or so largest publisher in the space. See this diagram for where SAGE fits: http://www.oii.ox.ac.uk/vis/images/?src=4e3c02ab/journal_publishers.png "
15:35 < kanzure> "If you’re doing a startup in this space and want to reach out, please contact me. I live in SF and would happily take you out for coffee or meet up for a beer. My contact details are on my HN profile. SAGE is a 100% family owned business. My grandmother is chairwoman, my dad and I are on the board. I'm a coder working in an unrelated startup for my day job, living in SF. We’re not dinosaurs trying to bleed the system dry until our ...
15:35 < kanzure> ... business model collapses, but at the same time I wholeheartedly acknowledge the fundamentals of the journals business are antiquated and I believe they will radically change eventually. Academia is incredibly complicated and moves at a glacial pace. So if you’re interested in seeing the world of academic journals from the inside, please get in touch. I can get you in contact with anyone in the SAGE organization at every level."
15:35 < kanzure> user is https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=dougmccune
15:38 -!- Darius [~quassel@198-188-4-4.pasadena.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:49 -!- Darius_ [~quassel@198-188-4-4.pasadena.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:50 -!- Darius [~quassel@198-188-4-4.pasadena.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
15:52 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:55 < kanzure> someone stalking blackmarkets online https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/280585369/2014-04-24-blackmarkettable-draft.html
15:58 -!- Darius_ [~quassel@198-188-4-4.pasadena.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
16:00 < kanzure> hmm i wonder how trustable this video is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBh2LxTW0s0 "I have had Deep Brain Stimulation Surgery for Parkinson's Disease, and this is what happens when I turn off my neurostimulator."
16:00 < kanzure> oh that quote is from parijata. i wonder what she's been up to.
16:04 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.129.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
16:04 < kanzure> "More than 100,000 people around the world have undergone DBS since it was first approved, in the 1990s, for the treatment of movement disorders. Today, besides providing relief for people with Parkinson’s disease, dystonia (characterized by involuntary muscle contractions) and essential tremor (Haning’s problem), DBS has been shown to be effective against Tourette’s syndrome, with its characteristic tics, and obsessive-compulsive ...
16:04 < kanzure> ... disorder. Add to that a wave of ongoing research into DBS’s promise as a treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder and other neuropsychiatric conditions, as well as early signs that it may improve memory in Alzheimer’s patients."
16:05 < kanzure> "As co-directors of the UF Center for Movement Disorders and Neurorestoration, Foote and neurologist Michael Okun are at the forefront of the DBS field, refining operating techniques and establishing a rigorous standard of care that attracts patients from around the country and the world. Since teaming up at UF in 2002, Okun and Foote have done nearly 1,000 DBS procedures together and grown their two-man effort into an interdisciplinary ...
16:05 < kanzure> ... program with more than 40 staffers, including eight neurologists, a psychiatrist, a neuropsychologist and physical, speech and occupational therapists."
16:05 < kanzure> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/inside-science-amazing-new-surgery-called-deep-brain-stimulation-180951170/?all
16:07 < kanzure> "In the past, Okun explains, the big debate in the field was whether DBS worked by inhibiting abnormal circuits or exciting other brain activity. Both sides ended up being right: The neurons closest to the implanted leads are inhibited by the electrical current, while axons leading away from the targeted cells are stimulated. In addition to these changes, says Okun, in the last few years we’ve learned that DBS also alters brain chemistry ...
16:07 < kanzure> ... and blood flow, and even leads to the growth of new brain cells."
16:07 < kanzure> hm, curious that there are numbers on how many patients have deep brain stimulation implants
16:08 < kanzure> and also that they claim to have 1% of the market
16:16 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:17 < kanzure> paperbot: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=6714610
16:17 < kanzure> "Three-Dimensional Transcranial Ultrasound Imaging of Microbubble Clouds Using a Sparse Hemispherical Array"
16:17 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1109%2FTBME.2014.2300838
16:18 < kanzure> "Passive acoustic mapping could offer a means for spatially monitoring microbubble emissions that relate to bubble activity [from bubble-mediated focused ultrasound (FUS) interventions in the brain]. In this study, a hemispherical receiver array was integrated within an existing transcranial therapy array to create a device capable of both delivering therapy and monitoring the process via passive imaging of bubble clouds. A 128-element ...
16:18 < kanzure> ... receiver array was constructed and characterized for varying bubble concentrations and source spacings."
16:18 -!- entelechios [~elysium@186.176.28.244] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:19 < ParahSailin> http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/21/us/hawaii-plane-stowaway/
16:19 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
16:20 < QuadIngi> ""I have had Deep Brain Stimulation Surgery for Parkinson's Disease, and this is what happens when I turn off my neurostimulator."" Oh Kanzure i saw that a while back, spoke to the guy
16:20 < entelechios> lol that poor kid just wanted to go back to somalia of all places in the world
16:20 < ParahSailin> hes got a good career as a sherpa ahead of him
16:20 < kanzure> paperbot: http://scitation.aip.org/content/aapm/journal/medphys/40/8/10.1118/1.4812423
16:20 < kanzure> "Influence of the pressure field distribution in transcranial ultrasonic neurostimulation"
16:20 < entelechios> paperbot works again?
16:20 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Influence%20of%20the%20pressure%20field%20distribution%20in%20transcranial%20ultrasonic%20neurostimulation.txt
16:20 < entelechios> i was using some russian website
16:20 < kanzure> "The primary goal of this paper is to investigate transcranial ultrasonic neurostimulation at low frequency (320 kHz) on anesthetized rats for different acoustic pressures and estimate thein situ pressure field distribution and the corresponding motor threshold, if any."
16:21 < QuadIngi> it's very borky to just put some power on it though :/
16:21 < QuadIngi> I look at current medical technology and a lot of it seems like cheap hacks
16:21 < QuadIngi> inelegant
16:22 < kanzure> "everal kinds of motor responses were observed: movements of the tail, the hind legs, the forelimbs, the eye, and even a single whisker were induced separately. Numerical simulations of an equivalent experiment with identical acoustic parameters showed that the acoustic field was spread over the whole rat brain with the presence of several secondary pressure peaks."
16:22 -!- nsh is now known as [off|
16:24 -!- [off| is now known as [arff]
16:24 < kanzure> "Here, we gauged the ability of noninvasive FUS to causally modulate high-level cognitive behavior. Therefore, we examined how FUS might interfere with prefrontal activity in two awake macaque rhesus monkeys that had been trained to perform an antisaccade (AS) task. We show that ultrasound significantly modulated AS latencies."
16:24 < kanzure> "Such effects proved to be dependent on FUS hemifield of stimulation (relative latency increases most for ipsilateral AS). These results are interpreted in terms of a modulation of saccade inhibition to the contralateral visual field due to the disruption of processing across the frontal eye fields. Our study demonstrates for the first time the feasibility of using FUS stimulation to causally modulate behavior in the awake nonhuman primate ...
16:24 < kanzure> ... brain."
16:24 < kanzure> was from http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982213012700
16:26 -!- [arff] is now known as muslamba
16:26 -!- muslamba is now known as nsh
16:26 < kanzure> ebowden will like "Drug delivery across the blood–brain barrier using focused ultrasound
16:27 < kanzure> sigh javascript copypaste spam
16:27 < ParahSailin> tynt?
16:28 < kanzure> http://informahealthcare.com/templates/jsp/js/oncopy.js
16:29 < kanzure> <!--[if IE 6]><link href="/templates/jsp/_style2/_ashley/ie6.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css"/><![endif]-->
16:30 < ParahSailin> dang thats evil, it used to be that all the js copypaste spam was hosted on external domains that one could blackhole with hosts file
16:32 < kanzure> grg.org is claiming their site is going down since they can't pay their bills
16:37 -!- realzies [~pinky@unaffiliated/realazthat] has quit [Quit: realzies]
16:43 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:52 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
16:59 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:02 -!- kyknos_ [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:05 < streety> the design of that site is almost impressively dated
17:07 -!- QuadIngi [~fourfire@233-238-15.connect.netcom.no] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"]
17:10 -!- QuadIngi [~fourfire@233-238-15.connect.netcom.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:10 -!- QuadIngi is now known as ButaTine
17:10 -!- ButaTine [~fourfire@233-238-15.connect.netcom.no] has left ##hplusroadmap []
17:12 < kanzure> http://www.wired.com/2014/04/darkmarket/
17:13 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-48-173-76.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:18 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:26 < fenn> is there something wrong with the way informahealthcare.com is implemented?
17:26 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:31 < kanzure> it inserts spam into your paste buffer
17:33 < fenn> so, with the whole "user agent" model of the browser, why is it some sites are able to block right-click or whatever?
17:34 < fenn> is that just an implementation flaw?
17:34 < fenn> i can't think of any reason a site would legitimately need to know when i am copying text from it
17:36 < kanzure> http://openopenssl.org/
17:37 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:41 < kanzure> ugh i need a stimulopedia brain map thing
17:41 < fenn> "The Libre: The Free of SSL" is a pretty awkward name
17:42 < entelechios> it reminds me of 'MANOS: THE HANDS OF FATE'
17:42 < fenn> LAVOS: THE DAY OF RECKONING
17:42 < kanzure> http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/lib/libssl/src/ssl/
17:42 < kanzure> openbsd is still on cvs? really?
17:42 < fenn> *facepalm*
17:42 < fenn> well, it's "stable"
17:42 < ParahSailin> openbsd still has no ssl web server?
17:43 < entelechios> yeah they are
17:43 < entelechios> you get patches down manually and everything
17:43 < entelechios> it's fucking funny
17:43 < kanzure> hold on let me connect my MUD client to get the patches
17:43 < entelechios> i had to patch openbsd boxes for this whole thing and
17:43 < entelechios> well
17:43 < entelechios> it was a lot more time consuming than it needed to be
17:43 < entelechios> oh yeah and they also keep the version of builtin apache before the new license
17:43 < entelechios> so like
17:43 < entelechios> 2002 vintage or some shit in the base install
17:44 < entelechios> i think i heard tell of them switching to nginx but
17:44 < entelechios> seriously
17:44 < eudoxia> i think there are two openbsd sites and one has ssl
17:44 < eudoxia> but they look exactly alike
17:45 < entelechios> i still appreciate their approach
17:45 < fenn> random image of the cvs server? http://www.openbsd.org/images/rack2009.jpg
17:45 < entelechios> they test on crappy olden architectures because it helps them uncover bugs that they dont find by keeping it to a more limited amount of archs
17:46 < kanzure> "Misuse of the FDA's humanitarian device exemption in deep brain stimulation for obsessive-compulsive disorder"
17:46 < entelechios> thats all in theo de raadt's garage in calgary
17:46 < entelechios> but
17:46 < eudoxia> oh so that's where they test openbsd
17:46 < kanzure> http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/DeviceRegulationandGuidance/HowtoMarketYourDevice/PremarketSubmissions/HumanitarianDeviceExemption/
17:46 < entelechios> what gets me is that theo insists on living in calgary and then ran into a near budget shortfall
17:46 < entelechios> i mean they did manage to scrape together but
17:46 < entelechios> alberta power prices are fucking expensive as hell
17:46 < fenn> is calgary expensive?
17:46 < kanzure> "To obtain approval for an HUD, an humanitarian device exemption (HDE) application is submitted to FDA. An HDE is similar in both form and content to a premarket approval (PMA) application, but is exempt from the effectiveness requirements of a PMA. An HDE application is not required to contain the results of scientifically valid clinical investigations demonstrating that the device is effective for its intended purpose."
17:46 < entelechios> everyones all brainwashed by oil out there
17:47 < entelechios> and thats what the operating cost reportedly was partly
17:47 < entelechios> ...electricity
17:47 < entelechios> in stupid ass alberta
17:47 < entelechios> he could move to vancouver and slash that bill so much
17:47 < fenn> humanitarian device.. hmm. what is this exemption intended for?
17:47 < fenn> guillotines?
17:47 < entelechios> seriously like i'd be paying 1/5th of the price on my power bill in BC
17:47 < kanzure> "An Humanitarian Use Device (HUD) is a device that is intended to benefit patients by treating or diagnosing a disease or condition that affects or is manifested in fewer than 4,000 individuals in the United States per year. A device manufacturer`s research and development costs could exceed its market returns for diseases or conditions affecting small patient populations."
17:47 < kanzure> <4k users
17:48 < fenn> well, duh
17:48 < kanzure> can you just register a thousand different "humanitarian devices" and get 4 million users?
17:49 < fenn> "this is for people with brain cancer and whose name begins with the letters 'ab'"
17:49 < kanzure> ah, here's a list of current exemptions (?) http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/ProductsandMedicalProcedures/DeviceApprovalsandClearances/HDEApprovals/ucm161827.htm
17:49 < fenn> undetectable secret homeopathic brain cancer I mean
17:50 < entelechios> okay, battery is drained. laters
17:51 < fenn> kanzure: "The Argus® II Retinal Prosthesis System is intended for patients aged 25 years and older" haha sucker
17:51 < fenn> no retina for you
17:54 < kanzure> "Acticon™Neosphincter" "For the treatment of severe fecal incontinence in post-pubescent males and females who have failed, or are not candidates for, less invasive forms of restorative therapy."
17:54 < fenn> how the hell does a deep brain stimulator get through with zero testing
17:54 -!- entelechios [~elysium@186.176.28.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
17:56 < kanzure> more approvals: http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/ProductsandMedicalProcedures/DeviceApprovalsandClearances/PMAApprovals/ucm392346.htm
17:56 < kanzure> oh, these might not be qualified for the humanitarian exemption
17:57 < kanzure> "Approval for an alternate welding process" wtf
17:57 < kanzure> "Contract laboratory change."
17:57 < kanzure> gah i regret even looking
17:57 < fenn> yeah all this is just "we notified the FDA"
18:01 < cpopell> met a guy who had a patent for a method of drawing collagen into ligaments for spinal repair tonight
18:03 < fenn> what was the method?
18:04 < cpopell> didn't come up, wasn't a science meetup but a business one, and other people were talking to him
18:05 < fenn> so, how did you know he wasn't deluded or full of shit?
18:05 < fenn> "trust me, i'm a patent attorney"
18:05 < eudoxia> probably had the right nerd cred
18:05 < kanzure> i'm sure his claim that he has a patent is correct
18:05 < kanzure> but that itself can be sort of boring
18:06 < fenn> it's easy to verify that, but not so easy to verify that the method actually works
18:06 < Lemminkainen> you can patent a method with 0.1% efficacy
18:06 < Lemminkainen> but it'll never mean shit for the clinic at that rate
18:06 < fenn> do they even check if it works at all? why not 0% efficacy?
18:06 < Lemminkainen> best case exit there is to sell the IP to someone who wants to sit on it
18:07 < Lemminkainen> USPTO has no way of checking methods like that, it's all on claims and substantiated data
18:07 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
18:07 < cpopell> it sounded like he had gotten a grant to work on getting it through trials
18:07 < cpopell> but discussion passed to other stuff
18:07 < Lemminkainen> hahahaha grants for trials
18:07 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/324/5927/643.short
18:07 < kanzure> .title
18:07 < yoleaux> Burst Spiking of a Single Cortical Neuron Modifies Global Brain State
18:07 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1169957
18:07 < cpopell> Lemminkainen: yeh, his other work was more interesting
18:07 < Lemminkainen> a Phase 1a for even a fatal orphan disease will set you back around $1.5M
18:08 < fenn> kanzure:  paperbot should be able to accept things that start with .title paperbot:
18:08 < Lemminkainen> after that you can apply for Breakthrough status but that ain't guaranteed at all
18:08 < fenn> .title paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/324/5927/643.short
18:08 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed.
18:08 < kanzure> nice
18:08 < fenn> you know what i mean
18:09 < eudoxia> why not put "title" after the url and a space
18:09 < fenn> actually i didnt expect yoleaux to crash
18:09 < fenn> either way
18:09 < Lemminkainen> paperbot http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v32/n4/full/nbt0414-307b.html
18:09 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnbt0414-307b
18:09 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
18:09 < fenn> or it could just automatically say the title as default behavior
18:10 < fenn> i mean, what's the point of having it in an irc channel if i can't see what other people are reading
18:10 < fenn> "oh, he's reading something in nature" is not very informative
18:10 < Lemminkainen> I'm reading about camel dicks
18:10 < fenn> .title http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v32/n4/full/nbt0414-307b.html
18:10 < yoleaux> Around the world in a month
18:11 < fenn> okay that sucks too
18:11 < kanzure> "Targeted single-cell electroporation of mammalian neurons in vivo" http://www.ucl.ac.uk/cabi/PDF/2009_Judkewitz_et_al._Nature_Protocols.pdf
18:17 < eudoxia> i spotted pmetzger in the wild https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV63Mf5Qb2Q
18:17 < eudoxia> what a small world we live in
18:19 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
18:20 < fenn> .title
18:20 < yoleaux> Lisp Interface Library
18:20 < dingo> lol
18:20 < fenn> eudoxia: technically, you are "living in" a ghetto
18:20 < fenn> eudoxia: https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/04/24/functional-programming-is-a-ghetto/
18:21 < dingo> openbsd does aa very good job of using cvs, btw
18:21 < dingo> they work off head, no branching
18:21 < dingo> you can use -current, as its called, pretty reliably
18:21 < dingo> you commit after testing
18:21 < dingo> and they do 6month release cycles with tagging
18:22 < dingo> its a very polished development lifecycle
18:22 < dingo> git or cvs, it doesn't matter at that point
18:22 < dingo> its the actual release cycle that matters
18:22 < dingo> every 6 months on the dot
18:22 < eudoxia> fenn: i know i shouldn't be surprised, but it's always fun when i run into someone on some other part of the internet
18:22 < dingo> once a release is cut -- everybody checks in their experimental stuff for all developers to eat
18:23 < fenn> dingo: how do you test changes before committing with no version control system?
18:23 < eudoxia> i've also noticed a weird correlation between Common Lisp programmers and MNT fans. me, kirka, the author of CavityStuffer (MNT software written in CL), some guy who's working on a CL->LLVM compiler who was at some foresight.org panel
18:23 < dingo> its a unix system... you make the new kernel and reboot it, or make the new binaries and install them
18:23 < fenn> i have the image of someone squatting in a dirt floor workshop with no benches
18:24 < dingo> if it works, you commit
18:24 < dingo> you know they don't even use irc
18:24 < dingo> they use icb
18:24 < fenn> what's icb?
18:24 < dingo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Citizen's_Band
18:25 < fenn> but the entire internet is the citizen's band
18:25 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:26 < dingo> everybody has to ssh or ssh tunnel to cvs.openbsd.org to connect to the icb server
18:26 < dingo> so its actually quite a bit more secure than irc
18:26 < fenn> most things are more secure than irc
18:26 < dingo> where only 1/2 of us are using ssl, the other half leak the rest of our stuff in the clear
18:26 < fenn> in fact, this channel is searchable on google
18:26 < dingo> so i noticed
18:27 < kanzure> maybe if i take down the logs, i'll stop running into myself
18:27 < fenn> okay so why dont they just use ssh and talk (lol)
18:28 < fenn> 'talk' the unix command
18:28 < dingo> too many developers for talk, and ytalk is *way* better than talk
18:28 < dingo> (allows more than 2 users, for example)
18:28 < dingo> i grew up on ytalk, don't diss it
18:28 < dingo> i once did a talk with the author of gimp
18:29 < dingo> a blind guy
18:29 < dingo> probobly 15 or so other folk
18:29 < fenn> i grew up on, um, bzflag and circlemud
18:29 < kanzure> bzflag? gah
18:29 < fenn> actually arena and dogfight, but you've probably never heard of that
18:29 < fenn> it was on SGI IRIX
18:29 < kanzure> actually bzflag makes a lot of sense for you
18:30 < dingo> well i grew up on renegade and teleguard, but i matured on the internet, with ytalk
18:30 < fenn> i was on a weird mud developed by a unix sysadmin who liked to add stuff like tab complete, for loops, shell expansion, etc.
18:30 < fenn> it's probably why i am the way i am today
18:32 < eudoxia> my first chat client thing was MSN :X
18:33 < fenn> isn't that a sorry excuse for a news channel?
18:33 -!- realzies [~pinky@unaffiliated/realazthat] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:33 < fenn> MSNBC
18:34 < eudoxia> i always wondered if msnbc was microsoft-related
18:34 < eudoxia> ah yes it is
18:34 < eudoxia> that makes sense
18:35 < fenn> it came out around the same time as MSN
18:35 < kanzure> "Femtosecond optical transfection of individual mammalian cells" hmph
18:36 < fenn> i'll never forgive them for killing hotmail
18:36 < kanzure> http://photon.st-and.ac.uk/limits/files/2013_Gunn-Moore_Nat_Protoc_Antkowiak2013bm.pdf
18:36 < fenn> that means the laser pulse lasts a femtosecond, not that they uptake the data in one femtosecond
18:37 < kanzure> hrm. okay. also, i would probably be content with electroporation and ultrasound transfection.
18:37 < fenn> the yields are pretty high. you could use it to selectively add DNA to whatever tissue you like
18:38 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:38 < kanzure> i wonder if the reason why we don't have an elaborate map of "we stimulated these neurons in the brain here" <-> "we got these results" is because nobody knows which tests to put the rats/monkeys/people through
18:38 < fenn> yeah "these results" is highly subjective
18:39 < kanzure> also, maybe 1 mm^2 is not enough for doing selective memory elicitation in humans
18:39 < fenn> no, it is not
18:40 < fenn> not if you want more than the 100 or so different memories available from that spot
18:40 < kanzure> that's fine if it's the same 100 memories
18:40 < fenn> if you want to trigger the feeling of a ham sandwich, it works great
18:40 < kanzure> although, i'm not sure i care about memory elicitation itself
18:40 < fenn> yes you do
18:41 < kanzure> oh
18:41 < fenn> you're welcome :P
18:41 < fenn> (irc mediated memory elicitation)
18:41 < fenn> "the memory is the message"
18:44 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:44 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
18:44 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
18:44 < kanzure> selection of targets for things to attempt to stimulate is not an obvious task
18:45 < kanzure> you can't just stimulate and get "improved math gland function" since there's no math gland
18:45 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
18:45 < fenn> i agree we need more objective cognitive performance tests, is that what you are saying?
18:46 < kanzure> no
18:46 < kanzure> if you ask your stereotypical transhumanist what they would want to try to stimulate, they would say "my ability to solve word problems faster"
18:46 < fenn> more of objective performance tests (not more-objective tests, they're either objective enough or not objective at all)
18:46 < kanzure> but their answer- whatever it is- in most situations iwll not be directly controlled by a specific region of the brain
18:47 < fenn> of course not
18:47 < fenn> stimulating neurons is like sticking a wire into a computer and hoping something interesting happens
18:48 < kanzure> things that i am certain could be stimulated: memory elicitation (at minimum, generic playback of random crap), auditory input, visual input, motor cortex output, arousal, somatosensory crap, dyslexia (i mean, reading/comprehension can probably be disrupted)
18:49 < fenn> sure
18:49 < pasky> mm, a ham sandwich
18:49 < fenn> oops :P
18:49 < kanzure> i suppose that might be enough to work with
18:50 < fenn> also motor cortex input should be fun
18:50 < kanzure> that's been working in rats (or mice? sigh)
18:51 < fenn> no i mean, "you are now moving your arm"
18:51 < fenn> and then you look over and nothing is happening
18:51 < fenn> except it would probably be related to a robot that is moving
18:52 < fenn> so you feel like you're moving but you're not, the robot is moving
18:52 < kanzure> things that would be nice but don't have immediately obvious targets to stimulate: mathematical ability, working memory 'size', visualization memory fidelity/size, language acquisition/uptake timeliness, attention, uh.. what else.
18:52 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:52 < kanzure> 'mathematical ability' is one of those wonky things
18:52 < fenn> isnt "mathematical ability" and "word recall" the sort of thing tDCS is supposed to modulate?
18:53 < fenn> i forget what has been claimed for tDCS
18:53 < fenn> it definitely helped with new task learning rate
18:54 < fenn> anyway you've got yourself a nice little combinatorial explosion
18:54 < fenn> types of stimulation, stimulation parameters, stimulation locations, types of tests, parameters of tests, representation schema
18:55 < fenn> by the time you're done, the brain is probably fried, nullifying your results
18:56 < fenn> so the only way is to get truckloads of fresh warm brains, and igor is held up at the border by customs
18:56 < kanzure> you can rule out certian regions of the brain as uninteresting
18:57 < fenn> O RLY
18:57 < fenn> they said the same thing about DNA
18:57 < kanzure> if it was removed through surgery and other interesting things were still happening (without time for learning or rewiring) then it is probably not relevant to whatever you're looking for
18:58 < fenn> sure bisecting works for deterining function/structure relationships, but it doesn't mean the other half is "uninteresting"
18:58 < fenn> determining*
18:58 < kanzure> otherwise how would you explain our knowledge of things like the auditory cortex
18:59 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
18:59 < kanzure> if you're looking for a way to stimulate audio input, and you know about the auditory cortex, why would you look in other places
19:00 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:04 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
19:12 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-48-173-76.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving]
19:15 < Lemminkainen> paperbot http://www.genomeweb.com/sequencing/sequencing-blood-and-brain-samples-supercentenarian-unveils-background-somatic-m
19:15 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/257706dd3df7c9452c7ecdf6273824d1.txt
19:16 < Lemminkainen> damn
19:16 < Lemminkainen> nmz787_i you available to send up a copy? my entire team is down the nerd foxhole on debating this and we need more info
19:16 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:22 < fenn> heh grg.org the oldest living site on the internet
19:24 < fenn> "made with SimpleText"
19:26 -!- ivan` [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
19:27 < ParahSailin> hm the focus fusion people are gonna do a kickstarter
19:32 -!- ivan` [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:40 < kanzure> this guy is fun: http://scholar.google.com/citations?sortby=pubdate&hl=en&user=s7gOlh8AAAAJ&pagesize=100&view_op=list_works
19:41 < kanzure> "Working memory capacity predicts dopamine synthesis capacity in the human striatum"
19:43 < kanzure> "Impulsive personality predicts dopamine-dependent changes in frontostriatal activity during component processes of working memory"
19:43 -!- Adifex [Adifex@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fe6e:f4e8] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Just going out for a swim..."]
19:47 < kanzure> "An FMRI study of working memory on and off ritalin in adolescents with ADHD" neat
19:49 < juri_> nice.
19:59 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:04 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20:06 < kanzure> hrm, methlyphenidate has been shown to enhance working memory http://www.adders.org/camb%20research.pdf (i thought the literature just said "linked" and not enhanced)
20:06 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:06 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Changing host]
20:06 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:07 -!- Adifex [Adifex@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fe6e:f4e8] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:07 -!- Adifex is now known as Adifex|pub
20:10 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.129.225] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:11 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20:11 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v10/n3/abs/nn1846.html
20:11 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnn1846
20:26 < ebowden> paperbot: http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/scd.2009.0261
20:28 < paperbot> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/_weakrefset.py", line 73, in __contains__)
20:31 < ebowden> Noooooo!
20:31 -!- Adifex|pub is now known as everyone
20:31 < kanzure> this is a cool one,
20:31 -!- everyone is now known as Adifex|pub
20:31 < kanzure> "Alpha2A-adrenoceptors strengthen working memory networks by inhibiting cAMP-HCN channel signaling in prefrontal cortex" http://jackknife.med.yale.edu/mlab/pdfs/wang2007.pdf
20:32 < ebowden> Ah, yes, guanfacine.
20:32 < xentrac> fenn: you've confused the Principle of Least Power with the Principle of Least Authority [or Privilege]
20:32 < fenn> oh silly me :P
20:32 < fenn> Power, Privilege, completely separate concepts
20:34 < kanzure> hmm "Facilitation and restoration of cognitive function in primate prefrontal cortex by a neuroprosthesis that utilizes minicolumn-specific neural firing"
20:36 < xentrac> yeah, I think Tim maybe named the principle a bit wrong
20:36 < xentrac> but the W3C's later renaming of it was even worse
20:41 < ebowden> paperbot: http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/scd.2009.0261
20:43 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:44 < fenn> xentrac: what did they rename it to?
20:44 < kanzure> principle of xml
20:44 < fenn> principle of unreadable tags?
20:45 < dingo> XML XML XMLXMXLMxlmxlmxlmxlmxlmxlmlmx YES
20:45 < dingo> <3
20:45 < dingo> employs thousands globally
20:45 < fenn> jobs jobs jobs jobs developers developers developers developers developers developers
20:46 < xentrac> I don't even remember
20:47 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/489cc733fdb25caeab637928a9c1024.txt
20:48 < ebowden> paperbot: file: http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/scd.2009.0261
20:48 < ebowden> paperbot: file:http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/scd.2009.0261
20:48 < fenn> "principle of least complexity" would be better
20:49 < xmj> good morning
20:49 < fenn> but then you have to fight people's preconceived notions of complexity
20:50 < kanzure> "Frontal activations associated with accessing and evaluating information in working memory: an fMRI study.pdf" http://memlab0.eng.yale.edu/PDFs/2003_Zhang_Leung_Johnson_NeuroImage.pdf
20:50 < fenn> vanuatu eh, xmj you should talk to juyun kim (no not really)
20:51 < kanzure> what
20:51 < kanzure> did he fucking sneak in again
20:51 < fenn> unfortunately i forgot which nick he was using when i talked with him about his "contacts" in vanuatu
20:52 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20:52 < fenn> this was a couple years ago
20:52 < kanzure> he came back a few times
20:52 < kanzure> but eventually i smelled his scent
20:52 < fenn> the scent of the wild honeybadger
20:52  * fenn hisses ferociously
20:53 < fenn> his resume looks so boring
20:53 < xmj> fenn: whothatguy
20:53 < fenn> just some scam artist
20:54 < fenn> wanted to build a hackerspace in vanuatu
20:54 < xmj> meh
20:54 < xmj> i hope by the time i get there they have fast-enough internet
20:54 < fenn> how fast is fast-enough?
20:54 < kanzure> fenn: http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-01-30.log
20:54 < fenn> IRC over shortwave radio!
20:54 < xmj> fenn: 10mbit/s is a start
20:55 < fenn> 100 baud is a start
20:55 < kanzure> fenn: http://pastebin.com/1w1rbY92
20:55 < xmj> fenn: wanna see you load jquery-rich websites over 100baud
20:55 < fenn> that's why i'm building THE ASSIMILATOR
20:55 < kanzure> fenn: and basically i only know one person that has this sort of pathology
20:55 < fenn> "jquery-rich" what does that even mean
20:55 < fenn> BLOAT
20:56 < fenn> you could use an already-existing bloat-reduction proxy server i guess
20:57 < fenn> kanzure: the endless information updates with no prompting is what gives it away
20:57 < kanzure> yes, but also other things like, he gave his mom's body to cryonics institute
20:58 < kanzure> and the mention of xrumer
20:58 < fenn> why would he say stuff like that if he's trying to hide his identity?
20:58 < kanzure> because he's a moron?
20:59 < fenn> aw, gradstudentbot
20:59  * fenn weeps a single virtual tear
21:01 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:01 < fenn> "if only i could just work at home or something
21:01 < fenn> ^^ not a very talented spammer i guess
21:01 -!- gradstudentbot [~gradstude@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:01 < fenn> you're ALIVE!!!
21:01 < fenn> .botsnack
21:01 < yoleaux> :D
21:01 < fenn> not you
21:01 < kanzure> gradstudentbot: how goes the paper?
21:01 < gradstudentbot> I saw that paper when it came out.
21:04 < fenn> hey what about automating mechanical turk
21:04 < fenn> write AI that does the task :P
21:05 < kanzure> why are you bringing up mturk?
21:05 < fenn> everybody wins
21:05 < fenn> reading that log you linked with dantespeaks, "Lemminkainen> avoid Mech Turk unless you want to make average $4/hr
21:05 < kanzure> why are you reading that log, heh
21:06 < kanzure> just irc drama really
21:06 < fenn> why do anything
21:06 < kanzure> because i told you to?
21:06 < fenn> sure
21:06 < fenn> i've been infected with the freedom virus
21:07 < superkuh> http://wondermark.com/1k19/
21:08 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:08 < Lemminkainen> I did what now?
21:08 < Lemminkainen> I can't be held accountable to things I said months ago
21:08 < gradstudentbot> I just finished my pset two days early.
21:11 < fenn> Lemminkainen: what subjective effect does DHEA have? i tried it and it just made me extremely tired
21:12 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
21:12 < Lemminkainen> I've only ever consumed DHEA after a destroying workout and then I'm generally mixing it with a lot of food and cartoons so I can't tell you for sure
21:15 < kanzure> "Neural activity in the hippocampus predicts individual visual short‐term memory capacity"
21:15 < kanzure> well that's problematic.
21:15 < fenn> it's textbook level knowledge
21:15 < fenn> why is it problematic?
21:16 < kanzure> that's not textbook level knowledge
21:17 < kanzure> hippocampus is often implicated in long-term memory, but not often short-term visual memory capacity (note the word isn't 'storage' or 'retrieval')
21:17 < Lemminkainen> I could see the hippocampus buffering signals from the visual cortex
21:18 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
21:18 < fenn> from the beginning of the wikipedia article on hippocampus: "The hippocampus ... plays important roles in the consolidation of information from short-term memory to long-term memory and spatial navigation."
21:19 < kanzure> if it is a correlate for prediction, and not the causal source, then is that still "playing a role"
21:19 < fenn> i have no idea what "correlate for prediction" means
21:20 < kanzure> the study was about prediction
21:20 < kanzure> using one variable to predict another
21:20 < fenn> it sounds like the same thing
21:21 < fenn> "plays a role" vs "activity predicts"
21:21 < Lemminkainen> you want to link the study?
21:21 < kanzure> not really
21:21 < fenn> let's continue the hippocampus-swinging contest instead
21:22 < fenn> WHO DARES CHALLENGE MY SHORT TERM MEMORY
21:23 < kanzure> i forget
21:23 < fenn> man, they should just start over and rename everything in the brain
21:23 < fenn> "seahorse"? "boobies"?
21:24 < fenn> i can't believe we put up with this shit
21:24 < kanzure> well, what would be a better naming, identification, location scheme?
21:25 < fenn> something better than "the thing stuck to the other thing next to the thingy"
21:25 < kanzure> genotyping identification of individual neuron types seems to be doing pretty well
21:26 < kanzure> pyramidal neurons and others are identifiable based on shape and mRNA expression profile crap
21:26 < fenn> sure there's a glut of data
21:26 < fenn> we have enough detail about the function of different regions now to be able to make up meaningful names
21:26 < kanzure> it's too bad that neural tube developmental "go in this direction" data is gone once the neuron is mature
21:27 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-198-29-24.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:27 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-225-26-162.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:28 < fenn> so instead of "seahorse thingy (in greek)" it could be "memory consolidator"
21:29 < fenn> people almost always prefer the version they were first introduced to, so anyone who knows enough about the functions of everything to come up with a system wouldn't have any motivation to do so
21:29 < fenn> a naming system*
21:30 < fenn> there are an awful lot of genes named "scooby doo" and the like, i hope that shit gets fixed eventually
21:31 < Lemminkainen> I actually have no problem with that
21:31 < kanzure> yes and "SCX14" is such a better gene name?
21:31 < Lemminkainen> Tiddlywinks and decapentaplegic
21:31 < fenn> it's fine as a placeholder when you have no idea what it does
21:32 < fenn> not so good when you have to inform someone they're dying because  of a scooby doo mutation
21:32 < Lemminkainen> Histone-deacetylase-that-also-works-in-Golgi-but-not-in-mitochondria
21:32 < Lemminkainen> yep, that's awesome
21:32 < Lemminkainen> such a better system
21:33 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
21:33 < fenn> there seems to be a trend away from trying to make meaningful abbreviations
21:34 < kanzure> there's a taxonomy of proteins and enzymes, maybe it should be reorganized into some sort of human-manipulatable grammar
21:34 < fenn> like in the 1920's "communism international" became "ComIntern"
21:34 < kanzure> oh right, IUPAC naming sort of did that
21:34 < fenn> "signals intelligence" becomes "SIGINT"
21:35 < Lemminkainen> Hisdeacgolnotimit
21:35 < fenn> Histone-deacetylase-that-also-works-in-Golgi-but-not-in-mitochondria becomes "scooby doo"?
21:35 < Lemminkainen> SIRT7, actually
21:35 < fenn> meh at least it's related to something
21:36 < fenn> no idea what SIRT actually stands for
21:36 < Lemminkainen> sirtuin
21:37 < fenn> SIR2 -> sirtuin -> SIRT? that's bogus
21:37 < Lemminkainen> I didn't name it
21:37 < Lemminkainen> I did, however, name a line of transgenic mice "butt exploder"
21:37 < Lemminkainen> because they lacked IL-10 and would sometimes develop spontaneous rectal prolapse
21:38 < gradstudentbot> I am kind of curious what he has a Ph.D. in, I can't really find this anywhere, it could be underwater basket weaving for all I know.
21:38 < fenn>  The name Sir2 comes from the yeast gene 'silent mating-type information regulation 2' the gene responsible for cellular regulation in yeast.
21:38 < gradstudentbot> Whatever, I'm really dating school anyway.
21:39 < fenn> Lemminkainen: see, that's the kind of descriptive naming we need more of in science
21:39 < fenn> butt exploder, not sir2
21:39 < fenn> shouldn't it be SMIR2?
21:40 < fenn> gah, biologists
21:40 < yashgaroth> "what do the test results say, doctor?" "it appears you have a mutation in the, uh, butt exploder gene"
21:41 < kanzure> thankfully neosphincter(R) has been approved for "humanitarian use"
21:41 < fenn> ok fine, "rectus explodicus"
21:41 < yashgaroth> sphinctumab
21:41 < Lemminkainen> the Neosphincter is a prosthetic mechanic device that vibrates in response to flexion of the pubococcyxal muscles
21:42 < Lemminkainen> dammit yashgaroth not the mabs
21:42 < Lemminkainen> I have seen WAY too many biotech startups get founded on the basis of ONE promising monoclonal antibody
21:42 < fenn> what's the difference between a mab and a mib
21:42 < fenn> or a nib
21:42 < fenn> or a ulib
21:42 < yashgaroth> I've seen startups founded on the idea of a basis of one promising mab
21:42 < kanzure> that neosphincter description sounds like the start to a porn scene
21:43 < kanzure> prosthetic mechanic device that vibrates, we all know where this is going
21:43 < fenn> it's no coincidence the medical device startup scene is in the bay area
21:43 < Lemminkainen> it's true that we don't have enough cyborg porn
21:44 < fenn> yeah there's Tetsuo the iron man, what else
21:44 < gradstudentbot> I don't know, I think that's kind of problematic.
21:44 < Lemminkainen> I want to see something serious with hydraulics and lasers
21:44 -!- Adifex|pub is now known as Adifex
21:46 < fenn> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uROMTzJsfOI
21:46 < yoleaux> Tetsuo: The Iron Man trailer
21:47 < jrayhawk> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6040/301.full.pdf
21:48 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/bc5140bb89fbeebcbdd29cfa9ce0f314.pdf
21:50 < kanzure> what's peroglide
21:50 < fenn> Pergolide (trade name Permax) is an ergoline -based dopamine receptor agonist used in some countries for the treatment of Parkinson's disease
21:51 < jrayhawk> I'll show you my rod knocker if you show me your bushing pusher.
21:51 < kanzure> that's a lousy deal
21:51 < jrayhawk> especially since i do not have a rod knocker
21:52 < Lemminkainen> you could make one out of a stale baguette
21:53 < jrayhawk> but gliadin makes baby jesus cry
21:53 < jrayhawk> sourdough baguette. that's the solution.
21:53 < Lemminkainen> remember to laminate it first
21:54 < jrayhawk> but estrogenic activity makes baby jesus girly
21:54 < fenn> pea protein and MCT oil from now on
21:55 < fenn> jrayhawk: what's a good anisotropic food
21:56 < fenn> preferably shelf stable and relatively solid under most conditions
21:56 < ebowden> Oh by the way, did anyone here know about the role of the hippocampus in imagination?
21:56 < fenn> imagination, what's that?
21:56 < ebowden> (Those without one cannot create a scene, in their head.)
21:56 < fenn> is that a kind of consciousness?
21:57 < kanzure> what do you mean "create a scene in their head"
21:57 < fenn> is it an ineffable qualia of truth?
21:57 < kanzure> how do i know if i have a scene or not?
21:57 < jrayhawk> hmmm
21:57 < fenn> is it the juice that p-zombies are trying to suck out of brains?
21:57 < kanzure> dopamine nectar juice
21:58 < ebowden> They are asked to imagine themselves in a warm beach with blue sky, and white sand.
21:58 < fenn> kanzure: i think it's more to do with the sigma receptor
21:58 < ebowden> Normal people can do this.
21:58 < kanzure> how do i know if i am doing it or not?
21:58 < fenn> all people fall on the normal curve
21:59 < fenn> normal people can do what?
21:59 < ebowden> Because you can 'see' the scene in your head, as if you are remembering it.
21:59 < jrayhawk> 100% chocolate makes for weird fracture patterns; maybe there's a way to forge chocolate
21:59 < fenn> maybe you are just remembering what you want to
22:00 < kanzure> and if you've never been there, then it can't be remembering
22:00 < ebowden> That's why I said 'see' as if you are remembering.
22:00 < fenn> jrayhawk: there is a whole science of chocolate metallurgy and studying the grain growth under various conditions, annealing and tempering and hardening etc
22:00 < jrayhawk> oh neat
22:00 < ebowden> I did not say you would be remembering.
22:00 < kanzure> "Working memory capacity predicts dopamine synthesis capacity in the human striatum"
22:00 < fenn> chocolate often goes on sale when it has been stored improperly or for too long and has the wrong crystal structure
22:01 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.jneurosci.org/content/28/5/1208.short
22:01 < jrayhawk> maybe that would be a good room-temperature unspoilable anisotropic solid
22:01 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1523%2FJNEUROSCI.4475-07.2008
22:01 < fenn> but if you are just going to melt it and recast then it doesnt matter what the structure is
22:01 < jrayhawk> though if you had more of a "why" i could give a better answer
22:01 < jrayhawk> maybe
22:01 < fenn> i want to make a logistically optimized generic food. have you seen "serenity"?
22:02 < ParahSailin> just drink lb
22:02 < jrayhawk> not recently enough to remember the food involved
22:02 < fenn> i am thinking something about 20mm on a side, a high fat high protein cube with two edible separators (rice paper?) stacked up in tubes
22:03 < fenn> in "serenity" they are toting these gold bars around, and in the end it turns out they're vitamin-enhanced clif bars or something
22:03 < fenn> everyone knew this, the joke was on the viewer
22:03 < kanzure> hrmm i can't find reports of exceptional working memory
22:03 < jrayhawk> various bits of beef round have some pretty tough fibers; maybe they can be jerkied
22:04 < fenn> my impression of pemmican is way different from the "pemmican" currently being sold by the sioux at REI
22:04 < jrayhawk> the jerky equivalent of string cheese
22:04 < fenn> they're selling something more like a slim jim, that can't be right
22:04 < jrayhawk> a cube of smokey deliciousness
22:04 < fenn> shouldnt it be the texture of modeling clay?
22:04 < Lemminkainen> I need to cook with this!
22:05 < fenn> the other option was to put pemmican in metallized plastic baby food pouches
22:05 < jrayhawk> i think pemmican is anywhere from pate to chunky meatball
22:05 -!- drazak [~bleh@198.52.199.197] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:05 < fenn> "chunky meatball" just seems like it would go bad
22:05 < Lemminkainen> pemmican and bone marrow pasta bolognese
22:06 < Lemminkainen> fresh black olives and buratta on top
22:06 < jrayhawk> huh, second result for "pemmican" is mark sisson
22:06 < ebowden> Oh, interesting, oxford are recruiting people with exceptional working memory capacity.
22:06 < fenn> that's probably where i heard of it
22:07 < fenn> "weeks away from camp with nothing but pemmican to eat and snow to drink" sounds pretty good
22:08 < Lemminkainen> liver dumplings are also pretty great for that
22:08 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:08 < fenn> mark sisson's method is totally different from what i read about northern michigan tribes
22:09 < xmj> so i'm finally done with those videos
22:09 < xmj> jrayhawk: thanks again
22:09 < fenn> they covered a glob of meat in clay, baked the clay ball in coals for like 2 days, then broke open the clay and powdered the now-ultra-dry meat
22:09 < xmj> turns out i want more fish and less beans. otherwise i'm in the good
22:09 < jrayhawk> but, but, the magical fruit!
22:10 < xmj> ?
22:10 < jrayhawk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beans,_Beans,_the_Musical_Fruit
22:10 < jrayhawk> i suppose green plantains are more magical
22:10 < fenn> anyway i tried to find a commodity source of saturated fat; lard has been polluted with omega-6 and beef suet is super oxidized
22:11 < fenn> coconut oil melts at a very low temperature, so i guess that leaves cocoa butter
22:11 < fenn> maybe mix carnauba wax and coconut oil
22:11 < jrayhawk> tropical traditions sells five gallon buckets of coconut oil for $100-150 depending on quality
22:12 < jrayhawk> I also have a five gallon bucket of grass-fed tallow from US Wellness meats, but I feel sorta crappy if I try to use it as a staple calorie source.
22:12 < gradstudentbot> I really like him, but some of his work is really problematic.
22:12 < fenn> is beeswax edible?
22:12 < fenn> i mean it probably wont kill you, but eating nothing but beeswax + coconut oil for months?
22:13 < jrayhawk> these days I mostly just buy ten pound bags of frozen grain-finished ground beef suet.
22:13 < jrayhawk> seems to do okay
22:13 < fenn> where do you get suet?
22:14 < jrayhawk> Special order from grocery stores. $1-2/lb
22:14 < fenn> that's pretty cheap
22:14 < fenn> that's cheaper than paraffin
22:14 < jrayhawk> I'm sure I could get it for less if I bothered to get to know any local cattle farmers or butchers.
22:14 < fenn> and it isn't oxidized to death?
22:14 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:14 < jrayhawk> Not that I've noticed.
22:15 < fenn> i had a bad experience with bird feeder cake
22:15 < kanzure> http://cocomac.g-node.org/drupal/? "CoCoMac (Collations of Connectivity data on the Macaque brain) is our approach to produce a systematic record of the known wiring of the primate brain. The main database contains details of hundreds of tracing studies in their original descriptions. Further data are continuously added."
22:15 < kanzure> "To overcome the problem of divergent brain maps we developed ORT (Objective Relational Transformation), an algorithmic method to convert data in a coordinate- independent way based on logical relations between areas in different brain maps."
22:15 < fenn> ok, just a headache, but it was clearly caused by the suet
22:15 < jrayhawk> Yeah, most of that stuff is stored room temperature in transparent packaging for long periods of time.
22:16 < jrayhawk> Beef suet should be frozen and fresh and stored in a dark freezer.
22:16 < fenn> jrayhawk: so i just go into safeway and say "buy me some frozen suet"?
22:16 < gradstudentbot> Okay, someone really needs to do the lab dishes.
22:16 < kanzure> weird site features http://cocomac.g-node.org/cocomac2/main/sitemap.php
22:16 < kanzure> "Lookup brain site details for a given (list of) regions(s), which can be specified either by numeric ID, text ID, acronym or full name"
22:17 < jrayhawk> The more sophisticated the butchery setup in the store, the more likely they'll be able to do interesting special orders.
22:17 < fenn> do you go to a co-op or something? or is it a franchise that might exist somewhere else in the country?
22:18 < jrayhawk> I think the franchise I usually shop at is Oregon-only.
22:18 < fenn> why does it need to be frozen?
22:18 < fenn> or is that just a plus
22:19 < kanzure> fenn: try this out, http://cocomac.g-node.org/drupal/?q=search_wizard click "brain sites", and then click "no" for "constraints", and then click "search"
22:19 < kanzure> what a terrible system
22:19 < jrayhawk> Adipose tissue is cellular and involves matricies of protein; gram-negative bacteria can set up shop pretty easily.
22:19 < kanzure> but apparently this is their idea of a brain map :(
22:19 < jrayhawk> Though how vulnerable you are to endotoxemia is, of course, a matter of choice.
22:20 < jrayhawk> Tallow is the processed form that's just pure fat.
22:20 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:20 < fenn> oh
22:20 < fenn> suet is not rendered?
22:20 < jrayhawk> No.
22:20 < fenn> so what percentage of it is fat?
22:21 < jrayhawk> Depends on how careful they are cutting it.
22:21 < fenn> kanzure: it shows no results
22:22 < kanzure> uh. hrm.
22:22 < kanzure> well it showed me a giant table/matrix of brain region connectivity
22:22 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/jocn_a_00556#.U1nxIVRDs-M
22:22 < jrayhawk> there are paleo rotting meat enthusiast fringe groups
22:23 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/d12af535ab4fd60def6fffb316dd1dc1.txt
22:23 < jrayhawk> those are the best trolls
22:23  * fenn gets out the can of ether to fire up the ol' chrome engine
22:24 < fenn> jrayhawk: i'm not interested in "cultured" anything unless i know exactly what is growing
22:25 < jrayhawk> Yeah, I can't actually deal with really really large LPS loads. I'm a lot more resiliant than most folks, at least.
22:25 < fenn> okay cocomac shows a table in chrome, but i still have no idea what it says
22:26 < kanzure> there's json output available if you select it
22:26 < fenn> jrayhawk: huh? gram-negative is in yogurt. you can't eat yogurt?
22:26 < fenn> i mean you're not injecting it
22:26 < fenn> kanzure: yeah but what the hell am i looking at?
22:27 < fenn> 100100AB89-NLOT-IIIAB89NLOT-IIIDLamina_SubCtx(1)(1)(16)(16)
22:27 < kanzure> is this chrome or chromium?
22:27 < fenn> google-chrome-beta
22:27 < jrayhawk> what strains are gram-negative?
22:27 < fenn> Version 34.0.1847.14 beta
22:28 < fenn> anyway the point was that a bunch of tables with numbers in them doesn't really help me in anyway
22:28 < fenn> jrayhawk: e. coli, lactic acid bacteria, salmonella, um, just about anything that is not a pathogen
22:29 < jrayhawk> I mean, in yogurt
22:30 < jrayhawk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus the common one sure ain't
22:31 < fenn> huh
22:31 -!- ParahSailin [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
22:32 < fenn> okay i dont know what i am talking about
22:32 -!- sheena [~home@d108-180-136-217.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
22:33 < jrayhawk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipopolysaccharide LPS is one of those big reasons intestinal permeability is a gateway to autoimmunity
22:34 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:35 < fenn> so is the idea to not have gram-negative bacteria growing in your gut in the first place?
22:36 < fenn> also what's with mannan oligosaccharide supplements
22:36 < jrayhawk> No, the idea is to keep the tight junctions zipped up.
22:37 < xmj> that's one thing i haven't quite grokked
22:37 < xmj> how does one do that?
22:37 < fenn> i ate a bagel today. am i going to die?
22:38 < xmj> Sure.
22:38 < xmj> Unless you want to live forever, which Queen tells me you don't
22:39 < fenn> i guess gram-negatives are not typically pathogens because we have such good defenses against them
22:39 -!- ParahSailin [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:39 < fenn> xmj: where'd you get that idea?
22:40 < jrayhawk> xmj: the only thing we know super-well mechanistically is a universal response to gliadin via chemokine receptor 3; observationally this seems to be pretty universal with low concentrations of grain prolamines, and more scattered responses to legumes, dairy (probably casein), nightshades (probably glycoalkaloids), yeast, and various kinds of intestinal dysbiosis
22:40 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:40 < xmj> fenn: Quee - Who wants to live forever?
22:41 < juri_> i want to live forever.
22:41 < xmj> jrayhawk: TLDR eliminate grains, legumes and dairy - and be happy?
22:42 < Lemminkainen> fenn gram-negatives are definitely pathogens
22:42 < kanzure> what is TLDR?
22:42 < fenn> Just gotta get out - just gotta get right outta here
22:42 < Lemminkainen> enterohemorrhagic E. coli, Shigella, Cholera et al
22:42 < Zhwazi> Too Long, Didn't Read
22:42 < jrayhawk> Eliminate grains, at least. May be prudent to demo a period of eliminating everything else just to get a baseline, but sensitivity varies.
22:42 < xmj> Reddit-speak for "Summary in one (short) sentence."
22:42 < kanzure> fuck reddit
22:43 < jrayhawk> technically originated on SA.
22:43 < kanzure> like all evil
22:43 < fenn> what is "reddit"
22:43 < xmj> SA ?
22:43 < fenn> is that short for "I read it"?
22:43 < kanzure> xmj: the root of all evil on the internet
22:43 < fenn> "I read your one sentence summary"
22:43 < kanzure> anything terrible and ungood can be traced back to that community
22:44 < kanzure> even things they are not directly responsible for, like vaccinations
22:44 < gradstudentbot> I just finished my pset two days early.
22:44 < fenn> Salk was secretly a member of SA
22:44 < kanzure> probably
22:45 < xmj> jrayhawk: cool
22:45 < fenn> jrayhawk: the reactions to dairy are probably to lectins from whatever the cow ate
22:46 < fenn> gliadin is a subset of lectins
22:47 < jrayhawk> separate thing
22:47 < jrayhawk> WGA is the lectin, gliadin is a prolamine
22:47 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
22:49 -!- helleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
22:49 -!- hehelleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:50 < fenn> man the wikipedia article on gliadin sucks
22:50 < xmj> It's wiki. Improving is allowed as long as you bring the [[quotation needed]]
22:50 < fenn> prolamine isn't a functional description
22:51 < fenn> "Prolamines are a group of plant storage proteins having a high proline content"
22:51 < fenn> okay but what does it do
22:51 < xmj> rewrite it
22:51 < jrayhawk> stores nitrogen, elastically binds to basically everything
22:52 < fenn> okay so zein from corn
22:52 < fenn> zein, a prolamine, is it found in cow's milk?
22:53 < xmj> sigh
22:53 < xmj> "Eliminate dairy" basically means "No cream in my coffee" which will be hard.
22:53 < jrayhawk> the nitrogen content makes it extremely valuable, the proline content makes it nigh-indigestable, the random binding affinities make it highly immunogenic, and the incredibly long nature makes it mechanically complicated (similar to the albumin family)
22:54 < jrayhawk> dairy protein is the (potential) issue; cream is probably fine
22:54 < xmj> hm.
22:54 < jrayhawk> ghee is also pure fat
22:54 < fenn> chocolate or coconut oil, probably want an emulsifier like egg yolk
22:54 < xmj> how's there no protein in cream?
22:54 < xmj> how come*
22:56 < jrayhawk> Cream is what rises to the top; it's fat. Solids sink.
22:57 < gradstudentbot> So, people always joke about that, but I feel like weaving baskets underwater would not be the easiest thing in the world.
22:57 < fenn> cream contains 2% protein, probably mostly whey
22:57 < xmj> hm
22:57 < xmj> that'd make sense.
22:58 < fenn> "solids sink" isn't quite accurate when talking about milk protein
22:58 < fenn> cream rises because fat is less dense than water
22:58 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:58 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Changing host]
22:58 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:58 < jrayhawk> Well, sinks below the fat, anyway
22:58 < jrayhawk> you're right, it stays mostly solute in the water.
22:58 < fenn> there is still water (and dissolved proteins) in the gaps between fat micelles in the cream
22:59 < fenn> what's wrong with dairy protein again?
22:59 < fenn> i thought all the "casein causes cancer" stuff was based on the (flawed) china study
23:00 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:00 < fenn> and whey just stimulates IGF because of its amino acid profile
23:00 < jrayhawk> Induces autoimmunity in some folks.
23:00 < fenn> or something
23:00 < fenn> why would dairy protein induce autoimmunity
23:01 < jrayhawk> Don't know; intestinal permeability is a very new field.
23:01 < jrayhawk> I mean, the stupid answer is "varying levels of adaptation based on genetics"
23:01 < jrayhawk> but it's not a particularly satisfactory one.
23:01 < fenn> we know that gliadin causes intestinal permeability, so maybe there's something like gliadin in milk (and maybe it isn't casein or whey)
23:03 < fenn> that's why i brought up lectins (I read this page but it didn't really "stick" http://krispin.com/lectin.html )
23:03 < fenn> "Glucosamine is specific for wheat lectin and it is this specificity that may protect the gut and cartilage from cell inflammation and destruction in wheat (or gluten) responsive arthritis."
23:04 < jrayhawk> There may also be something about galactose and intestinal dysbiosis.
23:04 < jrayhawk> Yeah, I liked that theory a lot.
23:05 < jrayhawk> anti-TTG is heavily involved in arthritis, so stopping both the permeability and the specific antigen response would sure make sense for improving joints
23:05 < fenn> i mean, cows eat grains, and they probably also have intestinal permeability, so it's not unreasonable that there's plant proteins in their milk
23:05 < fenn> plus cow blood in the milk
23:06 < jrayhawk> huh http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23626786
23:06 < fenn> well there you go
23:07 < jrayhawk> i totally didn't mammary tight junctions were variable
23:07 < jrayhawk> i guess that makes sense; immune system's gotta get access somehow.
23:07 < fenn> .title
23:07 < yoleaux> Lipopolysaccharide disrupts the milk-blood barrier ... [PLoS One. 2013]
23:08 < jrayhawk> anyway, seems to be an issue even with grass fed milk, and raw milk, though those things anecdotally help some
23:08 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
23:09 < fenn> i'm sure getting your milk from one cow is better than from 1000 cows all mixed together
23:09 < jrayhawk> one of the more amusing things is that people without lactase persistance genes can still adapt to pretty heavy dairy consumption just due to gut flora
23:09 < gradstudentbot> These findings indicate that extensive genetic engineering of human hematopoiesis can be achieved with lentiviral vectors.
23:09 < fenn> i definitely couldn't tolerate milk after being vegan for several years
23:10 < fenn> or cheese
23:10 < jrayhawk> Cheese is the highest protein form of dairy.
23:10 < jrayhawk> Ghee should be safe if ever you want to toy with buttery flavor again.
23:10 < fenn> oh, i can drink milk now
23:11 < jrayhawk> oh good
23:11 < Lemminkainen> I don't understand this idea of human health as some hugely fragile thing
23:11 < fenn> Lemminkainen: are you kidding
23:11 < Lemminkainen> gods forbid you eat milk from 1000 cows or a conventionally raised apple
23:11 < Lemminkainen> that will surely doom your to teh cancers
23:11 < jrayhawk> Humans are on the cutting edge of what's metabolicly possible.
23:11 < Lemminkainen> not like your metabolism isn't topologically robust and like you don't have multiple repair enzymes
23:12 < fenn> all that complexity just makes for multiple failure modes
23:12 < Lemminkainen> I'm not sure you understand complexity's relationship to resiliency in a nonhomogenous directed graph, then
23:12 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:13 < fenn> yesterday i was reading about mesh networking protocols
23:13 < fenn> there's a difference between complexity and redundancy
23:13 < Lemminkainen> your metabolism is not the same as a BATMAN
23:14 < fenn> Lemminkainen: how do you explain the cancer epidemic?
23:15 < Lemminkainen> I don't understand how you see an epidemic in places where we lack rigorous historical data
23:15 < Lemminkainen> that's wobbly thinking
23:15 < jrayhawk> or the atherosclerosis epidemic, or the obesity epidemic, or the hypertension epidemic, or the insulin resistance epidemic, or the autoimmune epidemic
23:15 < jrayhawk> we have quite good anthropological data on non-westernized societies
23:16 < Lemminkainen> who have also polluted their local environment with less industrial garbage
23:16 < Lemminkainen> fenn http://www.barabasilab.com/pubs/CCNR-ALB_Publications/200010-05_Nature-OrganMetabolic/200010-05_Nature-OrganMetabolic.pdf
23:16 < fenn> so is a "conventional" (lol) apple a cause of cancer or not?
23:17 < Lemminkainen> you can't determine that
23:17 < jrayhawk> gosh, i guess we can't know anything, guys
23:17 < jrayhawk> best pack up and go home
23:18 < Lemminkainen> show me an assay for causality between apples and tumorigenesis
23:18 < fenn> i quite like the explanation afforded by the china study
23:18 < fenn> the mice who didn't get enough protein died before their cancer progressed enough to be noticed
23:19 < Lemminkainen> so organic apples are...what?
23:19 < Lemminkainen> more proteinaceous?
23:19 < fenn> no, they just don't have "industrial garbage" on them
23:19 < Lemminkainen> you're stringing together distal correlations into a misguided idea of causality here
23:19 < fenn> i think the causality of cancer is anything but clear
23:20 < jrayhawk> Lemminkainen: warburg effect; mitochondria overloading causes mitochondrial damage causes cancer
23:20 < jrayhawk> apples can also promote the growth of cancer by supporting the lactic acid pathway
23:21 < Lemminkainen> and you're seeing mitochondrial overload from what?
23:21 < jrayhawk> Any metabolic load that they're not prepared for for whatever reason. Nutrient deficiencies, inflammatory side-effects, etc.
23:21 < Lemminkainen> do you know how mitochondrial biogenesis works?
23:21 < Lemminkainen> cells don't keep damaged mitochondria around
23:21 < gradstudentbot> Can I get Saturday off?
23:21 < jrayhawk> Optimally, yeah.
23:22 < jrayhawk> Shit goes wrong.
23:22 < fenn> like not fasting
23:22 < Lemminkainen> and the body has multiple levels of repair mechanisms
23:23 < jrayhawk> I won't claim sugar is inherently deadly or anything (see: kitavans), but in the right context it's entirely capable of inducing pathological cellular signalling and oxidative stress.
23:23 < fenn> huh i always wondered where they got the idea for DCA as a cancer therapy
23:23 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:23 < fenn>  dichloroacetic acid (DCA), which promotes respiration and the activity of mitochondria, has been shown to kill cancer cells in vitro and in some animal models.[9] The body often kills damaged cells by apoptosis, a mechanism of self-destruction that involves mitochondria, but this mechanism fails in cancer cells where the mitochondria are shut down. The reactivation of mitochondria in cancer
23:23 < fenn> cells restarts their apoptosis program.
23:24 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:25 < gradstudentbot> The results of my study indicate that the climate is about to get really weird.
23:25 < fenn> i'm pretty skeptical of "look at these healthy indigenous people" after it was revealed the Hunza people just didn't keep very good track of their age and exaggerated when the scientists asked how old they were
23:25 < entelechios> this whole libressl thing is funny as hell
23:25 < dingo> :D
23:26 < dingo> "shut up and hack"
23:26 < dingo> its a good motto
23:26 < entelechios> though it took a while for the patch for openbsd to come out compared to other OS's i had to patch
23:26 < entelechios> for openssl
23:26 < entelechios> during heartbleed
23:26 < entelechios> god that was a pain
23:26 < entelechios> custom built it instead of the patch just to keep things running
23:26 < entelechios> then got told by the goons in #openbsd that i made an irrevokable mistake and might as well reinstall
23:27 < xmj> entelechios: that's bullshit thought
23:27 < fenn> some people just keep ferrets
23:27 < xmj> though
23:27 < entelechios> yes i realize hahaha
23:27 < xmj> OpenSSL was *really fast* to providing binpatches.
23:27 < entelechios> fuck arrogant irc nerds
23:27 < dingo> #openbsd is not openbsd
23:27 < dingo> they are assholes there mostly
23:27 < Lemminkainen> fenn and jrayhawk I still don't follow your logic here, it seems a bit random
23:27 < dingo> i had a patch shit all over in there once
23:27 < xmj> FreeBSD was *fast* for the Port and *not so fast == 20h* for the base patches.
23:27 < Lemminkainen> we're not made of glass
23:27 < dingo> i was soliciting openbsd users to test my openbsd patch
23:28 < xmj> dingo: so?
23:28 < dingo> and i got these people going on about "I don't go applying some random stranger's patch, thats not secure"
23:28 < gradstudentbot> Is there free food at that seminar?
23:28 < dingo> and its like uhh dude... its source code, review it....
23:28 < jrayhawk> The normal evolutionary sciences analogy that is typically used is "Ferrari"
23:28 < xmj> dingo: don't take it personally if they criticize you for your patch's lack of quality
23:28 < fenn> Lemminkainen: if you have a health problem you very quickly learn that either a) the doctors know what they're talking about, or b) the doctor's don't know. if you end up in b you have to start thinking about why it is people get sick
23:28 < xmj> dingo: better way to get a patch reviewed is via a mailing list, fwiw
23:28 < dingo> i ended up leaving, but one of the devs contacted me and said hey man sorry those dudes don't speak for us
23:28 < entelechios> what was really annoying was having to rebuild apache against the patch too
23:28 < dingo> eyah well it got ignored anyway
23:29 < entelechios> openbsd apache from like 2002 or some shit
23:29 < dingo> on -tech
23:29 < xmj> entelechios: you don't
23:29 < xmj> openbsd has nginx in base, and afaik it's not statically linked.
23:29 < entelechios> well, i did, because that's the only way i coulda gotten our mailserver working again
23:29 < dingo> entelechios: hates openbsd like i hate djb's software
23:29 < xmj> stop spilling bullshit non-information.
23:29 < xmj> :(
23:29 < Lemminkainen> fenn you can definitely think about why people get sick; I've met a lot of people lately with the MTHFKR mutation in glutamate metabolism who are self-medicating quite well for it
23:29 < entelechios> not my decicions here to use that
23:29 < entelechios> is it in 5.5 base?
23:29 < xmj> it's obvious you're talking out of your ass when you reveal you don't know the difference between statically versus dynamically linked.
23:29 < Lemminkainen> but it takes a LOT to actually induce a huge pathology in almost anyone
23:30 < entelechios> if it is i'd way rather be seeing that used
23:30 < Lemminkainen> multiple mutations usually need to happen to induce cancer or some other disease pathology
23:30 < fenn> Lemminkainen: self medicating how?
23:30 < dingo> entelechios: if you're doing your job, then just do it -- if you're doing something for a home hobby, then chose something you want to work with
23:30 < jrayhawk> Cancer is not a disease of somatic mutation.
23:30 < entelechios> nope just doin my job
23:30 < jrayhawk> It is a metabolic disease.
23:30 < entelechios> and eh i enjoy it
23:30 < entelechios> i got a big old bonus
23:30 < entelechios> and a raise
23:31 < entelechios> out of the past couple weeks of bullshit from that on top of other things
23:31 < dingo> if you were a surfer, you'd be mad that the waves sucked today, or it was too cold, or nobody appreciates your surfing style, or the how the lifeguards are always telling you to go somewhere else, etc. etc.
23:31 < entelechios> lol some surfer bitching about how people dont appreciate his surfing style deserves to get attacked by sharks
23:31 < fenn> anyway there are large percentages of the american populace who are ill, it's not due exclusively to genetics (unless you consider the GLO- mutation "genetics")
23:31 < Lemminkainen> jrayhawk wut cancer is not somatic?
23:32 < jrayhawk> Cancer is mutagenic; mutagenesis is not the primary cause of cancer.
23:33 < ebowden_> By the way, can errors in protein synthesis trigger cancer?
23:34 < entelechios> and the biggest reason i found it a pain in the ass was having to pull down via cvs the base src
23:34 < entelechios> i don't live in a country with fast internet
23:34 < entelechios> so that meant some late as shit overtime
23:35 < entelechios> cvs heh
23:35 < Lemminkainen> jrayhawk you'll need to provide a source on that claim
23:35 < xmj> entelechios: like git would be faster.
23:36 < entelechios> xmj, usually it is
23:36 < entelechios> eg pulling down chromium sources
23:36 < entelechios> thats gigashits worth
23:36 < fenn> Lemminkainen: he's just referring to the warburg hypothesis
23:36 < entelechios> and defintely takes less time via git than svn
23:36 < jrayhawk> Thomas Seyfried and Eugene Fine are the trailblazers on that front, AFAIK
23:37 < xmj> entelechios: i got 200mbit/s downstream, i don't care about your DVCS bikeshed
23:37 < entelechios> i'm pulling a guess out of my ass here but maybe it opens a new conn per file
23:37 < entelechios> welcome to costa rica, can i serve you your opulence on a silver platter poisoned for your gringo ass?
23:37 < xmj> dingo: is entelechios always like that?
23:37 < entelechios> no i don't really talk often in here
23:37 < xmj> bikeshedding around non-issues, for instance?
23:38 < gradstudentbot> I think I'll be done in 4 years.
23:38 < xmj> Marketing and Sales determined that the optimal bikeshed color is 'transparent'.
23:38 < xmj> ... hence overruling engineering which claimed it was 'blue'.
23:38 < xmj> 'Blue' obviously does not sell that well as Sales lacks selling rigor for it.
23:39 < jrayhawk> http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-7-7.pdf is probably the definitive paper
23:39 < entelechios> my bikeshed is made of abalone shells
23:39 < fenn> entelechios: git packs diffs into blobs and compresses them
23:39 < entelechios> ah that's the ticket then
23:39 < jrayhawk> http://robbwolf.com/2013/09/19/origin-cancer/ is an okay layman article
23:40 < entelechios> anyways slang english isn't my forte wtf is a bikeshed
23:40 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:40 < entelechios> ahh i urbandictionaried it
23:40 < fenn> entelechios: http://bikeshed.com/
23:40 < entelechios> bikeshed: anything to do with openbsd ever on irc
23:41 < fenn> yeah
23:41 < entelechios> still makes a fantastic mailserver and firewall OS
23:42 < entelechios> anyways i now know why git does its thing faster and saves me time
23:42 < entelechios> thanks for the information fenn
23:42 < fenn> that is the least important feature of git
23:42 < entelechios> agreed
23:44 < fenn> michael ristow showed that exercise induces oxidative stress; cancer cells are operating at the edge of metabolism (which is why they need to use lactic acid metabolism) and are vulnerable to just a little bit more oxidative stress
23:45 < fenn> i met a plasma physicist at berkeley studying cold oxygen plasmas; they were testing it on cancer, haven't investigated it since then
23:45 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
23:45 < entelechios> i eat a block of dark chocolate per week
23:45 < entelechios> national tradition
23:45 < fenn> .title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3241555/
23:45 < yoleaux> Cold plasma selectivity and the possibility of a paradigm shift in cancer therapy
23:46 < fenn> a) cold plasma application selectively eradicates cancer cells in vitro without damaging normal cells; and (b) significantly reduces tumour size in vivo.
23:46 < entelechios> that's pretty cool
23:47 < fenn> i think they have plasma based hand sterilizers for doctors who are tired of washing their hands all the time
23:47 < fenn> it's a pretty simple device really
23:47 < jrayhawk> cryolipolysis also seemed like a cute concept
23:48 < jrayhawk> disproportionately apoptoses non-metabolic cells, stimulates BAT to eat up the result
23:48 -!- Zhwazi [~Zhwazi@copyfree/contributor/Zhwazi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
23:49 < fenn> you inhale the oxygen plasma for cancer therapy, it's not a magic wand
23:49 < fenn> what's BAT?
23:49 < fenn> oh brown adipose tissue
23:49 < entelechios> so am i talking to oncologists in here at all?
23:49 < jrayhawk> Brown adipose tissue.
23:50 < entelechios> anyone here familiar with some stuff done some years ago on inhibiting nitric oxide pathway controls
23:50 < entelechios> to prevent radiation damage in mice
23:50 < fenn> "the term Cryolipolysis is trademark-protected"
23:50 < fenn> that seems unfair
23:51 < jrayhawk> hah
23:51 < fenn> entelechios: you mean just antioxidants?
23:51 < entelechios> nah this was something specific
23:51 < entelechios> lemme dig around for what i had in mind exactly
23:52 < fenn> .title http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/1/3/3ra7.abstract
23:52 < yoleaux> Radioprotection in Normal Tissue and Delayed Tumor Growth by Blockade of CD47 Signaling
23:52 < entelechios> http://www.dotmed.com/news/story/10571
23:52 < entelechios> this was it i think
23:52 < entelechios> yeah
23:52 < entelechios> that was it
23:53 < entelechios> neat stuff
23:54 < fenn> i thought CD47 was a killer t-cell receptor
23:54 < fenn> what does that have to do with NO
23:55 < entelechios> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD47
23:55 < entelechios> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD47#Angiogenesis
23:56 < fenn> "However, these isoforms are highly conserved between mouse and man" techno sample
23:57 < fenn> paperbot: http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/1/3/3ra7.abstract
23:57 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscitranslmed.3000139
23:57 < fenn> ah jeebus
23:58 < fenn> let's try that again
23:58 < fenn> paperbot: http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/1/3/3ra7.full
23:58 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscitranslmed.3000139
23:59 < fenn> no science for you!
--- Log closed Fri Apr 25 00:00:06 2014