--- Log opened Wed May 07 00:00:44 2014
--- Day changed Wed May 07 2014
00:00 < kanzure> aren't there 20 levels of top secret
00:00 < kanzure> or is that knowledge top secret
00:00 < kanzure> shit
00:01 < fenn> congratulations, you are now a level 2 Mason
00:01 < fenn> hold still while i sacrifice this goat over you
00:03 < kanzure> i can't hold still without copious amounts of stimulants
00:03 < kanzure> otherwise i'm worse than delinquentme
00:04 < gradstudentbot> I think I have ebola.
00:04 < kanzure> most likely
00:06 < kanzure> fenn: is having shop space the main bottleneck?
00:06 < kanzure> uh, not having
00:07 < fenn> i dont know man
00:07 < kanzure> well it has to be something
00:08 < kanzure> rapid prototyping seems to give lots of advantages for making things that otherwise wouldn't be made
00:08 < kanzure> and i don't mean just the 3d plastic goo kind
00:09 < kanzure> also, did i scare away xentrac?
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00:11 < fenn> i think i try to do too many things
00:11 < fenn> but not having a place to work is definitely a problem
00:12 < fenn> also not having people to work with is a problem
00:13 < fenn> it's much easier to stay focused on a project when there is more than just yourself, or some words on a screen
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00:26 < paperbot> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/_weakrefset.py", line 73, in __contains__)
00:56 < entelechios> https://fart.academy/
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01:48 < xmj> how long do you think until the major health ministries notice that their recommended diets are crap, and scrap them?
02:04 < jrayhawk> 60 years is the typical lag time.
02:04 < jrayhawk> Have to wait for around two generations of doctors to die out.
02:06 < jrayhawk> Which means we're seeing saturated fat come back now.
02:13 < xmj> when do you recon doctors will recognize that diet cholesterol doesn't necessarily lead to serum cholesterol?
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02:27 < nsh> in 2863535324324 seconds
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02:44 < jrayhawk> probably about now, too
02:44 < jrayhawk> well, hmm. I guess I don't know when that one started.
02:45 < jrayhawk> even lipid hypothesists didn't really believe that one sixty years ago, so maybe that can just be traced back to time magazine
02:46 < jrayhawk> which means we have to endure another thirty years of that shit
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03:24 < xmj> meh
03:24 < xmj> everytime i see a coworker send a message "got sick, caught a flu, fever, bla; feeding tea + pills"
03:24 < xmj> I'm convinced this could be reduced to 10% or more if they just ... fixed their eating shit.
03:25 < xmj> on another note, I just discovered http://lesswrong.com/lw/298/more_art_less_stink_taking_the_pu_out_of_pua/
03:25 < xmj> and find it hilarious.
03:30 < ebowden> Oh, how Cabbage Patch Kids are born: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYRs3YMupg4&list=PL444097F0A7CDDF84
03:30 < ebowden> :D
03:55 < jrayhawk> re: flu: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20219962
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03:58 < jrayhawk> asthma and influenza symptomology largely being defined by glutathione deficiency
03:58 < jrayhawk> and vitamin d being a very good way to induce production
03:59 < jrayhawk> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12654482 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23770363 etc etc
03:59 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016%2Fj.bbrc.2013.06.004
04:01 < jrayhawk> you're still pretty screwed when it comes to common colds, though
04:02 < jrayhawk> that's nasal tissue permeability, which diet doesn't, AFAIK, modulate
04:10 < jrayhawk> http://archotol.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=568658 there've been some interesting notes on supraphysiological supplementary notes on the subject
04:11 < jrayhawk> s/notes on//
04:11 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1001%2Farchotol.1941.00660040843010
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04:42 < Qfwfq> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10590-011-9095-8
04:42 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/be628aab88afa24df71e3c0e8ab72282.txt
04:46 <@_archels> Qfwfq: want?
04:48 <@_archels> http://turingbirds.com/temp/art3A10.10072Fs10590-011-9095-8.pdf
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04:56 < Qfwfq> _archels: <3
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05:32 <@_archels> http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/5/5684236/oculus-wants-to-build-a-billion-person-mmo-with-facebook
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06:05 < xmj> uh okay
06:05 < xmj> I doubt I want to play this MMO.
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06:12 <@_archels> why not?
06:18 < xmj> trying to un-facebook myself more and more
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06:19 < xmj> closed platforms that use vendor-lockin are bad mmmkay
06:20 <@_archels> yeah, I wonder how long we'll stick to the typical server/host and client paradigm
06:21 <@_archels> connect to a particular server means being stuck inside the universe simulated by that server
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06:57 < xmj> forever
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06:58 < xmj> client-server vs mesh networks are a bit of a yin/yang thing. at one given point in time the prevailing paradigm is this, cue a few years forward there's a shift to that.
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09:56 <@ParahSailin> wait, people are drinking raw oat flour?
09:58 < kanzure> blah
09:59 <@ParahSailin> i dont think thats safe
09:59 <@ParahSailin> the actual soylent used maltodextrin which is not exactly the same thing as raw flour
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10:21 < xmj> eurgh, flour sounds .. toxic
10:25 < kanzure> fenn: i don't buy the "too many things" statement; that's the sort of thing that other people tell you because they want you to focus on their thing and they're being manipulative.
10:26 < fenn> hm. "Selling yourself, which sounds almost noble [in context], is little more than manipulating other people to do what is good for you"
10:26 < fenn> gah
10:26 < kanzure> yes, well, that's what communication is for
10:26 < fenn> where did you come from
10:26 < kanzure> if you're not trying to manipulate their sensory inputs, then why are you even making sounds at them
10:26 < fenn> i was reading that PUA without the PU article
10:27 < fenn> kanzure: i think discovering ehlers-danlos has probably made more of a difference than i'm willing to admit
10:28 < fenn> it's quite possible that i'm "fixed" and capable of doing whatever i want and just have my head stuck in the sand now
10:29 < kanzure> "Pregnancy complications: increased pain, mild to moderate peripartum bleeding, cervical insufficiency, uterine tearing" this is clearly what you have
10:33 < kanzure> other half of the problem is just making good picks
10:33 < kanzure> project picks i mean
10:33 < fenn> that's something i was complaining about the other day
10:33 < kanzure> obviously you shouldn't pick something too overwhelmingly impossible
10:34 < kanzure> and in fact, picking only things you're sure of is an okay strategy
10:35 < fenn> given 2 projects, project A) benefits millions or billions of people, will be reproduced widely by others, propels humanity into the future, or project B) is a neat thing that would probably have no impact at all - I often find myself dreading project A and wanting to work on project B instead
10:35 < kanzure> do you mean only those two descriptions, or all the externalities that they usually entail
10:36 < fenn> like, the world probably doesn't need a waterproof spring loaded pill dispenser
10:36 < kanzure> your goal has never been "be generally helpful to everyone on planet earth, because it is good to be helpful"
10:37 < juri_> really? thats my goal. i just resolve it a bit more in detail than that.
10:37 < kanzure> your goal is selfish and stupid
10:37 < juri_> ok, so i think i know better than people what they need.
10:37 < fenn> you probably do
10:37 < juri_> they need printable parts.
10:37 < kanzure> juri_: if that was really your goal then you would be all over david pearce stuff
10:38 < kanzure> and taken to the limit, there's a bunch of problems with that line of reasoning that makes it boring and pathetic
10:38 < juri_> kanzure: i haven't heard of his stuff, honestly.
10:38 < fenn> juri_: don't worry, that line of reasoning didn't make sense
10:38 < juri_> i spend my days working on things to help others. no non-free software here.
10:38 < kanzure> well if you genuinely believe in some sort of good maximization, then go read "david pearce" stuff.
10:38 < kanzure> but i'll dislike you even more thoroughly
10:39  * juri_ tilts her head sideways.
10:39 < fenn> david pearce says "why suffer when we can experience gradations of happiness"
10:39 < eudoxia> "why suffer when we have wireheading"
10:39 < fenn> and various abolition of suffering mega projects
10:39 < juri_> yea, i don't buy that. i suffer because others are lazy.
10:39 < fenn> norway seems to be doing alright
10:40 < gradstudentbot> The paper got rejected.
10:40 < juri_> because i'm a hacker, i believe all people should be hackers, and hense, humanity should be saved (use raid6!).
10:40 < kanzure> it's perfectly fine to work on a waterproof spring loaded pill dispenser.
10:40 < juri_> i'd rather see someone work on a waterproof spring loaded pill dispenser than play xbox games all day.
10:40 < gradstudentbot> You know, I can just do consulting.
10:40 < eudoxia> fenn: so, what projects have you considered that would proper humanity into the transhuman future
10:41 < kanzure> fuck humanity, who cares if it propels "humanity" or only 10 billion people?
10:41 < eudoxia> i'm just curious omg
10:41 < eudoxia> you're talking to me too hard
10:42 < kanzure> framing questions is really important
10:42 < kanzure> you'll get really different answers
10:42 < fenn> eudoxia: ontological assimilator, skdb, uh i guess that's about it
10:43 < fenn> there's actually a whole spectrum of "meta"
10:43 < eudoxia> fenn: i assumed skdb. what is an ontological assimilator?
10:43 < fenn> eudoxia: skdb is a specific case of it
10:43 < kanzure> figures out ontologies and makes it ontologically compatible with current ontology
10:43 < fenn> right
10:43 < fenn> anyway it's more aimed at web browsing than building stuff
10:43 < fenn> it's basically "the semantic web" implemented with a sledgehammer
10:44 < kanzure> skdb is the wrong design, or at least, the wrong shape of the hypothetical solution
10:45 < fenn> so, in that awful tv show "gundam wing endless waltz" a 12 year old kid from a space colony builds an entire gundam mecha by himself with some robots and a computer code. this is glossed over in about 5 seconds of screen time but it stuck with me
10:45 < gradstudentbot> Hah, look at figure 6. That's definitely a little weird.
10:46 < fenn> i don't see commercial "PLM solutions" heading toward anything like that
10:46 < kanzure> most PLMs assume a workforce of like 1000 engineers i think
10:46 < fenn> god i hate that phrase
10:46 < fenn> it's like "life insurance" or something
10:46 < kanzure> ask dingo, he probably has the most direct experience with them (gm)
10:47 < fenn> "let's design this object to be thrown in the trash"
10:47 < fenn> i really don't care about PLM
10:48 < fenn> i put it in the same category as Eclipse IDE
10:48 < fenn> big ugly piece of shit software for big ugly piece of shit corporations
10:49 < fenn> give me the REPL of engineering
10:49 < eudoxia> SKDB is basically the only software that tries to tackle open manufacturing, so even if it turns out to be a bad idea it might lead the way or something
10:50 < eudoxia> learning from mistakes etc.
10:50 < fenn> i really dropped the ball, i guess it was 4 years ago, when thingiverse and openscad came out
10:50 < kanzure> openscad is still wrong
10:50 < fenn> thingiverse is still wrong too
10:50 < kanzure> python-brlcad will be able to replace openscad as soon as i unbreak it
10:51 < eudoxia> what was bad about openscad again, other than "its not BRLCAD"
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10:51 < kanzure> openscad has a custom language that sucks
10:51 < fenn> eudoxia: it's not turing complete
10:51 < kanzure> plus it's coupled to a GUI
10:51 < fenn> also, it sucks
10:51 < kanzure> and it's STL-only
10:51 < fenn> and it's wrong, in the mathematical sense
10:51 < kanzure> there's zero reason for a completely custom langugae
10:51 < kanzure> *language
10:51 < eudoxia> what about implicitcad
10:51 < fenn> vaporware (?)
10:52 < kanzure> olah is still around
10:52 < fenn> i havent checked in a while
10:52 < kanzure> sheena ran into olah in a totally different way, it was amusing
10:52 < fenn> i like the idea of implicitcad, and functional geometry in general, but i'd rather design for compatibility with an exchange format
10:53 <@ParahSailin> wow, all this time i've just been coping with not being able to use up arrows in python repl when all i needed to do was install readline
10:53 < fenn> right now the most common exchange format is STEP but it leaves a lot to be desired. it's not "source code" by any means
10:53 < kanzure> i thought readline was a default?
10:53 < kanzure> the default python repl is kinda boring anyway. try ipython.
10:53 < fenn> seconding ipython
10:54 <@ParahSailin> kanzure: haha tell default to centos
10:54 < kanzure> stop using centos
10:54 <@ParahSailin> yeah i wish
10:54 < kanzure> you're voluntarily time traveling into the past
10:55 < fenn> i mean STEP AP203/214 describes the geometry, but it fails completely for describing constraints and relationships between objects
10:55 < fenn> same with IGES, which frankly is a lot easier to implement
10:55 < fenn> also IGES is an open standard
10:55 <@ParahSailin> so, on this system, i have my own libc binutils, gcc etc in my $HOME
10:56 < fenn> maybe it makes sense to extend IGES with constraints and relationships
10:56 < fenn> if your cad program can't parse the extensions, you still get the geometry of the default configuration
10:57 < eudoxia> both syntaxes look horrible, what were people thinking
10:57 < eudoxia> this really puts my XML bitching into perspective
10:58 < kanzure> don't worry, there's stepxml for that
10:58 < fenn> now architects are doing all kinds of "parametric" design where you start with some isosurface and run it through a bunch of filters and end up with something that looks like a stinkhorn mushroom
10:58 < fenn> it would be good to be able to support that kind of workflow too
10:59 < gradstudentbot> Do I have to go through the IRB for that?
10:59 < eudoxia> that's basically functional geometry
10:59 < fenn> kanzure: step-xml at least means we don't have to deal with "XPRESSO" or whatever
11:00 < fenn> eudoxia: yeah but it's not source code, it's usually done with a breadboard GUI interface (like yahoo pipes, what is this called)
11:01 < eudoxia> yes
11:01 < fenn> ugh i never should have switched to 13.04
11:03 < fenn> .title http://www.grasshopper3d.com/photo/grasshopper-reading-ecotect    <- example of what i mean
11:03 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed.
11:04 < fenn> seems like if they just rotated everything 90 degrees it would work out a lot better
11:04 < fenn> inputs at top, outputs at bottom
11:05 < fenn> "i try to follow your picture to make your code but i have problem.
11:05 < fenn> could you sharing your code?
11:05 < fenn> fuck that
11:07 < fenn> anyway 90% of the melty architecture is just arbitrary melty crap, and it's not optimized for any particular thing besides meltiness
11:07 < kanzure> there's a few people still working on stepcode.org and they have made "express" less awful
11:07 < kanzure> although not completely non-awful
11:07 < fenn> the geometry should be a process of iterative optizimation through FEM or thermal analysis or whatever utility function you want
11:08 < fenn> optimizing for manufacturing springs to mind
11:09 < fenn> a big problem in making SKDB is trying to figure out where to put the boundary between it and the hypothetical CAD program that does all the stuff i want
11:09 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=3f37f9e4 Bryan Bishop: general project heuristics >> projects/heuristics.mdwn
11:09 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/heuristics/
11:09 < fenn> should i do some sed magic to make a link to the page instead of the filename?
11:10 < kanzure> i dunno if sed would be enough
11:10 < kanzure> i have often wanted a tool that i could point to a file on my file system and get back the correct url
11:10 < fenn> sed/^/http:\/\/diyhpl.us\/wiki\//
11:10 < kanzure> don't think that's enough
11:10 < kanzure> what about whitespace
11:10 < fenn> there is no whitespace
11:10 < fenn> try yourself: git --name-only
11:11 < fenn> er, git show --name-only --oneline
11:11 < kanzure> okay then
11:13 < fenn> merges will still give spurious results but whatever
11:16 < kanzure> were you originally arguing to me that monolithic design was dumb?
11:16 < kanzure> years ago
11:16 < kanzure> it seems like something you would have been aware of, and something that i would have handwaved
11:17 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=18eef56f fenn: test edit 2 files >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/talk:diybio/faq.mdwn
11:18 < kanzure> should just be /wiki
11:18 < fenn> that was 2 files
11:18 < kanzure> and the file extension is stripped
11:18 < fenn> something borked
11:18 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/talk:diybio/faq/
11:18 < dingo> kanzure's git is so good, his PR's need PR
11:19 < kanzure> hierarchical pull requests sound cool
11:19 < fenn> how do i call the script without having to actually push a commit
11:19 < kanzure> setup the environment variables and call it?
11:20 < fenn> i dont get where oldrev newrev come from and what is ${BASH_REMATCH[1]}
11:20 < gradstudentbot> I don't know what to tell you, I thought I would have graduated by now.
11:21 < fenn> hm i shouldnt be using ${BASH_REMATCH[1]}
11:22 < kanzure> i believe jrayhawk wrote the original version of the script
11:22 < fenn> yeah but he didnt intend to link to any arbitrary url
11:22 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:22 < fenn> maybe each wiki should have its own hook script
11:23 < fenn> fwiw diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki seems to work
11:24 < fenn> all the links are changed
11:24 < delinquentme> Venter is humanizing piggy organs
11:31 < fenn>  ls /srv/www/diyhpl.us/ -l
11:31 < fenn> blah blah ... wiki -> diyhpluswiki
11:31 < gradstudentbot> I don't have enough data to form a hypothesis.
11:32 < fenn> i wonder how it knows to use /wiki in the link urls
11:32 < fenn> instead of /diyhpluswiki
11:33 < fenn> delinquentme: have you read http://macroevolution.net/
11:33 < delinquentme> fenn, cant say I have
11:33 < fenn> you should
11:33 < delinquentme> I could use one of these pets
11:33 < fenn> and if you think it's funny you should read it again
11:34 < delinquentme> fenn,
11:34 < delinquentme> what is this?
11:35 < delinquentme> lol its like a satire website but for biotech ... but links to real articles?
11:35 -!- dlfk [~dlfk@chem-179-154.chem.tamu.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:36 < fenn> read the section on human origins
11:37 < kanzure> is it reasonable for me to expect that an ultrasound transducer array should be able to function between 250 kHz and 10 MHz using the same components
11:38 < fenn> not really
11:38 < delinquentme> ehh not particularly interesting
11:38 < kanzure> or, what is the thing that i should check on this. is it the ADCs? the piezo elements?
11:38 < fenn> delinquentme: you are a dull boy
11:38 < fenn> kanzure: the PZT ceramic transducers at least, work by resonance, and the resonance band is only a few MHz
11:39 < fenn> but i am still learning about it
11:39 < kanzure> "Sonography is effective for imaging soft tissues of the body. Superficial structures such as muscles, tendons, testes, breast, thyroid and parathyroid glands, and the neonatal brain are imaged at a higher frequency (7–18 MHz), which provides better axial and lateral resolution. Deeper structures such as liver and kidney are imaged at a lower frequency 1–6 MHz with lower axial and lateral resolution but greater penetration."
11:41 < fenn> it might be possible to use different harmonics for different frequency ranges
11:41 < kanzure> welp let's see if there are any variable frequency transducers on the market
11:41 < fenn> say your natural frequency is 1MHz, then you could do 2MHz, 4MHz, 8MHz, etc
11:42 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:42 < fenn> or is it 2n+1
11:42 < fenn> .wik harmonic
11:42 < yoleaux> "A harmonic of a wave is a component frequency of the signal that is an integer multiple of the fundamental frequency, i.e. if the fundamental frequency is f, the harmonics have frequencies 2f, 3f, 4f, . . ." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic
11:43 < fenn> okay i have no idea then
11:44 < kanzure> "vibro-acoustography" how do these people live with themselves
11:45 < fenn> i remember when i thought "time-domain reflectometry" was technobabble
11:45 < fenn> .wik time-domain reflectometry
11:45 < yoleaux> "Time-domain reflectometry or TDR is a measurement technique used to determine the characteristics of electrical lines by observing reflected waveforms.Time-domain transmissometry (TDT) is an analogous technique that measures the transmitted (rather than reflected) impulse. Together, they provide a powerful means of analysing electrical or  …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-domain_reflectometry
11:46 < kanzure> .wik vibro-acoustography
11:46 < yoleaux> kanzure: Sorry, I couldn't find article.
11:46 < kanzure> yep..
11:46 < fenn> .wik ATM machine
11:46 < yoleaux> "An automated teller machine or automatic teller machine (ATM) (American, Australian, Singaporean, Indian, and Hiberno-English), also known as an automated banking machine (ABM) (Canadian English), cash machine, cashpoint, cashline or hole in the wall (British, South African, and Sri Lankan English), is an electronic telecommunications  …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATM_machine
11:47 < fenn> hole in the wall?
11:47 < fenn> "here shove your money in"
11:47 < kanzure> "Modern transducers are broad bandwidth transducers that are designed to generate more than one frequency. For example, a L 5-12 MHz transducer can generate waves ranging in frequency from 5-12 MHz."
11:47 < gradstudentbot> That's the control group, right?
11:47 < kanzure> http://www.usra.ca/transducer.php
11:48 < fenn> great. what is "modern" then
11:48 < chris_99> i bought some 2MHz transducers from China, havent got round to using them yet though
11:48 < kanzure> maybe "broad bandwidth" is the right keyword
11:48 < kanzure> chris_99: how much did they cost?
11:48 < chris_99> one sec i'll have a look
11:49 < fenn> in that figure is 1MHz the natural frequency and 9 10 11MHz are harmonics?
11:49 < fenn> and what is the black gaussian
11:49 < gradstudentbot> The real reason I wanted to join this lab was because I love to clean glassware.
11:49 < fenn> (is that even a gaussian?)
11:50 < kanzure> that page is apparently supposed to be talking about using ultrasound for anesthesia
11:50 < kanzure> .title http://www.usra.ca/general.php
11:50 < yoleaux> Ultrasound for Regional Anesthesia
11:50 < chris_99> 2 sensor:2*32USD=64USD. the shipping cost is 33USD by DHL, the PayPal charge is 4.5USD. so the total is 101.5USD
11:51 < kanzure> what's the connector type?
11:51 < chris_99> wirese
11:51 < chris_99> *wires
11:51 < fenn> oh that's just using ultrasound to guide an injection to the nerve, not actually affecting the nerve with ultrasound
11:51 < kanzure> darn
11:52 < gradstudentbot> I am busy researching.
11:54 < fenn> the difference between 3MHz and 12MHz is almost imperceptible
11:54 < kanzure> how do i know they didn't fuck up the imaging, the transducer design, uploading the files, etc.
11:54 < kanzure> they might not have even tested the transducer to see what frequency it was really using
11:55 < fenn> yeah if it's a harmonic there will be natural frequency undertones and overtones
11:55 < fenn> not exactly straightforward to measure the actual signal though
11:55 < kanzure> hydrophones?
11:55 < fenn> you can't just hook up a USB sound card and microphone
11:56 < fenn> at MHz the frequency response of the microphone becomes important, and then you are in a chicken and egg situation
11:56 < kanzure> how does all this fancypants equipment work without regular calibration/testing etc
11:56 < kanzure> well, i don't mean just a generic microphone
11:56 < kanzure> what about having a small water tank with hydrophone arrays
11:57 < fenn> sure, but that is basically what your ultrasound is doing anyway
11:57 < fenn> .d transducer
11:57 < yoleaux> transducer (/tranzˈdjuːsə, trɑːnz-, -ns-/): n. A device that converts variations in a physical quantity, such as pressure or brightness, into an electrical signal, or vice versa — http://is.gd/tuEu9q
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11:58 < gradstudentbot> Well, that paper was actually retracted.
11:58 < kanzure> merging https://github.com/kanzure/python-brlcad/pull/28
11:58 < fenn> plug your headphones into the mic port and see
11:58 < kanzure> huh?
11:58 < kanzure> is this your argument against a hydrophone array
11:59 < fenn> no, uh.. some things are optimized for input or output
11:59 < fenn> an LED doesn't make the best solar panel, and vice versa, but they are capable of doing the other's job in a minimal sense
11:59 < fenn> basically, i don't know enough about ultrasound
12:00 < kanzure> are you trying to convince me of something?
12:00 < kanzure> because i don't follow the conversation
12:00  * fenn backtraces
12:01 < fenn> "they might not have even tested the transducer to see what frequency it was really using"  verifying the frequency you're outputting might be harder than it's worth
12:01 < fenn> s/frequency/spectrum/
12:02 < kanzure> it would also be nice to verify how much energy you're delivering
12:02 < fenn> calorimeter maybe
12:03 < gradstudentbot> Are you published?
12:03 < fenn> .wik schlieren photography
12:03 < yoleaux> "Schlieren photography is a visual process that is used to photograph the flow of fluids of varying density. Invented by the German physicist August Toepler in 1864 to study supersonic motion, it is widely used in aeronautical engineering to photograph the flow of air around objects." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlieren_photography
12:03 < fenn> well, something like that
12:05 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowgraph
12:06 < fenn> i guess it's an interferogram
12:07 < fenn> yo dawg i heard you like wave imaging...
12:07 < kanzure> since when is august a german name
12:07 < kanzure> .ety august
12:07 < yoleaux> august (adj.): "1660s, from Latin augustus "venerable, majestic, magnificent, noble," probably originally "consecrated by the augurs, with favorable auguries" (see augur (n.)); or else "that which is increased" (see augment)." — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=august
12:08 < augur> dont see me
12:08 < kanzure> shoo
12:08 < fenn> anyway, pour a slab of clear jello, put your transducer up to the side of it, shine one half of a laser beam through it and the other half through still air, and recombine on a screen
12:10 < fenn> you should be able to optically verify the wavelength of a standing wave at least
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12:21 < kanzure> in the absence of multifrequency capabilities i think that just means "make lots of different transducers"
12:22 < kanzure> if the transducers only cost $60 in the first place, then buying them seems more sane
12:22 < kanzure> i looked at alibaba and only saw $600/each
12:23 < fenn> $60 might only be a single element transducer (i guess you could chop it tho)
12:23 < fenn> i wonder if anyone's used peratech quantum rubber as an ultrasound sensor
12:24 < kanzure> single element looks ok for imaging
12:24 < fenn> really?
12:24 < fenn> you need at least two right?
12:25 < kanzure> .title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14682638
12:25 < yoleaux> Design of effic... [IEEE Trans Ultrason Ferroelectr Freq Control. 2003]
12:26 < kanzure> argh why the cutoff
12:26 < kanzure> "Design of efficient, broadband single-element (20-80 MHz) ultrasonic transducers for medical imaging applications."
12:26 < fenn> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14682638
12:28 < kanzure> "B-Mode: “B” stands for “brightness”.  Move the transducer in A-Mode laterally, i.e., usually along the target surface, a series of A-Scan line will be acquired. If the moving is controlled well, and lateral distance of each move is recorded, then align all these A-scan lines will form a 2D mapping of the ultrasound beam scanned area."
12:28 < kanzure> "Each A-Mode scan line can be modulated by brightness or, gray scale and an image is formed. The image is called B-Mode image. On B-Mode image, usually horizontal direction is the lateral distance, and vertical is depth. B-Mode image can be a sector, rectangular, or a circular shape depends on the transducer scan mode and applications. In the early days, scanning is performed by a single element transducer, driven by rotation or swing of a ...
12:28 < kanzure> ... motor, and image has a sector shape. Phased array also most likely gives a sector shape image. Linear array normally usually generates a rectangle shape image. For intravascular or endoscope, where the transducer is in rotation, giving a circular image."
12:29 < kanzure> obviously an array is more interesting but if i can't get a relevant range of frequencies out of it, what's the point
12:29 < fenn> wow i thought b-mode would turn out to be more sublime
12:31 < fenn> so a 1D pushbroom scan sucks because you can't align the different sweeps to each other in order to compute geometry (tomography), also it's a lot of manual scanning
12:33 < fenn> so a linear array transducer normally has a lens array on it?
12:33 < kanzure> maybe we can coerce chris_99 into doing a teardown
12:33 < chris_99> of what sorry?
12:34 < fenn> i didnt think he had bought a linear array
12:34 < chris_99> nah mine are single transducers, if that's what your'e talking about
12:35 < fenn> linear array with lenses is dumb anyway
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12:35 < fenn> it's not like you're imaging things flying around at hundreds of miles per hour
12:35 < fenn> "the baby is very active, he kicks like bruce lee!"
12:36 < fenn> "ma'am, I have bad news. your baby is not human"
12:37 < fenn> .wik campaniform sensilla
12:37 < yoleaux> "Campaniform sensilla are mechanoreceptors found in insects. When the exoskeleton bends the resulting strain stimulates the sensilla. The displacement is transmitted down until it reaches the central nervous system. The term campaniform refers to the bell shape appearance of these sensory structures when viewed in cross section." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaniform_sensilla
12:41 < fenn> ok guys new plan, we farm cockroaches and wire their legs up to a USB soundcard
12:41 < fenn> phased cockroach array imagining
12:42 < chris_99> that's just cruel :(
12:42 < fenn> it's ok they grow back
12:43 < fenn> i just like this page in general http://medix.marshall.edu/~zill/Projects2003.htm
12:44 < fenn> it's very star trek
12:44 < fenn> if you invert the images
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13:03 < kanzure> now the pharmacy needs an "early release form", because i filled my prescriptions "late" last time (but no later than usual)
13:03 < kanzure> why haven't i been able to do "early release" before when i, you know, actually needed it
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13:13 < fenn> is it really that hard to get adderall?
13:15 < kanzure> it's like pulling teeth
13:16 < kanzure> having a prescription is not enough, it's also this time-space constraint satisfaction problem where you have to perfectly time when you fill each prescription, versus when you're going to get a new set of prescriptions, and when each of those prescriptions can be filled versus when they expire, versus the hours of operation of the pharmacy (thankfully i found a 24 hour one)
13:18 < fenn> how long is the overlap period? or is there no overlap
13:18 < kanzure> overlap is not allowed
13:19  * fenn mmbles methlab on a potato chip
13:20 < kanzure> if i had insurance that covered this prescription, then i would be eligible for a 90-day supply instead of 30-day supplies
13:21 < fenn> that doesn't make any sense
13:21 < fenn> why does it matter who pays for it
13:22 < fenn> bbl
13:24 < entelechios> i got that shit for free no questions asked
13:24 < entelechios> for a year straight i was on it
13:24 < entelechios> fuck the diminishing returns though
13:24 < kanzure> http://www.reddit.com/r/ADHD/comments/1jcjxo/where_do_i_find_the_laws_and_regs_for_adderall_in/
13:24 < entelechios> theres better things to be feeding your head with
13:25 < entelechios> i was getting the fun kind too
13:25 < entelechios> 'oh yeah the sustained release doesnt work so well, i had the instant ones when i was a kid' doc didnt even know instant existed but wrote the script anyways
13:25 < entelechios> adhd is a scam
13:25 < kanzure> "I had to leave that practice after I erupted in the office bc they wouldn't change the date despite the last month having 31 days. I wasn't my nicest self that day..."
13:26 < kanzure> entelechios: fuck off and die
13:26 < entelechios> nah i think i'm good
13:26 < entelechios> pretty sure i hope to live a happy healthy life on this world for as long as i can get away with it
13:26 < kanzure> entelechios: it's most definitely not a scam. either show me evidence or banhammer.
13:27 < entelechios> i think it's a scam because just about everyone i've ever known could probably benefit from the meds for it. i think it's a diagnosis due for becoming obsolete with further, more holistic views of how to treat the mind
13:27 < kanzure> okay, so because you want holistic mind shit, you think that stimulants are a scam?
13:28 < entelechios> nah i don't really think scam is the right word for it here. too many toes stepped on, what are you some kinda centipede
13:28 < entelechios> i think that it's going to look funny to people in the future
13:28 < kanzure> why should i not kickban you? i see almost no evidence of reasoning in anything you've written.
13:28 < entelechios> go ahead you'll prove nothing yourself either
13:28 < kanzure> huh?
13:29 < kanzure> it's not about proving anything, it's about taking out the garbage
13:30 < entelechios> you know what's not available in my country, along with many others that think adhd is a bogus diagnosis? adhd meds
13:30 < kanzure> can you try saying something more substantial
13:30 < entelechios> can only get them for narcoleptic spectrum disorders
13:30 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ
13:32 < entelechios> i'm just saying that given a society of distractions keeping peoples attention pulled in many different directions that focus itself as a limited resource is being strained out through crude means
13:32 <@kanzure> so you are arguing both (1) adhd diagnosis is a scam, and (2) stimulants are a scam, and your evidence for both is that stimulants are generally beneficial to anyone, therefore #1 and #2?
13:32 < entelechios> i think it's a scam if i can just walk into a doctor and tell him i have trouble with focusing and that i'm going back to school so plz halp 'ok kid heres way more amphetamine than you will ever need'
13:33 <@kanzure> how is that a scam?
13:33 < entelechios> i think that the adhd diagnosis itself is the problem here
13:33 < xmj> wow that is such a bullshit entelechios
13:33 < entelechios> i'm pretty sure just about everyone i know in whatever circumstances on a daily basis isnt on top of their game
13:33 < entelechios> at one point or another
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13:33 <@kanzure> that's not adhd
13:33 < xmj> entelechios: wake up, man. wake up.
13:33 <@kanzure> xmj: wake up from what?
13:33 < entelechios> i've been given the diagnosis myself through my life
13:34 < xmj> kanzure: blaming ADHD for government regulations
13:34 < xmj> that's just Bullshit.
13:34 <@kanzure> entelechios: you seem to be incapable of responding to me in any meaningful way
13:35 < entelechios> i think that giving speed to kids on a wide basis has been a mistake. so do a lot of medical professionals who are shying away from giving many kids speed
13:35 < entelechios> i don't think the adhd diagnosis is entirely bogus but i do think that we could be at least trying to figure out better ways of treating it
13:35 <@kanzure> you're changing your opinions every other message
13:37 <@kanzure> you have also demonstrated that you don't know what adhd is
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13:40 < entelechios> adhd is what emerges when you start to raise children on a steady diet of distraction and their genes aren't tuned enough to deal with that diet
13:40 <@kanzure> yawn
13:40 <@kanzure> you have been so extremely discredited that i don't know why you continue to speak
13:41 < entelechios> because fuck off and die, that's why
13:41 -!- entelechios was kicked from ##hplusroadmap by kanzure [entelechios]
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13:41 <@kanzure> pls stay out
13:41 < entelechios> what can i say you started it with the hostility
13:41 < entelechios> with that exact same phrase
13:41 <@kanzure> my hostility has been proven to be 100% fucking justified
13:41 <@kanzure> i am able to use my memory of you and my ability to read your messages to draw conclusions
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13:54  * nsh licks entelechios in the eyeballs relentlessly
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14:10 < chris_99> kanzure, what are you wanting to use ultrasound for?
14:10 <@kanzure> "the psycho-neurotic institute for the very, very nervous"
14:10 <@kanzure> chris_99: imaging and neuron stimulation
14:11 < chris_99> imagine neuron activity somehow?
14:11 < chris_99> *imaging
14:12 < chris_99> is that more precise than EEG
14:13 <@_archels> unless I missed something, imaging can only resolve structural features and BOLD
14:14 <@kanzure> nope not imaging neurons
14:14 < chris_99> oh ok
14:14 <@kanzure> main point was neuron stimulation
14:14 <@kanzure> but ultrasound imaging is pretty common and uses basically the same equipment
14:14 < chris_99> ok
14:14 <@kanzure> and for some reason ultrasound imaging machines are $20-$50k
14:14 <@kanzure> and i figure a functional imaging device could be constructed and sold for <$500
14:14 <@_archels> it makes sense: locate the nerve or region of interest with a structural scan, then direct your energy there
14:15 < chris_99> what kind of power do you need to stimulate
14:15 <@kanzure> maybe 300 mW/cm^2
14:16 <@_archels> what's the point-spread function is what I'd like to know
14:16 <@kanzure> at 250-750 kHz
14:17 <@ParahSailin> augustus gloop is german
14:17 <@kanzure> _archels: how would i find that or calculate that?
14:18 <@_archels> I don't have an answer for that right now
14:18 <@_archels> numerical simulation, perhaps
14:19 <@kanzure> i did see a paper with a handful of "PSFs" the other day, actually
14:19 <@kanzure> but it was not a neuroscience paper
14:21 <@_archels> paperbot: http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0041-624X(08)00181-9
14:21 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/f391802da42b816a077871f75ca79dcb.txt
14:22 < entelechios> ultrasonic neuromodulation is pretty neat
14:22 < entelechios> has it gone beyond those people over at tylerlab a huge lot yet?
14:23 < chris_99> do you guys have any opions of the Scio, i've backed it in the hope it's not a) a scam b) complete crap
14:23 <@_archels> In so doing, first we have identified key parameters of a PSF in
14:23 <@_archels> ultrasound imaging: they are axial depths of lateral and elevational
14:23 <@_archels> foci, the height and width of transducer elements in the ultrasound
14:23 <@_archels> imaging system, and the speed of sound and frequency-dependent
14:23 <@_archels> attenuation of the impulse response in soft tissue.
14:24 <@kanzure> chris_99: strange that you would ask for opinions /after/ backing?
14:24 <@_archels> paperbot: http://turingbirds.com/temp/1-s2.0-S0041624X08001819-main.pdf
14:24 < paperbot> TypeError: unicode() argument 2 must be string, not None (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/models.py", line 825, in text)
14:24 <@_archels> so how does one obtain the axial depths of lateral and elevational foci?
14:24 <@kanzure> wat
14:25 <@kanzure> how did paperbot fail on that one
14:25 <@_archels> er
14:25 < chris_99> kanzure, heh true, i'm still curious though
14:25 <@_archels> perhaps there's unicode in the filename?
14:25 <@ParahSailin> paperbot failed because it tried to lxml a pdf file
14:26 <@kanzure> aha, thanks
14:27 <@kanzure> but the error is requests/models.py
14:27 <@ParahSailin> oh, then who knows
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14:59 <@kanzure> secondmarket's bitcoin survey results http://www.bitcointrust.co/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Bitcoin-Survey_Final.png
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15:09 <@_archels> .title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24509078
15:09 < yoleaux> Optogenetic stimulation of the auditory pathway. [J Clin Invest. 2014]
15:09 <@_archels> this is *fucking awesome*
15:10 <@_archels> this is going to lead to clinical approval for optogenetics in postnatal humans
15:10 <@kanzure> "ere, we used animal models to characterize optogenetic stimulation, which is the optical stimulation of neurons genetically engineered to express the light-gated ion channel channelrhodopsin-2 (ChR2). Optogenetic stimulation of spiral ganglion neurons (SGNs) activated the auditory pathway, as demonstrated by recordings of single neuron and neuronal population responses. Furthermore, optogenetic stimulation of SGNs restored auditory activity ...
15:11 <@kanzure> ... in deaf mice. Approximation of the spatial spread of cochlear excitation by recording local field potentials (LFPs) in the inferior colliculus in response to suprathreshold optical, acoustic, and electrical stimuli indicated that optogenetic stimulation achieves better frequency resolution than monopolar electrical stimulation. Virus-mediated expression of a ChR2 variant with greater light sensitivity in SGNs reduced the amount of light ...
15:11 <@kanzure> ... required for responses and allowed neuronal spiking following stimulation up to 60 Hz."
15:11 <@kanzure> hmm, so this virus does genomic integration i guess?
15:11 <@_archels> yeah, they used retroviruses
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15:17 < fenn> bionic ears
15:20 < fenn> wouldn't you need more than just a single LED to get any improvement over 16-channel electrode arrays?
15:20 < fenn> like an OLED array or some kind of scanner
15:21 < fenn> can they make DMDs that small?
15:21 <@_archels> yeah, you'd need a 1D array
15:21 <@_archels> DMD?
15:21 < fenn> micro electromechanical mirror array (digital micromirror device)
15:21 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@179.126.87.36] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]
15:22 < fenn> good for projecting a pattern of laser dots
15:24 <@_archels> with the right kind of fibre, yeah
15:25 <@_archels> that'd be nice; being able to insert a fully passive fibre insead of a LED array on a flexible substrate
15:25 < fenn> i forgot about honeycomb fibers
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15:37 < fenn> 126 AD: The Pantheon was rebuilt in Rome using a honeycomb structure to support its dome.
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15:48 < delinquentme> is it a misnomer to refer to 'viral particles ' ?
15:49 <@_archels> they're really waves
15:50 < gradstudentbot> I need to send that abstract.
15:54 < fenn> .gc "viral waves"
15:54 < yoleaux> 5,800 (site), 5,560 (end), 208 (api)
15:54 < fenn> .gc "viral particles"
15:54 < yoleaux> 673,000 (site), 95,600 (api)
15:54 < fenn> .gc "viral wave-particle duality"
15:54 < yoleaux> 0 (site)
15:54 < fenn> pick your poison
15:59 < jrayhawk> fenn: FWIW I think optimally cgit should have an option to generate a list of links based on regexes when someone looks at a file
16:00 < jrayhawk> but i am no good with C
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16:08 < fenn> not sure what cgit has to do with it
16:09 < fenn> user pushes to git, post-receive hook tells bot to say filename/url of file
16:09 < fenn> the url points to the wiki
16:09 < fenn> cgit comes in where?
16:10 < fenn> i mean there should be a url to the diff too, but that's a separate issue
16:10 < jrayhawk> cgit shows the actual changes, optionally linking to compilation products produced
16:11 < jrayhawk> this would also add some symmetry since ikiwiki gladly links to cgit, but cgit does not normally reciprocate
16:11 < fenn> that is a good point
16:12 < gradstudentbot> So, I'll let you have my reagents when I'm done with my project.
16:15 < delinquentme>  Urine excretion of EGF approximated 1.5 micrograms/h or 25 ng/mg creatine.
16:15 < delinquentme> https://www.goldbio.com/EGF-IGF-1-VEGF-C238.php?gclid=CJjLn6Ldmr4CFc5ffgodoEUAeA
16:15 < fenn> delinquentme: you should call it "pink slime" instead of "ECM"
16:16 < delinquentme> in a 3rd world country you could dispose of piss and monetize it.
16:16 < delinquentme> and the gates foundation would be interested
16:16 < delinquentme> fenn, whys that
16:16 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-177-134.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:16 < fenn> it's more visceral, people would immediately grasp the nature of your product
16:16 < fenn> also, ghostbusters
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16:17 < fenn> .wik pink slime
16:17 < yoleaux> ""Pink slime" is the common name for a controversial beef product. The names used in the meat industry are "lean finely textured beef," abbreviated LFTB, and "boneless lean beef trimmings," or BLBT." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_slime
16:18 < delinquentme> fenn, you're pretty good for not having a marketing degree
16:18 < fenn> i've been studying social artistry.
16:18 <@kanzure> marketing degrees are not necessary
16:19  * fenn preens expertly
16:21 < fenn> in 2012 "The three plants produced a total of about 900,000 pounds of the product per day." raspberry frozen yogurt for everyone!
16:21 <@kanzure> .ety preen
16:21 < yoleaux> preen (v.): ""to trim, to dress up," late 14c., perhaps a variation of Middle English proynen, proinen "trim the feather with the beak" (see prune (v.)); or perhaps from Old French poroindre "anoint before," and Old French proignier "round off, prune."  …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=preen
16:21 < fenn> .d preen
16:21 < yoleaux> preen (/priːn/): v. (Of a bird) tidy and clean its feathers with its beak: reed buntings ⁓ed at the pool’s edge — http://is.gd/yfKzmh
16:22 < fenn> aw how can they not have the image of pink slime on wikipedia
16:24 <@kanzure> cultural suppression
16:24 < fenn> i guess i don't see what the big deal is, ammonium hydroxide isn't that bad
16:26 < fenn> It has been mockingly termed "soylent pink." image submitted by user Tyler Durden: com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/03/pink-slime
16:26 < delinquentme> ok you two think tanks. Why would the above mentioned operation be a bad business model.
16:27 <@kanzure> fuck off
16:27 < fenn> recycling EGF for ... ?
16:28 < delinquentme> fenn, to sell
16:28 < fenn> "Serum concentration of VEGF is high in bronchial asthma and diabetes mellitus."
16:28 < delinquentme> kanzure, whats the issue?
16:28 < delinquentme> https://www.goldbio.com/EGF-IGF-1-VEGF-C238.php?gclid=CJjLn6Ldmr4CFc5ffgodoEUAeA
16:28 < fenn> he's just tired of you coming here and asking for business plans or whatever
16:29 < delinquentme> $50 bucks for a 3rd world country is substantial ... and thats just one protein .  Claims are 1.5um / hr by typical healthy humans
16:29 < delinquentme> stupid to be upset over that.
16:29 < fenn> those are for molecular biology research, not injecting into poor people
16:29 < fenn> most of the cost is the purity and science markup
16:30 < fenn> "Growth Factors & Stem Cell Reagents"
16:30 < delinquentme> So any efficiency created would be in the refinement
16:30 < delinquentme> kanzure, i wasn't being facetious either
16:30 < fenn> they probably need to be frozen constantly
16:31 < fenn> i just dont get why you would want EGF in the first place
16:31 < fenn> "someone's selling it" doesn't count
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16:31 < delinquentme> sure. but its a possible indication of a market
16:31 < fenn> no it's not
16:32 < fenn> there are 90 zillion compounds in the sigma catalog, most of which have no market opportunity outside of the sigma catalog
16:32 <@kanzure> 90 zillion is accurate
16:32 < fenn> .wa 90 zillion in metric
16:32 < delinquentme> noted.
16:32 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result!
16:32 < delinquentme> thanks fenn
16:34 < gradstudentbot> Still haven't cured cancer.
16:34 < fenn> is there an open source wolfram alpha clone?
16:35 < fenn> sage is pretty good, but it doesn't have the database or the natural language interface
16:35 <@kanzure> nsh: seems like your department
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16:36 < nsh> not aware of one
16:36 < nsh> it's main value is pretty proprietary / difficult to replicate
16:36 < nsh> *its
16:36 < fenn> why is it proprietary? the idea has been around forever
16:37 < fenn> its main value is lots of pedantic data assimilation
16:37 < fenn> it doesn't even do a good job at understanding natural language
16:38 < fenn> .wa accelerate at 1 gravity for 1 second distance
16:38 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result!
16:38 < fenn> it doesn't know that "accelerate" == "acceleration"
16:39 < fenn> .wa acceleration 1 gravity for 1 second distance
16:39 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result!
16:39 < fenn> .wa acceleration 1 gravity for 1 second what is the distance
16:39 <@kanzure> i thought that after the 60s everyone agreed to stop caring about natural language stuff
16:39 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result!
16:39 < fenn> hm, mosasaur figured it out eventually
16:42 < fenn> the .wik command is pretty good for most "what is" type queries
16:42 < fenn> .wik wet noodle
16:42 < yoleaux> "A wet noodle is a strip or string of pasta that has become soft and flaccid after being soaked in water. The term is used in a number of non-literal ways, generally based on the visual image of spaghetti noodles that are long and straight when dry, including:" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_noodle
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16:44 < fenn> .d wet noodle
16:44 < yoleaux> Sorry, I couldn't find a definition for 'wet noodle'.
16:45 < fenn> .wa what is a wet noodle
16:45 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result!
16:46 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
16:46 < fenn> anyway, freebase has a ton of stuff in it
16:46 <@kanzure> yawn
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16:47 < fenn> ok mister smartypants, find the etymology of "wet noodle" without using a search engine
16:47 <@kanzure> why am i doing that
16:48 <@kanzure> i thought i was trying to fund enough mental capacity to look at DSPs
16:48 < gradstudentbot> Let's pour a bunch of chemlights into a spinner flask and claim it's luminescent e.coli.
16:48 < fenn> fine, automatically generate a list of DSP's sorted by their relevant characteristics
16:49 <@kanzure> that wont be done by natural language processing
16:49 <@kanzure> because the data isn't there
16:49 -!- pasky_ is now known as pasky
16:49 <@kanzure> it's just in unreadable pdfs
16:49 < fenn> the data is too there, it's just in a natural language format
16:49 <@kanzure> well that's useless to me
16:50 <@kanzure> who cares?
16:50 < fenn> because ...
16:50 < fenn> do i really have to explain this
16:50 < fenn> because if you had a natural language parser, it would parse the datasheets into a structured data format that you could sort
16:50 <@kanzure> i haven't seen any evidence of that
16:50 < fenn> huh?
16:50 <@kanzure> so far it seems to require humans transcribing data manually
16:51 < fenn> no, that's the stupid way to do it
16:51 < delinquentme> Ive read some research that suggests heads of operations significantly define the character of an organization
16:51 < fenn> that's just mechanical turk
16:52 < fenn> besides, the structure of datasheets is pretty regular
16:52 <@kanzure> sounds like you're the smartypands
16:53 <@kanzure> why should i want this in natural language form anyway, FUCK that
16:53 <@kanzure> just give me some json files and commands
16:53 < cpopell`working> Man, envision the future of the human race: instead of a boot heel stomping on a face forever, it's people transcribing unstructured data to structured because it's cheaper than automating parts of it, forever
16:53 < cpopell`working> (not really, but damn what a depressing thought)
16:54 < fenn> what i'm saying is, it's cheaper to teach a computer to do it
16:54 < fenn> actually, it's cheaper to teach a computer to teach a human to teach a computer how to do it, but that doesn't sound as good
16:55 <@kanzure> and all of this is so that i don't have to go to ti.com and lookup that file i am supposed to be reading?
16:55 < fenn> right
16:55 <@kanzure> yak shaving
16:56 < fenn> you say, "yoleaux, what DSP should i use for ultrasound"
16:56 < fenn> yoleaux says "not enough parameters defined"
16:56 <@kanzure> that's a bad question
16:56 <@kanzure> no, even with parameters
16:56 <@kanzure> sigh
16:56 <@kanzure> you should konw that
16:56 <@kanzure> *know
16:56 < fenn> why is it a bad question?
16:57 <@kanzure> because it's entirely possible to do ultrasound things without DSPs
16:57 <@kanzure> the two things are very unrelated
16:57 < fenn> i say, "yoleaux, what DSP is capable of inverting a 256x256 matrix in 10 milliseconds"
16:57 < fenn> or whatever
16:57 <@kanzure> still underdefined
16:57 < fenn> and it looks at the datasheets, does some unit conversions, and tells me a list of DSPs
16:58 <@kanzure> why are you so interested in natural language
16:58 < fenn> because there's so much of it out there
16:58 <@kanzure> well, that's their fault
16:58 < fenn> but that doesn't change anything
16:58 <@kanzure> you don't have to suffer that
16:58 < fenn> but i do suffer from it
16:58 <@kanzure> kill them
16:58 < fenn> that doesn't solve the problem
16:58 <@kanzure> just because they exist doesn't mean that it's worth your time to do any of that
16:59 <@kanzure> or to even bother with it
16:59 < fenn> how else is data ever going to get into a structured format?
16:59 < fenn> preferably in the ontology i want it in
16:59 <@kanzure> you mean other than "fenn writing the ultimate natural language ai thingy"? well, for one, people can stop being morons and not publish datasheets as pdfs.
17:00 < fenn> but what about all the old pdfs
17:00 <@kanzure> ~/archive and forget
17:00 < fenn> that's as good as deleting them
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17:00 < fenn> i'm not arguing for anything more complex than OCR
17:01 <@kanzure> well for one you invoked "replicate everything about wolfram alpha"
17:01 <@kanzure> which is much more than OCR
17:01 < fenn> i didn't say it was ocr
17:02 < fenn> ok OCR is a classifier that has 100 or so categories of targets (the characters and punctuation)
17:02 <@kanzure> that doesn't seem to be relevant
17:03 < fenn> it can assign probabilities to various hypotheses about which character it is, and add to the probability based on context
17:03 <@kanzure> i am trying to convince you that yak shvaing is yak shvaing
17:03 <@kanzure> *shaving
17:03 < fenn> well why should i care about an ultrasound machine more than an ontological assimilator
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17:04 <@kanzure> why should you care about anything at all? :)
17:04 < fenn> hitler
17:04  * fenn watches tv
17:05 < gradstudentbot> Hey, I got 100% yield! Oh wait, no.
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18:33 <@kanzure> and now they get to keep my prescriptions
18:56 <@kanzure> this has some interesting numbers http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-06/alibaba-files-ipo
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19:01 <@kanzure> "Fuck Pulte homes made out of shoddy lumber and crap drywall for $20 a sq ft. I'll buy a kit home from Alibaba for $2.50 a sq ft and put it together myself. Is crap Chinese steel worse than shit fiberboard? Seriously go to Alibaba and check out the steel frame kit homes. Makes the 1950s prefabs look like rejects from a trailer park."
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19:12 <@kanzure> the other thread is about stockpiling bacteria cultures "because of the coming collapse/apocalypse", hah
19:12 <@kanzure> i guess that's a nice take on the prepper idea
19:22  * nsh collects heirloom tweed
19:23 <@kanzure> .d tweed
19:23 < yoleaux> kanzure: Sorry, that command (.d) crashed.
19:23 <@kanzure> alright
19:23 <@kanzure> so much botfail
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19:39 < nsh> .w tweed
19:39 < yoleaux> nsh: Sorry, that command (.w) crashed.
19:39 < nsh> software is hard
19:40 <@kanzure> i don't understand
19:42 < nmz787_i> after I use subprocess.popen and redirect stdout to PIPE... from the new process how do I  end the PIPE connection?
19:43 < nmz787_i> since I have a listener at the initiating side of the PIPE, and I can control what the new process prints... I'm thinking I send some special string that the listener hears and closes the connection
19:47 <@ParahSailin> exit?
19:51 < gradstudentbot> I'll be at the microscope.
19:51 < nmz787_i> I don't want to exit the new process, just redirect stdout from the PIPE to elsewhere
19:56 <@ParahSailin> you want to close the parent's fd?
20:06 < fenn> "The biggest fear US retailers should have is consumers seeing what items really cost. Alibaba can upset the entire chain of US commerce once people realize that big box retail adds 500% markup just for putting something on a shelf."
20:07 < fenn> i've seen a lot of chinese sellers popping up on Amazon, but their prices are nowhere near what's listed on Alibaba, why?
20:08 <@kanzure> alibaba probably has intense competition?
20:08 <@kanzure> i mean, listing on alibaba exposes you to intense competition?
20:08 < fenn> well they haven't done a good job of making a "walled garden" or whatever vendor lockin strategy facebook uses
20:09 < fenn> i get emails all the time from chinese factories, dunno if they're from alibaba or skdb documentation crawlers though
20:09 <@kanzure> according to these infonumber pixel graphical artifacts, the majority of alibaba sales are not from the interesting industrial byproducts
20:09 <@kanzure> that china spam is just being sent to everyone i think
20:09 <@kanzure> i started to collect it a while back
20:09 < fenn> what is the majority of sales?
20:10 <@kanzure> according to that last zerohedge.com link, it's just typical commerce stuff
20:10 < fenn> SAINTBOND scales and geotextile, shipped to you!
20:10 <@kanzure> "fashion" "food" "consumer electronics"
20:10 <@kanzure> "books"
20:10 < fenn> food?
20:10 < fenn> huh? where do you buy food from china?
20:10 <@kanzure> http://www.alibaba.com/Products
20:11 <@kanzure> "Food & Beverage(1518531)" http://www.alibaba.com/Food-Beverage_p2
20:11 <@kanzure> heh http://www.alibaba.com/Instant-Food_pid216
20:12 <@kanzure> "Jamila Chicken Soup Bouillon Cube,10g spices" "10 Metric Tons (Min. Order)"
20:12 <@kanzure> man i love this site
20:12 < gradstudentbot> That's definitely not repeatable.
20:12 < fenn> what's the price per ton of chicken bouillon?
20:12 <@kanzure> hrmm http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/chicken-bouillon-cube-msg-free_444747123.html?s=p
20:12 <@kanzure> well.
20:13 <@kanzure> "10g/piece, 60 pieces/box, 24 boxes/carton, 14.4 kg/carton"
20:13 < fenn> 30USD for 14.4kg?
20:13 < fenn> that's ... extremely cheap
20:13 < fenn> can you actually buy things in reasonable quantities tho? like one carton
20:14 < fenn> i can never figure it out because they are trying to size me up and we have to do this stupid dance
20:14 < fenn> just give me a fucking "buy it now" button
20:14 <@kanzure> nope you have to sign up to qq first
20:14 <@kanzure> and then learn chinese emoticon customs
20:14 <@kanzure> or just bug ParahSailin
20:15 < fenn> somehow they manage to ship single items for less than a dollar for ebay
20:15 < fenn> i don't get why alibaba is so hard to use
20:16 <@ParahSailin> you want taobao if you want to buy one
20:16 <@ParahSailin> alibaba is for the container load
20:16 < fenn> but i usually want weird scientific/industrial shit that is only on alibaba
20:16 <@kanzure> i wonder if there's any money to be made in making pretty interfaces to alibaba ordering
20:17 < fenn> i don't want a pretty interface, i want a 'buy it now' button
20:17 < fenn> and a price would be good too
20:17 <@kanzure> that's called a pretty interface
20:17 <@kanzure> the button, i mean
20:17 < fenn> that's not a pretty interface, i don't care if it's a button or what, i just want a price and the ability to buy the product
20:17 < fenn> it could be an API call for all i care
20:17 <@kanzure> yeah, i think an automatic price thing could be doable based on just looking at the page and estimating based on their peer listings
20:17 < fenn> i don't want to have to talk to "sharon" or "elaine" or whatever crap name they made up
20:18 <@kanzure> thankfully it's not "call to discuss price"
20:18 <@kanzure> it's slightly less terrible
20:18 <@kanzure> overall a good trend!
20:18 <@ParahSailin> thats vaguely racist
20:18 <@kanzure> no, i don't want to phone ANYONE
20:18 < fenn> it's vaguely racist to pretend your name is "sharon" when you're a chinese factory worker
20:18 <@kanzure> fun fact, but nobody ever calls me, despite my phone number being tacked on to the end of every email ever
20:18 <@kanzure> it's actually really nice
20:19 <@kanzure> i wouldn't mind talking to any of you guys, but you don't even need to ring me
20:19 <@kanzure> http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/American-Piezoelectric-crystals_898394445.html?s=p
20:19 <@ParahSailin> pretty much everyone in china picked an english name in high school
20:19 <@kanzure> "American Piezoelectric crystals"
20:20 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: why are they not fond of name disambiguation?
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20:20 <@kanzure> "The piezoelectric power generating sheet has a high electromechanical coupling coefficient,the LED lamp can be lit during normal pressing under conditions."
20:20 <@kanzure> "under conditions"
20:20 <@ParahSailin> the english names tend to be a couple generations out of fashion, but theyre still names they identify by
20:21 < fenn> ok, so it's a name they go by, i still don't want to have to tell them my life story just to order a kilogram of nickel powder
20:21 <@ParahSailin> anything specific you want from china within the next two weeks?
20:22 < fenn> i think they wanted something like $100 to ship me a kilogram
20:22 <@ParahSailin> its not really worth their time to sell a single unit of some small item
20:22 < eudoxia> ParahSailin: i always though the asian guys we worked with were actually called ewan and kevin or something
20:22 < fenn> just for shipping
20:22 <@ParahSailin> eudoxia: one of the coolest english names ive seen was a hk guy called kawin
20:23 < eudoxia> that's a pretty cool name
20:23 < fenn> see that's bullshit, they have enough time to give me the run around but not enough time to just sell me a product?
20:23 <@kanzure> mom wants to know if i want a $9 x-ray of my neck. because it's cheap.
20:23 <@ParahSailin> fenn: shipping is expensive unless its lcl or something
20:23 < fenn> what's lcl?
20:23 <@ParahSailin> less than container load
20:24 < fenn> and what does that mean
20:24 <@kanzure> oh, it's normally $150. okay, that's not worth it.
20:24 <@ParahSailin> its really not worth their trouble to figure out logistics for selling a single unit of some cheap thing
20:24 < fenn> but it's all their things
20:25 < fenn> actually it was 10g, not a kilogram
20:25 < fenn> $100 to ship 10g of powder
20:26 < gradstudentbot> I don't know what to tell you, I thought I would have graduated by now.
20:26 < fenn> they were willing to throw in a free sample, but after 5 emails i got tired of it and bought something from ukraine (which still hasn't arrived, almost a year later)
20:26 < fenn> i'm probably on some nuclear terrorism watchlist now
20:27 < eudoxia> who isn't lol
20:27 <@ParahSailin> do you need any equipment from china in the next two weeks or so?
20:28 <@kanzure> fenn is currently space-constrained i think
20:28 <@kanzure> and mass-constrained
20:28 <@kanzure> hrm, i should have a wishlist of random junk
20:28 <@ParahSailin> well, it would be something that would have to fit in a checked bag or carryon
20:29 <@kanzure> ah.
20:29 <@kanzure> fenn: on a morbid note, i've often wondered what i would do with mom's business whenever she passes
20:29 < fenn> i am sort of wondering about the relative price of LED strip lighting
20:29 <@ParahSailin> the furniture thing?
20:29 <@kanzure> fenn: i wouldn't want to run that business at all, but if it had to be closed down, i might take her shop
20:29 <@kanzure> it's turned into expensive cabinets :)
20:30 < fenn> she and les should get married :P
20:30 <@kanzure> they would never see each other
20:30 < fenn> exactly
20:30 <@kanzure> she's the type that wants company
20:31 < fenn> and she's your mother?
20:31 <@kanzure> huh?
20:31 < fenn> so your grandmother, the one who reads next big future, is that on your mom's side or your dad's side?
20:31 <@kanzure> mom's side
20:32 < eudoxia> next big future isn't that bad, occasionally (once every two years or so) they post MNT/zyvex stuff
20:32 < eudoxia> well, rather, he posts
20:32 < fenn> i like it, very broad range of stuff that i'm also interested in
20:34 <@kanzure> it's really weird how she has more of an idea of what's going on in my life than my mom does (considering i speak with mom more?)
20:34 < gradstudentbot> Can I borrow some sulphuric acid?
20:34 < fenn> wow http://nextbigfuture.com/2014/05/south-korea-has-best-plastic-surgeons.html
20:35 < fenn> DNA test time
20:36 <@kanzure> nice "Travelers can use the certificate to help convince immigration officials on the return trip home."
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20:39 < fenn> .wik venicula
20:39 < yoleaux> "Within each osseo-aponeurotic canal the tendons of the Flexor digitorum superficialis (Flexores digitorum sublimis although accurate is no longer a common description) and profundus are connected to each other, and to the phalanges, by slender, tendinous bands, called vincula tendina. There are two sets of these:" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincula_tendina
20:39 < fenn> aw that's not what i meant
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20:39 <@kanzure> i wonder if plastic surgery can make your hands type faster
20:39 < fenn> .wik bunnicula
20:39 < yoleaux> "Bunnicula is a children's book series written by James Howe (and his late wife Deborah in the case of "Bunnicula") about a vampire bunny that sucks the juice out of vegetables. It is also the name of the first book in the series, published 1979 (ISBN 0-689-80659-0)." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunnicula
20:40 < gradstudentbot> Still haven't cured cancer.
20:40 <@ParahSailin> south korea has lots of reality tv shows about picking the ugliest applicant and making her pretty
20:40 <@kanzure> i have slightly reduced control of 4 and 5 compared to the others
20:41 <@kanzure> and it's symmetrical, applying to both hands
20:41 < fenn> do they give them plastic surgery or just lots of "styling"
20:41 <@ParahSailin> extensive surgery
20:41 <@kanzure> actually, i suppose finger 5 is okay compared to 4.
20:42 <@ParahSailin> like, science fiction
20:42 < fenn> kanzure: that's normal
20:42 <@kanzure> yes it's normal but it's also stupid
20:44 < fenn> The middle finger is often used for finger snapping together with the thumb.[citation needed]
20:44 < fenn> do we really need a citation on that?
20:44 <@kanzure> it would be nice to have citation of stuff you encounter in every day life
20:44 <@kanzure> so that i can stop wondering about the swirls in my cereal or the magnification effect of drops of water on my glasses
20:44 < fenn> "modern humans generally eat breakfast in the mornings after waking up"
20:44 < fenn> journal of obvious observations
20:45 <@kanzure> i'd rea dit
20:45 <@kanzure> *read it
20:45 < fenn> i had several eye doctors who were either unaware of "entoptic phenomena" or unwilling to discuss it
20:45 < fenn> .wik entoptic phenomenon
20:45 < yoleaux> "Entoptic phenomena (from Greek ἐντός "within" and ὀπτικός "visual") are visual effects whose source is within the eye itself. (Occasionally, these are called entopic phenomena, which is probably a typographical mistake.)" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entoptic_phenomenon
20:46 < fenn> anyway you can see all sorts of weird shit if you pay attention
20:46 <@kanzure> "In Helmholtz's words; "Under suitable conditions light falling on the eye may render visible certain objects within the eye itself. These perceptions are called entoptical.""
20:46 <@kanzure> oh well that's easy, helmholtz didn't exist therefore all of his commentary is ignorable
20:46 < fenn> if you stare at a blue sky you can see blood cells moving around in the veins
20:47 < fenn> if you close your eyes and stare at the sun you can see "dust motes" or some kind of turbulent fluid flow, i still haven't figured out what this is, probably edge detector feedback
20:47 <@kanzure> "The Prisoner's cinema is a phenomenon reported by prisoners confined to dark cells and by others kept in darkness, voluntarily or not, for long periods of time. It has also been reported by truck drivers, pilots, and practitioners of intense meditation"
20:47 <@kanzure> "practicioners of intense meditation" rather than the less intense subtype
20:47 < eudoxia> Scintillating scotoma is the worst
20:47 < eudoxia> and it's weird because i've never had a migraine?
20:47 < fenn> while staring at the sun with your eyes closed, wave your fingers in front of your eyes, all sorts of patterns appear
20:48 < fenn> they always thought i was talking about "floaters" but everybody knows what floaters are
20:48 < fenn> .wik floaters
20:48 < yoleaux> "Floaters are deposits of various size, shape, consistency, refractive index, and motility within the eye’s vitreous humour, which is normally transparent. At a young age, the vitreous is transparent, but as one ages, imperfections gradually develop." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floaters
20:48 <@kanzure> the only reasonable plastic surgery of the hand is the type that adds a nitro booster
20:49 < fenn> just remember to take your B12
20:49 < fenn> nitrous can make you deficient
20:49 <@kanzure> because everyone should have some b12?
20:49 <@kanzure> oh i see
20:49 < fenn> (a built in crack pipe?)
20:50 < fenn> this barely looks like anything https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/Scintillating_scotoma_interpretation.gif
20:53 < eudoxia> mine look like those black and white optical illusions
20:53 <@kanzure> $688/unit http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/THR-US6602-Economic-portable-ultrasonic-transducer_548685087.html
20:54 <@kanzure> this is the type with the weird keyboard
20:54 <@kanzure> heh running windows
20:54 < fenn> wtf why would anyone buy a CRT
20:55 <@kanzure> "Supply Ability: 15000 Unit/Units per Month"
20:55 <@kanzure> that's the whole product
20:55 < jrayhawk> because CRTs stack more easily than LCDs!
20:55 < jrayhawk> duh!
20:55 < fenn> not when they have round handles on top
20:56 < jrayhawk> if another opportunity came up to buy an FW900 for $50, I would totally take it
20:56 <@kanzure> "THR Medical, Professional in Hospital Furniture & Medical Equipment!!" what sort of weird world is this
20:56 <@kanzure> "!!!!! hospital furniture!!!"
20:56 <@kanzure> "Being Your Private Secretary!! "
20:56 <@kanzure> "Competing in a fast developing country, China, Zhangjiagang Thriving Import & Export Co., Ltd is a rapidly growing company. To keep us at the top of this competition, our company has advanced equipment and five large-scale production lines. Besides, we also have cooperated with several hi-tech factories. "
20:57 < fenn> jrayhawk: your monitors weighs 92 pounds?
20:59 <@kanzure> hrm i should do some alibaba seo stuff
20:59 <@kanzure> .title http://www.biotrac.com/pages/Tracs/Trac55.html
20:59 < yoleaux> TRAC 55: Engineering with CRISPR, TALENs, and ZFNs
21:00 <@kanzure> fenn: have you ever met phil goetz?
21:00 < fenn> uh maybe? did he write for wired at one point?
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21:00 <@kanzure> dunno if he did, but even if he did it's not why you should know him
21:01 <@kanzure> phil says "next week they have a course on animal+human cell culture" (in DC)
21:01 < cpopell`working> he lives near me
21:01 <@kanzure> yeah, i want fenn to meet him
21:01 < fenn> so not in austin
21:01 <@kanzure> he's in DC
21:01 < fenn> why do people have such generic names
21:02 < fenn> hi, i'm john smith, from smith and smith
21:02 <@kanzure> this is the other transhumanist ex-bodybuilder
21:02 <@kanzure> who presently does biology things for craig venter
21:02 <@kanzure> where in DC do you live?
21:03 < fenn> arlington
21:03 <@kanzure> he says it is very close
21:05 < fenn> The honeymoon was out of a dimestore romance. I had the brains, she had the looks, and together we made a lovely couple. Widescreen movies and gaming (in those titles that supported it) was intoxicating. Carrying her mammoth-like girth over my third-floor threshold nearly killed me (literally), but otherwise we had the makings of a solid, long-lasting relationship.
21:06 < fenn> why are amazon reviews so much better than anywhere else?
21:07 <@kanzure> check your inbox
21:08 <@kanzure> i wish i was better at geographically remembering which people are supposed to be meeting
21:09 < fenn> that's for the computer to figure out
21:09 < gradstudentbot> Hey, does anyone have an extra undergrad?
21:09 < cluckj> <kanzure> this is the other transhumanist ex-bodybuilder <-- does not really narrow it down, I think
21:10 <@kanzure> well, there's only two
21:10 <@kanzure> jojack and the other guy
21:10 < fenn> max more?
21:10 <@kanzure> iirc max more never
21:10 < fenn> i dunno, he seemed beefy
21:10 < cluckj> he did seem kinda beefy
21:10 < eudoxia> wasn't there a guy who was a chemist/bodybuilder that kanz mentioned to eleitl, unless it's this guy
21:11 <@kanzure> the chemist is someone who is not explicitly transhumanist
21:11 < cluckj> oh
21:11 < gradstudentbot> Let's pour a bunch of chemlights into a spinner flask and claim it's luminescent e.coli.
21:11 < catern> oh gradstudentbot
21:11 < gradstudentbot> So, people always joke about that, but I feel like weaving baskets underwater would not be the easiest thing in the world.
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21:13 < eudoxia> also what's his name dvorsky
21:13 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transhumanist_bodybuilders
21:13 < cluckj> lol
21:13 <@kanzure> it was patrick arnold
21:14 <@kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Arnold
21:14 < fenn> oh i've actually heard of him
21:14 <@kanzure> "Patrick Arnold is an American organic chemist known for introducing androstenedione, 1-Androstenediol, and methylhexanamine into the dietary supplement market, and for creating the designer steroid tetrahydrogestrinone, also known as THG and "the clear".[1] THG, along with two other anabolic steroids that Patrick Arnold manufactured (norbolethone and desoxymethyltestosterone (DMT), were drugs at the heart of the BALCO professional sports ...
21:14 <@kanzure> ... doping scandal.[2] At the time of their creation, they were not on any banned substance list. BALCO distributed these worldwide to world class athletes from a wide variety of sports ranging from track and field to professional baseball and football."
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21:14 <@kanzure> "but he top-posted... loses old-skool points for that."
21:15 < fenn> he's talking about warburg's metabolic theory of cancer on his blog
21:16 <@kanzure> "Arnold was sentenced to three months in prison at Federal Correctional Institution, Morgantown in West Virginia for his role in the BALCO incident.[1]"
21:16 <@kanzure> 3 months! heh
21:16 <@kanzure> "you have now served your debt to society for having created awesome home runs"
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21:17 < fenn> i wonder if bodybuilding would be as sleazy as it is today if steroids hadn't been invented in the soviet union
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21:19 <@kanzure> are they on the commerce control list?
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21:22 < fenn> no they are on the controlled substances list
21:22 <@kanzure> oh right, the other other ohter list
21:22 <@kanzure> *other
21:22 < fenn> wait, i mean list of substances that are controlled list
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21:26 < fenn> Congress considered placing anabolic steroids under the Controlled Substances Act following the controversy over Ben Johnson's victory at the 1988 Summer Olympics in Seoul. During deliberations, the American Medical Association (AMA), Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), Food and Drug Administration (FDA) as well as the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) all opposed listing anabolic
21:26 < fenn> steroids as controlled substances, citing the fact that use of these hormones does not lead to the physical or psychological dependence required for such scheduling under the Controlled Substance Act. Nevertheless, anabolic steroids were added to Schedule III of the Controlled Substances Act in the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990.
21:27 < fenn> why? because communism is evil, and you wouldn't download a pizza.
21:28 < fenn> anabolic steroids are defined to be any drug or hormonal substance chemically and pharmacologically related to testosterone (other than estrogens, progestins, and corticosteroids) that promote muscle growth.
21:29 < fenn> so ... if it's not related to testosterone, it's not a controlled substance?
21:34 < fenn> .title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1797194/?tool=pubmed
21:34 < yoleaux> Novel phytoandrogens and lipidic augmenters from Eucommia ulmoides
21:34 < fenn> apparently this is sold legally "over the counter" because it is not related to testosterone?
21:37 < fenn> they also list daidzein; i thought that was a phytoestrogen
21:40 <@ParahSailin> maybe it had antiaromatase activity or sth
21:42 < fenn> "pecifically activate the tranactivational capacity of the sex steroid receptors"
21:42 < fenn> specifically*
21:42 < fenn> whatever that means
21:44 < FourFire> so, for those who even care /r/futurology got made a default subreddit, so the already not fantastic content is going to get noisier and much banhammering will occur
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21:45 < cluckj> what's reddit?
21:46 < fenn> a commenting system
21:47 < cluckj> oh
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21:49 <@kanzure> "why is this still unresolved? why doesn't someone sequence a bunch of tumors together with their mitochondrial dna?"
21:50 < fenn> i haven't looked into the warburg hypothesis, but what does mitochondrial dna have to do with it?
21:53 <@kanzure> "the idea is that cancer stems from mitochondrial dysfunction"
21:53 <@kanzure> "wikipedia says "Today, mutations in oncogenes and tumor suppressor genes are known to be responsible for malignant transformation, and the Warburg effect is considered to be a result of these mutations rather than a cause""
21:55 <@kanzure> "true that tumors are often found to have such mutations. I'm trying to think whether I consider that conclusive."
21:55 <@kanzure> "it requires finding that tumors with such mutations metabolize by glycolysis"
21:55 <@kanzure> "there's also a hypothesis that cancer can be caused by mitochondrial dna inserting into nuclear dna"
21:56 <@kanzure> "this is hypothesized bcoz there's lots of mitochondrial dna fragments in nuclear dna"
21:56 <@kanzure> "they might not be in the genbank sequences, if people strip out mito dna on the assumption that it's contamination"
21:57 < fenn> ok that's some other hypothesis
21:57 < fenn> and another hypothesis on top of that
21:58 < fenn> if "the idea is that cancer stems from mitochondrial dysfunction" then i see no reason why mitochondrial DNA has to get involved
21:58 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, but that was only a sample size of one.
22:00 < fenn> is it just me or is "oncogenes and tumor suppressor genes" not really an explantion
22:00 < fenn> "cancer is caused by genes that cause cancer and the failure of genes that prevent cancer"
22:01 < fenn> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02787340
22:01 < fenn> why am i reading this
22:01 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/How%20do%20mutated%20oncogenes%20and%20tumor%20suppressor%20genes%20cause%20cancer%3F.pdf
22:02 <@kanzure> because i'm ignoring your earlier question
22:03 < FourFire> mitchondrial DNA is more vulnerable to damage than nuclear DNA though
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22:04 < FourFire> due to how evolution doesn't design stuff, just randomly tests stuff by breaking it
22:09 <@kanzure> heh http://investor.gov/news-alerts/investor-alerts/investor-alert-bitcoin-other-virtual-currency-related-investments#.U2r0TlRDs-N
22:09 <@kanzure> "Security concerns. Bitcoin exchanges may stop operating or permanently shut down due to fraud, technical glitches, hackers or malware. Bitcoins also may be stolen by hackers."
22:10 < cluckj> oh no hackers
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22:31 < fenn> this article is pretty interesting, if anyone is doing body building https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoandrogen
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22:35 < fenn> delinquentme: "The isolation of gonadal steroids can be traced back to 1931, when Adolf Butenandt, a chemist in Marburg, purified 15 milligrams of the male hormone androstenone from tens of thousands of litres of urine." following in the path of, something
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22:58 < jrayhawk> fenn: that one broke, but yes
22:58 < jrayhawk> the 92 pound CRT
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23:10 < fenn> “Xenoandrogens – the new problem number 1”. You could think that this is a reaction to some athlete’s serious medical condition or even death caused by xenoandrogens. Not so. What is the biggest problem in the eyes of Dr. Smith is that the stuff actually works and still is legal. So basically, the message is that you can sell any sh*t and claim that it will make you huge but it may not
23:10 < fenn> really produce any results. This is OK. But a substance that lives up to its promises must be banned from professional sports as well as from shelves of nutrition shops.
23:12 < fenn> http://anti-doping.info/xenoandrogens-the-new-problem-no-1/
23:14 < fenn> elevated LDL is the best they can come up with
23:19 < fenn> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1749-6632.1989.tb14909.x/abstract
23:19 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/88da5544077f3a12aebc8d5b5f1a52cf.txt
23:19 < fenn> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1749-6632.1989.tb14909.x/pdf
23:20 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/1c2da1f0f99c774b9f88619558cbde08.txt
23:20 < fenn> aw. "PUBLICATION_OUTSIDE_OF_LICENSE_PERIOD"
23:20 < fenn> "this paper is too old, give us more money!!!"
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23:54 < delinquentme> fenn, are tools like HPLC difficult to master?  or at least tune for high purity?
23:58 <@kanzure> unnecessarily long http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhyWeHateLisp
23:59 <@kanzure> this isn't completely awful http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SimulationOfTheFuture
--- Log closed Thu May 08 00:00:54 2014