--- Log opened Wed Apr 30 00:00:02 2014
--- Day changed Wed Apr 30 2014
00:00 < fenn> for measuring a bunch of stuff?
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00:00 <@kanzure> for not soldering 10000 wires
00:00 <@kanzure> making the pcb do the work seems like a good idea
00:00 < fenn> uh. multiplexing just means taking a bunch of channels and combining them into a smaller number of channels
00:01 <@kanzure> this is just a routing/layout problem
00:02 < fenn> what's wrong with row/column
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00:02 <@kanzure> the real one or their fake one?
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00:03 < fenn> hm. actually now that i think about it, you'd only get 1/row fraction of the analog signal per pixel
00:03 < fenn> you really want one adc per pixel
00:04 <@kanzure> here's someone doing "receive mode" multiplexing: http://transducers.bme.duke.edu/pubs/uffc_2004_216-226.pdf
00:04 < fenn> i havent read the TI stuff yet but they talk about RF-demodulation, and i figure that's the important step
00:05 < fenn> i wish people would name their fucking files something topical
00:06 <@kanzure> hey i was pretty happy with transducers.bme.duke.edu
00:07 < fenn> there's so many <conference acronym>_<year>_<random numbers>_<grad student last name>.pdf
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00:08 <@kanzure> aren't librarians supposed to help with this stuff
00:10 < fenn> seems like you'd want to choose your receiver elements as either gaussians or fresnel rings
00:10 < fenn> not randomly placed blocks
00:12 < fenn> various eigenfunctions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wavepanel.png
00:13 < fenn> "If the light from two point sources overlaps, the interference pattern maps out the way in which the phase difference between the two waves varies in space. This depends on the wavelength and on the separation of the point sources. The figure to the right shows interference between two spherical waves. The wavelength increases from top to bottom, and the distance between the sources increases
00:13 < fenn> from left to right."
00:14 < fenn> these patterns have the property of focusing on the source of the point source used to generate them, when used as a receiver or transmitter aperture (phase array)
00:15 < fenn> i have no idea what the gain of a bunch of squares thrown together would be
00:15 < fenn> s/gain/radiation pattern/
00:15 < gradstudentbot> The real reason I wanted to join this lab was because I love to clean glassware.
00:17 <@kanzure> dunno if these are the same diagrams as your eigenfunctions http://acoustics.stanford.edu/khuriyakub/opencms/Downloads/09_Karaman_1.pdf
00:17 <@kanzure> (page 4)
00:17 < fenn> you could also map your channels to discrete cosine functions, or wavelets, or ...
00:18 < fenn> there's a whole field called "compressed sensing" which is about tuning your input aperture to match the features you're trying to detect
00:19 < fenn> you can think about it like, instead of using an array of pixels and then converting to cosine transforms, just build your sensor with discrete cosine transform blocks and it will output JPEG data directly
00:20 <@kanzure> things should be shoved to software-side as much as possible
00:20 <@kanzure> "i have discovered that this instruction set causes the cpu to vibrate at 400 kHz, so all we need to do is.."
00:22 <@kanzure> aha the keyword is "fully sampled"
00:22 < fenn> "things should be shoved to software-side as much as possible" actually no, compressed sensing clearly shows that you can get much better sensor performance by selecing the features you want in hardware
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00:23 <@kanzure> performance in the temporal dimension? meh
00:23 < fenn> performance in signal to noise ratio
00:24 <@kanzure> so instead of just pixels with wires, it should be pixels with asic stuff nearby, and then funnel that data somewhere?
00:24 < fenn> the only we use square pixels is (aside from everything being square) they're easy to address with row/column
00:24 <@kanzure> also because of phasing
00:24 <@kanzure> the annular circular design doesn't allow for phased array stuff becaues of the axial symmetry
00:24 < fenn> no you're misunderstanding, the "select features" is an analog property of the sensor material/shape/configuration
00:25 < fenn> gah irc lag
00:25 <@kanzure> *because
00:26 < fenn> annular is sort of an example of what i mean; it provides good sensitivity to depth at expense of angle resolution
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00:26 < fenn> i think it has zero angular discrimination
00:27 < fenn> the segmented annular stuff can do more angle
00:28 < fenn> i dont really get the karaman paper, the point spread functions have something to do with diffraction?
00:30 < fenn> "the transmit and receieve arrays are _configured_over_ a 16x16 square array" which means they are just using square pixels?
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00:34 <@kanzure> so if there was analog multiplexing would that work for both receive and transmit
00:35 < fenn> probably not because of the power difference
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00:36 < fenn> unless you had an "active" array (transistors built into the pixels)
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00:36 < fenn> let's not go there
00:37 < gradstudentbot> I'm writing that up and it will be submitted soon.
00:37 < gradstudentbot> Do I use a one or two sided t-test for that?
00:38 < fenn> push /sdcard/hplusroadmap_incoming/
00:38 < fenn> it would be nice if my nook automatically downloaded pdfs referenced here
00:38  * kanzure feeds paperbot
00:39 < fenn> it's those damn filenames
00:39 < fenn> but*
00:41 <@kanzure> welp, soldering it is
00:42 <@kanzure> although 8x8 is a lot. why not 4x4.
00:42 < fenn> why not 2x2
00:42 <@kanzure> fewer elements constraints beamforming or beam steering
00:42 <@kanzure> *constrains
00:43 < fenn> well do you want to study beamforming or how to multiplex lots of analog channels
00:44 <@kanzure> it would be nice if it's not just for imaging, but i could be convinced against this
00:45 < fenn> 2x2 isn't a final product, just for learning
00:45 < fenn> sort of a hello world
00:46 <@kanzure> 1 element is fine for that, since single element transducers seem to be capable of imaging on their own
00:46 < fenn> but 1 element has no angular resolution at all
00:46 < fenn> so you aren't doing anything like beamforming
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00:47 < fenn> 2x2 could even be run from a usb sound card i bet
00:48 <@kanzure> were you the one that told me about cutting a pzt with a knife?
00:48 < fenn> no
00:49 < fenn> pzt is a ceramic, don't you need to score it and break it?
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00:49 <@kanzure> well these papers seem to say something about micromachining and lasering to cut it up, although not completely-through cuts
00:50 < fenn> what does 7.1 surround mean? one input channel and 7 outputs?
00:51 <@kanzure> i forget which lurker is the audiophile
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00:51 <@kanzure> maybe archels, he does lots of multi-channel recording crap i think
00:52 <@kanzure> for squishy neuron reasons
00:54 < fenn> these things only have 2 stereo jacks, how can it have 8 channels
00:55 < fenn> right, anyway
00:55 < fenn> multi-channel ADC's are cheap, i need to learn about this RF demodulation stuff though
00:59 < fenn> "25 micron diamond-dicing blade" uhh..
01:00 < fenn> i guess you can't etch it
01:03 < fenn> "receive only element located at every eighth element"
01:03 < fenn> so each pixel is dedicated to either transmit or receive
01:09 < fenn> ugh. how do i mirror a site in the wayback machine?
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01:11 < gradstudentbot> Does this look contaminated to you?
01:31 < fenn> wayback2git would be helpful
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03:34 < fenn> xmj: you're learning finnish?
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04:17 < xmj> no
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04:34 < mattybeds> hi
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04:47 < ebowden> Hello.
04:47 < mattybeds> is anyone here actively biohacking ?
04:48 < mattybeds> im an ex computer hacker and im interested in learning a new project.
04:48 < mattybeds> i have one in mind regarding plant root systems as a conduit for conducting electrons.
04:48 < mattybeds> any thoughts on this
04:48 < ebowden> Interested in learning. A good start.
04:49 < ebowden> Electrically conductive plant roots?
04:49 < mattybeds> Well, we all seen the movie avatar when they talk about the plants communicating with each other via roots
04:50 < mattybeds> i was wondering if there is any truth in this.
04:51 < ebowden> Uhhhhhh.... depends what you mean by "truth in this".
04:53 < mattybeds> like the idea that the roots can transfer either energy via conductivity and if this is the case then it could be possible to communicate via electrical impulses.
04:53 < mattybeds> dunno if that makes sense
04:53 < ebowden> I do not believe I have heard any examples of that.
04:54 < mattybeds> http://www.livescience.com/5711-electricity-harvested-trees.html
04:54 < mattybeds> Trees can conduct electricity
04:55 < ebowden> Well, now I have.
04:55 < mattybeds> plants have a tiny magnetic field
04:57 < mattybeds> now its my thinking that if a plant conducts electricity then this would include the root system.
04:57 < mattybeds> and if two plants root system was to touch then possibly they could share energy.
04:58 < ebowden> No reason to say that CAN'T happen.
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04:59 < ebowden> But an exchange of plant hormones seems a more likely way two different plants would communicate.
05:00 < mattybeds> Communication could be on two levels energy transfer and hormones like we use body and verbal language.
05:01 < ebowden> Haven't heard any evidence of plants using electrical communication.
05:02 < mattybeds> How would someone go about test it
05:03 < ebowden> Not sure, I am in no way a qualified botanist or biologist.
05:04 < ebowden> I'd imagine they'd induce and disrupt some electrical signals and see how it affects the plant.
05:04 < ebowden> But I can't really give much more than that.
05:04 < mattybeds> hmmm
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05:12 < mosasaur> I read somewhere damaged plants can give off some scent that warns other plants.
05:14 < mattybeds> So you could say plants have a form of intelligence.
05:15 < mattybeds> i think its an interesting subject
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05:26 < ebowden_> I suppose you could say it.
05:27 < ebowden_> But you wouldn't have a lot of evidence.
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07:24 < fenn> mattybeds: ... nevermind
07:25 < fenn> "hi is anyone doing interesting stuff kthxbye" <disconnect>
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07:30 < fenn> plants and bacteria regularly communicate with oligosaccharides and lectins, the "glycocode" which represents plant health and needs, bacterial population and quorum sensing behavior, soil health, and plants can even exchange sugars and water with soil bacteria and with each other
07:30 < fenn> it's never quite clear if the bacteria are "hacking" the plant to do what they want, or if it's a cooperative relationship, or somewhere in between
07:31 < fenn> but definitely groups of plants can communicate through the roots by emitting chemicals. no electrical impulses as far as i know.
07:32 < fenn> cameron's "avatar" was inspired by deep sea vent ecologies, mostly made up of tube worms, which are animals. (he got involved in deep sea exploration after filming "abyss" and "titanic")
07:33 < mosasaur> fenn: Nothing newly interesting but I realized with these ultrasound tweezers activating the cochlea and balance hemispheres, in combination with an oculus rift, one could actually fly like superman or have out of the body experiences without leaving one's chair. Also, I am completely baffled what kind of chips you guys are talking about in the logs.
07:34 < fenn> oh the PZT transducer arrays? just a standard ultrasound material, like a cellphone speaker cut up into tiny pieces
07:34 < fenn> you can cut them in circular patterns, or a square grid, or some other pattern
07:35 < fenn> DMD = digital micromirror device, which is similar in that it's a grid of pixels, but has nothing to do with ultrasound
07:35 < mosasaur> Can it fill a 3d volume, with defined spikes in small areas?
07:36 < fenn> i'm going to go ahead and say yes
07:37 < fenn> there will be artifacts related to pixellation in strange mathematical ways
07:37 < mosasaur> Great. Now we only need to know where to point it.
07:38 < fenn> it's the pointing it that i'm learning about. staring at the huge pile of whitepapers and not reading
07:39 < fenn> not nearly as straightforward as, say, a laser scanner
07:42 < mosasaur> OK. How about having a container that is filled with small balls, or droplets, or whatever, that crack if they're stirred by ultrasound. Maybe there's some glue inside that makes them stick together. Then let the unaffected balls fall away and we have 1) some new 3D printing technique 2) a way to test ultrasound emitters.
07:43 < cluckj> that's already a technique for 3D printing with lasers
07:43 < cluckj> cutting away substrate instead of laying it down
07:43 < mosasaur> btw this might help the with staring problem: http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/april/walking-vs-sitting-042414.html?hn
07:46 < mosasaur> cluckj: The idea is to have some kind of 3D sonar pattern, like dolphins can "see" what is inside things. Maybe it is also possible to let those 3D images have influence, like dolphins stunning small prey with their sonar.
07:47 < mosasaur> I don't know of any laser that can harden something from within.
07:48 < cluckj> http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-a-Laser-3D-Printer-Stereolithography-at-Ho/
07:53 < mosasaur> I don't have time to read all that, but I assume this laser hits the surface of a container with liquid, then a new liquid layer is added etc. That is something completely different?
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07:54 < cluckj> it does
07:54 < fenn> mosasaur: 2 photon absorption can harden inside a volume of liquid
07:55 < cluckj> ^
07:55 < fenn> and it's much more precise than beam steering
07:55 < fenn> i don't trust anything on instructables
07:56 < cluckj> the instructable was just poc :P
07:56 < gradstudentbot> Hey, let's write a paper about that.
07:57 < mosasaur> Great. I still think this laser would build up the structure point by point instead of hardening the whole image in one go.
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07:58 < cluckj> http://www.photonics.com/Article.aspx?AID=50989
07:58 < cluckj> better?
07:58 < fenn> ok so you could cook cornstarch with ultrasound beams and make a jello monster
07:59 < fenn> but i don't really see the point
07:59 < fenn> you can just put your hand in the path of the beam and feel it
08:00 < mosasaur> It's not about the thing itself, though there might be interesting spinoffs, it's about creating a testbed for our cochlea tweezer.
08:01 < fenn> what's with you and cochlea tweezers
08:01 < mosasaur> I just invented them, at least the term.
08:02 < fenn> the cochlea is probably the worst thing in the entire universe to try to manipulate with ultrasound
08:02 < fenn> i mean, it's a resonant acoustic receiver ffs
08:02 < mosasaur> You were present at a great moment in time just now.
08:03 < fenn> i can see the use of a solar powered flashlight, but not a submarine screen door
08:04 < mosasaur> cluckj: No, it is the same thing: it prints in millimeters per second instead of "object at once". Can't you see how important a difference that is?
08:04 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/useless_inventions.txt
08:04 < cluckj> o_O
08:05 < cluckj> lol
08:05 < mosasaur> never mind, all the great inventions met heavy resistance at first
08:06 < fenn> heh i actually thought about "Trailer hitch for the Honda Civic"
08:06 < fenn> so copernicus, what will you use these tweezers for?
08:06 < gradstudentbot> I'm working on a paper, I need to be left alone.
08:06 < mosasaur> to fly like superman or to have OBE
08:07 < fenn> but you can just take drugs such as cannabis to do that
08:07 < cluckj> iirc it's already possible to fuck with someone's sense of balance without shooting sound into their ear
08:07 < cluckj> ya, drugs
08:08 < fenn> i feel like we're back to the "wacky adventures with talking dog" again
08:09 < mosasaur> But then I would need to invent the tweezers for the half circle balance organs too. Now is your chance to make history by coming up with term for that.
08:09 < fenn> otolithography
08:09 < cluckj> oh one of my friends was studying a lab in japan that was messing with balance
08:11 < fenn> the remote controlled human stuff?
08:11 < mosasaur> close fenn, but no cigar
08:11 < cluckj> fenn, ye
08:11 < cluckj> s
08:11 < cluckj> maeda laboratory at osaka university?
08:12 < cluckj> maybe...
08:12 < cluckj> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kqbhyLDLAg
08:12 < fenn> looks about right http://academic.odysci.com/author/1010112982718812/taro-maeda
08:13 < cluckj> that dude is wily as hell
08:14 < gradstudentbot> I think using the laser is making me sterile.
08:14 < cluckj> my friend was saying he was trying to cultivate the aura of mad scientist, and succeeding pretty well at it
08:15 < fenn> yeah i saw a tv news segment on this
08:18 < fenn> have you read "manna" by marshall brain? http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm
08:19 < cluckj> what's it about?
08:19 < cluckj> that dude went to my university :)
08:19 < fenn> replacing management positions with AI, remote controlled humans, and the jobless economic recovery
08:20 < cluckj> hahaha
08:20 < fenn> the second half of the book is more optimistic
08:24 < fenn> the main characters get jailbreaked from their welfare prison by free-love linux hippies from australia
08:24 < mosasaur> It's probably just her again, with less singularity.
08:25 < cluckj> lmao
08:25 < fenn> no, manna ("her") is definitely the bad guy, and there's plenty of "singularity" if that's what you want to call it
08:26 < cluckj> I'll add it to my kindle library
08:27 < mosasaur> An artist has to massage the facts a little now and then, fenn.
08:28 < cluckj> you should check out richard powers' Orfeo
08:29 < fenn> gasp. a science fiction book i don't have
08:30 < mosasaur> http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/under.htm?2
08:30 < mosasaur> maybe even better
08:30 < mosasaur> a la limitless
08:30 < fenn> i like ted chiang, i wish he were more widely known
08:31 < fenn> have you read "story of your life"
08:31 < cluckj> fenn, it just came out, and it's about a biohacker
08:32 < cluckj> it's fairly grounded in reality, I'd hesitate to even call it science fiction
08:32 < cluckj> maybe contemporary kinda-ficticious-non-fiction
08:32 < fenn> hm.
08:32 < cluckj> I haven't read any ted chiang
08:35 < mosasaur> Thanks fenn, for reminding me, I was absolutely planning to read that. How could I forget?
08:35 <@kanzure> 06:48 <@jblake> the usual thing for multiplex addressing is to have a layer of north-south wires, then a layer of transistors, then a layer of east-west wires. you leave the wires at high-impedence except for the row and column of the cell you want, which you pull high and low respectively, and that causes the transistor at that cell to switch
08:35 <@kanzure> 06:50 <@jblake> that said, afaik most micromirror devices just use direct addressing driven by local demuxes because they don't have a strong reason to avoid excess layers; indirect addressing is more of a tft/lcd thing
08:36 < fenn> that's called TFT
08:36 < fenn> thin film transistor
08:38 < fenn> i don't think it would work for sonar arrays because you have to drive the outputs with a continuous function. maybe it could work if you updated fast enough, but they're already running at megahertz
08:38 < cluckj> all I have is a borrowed print version of orfeo or I'd send you the ebook :\
08:38 < fenn> there may not be an ebook yet
08:41 <@kanzure> 08:40 <@jblake> yeah the technique i described assumes that you are either driving a device with some memory, or you are only driving a single element at a time
08:41 <@kanzure> hmph
08:42 < fenn> so, the thing about "phased arrays" is they are an array where each element has a phase offset and the whole array is driven with a common function
08:43 <@kanzure> 08:42 <@jblake> if you can afford to stick latches at every site, then you can build an array of shift registers, each covering a whole row of the matrix, and then simultaneously drive a bunch of latches to copy data from the shift registers to the elements
08:43 < fenn> each pixel needs a phase modulator (delay element) but that can be a simple passive element like a capacitor
08:44 < fenn> i have no idea what i'm talking about. gah
08:46 < fenn> there are digital resistors (basically a register controlling a r2r ladder and some transistors) but i dunno about capacitors
08:47 <@kanzure> 08:46 <@jblake> if your elements have really low power draw you can build a DRAM matrix on top of them, and then drive them directly off the cells; the DRAM cells will decay very quickly with a draw of even a single transistor, but it might be slow enough that you can keep up with the refresh demands
08:47 < fenn> um, no.
08:47 <@kanzure> yeah i dunno where he thinks he is going
08:47 < fenn> he's just describing how LCD panels work
08:49 < fenn> maybe a shift register for each pixel and do PWM; the length of the register determines the delay and hence the phase offset
08:50 < mosasaur> Maybe you could reuse or repurpose some of the stuff they use to compute electron orbitals, I mean if we're just trying to talk about vaguely related things.
08:52 <@kanzure> i don't see how that's helpful, even in the vague way
08:52 < mosasaur> there's nice 3d shapes
08:52 < fenn> "A phased array antenna is composed of lots of radiating elements each with a phase shifter."
08:53 < fenn> "Phase shifters switching different detour lines are faster than regulators. In the picture a 4 bits-switching phase shifter which is used in a radar unit is shown. Different detour lines are switched to the signal way. It is created therefore 16 different phase angles"
08:53 < fenn> the detour line switching is like a r2r ladder but with delay lines instead of resistors
08:53 < fenn> this is for a radar system; it wouldn't work with sonar because it's too fast (the delay lines would be too long) but you could switch in capacitors instead
08:54 < fenn> from http://www.radartutorial.eu/06.antennas/an14.en.html and http://www.radartutorial.eu/06.antennas/an16.en.html
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08:55 < fenn> this document sounds like it was written by a french person
08:56 < fenn> i should be reading the tpub sonar operator's manual
08:59 < fenn> blergh i should be sleeping
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09:11 < fenn> maybe you could build digital delay lines inside an fpga
09:12 < fenn> or variable length shift registers (it amounts to the same thing)
09:14 < fenn> the thing they never explained on star trek was that the tricorder and the phaser were actually the same device
09:14 < cpopell> wut? no they weren't
09:15 <@kanzure> that's his point, that they weren't explained
09:15 <@kanzure> pay attention :p
09:16 < fenn> a phaser is a phased array maser, and a tricorder uses phased ultrasound scanners
09:16 < cluckj> it's not a maser, it's a nadion particle emitter
09:16  * cluckj nerd alert
09:17 < fenn> oh yeah? why's it called a "phaser" then
09:17 < cpopell> technobabble
09:17 < cluckj> ^
09:18 < fenn> Originally (from the production notes to TOS), the phaser was a PHoton mASER, since at the time of writing the laser was a relative unknown, and powers were not expected to be very great. Masers, on the other hand, were already very powerful machines which produce very destructive radiation pulses. The term "phaser" has since been revised as a backronym for PHASed Energy Rectification, though
09:18 < fenn> from a physics standpoint even this is of equal semantic content—ordinary incoherent light is not "rectified", or synchronous, whereas lasing and masing emissions are rectified, or synchronous.
09:19 < cluckj> in TNG they retconned it to basically a magic particle generator
09:19 < fenn> it then goes on to talk about "nadion" but obviously this is just some bullshit written by someone who didn't care
09:19 < fenn> "refracted through superconducting crystals" uh huh, and would you like a donut with that?
09:20 <@kanzure> /topic some bullshit written by someone who didn't care
09:20 < cluckj> lol
09:20 < fenn> anyway a phased maser emitter would be pretty badass; it would make it basically impossible to miss your target
09:23 < cluckj> :)
09:24 < fenn> i guess they were using "nadions" because nobody could shoot worth a damn
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09:27 < fenn> a lot of this sci-fi weaponry is based on real stuff, but nobody knows what the original stuff was about because they only know the technobabble
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09:28 < cluckj> so?
09:29 < fenn> scrolling down the star trek weapons page i see "tricobalt device" which is probably named after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_bomb
09:29 < fenn> really a pretty horrible concept
09:29 < cluckj> conceptually it is, I guess
09:29 < cluckj> it's supposed to be a super-powerful photon torpedo
09:34 < fenn> it's weird how similar jordin kare's modular laser launch vehicle looks to a photon torpedo http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/abstracts/897Kare.pdf
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09:36 < cluckj> probably a fan of star trek
09:37 < fenn> oops that was just the abstract. here's the full paper http://fennetic.net/irc/897Kare-modular-laser-launch.pdf see figure 5 on page 7
09:37 < fenn> nah he had good reasons to make it that shape
09:38 < cluckj> hahaha, that's totally a photon torpedo
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09:39 < fenn> it's also a really cool launch system that has properties no other system does, like gradual scalability
09:39 < fenn> you just keep building more and more lasers
09:39 < cluckj> hehe
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09:40 < fenn> star trek was first this time...
09:41 < fenn> http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050912061806/memoryalpha/en/images/9/9e/Mark_XXV_torpedo_interior.jpg
09:42 < cluckj> yes
09:43 < superkuh> Regarding Voyager's use of photons, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIGxMENwq1k
09:43 < superkuh> Er, photon torpedos.
09:47 < cluckj> o_O
09:47 < xentrac> fenn: the first star trek game I played, on I think a TRS-80 in I think about 1980, had "masers" rather than phasers
09:48 < xentrac> it seems like you ought to be able to do a phased maser array
09:48 < xentrac> but I'm not sure why it's necessary
09:49 < fenn> oh definitely, all the solar power satellites from gerard o'neill used phased maser arrays to beam the power back to earth
09:49 < cluckj> more efficient murdering technology
09:49 < fenn> it wouldn't hurt a fly
09:49 < cluckj> wouldn't, or couldn't?
09:50 < fenn> they had an extensive PR campaign trying to prove how harmless it was and how it was impossible to cause any damage
09:50 < xentrac> oh, I guess that is one reason you would want to build a phased maser arrays
09:50 < xentrac> if each of the masers was mounted on a separate satellite
09:50 < xentrac> s/ys//
09:50 < xentrac> argh neverm ind
09:50 < xentrac> you can presumably hurt flies with intense enough microwaves
09:51 < xentrac> even at 2.4GHz a fly spans a substantial fraction of a wavelength
09:51 < cluckj> let
09:51 < fenn> i forget exactly what wavelength they used, but the "rectenna" looked something like a grape trellis
09:51 < cluckj> s get a fly and put it in a microwave
09:52 < cluckj> or something fly-sized
09:52 < cluckj> maybe a gummy bear
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09:52 < fenn> heh john mccarthy strikes again! http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/oneill1.html
09:52 < cluckj> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dLvnmRi0rk
09:52 < cluckj> thanks youtube
09:52 < fenn> .title
09:52 < yoleaux> Microwave Gummy Bears
09:56 < dingo> http://www.freebsd.org/security/advisories/FreeBSD-SA-14:08.tcp.asc
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09:58 < fenn> the solar power satellite maser was a really ratty little device because it was mostly a vacuum tube operating in the vacuum of space, so it was a few wires next to some other wires and some plates to act as a capacitor
09:58 < xentrac> cluckj: I'm surprised that the gummy bears mostly melted
09:59 < cluckj> lol
09:59 < xentrac> a microwave oven is only on the order of a kilowatt per square meter
09:59 < cluckj> I'm not....but I've put all kinds of stuff in the microwave
09:59 < xentrac> barely more than direct sunshine (which can also melt gummy bears, but has a shorter wavelength)
10:00 < xentrac> although this depends on how much stuff you have in the microwave to absorb things
10:00 <@kanzure> there was a scifi story somewhere about interstellar von neumann probes using maser beams for propulsion(?) or communication
10:00 < xentrac> but masers are not limited to a kilowatt per square meter
10:00 < cluckj> sunlight is spread all across the spectrum though, a household microwave is at a specific frequency
10:01 < JayDugger> Or you might go read the 1975 NASA design study on solar power satellites and space settlement.
10:01 < xentrac> yeah, which is presumably why one gummy bear survived: a node
10:01 < cluckj> yeah it was right in the middle
10:07 < JayDugger> McCarthy's making the reasonable assumption that all mass comes from Earth, which differs from http://settlement.arc.nasa.gov/75SummerStudy/Table_of_Contents1.html, and closes with a snide comment.
10:09 < JayDugger> He should have stuck with the line of argument that terrestrial fission reactors out-perform SPSS, except in rare cases where you can reasonably transmit power.
10:09 < xentrac> I should read through McCarthy's site at some point
10:09 < xentrac> even though it's too late to answer him
10:09 < fenn> it's absurd to think that anyone would lift huge amounts of light metals up from earth for the purpose of industry
10:09 < JayDugger> Oh, and that they'd use photovoltaics, which is only one of two possibilities.
10:10 < JayDugger> Pretty much, yes.
10:10 < JayDugger> IIRC, the design study assumed lunar mining and on-orbit refining.
10:11 < JayDugger> I'll say it though--probably perfectly doable with enough nuclear pulse rockets. (Having flogged not one, but two dead horses, I'll shut up.)
10:11 < sheena> allergy shots are just distilled allergens.. possible to make at home?
10:12 < fenn> mccarthy seemed pretty in favor of the idea of SPSS but he also thought nuclear power was more practical, so, uh, okay..
10:13 < fenn> JayDugger: what is a nuclear pulse rocket?
10:13 < fenn> like project orion?
10:14 < fenn> sheena: take magnesium supplements, much safer and more effective in the short term
10:14 < xentrac> JayDugger: ...terrestrial launch using nuclear pulse rockets?  That turns out to have some significant disadvantages even if it works properly
10:14 < sheena> fenn: results in what, biologically?
10:15 < xentrac> I mean, the number of excess cancer deaths from just the US nuclear test program was significant, if not staggering
10:15 < xentrac> and you're talking about something similar to the US nuclear test program *for every launch*, if I understand right (same as fenn)
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10:16 < fenn> sheena: magnesium is required for degranulation of mast cells and it also lets the muscles relax after a sneezing fit
10:17 <@kanzure> if it's really just distilled allergens, then yes you could probably do some sort of chromatography
10:17 <@kanzure> chromatography purification
10:17 < fenn> do allergy shots really work?
10:17 < sheena> yes
10:17 < xentrac> fenn: also it was a super awesome postmodern dance performance in the 1970s, perhaps the most influential postmodern dance performance of all time
10:17 <@kanzure> sheena: have you checked http://alibaba.com/ for cheapo allergy shots?
10:17 < sheena> dosage on magnesium? price?
10:17 < sheena> kanzure: scary shit
10:18 <@kanzure> bah
10:18 < JayDugger> xentrac: 1-10 more deaths  per year, IIRC.
10:18 <@kanzure> you live with people, they'll find you if something goes wrong
10:18 < xentrac> kanzure: alibaba is not reliable for drugs
10:18 <@kanzure> xentrac: evidence?
10:19 < JayDugger> I'd call the price worth it, but I also think thousands of deaths per year in auto accidents a small price to pay for giving up animal-powered vehicles. YMMV.
10:20 < fenn> sheena: 500mg or so of magnesium citrate; i get liquid oral solution, i guess the price is about $0.2 per day
10:20 < xentrac> JayDugger: http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/issue.aspx?y=0&content=true&id=982&css=print&page=6 suggests 11000 total deaths resulting from about 15 years of tests
10:20 < JayDugger> The military implications of having a very large, extremely fast, very well armored spaceship are left to the reader.
10:21 < xentrac> JayDugger: I don't think 11000 deaths per launch is in any way a reasonable price
10:21 < fenn> sheena: magnesium oxide is also commonly sold but it isn't absorbed very well
10:21 < sheena> fenn: you have seasonal allergies or year round? how much does it help? I'm already on two Rx meds and an OTC
10:22 < xentrac> "About 22,000 radiation-related cancers, half of them fatal, might eventually result from external exposure from NTS and global fallout,"
10:22 < fenn> seasonal and to mold and various herbal substances that people like to burn. it helps a lot, has no side effects, and seems to improve life in general
10:22 < fenn> it's estimated that 90% of americans are deficient in magnesium
10:22 < sheena> seems worth trying. i'll pick some up in town on monday maybe.. have you tried dietary magnesium?
10:23 < xentrac> I think this article was written in the 1990s so we might have better numbers today, JayDugger?
10:23 < JayDugger> xentrac--That number is for atmospheric testing, not for launches  of a hypothetical  nuclear pulse rocket.
10:23 < fenn> it's difficult to get enough magnesium from your diet
10:23 < fenn> you have to eat a lot of snails and spinach
10:23 < JayDugger> No one's likely to build one.
10:23 < cluckj> or nuts?
10:24 < xentrac> JayDugger: right; I'm suggesting that a launch of a hypothetical nuclear pulse rocket would be roughly equivalent to the entire atmospheric test program
10:24 < fenn> modern nuts contain large amounts of inositol hexaphosphate (phytic acid) because they are grown with phosphate fertilizers
10:24 < sheena> pumpkin seeds?
10:24 < xentrac> mmm, inositol
10:24 < fenn> this binds the magnesium and makes it unavailable, although it still shows up in the assays
10:24 < fenn> pumpkin seeds works
10:24 < fenn> i guess
10:24 < xentrac> I should cook my pumpkin seeds
10:25 < sheena> cocoa
10:25 < sheena> jeesus
10:25 < sheena> excuses to eat BROWNIES?
10:25 < sheena> im in
10:25 < cluckj> nice
10:25 < sheena> http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5471/2
10:25 < xentrac> the same article also says ". In a related activity, we evaluated the risks of thyroid cancer from that exposure and estimated that about 49,000 fallout-related cases might occur in the United States, almost all of them among persons who were under age 20 at some time during the period 1951-57, with 95-percent uncertainty limits of 11,300 and 212,000"
10:25 < fenn> heh. cocoa also stimulates the adrenal system and is a vasoconstrictor, which causes magnesium loss
10:25 < xentrac> which seems strange because 49000 > 22000
10:25 < cluckj> fenn, wouldn't that mean that almost all vegetables contain phytic acid?
10:26 < xentrac> cluckj: yes, almost all vegetables contain some amount of phytic acid
10:26 < fenn> cluckj: it's a storage molecule mostlye present in seed coatings (bran)
10:26 < fenn> mostly*
10:26 < xentrac> but in different amounts
10:26 < cluckj> hm
10:27 < xentrac> I think thyroid cancer is less fatal than average cancer but the 22000 was supposed to be the total cancer
10:27 < sheena> oh damn. no brownies :(
10:27 < fenn> you can soak with rye berries overnight or in yogurt to break up the phytic acid but it's a pain
10:27 < JayDugger> Yeah, I don't know where you get that number, xentrac. There's a much lower one  (1-10 deaths per launch) in the popular history (Dyson, George. Project Orion – The Atomic Spaceship 1957-1965. Penguin. ISBN 0-14-027732-3). Even that number is a back-of-the-envelope calculation, IIRC.
10:27 < xentrac> JayDugger: I pasted the URL where I got that number above
10:27 < cluckj> would roasting break up the phytic acid? that would mean almonds are fine
10:28 < xentrac> Project Orion was, I think, proposed to use nuclear pulse rockets in deep space
10:28 < JayDugger> Yeah, and I don't see from that article how you equate one with the other.
10:28 < sheena> seaweed?
10:28 < fenn> sheena: go ahead and eat cocoa if you want..
10:28 < xentrac> rather than for terrestrial launches
10:28 < JayDugger> Spirulina won't help.
10:28 < xentrac> oh
10:29 < sheena> fenn: lol i do eat some, but if consuming mass quantities of it wont help me, meh
10:29 < xentrac> I guess this explains it: "Early versions of this vehicle were proposed to take off from the ground with significant associated nuclear fallout"
10:29 < JayDugger> I think that was proposed later, xentrac. IIRC, they proposed towing far out to sea to minimize fallout.
10:29 < fenn> seaweed doesn't have much magnesium. it does have iodine and selenium tho
10:29 < xentrac> JayDugger: that would help a lot
10:29 < cluckj> lol, why would you launch a nuclear powered rocket, using the nuke on earth...
10:29 < JayDugger> Sure. Not all nuclear explosives are bombs .
10:29 < cluckj> why not use a harmless chemical fuel for the first few stages......................
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10:30 < xentrac> also, though, it took a long time to appreciate the cancer risks, because the cancers surfaced over a long period of time
10:30 < JayDugger> Because it far out-performs everything else.
10:30 < fenn> why not just use a gas core nuclear thermal rocket
10:30 < cluckj> especially in the "giving people cancer" area
10:30 < xentrac> so if someone did an estimate in the 1970s or 1980s they might easily come up with a number that was low by an order of magnitude or two
10:31 < xentrac> fenn: yeah, that might work
10:31 < JayDugger> Let me know when you want to try the experiment. :) I volunteer for the crew.
10:31 < xentrac> Dyson's book is from 2003
10:31 < fenn> or the "nuclear lightbulb" if the open gas core is too much pollution
10:31 < xentrac> sure, the crew won't be in the fallout zone!
10:31 < cluckj> lol
10:31 < sheena> 1/3 of a cup of pumpkin seeds is a daily allowance.. but i wonder how absorbable it is. maybe more so if i put it in my smoothie? fenn
10:31 < JayDugger> Exactly the point.
10:31 < xentrac> haha
10:32 < JayDugger> fenn, I think the engineering was better understood for Project Orion's flavor of paper spaceship.
10:32 < fenn> sheena: cluckj yes roasting breaks up phytic acid
10:32 < xentrac> fenn: cool, thanks
10:32 < JayDugger> Certainly at the time, and perhaps still so today.
10:32 < xentrac> I roast my pumpkin seeds anyway
10:33 < xentrac> they are yummier that way
10:33 < cluckj> so the .5cu of almonds I eat a day probably gives me enough bioavailable Mg
10:33 < cluckj> ?
10:34 < fenn> how many grams is that
10:34 < fenn> 20 almonds contains 20% of your daily value of magnesium
10:34 < xentrac> 8.3e-27, fenn
10:34 < xentrac> according to units
10:34 < fenn> lol
10:34 < xentrac> but that's because it's interpreting cu as "centi-atomicmassunit"
10:35 < cluckj> lol
10:35 < xentrac> 50 daltons of almonds!
10:35 < cluckj> about 70g of almonds
10:35 < fenn> ok so twice that per day
10:36 < gradstudentbot> Well, it looks better if you see it through a UV scope.
10:36 < fenn> the other thing that helps with allergies is rinsing your nose out in the morning BEFORE you start sneezing
10:37 < fenn> and neti pots are evil, just snort the water and blow it out
10:37 < xentrac> oh raelly? I didn't nkow that
10:38 < xentrac> that sounds like a lot of work to equal the volume of a neti pot, but hey, no specialized and unavailable equipment!
10:38 < JayDugger> If you'd like to know more about the various proposed Project Orion paper space ships, http://aerospaceprojectsreview.com/ev1n5.htm, where you can buy reprints of the declassified presentations on the subject.
10:39 <@kanzure> are those files available
10:39 < xentrac> JayDugger: thanks, that's awesome!
10:39 < JayDugger> Only for purchase, I'm afraid.
10:39 < xentrac> are they in the public domain?  I guess they were authored by General Atomics, so maybe not
10:40 < JayDugger> That fellow supports himself by craphounding the originals, cleaning them up, and reselling the results.
10:40 <@kanzure> "V1N5 download order: $8.00"
10:40 < JayDugger> The originals, as USG proposals, probably were public domain. His reworked reprints, probably not.
10:41 < fenn> craphounding isn't a very sustainable business
10:41 < xentrac> if they were authored by USG employees, then they'd be in the public domain, but copyright law doesn't cause you to abandon copyright in something just because you send a copy to the government
10:41 < JayDugger> IIRC, he also uses some of the drawing for CAD work for scale models of the paper spaceships.
10:42 < JayDugger> xentrac, that's generally true. I don't know how it works for project proposals done under contract.
10:42 < xentrac> fenn: depends. probably not in this case
10:42 < JayDugger> Craphounding is hard to make pay, but with luck you can make a hobby break even.
10:42 < JayDugger> (I used to craphound role-playing games.)
10:43 < xentrac> it depends a lot
10:43 < xentrac> here in Buenos Aires there are thousands of people who make a living recycling cardboard, aluminum, and copper from the garbage
10:44 < fenn> JayDugger: how does orion compare to big dumb solid rocket boosters and tether momentum exchange?
10:44 < fenn> for transport to LEO
10:44 < xentrac> the time a CRT survives on the sidewalk before someone comes along and breaks off the yoke to recycle it is typically under half an hour, depending on how busy the neighborhood is
10:45 < fenn> poor CRT :(
10:45 < xentrac> it's dangerous, dirty, and deadening work
10:45 < xentrac> but it's apparently sustainable
10:45 < fenn> i heard they were going to pay them to do something else
10:45 < xentrac> and presumably landfills now have higher concentrations of many elements than the original ores do
10:46 < xentrac> who were?
10:46 < fenn> to get all the donkey carts off the street. so then people bought donkeys to say they were a recycler
10:46 < xentrac> no, I have never seen a donkey cart in Buenos Aires
10:46 < xentrac> horse carts and person carts all the time
10:46 < xentrac> but no donkeys
10:46 < fenn> the government was going to pay recyclers to find some other profession
10:46 < xentrac> maybe you're thinking of a different country
10:47 < xentrac> also horse carts have been illegal in Buenos Aires for a century (but I still see them on a weekly basis)
10:47 < JayDugger> Anyway, if Project Orion isn't sufficiently shocking, look up the history of nuclear powered aircraft in the 50s and 60s (the Soviet stuff is really frightening), the proposed Orion battleship that JFK cancelled, and Project Pluto (an air-breathing supersonic nuclear ramjet powered cruise missile). That last one seemed to make sense until ICBMs started working, then everyone involved thought better of it.
10:47 < JayDugger> (Fun fact: Ralph Merkle once claimed his Dad worked on Project Pluto.)
10:48 < sheena> ireally want something ubuntu frirendly that will read my pdf ebooks to me
10:48 < sheena> anyone?
10:48 <@kanzure> festival?
10:48 < xentrac> I didn't think Project Orion was shocking
10:48 < xentrac> it just turned out to be a bad idea
10:49 <@kanzure> festival does text-to-speech on linux
10:49 < xentrac> festival works, but I like espeak better
10:49 <@kanzure> you can use pdftotext to get text out of a pdf
10:49 < JayDugger> sheena, aloud? Ah...there's jasper.github.io, I think, which does speech synthesis on a RaspPi.
10:49 < JayDugger> Some PDFs.
10:49 < JayDugger> Some PDFs suck.
10:49 < sheena> aloud, yeah. not all pdfs, either. some mobi n shit. ugh
10:49 <@kanzure> pdftotext filename.pdf outputfile.txt; cat outfile.txt | festival –tts
10:49 <@kanzure> you can convert mobi to pdf with calibre
10:49 < xentrac> pdftotext Beyond\ war\ The\ human\ potential\ for\ peace.pdf >(espeak)
10:50 < fenn> sheena: i was playing around with flite the other day: http://fennetic.net/irc/read_out_loud
10:51 < xentrac> JayDugger: jasper.github.io?
10:51 < xentrac> .title http://jasper.github.io/
10:51 < yoleaux> Page not found · GitHub Pages
10:51 < sheena> nothing i can add to calibre to read for me? :D
10:51 < JayDugger> Damn. Sorry. Let me look, rather than remember.
10:51 < xentrac> sheena: that sounds like a good idea but I don't know of it
10:51 <@kanzure> sheena: there's the open-with plugin in calibre
10:51 < xentrac> kanzure: I think you mean --tts
10:51 <@kanzure> copy paste error
10:51 < JayDugger> https://jasperproject.github.io/
10:51 < xentrac> .title
10:52 < yoleaux> Control everything with your voice
10:52 < xentrac> that's awesome!  not text-to-speech but speech-to-textandstuff
10:56 < fenn> kanzure: does that command line actually work well?
10:56 <@kanzure> no clue, i don't use it
10:56 < xentrac> fenn: I tested mine
10:57 < xentrac> it runs but I wouldn't say it works well
10:57 < xentrac> among other things there's no way to pause or rewind
10:57 < fenn> i noticed there's actually a lot of weird punctuation that gets pronounced, and the phrasing is bad, so that's why read_out_loud has so many sed lines
10:58 < fenn> control-Z works for pausing
10:59 < xentrac> is flite festival-lite?
10:59 < xentrac> pdftotext Beyond\ war\ The\ human\ potential\ for\ peace.pdf >(espeak --stdout >tmp.wav) & mplayer tmp.wav gives you pause, rewind, and speed control
10:59 < xentrac> mplayer -af scaletempo might work better
11:03 < superkuh> I put together a little perl script to deal with punctuation, scientific notation and jargon, etc, in TTS.
11:03 < superkuh> It is not pretty but it works.
11:04 < superkuh> http://superkuh.com/tktts.html
11:04 < superkuh> It is very close to what you wanted, sheena
11:06 < sheena> if i have nautilus installed, do i need to do the 'new' one?
11:07 < superkuh> No.
11:07 < superkuh> That's just for desktops with MATE instead of gnome2.
11:09 < superkuh> Someday I'll use PAR::Packer so users don't have to install all the perl module dependencies externally.
11:10 < sheena> i have lxde,not gnome..
11:10 < superkuh> If you use nautilus as the file manager everything should work fine.
11:12  * fenn highfives sheena
11:12 < sheena> fenn: gnome 3 and unity and ugh. not for me! i have some.. very particular "wants" and "needs" from my desktop environment, and lxde fit.. i tried probably 5 or 6.. gah
11:13 < sheena> superkuh: i gotta go do some animal things, but when i get back, i'll work on setting this up. might poke you and kanzure into helping me :)
11:13 < xmj> sheena: ever used FBReader?
11:13 < JayDugger> Yeah, good point. On Android, FBReader has fairly good TTS.
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11:14 < sheena> nooo
11:14 < superkuh> I'll be asleep soon. But if we're on at the same time later I am willing to help with the idiosyncrasies of my script (there are many).
11:14 < xmj> i recently looked into FBReader when updating it to 0.99.6 on FreeBSD, yet.. tts is nothing interesting to me
11:14 < sheena> back in a while, thanks guys. i'll check in for more info on fbreader
11:15 < gradstudentbot> Where are the hot plates?
11:15 <@kanzure> under the atomic force microscope
11:15 < fenn> inside the fusion reactor
11:15 < fenn> eatin all ur fuel
11:16 <@kanzure> https://github.com/machine-intelligence/Botworld "Botworld is a cellular automaton developed at MIRI as a concrete environment in which to study self-modifying agents embedded in their environment. (Contrast this with "classical" models of artificial intelligence where agents interact with the environment only via I/O channels.)"
11:17 <@kanzure> http://intelligence.org/files/Botworld.pdf
11:17  * fenn snores
11:17 < JayDugger> literate haskell?
11:17 <@kanzure> just evidence that singinst is doing something
11:18 < fenn> they should have written it in postscript so the document itself became intelligent
11:18 <@kanzure> for some value of something
11:19 < JayDugger> Yeah...ask them about Flare when you next see them. http://flarelang.sourceforge.net/
11:19 < JayDugger> But snark aside, I do feel happier that they have some code to show.
11:20 < gradstudentbot> Do I use a one or two sided t-test for that?
11:20 < fenn> past my bedtime.. good time of day gentlebots
11:21 < JayDugger> Mine too, good night everyone.
11:22 < cluckj> laters
11:25 <@_archels> kanzure: I don't deal with the wetware myself. all my neurons are silicon
11:25 <@kanzure> hmph
11:26 <@kanzure> can you find us a squishy neuron person?
11:26 <@_archels> I'm surrounded by them, what do you need to know/get done?
11:26 <@kanzure> i mean someone who would be willing to idle in here and tolerate the themes
11:27 <@_archels> hm there might be one guy who's interested. not sure about his status on the H+ front
11:27 <@kanzure> feel free to downplay that
11:27 <@_archels> yeah, it's only the name and theme of the channel
11:28 <@kanzure> shrug :)
11:28 < cluckj> lol
11:29 <@_archels> I think this is him https://github.com/wonkoderverstaendige
11:30 <@_archels> based on the email address and avatar, heh
11:30 <@kanzure> "Python/PyUSB interface to the FL593FL evaluation board for the TeamWavelength FL500 laser diode driver"
11:30 <@kanzure> "Software for electrophysiology data acquisition"
11:30 <@kanzure> "Optical Stimulation Waveform Generator"
11:30 <@kanzure> hm!
11:30 <@kanzure> .title http://open-ephys.org/
11:31 < yoleaux> Open Ephys
11:31 <@kanzure> argh, it should say "open-source electrophysiology"
11:31 <@kanzure> https://open-ephys.atlassian.net/wiki/display/OEW/Home
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11:50 <@_archels> http://elpisfil.org/
11:50 <@_archels> .title
11:50 < yoleaux> ELPIS Foundation for Indefinite Lifespan
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13:05 <@kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%BCtal_Legend
13:05 <@kanzure> "Tim Schafer, the game's creative director, was inspired to create the game by his own past musical experiences. The game features the character of Eddie Riggs, voiced by and modeled after Jack Black, a roadie who is transported to a fantasy world inspired by the artwork of heavy metal album covers. Eddie becomes the world's savior, leading the down-trodden humans against a range of supernatural overlords using a battle axe, his Flying V ...
13:05 <@kanzure> ... guitar that can tap into the magical powers of the world, and a customizable hot rod."
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13:14 <@heath> http://www.projectara.com/mdk/
13:20 <@_archels> WA says: 7.13 billion people alive on Earth
13:20 <@_archels> I wonder which 1.3 billion they are excluding
13:21 <@_archels> seriously, what do you think about the project, heath?
13:22 <@heath> i want it to succeed
13:24 <@_archels> where do you see this in 10 years?
13:27 <@heath> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2OEKL1w__4
13:27 <@heath> .title
13:27 < yoleaux> Project Ara Developers Conference Day 1
13:28 <@heath> _archels: I don't know
13:30 < delinquentme> https://medium.com/editors-picks/892b57499e77
13:30 < delinquentme> The particular figure of 80% of antiobiotics are used in farm animals ...
13:30 < delinquentme> is fucking nutts
13:31 <@_archels> "thermal imager module", "pulse oximeter module"
13:31 <@_archels> now you're talking
13:31 < gradstudentbot> Sure, I've been spending a lot of time at a pub.... well, pubmed at least.
13:35 <@_archels> interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2OEKL1w__4&feature=share
13:35 <@_archels> er http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2OEKL1w__4&feature=share&t=6h7m44s
13:37 <@_archels> Electro-permanent magnets for module attachment
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13:39 <@_archels> I was a bit skeptic when I first heard about this idea, but it does have its advantages
13:39 <@_archels> they seem to be creating an open ecosystem around the phone itself
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13:51 <@kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drE54ctrHBY
13:51 < yoleaux> Fresnel Lens Solar Foundry Obsidian Farm 3800 ˚ F   2100˚ C Fresnel Optics
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14:09 <@_archels> had to pull this off of Google Books in the end, Amazon doesn't even carry it
14:09 <@_archels> ftp://ftp.turingbirds.com/misc/Longevitize%20-%20Essays%20on%20the%20Science,%20Philosophy%20and%20Politics%20of%20Longevity%20-%20Franco%20Cortese%20(ed.)%202013.pdf
14:10 <@_archels> Longevitize - Essays on the Science, Philosophy and Politics of Longevity - Franco Cortese (ed.) 2013
14:10 <@kanzure> /misc
14:13 <@_archels> yeah, maybe it's time for /transhumanism or so
14:13 <@_archels> directories are an inane method for organising files, anyway
14:14 <@kanzure> "I completely agree that Elsevier journal subscription income is probably 1 billion USD (or more), much more than 500,000,000 USD as I had early suggested. This only goes to show the massive shortfall in our understanding of where this total comes from? We have data from Brazil, data from Russell Group universities in the UK... we need far to more data to get a clearer picture of how Elsevier is amassing its largesse of income from academic ...
14:14 <@kanzure> ... journal subscriptions. I note that there are over 9000 universities in the world (http://univ.cc/index.html) - not that all of these will pay Elsevier taxes. Not to mention the countless (anyone have a sensible figure?) non-university research institutes & businesses that have journal subscriptions. I know from experience that many natural history museums, by necessity have journal subscriptions e.g. the Natural History Museum (London), ...
14:14 <@kanzure> ... the AMNH (NY), the Field Museum (Chicago)... 1 billion spread across 10,000 universities + research institutes + businesses is only 100,000 USD per year per entity. Thus > 1 billion USD income from Elsevier journal subscriptions alone would seem (sadly) very plausible to me. This wasted sum represents our complete failure to collectively bargain for fair & equitable access to knowledge. Without doubt we could provision this knowledge, ...
14:14 <@kanzure> ... open access for everyone, for at least 1/2 to 1/10 of its current inflated cost!"
14:24 <@kanzure> hehe http://seekingalpha.com/article/269679-oil-industry-profit-margin-ranks-fairly-low-there-are-bigger-fish
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14:25 <@kanzure> elsevier might be second on that list? not sure
14:46 <@kanzure> "Finally another base assumption is that "being a major player" is the only success condition. Would Bitcoin be an utter failure if instead of becoming as big as the USA economy it never became larger than the Australian economy? Australia isn't all that awful of a place, you know."
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15:41 <@kanzure> ugh
15:42 < eudoxia> what is it kanzure-chan
15:45 <@kanzure> neglected to take stimulants today
15:45 <@kanzure> it is not going well
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15:46 < eudoxia> what nootropics did you take again? just adderall?
15:49 <@kanzure> yep i have a very plain diet of adderall and soup
15:49 < eudoxia> tomato soup is the best soup
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16:06 < Lemminkainen> bone marrow and lentil soup with phosphatidylserine and resveratrol on the side
16:09 < xentrac> adderall is your stimulant of choice?
16:14 <@kanzure> it does really amazing things for me in a way that other stimulants don't
16:14 < xentrac> that's interesting! how is it different?
16:15 <@kanzure> (after lots and lots of testing of other prescription stimulants)
16:15 <@kanzure> well it basically makes me not an extremely hyperactive moron
16:15 < xentrac> they don't all do that?
16:15 <@kanzure> nope
16:15 < xentrac> I mean, all the amphetamines, methylphenidate, and cocaine
16:15 <@kanzure> i have postulated that it is maybe because of the non-standard delivery mechanisms in adderall xr
16:16 <@kanzure> but, that doesn't explain why the non-xr adderall is also effective for me, where as ritalin and vyvanse are not
16:16 < xentrac> no
16:16 <@kanzure> i mean, i certainly feel a stimulant effect with ritalin and vyvanse, but it's not the same
16:17 <@kanzure> i should enter competitive pacing
16:18 < gradstudentbot> I don't remember the paper, but someone definitely did that.
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16:21 <@kanzure> xentrac: one example issue is that off of the drug, i seem to have either reduced or more twisted working memory, where scenarios or arguments that i construct just go in an endless loop because i keep replacing local information with other information (usually related to something i was doing a few minutes ago)
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16:23 <@kanzure> where did that "there's no working memory" hypothesis thing go? hrm.
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16:36 < nmz787_i> youtube just showed me a GE commercial for a hand-held ultrasound system
16:37 <@kanzure> vscan
16:37 <@kanzure> it's $7900
16:38 < nmz787_i> I'd contacted mobisante a while ago, they got back to be surprisingly
16:38 < nmz787_i> I asked about veterinary usage
16:38 < nmz787_i> thinking i'd be able to use my buddies farm to test out the device on myself (i'd do the cows too)
16:38 <@kanzure> animal devices are not as heavily regulated by the fda
16:39 < nmz787_i> they mentioned only having data for horses, i belive
16:39 <@kanzure> selling these machines for $30-$50k is a neat trick
16:40 <@kanzure> so far i have not been impressed by their knowledge of electronics
16:42 <@kanzure> seeing as how few of them have fully-addressable 2d arrays other than by directly soldering wires everywhere..
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16:43 < nmz787_i> I'd like to see a review of the $1000 aliexpress items
16:43 < nmz787_i> "3d ultrasound"
16:46 <@kanzure> often 3d ultrasound just means "we are using phasing"
16:46 <@kanzure> i suspect that the $300 transducers on ebay and alibaba do actually work, but i think they could be manufactured for much less
16:47 <@kanzure> also, a lot of the "3d" stuff is sort of pathetic because most ultrasound machines do not do image reconstruction or 3d reconstruction from the collected data (like PET/MRI people do)
16:47 <@kanzure> probably because ultrasound is less cool
16:47 < Lemminkainen> everything could be manufactured for less in a command economy
16:47 < Lemminkainen> I don't see how that point is really relevant to anything
16:47 < Lemminkainen> if you think something is overpriced then you are free to try to do better
16:48 <@kanzure> i think you've missed the part of the conversation where i affirmed i was interested in doing so
16:50 < Lemminkainen> then please do, but perhaps do a market analysis to see what margin you need to command to recoup your time and money into the project within a reasonable timeframe
16:50 <@kanzure> about $2 billion/year in sales globally
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17:31 < nmz787_i> wow, embedded artists ships insanely fast
17:33 < nmz787_i> i ordered on the night of the 27th (sunday) and UPS just delivered the package, which said it came from Sweden... via UPS Saver
17:33 < nmz787_i> I feel like my package slipped into 2nd day air delivery or something, or there is some weird direct route from sweden to oregon
17:34 < nmz787_i> huh, tracking says Sweden, Germany, Philadelphia, Luoisville, Portland
17:36 < FourFire> kanzure, so, new spaceX rocket engine "lands" in the ocean, in a storm, reaches 0 velocity
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17:43 < eudoxia> one time we got our mail missent to uganda :c
17:44 < nmz787_i> more importantly, the spacex news page I loaded informed me of this hplus related event http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25399-engineered-vaginas-grown-in-women-for-the-first-time.html
17:45 < nmz787_i> paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S01460544-4
17:45 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/2f5a0214040decddce8b3c104232be0b.txt
17:45 < nmz787_i> paperbot: http://dx.doi.org10.1016/S0140-6736(14)60542-0
17:45 < paperbot> ConnectionError: [Errno -2] Name or service not known (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/models.py", line 625, in send)
17:45 < nmz787_i> paperbot:  http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(14)60542-0
17:46 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/d76f2f3901a71757b24c55cedabc8186.txt
17:49 < nmz787_i> oh, heres the right doi
17:49 < nmz787_i> paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(14)60544-4
17:49 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/a2395502c641e365f61ff0dd81e0112b.txt
17:49 < nmz787_i> 'Engineered autologous cartilage tissue for nasal reconstruction after tumour resection: an observational first-in-human trial'
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18:57 <@kanzure> dcary: hi
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19:22 <@kanzure> ball grid array escape pattern https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Practical_Electronics/PCB_Layout#Board_Thickness_and_Layers
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19:53 <@ParahSailin> cool tip: if your kickstarter is more than two years to deliver, verify shipping addresses before shipping
19:55 <@kanzure> otherwise?
19:55 <@kanzure> it's clear that they already don't respect timeliness
19:55 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure
19:56 <@ParahSailin> as long as they send me a replacement if whoever lives at my old apartment decides its their birthday
19:59 < kanzure> fenn: how about a 2d array made up of rows of 1d linear arrays, where each 1d linear array directly routes to a nearby ribbon connector dropping through to under the pcb.
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20:18 < kanzure> list of products banned from importing into the united states http://info.usitc.gov/sec/exclusion.nsf/72b1a4074ed08da7852567fd0064ad21?OpenView&Start=90
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20:22 < kanzure> "Certain Birthing Simulators and Associated Systems"
20:22 < kanzure> "Certain Automotive Vehicles and Designs Therefore"
20:23 < kanzure> "Certain MEMS Devices and Products Containing Same"
20:23 < cluckj> hehehe birthing simulators
20:23 < kanzure> "Certain Purple Protective Gloves"
20:24 < cluckj> purple protective gloves? how are we supposed to defend ourselves against rogue artifacts?
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20:26 < delinquentme> OK ideas:
20:29 < delinquentme> If we knew what the specific chemicals inside the bloodstream were used to keep tissues alive ...
20:30 < delinquentme> we could use that to create an environment to persist cells in ,  SPECIFICALLY within in a controlled environment ... optimized to minimize damage to the DNA
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20:31 < kanzure> let's call it tissue culture
20:31 -!- Whysguy [602a2aac@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.42.42.172] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:32 < Whysguy> hello
20:32 < kanzure> Whysguy: howdy
20:33 < sheena> hello!
20:33 < delinquentme> so then how to minimize DNA damage?
20:33 < Whysguy> Hello . . . My friend sent me here.  My friend is the one typing this message.
20:33 < yashgaroth> intracellular DNA or what?
20:33 < kanzure> coercion is a great basis for friendship
20:33 < Whysguy> So this nick represents two people.
20:33 < cluckj> that's fuckin deep
20:34 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, yeah
20:34 < kanzure> Whysguy: are you the electrophysiology person, or are you the haitian clandestine mice breeder?
20:35 < yashgaroth> if cells are alive they'll be minimizing DNA damage, I'm sure you can get a couple people in here to go on about antioxidants and shit to prevent damage, but cells will handle it well in the timescales you can keep them alive in cell culture
20:35 < Whysguy> He is trying to learn about Linux and I am about to leave, but I don't want to leave him with questions.
20:36 < catern> kanzure: god both those people sound so interesting
20:36 < kanzure> catern: yeah it's a circus in here..
20:36 < catern> some day with luck I will be that interesting
20:36 < delinquentme> paperbot, http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v20/n3/full/nm.3464.html
20:36 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnm.3464
20:37 < Whysguy> I have brought him here because this is a great community to ask questions.  He is practising asking questions.  The linux channels require registering nick, he has not done that yet. But.  I need to go work on a lab.
20:38 < kanzure> and which one are you?
20:38 < cluckj> catern, are you boring?
20:39 < catern> cluckj: i'm hoping that i'm becoming less boring recently. i think i may be boring at the moment. however i have high standards because of who i spend time around, e.g. the people here
20:40 < dcary> Asking questions in a way that elicits useful answers is surprisingly difficult. It takes a lot of practice.
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20:41 < kanzure> .title http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v20/n3/full/nm.3464.html
20:41 < yoleaux> Rejuvenation of the muscle stem cell population restores strength to injured aged muscles
20:41 < cluckj> catern, why do you think you're boring right now?
20:41 < kanzure> cluckj: are you channeling eliza?
20:42 < cluckj> no, channeling gradstudentbot
20:42 < gradstudentbot> Dropped my sample.
20:42 < kanzure> typical
20:43 < cluckj> Where are the hot plates?
20:43 < catern> cluckj: causally? because people were just mentioning really interesting people, and i was comparing myself to them
20:43 < cluckj> Well, it looks better if you see it through a UV scope.
20:44 < kanzure> cluckj: there's a little bit of gradstudentbot inside all of us
20:44 < gradstudentbot> This laproscopic camera is so easy to use.
20:44 < cluckj> there is a lot of grad student in me
20:45 < cluckj> catern, okay
20:45 < catern> cluckj: is there a proportional amount of bot?
20:46 < cluckj> sadly, yes
20:46 < kanzure> cluckj is 80% insulin pump by mass
20:47 < cluckj> hey I gained some weight recently so it's like 77% now
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20:51 < cluckj> I think I'm back at 150 D:
20:51 < cluckj> thanks Eli Lilly and Ben & Jerry's
20:54 < kanzure> i should write more material for gradstudentbot
20:54 < gradstudentbot> I need to read that paper soon.
20:54 < justanotheruser> cluckj: how tall are you if 150 is fat?
20:54 < justanotheruser> You should allow us to add entries
20:54 < cluckj> I'm 6' tall
20:55 < kanzure> i am accepting entries, but really it's just a giant text file
20:55 < cluckj> 150 is not fat at all
20:55 < cluckj> I still need to gain 10-15 more lbs
20:55 < kanzure> he is fat on the inside
20:55 < cluckj> lol
20:55 < justanotheruser> Oh I see
20:55 < justanotheruser>  I thought you were upset because of the D:
20:56 < cluckj> yes, I am
20:56 < justanotheruser> You're upset that you're gaining weight?
20:56 < cluckj> I'm upset that I'm not gaining it faster
21:00 < yashgaroth> have you tried food
21:00 < cluckj> o_o
21:00 < cluckj> holy shit that's a good idea
21:00 < yashgaroth> just like chug a bottle of olive oil, go nuts
21:01 < cluckj> my butthole isn't liking that idea
21:02 < yashgaroth> just show it who's boss
21:02 < yashgaroth> or move to the south for a year, that seems to work magic
21:02 < kanzure> next time on irc m.d.: butt problems
21:02 < kanzure> "just install the neosphincter, how bad could it be?"
21:03 < cluckj> hahaha
21:04 < yashgaroth> with new sphinctumab™, I'm in control of my butthole, free to live life my way
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21:06 < kanzure> life is like a rowboat, gentle but streaming, something something statements not evaluated by the FDA
21:06 < Technicus> Whysguy: What's goin on over there?
21:06 < yashgaroth> may cause irreversible loss of sphincter, consult your doctor
21:09 < cluckj> lol
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21:13 < cluckj> with this video playing during the voiceover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHzqXyewgRw
21:13 < kanzure> "commerce control list, 2014" 30 MB
21:14 < kanzure> "commerce control list, 2013" 158 MB
21:14 < kanzure> what happened?
21:18 < jrayhawk> the amount of fat you can take depends on how beefy your gal bladder is and how much soluable fiber you throw down there with it
21:19 < jrayhawk> that said, usually protein excess is how people ramp up IGF-1 signaling
21:20 < jrayhawk> or possibly use exogenous IGF-1, though i don't think there's supposed to be an intracellular pathway for that, so if it works, you've got other problems
21:22 < jrayhawk> absorption pathway, that is
21:23 < AshleyWaffle> http://www.reddit.com/r/FanFiction/comments/24fjb0/writing_prompt_frozen_scifi_w_bitcoin_prize/
21:23 < kanzure> no redditz
21:24 < catern> rationalist frozen, perfect
21:25 < cluckj> my gallbladder is probably fine based on the high amounts of fat and fiber I eat
21:25 < cluckj> not fine enough to handle a bottle of oil
21:25 < cluckj> :)
21:25 < jrayhawk> now i want to take the half-quart challenge
21:26 < cluckj> ew
21:26 < jrayhawk> if only i even halfwy trusted the olive oil industry to actually put olive oil in the things they advertise as olive oil
21:26 < kanzure> record video evidence for uh, science
21:26 < cluckj> yes.
21:26 < cluckj> videotape that
21:27 < gradstudentbot> I think I'll be done in 6 years.
21:28 < kanzure> hrmm
21:30 < kanzure> so i'm trying to diff the commerce control list between each year
21:30 < kanzure> to see which technologies have been added or removed (haha like anything is ever removed)
21:30 < kanzure> except the older archives don't seem to include title 15 of the "electronic code of federal regulations"
21:31 < kanzure> http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=42852290e804a04592520fb67c85a987&node=15:2.1.3.4.45&rgn=div5
21:32 < kanzure> "Crude oil described by ECCN 1C981 (Crude petroleum, including reconstituted crude petroleum, tar sands, and crude shale oil listed in Supplement No. 1 to this part). For specific licensing requirements for these items, see §754.2 of this part."
21:33 < kanzure> "Advance notification of exports. You must notify BIS at least 45 calendar days prior to exporting any quantity of a Schedule 1 chemical listed in Supplement No. 1 to this part to another State Party. This is in addition to the requirement to obtain an export license under the EAR for chemicals controlled by ECCN 1C350 or 1C351 for any reason for control, or from the Department of State for Schedule 1 chemicals controlled under the ITAR. Note ...
21:33 < kanzure> ... that such notifications may be sent to BIS prior to or after submission of a license application to BIS for Schedule 1 chemicals controlled subject to the EAR and under ECCNs 1C350 or 1C351 or to the Department of State for Schedule 1 chemicals controlled on the ITAR. Such notices must be submitted separately from license applications."
21:34 < kanzure> oh look they are kind enough to give you a list of interesting chemicals: http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=42852290e804a04592520fb67c85a987&node=15:2.1.3.4.29&rgn=div5
21:34 < kanzure> "Chemicals, except for those listed in Schedule 1, containing a phosphorus atom to which is bonded one methyl, ethyl or propyl (normal or iso) group but not further carbon atoms,"
21:35 < kanzure> i wonder if any of these are present in human metabolism or gut bacteria metabolism
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21:43 < kanzure> "b. Equipment capable of automatically correcting speed-of-sound propagation errors for calculation of a point"
21:44 < kanzure> geeze wtf "d.4. “Specially designed” to maintain the alignment of phased array or phased segment mirror systems consisting of mirrors with a segment diameter or major axis length of 1 m or more;"
21:46 < kanzure> "X-ray tomography systems for three dimensional defect inspection;"
21:46 < kanzure> there is a lot of crap on this list
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22:05 < kanzure> wow one year it was reduced by 0.1 MB
22:10 < sheena> i want to invent a helmet that fits on a dog that holds a can of that cheese Easy Cheese , that has some kind of lever so when you press a remote button, it squeezes the tip and the cheese comes out into the dog's mouth
22:13 < kanzure> if it was just a push tube, you could have a mechanism that pushes from the "bottom" (probably the top) of the can so that the material has to go out the nozzle
22:14 < sheena> true. not useful?
22:14 < kanzure> well you could just open up the easy cheese and put it into another can
22:15 < justanotheruser> Thoughts on darkmarket/open bazaar?
22:16 < kanzure> "Rather, the can contains a piston and a barrier plastic cap which squeezes the cheese through the nozzle in a solid column when the nozzle is pressed and the propellant expands in volume. The propellant, therefore, does not mix with the cheese. This explains why the can has a small rubber plug on its base. Normal aerosol cans are charged with all of their contents through the single opening at the top, but spray cheese cans are separately ...
22:16 < kanzure> ... charged with the product through the top and propellant through the bottom. The can design also ensures that the cheese can be dispensed with the can upright or inverted."
22:16 < kanzure> justanotheruser: haven't looked at the technical implementation
22:16 < justanotheruser> Okay
22:17 < kanzure> sheena: how much do you have to press and in what direction
22:18 < sheena> kanzure: the tip needs to move maybe 3/4" or a bit more? and in any direction off centre?
22:18 < kanzure> and you put a straw into the dog's cheek or something?
22:20 < sheena> sure, or just have it set up so as it comes out, it hits their nose or face.. once they figure that out, they'll lick it
22:22 < kanzure> i'm sure there's a simpler way to do this, but you could have a servo with a metal bar that hits the tip
22:22 < kanzure> s/hits/pushes against
22:27 < kanzure> so one half turn to start feeding, one half turn to stop feeding
22:27 < kanzure> in the opposite direction
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22:36 < kanzure> "all of which are subject to the export licensing authority of the U.S. Department of State, Office of Defense Trade Controls. (See 22 CFR parts 120 through 130.)"
22:36 < kanzure> argh there are other control lists?
22:37 < kanzure> "Exports of unclassified technical data" "(a) License. A license (DSP-5) is required for the export of unclassified technical data unless the export is exempt from the licensing requirements of this subchapter. In the case of a plant visit, details of the proposed discussions must be transmitted to the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls for an appraisal of the technical data. Seven copies of the technical data or the details of the ...
22:38 < kanzure> ... discussion must be provided."
22:38 < kanzure> wow "Patents. A license issued by the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls is required for the export of technical data whenever the data exceeds that which is used to support a domestic filing of a patent application or to support a foreign filing of a patent application whenever no domestic application has been filed."
22:39 < kanzure> whaaat "Disclosures. Unless otherwise expressly exempted in this subchapter, a license is required for the oral, visual or documentary disclosure of technical data by U.S. persons to foreign persons. A license is required regardless of the manner in which the technical data is transmitted (e.g., in person, by telephone, correspondence, electronic means, etc.)."
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23:01 < kanzure> "Framing cameras with recording rates greater than 225,000 frames per second"
23:09 < kanzure> "0A981   Equipment designed for the execution of human beings as follows (see List of Items Controlled)."
23:15 < fenn> it's my birthday and my kickstarter toys still aren't here
23:23 < fenn>  The mean length of the year is 365.2425 days; this is within one ppm of the current length of the mean tropical year (365.24219 days), and even closer to the current vernal equinox year of 365.2424 days that it aims to match.   (i just want to know what number to put in my script!)
23:26 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
23:29 < fenn> that's not even close to siderealyear = 365.256360417
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23:50 < fenn> screw it, i'm 1.01 gigaseconds
23:56 < delinquentme> ok need novelty
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23:56 < delinquentme> something different from 4chan
23:58 < fenn> meditate
--- Log closed Thu May 01 00:00:56 2014