--- Log opened Thu May 01 00:00:56 2014 00:03 < delinquentme> HM! 00:03 < delinquentme> fenn, +1 00:04 < delinquentme> PS: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/903107259/scio-your-sixth-sense-a-pocket-molecular-sensor-fo 00:05 < delinquentme> this SEEMS quite a bit like the telspec ... though they've claimed they have working sensors and are currently analyzing medication 00:09 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:09 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:25 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-205-118-100.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-227-186-59.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:29 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:31 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-177-134.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:32 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:35 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:44 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-177-134.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:51 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:51 -!- nsh__ [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:53 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-177-134.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:57 -!- nsh__ is now known as nsh 01:04 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-177-134.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:12 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-157-34-190.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:14 -!- dcary [46b171ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.177.113.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:22 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-177-134.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:32 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:32 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-177-134.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:37 -!- kardan [~kardan@2a02:810d:1100:af8:2459:9219:914a:2a99] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:39 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:43 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-177-134.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:51 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:10 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:26 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:46 < fenn> i think i'm going to put a big honkin parabolic wifi antenna on my nookmobile 03:03 -!- kardan [~kardan@2a02:810d:1100:af8:2459:9219:914a:2a99] has quit [Quit: Ciao!] 03:03 -!- kardan [~kardan@2a02:810d:1100:af8:2459:9219:914a:2a99] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:10 < fenn> woah i just realized this gps carrier interferometry technique could be used for tracking wifi devices or extremely accurate localization from wifi beacons 03:11 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:11 < fenn> you could have a head up display of wifi sources and ssid and even unencrypted packet contents 03:14 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.38] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:25 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.38] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:33 < fenn> superkuh was your interferometer for stellar or terrestrial observation? 03:34 < superkuh> Solar. 03:35 < fenn> were you able to determine the time of day with it? 03:37 < superkuh> Is that a joke? 03:39 < fenn> no. i am interested in using radio interferometry to measure angles to satellites and other sources. also learning about phased array limitations i.e. angular resolution and resolving ambiguities 03:42 < fenn> basically i have no idea what your interferometer was for, but i dont know anyone else who has built anything similar 03:44 < superkuh> http://superkuh.com/rtlsdrinterferometer.html 03:48 < chris_99> that looks very impressive! 04:14 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:18 -!- mosasaur [~mosasaur@178.227.77.234] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:22 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:35 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:49 < kanzure> .title http://doar-e.github.io/blog/2014/04/30/corrupting-arm-evt/ 04:49 < yoleaux> Corrupting the ARM Exception Vector Table 04:51 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:52 -!- dcary [46b171ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.177.113.174] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:52 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:53 < kanzure> dcary: hi 04:53 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@100-98-15.connect.netcom.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:07 < kanzure> happy mailing list membership reminder day 05:11 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:15 < kanzure> http://kentonv.github.io/capnproto/ (instead of using straight up protobufs) 05:23 < fenn> instead of a rigid circuit board for transducer electrode connections, it probably makes sense to make a custom flat pack cable (etched copper film on polyimide or PETE) that folds over to connect both sides of the transducers. i can make a sketch if that is confusing 05:24 < fenn> for row/column it would rotate 90 degrees 05:32 < kanzure> i'll take a sketch 05:37 < xmj> http://yourbrainonporn.com/quitting-porn-prepare-more-vibrant-emotions 05:39 < kanzure> seems intuitively wrong to me, because most kids don't watch porn 05:39 < kanzure> so the guy who claims he didn't know grief before seems highly unlikely 05:39 < kanzure> and uninteresting 05:57 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:00 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/transducer_flat_cable.jpg 06:02 < fenn> if you you use row/column addressing you only need sqrt(n) wires, but you only get 1/n^2 of the signal per element. if you connect two wires to each element you need 2n wires, but can monitor them completely. i'm probably missing something stupid like common ground 06:03 < fenn> common ground is n+1 wires 06:04 < fenn> it amounts to 3/4 of the area if you have a constant wire/space pitch distance 06:05 < fenn> something something common mode noise rejection 06:05 < kanzure> what does the folding achieve? why connect both sides 06:07 < fenn> to use both sides of the cable.. you can squeeze more wires in that way 06:07 < fenn> instead of wasting space on vias (and vias break with vibration and probably also with ultrasound vibration) 06:07 < kanzure> oh. hm. 06:08 < fenn> oh, also you have to connect electrically to both sides of the chunk of piezo material 06:08 < fenn> think of them as capacitors 06:09 < kanzure> what about sandwhiching pcb boards for top/bottom of te elements? 06:09 < fenn> pcb boards are rigid and anisotropic, i'd expect they would scatter a lot of ultrasound 06:09 < kanzure> in general what annoyance factor should i assign to etched copper films 06:10 < fenn> same as pcb, but less vendor availability 06:10 < fenn> they're pretty handy, i might just switch to using flex cables exclusively 06:11 < fenn> it's common to receive the plastic backing film and the copper foil separately, and you have to laminate them together 06:12 < fenn> i dont know why they do that 06:13 < fenn> wow so ultrasound signals are in the megahertz, that means they are pretty much radio waves when traveling in wires 06:13 < fenn> and wires carrying signals are vulnerable to RF interference and capacitive crosstalk etc 06:14 < kanzure> i think there's a ribbon cable with alternating insulation and wiring 06:14 < fenn> but why use a cable and a connector and a pcb when you can just use the cable itself 06:15 < fenn> is it possible to just buy this 06:16 < kanzure> fully assembled ultrasound transducers are a bit pricey compared to what i think they could be built for 06:17 < fenn> oh the thing i haven't thought about is that piezos usually run at high voltage and that might not work with my tight spacing 06:21 < fenn> "our engineers provide you with an acoustic 'sandwich' that includes ceramic and backing with face layers or a lens that would your requirements. multi-element assemblies can include flex circuitry terminated in a connector of your choice" and there is a picture of a ceramic grid next to a brown/orange flex cable like i am talking about 06:21 < fenn> that would match your requirements* 06:22 < fenn> here's a sucky version of the image from the pdf http://www.blatek.com/images/home_feature3.jpg 06:23 < fenn> i wonder if it's typical to use a common ground electrode as the "face layer" 06:26 < fenn> "B mode ocular ultrasound transducers typically operate at the 10MHz to 50MHz frequency range. Popular general imaging B-scans can range from 2.0MHz through 10MHz." 06:27 < fenn> why are b-scan transducers round if they produce a 2D image 06:29 < kanzure> clipping? 06:31 < FourFire> kanzure, porn thing smells like bad science 06:31 < fenn> it seems like it would be rectangular 06:32 < fenn> "finally, freedom from porn!" lol 06:32 < kanzure> i am highly skeptical of anyone who tries to claim that people who disgree with them are unfeeling monsters 06:33 < fenn> what if i want to be an unfeeling monster 06:33 < kanzure> you're quite welcome to be 06:34 < kanzure> but we're not disagreeing about something 06:34 < kanzure> so i don't see the relevance 06:35 < kanzure> is xmldiff my only option? 06:36 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:37 < fenn> you'd think there would be a standard serialization format and order 06:38 < fenn> but unordered lists exist for some reason? 06:39 < fenn> i don't think i've ever thought "gee my life would be so much easier if i didn't know what order this would appear in on the other end" 06:39 < mosasaur> unfeeling monsters and gwerny relevance doubters 06:40 < fenn> i've also never thought "gee i wish i could worry more about things and have more stress" which apparently the anti-porn website claims as advantages 06:43 < fenn> most of their quotes sound like they're from people who are clinically depressed, and happen to be male 06:46 < kanzure> xmldiff gave me a fucking segmentation fault 06:47 < kanzure> after 4 minutes 21 seconds 06:47 < dcary> fenn: For JSON, there is a standard serialization format and order: Canonical JSON http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Canonical_JSON 06:48 < kanzure> i am xmldiffing the commerce control list between 1997-2013 06:54 < fenn> there you go kanzure, just convert to Canonical JSON and use diff 06:55 < fenn> then publish it as a git repository 06:55 < kanzure> unfortunately i'm not sure policy like this is really a usable format 06:56 < fenn> but you can see what changed right? 06:56 < kanzure> "Any technology that conforms to section AE451049 but not to section 744-B39J, unless it has the following properties: " 06:56 < fenn> are there technology import control lists? 06:58 < kanzure> here's a technology import control list from canada, http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._604/page-1.html 06:59 < kanzure> "(e) tank destroyers" 06:59 < FourFire> " i am highly skeptical of anyone who tries to claim that people who disgree with them are unfeeling monsters" I'm a mostly unfeeling monster, does that mean I'm addicted to porn? 06:59 < FourFire> No. 06:59 < kanzure> i did not claim it means you are addicted to porn, fuck you 06:59 < kanzure> how could you possibly make that mistake 07:01 < kanzure> "Provolone cheese and Provolone types of cheese that are classified under tariff item No. 0406.90.51 or 0406.90.52 in the List of Tariff Provisions set out in the schedule to the Customs Tariff." 07:01 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:01 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has quit [Changing host] 07:01 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:02 < FourFire> mosasaur, since when did gwerny become a word? 07:03 < fenn> this thing looks straight out of GI-JOE http://i.ytimg.com/vi/StC9nRB_AVY/0.jpg 07:03 < cluckj> O_o 07:03 < fenn> .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StC9nRB_AVY 07:03 < yoleaux> US MILITARY unveils ADVANCED ANTI MISSILE LASER made by Lockheed Martin 07:03 < kanzure> what makes it advanced 07:04 < fenn> the caps lock does 07:04 < mosasaur> FourFire: I don't understand 07:05 < kanzure> let me try: ADVANCED ULTRASOUND TRANSDUCER FOR FDA-BANNED BIO-MILITANTS 07:05 < kanzure> yep it works 07:06 < dcary> fenn: "high voltage ... tight spacing" I see that IPC2221, section 6.3.1, "Internal conductors", says that internal conductors with 0.1 mm spacing are good up to 100 V. 07:07 < FourFire> fenn, military laser weapons are a thing now 07:07 < fenn> dcary: so running them at 90V is advisable? :\ 07:07 < FourFire> soon we might have space based laser weapons 07:07 < fenn> FourFire: whatever was in that image i don't think it was a laser, it looks like a GI-JOE main battle tank 07:08 < fenn> wtf why do i need javascript to search by image 07:08 < kanzure> FourFire: you are bad at conversations 07:09 < FourFire> kanzure, thank you for reminding me, I didn't need to be. 07:09 < fenn> conversations are for the weak! 07:09 < kanzure> maybe you could try better or something? 07:09 < fenn> real men thump their chests with explosives 07:09 < kanzure> this is a persistent trend from you 07:10 < kanzure> no need for chest thumping, just don't misintrepret almost everything everyone says to you 07:13 < kanzure> fenn: so i should just dump these into a git repo? 07:14 < kanzure> as-is, or after finding an xml2json converter? 07:14 < fenn> "Rheinmetall plans to test its laser weapons mounted on different vehicles and to integrate a 35mm revolver cannon into it." 07:14 < gradstudentbot> You don't happen to have any more virgin flies, do you? 07:14 < FourFire> kanzure, you seem to be consistently hostile, I do want constructive criticism on how I communicate however. 07:14 < fenn> that's probably why it looks like a big gun 07:14 < FourFire> mosasaur, forget it. 07:15 < kanzure> FourFire: i am very hostile to crap. just don't do it. instead, make statements based on what others are saying. 07:16 < FourFire> You mean, that I am consistently dropping no-context lines, and it annoys you? 07:17 < fenn> kanzure: i mean it would be cool to see a historical progression of the list, formatted as json. each commit would be the list from each year 07:17 < kanzure> no, you are dropping vaguely contextually relevant lines, but they are boring and your line of thought is backtracking 07:17 < FourFire> backtracking... for who exactly? 07:18 < kanzure> for example, did you really think that fenn didn't know about military laser weapons. that's sort of a weird statement to make after he linked to something about military laser weapons! 07:18 < FourFire> You, or is there some sort of channel consensus on what may and may not be discussed after a certain pre-specified unit of time, which I am not aware of? 07:18 < mosasaur> FourFire: So you didn't get I was making a joke by giving a gwerny response to your question? 07:18 < FourFire> mosasaur, yes, sorry. 07:18 < kanzure> there is definitely a channel consensus of sorts 07:19 < kanzure> or, rather, baseline reasonableness 07:19 < kanzure> fenn: well, any xml2json recommendations? :\ 07:19 < FourFire> Alright, I admit that I was not being entirely serious about either the laser comment, or the word comment, I'll try to be more strictly relevant in the future 07:19 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:20 < kanzure> and the part where you implied that i implied you're addicted to porn is really bonkers 07:20 < fenn> polyus was an orbital weapons platform containing a 1 megawatt CO2 laser, launched in 1987 for the purpose of shooting down US SDI satellites. it was "man tended" and the design eventually became the first pieces of the international space station (says "MIR-2" on the side): http://www.buran-energia.com/polious/polious-desc.php 07:21 < FourFire> I what now? Ok I think you were reading a bit too far into that absent comment 07:21 < kanzure> 06:59 < FourFire> " i am highly skeptical of anyone who tries to claim that people who disgree with them are unfeeling monsters" I'm a mostly unfeeling monster, does that mean I'm addicted to porn? 07:21 < FourFire> I was making a rhetoric statement, not aimed at you specifically 07:21 < FourFire> you see my next line 07:22 < kanzure> it's still a bad and annoying line of reasoning that doesn't work 07:22 < kanzure> nobody was making the claim you were responding to 07:22 < FourFire> the article was. 07:22 < kanzure> the article was shit 07:22 < FourFire> (but yes I get your point, It would be easier if I was less vague) 07:23 < FourFire> and I was joining in on mocking it, just like you and fenn 07:23 < kanzure> are crows supposed to make dog barking noises? 07:24 < kanzure> fenn: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/commerce-control/archives/ 07:24 < FourFire> can you demonstrate a soundclip? 07:24 < FourFire> I've personally witnessed birds which can mimic chainsaws 07:24 < kanzure> no, i don't have good enough microphones 07:24 < FourFire> and camera shutters 07:26 < fenn> can they mimic lyre birds? 07:27 < dcary> fenn: Yes, keep the internal conductor spacing at least 0.1 mm, and the external conductors and component lead spacing at least 0.13 mm, and conformal coat everything, and IPC says that 90 V or 100 V is fine. 07:27 < fenn> i'm sure the conformal coat helps a lot 07:27 < fenn> 0.1mm is tiny 07:28 < fenn> dcary: is the relationship between spacing and acceptable voltage linear? 07:30 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@cpe-24-92-63-104.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:31 < fenn> what the hell is that schema? Explanation

The Code of Federal Regulations is a codification of the general and permanent rules published in ... 07:32 < fenn> maybe it's a schema for legal documents 07:34 < fenn> ugh navigating legalxml.org is like trying to get to the ISO standards documents 07:35 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@cpe-24-92-63-104.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:36 < fenn> not that it helps anything, but i guess it's this: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/bulkdata/CFR/resources/CFRMergedXML.xsd 07:37 < fenn> i have no opinions on xml to json conversion. maybe parse it into a tree with your favorite parser and dump with your favorite dumper? 07:37 < FourFire> kanzure, my point is asking being, that depending on the type of dog noise, it could very well be normal for crows to make it 07:37 < dcary> fenn: Yeah, even though almost all my circuits run at 5 V or less, I don't think I've ever used less than 6 mil spacing (about 0.15 mm spacing). 07:37 < dcary> fenn: Yeah, it's pretty linear -- see p. 39 of http://www.the-bao.de/divers/ipc2221.pdf for details. 07:41 < fenn> interesting document 07:43 < fenn> a common problem i have is determining the name of a particular common connector 07:45 < fenn> there are a relatively small number of IC packages, but it seems like an almost infinite number of connectors and very easy to order the wrong one 07:49 < dcary> fenn: It seems that most PCB fabs now claim they can make boards with 4 mil trace / 4 mil space (which is 0.1 mm trace / 0.1 mm space). Picking a random manufacturer from my list, Cirexx claims they can do flex circuits with 0.003 inch trace/gap. 07:51 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-177-134.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51 < gradstudentbot> His lab is so awkward. 07:53 < fenn> if the speed of sound in water is 1484m/s then one wavelength at 10MHz is 0.1484mm so i guess it's possible that we'll need that level of spacing 07:54 < fenn> i say "if" because it changes 07:55 < fenn> "In salt water that is free of air bubbles or suspended sediment, sound travels at about 1560 m/s." 07:58 < cluckj> if you're using a small enough tank size, the wavelength changes at (maybe) insignificant digits 08:00 < fenn> anyway it's a lot smaller than radio waves of the same frequency 08:02 < dcary> fenn: Do we really need so many different kinds of connectors? Bits are bits, right? https://xkcd.com/927/ 08:02 < fenn> uh what "Floating point numbers are not allowed in canonical JSON." 08:04 < fenn> i wonder what that grammar representation format is called 08:04 < fenn> int: digit digit1-9 digits - digit1-9 - digit1-9 digits 08:04 < fenn> that didn't paste correctly 08:07 < fenn> dcary: not all connectors are used for transferring bits 08:08 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@179.126.71.80] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:08 < fenn> i do wish we had stopped at mini USB 2.0 though 08:09 < juri_> mini usb 3 is weird. :) 08:09 < fenn> also completely pointless 08:09 < fenn> just use sata 08:10 < fenn> or ethernet. we should have just invented a tiny power over ethernet connector for TTL voltages 08:10 < fenn> wtf is USB, an abomination 08:11 < dcary> fenn: Yeah, the format at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Canonical_JSON is apparently some informal variant of Extended Backus–Naur Form (EBNF). What is the name for the kinds of pretty grammar diagrams used at http://json.org/ ? 08:11 < fenn> railroad diagrams? 08:11 < fenn> i meant the format used to specify EBNF grammars in json 08:12 < fenn> there was this "kwalify" thing for validating yaml files, but it was kinda wonky 08:13 < fenn> can we just call a slash a slash, "solidus" pff 08:15 < dcary> fenn: Thanks. I learned a new term today, for something I've been looking at for decades: "railroad diagram" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/railroad_diagram 08:16 < fenn> Some of the popularity of the JSON data interchange format is due to its representation in railroad diagrams.[citation needed] CITATION NEEDED 08:17 < dcary> fenn: people use cables to carry power (generally in only one direction) and bits (often in both directions). What else are connectors used for? 08:18 < mosasaur> I know all this talk about standards and data formats and circuit boards and chips makes you feel special and mathy engineeric but to me it's just like the discussion is stranded into some morassy lowland where it's impossible to spread my wings. 08:19 < fenn> analog signals, modulated power, AC power, DC power, blood of the innocent dinosaurs 08:19 <@ParahSailin> one might reasonably expect glob.glob in python to attempt to give lexicographically ordered output 08:19 <@ParahSailin> one would be wrong 08:21 < fenn> somehow we've managed to stick to 120V 60Hz sinusoidal for 100 years 08:21 < fenn> at least in the US 08:21 < cluckj> thanks technological somnambulism 08:22 < fenn> it's because houses were never designed to be taken apart 08:23 < fenn> tesla wished he could have switched to 1KHz 08:23 < fenn> [CITATION NEEDED] 08:24 < cluckj> lol 08:24 < FourFire> fenn I've read your citation 08:24 * cluckj drains FourFire of blood and summons nikola's ghost 08:24 < FourFire> he regretted making AC at 60Hz because he made that better 08:25 < cluckj> OH GREAT GHOST PLEASE REMEDY THIS INTERNET CITATION ATTEMPT 08:26 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:27 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:28 < kanzure> fenn: instead of parsing xml, i was thinking something like "take any word that has a certain frequency less than some threshold i pick, such that sentences/phrases say unique technology names, and the rest is skipped" 08:45 < dcary> Yeah, I heard that all the early designs for the international space station used 20 kilohertz power distribution because it is technically superior to other alternatives considered -- DC, 50 Hz, 60 Hz, 400 Hz. The rumor is that the ISS switched to DC power distribution for "political reasons". 08:46 < mosasaur> With the coming solar power era maybe we'd be better off with low voltage DC. 08:51 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.70] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:53 < fenn> i get 20KHz and 50/60Hz, but why 400Hz? 08:53 < fenn> oh. "Every time you fly in commercial airliners, the 400HZ power produced by the alternators on each engine" 08:56 < fenn> some day we'll have a wall with a matrix of plugs sorted by V and F 08:58 < fenn> and auto-retracting cables 08:59 < kanzure> and the wall will laugh at you 08:59 < mosasaur> devices will become smaller and use less power and will be closer to our neurons 09:00 < fenn> we'll exchange data as puffs of coded DNA, carried by radiation pressure from lasers in our eyes 09:01 < mosasaur> wait, are you talking about sex? 09:01 < fenn> woah, dude, don't be gay 09:02 < fenn> it's only sex if your gametes touch 09:02 < kanzure> not according to nevada law 09:03 < fenn> i defer to bill clinton 09:03 < fenn> excuse me, the 42nd president of the united states of america 09:03 < cluckj> lol 09:05 < fenn> what does "is" mean anyway 09:05 < kanzure> if eleitl is asking for 2 spikerboxes from me, does that mean he probably doesn't have that equipment already 09:05 < fenn> "if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement..." 09:06 < kanzure> i find it hard to believe that he legitimately wants an introductory kit itself 09:09 < fenn> does the spikerbox actually do anything or is it just a glorified audio connector? 09:09 < mosasaur> fenn: let's just stick to laser encoded data streams, I mean it even works for high bandwidth satellite communication. 09:09 < kanzure> comes with some silly ipad app i think 09:10 < fenn> mosasaur: never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of sperm hurtling down the jupiter brain 09:14 -!- senior [senior@m90-129-71-30.cust.tele2.se] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:15 < fenn> hoela senior 09:15 -!- senior [senior@m90-129-71-30.cust.tele2.se] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 09:15 < kanzure> you overwhelmed him 09:16 < fenn> should i have said "Hej då!" 09:16 < kanzure> yes 09:16 < mosasaur> everything moves at light speed anyway, it's just that some things have more of a time like motion vector. 09:17 < gradstudentbot> If I write this paper, then maybe I can use that as my thesis? 09:17 < fenn> temporal wormholes and time-like mazes, a thesis submitted by gradstudentbot to fulfill the requirements of the advanced institute of internet studies 09:17 < gradstudentbot> I don't think my PI remembers me. 09:19 < fenn> huh "temporal wormhole" isn't a trope? 09:20 < kanzure> only an arxiv.org trope 09:20 < kanzure> were you around when arxiv.org announced their new "business model"? 09:21 < fenn> -_- 09:21 < fenn> in the future, just don't tell me horribly depressing things 09:22 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.70] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:22 < kanzure> it's not as bad as you think 09:22 < fenn> haven't we learned yet not to build centralized systems? 09:22 < kanzure> parent university didn't want to fund it on their lonesome, so now some additional institutions are agreeing to chip in 09:23 < kanzure> i don't think the particle physics people have ever not built a centralized system 09:23 < kanzure> (http was client-server, no "he invented the interwebs!") 09:24 < kanzure> *no "but he invented 09:24 < fenn> i never really understood the original use case for http 09:24 < fenn> was a web server supposed to be like a wiki? 09:24 < kanzure> maybe it was a reaction to gopher stuff 09:26 < kanzure> i should make gwern analyze the commerce control list, he likes that sort of mindless data handling, right? 09:27 < fenn> http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW/Proposal.html where did the "stored information" come from? 09:28 < fenn> gosh i still have this problem all the time. "once you found out that the name of Joe Bloggs is listed in an incomplete description of some on-line software, it is not straightforward to find his current electronic mail address." 09:30 < kanzure> this is why you must practice the art of stalk and lurk 09:30 < fenn> obviously what happened was that Time Spammers invaded CERN in 1988.1 and inserted their confounding protocol into the HTTP spec 09:31 < kanzure> makes sense, time travelers probably prefer particle accelerator facilities 09:32 < fenn> they use the temporal monopoles generated by bogon-bogon collisions 09:32 < xmj> kanzure: i'm curious. do you know what gwern actually does with his life? 09:33 < kanzure> evidence suggests reading and writing, and not much else. 09:33 < kanzure> i haven't seen him do much other than that 09:33 < fenn> "I am a freelance writer & researcher. I have worked for or published in MIRI3 (formerly SIAI), CFAR, A Global Village, Cool Tools, Quantimodo, New World Encyclopedia, Bitcoin Weekly, Mobify, Bellroy and private clients" 09:34 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 09:35 < kanzure> eventually he will be doxed 09:36 < fenn> "I’ve always preferred to work on existing applications and libraries than to go write my own." 09:36 < kanzure> ah, so double NIH 09:36 < fenn> an interesting viewpoint 09:36 < kanzure> it's because i can't remember which way NIH is supposed to work 09:37 < kanzure> am i supposed to prefer my own stuff, or the stuff of others? and if i do either one, which one confers NIH syndrome upon me? 09:37 < fenn> put billions of taxpayer dollars in, get patents out 09:37 < JayDugger> NIH syndrome? 09:37 < kanzure> .wik NIH syndrome 09:37 < yoleaux> "Not invented here (NIH) is the philosophy of social, corporate, or institutional cultures that avoid using or buying already existing products, research, standards, or knowledge because of their external origins and costs." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIH_syndrome 09:38 < fenn> NIH syndrome was discredited when it was revealed that the originator of the concept had a conflict of interest 09:38 < cluckj> lol 09:38 < JayDugger> Nat'l Institutes of... never mind 09:38 < xmj> NIH is when you reinvent the wheel because you didn't do it yourself. 09:38 < JayDugger> .wik goo 09:38 < yoleaux> "Disambiguation: Goo" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goo 09:38 < JayDugger> That's new. 09:38 < kanzure> huh? "NIH is when you reinvent the wheel because you didn't do it yourself." 09:38 < JayDugger> It might have been the National Institutes of Health. 09:39 < fenn> NIH is when you didn't invent the wheel because somebody else invented it first 09:39 < gradstudentbot> So, there's this really good conference in Spain that I want to attend. 09:39 < kanzure> gradstudentbot: have you submitted the abstract to the paper? 09:39 < gradstudentbot> Are you ever going to publish that? 09:39 < JayDugger> .wik help 09:39 < yoleaux> "Disambiguation: Help" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help 09:39 < fenn> .help 09:39 < yoleaux> fenn: I'm yoleaux. Type .commands to see what I can do, or see http://dpk.io/yoleaux for a quick guide. 09:40 < fenn> huh 09:40 < fenn> .commands 09:40 < yoleaux> Commands are divided into categories: services, general, api, demos, admin. Use .commands to get a list of the commands in each. 09:40 < fenn> did i seriously not try that 09:40 < gradstudentbot> Does this look contaminated to you? 09:41 < JayDugger> Found it. Thanks. 09:41 < JayDugger> .commands services 09:41 < yoleaux> Commands in services: acronym, add-command, command-help, del-command, dety, geo, leo, moon, ngrams, nokiageo, o, r2r, roll, rot13, shipping, suggest, swhack, thesaurus, title, tw, twho, weather, yi. Use .help to get information about them. 09:42 < mosasaur> .moon 09:42 < yoleaux> Waxing Crescent (0.074) 09:42 < fenn> .geo 1 times square 09:42 < yoleaux> fenn: One Times Square, New York, NY 10036, USA at 40.756,-73.986 to wit http://google.com/maps?q=40.756,-73.986 09:43 < JayDugger> .g spikerbox 09:43 < yoleaux> https://backyardbrains.com/products/spikerbox 09:44 < JayDugger> Ah. Silly me. 09:44 < kanzure> NIH: never invented haha 09:45 < JayDugger> Ding! a new error code for skdb. 09:45 < JayDugger> sudo skdb make -me -a nuclear_pulse_rocket returns NIH. 09:46 < fenn> --me 09:46 < kanzure> don't one of you owe me a technology tree 09:47 < JayDugger> Fair enough, 09:47 < fenn> .ngrams effete 09:47 < yoleaux> :( 09:47 < fenn> .ngrams effete snob 09:47 < yoleaux> :( 09:47 < fenn> .help ngrams 09:47 < yoleaux> Compare the frequency of words/phrases in an n-grams database 09:48 < fenn> that doesn't help 09:48 < fenn> .ngrams "effete snob", "jaded wanker" 09:48 < yoleaux> :( 09:49 < kanzure> fenn: what's missing from http://pinboard.in/ ? 09:49 < fenn> ads? 09:49 < fenn> fluff? 09:50 < kanzure> i mean for tagging 09:50 < fenn> well it's not part of ikiwiki... 09:51 < kanzure> do you really want all of your tagged data to be based on ikiwiki's compiler engine thing 09:51 < fenn> why should i trust "one dude in his underpants" when i don't even trust google to stay around for ten years 09:51 < kanzure> nah i don't mean "use this service exactly as it is" 09:52 < kanzure> what's wrong with tagging things in postgresql? table schema: id, timestamp, tag id, object id 09:52 < fenn> see http://gwern.net/Google%20shutdowns etc 09:52 < fenn> because i hate databases 09:52 < fenn> tables is all backwards/inside out from normal thinking 09:52 < kanzure> why is it geometrically wrong? 09:52 < fenn> database people just don't see how backwards it is because they have internalized the model 09:52 < fenn> or shall i say, the model has internalized them 09:52 < JayDugger> .g stockholm syndrome 09:53 < yoleaux> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome 09:53 < catern> i've never internalized the model 09:53 < catern> please inoculate me before I do so 09:53 < fenn> would you rather have a graph or an adjacency matrix? 09:54 < JayDugger> Oh, awesome. I can make snide comments and the bot drops links. :) 09:54 < fenn> hint: adjacency matrices are ugly and impossible to visually parse 09:54 < catern> g-graph 09:54 < JayDugger> Won't improve my humor, but I'm happy. 09:54 < catern> but that's a type error 09:54 < catern> adjacencey matrices aren't the same things as graphs 09:54 < catern> but go on 09:55 < catern> (they're representations of graphs) 09:55 < fenn> uh, i dont know what you're saying 09:56 < catern> well you were going to say why databases are bad, please continue 09:56 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, I couldn't repeat that. 09:56 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, but that was only a sample size of one. 09:57 < kanzure> you can do graphs with tables 09:57 < fenn> databases are all set up for the computer, not for humans. so if you need to go in and fix something, or add an entry, all of a sudden you're editing 15 different tables and saying "is this a unique key" and looking up your object relational model 09:58 < fenn> whereas with a yaml file, the schema is right there in every entry, and you never get a slice of an object 09:58 < fenn> i know slice is the wrong word but i dont know the right word 09:59 < fenn> i mean really, look at this crap edu/dropping-all-the-foreign-keys-in-your-sql-server-database/ 09:59 < kanzure> mongodb subscribes to that model, but it doesn't matter because you can just use a json column in postgresql anyway 09:59 < fenn> http://mafudge.syr.edu/dropping-all-the-foreign-keys-in-your-sql-server-database/ 10:00 < fenn> can you look at that diagram and figure out "has a" or "is a" relationships? 10:00 < kanzure> yes 10:00 < fenn> is there anything showing the existence of "employee" besides the prefix? 10:00 < kanzure> the only times i've had problems was when i encountered 50+ tables/models that had broken/wrong relationships between them 10:01 < kanzure> oh you're right, departments is not defined correctly 10:01 < kanzure> well they are just morons 10:02 < fenn> my point exactly 10:02 < kanzure> i can't help them if their models suck 10:02 < kanzure> their models would suck anyway even if it was a pile of json or yaml 10:03 -!- pyotra [~asakharov@24.60.79.55] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:08 < kanzure> http://journalprices.com/ 10:08 < kanzure> "Use this search engine to find internationally-published journals and rank them by price per article or citation. Here are some summary statistics for this edition. If you wish, you can also download an Excel spreadsheet that contains all of our data. You can find explanations of our data sources and methods at this link." 10:10 < fenn> i'm not a database expert and i don't really feel like explaining why i hate them, so here, have a thing: http://whydoeseverythingsuck.com/2008/02/death-of-relational-database.html 10:11 < kanzure> well, i don't think it was ever about knowledge in the first place 10:11 < gradstudentbot> Nobody has tried this before. 10:12 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-89-72.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:15 < kanzure> you should try mongodb (mongo_engine or pymongo) and neo4j 10:15 < fenn> look i hate databases okay 10:15 < kanzure> and one of those python mongo modelers 10:16 < kanzure> mongodb is just a key value store where the values are json documents 10:16 < kanzure> schemaless 10:16 -!- mosasaur [~mosasaur@178.227.77.234] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:17 < fenn> what's wrong with a filesystem? a filesystem is a database, but i don't have to use some shitty interface that has no tools and no common conveniences like tab completion or whatever 10:17 < catern> i like filesystems 10:17 < fenn> i get that mongodb is just a big dict 10:18 < kanzure> d3vz3r0: are you around? 10:18 < fenn> i get that facebook and google have too many users and they have to resort to fancy tricks 10:18 < fenn> but 98% of the web would be just fine with flat files and a version control system like git 10:18 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:19 < d3vz3r0> yo 10:20 < d3vz3r0> kanzure: ^^^ 10:20 < kanzure> d3vz3r0: there is some backlog stuff, but basically fenn is wondering why mongodb instead of just git plus flat files 10:20 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:20 < kanzure> or just a generic filesystem 10:21 < fenn> you can even index a filesystem, see "tracker-search" or "namazu" for example 10:21 < kanzure> .wik namazu 10:21 < yoleaux> "Disambiguation: Namazu" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namazu 10:21 < d3vz3r0> sure you can do that, but fs's aren't really built for that kind of access pattern 10:21 < d3vz3r0> you can certainly do it, things like hotmail were built entirely on a fs 10:21 < d3vz3r0> seriously, crazy shit 10:22 < d3vz3r0> the issue really is the IO overhead 10:22 < fenn> why is that any different in a database 10:22 < d3vz3r0> there's a reason mongo uses one big ass file (or multiple 'tablespace' files) 10:23 < d3vz3r0> the IO overhead of the filesystem itself 10:23 < d3vz3r0> ie: opening 10k files takes a long time 10:23 < fenn> why 10:23 < fenn> they are just pointers 10:23 < d3vz3r0> inodes? 10:23 < fenn> right 10:23 < d3vz3r0> sure, to locations on the disk 10:23 < d3vz3r0> which it has to seek to 10:24 < fenn> or in memory 10:24 < d3vz3r0> if you mmapped the file 10:24 < xmj> fenn: why do you need git when you have a journaled filesystem 10:24 < d3vz3r0> but that file has to be read into memory at some point 10:24 < fenn> if you database is 1TB it's not going to be in RAM either 10:24 < xmj> well you could implement some gitlike tool at the FS level :) 10:24 < d3vz3r0> what are you trying to do? 10:24 < kanzure> d3vz3r0: unrelated, but http://kentonv.github.io/capnproto/ (instead of regular protobufs) 10:25 < fenn> xmj: multiple versions, distributed editing, and journals weren't intended to be rolled back very often 10:25 < gradstudentbot> I have this really good idea. I just can't get it to work. 10:25 < xmj> fenn: git rebase. 10:25 < fenn> xmj: i'd love to have a git filesystem 10:25 < xmj> heh 10:25 < xmj> i like ZFS. 10:26 < JayDugger> fenn: How does git-annex fail for your purposes? 10:26 < gradstudentbot> The culture got contaminated. 10:26 < d3vz3r0> what do you want from a git filesystem? I'm sincerely curious 10:26 < xmj> fenn: ever tried ZFS on some box? 10:26 < kanzure> d3vz3r0: originally he was asking why databases (including mongodb) are relevant or interesting 10:27 < fenn> d3vz3r0: versioning? branch, merge, etc. all the reasons people use version control 10:27 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:27 < xmj> i'm sure you could implement that with zfs 10:27 < fenn> kanzure: don't put words in my mouth, i was trying (halfheartedly) to explain why i hate databases 10:28 < kanzure> well you brought up models, but models can be wrong on the file system just as they can be wrong in a db 10:28 < fenn> apple has a "time machine" thingy, so obviously the demand is there 10:28 < JayDugger> .g git-annex 10:28 < yoleaux> https://git-annex.branchable.com/ 10:28 < fenn> the only reason we need git-annex is because we don't have a git filesystem 10:29 < xmj> what exactly does apple's time machine do? 10:29 < fenn> lets you roll back to before you broke stuff 10:29 < xmj> ah 10:29 < fenn> it also does backups 10:29 < JayDugger> I don't know git-annex well, which prompted my question. 10:29 < xmj> zfs rollback <3 10:29 < d3vz3r0> +1 for zfs 10:30 < d3vz3r0> fenn: I sometimes wishing i had a git fs too, but i ask myself how I would use it 10:30 < fenn> if a filesystem isn't made to quickly open lots of little files, then maybe you should use a different filesystem 10:31 < xmj> zfs has one caveat: it eats ram. 10:32 < fenn> see i can implement stupid inside-out database stuff in a filesystem too; just take the n line of every file and put that in its own file, then when you need to reconstruct the original file "just" do cat * | head -n $n | tail -n1 >> the_file 10:32 < d3vz3r0> and performance will suck 10:32 < fenn> of course it will suck, because it's a stupid idea 10:32 < fenn> that's why i hate databases!!! 10:33 < d3vz3r0> you hate databases because filesystems would be really slow at doing similar things? 10:33 < d3vz3r0> I don't understand 10:33 < xmj> he just doesn't like the idea of tables. 10:33 < fenn> because they're inside out and don't let you get at the thing itself 10:33 < d3vz3r0> the 'thing' itself? 10:33 < d3vz3r0> which is what> 10:33 < xmj> fenn: did you fail accounting once and start hating excel? 10:33 < d3vz3r0> ? 10:33 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-hzixdmkkksqeyzeb] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:34 < d3vz3r0> I don't like the idea of organized and structured data either 10:34 < fenn> in object oriented programming the "thing" is an object 10:34 < d3vz3r0> yes 10:34 < d3vz3r0> I guess that oculd be true 10:34 < xmj> there are more programming paradigms than OOP. 10:34 < d3vz3r0> or the "thing" is an association of objects, thing is pretty broad 10:35 < fenn> in functional programming the "thing" could be a subtree 10:35 < xmj> yay 10:35 < d3vz3r0> in the unverise "thing" could be the solution of quantum gravity.... can you use a better term than "thing"? 10:35 < xmj> lists! 10:35 < d3vz3r0> lists are just flat trees 10:35 < d3vz3r0> :) 10:35 < kanzure> flat graphs 10:36 < fenn> 1 = 1 in natural units 10:36 < d3vz3r0> sure 10:36 < fenn> -_- 10:36 * xmj puts d3vz3r0 into a cons. 10:36 < d3vz3r0> ha 10:36 < xmj> (/dev (/zero .)) 10:37 < fenn> a row in a table is not usually "the thing" you want, it's part of it, or the thing is part of it 10:37 < d3vz3r0> you want the record 10:37 -!- Shehrazad [~Shehrazad@95.5.116.22] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:37 -!- Shehrazad [~Shehrazad@95.5.116.22] has quit [Changing host] 10:37 -!- Shehrazad [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:37 < catern> camlistore is interesting on the note of a "git filesystem" 10:37 < d3vz3r0> which is inside the row? 10:38 < xmj> clearly 10:38 < xmj> set theory and sigma algebras to the rescue 10:38 < catern> it's totally immutable and uses garbage collection instead of deletion 10:39 < fenn> i don't know what a record is 10:39 < xmj> an element of a set ? 10:39 < d3vz3r0> ^^ 10:40 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:40 < fenn> Searching the 7IWD2-02-Foundation-2011-12.pdf, with a date of 2011-12-21 reveals that the word row appears 2277 times in the document while the word record appears only 21 times, either as the verb "record" or in some appendices in the end, in specifications of the data type correspondences for SQL data types and host language types 10:40 < d3vz3r0> in SQL terms a set of records is returned from a query 10:40 < d3vz3r0> each record is contained inside a row 10:40 < d3vz3r0> that record may or may not be the entire 'row' 10:40 < fenn> a record is just a subset of a row? 10:40 < d3vz3r0> at a 10k foot view, yes 10:41 < fenn> what do i call a set of records from multiple rows in multiple tables? 10:41 < kanzure> joined record, iirc 10:42 < d3vz3r0> the record is the combination of the joined data set from the multiple tables 10:43 < fenn> aren't people always going on and on about how evil joins are and how to minimize joins and oh geeze if only we had been smart enough to not require a join 10:43 < d3vz3r0> joins aren't evil 10:43 < d3vz3r0> they are just difficult in a distributed system 10:44 < fenn> why is it always the database server that's the weak link in a distributed system? 10:44 < xmj> and may be computationally expensive if tables consist of "big data" 10:44 < d3vz3r0> not requiring a join means perfectly partitioning your data set 10:44 < xmj> d3vz3r0: in the past we did denormalization to our datamodel to avoid joins and rice it. 10:44 < gradstudentbot> I am writing the abstract. 10:45 < xmj> obviously a data model of third normal form will be slower than a more redundant, higher normal formed data model 10:45 < xmj> it's a tradeoff 10:45 < d3vz3r0> yea, denormalization requires more joins 10:45 < fenn> you know what i call that? a bad caching system 10:46 < xmj> ? 10:46 < d3vz3r0> why is that a bad caching system? 10:46 < xmj> what do those two have to do with each other? 10:46 < fenn> all the denormalizing stuff, you're just rewriting the data different ways to speed up performance 10:46 < kanzure> are databases really the point of failure? i thought it was stuff like service discovery 10:46 < fenn> caching is storing answers so you don't have to recompute/fetch them again 10:47 < d3vz3r0> seems simple doesn't it? 10:47 < xmj> youre missing the point 10:47 < xmj> even with caching the generation of the first answer will differ 10:47 < xmj> generation time* 10:47 < d3vz3r0> caching is reliant on determinism 10:48 < xmj> yep 10:48 < fenn> isn't denormalization also? 10:48 < d3vz3r0> without deterministic results from a question you ask a system, caching is impossible 10:48 < d3vz3r0> no 10:48 < xmj> btw- there was a django CVE lately in which caching lead to an attacker being able to do a CSRF. 10:48 < xmj> which was that again.. /looks 10:48 < d3vz3r0> 2nd hardest problem in CS: caching 10:48 < fenn> but don't you have to update all the different copies in a distributed database when you modify a denormalized table? 10:49 < d3vz3r0> fenn: have you read the Dynamo paper from amazon? 10:49 < xmj> ? 10:50 < xmj> even when your db is normalized enough, changes will have to traverse your distributed system 10:50 < d3vz3r0> yea, he's talking about eventual consistency 10:50 < d3vz3r0> totally different thing 10:50 < fenn> while it's called a "hash table", as a distributed system it's not really a table in my understanding 10:51 < xmj> d3vz3r0: i hate when people talk about different things 10:51 < d3vz3r0> a "hash table" is a distributed system? 10:51 < fenn> (i'm reading about dynamo) 10:51 < fenn> a distributed hash table 10:51 < xmj> people talking past each other happens so frequently and is sooo expensive. 10:51 < d3vz3r0> yep 10:51 < fenn> as i said earlier, i'm not a database expert 10:51 < fenn> "denormalizing" is a stretch 10:51 < d3vz3r0> fenn: I think you are getting terms confused 10:52 < fenn> "denormalization is the process of attempting to optimize the read performance of a database by adding redundant data or by grouping data 10:52 < xmj> denormalizing is when you take a normalized data model with next to no redundancy and reduce the amount of tables, adding redundant parts. 10:52 < xmj> exactly 10:52 < fenn> presumably this is so you don't have to do a join across tables across database servers 10:52 < d3vz3r0> typically for perforamnce rasons 10:52 < d3vz3r0> no 10:52 < d3vz3r0> well, yes, but not always 10:53 < xmj> why would you join across database servers ? 10:53 < xmj> apart from using a foreigh table sorta import? 10:53 < fenn> i dont know 10:53 < xmj> fenn: i'd keep a few masters and a few readonly slaves 10:53 < xmj> but then again I'm no DBA and i'd be better off letting someone do that who really knows. 10:53 < kanzure> or redis replication sets/groups where they figure that out on their own 10:53 < d3vz3r0> he means distributed joins within a sharded SQL engine I think 10:53 < fenn> that centralization is your bottleneck 10:53 < xmj> ahh ok 10:54 < xmj> i dont know much about sharding 10:54 < xmj> havent worked with a level of data that made it necessary. our "big data" wasn't so big back then 10:54 < d3vz3r0> butyou know how sets work :) 10:54 < xmj> well, yes 10:54 < d3vz3r0> it's all just set theory 10:55 < fenn> how is denormalizing not a cache 10:55 < d3vz3r0> simple :) 10:55 < d3vz3r0> haha 10:55 < xmj> even with a sharded db, it should be invisible to the querying client, no? 10:55 < dingo> d3vz3r0 makes shit up all the time don't listen to him 10:55 < xmj> well maybe in slightly slower read speeds 10:55 < d3vz3r0> in theory, yes 10:55 < d3vz3r0> fuck you dingo 10:55 < d3vz3r0> :) 10:55 < d3vz3r0> just kidding buddy ;) 10:55 < dingo> thats mr. fucker to you 10:56 < dingo> hey look forward to seeing you later today right 10:56 < d3vz3r0> I think you got promoted to Dr. right? 10:56 < d3vz3r0> yep, I'll be there tonight 10:56 < dingo> who, me? naw 10:56 < kanzure> going away party? 10:57 < gradstudentbot> Who got mustard on my cell culture? 10:57 < d3vz3r0> something like that 10:57 < xmj> d3vz3r0: whats your trade? 10:57 < d3vz3r0> hookers 10:57 < kanzure> approximately true 10:57 < d3vz3r0> :) 10:57 < xmj> a pimp that idles on freenode. 10:57 < xmj> nice! 10:58 < d3vz3r0> my trade is computers 10:58 < kanzure> his trade is models. 10:58 < xmj> thats good, i enjoy the View of a good Model. 10:58 < d3vz3r0> yea, that's probably more accurate 10:58 < xmj> I really want to Control them. 10:58 < d3vz3r0> oh god 10:59 < xmj> bad jokes are sometimes fun 10:59 < d3vz3r0> sometimes 10:59 < kanzure> fenn: what about a strain of bamboo that requires less water 10:59 < fenn> kanzure: back to the original question you asked, "do you really want all of your tagged data to be based on ikiwiki's compiler" the user would add the tag data to the file itself 10:59 < kanzure> i don't think that opening up each file and looking through the wiki syntax for tags is a good idea 10:59 < fenn> the compiler only uses the tag data to build a list of pages with that tag 10:59 < kanzure> there can be thousands or millions of tags attached to an object 10:59 < gradstudentbot> Someone's sitting at my bench space. 11:00 < kanzure> probably the mustard fiend 11:00 < fenn> when you add a tag to a file and save it, the compiler adds the tag to the index for that tag 11:00 < fenn> or at least that's how i would do it 11:00 < kanzure> but then what's my querying interface for 2, 3, 500 tags? 11:01 < fenn> don't do that, asshole! 11:01 < fenn> why do you need to query for 500 tags 11:01 < kanzure> why shouldn't i query tagged data? 11:01 < d3vz3r0> fenn: please don't write software with that approach... 11:01 < d3vz3r0> people will always do things you've never thought of 11:02 < d3vz3r0> and would consider 'dumb', but they have very good reasons for doing what they are doing... 11:02 < fenn> that doesn't mean i have to indulge them 11:02 < d3vz3r0> no, but just don't make your software fall apart because they did something you didn't plan for 11:02 < fenn> it wouldn't fall apart 11:02 < d3vz3r0> ok 11:03 < d3vz3r0> I'll believe you:) 11:03 < fenn> this is all hypothetical anyway 11:03 < kanzure> tagging isn't 11:03 < kanzure> i have >50,000 bookmarks 11:03 < fenn> how many tags per bookmark, on average 11:03 < fenn> what's the median number of tags per bookmark 11:03 < kanzure> none, because my bookmarks suck 11:03 < fenn> oh. that's suboptimal 11:04 < fenn> are they in a tree? 11:04 < kanzure> sometimes 11:04 < fenn> is it just a list of 50k bookmarks? 11:05 < xmj> 21:02:19 < d3vz3r0> no, but just don't make your software fall apart because they did something you didn't plan for 11:05 < xmj> d3vz3r0: you know that joke right? "ATTENTION ATTENTION, User actually uses software for the purpose the developer intended it to be used!!!!" 11:05 < d3vz3r0> tea 11:05 < d3vz3r0> tea 11:05 < d3vz3r0> yea 11:05 < d3vz3r0> fucking typing.. 11:06 < d3vz3r0> I've been at this since like 1994, software is *never* used for its intended purpose 11:06 < fenn> what was the xanadu grid system called... 11:08 < fenn> generalized search tree? it was some kind of cartesian row/column interface for data of arbitrary and nonuniform number of dimensions 11:08 < dingo> http://spectrum.ieee.org/img/BASIC-1398952320593.jpg 11:09 < d3vz3r0> Enfilades? 11:09 < d3vz3r0> dingo, that girl is prolly dead now 11:10 < d3vz3r0> fenn: used redis before? 11:10 < fenn> no 11:10 < dingo> ! use it 11:10 < d3vz3r0> ^^^ 11:11 < d3vz3r0> use it 11:11 < fenn> what does it do 11:11 < d3vz3r0> seriously 11:11 < d3vz3r0> and learn how zsets work 11:11 < dingo> it changes the way you write software 11:11 < d3vz3r0> http://redis.io/ 11:11 < fenn> it's a hash table i can save to disk? 11:11 < d3vz3r0> dingo is right 11:11 < d3vz3r0> no, read the fucking website 11:11 < d3vz3r0> it's a data structure server 11:11 < dingo> http://redis.io/topics/data-types 11:12 < d3vz3r0> don't hold his hand 11:12 < d3vz3r0> his/her 11:12 < d3vz3r0> its 11:12 < fenn> okay set operations are useful 11:18 < fenn> it looks like it was designed to be a database for people who realized how bad databases are but couldn't turn their minds back outside in 11:20 < fenn> is a sorted set an index of other keys (a list of pointers) or does it actually contain all the data? 11:20 < dingo> its about data structures and alogorithms 11:20 < dingo> it offloads the issue to a "database" 11:20 < dingo> its not about storing data, its about how its stored and retrieved 11:20 < dingo> btree's and all that shit 11:21 < dingo> its malloc() connected to tcp/ip or unix sockets 11:21 < dingo> and then all those silly data structures is just the pudding 11:21 < fenn> "you can use a sorted set with elements having the age of the user as the score and the ID of the user as the value" this sounds like it's just a table 11:22 < fenn> i never want to have to dereference a pointer (lookup an ID) 11:23 < d3vz3r0> seriously? 11:23 < fenn> is that too much to ask 11:23 < d3vz3r0> yes 11:23 < juri_> absolutely. 11:24 < fenn> i'm being oppressed! help! 11:24 < d3vz3r0> I don't know how else to answer that... the concept of a pointer is probably the most fundamental thing in computers 11:24 < d3vz3r0> in CS 11:26 -!- dcary [46b171ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.177.113.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:28 < catern> you could eliminate pointers with laziness maybe? 11:28 < d3vz3r0> magic 11:28 < d3vz3r0> I tried once, but I ended up creating a whole new universe that I ended up having to destroy 11:28 < d3vz3r0> total waste 11:29 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:29 < xentrac> d3vz3r0: you may not be aware of this but people were programming computers for more than a decade before they started making linked lists 11:29 < fenn> i thought there was a function to get the pointer of an object in python, but i guess not 11:29 < xentrac> 1945-1955 11:29 < xentrac> fenn: id 11:30 < d3vz3r0> yes, I'm aware 11:30 < d3vz3r0> but they still used symbols and pointers 11:30 < xentrac> in a way, yeah: jump addresses and subroutine return addresses, for example 11:30 < d3vz3r0> fenn: you never want that, that's why you can't get it 11:30 < d3vz3r0> and you can, btw, it's the 'id(..)' method 11:30 < xentrac> subroutines date from about 1945 11:31 < kanzure> .py id(object()) 11:31 < yoleaux> 3721690541589520088 11:31 < kanzure> okay then 11:31 < xentrac> .py '%016x' % id(object())x 11:31 < yoleaux> SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing (, line 1) 11:31 < xentrac> .py '%016x' % id(object()) 11:31 < yoleaux> 33a619d4475fded8 11:31 < xentrac> .py '%016x' % id(object()) 11:31 < yoleaux> 33a619d4475fded8 11:31 < kanzure> ah. 11:32 < kanzure> i also would have accepted hex(id(object())) 11:32 < xentrac> I forget about hex() 11:32 < xentrac> d3vz3r0: and certainly the program counter and addresses of variables inside your program were pointers 11:32 < d3vz3r0> yea, you want to hex it 11:32 < d3vz3r0> exactly 11:33 < d3vz3r0> *we* are symbollic computers 11:33 < d3vz3r0> we are most certainly going to create symbolic computers 11:33 < d3vz3r0> which is what a pointer is 11:33 < xentrac> a pointer is a symbolic computer? 11:33 < d3vz3r0> no, a symbol 11:33 < d3vz3r0> sorry 11:33 < d3vz3r0> a symbol that is usedwithin the symbollic computer 11:33 < d3vz3r0> a symbol to another symble 11:33 < d3vz3r0> symbol 11:34 < d3vz3r0> btw, I just started re-reading Godel, Escher, Bach 11:34 < d3vz3r0> so yea 11:34 < fenn> go read some neuroscience :P 11:34 < d3vz3r0> suggestions 11:34 < d3vz3r0> ? 11:34 < d3vz3r0> I'd love to 11:34 < kanzure> hm, thinking 11:35 < fenn> "on intelligence" by jef hawkins is a nonstandard but helpful intro 11:35 < kanzure> it is not very neurosciencey, that's more "hierarchical bayesian networks and other obvious things" 11:35 < fenn> it shows how the system works though 11:35 < kanzure> although he does talk about the visual cortex layers 11:37 < d3vz3r0> ah, cool 11:37 < fenn> speaking of which my brain feels pretty swollen 11:37 < kanzure> what about something more specific, like http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Role%20of%20layer%206%20of%20V2%20visual%20cortex%20in%20object-recognition%20memory.pdf 11:37 < kanzure> i guess that one doesn't talk about other possible models of brain matter 11:38 < pyotra> d3vz3r0 You should familiarize yourself with Gerald Edelman 11:38 < xentrac> so I think "*we* are symbolic computers" is kind of a narrow view 11:38 < xentrac> certainly we are capable, poorly, of symbolic computation 11:38 < kanzure> xentrac: i'm sure ruldolf steiner would like that view 11:38 < d3vz3r0> sure, I'll accept that 11:39 < kanzure> xentrac: (obscure waldorf reference) http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/OccSigns/OccSgn_index.html 11:39 < xentrac> but I think the failure of 1960s AI shows that most of the cognitive things we do are not done through our symbolic computation abilities 11:39 < fenn> the brain is such a noisy stochastic system that symbolic computation instantly evaporates without supporting infrastructure for the symbolic data 11:40 < xentrac> I've been worried about brain swelling a lot lately, fenn 11:40 < xentrac> not my brain 11:41 < fenn> archetypes are the built-in infrastructure, it's why people all believe in dragons and god and straight lines 11:41 * kanzure squints 11:41 < fenn> but not very useful for doing math (maybe lines are) 11:41 < cluckj> ... 11:41 < xentrac> rather the brain of the drunk guy over whose head I smashed a bottle Sunday night 11:41 < kanzure> uh 11:41 < kanzure> so, i don't think we have neurophysiological evidence of archetype whatever 11:41 < cluckj> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_anthropology 11:42 < xentrac> but I'm pretty sure that the police would have contacted me if anything bad had happened to him 11:42 < fenn> maybe not, but it's too common to overlook these similarities between widely differing cultures 11:42 < kanzure> "essentially that all cultures are equatable" pls not now 11:42 < kanzure> fenn: communication is a thing that happens 11:42 < xentrac> you could call his plan to threaten me and then fight with the police "hminusroadmap" 11:42 < cluckj> kanzure, relatable is a better word 11:43 < kanzure> oh i read it as equitable 11:43 < fenn> cluckj: can you say why you linked that page (it's not what i thought it would be) 11:43 < cluckj> archetypes are the built-in infrastructure, it's why people all believe in dragons and god and straight lines 11:43 < pyotra> lool you could call his plan to threaten me and then fight with the police "hminusroadmap" 11:43 < xentrac> kanzure: we don't have much neurophysiological evidence of most cognitive phenomena 11:43 < fenn> that's what _i_ said 11:43 < cluckj> yes 11:44 < pyotra> Jeff Hawkins annoys me; and here's why, 11:44 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Quit: the neuronal action potential is an electrical manipulation of reversible abrupt phase changes in the lipid bilayer] 11:44 < kanzure> xentrac: yes, which is why so many suggestions ("well, clearly the brain is computing based on archetypes") are boring 11:44 < cluckj> I linked it because that's a scientific explanation of what you're talking about 11:44 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, it's significant. 11:44 < xentrac> gradstudentbot++ 11:44 < gradstudentbot> Who the hell stole my pipette? 11:44 < cluckj> hahaha 11:45 < fenn> cluckj: that wasn't science, it was baseless philosophical rambling 11:45 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, I'm familiar with the technique. Sort of. 11:46 < pyotra> So crows will bend a wire into a J-shape in order to lift a stopper out of a tube with the "hook" they fashioned. Crows are birds (not mammals) and hence do not have a cortex at all. And yet neuroscience has not the foggiest clue how their brains do this. 11:46 < kanzure> unfortunately, neuroanatomy people are universally awful 11:46 < kanzure> so there are things called cortexes that are not what you think 11:46 < kanzure> i'm sure crows have at least one cortex somewhere 11:46 < pyotra> Jeff Hawkins pretension that he has discovered the key to "intelligence" as a whole must be taken as the snake oil that it is. 11:47 < xentrac> like doctors in 1700 or chemists in 1200, kanzure? 11:47 < cluckj> fenn, it's based on anthropological fieldwork 11:47 < xentrac> I have a cortex in each kidney I think 11:47 < fenn> i thought it would be something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_constants a universal human experience 11:47 < cluckj> the wiki article is kinda trashy (it's wikipedia) 11:47 < kanzure> fenn: it's an alternative explanation other than "neurons are causing this directly" 11:47 < cluckj> yes 11:47 < gradstudentbot> Oh, that's problematic. 11:47 < cluckj> instead of looking down to the neuro level, it's a theory that goes up in the other direction, to bigger things 11:47 < kanzure> xentrac: yes, i'm complaining about how we still don't have a good naming system or way of talking about brain matter parts 11:48 < kanzure> cluckj: human conversation/gossip is bigger? 11:48 < kanzure> xentrac: neuron naming is much better, for some reason 11:48 < cluckj> yes, it's not at a micro-level of analysis 11:49 < fenn> cluckj: "Lévi-Strauss' approach arose in large part from dialectics expounded on by Marx and Hegel, though dialectics (as a concept) dates back to Ancient Greek philosophy." how is this not philosophical rambling again? 11:49 < cluckj> lol, form constants 11:49 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:49 < fenn> form constants exist 11:50 < xentrac> Log in or create an account to start the Avian neuroscience article, alternatively use the Article Wizard, or add a request for it. 11:50 < kanzure> _archels: is there a good neuroanatomy-specific wiki? 11:50 < kanzure> article wizard? 11:50 < cluckj> fenn, in his book on structural anthropology there are actual examples of what he's talking about, not just a philosophical distillation of what he's talking about 11:50 < cluckj> form constants are not the same thing as structural anthropology 11:50 < kanzure> wow what an awful book http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Neuroscience/Neuroanatomy/The_Brain 11:51 < xentrac> however there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness#Birds and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_intelligence 11:51 < cluckj> structural anthropology is about the form and structure that beliefs take, and that those structures of sense and meaning-making are the similar things between cultures 11:51 < cluckj> not merely the symbols themselves 11:51 < kanzure> pyotra: i haven't been able to convince fenn about the reasons why hawkins is annoying in that sense 11:51 < xentrac> and in particular https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_intelligence#Brain_anatomy 11:52 < kanzure> huh, i didn't know the CLARITY method had a longer video published: 11:52 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-NMfp13Uug 11:52 < yoleaux> See-through brains 11:52 < fenn> cluckj: form constants are a genetically encoded geometric pattern that is part of the subjective experience. there are probably others that are harder to demonstrate, but we get them confused with "culture" 11:52 < xentrac> "The basal ganglia only occupy a small part of the avian brain. Instead, it seems that birds use a different part of their brain, the medio-rostral neostriatum/hyperstriatum ventrale (see also nidopallium), as the seat of their intelligence," 11:53 < fenn> cluckj: they might take the form of "dragon" or "line" or "god" 11:53 < xentrac> " The region was renamed to nidopallium in 2002 during the Avian Brain Nomenclature Consortium because the prior name, neostriatum, suggested that the region was used for more primitive functions as the neostriatum in mammalian brains is sub-cortical." 11:53 < kanzure> avian brain.. nomenclature.. consortium. 11:53 < cluckj> fenn, the shapes and symbols that you might see in form constants are a different thing than what structural anthropology addresses 11:53 < fenn> i'm saying they shouldn't be 11:54 < fenn> if "immutable deep structures exist in all cultures" aren't genetic, then where did they come from? 11:54 < cluckj> the particular shapes/sizes/forms of symbols are irrelevant to *how* those shapes/sizes/forms are arranged in a system of meaning-making 11:54 < xentrac> http://avianbrain.org/atlases.html 11:54 < cluckj> (e.g. culture) 11:55 < cluckj> culture is the system, symbols are the bits that carry meaning inside the system 11:55 < fenn> the form of symbols is irrelevant. in any good coding system your simple symbols are used most often or when they need to be communicated quickly and with minimal ambiguity 11:55 < fenn> fuck. 11:55 < cluckj> lol 11:55 < fenn> the form of symbols is NOT irrelevant 11:56 < cluckj> it's irrelevant to how the forms are arranged in a structure 11:57 < cluckj> something can look like a dragon in many cultures, but what that form-of-dragon means in many cultures is different 11:57 < fenn> yeah because dragons went extinct and we reused the symbol for something else 11:57 < xentrac> fenn: ASCII or UCS-4 may not be good coding systems, but nevertheless they work 11:59 < fenn> xentrac: why is ASCII not a good coding system? 11:59 < kanzure> "ontological framework for neuroanatomy" http://trac.biostr.washington.edu/trac/raw-attachment/wiki/minutes_6-29-07/OMtalk.6.29.07.pdf 11:59 < kanzure> cc fenn 11:59 < fenn> bored already 11:59 < cluckj> alright :P 11:59 < xentrac> fenn: by your definition; in ASCII all 128 symbols are equally simple 12:00 < xentrac> it's true that symbolic processing of a system that doesn't fulfill your desideratum is more expensive 12:01 < xentrac> but in most cases that doesn't stop it from being workable 12:01 < xentrac> so in that sense the form of symbols is of limited, though nonzero, relevance 12:02 < fenn> hint to powerpoint users: don't use cyan or yellow text on a white background 12:03 < fenn> so kanzure is there a thing that will circle the relevant part of the brain for me when i click on its entry in the tree? 12:04 < fenn> xentrac: i think you're confusing symbols with bits? or maybe i am confused 12:05 < xentrac> well, a bit is a symbol, but I was talking about the 7-bit symbols of ASCII 12:05 < fenn> a bit doesn't represent anything, so it's not a symbol 12:06 < kanzure> fenn: i think you should be asking that to _archels 12:06 < cluckj> o_O 12:06 < xentrac> fenn: I thought about that point of view, but I rejected it 12:06 < xentrac> because when a bit doesn't represent anything, it's not even a bit either 12:06 < cluckj> a bit represents something because of its relation to other bits 12:06 < cluckj> 1 means 1 because it's not 0 12:07 < xentrac> instead it's some arbitrary analog voltage or RF signal or bias of magnetization 12:07 < xentrac> it's at the point that we decide to interpret that voltage or whatever as meaning something that it becomes a bit 12:07 < cluckj> ^ 12:07 < xentrac> and, by the same token, a symbol 12:07 < cluckj> interpret == assign meaning 12:08 < fenn> ok a bit is a binary digit 12:09 < fenn> ascii is mapping binary digits to letters and punctuation 12:09 < xentrac> well, 7-vectors of them, but yes 12:09 < fenn> in that mapping it exhibits poor efficiency 12:09 < xentrac> yes 12:09 < fenn> the poor efficiency is _because_ it uses 7-vectors for all letters and punctuation 12:10 < xentrac> yes 12:10 < fenn> but at mapping bytes to letters, it couldn't be any more efficient 12:11 < xentrac> why not? huffman can get you down to about two letters per byte on average 12:11 < xentrac> http://worldpowersystems.com/J/codes/ talks about some other codes that achieve slightly over 5 bits per letter 12:11 < xentrac> like ITA2 12:12 < fenn> sure there are only 26 letters and 2^5 is 32 so that's plenty 12:12 < fenn> i am just playing dumb 12:12 < cluckj> lol 12:12 < xentrac> that was the reasoning behind ITA2, yes 12:13 < fenn> it doesn't explain why huffman codes are efficient though (or arithmetic coding) 12:13 < cluckj> but it doesn't matter if the letters you're encoding are greek or cyrillic, you're going to be able to do them using the same structure 12:14 < xentrac> that's because, as you said, in any good coding system your simple symbols are used most often 12:14 < xentrac> which is why the relevance of the form of the symbols is nonzero 12:15 < fenn> only two letters per byte? 12:16 < fenn> most internet traffic is just "lol" and "narf" 12:16 < ThomasEgi> most internet traffic is video data. 12:16 < fenn> and bzip2 can usually get almost three letters per byte 12:18 < fenn> ThomasEgi: depends whether you count the backbone or the leaf branches 12:18 < fenn> i really hope there isn't a lot of video being sent over the backbone 12:19 < ThomasEgi> that's splitting hairs ;). biggest shares go to web and video (with video still growing fast), then there's a bit of file transfering.. the rest is peanuts 12:19 < cluckj> the rest is lol and narf 12:20 < cluckj> and cat pictures... 12:20 < fenn> why doent netflix and youtube put their highest viewed videos of the day on local nodes? 12:20 < fenn> guh what am i trying to say 12:21 < fenn> what's the code for "code switch" 12:21 < cluckj> translate? 12:21 < kanzure> they do cdn/caching stuff 12:21 < fenn> why is video traffic a large part of internet traffic? 12:21 < kanzure> sometimes you have to block your isp's ip addresses so that you can get to the actual youtube servers instead of the cached content 12:22 < cluckj> cat videos > cat pics 12:22 < gradstudentbot> I'm glad you brought that up, I'm going to do that right now. 12:23 < fenn> so comcast actually caches youtube videos? 12:23 < kanzure> i'm not sure if it's the isp itself, or if youtbe struck up deals, or if youtube is just using some geographically-distributed cdn service like akamai or what 12:23 < kanzure> *youtube 12:25 < fenn> isn't it in comcast's interest to cache youtube/netflix because they have to pay for that bandwidth otherwise? 12:25 < fenn> are they just stupid or is there a good reason not to cache? 12:25 < fenn> basically, why doesn't the internet work like a big DHT 12:25 < fenn> or freenet 12:26 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:26 * fenn gets on his knees and shakes his fist at the heavens 12:26 < fenn> damn you, cloud! 12:29 < cluckj> lol 12:29 < kanzure> INSTANCE_09956',5,'name','','\0',0,3,'Left posterior seventh thoracic radicular vein',NULL),('KB_INSTANCE_09956',5,'au 12:29 < kanzure> Submucosa of accessory superior segmental bronchus 12:30 < kanzure> here's a query interface, but no brain map visualization thing http://fma.biostr.washington.edu:8080/noqafma/query.jsp 12:30 < fenn> cluckj: the cat video phenomenon is possibly the sort of thing i'm talking about 12:31 < cluckj> oh? 12:31 < fenn> "why are people so into cats" 12:32 < kanzure> DatabaseError 12:32 < kanzure> this is useless 12:32 < fenn> Error! 12:33 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:34 < kanzure> i dunno, not convinced http://brancusi.usc.edu/ontology/ontology-details.php?id=116 12:34 -!- Shehrazad [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:35 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:35 < cluckj> fenn, that doesn't tell you about the structure of the system though 12:36 < cluckj> sorry, I had to let some bees off my porch before my cat decided to eat them 12:37 < fenn> xentrac: morse code makes so much more sense as a tree than as a table 12:37 < fenn> http://www.learnmorsecode.com/ 12:39 < cluckj> you might have a nice, neat, biological explanation for why that one particular thing is so popular 12:39 < kanzure> .wik neuronames 12:39 < cluckj> but that biological explanation is predicated on having already decided that babies are important 12:39 < yoleaux> "NeuroNames is an integrated nomenclature for structures in the brain and spinal cord of the four species most studied by neuroscientists: human, macaque, rat and mouse. It offers a standard, controlled vocabulary of common names for structures, which is suitable for unambiguous neuroanatomical indexing of information in digital databases." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeuroNames 12:39 < kanzure> "BrainInfo helps one identify structures in the brain. One can either search by a structure name or locate the structure in a brain atlas and get information such as its location in the classical brain hierarchy, images of the structure, what cells it has, its connections and genes expressed there. Information can be accessed by any of some 16,000 synonyms in eight languages." 12:39 < cluckj> so cats == babies == reproduction 12:40 < fenn> i think it's messier than that 12:40 < cluckj> what that can show you is the connections between those different symbols, which is the structure that we were talking about earlier 12:40 < cluckj> oh it's waaaaaay messier than that 12:41 < cluckj> structural anthro is saying that the connections between those concepts are the structures that make up culture, not the concepts/signs/symbols themselves 12:41 < kanzure> number of 'a's correlates to number of powers of ten to include? 12:43 < fenn> where am i, how did i get here 12:43 < cluckj> kanzure, yeah 12:43 < cluckj> well no 12:43 < cluckj> not even close 12:43 < kanzure> here is a terrible semantic mediawiki for neuroanatomy: http://neurolex.org/wiki/Category:Hippocampal_formation 12:43 <@_archels> kanzure: wikis do not seem the ideal data structure for describing neuroanatomy 12:43 < kanzure> duh 12:43 < kanzure> i absolutely agree 12:44 < kanzure> apparently the hippocampus is also called "ammon's horn" 12:44 -!- pyotra [~asakharov@24.60.79.55] has quit [Quit: quit] 12:44 <@_archels> are you playing with the Allen Brain Atlas? 12:45 < kanzure> _archels: i am having trouble evaluating the level of knowledge each author (of each neuroscience-related paper that i read) regarding neuroanatomy, because there's not only a naming problem but also a "what connects where" problem 12:45 <@_archels> the cornus ammonis areas refer to subparts of the hippocampus afaik, not the whole structure 12:45 < kanzure> kdfladjfkldajfka 12:45 < cluckj> oh dear 12:46 <@_archels> heh, heh 12:46 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@179.126.71.80] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:46 <@_archels> yeah, it's a mess 12:46 < fenn> it's all partially overlapping sets 12:46 < kanzure> well, we should unmess it 12:46 <@_archels> we're organising a session on brain atlasing in our upcoming symposium. join us! 12:46 < cluckj> it'd be nice if there were some clean lines between all those bits of brain like there are in the rest of the body 12:46 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.150.46] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:47 < fenn> yeah, like the butchers diagram of the pig 12:47 < kanzure> there are actually a number of such lines 12:47 < cluckj> yeah 12:47 < kanzure> but now you have to apply that line map against the other existing name datasets ;) 12:47 < kanzure> and their names alone don't tell me about which neurons are projecting inwards or outwards 12:47 < kanzure> (and from where or to where) 12:47 < fenn> that's not important for chopping it into pieces 12:47 < fenn> just tell me where to cut 12:48 < kanzure> everywhere. in 1 micron intervals. 12:48 * fenn sharpens furiously 12:49 < kanzure> why is it still a mess 12:49 < fenn> is there a schematic of the brain? instead of just a circuit layout 12:49 < kanzure> superkuh had one.. 12:49 < fenn> i mean there's no circuit layout either 12:49 < kanzure> it had giant arrows and rectangles 12:50 < fenn> but a description of functions and pathways 12:50 <@_archels> the problem is that there are too many "schematics of the brain" and we don't know how to integrate them 12:50 < cluckj> ooo rectangles 12:50 < kanzure> yeah, a circuit graph would be much nicer 12:50 < kanzure> and then you can just do clustering or whatever 12:50 < fenn> it's common to have multiple schematics of a complex circuit 12:50 < cluckj> so a map of the connections would be much better than a map of names 12:50 < cluckj> hmmmmmm 12:52 < fenn> olaf sporns did some stuff based on white matter tracts (diffusion tensor imaging) 12:52 < fenn> but that's like, data 12:52 < kanzure> why is data bad? 12:53 < fenn> it's expensive to communicate verbally 12:54 < kanzure> videos of some guy riding elevators https://www.youtube.com/user/gluse 12:54 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/user/SMOKERSOFCIGARSPIPES/ "See also: A man who has uploaded 6,300 videos and counting of him doing nothing but smoking pipes and grumbling unintelligible streams of broken English that are conveniently transcribed in the description" 12:55 < cluckj> thank you youtube for archiving those valuable insights 12:56 < kanzure> huh, ok "could wearable technology that counts words heard (a key indicator of cognitive development) be used to improve quality of early childhood education?" 12:56 < kanzure> yes i guess word counting would be a nice metric to have 12:57 < fenn> words heard? 12:58 < fenn> you mean words spoken? 12:58 < kanzure> clearly there might be problems if no words are heard or spoken 12:58 < kanzure> oops i mean "and" 12:58 < fenn> otherwise your wearable device has to dig into the brain to see if the words were perceived or not 12:58 < kanzure> i'm okay with someone not talking, but how can they hear if nobody speaks to them? 12:59 < fenn> right 12:59 < kanzure> (fuck talking) 12:59 < cluckj> irc 4 lyfe 12:59 < fenn> but they could be as dumb as a rock and have lots of words be spoken to them (this counts as words heard) 13:00 < kanzure> fenn: i think that's fine 13:00 < fenn> or they could be deaf and the metric is useless 13:00 <@_archels> kanzure: those lift videos are hilarious 13:00 < cluckj> or you could be mute and the metric is useless 13:00 < kanzure> "number of words spoken, in plain sight of eyes" 13:01 < fenn> ok i shouldn't have used "dumb" to mean "low cognitive development" 13:01 < fenn> fuck english 13:01 < cluckj> hahaha 13:02 < fenn> i kinda wish sapir-whorf were true 13:03 < cluckj> it sure would be convenient 13:03 < fenn> "things that are untranslatable" actually turn out to just be really long explanations that make the joke unfunny 13:05 < cluckj> welcome to the human race 13:07 < kanzure> "1st Call For Papers, 21th Annual Tcl/Tk Conference 2014" 13:07 < kanzure> narf 13:11 < fenn> shit. i think the cat drugs were making me sick (cat has monthly flea medicine on it sitting next to me) 13:12 < fenn> please disregard the past 5 hours of semi-conscious rambling 13:14 < catern> do you still hate databases? 13:14 < kanzure> pfft i've been speaking unconsciously for years 13:14 < cluckj> you were pretty coherent 13:18 < cluckj> I was able to discern what you were trying to say, and attempt to convince you otherwise :P 13:19 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:21 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-hzixdmkkksqeyzeb] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:31 < chris_99> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2617705/Brain-implant-restore-MEMORIES-wounded-soldiers-Alzheimers-sufferers-ethical.html 13:36 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:39 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-kqovnclpnfkxzukz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:55 < kanzure> amusing anti-bitcoin arguments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7675418 14:23 < kanzure> .title http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/01/technology/after-alibaba-ipo-us-web-giants-may-stop-ignoring-chinese-rivals.html?_r=0 14:23 < yoleaux> kanzure: Sorry: that command is a web-service, but its response was too long. 14:25 < kanzure> okie dokie 14:27 < kanzure> "They have a stealth 'target vertical' shopping experience that's developing right now in the Bay Area, however, they're significantly behind schedule, having trouble integrating teams from several locals and their product is dubiously "useful" at this stage of the game." 14:27 < kanzure> huh. that's weird. 14:28 < kanzure> i prefer the original alibaba 14:35 < kanzure> alibaba facebook admins: 14:43 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@100-98-15.connect.netcom.no] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] 14:46 < kanzure> i wonder if they are deleting data from their provisioned storage http://buy.aliyun.com/?spm=5176.383338.21.3.H0DCAU 14:53 < kanzure> alibaba had a remote code execution vulnerability in 2007, whee http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2007/Feb/146 14:54 < kanzure> oh, that's slightly false, oops 15:01 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:08 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:09 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:17 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:34 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -] 15:44 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-92-24-44-62.ppp.as43234.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:46 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:07 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:14 * nsh is looking for things to watch with clever in them 16:14 < nsh> like... science! 16:14 < nsh> can anyone point me at some good audiovisual science learns? 16:16 < sheena> um 16:16 < sheena> how advanced? 16:16 < sheena> nsh: and topic? 16:16 < kanzure> nsh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-NMfp13Uug 16:17 < nsh> all of the topics, all of the advancements. i mean, it would be nice if it didn't all go over my head, but it'd pick that over low information density any time 16:17 < nsh> .t 16:17 < yoleaux> Thu, 01 May 2014 23:17:02 UTC 16:17 < nsh> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-NMfp13Uug 16:17 < yoleaux> See-through brains 16:18 < nsh> neat 16:18 < kanzure> nsh: this one is an oldie but a goodie (and longie) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gFI7o69VJM&t=4m 16:19 < kanzure> d3vz3r0: you might like that video as well (it's about an hour long, about neuroscience) 16:20 < sheena> youtubey things like brain scoop, targetted for non-academic audiences.... vs coursera and udacity higher education courses.. 16:20 -!- cpopell [~cpopell@pool-71-255-241-91.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 16:20 -!- cpopell [~cpopell@pool-71-255-241-91.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:26 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-177-134.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:26 < nsh> ty 16:49 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=7d77387e Bryan Bishop: partial transcript of markram 2006 talk 16:54 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:55 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:56 < kanzure> fenn, if you use 2 wires per element does it matter where each of the 2 wires are placed on its surface 16:56 < kanzure> since you said capacitor, i would guess yes 17:01 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:04 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:05 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-177-134.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:05 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:06 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:06 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-177-134.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:12 < kanzure> http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/astrophysics/the-hunt-for-the-invisible-axion 17:21 -!- cpopell is now known as cpopell`gym 17:27 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-92-24-44-62.ppp.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:41 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-kqovnclpnfkxzukz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:51 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:16 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18 -!- Adifex|zzz is now known as Adifex 18:51 -!- dcary [46b171ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.177.113.174] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:20 < kanzure> beep boop 19:22 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-92-24-44-62.ppp.as43234.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:30 < catern> i saw that kanzure 19:30 < catern> you can't hide your robot nature 19:34 -!- Adifex is now known as Adifex|pub 19:41 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-92-24-44-62.ppp.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:45 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:10 -!- dcary [46b171ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.177.113.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:11 -!- HEx2 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:12 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:22 -!- HEx2 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:26 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:29 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.150.46] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:32 -!- entelechios [~elysium@190.5.213.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:53 -!- HEx2 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:55 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:56 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:02 -!- Guest30849 [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:03 -!- pads [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:03 -!- pads is now known as Guest85608 22:24 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iidoqunvialdcgqi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:39 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:45 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:58 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:18 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] --- Log closed Fri May 02 00:00:57 2014