--- Log opened Sat May 10 00:00:00 2014 00:04 -!- ParahSailin [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:05 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:07 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:08 -!- ParahSailin [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:14 -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:18 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:24 < sheena1> who takes magnesium for allergies? i forget the dose 00:24 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27 <@_archels> .title http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00199/full 00:27 < yoleaux> Online transcranial Doppler ultrasonographic control of an onscreen keyboard 00:33 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:36 -!- catern_ [~catern@catern.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:37 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d173-183-72-139.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:45 -!- catern [~catern@108.174.58.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:45 -!- catern_ is now known as catern 00:55 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:04 < fenn> sheena1: 1 Tablespoon or 500mg, start slow. recently i got a "true HEPA" air filter and it actually helped 01:04 < sheena1> filtering air makes a big difference for me as well. im not at home, and its mostly the hay when doing barn chores... i could wear my mask but ugh 01:04 < sheena1> i got capsules.. citrate.. righ? 01:04 < fenn> right 01:05 < sheena1> ok. 500 mg is the final dose you're taking? 01:05 < fenn> i don't really measure, probably more 01:06 < sheena1> okie 01:06 < sheena1> side effects? 01:06 < fenn> an easy, relaxed feeling 01:06 < fenn> can cause diarrhea if taking too much 01:06 < sheena1> same as vitc etc then 01:07 < fenn> yep ideally we'd just take magnesium ascorbate but it's harder to get 01:07 < sheena1> :) 01:18 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: streety 01:25 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:29 -!- Netsplit over, joins: streety 01:35 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:51 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08 -!- joshcryer [~g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:11 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:12 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:12 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has quit [Changing host] 02:12 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:25 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: streety 02:36 -!- Netsplit over, joins: streety 02:49 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:17 < fenn> this is a curious device. as someone who runs out of ram constantly, it's worth a shot http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Super-Talent-Ram-Disk-RamDisk,23173.html http://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Talent-32GB-Express-Ram-Disk-USB-3-0-Flash-Drive-TLC-/190918854844 03:18 < fenn> i wonder what happens during sleep/suspend mode 03:22 < fenn> the numbers don't match up 125MB/s read 42MB/s write is nowhere near "4041 MB/s read and 5388 MB/s write" 03:22 < fenn> it doesn't really matter with USB 2.0 03:30 < fenn> aw man it looks like it just installs some crap software to pretend like there's a disk http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/5891/super-talent-dram-disk-16gb-usb-3-0-flash-drive-review/index.html 03:30 < fenn> i just want a USB external DRAM bay 03:30 < fenn> why is that so hard 03:37 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:38 < fenn> maybe ram disks are obsolete now with faster flash drives 03:54 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: streety 04:04 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:06 -!- Netsplit over, joins: streety 04:07 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:17 -!- joshcryer [~g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has quit [] 04:22 -!- abetusk [~abe@208.184.72.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:29 < pasky> fenn: because USB is on a completely different level than DRAM in PC architecture; you need to be able to access RAM directly from the CPU, not based on exchanging pretty-please messages with USB controller 04:29 < pasky> fenn: you will just have to swap somewhere 04:30 < pasky> fenn: aside of storage devices, an interesting option is swapping into your GPU's memory (unless you have shared CPU/GPU memory in your notebook) 04:31 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:33 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:39 -!- raonyguimaraes [~raony@187.20.225.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:53 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:02 < fenn> it's shared 05:02 < fenn> i realize USB and RAM are totally separate; i was thinking of it from a swap perspective from the beginning 05:03 < fenn> however, "fast" flash drives are only in the 10-50MB/s continuous write range, with random read/write being much slower 05:03 < fenn> a USB RAM bay (just a bunch of ram in a box with a USB transciever) would not have this problem 05:05 < fenn> especially if there were a tiny bit of glue software to queue up read requests so as not to make lots of tiny USB packets 05:07 < fenn> there are so many cheap ARM mini PC's with 2GB of RAM and tons of USB ports 05:07 < fenn> they just need a little help 05:22 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:22 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:24 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:28 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@36.90-149-182.nextgentel.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:34 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:40 < kanzure> so in the elastomeric thin film thing it has an array of wires sticking out? 05:44 < fenn> i don't know what you're talking about 05:44 < kanzure> 23:26 < fenn> the circuitry used to drive an electroluminescent display is somewhat similar to driving an array of PZT transducers 05:44 < kanzure> 23:26 < fenn> lots of little high voltage AC wires 05:45 < fenn> ok i was just musing on how they are similar technologies 05:45 < fenn> probably both perovskite crystals too 05:47 < fenn> the EL display has indium tin oxide front conductors and "light absorbent row electrodes" whatever that means, presumably copper oxide coated copper 05:49 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/fennetic.net:~/irc/lumineq_electroluminescent_display_cross_section.png 05:49 < fenn> derp 05:49 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/lumineq_electroluminescent_display_cross_section.png 05:52 < kanzure> http://bgr.com/2014/05/09/fcc-net-neutrality-controversy/ 05:52 < kanzure> "The Federal Communications Commission would rather read your thoughts about net neutrality than hear about them. Columbia Law School professor and leading net neutrality activist Tim Wu points out that calling the FCC’s main consumer hotline will give you a message that asks you to write an email to the commission if you’re calling about FCC chairman Tom Wheeler’s controversial net neutrality plans." 05:52 < kanzure> in other words.. their pipes aren't able to handle the load. aww. 05:52 < fenn> does that mean you should call them or email them? 05:53 < fenn> oh i know, we can pay them "preferred carrier status" so we can call them 05:53 < kanzure> afaik emails to any government agency aren't supposed to work, unless it's the type where you end up paying for a service (like FOIA requests) 05:53 < fenn> postcards it is then 05:54 < kanzure> yes preferred carrier was the phrase i was looking for thanks 05:54 < fenn> i just made that up 05:55 < kanzure> i am pretty sure the fcc deals with preferred carriers. googling shows that they have regulation of such. 05:56 < kanzure> hah coindesk apparently allows straight up infomercials http://www.coindesk.com/network-analysts-view-block-chain/ 05:57 < kanzure> (the author is pimping his company) 05:57 < fenn> i think i'm going to use this as my swap drive: http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Extreme-Flash-Drive-SDCZ80-016G-X46/dp/B007YXA5S8/ 05:58 < fenn> it has really good 4k write speed 05:58 < fenn> someone took it apart and there's a SATA hard disk controller inside 06:05 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:10 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:11 -!- Adifex [Adifex@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fe6e:f4e8] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:24 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:25 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:33 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:54 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:57 < FourFire> fenn does it have enough endurance? 07:01 -!- abetusk [~abe@208.184.72.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:09 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:51 -!- raonyguimaraes [~raony@187.20.225.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:54 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:15 < kanzure> fenn: i think any reform of the fda would have to come with reform of the patent office too 08:15 < kanzure> maybe jojack knows someone who has put together a reasonable proposal that has a chance of actually working 08:15 < kanzure> ("delete both organizations" isn't likely to happen) 08:18 < kanzure> http://patents.justia.com/examiner/rochelle-ann-j-blackman 08:19 < kanzure> .title 08:19 < yoleaux> Patents by Examiner Rochelle Ann J Blackman 08:27 -!- escapier [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:28 < escapier> Hi are there other transhumanist chanels outthere, some better/more important/active? 08:28 < kanzure> this is the largest and most active, see evidence here: http://gnusha.org/logs/ 08:29 < kanzure> lee smolin Spin networks Ltd, 158 Crawford St, Toronto, ON M6J 2V4 Canada 08:29 < escapier> I am interested in IRC chanels not something else. 08:30 < kanzure> my link is irc channel logs, learn to read 08:31 < escapier> i read it, but i just said you that your answer does not fir my questions. 08:31 < escapier> *fit 08:31 < kanzure> there are none that are better, more important or more active 08:31 < kanzure> most of them are dead 08:31 < kanzure> so basically none 08:32 < escapier> It isok. Is there any campain against Transhumanism, it seems so to me. 08:32 < kanzure> but here's some historical archives that you can compare against: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/extropians/irclogs/ 08:33 < catern> escapier: yes, the illuminati wants to prevent tranhumanist ideas from reaching the masses. we are the only enlightened ones who see the truth left 08:33 < kanzure> in particular extropy.log transinst.log immortal.log vpsummit.log immortal2.log wta.log sl4.log 08:34 < kanzure> catern: cute, but i think you can do better 08:35 < catern> yeah, i just tried to get something out quickly 08:35 < escapier> Ok i stay serious, there are a lots of negative conspirancy theories on youtube in the last mounth and all intersting discussions are far behind them, also on google there are no real boards for transhuman thoughts, just negativ comentars. 08:35 < kanzure> escapier: why does any of that matter? "if you watch enough youtube videos, you'll live forever" 08:42 -!- escapier [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:47 -!- escapist [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:48 < escapist> rejoin 08:49 < kanzure> "Optical lenses cannot distinguish between electric and magnetic photon rays." 08:49 < escapist> i download all logs right now 08:49 -!- raonyguimaraes [~raony@187.20.225.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:51 < escapist> kanzure: do you know transhuman/biohcking online communities they are worth to join an free not like http://humanityplus.org/get-involved-2/join/join-hplus/ 08:53 < escapist> does somebody else know any? 08:54 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:55 < kanzure> escapist: humanityplus.org isn't really worth anyone's time. they don't do anything. 08:56 < kanzure> escapist: i recommend not joining groups 08:56 < escapist> why? 08:58 < escapist> kanzure: is there an particualer reason whynot? 08:59 < kanzure> why would you want to join a group that doesn't do anything? 09:01 < escapist> um-- let think 09:03 < kanzure> trick question 09:04 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:05 < escapist> 1. I am not a expert (yet), so it would great if i have someone i could ask, why not irc? - I thinks its more comfortable in a group 2. I need friends ;-) 3. I am not the (proto)type of guy doing anything alone in a laboritory 3. Iam in interested in poeple, i wANT TO DISCUSS with them, try to solve problems together 4. Working in groups incease the dopamin, specialy when you done something good and other notice this. 09:07 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:08 < escapist> Why not irc, no real trust possible in irc, -> no real cooperation. There are are so far away, no real identification possible. kanzure does these selfish reasons make sense to you? 09:08 < kanzure> why is "real identification" important? i don't understand 09:08 < kanzure> no, none of this makes sense to me 09:08 < kanzure> do you really care who i am as long as my tools work? that's racist holmes :) 09:09 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_photon "There is no experimental evidence for the existence of this particle, and several versions [1] have been ruled out by negative experiments.[2]" well then wtf is this? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/physics/Possible%20observation%20of%20a%20second%20kind%20of%20light%20-%20magnetic%20photon%20rays.pdf 09:09 < kanzure> nsh: poke, see last message 09:13 < escapist> Racism, is when you do not value someone, because his dna has some othere molecules then mine and i see a danger for my childreen from this kind of human. What i talk about is total opposite, i want to value poeple and want that people value me, because we are different, because we know each other, because i ear and give trust by/to someone. The main imporvement of have poeple around they can really help you up when you in a 09:13 < kanzure> okay, well that sounds really boring and stuff, let me know when you want to work on transhumanist projects 09:14 < escapist> when you have poeple around you they help you as well you would help them , when you never expiered some situation youve missed something big. 09:15 < kanzure> i assure you that being in the humanityplus.org group does not advance any transhumanist goals whatsoever 09:15 < escapist> Ähmm. in future, ofcourse, nor in past nor in present ... 09:15 < kanzure> i should note that i was employed by them at one point 09:15 < kanzure> so i have actual, you know, evidence and experience that you're totally welcome to ignore 09:16 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:16 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:17 < escapist> thats is why i asking you for communities, just as kick start , that i do not have to annoy the same humans all the time .. 09:17 < escapist> thats why i am asking you, when do you have better ideas i shut up and listen# 09:18 < kanzure> huh? i don't understand at all. what's wrong with just doing projects in this irc channel? 09:19 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects has an old list of things that were being kicked around 09:19 < kanzure> (from this channel) 09:21 < escapist> I have nothing really against the medium irc itself. but do you have the time to explain a nearly newcomer, everything he need to know, that would be awesome, but i guess not. So a more closed group than a irc, could train/teach/explain me everything much better then any irc could, because these people i spend time with, know me and know what i know... 09:22 < escapist> kanzure , do you see good points in a more famliar group, for beginners like me? 09:23 < kanzure> so you think that an irc channel can't teach you anything because...? 09:23 < kanzure> maybe i am unfamiliar to you because you have only met me 10 minutes ago 09:24 < kanzure> which seems fairly normal 09:25 < escapist> i do not tell that he cannot teach me anything, but people they know at least a bit, can better teach me thats because 09:26 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: streety 09:26 < escapist> they know my strenghts and my weaknesses so they could focus on what i need 09:26 < catern> standard debating XML 09:27 < escapist> he does not seemed to get my point... so its my fault and i need to improve the clearness of my thoughts 09:28 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:28 < escapist> catern do you understand what i want to say? 09:29 < dingo> now dont bring xml into this 09:29 < dingo> thats a straw man 09:29 < kanzure> it's okay to just say "i don't like irc" 09:31 < escapist> I like irc ( see above), otherwise i wouldnot be hear. Every task needs a tool and i think specally for newbies they need to get in to the materia, a open communtity with fast changing members is not the best tool. 09:33 < kanzure> can you describe the nature of the closed community you want, and why you think it would be more effective at transhumanist projects? 09:35 < escapist> Andno real rules, newbies often wnat something like a red threat they can catch when they fall or get lost, but irc just do not provide that. Thats why i think, @ the actual moment of my infos and knowledge a more closed, more ruled is better for beginners. Answer to your questioni do not think there is one right tool, thats ideal for everybody, there different tools for different situation. Irc good for andvanced oes, i to 09:36 < dingo> i to also 09:36 < dingo> glad we agree 09:37 < escapist> they start to get in the materia it is not ideal as mentioned above. So to your question using a forum and irc for example would fit both needs and optimize the security, privacy problems of an irc 09:38 -!- Netsplit over, joins: streety 09:38 < kanzure> how did this turn into forum vs irc?? weren't you talking about something else first 09:39 < escapist> in a forum there are rules, in class also not the speed of the information the childreen get is important, but that they understand the links between, in research the speed is much more important because anyone understand the basics 09:40 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43 < kanzure> are you suggesting this irc channel doesn't have rules? 09:43 < kanzure> i am not trying to be difficult, but your line of reasoning is very difficult to follow 09:43 < escapist> this no forum vs irc, thats a pro-forum-and-irc i talked about a group that help me get the basic knowledge. 09:45 < kanzure> irc can help you get basic knowledge if necessary 09:45 < kanzure> what do you want to know? 09:47 < escapist> I am pro-irc-and-forum. Why do we need a forum? In my opinion a forum is better for educating the newcomers, f.E: you can link to solved problems, toturials and do need to summurize for everyone everytie someone asks. Why not jsut forum: Because for advanced prefer irc. Answer to your question follows: 09:48 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:49 < escapist> 1. How i start? 2. What i need? 3. Are there any easy exper. to start? 4.REQUEST Long list books i should read 5. Required basic knowledge? 09:51 < escapist> Thats what i want to know, when you a forum, people can found the information by themself f.E: from a thread literatur need to readedto understand the basics. but it also allows questions and comments not like toturial website 09:52 < kanzure> why couldn't they just look at links given to them over irc? 09:52 < kanzure> also, here's the channel's wiki: http://diyhpl.us/wiki 09:52 < kanzure> you can read the books here: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ 09:53 < kanzure> here's some do-it-yourself biohacking frequently asked questions: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq 09:53 < kanzure> a list of areas of knowledge to look into is also written here http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration 09:53 < kanzure> since i have given you these links without the use of a forum, does that invalidate your assertion by any chance? 09:54 < escapist> i ve already downloaded them ... 09:58 < escapist> i give you point, but just small one, do you want to that for Example poeple per day? - I assume no. When i would have a special questions about ribbosons, you can tell me X is expert for that. That means i have to wait till X is on and maybe just get redirected. In a Forum anybody that knows the topic can just ggive me the neede information, much easier much faster, back to one of your question:"How does this help the trans 09:59 < escapist> example 5 or 15 10:00 < kanzure> if you look more closely, you will see that the wiki has content 10:01 < kanzure> by the way, your message is getting clipped at the ends, see http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-05-10.log to see the cutoffs 10:01 < kanzure> fenn: this is an okay article, http://nige.wordpress.com/2010/08/14/freeman-dyson-on-richard-feynmans-path-integral-quantum-field-theory/ 10:03 < escapist> You are right, you can explain everything to someone in a irc, but a forum as starting point, offers more possiblity, special the recruts, than a wiki, click my self though endless list sites, does not really increase the motivation to make the world a better place, does it? @ .log yes of course you can do that of courxe you can search in chat logs for the answer of your problems, i love i can do it al day 10:04 < kanzure> no, i am not telling you to search the logs, i am telling you that your messages are experiencing cutoff -_- learn to read 10:05 < kanzure> also i find your theory that forums are better than wikis for content to be highly suspicious 10:06 < kanzure> i also find "motivation to make the world a better place" highly suspcious too-- do you know what transhumanism is? 10:08 < escapist> tell, oh grand all knowing Übermensch , tell me - ofcourse i get a bit rhetoric when i talk about it. But just telling me that i should formulate i better does improvve nithing, does it? 10:08 < escapist> tell me what i ve done wrong so i can improve. 10:09 < kanzure> you're calling me an ubmernsch because i have called you out on a silly opinion? 10:11 < kanzure> most of the time i see the "forums are better than mailing lists" opinion, but "forums are better than wikis" is quite a new take on that traditional argument 10:11 < kanzure> is there anything a forum can't do, golly geewhiz 10:12 < escapist> do you mean this real? Do i real have to answer? Tell me what i could improve that you understand me better. Can we both stop using rhetoric that much? It make it more simple 10:12 < kanzure> i am not using rhetoric. i honestly believe that there is content on this wiki http://diyhpl.us/wiki that you should read. this is why i gave you the links. this is not because of rhetoric. 10:16 < escapist> In a forum you can basicily do anything, also i blog or a irc, you can make a wiki in irc, of course and you can answer questions in a forum as well. The question is how good,but can we leave this discussion. There are thinks forums are good for and there are less good for can we agree on that?Thank forrecomdenig the wiki i just downloading all 1600++ pdfs at the moment. Downloaded all sites i met. 10:18 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:19 < escapist> kanzure : thanks for helping me. 10:19 < escapist> Where would you recomend me to start with? 10:19 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ 10:21 < kanzure> hahahaha: "Not true, you will always want to hide some things from some people and not from others. For example, I produce a chemical product which i sell to company a, company b would love to know how much i charge to company a but i don't want them to know. The industry regulators want to see all my transactions for national security purposes. Bitcoin can deliver in this scenario way more effectively than any native currency via BIP32 ... 10:21 < kanzure> ... address systems. I can transact in private on the blockchain and provide my master public key to any authority that wants to audit me. That is amazing." 10:21 < kanzure> "The industry regulators want to see all my transactions for national security purposes." riiight 10:22 < escapist> Ok, that are 1600 books, do oyu understand that this answer is frustrating. 10:23 < kanzure> yeah, doing things is "hard" 10:23 < kanzure> it's unfortunate, but you can't give up on doing things 10:24 < kanzure> also the wiki is much less content than 1600 books at the moment 10:26 -!- escapist [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:27 < kanzure> haha 10:27 < kanzure> "If we can just write enough epic emails or forum posts at each other, we'll live forever!" 10:28 -!- escapistr [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:29 < FourFire> kanzure, IKR 10:30 < FourFire> it's annoying because I feel like it's my duty to instruct people that they're going to actually have to Make that shit Happen if they want to actually enjoy the benefits 10:30 < kanzure> it's annoying because duty? 10:31 < FourFire> I am lazy 10:31 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:31 < delinquentme> TIL "technical gelatin" ... almost sounds like it could be used as growth medium 10:34 -!- escapistr [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:35 -!- escapist [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:35 -!- Burnin8 is now known as Burninate 10:36 < escapist> i agree that it is anoying to explain anything 10:37 < kanzure> it's not annoying to explain things, it's annoying that they are wrong 10:38 < escapist> i also know that and i am every time a little embrassed when i need to ask strangers, for a way the basic informations. Ok, explain :-) 10:38 < escapist> i am irritated what do you mean with them are wrong? 10:38 < escapist> *they 10:39 < FourFire> it's annoying having to explain the same thing over and over 10:39 < escapist> can e 10:40 < escapist> i agree, but as long there is no guide, no red threat,i can follow i need to ask others asked 100 times before the same question. 10:40 < escapist> itsis really embrassing i know that, i am also a expert for many things compared to my age. 10:41 < kanzure> nobody cares about your age here 10:42 < escapist> Thats one thing i love about the irc's 10:44 < escapist> But it is hard to start reading 1600 articles and books about something you do not even no all basics, and i think i do not know all. It is like you want teach programming to someone that can not sum or divide nor know the basic logic statments. 10:44 < escapist> You agree? 10:45 < kanzure> no 10:46 < kanzure> i believe you can teach programming to someone who does not know division or addition 10:46 < kanzure> turtle programming showed this, i believe. or possibly earlier versions. 10:47 < escapist> Ok, that was just an example, you can not teach poetry when the other can not even write or read. 10:47 < escapist> Agree on that? 10:47 -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:47 < kanzure> no, because for centuries there were poets that could not read or write- they would recite oral histories 10:48 < escapist> ok, you a smart, i give up, but i thin you understand the core of my sentence. 10:48 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:48 < kanzure> i am not smart, sigh 10:48 < kanzure> i just think you're wrong 10:49 < escapist> Do you think it is wrong to learn the basics before creating life? 10:49 < kanzure> it is neither right nor wrong- many births occur before anyone learns "the basics" 10:50 < escapist> Do you want to teach me transhumanism/biohacking? 10:50 < kanzure> i fucking gave you links dude 10:50 < kanzure> i have no idea why you would ask that question after receiving said links 10:52 < escapist> Ok, break it down i need to read 1600 books of highly speciased reasearch to talk with you again? 10:53 < escapist> These scene will break down, no newcomers. 10:56 < kanzure> i didn't say you're not allowed to talk to me, i said you should read the wiki, and you should 10:56 < kanzure> look, even if it was a forum, you would still have to read the fucking content 10:57 -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:57 < escapist> I agree, i realize that i do not want a forum. 10:58 -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:59 < FourFire> escapist, a lot of the nessecary information which you need to get from people is the terms for concepts, which you can then learn about on your own, also the relations between these concepts and how they are interconnected or interdependent 11:01 < escapist> ok, i aamjustoverwhelmed by the 1600 books, FourFire can you give a short list "What to do and then ask again"? 11:02 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:02 < FourFire> such a list is dynamic and dependent on your current knowledge (of which I can't possibly know) and what you need to know in order to accomplish your goal 11:03 < FourFire> escapist, what is your question? 11:03 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@36.90-149-182.nextgentel.com] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] 11:04 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:04 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@36.90-149-182.nextgentel.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:05 < escapist> My question where should i start. You are right that you can not know what i can do or can not, but i know which parts i can skip. so giving a recomend listof thinks to read(around 20 books) maybe i know where to start 11:05 < kanzure> why is "read the wiki" not an appropriate answer? 11:05 < FourFire> ok reading the backlog, escapist I think you should begin to read the wiki entries which kanzure liked you 11:05 < kanzure> it's less than 20 fucking pages. screw you. 11:05 < FourFire> linked* 11:06 < FourFire> read them, and when those lead you to further things, read those further things, if there's some complex concept you don't understand, google/wikipedia it first, and if you can't figure it out, ask in here 11:07 < FourFire> escapist, if you are overwhelemed by 1600 books, then don't see it as 1600 books, see it as first 16 books, and afterwards 16 more books 11:07 < FourFire> and so on 11:10 < escapist> faq done, i do not ger te structure of the wiki, it confusing. The wiki has no real starting point. There something called optimization in informatic. It means you readuce the run time of your algorythm to get the needed result. You say i should start with the first 16 books. In which order? Because starting with a is maybe not the best idea because in worst case all information i needed was in book started with zy and so i 11:10 < FourFire> escapist Er du Svenska? 11:11 < kanzure> the wiki's starting point is the front page, just like any other stupid website 11:11 < kanzure> argh how many times do i have to tell you about cutoff. check the logs: http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-05-10.log 11:14 < escapist> in the wiki, lots of sub-sub-sub categoriers. They do not interest me as a starter. The starting page offers me a structure of the wiki, but where i start in the wiki at a-a-a-a it is not the efficient way of doing things @log i downloaded 250 mb of them. 11:15 < kanzure> that's not why i mentioned the logs 11:15 < kanzure> i mentioned the logs because of cutoff in your messages 11:15 < kanzure> so that you can see what the cutoff looks like 11:15 < kanzure> go look 11:17 < kanzure> escapist: since you hate everything i have suggested so far, can you propose a better sequence of tools and instructions than already provided through the biohacking faq and the other content on the wiki? 11:18 < cluckj> a specific question about a particular topic might help, too 11:22 < escapist> I am just overwhelmed by it i not hate but that is not the point. I will propose a get:started in the wiki and a jargon file. How the get started should look like. Starting at the basics link to good explanation for example for Dna, how cells get energy and such basic stuff, than link to level:2 in which you explain thinks build on this build on these basics and then on level:3 the user has the choice which he i particular i 11:23 < kanzure> you still don't understand the concept of cutoff 11:23 < escapist> about the basic chemicals used dna splitting and what they do. ... Ok tell me the concept i am missing? 11:23 < kanzure> .d cutoff 11:23 < yoleaux> cut-off (): n. 1. A point or level which is a designated limit of something: 2,500 g is the standard ⁓ below which infants are categorized as ‘low birthweight’ — http://is.gd/g7KagI 11:24 < kanzure> look at the log and compare it to the message you sent: http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-05-10.log 11:24 < escapist> you mean i am missing some kind of information between resfreshes? 11:25 < kanzure> no 11:25 < FourFire> escapist, you should read the things which seemed relevant from reading the wiki 11:26 < kanzure> .g irc text truncation 11:26 < yoleaux> https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/4753 11:26 < kanzure> .t 11:26 < yoleaux> Sat, 10 May 2014 18:26:47 UTC 11:26 < kanzure> .title 11:26 < yoleaux> #4753 (IRC messages silently truncated to first ~500 characters) – Pidgin 11:27 < FourFire> escapist, Your messages are ending at 500 letters so we can only see some of what you are saying 11:27 < FourFire> from your end it looks like your messages are getting sent, but they aren't look at the logs to see where they cutoff 11:27 < escapist> ok, now i understand. 11:27 < delinquentme> http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nmeth.2938.html 11:27 < kanzure> .title 11:27 < yoleaux> Bone marrow–on–a–chip replicates hematopoietic niche physiology in vitro 11:27 < kanzure> why does it have to be a chip if it's in vitro 11:28 < FourFire> I think there's a page similar to a jargon file on the wiki 11:28 < delinquentme> idk, just cant explain it 11:28 < escapist> ok, where? 11:30 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=f48e23fe Bryan Bishop: also grab the reprap.org wiki >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/wikis/ 11:37 < escapist> I am going to make the collection of information i need now, wjen i understand the most and send it to you guys 11:40 < escapist> What format you think is the best a latex document? 11:42 < kanzure> you can add latex files to the wiki by following the instructions on the front page 11:43 < escapist> good idea? 11:44 < escapist> you mean oushing up via git? 11:46 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:47 < kanzure> you can edit the wiki over http or via git, i don't care 11:47 < escapist> i do not thik this wise, because i am not a native speaker and i do not belive in my english that much 11:47 < kanzure> then write in your native language 11:47 < kanzure> who cares 11:47 < escapist> ok, 11:47 < escapist> :-) 11:50 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:50 < escapist> Can tell me the most important subtopics of transhumanism in your opinion 11:50 < kanzure> can you explain how the links i provided did not do that 11:51 -!- Burnin8 [~Burn@pool-173-66-15-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:51 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration has an entire list about that... i think you haven't actually looked. 11:52 < escapist> what is nootropics? 11:52 < kanzure> .d nootropics 11:52 < yoleaux> nootropic (/ˌnəʊəˈtrəʊpɪk, -ˈtrɒpɪk/): adj. (Of a drug) used to enhance memory or other cognitive functions; n. A nootropic drug — http://is.gd/P6SXAq 11:52 < kanzure> .ety nootropic 11:52 < yoleaux> Sorry, I couldn't find the etymology of that. 11:54 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:54 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-173-66-15-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:56 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: streety 12:04 -!- escapist [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:07 -!- Netsplit over, joins: streety 12:21 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: streety 12:32 -!- Netsplit over, joins: streety 12:37 -!- Guest79571 [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:37 -!- Guest79571 [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:43 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: streety 12:44 -!- sheena1 [~home@67.201.165.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:44 -!- sheena [~home@67.201.165.63] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:54 -!- Netsplit over, joins: streety 13:06 -!- pyotra [~asakharov@24.60.79.55] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:10 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: streety 13:26 -!- Netsplit over, joins: streety 13:27 -!- Burnin8 is now known as Burninate 13:32 -!- apex [~tpi@c-107-4-148-59.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:33 -!- nmz787 [~nmz787@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:34 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:36 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:37 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:41 -!- nmz787 [~nmz787@131.252.130.248] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:43 -!- nmz787 [~nmz787@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:08 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -] 14:19 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:50 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:54 < kanzure> fenn: i forget if you complained about https://github.com/jazzido/tabula yet 14:55 < kanzure> http://www.tagspaces.org/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7726359 shitty gui for tagging files 14:55 < kanzure> "Very nice, but a stopper for me is that if you have a pdf with the name "foobar.pdf" on your disk and tag it with TagSpaces with the tags Sciences, Thermodynamics you end up with a file "foobar[Sciences Thermodynamics].pdf". The tags are directly encoded into the file names." 15:01 < kanzure> http://www.raphkoster.com/2014/05/07/the-financial-future-of-game-developers/ 15:02 < kanzure> wait, no, nevermind 15:02 < kanzure> i take it back 15:23 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@78.174.10.112] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:23 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@78.174.10.112] has quit [Changing host] 15:23 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:34 -!- kardan [~kardan@199.254.238.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:40 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:41 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:04 < catern> kanzure: why would he complain about tabula, looks handyt 16:04 < kanzure> iirc there's something they are lying about in their marketing materials 16:04 < kanzure> i just forget whta 16:04 < kanzure> *what 16:06 < kanzure> http://reprap.org/wiki/Metal_deposition_print_head 16:08 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:09 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=5462af1d Bryan Bishop: homecmos/semiconductor stuff >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/homecmos/wet-etch-recipes/ 16:12 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:12 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has quit [Changing host] 16:12 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:12 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:13 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:14 < kanzure> oh man, 2007? http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=387459&cid=21680045 16:14 < kanzure> QuantumG: how the hell long have we known each other 16:20 < ebowden> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-007-5539-0_9# 16:33 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-173-66-15-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-173-66-15-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:36 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:38 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:46 < QuantumG> kanzure: for, like, ever 16:47 < QuantumG> 2007 I believe 16:47 < QuantumG> "Hey there. I was going to reply to your post via Slashdot, but decided 16:47 < QuantumG> a private response may be better." 16:47 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:48 < kanzure> okie dokie 16:54 < kanzure> "It's actually worse than that. I did my PhD in a lab that did brain computer interfaces as part of the same DARPA initiative. We were supposed to use the DEKA arm but they insisted on owning all IP to come out of the research, even if it had nothing to do with robotics. Obviously that didn't happen. DEKA is basically Intellectual Ventures with better PR." 16:59 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:22 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:55 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-198-71-179.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:56 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-81-213-124.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:00 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:05 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:19 < fenn> i hear you can't even buy the iBot anymore? unless it's for non-medical purposes. what's up with that 18:19 < fenn> FDA-- 18:23 < fenn> Huey 091 Foundation is working to restart the manufacture of the iBOT Mobility System, one of the most advanced mobility devices yet developed. 18:23 < fenn> Our goal is to employ a workforce of military veterans to build, distribute and maintain new iBOTS. 18:23 < kanzure> ooh, yeah i wonder if veterans can beat the fda 18:23 < kanzure> too bad they're all dead from their lack of medical benefits 18:23 < fenn> lol the home front hasn't been going so well so far 18:24 < kanzure> fucked either way to tuesday 18:25 < fenn> i'd like to get some veterans, put em to work 18:25 < fenn> the more bitter the better 18:26 < fenn> you see i'm a gourmet 18:26 < fenn> .d gourmand 18:26 < yoleaux> gourmand (/ˈgʊəmənd, ˈgɔː-/): n. A person who enjoys eating and often eats too much — http://is.gd/pV9cs7 18:27 < kanzure> "veterans against the fda", who could object 18:27 < fenn> the people who are currently screwing them? 18:27 < kanzure> "adorable little girls with cancer against the fda"? 18:27 < fenn> oh, cancer kids get whatever they want 18:28 < kanzure> spoiled brats 18:28 < fenn> "make a wish foundation - all medicine is now free, you're welcome" 18:28 < kanzure> "my wish is for the fda to stop fucking me over" 18:28 < fenn> i wonder how shielded the cancer kids are from all the administrative bullshit 18:29 < kanzure> better than parading around as batman for a day, do some real hero work kid 18:29 < fenn> yeah save SF from evil Genentech :P 18:30 < fenn> why is it we have the segway, an essentially useless technology, but not the ibot, a huge glaring gap in capability 18:32 < kanzure> why do hot dogs come in packages of 12, but buns in packages of 8? 18:32 < kanzure> when you can answer my question, i will answer yours 18:33 < fenn> "Because of certain FDA certifications / ratings relating to safety, we cannot sell or distribute the iBOT unless you have a prescription and undergo user training.  We really wish we could sell them to roboticists, but unfortunately, that would result in loosing the very costly certification." the truth is exposed! roboticists are to blame, obviously 18:33 < kanzure> a prescription? really? 18:34 < kanzure> all that egalitarian transhumanist bullshit should have been directed at that fucking racket, not at me 18:34 < fenn> kanzure: because hot dogs are foot long and buns are 8 inches, the lineal quantities match 18:34 < kanzure> fucking james hughes 18:34 < kanzure> i lied i just wanted a hot dog 18:34 < fenn> james hughes what 18:34 < kanzure> the fucking "everyone who doesn't believe in democratic transhumanist egaltarianism bullshit is a hyperterrorist" wta person 18:35 < kanzure> ieet? 18:35 < fenn> oh like 'bomb the brown people with love' sort of stuff 18:35 < kanzure> "Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies" 18:35 < kanzure> http://ieet.org/index.php/ieet/bio/hughes 18:35 < fenn> yeah i've read some of their stuff 18:35 < fenn> it can be interesting 18:35 < kanzure> well, they should be arguing against prescriptions, not against me 18:36 < fenn> why are they arguing against you? i'm confused 18:36 < kanzure> because i had a dissenting opinion ("instead of making fake magazines and terrible conferences, what if we built hardware that did things?") 18:36 < fenn> is it just a "so vicious because the stakes are so low" situation? 18:36 < kanzure> oh definitely 18:37 < fenn> "What will jail terms be like when humans can live for centuries?"  simple, they'll be the same as they always were, but you'll be denied the "medically unnecessary" life extension treatments because death is not defined as a disease by the government 18:38 < kanzure> they are also some of the "but what about the gap between rich/poor" morons 18:38 < kanzure> your rich/poor gap doesn't matter if you can't get them cheap equipment anyway 18:39 < fenn> why aren't there any vigilante international organizations of dudes with tanks 18:39 < kanzure> they are called pirates and they live in the ocean 18:39 < kanzure> they use something called the sea-tank 18:39 < fenn> pirates are just poor somalians apparently 18:40 < kanzure> are there machine shops on us navy carrier vessels? 18:40 < kanzure> and are they stable 18:40 < fenn> yes, lots of them 18:40 < fenn> i dunno what you mean stable, an aircraft carrier has a pretty low natural frequency 18:40 < kanzure> uh how low? 18:40 < fenn> i have no idea. 0.01 hertz how's that 18:40 < kanzure> huh. 18:41 < fenn> .wa natural frequency of an aircraft carrier 18:41 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result! 18:41 < fenn> .wa length of an aircraft carrier? 18:41 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result! 18:41 < fenn> useless! 18:41 < fenn> do they even look at the failed queries 18:42 < kanzure> .wa wolfram alpha query failure rate 18:42 < yoleaux> kanzure: Sorry, no result! 18:42 < kanzure> .wa calibrate 18:42 < fenn> .wa what can you do 18:42 < yoleaux> How can you help me?: Response: I can help you to compute. 18:42 < yoleaux> Kalibrate Technologies (KLBT): Recent returns: day: month: YTD: year: 5 year; -0.84%: -8.49%: +2.6%: | 18:44 < fenn> whatever happened with mike treder? 18:44 < kanzure> last mentioned 2012-03-18 by tim schmidt 18:45 < fenn> Detroit police: Missing New York man crossed into Canada ... 18:46 < kanzure> abducted by secret transhumanist organization known as hplusroadmap 18:46 < fenn> lol 18:46 < fenn> our detroit international time travel smuggling operation 18:48 < kanzure> it's a new department. 18:50 < fenn> oh i see what actually happened now, it's all explained on his blog: http://miketreder.blogspot.com/ 18:52 < kanzure> makes sense to me 18:56 < fenn> lol "atlas shrugged" no wonder amtrak failed, we don't have reardon metal because the center for responsible nanotechnology is understaffed 18:57 < kanzure> or because they are too busy writing ethics pamphlets 18:58 < fenn> you know using yoleaux from the command line is like 5 times faster than googling in a web browser 18:58 < fenn> i guess you could call the services directly from a python script 18:58 < kanzure> just because you can transfer ethics doesn't mean you can beat them into building shit 18:59 < kanzure> building things ins't like typing in a google query 18:59 < kanzure> ethics also isn't 18:59 < kanzure> i don't understand your analogy 18:59 < fenn> there was no analogy 18:59 < kanzure> oh good 18:59 < fenn> i was looking up names of characters from atlas shrugged 19:00 < kanzure> actually, how long does it take to write an ethics pamphlet anyway 19:00 < kanzure> what are they doing with the other 300 days of their cow-sphere-year 19:00 < fenn> how long is a piece of string 19:00 < kanzure> .wa length of 1 string 19:00 < yoleaux> kanzure: Sorry, no result! 19:00 < kanzure> you heard the man 19:01 < fenn> .wa 1/0 19:01 < yoleaux> 1/0: infinity^~ 19:01 < fenn> whaaat 19:01 < fenn> .wa freezing point of cat urine 19:01 < yoleaux> elements: melting point: domestic cat: daily urine production: elements: melting point: 940°C (degrees Celsius); domestic cat: daily urine production: (100 to 200) cm³/day (cubic centimeters per day); 19:01 < kanzure> why did feynman pick wolfram? 19:02 < fenn> i'm not sure what you're referring to 19:02 < kanzure> well, clearly "infinity^~" is what side of the debate wolfram falls on 19:02 < kanzure> and who is wolfram to say 19:02 < kanzure> and then i was wondering why feynman picked him 19:02 < kanzure> out of everyone else he had pestering him 19:02 < kanzure> like, why the fuck send this guy to space? 19:02 < fenn> is that like a snark mark? like "hey we know it's supposed to be undefined but we're going to say infinity ha ha" 19:03 < kanzure> most likely not 19:03 < fenn> .wa ^~ 19:03 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result! 19:03 < fenn> .wa ~ 19:03 < yoleaux> ~ (character): Visual form: http://is.gd/od1wG2; Name: tilde; Encodings: ASCII: 126 (hex: 7e: octal: 176: binary: 01111110); Unicode: U+007E (decimal: 126); HTML: ~; Computer keyboards containing "~": US English keyboard: United Kingdom keyboard: Chinese ChaJei keyboard: Japanese keyboard: Arabic (101) keyboard: Portuguese Brazilian abnt keyboard; Unicode classification: symbol > math 19:03 < kanzure> hmm where is the evidence that wolfram was going to be on apollo 17 19:04 < kanzure> wait, 17 is wrong 19:04 < fenn> wait what? wolfram in space? i have no idea what you're talking about, perhaps you inadvertently passed through a time portal 19:04 < kanzure> there was this whole thing 19:04 < kanzure> an entire whole thing where feynman was tutoring just one person 19:04 < kanzure> and it was wolfram 19:04 < kanzure> and something about the brightest scientist going to spaaaace 19:04 < kanzure> i swear this wasn't a fanfic 19:05 < kanzure> the guy brags about everything, this has to be somewhere 19:06 < fenn> i'd think even if it were a hoax/satire it would be findable 19:08 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.24.244] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:09 < fenn> the only physicists/mathematician astronauts i see are ronald macnair and story musgrave (much more cosmonauts probably) 19:09 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-48-162-236.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:10 < kanzure> well, i remember feynman's name being mentioned in the same blurb 19:10 < kanzure> and it was a cancelled mission 19:10 < eudoxia> on the subject of wolfram, here's some smug lisp-related bullshit http://www.ymeme.com/why-wolfram-%28mathematica%29-did-not-use-lisp.html 19:10 < fenn> young Wolfram wrote Feynman a rant letter talking about the surplus of "stupid fools" in the world who are dragging down his great genius, something surely Feynman could relate to. In a curt and unfriendly response Feynman diplomatically points out that Wolfram is an idiot who hates people. 19:11 < fenn> http://www.lettersofnote.com/2010/06/you-dont-understand-ordinary-people.html 19:11 < kanzure> nice :) 19:11 < kanzure> that is great 19:11 < eudoxia> feynman was such a bro, and a lisper too 19:12 < fenn> a "bro" 19:12 < fenn> why would you even say that 19:12 < kanzure> i'm not sure you have much recourse after being called a hateful idiot by feynman 19:12 < kanzure> what else is there in life after this 19:12 < fenn> "Find a way to do your research with as little contact with non-technical people as possible, with one exception, fall madly in love! That is my advice, my friend. 19:13 < kanzure> iirc feynman didn't exactly have sane views on relationsihps 19:13 < kanzure> but whatever 19:13 < fenn> what's a sane view on relationships 19:14 < kanzure> it's okay to know non-technical people 19:14 < fenn> it made sense in the context of the letter 19:14 < kanzure> well, ok 19:15 < kanzure> .title http://tech.mit.edu/V119/N10/col10lipman.10c.html 19:15 < yoleaux> Finding the Real Feynman 19:15 < kanzure> hah " His fellow physicist Murray Gell-Mann grumbled that he “spent a great deal of time and energy generating anecdotes about himself,”" 19:15 < kanzure> i bet that one's made up by him too 19:19 < QuantumG> does anyone you know say "legend" when they mean caption? 19:20 < kanzure> they sometimes mean "table next to a graph" 19:20 < fenn> a legend is not the same thing as a caption 19:20 < fenn> but they are both explanatory text for a graphic 19:20 < QuantumG> "When including a figure, do not forget to add a succinct legend mentioning exercise number, question number and type of plot." 19:21 < fenn> yeah that should be caption 19:21 < QuantumG> everyone's told her that "legend" is the wrong word, she continues to use the word incorrectly. 19:21 < FourFire> legend is like instructions on how to use a map 19:22 < kanzure> have you considered quitting 19:22 < QuantumG> nah 19:22 < fenn> a legend is metadata about the symbols in the graphic or descriptions of what the symbols mean 19:22 < kanzure> fenn: hm, so, maybe the first step is affirming whether or not feynman eventually took wolfram up 19:22 < kanzure> s/affirming/confirming 19:22 < fenn> a caption is metadata about the graphic itself, explaining what the graphic overall means 19:23 < eudoxia> fenn: that's usually called a reference (metadata about symbols...) 19:23 < eudoxia> the word legend is the default in the spanish versions of Microsoft Office when creating plots and shit 19:23 < kanzure> are you really using spanish microsoft office? 19:24 < eudoxia> haha no 19:24 < eudoxia> but i used it in the past 19:24 < eudoxia> when i was a kid 19:24 < eudoxia> who didn't know better 19:24 < eudoxia> also at school 19:24 < fenn> "an inscription motto or title placed on a shield or beneath an engraving or illustration." uh okay 19:24 < fenn> so if you want to call it a legend, you have to include the shield and heraldry 19:25 < QuantumG> heh 19:27 < fenn> "Legend" implies that its entries are generics, as with terrain types on a map, while "key" implies that its entries are specific, as with one symbol designating the Museum of Natural History, another the Metropolitan Museum of Art, etc. 19:28 < fenn> oh here we go 19:28 < fenn> etymology time 19:28 < fenn> A "Caption" used to be a box you put at the top of a map, hence the "Cap" part. The "Legend" is the explanatory information within a Caption that allows you to understand how to use the map, especially the Keys. It is a syllogistic synopsis, a short story if you will. The "Keys" are the symbols and numbers within the Caption that the Legend explains. 19:55 < kanzure> hmm so whaqt if the nasa/wolfram thing is fake 19:55 < kanzure> where did i get it from, then? 19:56 < eudoxia> sometimes you think you saw something on the internet and swear it up and down 19:56 < eudoxia> and then you can't find it and you're like "did i just make this up?" 19:57 < fenn> this is why i went with the time portal hypothesis 19:57 < kanzure> are you just repeating what i say back to me 19:58 < fenn> For a long time, Avdeyev held the record for time dilation experienced by a human being. n his 747 days aboard Mir, cumulative across three missions, he went approximately 27,360 km/h and thus aged roughly 0.02 seconds (20 milliseconds) less than an Earthbound person would have, which is considerably more than any other human being, except Sergei Krikalev. 19:58 < fenn> 20 milliseconds is more than i would have expected 19:58 < kanzure> yeah but what about computer internet radiation particles, surely those have some modifying effect 19:59 < fenn> normally quantum bogon flux from chronic suit exposure leads to the forgetting of history 20:00 < fenn> as demonstrated by the "quantum bogon bit erasure experiment" 20:00 < eudoxia> i wonder if the ability to google things in an instant is slowly destroying my memory 20:00 < kanzure> "We should also note Steward Brand's 1999 comment: the internet could “easily become the Legacy System from Hell that holds civilization hostage. The system doesn’t really work, it can’t be fixed, no one understands it, no one is in charge of it, it can’t be lived without, and it creates spontaneous time warps that fuck with all its users to create a twisted fucked up maze of human thought and history, and it gets worse every year.”" 20:00 < fenn> eudoxia: you and every tech writer trying to come up with an article by wednesday 20:00 < justanotheruser> If anyone has any criticisms of this pseudoFAQ I just made, let me know. bitcoin.it/wiki/altcoin 20:01 < kanzure> criticism 1: use urls 20:01 < justanotheruser> https://bitcoin.it/wiki/altcoin 20:01 < kanzure> auroracoin should be clarified to not be a government initiative 20:02 < justanotheruser> Sorry, I didn't add counterparty because I don't have a full understanding of it yet 20:02 < kanzure> counterparty is probably more like mastercoin than these 20:02 < kanzure> it's just OP_RETURN metadata stuff 20:02 < eudoxia> i don't really get it either but apparently i own 1% of kanzure or something 20:03 < kanzure> sure why not 20:03 < fenn> auroracoin: minted from the skin of crashed A-21 reconnaissance planes 20:04 < fenn> because where else can you find large quantites of a specific aged titanium alloy 20:05 < kanzure> justanotheruser: page looks okay, most of my battles these days are with people trying to apply blockchain to anything ("since it's popular, it must be a good idea in every situation!") 20:05 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@36.90-149-182.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:05 < kanzure> justanotheruser: i also think the "useful cryptocurrencies" section will end up being polarizing or subject of intense edit wars 20:05 < justanotheruser> kanzure: changed auroracoin. Also, I don't fully know how the client handles that metadata. It isn't just storing values. 20:06 < justanotheruser> kanzure: for the same reason I post my controversial opinions on other websites :) 20:06 < kanzure> counterparty runs a tiny client that just does json-rpc things against the local bitcoind server 20:06 < justanotheruser> kanzure: applying the block chain for bad reasons like what, voting? 20:07 < kanzure> today's example is "art": hashing a gif, and then trying to assert that this is DRM 20:07 < fenn> "SHA2 has had ASICs developed for it meaning there is a much smaller risk of centralization." should be "larger risk of centralization"? 20:07 < kanzure> and then putting the hash in the blockchain 20:07 < kanzure> and then claiming that it is smart property that knows its owner or some crap 20:07 < justanotheruser> fenn: no 20:07 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:07 < kanzure> smart property is also dumb; i can just strip the electronics from your "smart property" and then your blockchain data is lying 20:08 < justanotheruser> fenn: ASICs mean that it is much harder to optimize the algorithm to the point that it is easy to get 51% 20:08 < fenn> justanotheruser: are you trying to say that SHA2 is more easy to centralize or more difficult to centralize? 20:08 < justanotheruser> fenn: difficult 20:08 < kanzure> fenn: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf 20:09 < justanotheruser> Thanks kanzure was just about to link that 20:09 < kanzure> i take steroids to type faster 20:09 < justanotheruser> kanzure: you're right about the smart property, but there are legal incentives to not break in. It is like explaining the point of a deed 20:10 < kanzure> but why not just use a different database or some other solution 20:10 < justanotheruser> kanzure: because a central authority can't redesignate the property to someone else 20:10 < justanotheruser> But I guess the enforcers are a central authority... 20:11 < kanzure> property has centralized authority, PLUS other stuff like a physical presence that can be stolen, squatted, etc 20:11 < kanzure> cars can be carjacked 20:11 < kanzure> phones can be phonejacked 20:12 < QuantumG> perhaps the difference between ownership and possession is worth expounding. 20:12 < justanotheruser> kanzure: regarding art being hashed, why isn't it useful? It proves I made something and could be considered prior art if someone trays to patent my idea 20:12 < kanzure> there are certain guarantees that proof-of-work can provide, especially for electronically-origiating assets (like money, shares, bonds, etc.,), but non-electronically-originating assets.. i'm not so sure about yet. 20:12 < kanzure> technically the uspto does not actually respect prior art 20:12 < justanotheruser> Hmm 20:12 < eudoxia> nickcolor.pl is terrible 20:13 < justanotheruser> Ill remove it for now 20:13 < kanzure> timestamping a hash is an okay idea, but people have been proposing that forever (and i don't see why it should have anything to do with "DRM") 20:14 < kanzure> however, i'm willing to listen to proposals, i guess 20:14 < fenn> eudoxia: yeah it should color every letter differently :P 20:15 < justanotheruser> Well at the very least, it could be used to prove who plagerized who 20:15 < kanzure> first-to-file or first-to-invent 20:15 < kanzure> same problem 20:15 < fenn> justanotheruser: i think the confusion about alt hashing algorithms leading to more centralization/decentralization could be better explained in the article 20:16 < kanzure> read https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf 20:16 < justanotheruser> fenn: what isn't clear 20:16 < fenn> i'm saying i shouldn't have to read the pdf 20:16 < kanzure> the pdf is actually good :( 20:16 < justanotheruser> kanzure: he may understand, but the article may be confusing 20:16 < kanzure> is the wiki page supposed to replace the pdf? 20:16 < kanzure> the pdf is about asics, but your page was about altcoins 20:16 < fenn> "Changing the hashing algorithm is one of the most common and easiest changes you can make. This is why a majority of altcoins have a different hashing algorithm." this doesn't explain why the authors of altcoins have decided that changing the hashing algorithm was a good idea in the first place 20:17 < justanotheruser> kanzure: yeah, but if 2 or 3 sentences would make it more clear, I would prefer it be in the article 20:17 < fenn> it wasn't "to be easier to mine" it was "to make it harder to develop ASIC" from what i understand 20:17 < kanzure> andytoshi: ping, see fenn's comment 20:18 < fenn> ASIC is a rather centralized technology due to its dependency on multi-billion dollar circuit fabs 20:18 < fenn> (so is computers in general but meh) 20:18 < fenn> access to these fabs is not guaranteed by any means 20:19 < kanzure> grep fabs \#bitcoin-wizards.log 20:19 < fenn> i can easily see a future in which fabbing of bitcoin miner ASICs is illegal 20:19 * fenn reads the pdf now 20:20 < justanotheruser> fenn: would "Making mining 'easy' is done by making ASIC creation hard. If ASICs are hard to make, it will be profitable to CPU mine for much longer" be OK? 20:22 < justanotheruser> Or does that not lead one to the conclusion that ASIC-hardness/CPU-easyness leads to centralization 20:23 < fenn> maybe you should define what "centralization" means too 20:24 < justanotheruser> fenn: is " When a mining algorithm is difficult to make ASICs for, you risk a group creating ASICs and monopolizing the market" not good enough? 20:27 < fenn> so there's a difference between "leads to centralization" and "risk of leading to centralization" 20:28 < fenn> please be patient with me, my brain is not working right today 20:28 < justanotheruser> fenn: no, the article should be understandable to everyone, it is appreciatex 20:30 < justanotheruser> There is a risk of centralization, but I think I cover that they can avoid that centralization implicitly " If these cryptocurrencies do have a healthy number of companies producing ASICs and have avoided centralization, they still have algorithms that take longer to verify than SHA2 in use." 20:31 < fenn> maybe it should be organized like this: "Different hashing algorithm: alt coins have chosen different hashing algorithms. (list of algorithms and coins.) the hashing algorithm used for bitcoin is SHA2. discussion of strengths and weaknesses of SHA2. discussion of strengths and weaknesses of alt algorithms. comparison of sha2 and alt algorithms. 20:31 < fenn> then you can talk about asics and centralization and whether asic leads to centralization or decentralization] 20:32 < kanzure> at-home cmos fabrication, if it received a burst of bitcoin funding, might be able to produce simple enough instructions that non-billion-dollar foundries could be established by individuals who want to make not-quite-cutting-edge asics 20:32 < fenn> as it is, you're starting with the conclusion "asic leads to decentralization" and shitting all over alt currencies without explaining why exactly 20:32 < justanotheruser> fenn: in general, an alt algorithm is not good if it has the ASIC hurdle, so I grouped all non-sha2 algos together 20:32 < fenn> you need to explain why it's not good to make it hard to develop an asic 20:33 < kanzure> i suspect that the altcoin "we need to keep cpu mining as long as possible" reasoning might just be whatever someone came up with, instead of actually thinking through whether or not cpu-only mining is rational 20:33 < justanotheruser> fenn: so the paragraph directly under the list should go up? 20:33 < justanotheruser> kanzure: I suspect CPU mining is a good feature to advertise, so if will help their pump and dump 20:34 < fenn> what's to stop a government from just making 1 billion dollars worth of asics and blowing everyone out of the water? 20:34 < justanotheruser> fenn: only the fact that it would cost $1bn 20:34 < fenn> but there is already way more than $1b in existing computer hardware available to dedicate to bitcoin 20:34 < kanzure> and by the time the government is organized enough in that fashion, it will cost $100 billion by that time 20:35 < kanzure> there's not $1B of government sha256 hardware 20:35 < justanotheruser> fenn: no, a handful of ASICs would probably beat the worlds computing hardware 20:35 < kanzure> is there a chart or graph that compares the bitcoin hashrate against the other shitty supercomputers? 20:35 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-48-162-236.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:36 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-53-124-39.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:36 < fenn> sorry, "more than $1b in existing computer hardware available to dedicate to ALTcoin" 20:36 < justanotheruser> kanzure: Bitcoin network: 0flops/s. Fastest computers in the world:terraflops/s 20:36 < fenn> i'm not talking about supercomputers either 20:36 < justanotheruser> Tough to compare 20:36 < kanzure> justanotheruser: good point 20:37 < justanotheruser> fenn: I think so 20:37 < kanzure> justanotheruser: maybe by hypothetical number of transistors per network 20:37 < justanotheruser> kanzure: or joules 20:37 < fenn> we go back to proof of work. ASIC is a "hack" around the proof of work because there's not as much "work" 20:37 < justanotheruser> fenn: sure 20:37 < kanzure> i dunno about that 'hack' explanation 20:38 < kanzure> isn't it something more like: it's computing closer to the thermodynamic limit 20:38 < fenn> assuming the thermodynamic limit means anything 20:38 < justanotheruser> kanzure: yeah, andytoshis paper puts it better than I ever could 20:38 < kanzure> fenn: minimum energy requirement per computation 20:38 < justanotheruser> fenn: as the paper explains, entropy is the scarcest resource in the universe 20:40 * justanotheruser sighs 20:40 < kanzure> what's wrong? 20:40 < justanotheruser> I miss diablo or whatever your stalkers name is 20:40 < kanzure> dantespeaks? 20:40 < justanotheruser> Yes 20:40 < kanzure> hah 20:40 < kanzure> why? 20:41 < justanotheruser> What he said was funny 20:41 < kanzure> yes but unfortunately he was also a threatening stalker 20:41 < kanzure> so, you know, the universe balances out 20:41 < justanotheruser> Of course I'm not on the receiving end of the stalking 20:42 < justanotheruser> Oh, I didn't know he was threatening. 20:42 < kanzure> the dude thinks i can bring his mother back from the dead 20:42 < kanzure> and that i'm his ticket into the united states 20:42 < justanotheruser> I just thought things like him thinking he could convince you to give him hundreds of thousands of dollars 20:42 < justanotheruser> Were funny 20:42 * fenn looks around, sees lots of atoms flying around unpredictably 20:43 < justanotheruser> Maybe you could use science to cure his delusions 20:43 < fenn> i think you're talking about bit erasure generating heat in non-reversible computation, but i'm not sure 20:43 < kanzure> justanotheruser: well if you want more fodder, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/juls3.txt 20:44 < kanzure> 20:10 wow you treat me like some kind of criminal. 20:45 < justanotheruser> 580 messages vs 38 20:45 < eudoxia> kanzure: so do you have the part of the logs where he actually mentions the word 'mother' 20:45 < eudoxia> i went through ten pages of google search results on these logs and couldn't fine one 20:45 < kanzure> justanotheruser: he uses multiple user names 20:46 < kanzure> eudoxia: i suppose i could dig those up 20:46 < justanotheruser> Lol nvm, much worse ratio 20:46 < kanzure> eudoxia: (it was not in public) 20:46 < eudoxia> oh cool 20:48 * justanotheruser can't tell if he's purposely lying or actually believes himself 20:48 < kanzure> that's quite a series of lies to keep up 20:48 < fenn> "ASICs are good, because heat dissipation" what!! 20:48 < kanzure> the reason i keep recognizing him when he coms in here is because he slips up 20:48 < kanzure> *comes 20:48 < fenn> do you know how many GW of heat a centralized nuclear reactor dissipates 20:49 < justanotheruser> kanzure: do you think he's among us now 20:49 < kanzure> i am suspicious of entelchyios 20:49 < kanzure> but he might just be an idiot 20:49 < kanzure> or ebowden 20:50 < juri_> ebowden is safe 20:50 < kanzure> :shifty eyes: 20:50 < juri_> i brought him. 20:50 < ebowden> What might I be? 20:50 < fenn> definitely a CIA mole 20:50 < juri_> :P 20:50 < justanotheruser> fenn: yeah, you need coolness for your ASIC to not overheat. That is why there is the opposite of economies of scale 20:50 < kanzure> oh good, i always wanted a cia mole to play with 20:50 < fenn> lol actually i'm the mostly likely candidate for CIA mole 20:51 < kanzure> the conspiracy nut? yeah.. 20:51 * justanotheruser is a FDA mole 20:51 < ebowden> LOL 20:51 < kanzure> uh oh 20:51 < fenn> justanotheruser: that's bad logic 20:51 < ebowden> The FDA is a bit understaffed for that. 20:51 < fenn> justanotheruser: and it ignores the reality of HVAC engineering 20:51 < kanzure> yeah, they have to monitor basically everything 20:51 < justanotheruser> fenn: why? 20:51 < kanzure> no way they have enough staff 20:52 < fenn> justanotheruser: ok why do we still use nuclear power instead of windmills and solar 20:52 < justanotheruser> fenn: because it is more effecient 20:52 < fenn> but most people would rather have windmills and solar 20:53 < justanotheruser> fenn: because they falsely believe there is less risk? 20:53 < fenn> why is it more efficient to mine uranium, purify it, train people in esoteric arts of nuclear physics, build big high security concrete facilities with lots of special pipes and stuff 20:54 < justanotheruser> Because of the amount of energy produced through fission? I don't see how this is related 20:54 < fenn> also you can't put a nuclear reactor just anywhere, usually it needs to be near a river 20:54 < eudoxia> solar is better, eleitl said so, that settles it 20:54 * eudoxia wins first prize in the transhumanism science fair 20:54 < kanzure> first prize is a kickban 20:54 < justanotheruser> fenn: but you can put an ASIC anywhere with (preferably cheap) electricity 20:55 < fenn> your "ASICs are good because heat dissipation" is almost identical to the nuclear/solar fight 20:55 < eudoxia> :( 20:55 < justanotheruser> fenn: please concretely explain what your concern is 20:55 < fenn> my concern is you've jumped to conclusion about hashing algorithms based on some physics/engineering argument that doesn't make sense 20:56 < fenn> i'm not saying that you're right or wrong, just that the argument doesn't work 20:56 < justanotheruser> fenn: we want the max number of hashes per joule, whats wrong with that? 20:56 < justanotheruser> If you are far from the max, you risk someone optimizing and 51% attacking. 20:57 < fenn> joules are not equally distributed 20:58 < justanotheruser> Nope, they're not. those in cold area will use those joules to heat their home 20:58 < justanotheruser> *areas 20:59 < fenn> joules are easy to centralize. see the past 8 decades of war 20:59 < fenn> the shah/iran thing was all about oil (joules) 20:59 < justanotheruser> fenn: what is your concern with centralized power production and bitcoin? 20:59 < fenn> the US/soviet thing was all about nuclear (joules) 21:00 < fenn> why do you think relying on centralized fabs and centralized power production somehow leads to decentralization? 21:01 < justanotheruser> fenn: even in altcoins, the fabs and power are centralized 21:01 < cluckj> I wish I were a mole; I'd be getting paid for this 21:01 < fenn> here's an idea: an algorithm that is extremely vulnerable to viruses would be difficult to centralize because mass production is vulnerable to virus 21:01 < kanzure> what happened to that "natural research observation" stipend 21:02 < fenn> er, diversity protects against virus i mean 21:02 * fenn reads the rest of the pdf 21:02 < cluckj> it doesn't last forever 21:03 < kanzure> grad school? sure it does 21:03 < kanzure> just ask gradstudentbot 21:03 < kanzure> he's been here since forever 21:03 * kanzure wonders where gradstudentbot went 21:03 < cluckj> he graduated, duh 21:03 < kanzure> not for long 21:04 < justanotheruser> fenn: not sure what you mean. People would just make an ASIC that can't have a virus 21:04 < fenn> virus is used in the general sense, code that fucks up your system 21:05 < fenn> preferably self replicating information 21:05 -!- rk[1] [~rak@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:05 -!- echo[1] [~echo1]@stallman.cse.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:05 < kanzure> eudoxia: i'll dig up the logs later. good night. 21:05 -!- pyotra [~asakharov@24.60.79.55] has quit [Quit: quit] 21:05 < ebowden> Out of curiosity, has this channel developed any pharmaceuticals yet? 21:05 < ebowden> Night kanzure. 21:06 < justanotheruser> There isn't really a trust less "proof of fucked up system". People would just pretend to have a fucked up system 21:06 < fenn> no, the virus actually fucks up your system 21:06 < fenn> in order to generate proof of work, you have to have a non-fucked system 21:07 < justanotheruser> fenn: oh. 21:07 < justanotheruser> Then people would just protect themselves. 21:07 < justanotheruser> Which would probably be trivial 21:07 < fenn> the bitcoin algorithm requires you to be connected to a network and perform a defined series of tasks on the network data, so there's only so much isolation you can do 21:08 < ebowden> Well, by that I mean, what stuff have people here developed? 21:08 < fenn> ebowden: we are useless wankers, what do you want 21:08 < justanotheruser> fenn: it requires you to send a well defined set of messages and only execute sand boxed transaction scripts 21:08 < ebowden> I was just curious. 21:08 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:08 < justanotheruser> The virus or whatever would be sandboxed 21:09 < ebowden> Some people here seem terrified of the FDA. 21:09 < eudoxia> good night kanzure 21:09 < fenn> ok but it would still break the system running in the sandbox (by design) 21:09 < justanotheruser> If you want to see viruses executed by the block chain, wait for etherum :) 21:09 < fenn> ebowden: not terrified, just frustrated 21:10 < ebowden> Well, I can understand that. 21:10 < justanotheruser> fenn: seems like a bad design. How can a transaction evaluate to true if it crashes the sandbox 21:10 < ebowden> But would the FDA, providing they had the resources, actually have a reason to put a mole in here? 21:11 < justanotheruser> ebowden: yes. They sent me here to monitor Mr. Bishop 21:11 < cluckj> lol 21:11 < ebowden> LOL 21:11 < ebowden> Who's Mr. Bishop? 21:12 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:12 < fenn> who is john galt 21:12 < justanotheruser> ebowden: if you didnt know, why did you LOL 21:12 < ebowden> The send you in to monitor part. 21:12 < ebowden> *sent 21:12 < justanotheruser> ebowden: anyways, he is the single biggest threat to the FDA 21:12 < ebowden> Oh? 21:12 < cluckj> lol 21:12 < ebowden> Are you actually serious? 21:13 < justanotheruser> ebowden: yes. 21:13 < fenn> a man out of time, what dark mysteries lurk in his twisted mind 21:13 < cluckj> super serious 21:13 < justanotheruser> I have seen him offer medical advice on at least 27 different occasions. 21:13 < cluckj> he does it almost as much as I do 21:13 < ebowden> What kind of medical advice? 21:14 < fenn> will we learn the truth of the Feynman-Wolfram-Sarumpaet graph traversal vehicle? 21:14 < ebowden> And what about him makes him such a threat to the FDA? 21:14 < justanotheruser> ebowden: It doesn't matter. Any medical advice is a risk to our citizens health. 21:14 < eudoxia> didn't he once offer to install neuroimplants into anyone who showed up at his door 21:14 < ebowden> LOL 21:15 < cluckj> bad medical advice, or he wouldn't be a threat 21:15 < fenn> once he reanimated a dog via SSH with nothing but a hacked robot arm and a hospital crash cart 21:16 < justanotheruser> fenn: could we discuss this further in PM? Also, do you have a phone number I can contact you at? 21:16 < fenn> no, i don't like talking on phones 21:16 < fenn> do you want a more secure comm channel? 21:17 < andytoshi> kanzure, fenn: i have two articles, the ASIC one and the alts one, both are supposed to be on the wiki and the wiki copies are supposed to supercede the PDFs (because on #bitcoin nobody trusts pdfs) but that isn't how it worked out, i never remember the wiki links and they're harder for me to keep up to date anyway.. 21:17 < andytoshi> one sec, i'm reading the scrollback now.. 21:17 < justanotheruser> fenn: If Mr. Bishop is attempting to reanimate dogs, we need to investigate. Your cooperation would be much appreciated. 21:18 < fenn> oh i see. yes have the registered mail sent right over with the pre-prepared witness testimony and signature field clearly labeled 21:18 < cluckj> also your social security number 21:18 < fenn> also your bitcoin transaction number 21:18 < justanotheruser> fenn: are you being a wise guy? 21:19 < cluckj> also ya nan 21:19 < fenn> ... not a number? 21:19 < andytoshi> fenn: i am not going to do a list of PoW algos and coins, there is only one (scrypt) besides SHA2 which is used in an even remotely serious coin, and i talked about that one 21:20 -!- entelechy [~elysium@181.194.131.115] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:20 < andytoshi> i'm not going to discuss altcoins as though they are worth considering, they are crank crypto and all i intended to do there is dismantle the common claims about PoW algos that they make 21:20 < fenn> you can't debunk things by starting with the conclusion, it just "proves" that you don't like them 21:21 < justanotheruser> fenn: if it will make you cooperate, my bitcoin txid is. 04ffff001d0104455468652054696d65732030332f4a616e2f32303039204368616e63656c6c6f72206f6e206272696e6b206f66207365636f6e64206261696c6f757420666f722062616e6b73 21:21 < andytoshi> fenn: "these aren't worth considering individually, so i will debunk the blanket claims made instead" is perfectly valid 21:22 < andytoshi> common blanket claims* 21:23 < juri_> gmv 21:23 < juri_> um... 21:23 < fenn> go back to sleep juri 21:23 < justanotheruser> andytoshi: hi how are you 21:23 < juri_> http://demo1.faikvm.com/trac/wiki/Incentivization 21:24 < andytoshi> fenn: in http://www.cypherpunks.to/faq/cyphernomicron/chapter5.html search for "I Have a New Idea for a Cipher", there is a good argument there for why cryptosystems are assumed broken by default 21:24 < juri_> please be gentle. i have RSI and can barely type. 21:24 < andytoshi> hi justanotheruser, i'm good but tired, it's 11:30 here and i'm off to bed soon 21:25 < andytoshi> juri_: you should switch to dvorak 21:25 < juri_> i have. 21:26 < andytoshi> juri_: a CPU is way way way way way way way way more complicated than an ASIC, you can audit an asic design but no chance for a CPU 21:28 < fenn> hmm.. i read some scifi story where the FTL drive ran on prime numbers.. they got stuck somewhere because someone had "double spent" the prime number they were counting on to get back, and the ship mathematician had to come up with a new algorithm for discovering primes or die of starvation... it was a metaphor for peak oil or something 21:29 < andytoshi> in most cases i'd agree that free software is a good end in itself, in this case i think what we really want is maximum auditability (and not necessarily ease of modifaction) 21:29 < fenn> it wasn't a monetary system, somehow the universe knew directly about prime numbers 21:29 < andytoshi> so you want a design which leads to simple hardware rather than general-purpose hardware 21:30 < andytoshi> that's a cool idea fenn, luckily our physics seem to have simpler laws than that 21:30 < andytoshi> though who knows, maybe we can label everett branches in some way so the prime ones are happier.. 21:31 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:35 < fenn> "mine the primes" by julian todd: http://web.archive.org/web/20120312182345/http://www.freesteel.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Mine_the_Primes 21:35 < andytoshi> super, it's short 21:36 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:36 < fenn> julian is interesting to me personally because he has an insider's view of programming commercial CAM software algorithms, for doing path planning of machine tool cutters 21:37 < fenn> he talks quite a bit about the pros/cons of different strategies from a position of experience 21:38 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:39 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-53-124-39.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:39 < fenn> juri_: do you know about http://plover.stenoknight.com 21:41 < kanzure> too bad none of the keyboards i keep buying have n-key rollover 21:41 < juri_> neat. 21:41 < fenn> i think keyboards is the wrong way to go 21:41 < juri_> thanks. 21:42 < fenn> i mean, if you're going to build a chording system, it should map to your hands better than some rectangular plane grid 21:42 < fenn> at that point you might as well just use a microcontroller 21:42 < kanzure> show me a chording system that has higher wpm and i'll look at it 21:43 < kanzure> otherwise i reserve the right to continue to be bored 21:43 < fenn> i'm talking about the hardware, not the mapping 21:43 < fenn> uh. glug. 21:43 < kanzure> mapping doesn't determine wpm 21:43 < fenn> yes it does 21:43 < juri_> fenn: i'll accept help... 21:43 < fenn> see huffman coding theory etc 21:43 < kanzure> that's like claiming dvorak should cause me to type at 1/100th the speed, which is wrong 21:43 < juri_> it does me. 21:44 < kanzure> you can't map anything to 6 keys 21:44 < fenn> yes dvorak causes me to type at 1/100 speed :P 21:44 < kanzure> if it requires more key presses you're going to go slower 21:44 < juri_> still learning... 21:44 < andytoshi> i switched to dvorak for comfort reasons, not speed. i do think it's faster now that i've learned it but i don't think speed and comfort necessarily go together 21:44 < fenn> kanzure: what are you talking about, they started out with ONE key using morse code 21:45 < kanzure> one key is going to go slower than qwerty man 21:45 < kanzure> no amount of mapping is going to fix your one key keyboard 21:45 < andytoshi> well, there was keypresses and pauses 21:45 < andytoshi> if 'pause' has meaning it's gonna be slow :) 21:45 < kanzure> i would like to assume that pause has meaning 21:45 < fenn> ok so where's your exosuit keyboard 21:46 < fenn> shift tilt-neck pinky toe sphincter 21:46 < kanzure> awaiting fda approval? i dunno 21:46 < kanzure> dingo: is your custom keyboard fda-approved by any chance? 21:46 < fenn> that's the shortcut for "send hate mail to FDA" 21:47 < kanzure> this has been enlightening 21:47 < kanzure> andytoshi: sup? 21:48 < andytoshi> kanzure: not much, headed to bed once i'm done this prime number story, going to a jam tomorrow afternoon 21:48 < andytoshi> you? 21:48 < kanzure> i forget, something about stratum protocol proxying stuff 21:49 < kanzure> "Why don't they make the whole damn plane out of the black box?" 21:50 < dingo> Its not custom, just expensive 21:51 < fenn> does bitcoin ASIC speedups decrease the wait time for transaction validation overall? 21:51 -!- rk[1] [~rak@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:51 < kanzure> a block is mined on average every 10 minutes 21:51 < kanzure> the difficulty is adjusted to target this time 21:51 < fenn> why 10 minutes? 21:51 < kanzure> ask satoshi? 21:52 < kanzure> ask andytoshi 21:52 < fenn> i mean it's a long time to wait in the checkout line when you just want a soda 21:53 < fenn> i guess that's what exchanges are for tho 21:53 < kanzure> some people don't wait for any confirmations, just basic validation (that the signature is right) 21:54 < kanzure> fenn, did you see that study about data mining the web to do search for evidence of time travelers? 21:54 < fenn> it was erased prior to publication 21:54 < fenn> i mean, uh, no? 21:55 < kanzure> me either 21:55 < fenn> what were we talking about again? 21:55 < andytoshi> if it is too small, the percentage of stale blocks (ones where the blockchain forks away from it) goes up, which is wasteful. and if it's really too small then the whole network doesn't hear of blocks in time, so it doesn't converge on a consensus 21:55 < andytoshi> also short blocktimes mean more bandwidth and more validation to do 21:55 < andytoshi> to the best of my knowledge 10 minutes was completely arbitrary, but those are the considerations 21:56 < fenn> so it's related to internet latency? 21:56 < fenn> but in some bizarre algorithmic way 21:57 < andytoshi> yeah, it tries to be higher than the worst-case latency 21:57 < andytoshi> given that bitcoin is a mesh p2p network and there might be crappy nodes out there 21:57 < fenn> i can make an arbitrarily crappy node 21:58 < fenn> even one that doesn't work at all :P 21:58 < andytoshi> fenn: re "mine the primes", according to http://homes.cerias.purdue.edu/~ssw/shortage.pdf there are like 10^150 512-bit primes. i can find one on my laptop in under a second i bet. so primes are not so scarce after all 21:58 < andytoshi> fenn: sure, but hopefully you aren't a nontrivial part of the hashrate with a node like that! 21:59 < fenn> andytoshi: in the story it talks about how they thought primes were plentiful but it turns out they weren't 21:59 < fenn> once you start blowing through huge numbers of something as a matter of course 21:59 < andytoshi> oh, alright, i'll keep reading then.. 21:59 < fenn> i thought that was at the beginning 22:00 < andytoshi> oh, yeah, i've seen the part where they talk about it taking minutes, then hours 22:00 < andytoshi> and also the claim that it gets exponentially harder 22:00 < fenn> all the easily discovered primes were used for trivial crap 22:01 < andytoshi> i'd claim that you can't even iterate through all the 1024-bit primes in the lifetime of the universe, and they're all easily discovered 22:01 < andytoshi> also PRIMES is in P, there is a paper with that title, so it's not exponentian 22:01 < kanzure> is this flatland for number theorists 22:01 < kanzure> flatland for greg egan 22:01 < fenn> is "exponentian" a typo? 22:01 < andytoshi> yeah 22:01 < andytoshi> exponential 22:01 < andytoshi> damn dvorak.. 22:02 < fenn> kanzure: it's peak oil for mathematicians, or something 22:03 < fenn> kanzure: you remember freesteel.co.uk right, that's the author 22:06 < fenn> "The human race had squandered all the easy to find numbers as fast as they could grab them" is the mcguffin description 22:07 < andytoshi> fwiw most peak oil claims are also scientifically illiterate ;) 22:08 < fenn> i'm not about to argue with an author about how his FTL drive doesn't make sense 22:08 < andytoshi> lol 22:08 < andytoshi> but it's so productive 22:09 < andytoshi> it's a good story anyway, i'm just being a dick whining about the density of primes 22:09 < fenn> oh speaking of FTL, this is thought provoking http://arxiv.org/abs/0708.0681 22:10 < fenn> two scientists say they have now tunneled photons "instantaneously" across a distance of up to one meter.  22:13 < fenn> it might just be a re-iteration of a common physics misunderstanding, but i'm not familiar enough to know the difference between "wave packet shaping" and "information transfer" 22:14 < fenn> ' If they can make photons go at whatever speed they say, isn't the flow of photons kinda what "light" is? .. So wouldn't it still be going at the speed of light not matter what "by definition"? 22:15 < fenn> 'see the quantum mechnaics text book by LeBellac, it has a fairly good explaination of quantum teleportaion and why it does not violate reletivity.' blah 22:15 < andytoshi> nah, the 'speed of light' refers to the c which appears in special relativity, which governs causal connectivity 22:16 < andytoshi> and iirc this is the same old media understanding, no FTL information transfer 22:17 < justanotheruser> How do I learn mechanics electricity and optics? Khan academy? 22:18 < fenn> wikipedia! 22:18 < fenn> for electricity i liked http://falstad.com/circuit/ 22:19 < fenn> also you need to actually build stuff in the real world to ground your understanding 22:19 < justanotheruser> I'm talking physics, not electronics btw 22:20 < fenn> i regret to inform you that the real world is physics 22:21 < fenn> i guess you mean static analysis 22:21 < justanotheruser> fenn: yeah, and I'm talking about the physics behind electricity and magnetism 22:22 < fenn> as far as i can tell, nobody knows much about "what is electricty, really" 22:22 < fenn> i hear the feynman lectures are good 22:23 < justanotheruser> OK thanks 22:25 < fenn> 84MB one moment please 22:28 < fenn> justanotheruser: http://fennetic.net/irc/Feynman_Lectures_on_Physics_Volumes_1_2_3_-_Feynman_and_Leighton_and_Sands.pdf 22:28 < justanotheruser> Thanks 22:37 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:50 < fenn> NMR is probably another cheap lab equipment that should be doable 22:53 < fenn> my understanding is that the signal to noise ratio is related to the length of time spent, the radio frequency electronics sensitivity, and the magnet strength. so there is a tradeoff that can prevent the requirement for a huge magnet 23:07 < dingo> any feynman lecture is good 23:08 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.24.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:12 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.24.244] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:36 -!- drewbug [~Adium@fsf/member/drewbug] has joined ##hplusroadmap --- Log closed Sun May 11 00:00:01 2014