--- Log opened Sat May 10 00:00:00 2014
00:04 -!- ParahSailin [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
00:05 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
00:07 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:08 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:08 -!- ParahSailin [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:14 -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
00:18 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:24 < sheena1> who takes magnesium for allergies? i forget the dose
00:24 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:27 <@_archels> .title http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00199/full
00:27 < yoleaux> Online transcranial Doppler ultrasonographic control of an onscreen keyboard
00:33 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:36 -!- catern_ [~catern@catern.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:37 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d173-183-72-139.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
00:45 -!- catern [~catern@108.174.58.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
00:45 -!- catern_ is now known as catern
00:55 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:04 < fenn> sheena1: 1 Tablespoon or 500mg, start slow. recently i got a "true HEPA" air filter and it actually helped
01:04 < sheena1> filtering air makes a big difference for me as well. im not at home, and its mostly the hay when doing barn chores... i could wear my mask but ugh
01:04 < sheena1> i got capsules.. citrate.. righ?
01:04 < fenn> right
01:05 < sheena1> ok. 500 mg is the final dose you're taking?
01:05 < fenn> i don't really measure, probably more
01:06 < sheena1> okie
01:06 < sheena1> side effects?
01:06 < fenn> an easy, relaxed feeling
01:06 < fenn> can cause diarrhea if taking too much
01:06 < sheena1> same as vitc etc then
01:07 < fenn> yep ideally we'd just take magnesium ascorbate but it's harder to get
01:07 < sheena1> :)
01:18 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: streety
01:25 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
01:29 -!- Netsplit over, joins: streety
01:35 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:51 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:08 -!- joshcryer [~g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:11 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:12 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:12 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has quit [Changing host]
02:12 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:25 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: streety
02:36 -!- Netsplit over, joins: streety
02:49 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:17 < fenn> this is a curious device. as someone who runs out of ram constantly, it's worth a shot http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Super-Talent-Ram-Disk-RamDisk,23173.html http://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Talent-32GB-Express-Ram-Disk-USB-3-0-Flash-Drive-TLC-/190918854844
03:18 < fenn> i wonder what happens during sleep/suspend mode
03:22 < fenn> the numbers don't match up 125MB/s read 42MB/s write is nowhere near "4041 MB/s read and 5388 MB/s write"
03:22 < fenn> it doesn't really matter with USB 2.0
03:30 < fenn> aw man it looks like it just installs some crap software to pretend like there's a disk http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/5891/super-talent-dram-disk-16gb-usb-3-0-flash-drive-review/index.html
03:30 < fenn> i just want a USB external DRAM bay
03:30 < fenn> why is that so hard
03:37 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:38 < fenn> maybe ram disks are obsolete now with faster flash drives
03:54 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: streety
04:04 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
04:06 -!- Netsplit over, joins: streety
04:07 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:17 -!- joshcryer [~g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has quit []
04:22 -!- abetusk [~abe@208.184.72.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
04:29 < pasky> fenn: because USB is on a completely different level than DRAM in PC architecture; you need to be able to access RAM directly from the CPU, not based on exchanging pretty-please messages with USB controller
04:29 < pasky> fenn: you will just have to swap somewhere
04:30 < pasky> fenn: aside of storage devices, an interesting option is swapping into your GPU's memory (unless you have shared CPU/GPU memory in your notebook)
04:31 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:33 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:39 -!- raonyguimaraes [~raony@187.20.225.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
04:53 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:02 < fenn> it's shared
05:02 < fenn> i realize USB and RAM are totally separate; i was thinking of it from a swap perspective from the beginning
05:03 < fenn> however, "fast" flash drives are only in the 10-50MB/s continuous write range, with random read/write being much slower
05:03 < fenn> a USB RAM bay (just a bunch of ram in a box with a USB transciever) would not have this problem
05:05 < fenn> especially if there were a tiny bit of glue software to queue up read requests so as not to make lots of tiny USB packets
05:07 < fenn> there are so many cheap ARM mini PC's with 2GB of RAM and tons of USB ports
05:07 < fenn> they just need a little help
05:22 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:22 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:24 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
05:28 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@36.90-149-182.nextgentel.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:34 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:40 < kanzure> so in the elastomeric thin film thing it has an array of wires sticking out?
05:44 < fenn> i don't know what you're talking about
05:44 < kanzure> 23:26 < fenn> the circuitry used to drive an electroluminescent display is somewhat similar to driving an array of PZT transducers
05:44 < kanzure> 23:26 < fenn> lots of little high voltage AC wires
05:45 < fenn> ok i was just musing on how they are similar technologies
05:45 < fenn> probably both perovskite crystals too
05:47 < fenn> the EL display has indium tin oxide front conductors and "light absorbent row electrodes" whatever that means, presumably copper oxide coated copper
05:49 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/fennetic.net:~/irc/lumineq_electroluminescent_display_cross_section.png
05:49 < fenn> derp
05:49 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/lumineq_electroluminescent_display_cross_section.png
05:52 < kanzure> http://bgr.com/2014/05/09/fcc-net-neutrality-controversy/
05:52 < kanzure> "The Federal Communications Commission would rather read your thoughts about net neutrality than hear about them. Columbia Law School professor and leading net neutrality activist Tim Wu points out that calling the FCC’s main consumer hotline will give you a message that asks you to write an email to the commission if you’re calling about FCC chairman Tom Wheeler’s controversial net neutrality plans."
05:52 < kanzure> in other words.. their pipes aren't able to handle the load. aww.
05:52 < fenn> does that mean you should call them or email them?
05:53 < fenn> oh i know, we can pay them "preferred carrier status" so we can call them
05:53 < kanzure> afaik emails to any government agency aren't supposed to work, unless it's the type where you end up paying for a service (like FOIA requests)
05:53 < fenn> postcards it is then
05:54 < kanzure> yes preferred carrier was the phrase i was looking for thanks
05:54 < fenn> i just made that up
05:55 < kanzure> i am pretty sure the fcc deals with preferred carriers. googling shows that they have regulation of such.
05:56 < kanzure> hah coindesk apparently allows straight up infomercials http://www.coindesk.com/network-analysts-view-block-chain/
05:57 < kanzure> (the author is pimping his company)
05:57 < fenn> i think i'm going to use this as my swap drive: http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Extreme-Flash-Drive-SDCZ80-016G-X46/dp/B007YXA5S8/
05:58 < fenn> it has really good 4k write speed
05:58 < fenn> someone took it apart and there's a SATA hard disk controller inside
06:05 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:10 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:11 -!- Adifex [Adifex@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fe6e:f4e8] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:24 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:25 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
06:33 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:54 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
06:57 < FourFire> fenn does it have enough endurance?
07:01 -!- abetusk [~abe@208.184.72.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:09 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
07:51 -!- raonyguimaraes [~raony@187.20.225.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:54 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
08:15 < kanzure> fenn: i think any reform of the fda would have to come with reform of the patent office too
08:15 < kanzure> maybe jojack knows someone who has put together a reasonable proposal that has a chance of actually working
08:15 < kanzure> ("delete both organizations" isn't likely to happen)
08:18 < kanzure> http://patents.justia.com/examiner/rochelle-ann-j-blackman
08:19 < kanzure> .title
08:19 < yoleaux> Patents by Examiner Rochelle Ann J Blackman
08:27 -!- escapier [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:28 < escapier> Hi are there other transhumanist chanels outthere, some better/more important/active?
08:28 < kanzure> this is the largest and most active, see evidence here: http://gnusha.org/logs/
08:29 < kanzure> lee smolin Spin networks Ltd, 158 Crawford St, Toronto, ON M6J 2V4 Canada
08:29 < escapier> I am interested in IRC chanels not something else.
08:30 < kanzure> my link is irc channel logs, learn to read
08:31 < escapier> i read it, but i just said you that your answer does not fir my questions.
08:31 < escapier> *fit
08:31 < kanzure> there are none that are better, more important or more active
08:31 < kanzure> most of them are dead
08:31 < kanzure> so basically none
08:32 < escapier> It isok. Is there any campain against Transhumanism, it seems so to me.
08:32 < kanzure> but here's some historical archives that you can compare against: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/extropians/irclogs/
08:33 < catern> escapier: yes, the illuminati wants to prevent tranhumanist ideas from reaching the masses. we are the only enlightened ones who see the truth left
08:33 < kanzure> in particular extropy.log transinst.log immortal.log vpsummit.log immortal2.log wta.log sl4.log
08:34 < kanzure> catern: cute, but i think you can do better
08:35 < catern> yeah, i just tried to get something out quickly
08:35 < escapier> Ok i stay serious, there are a lots of negative conspirancy theories on youtube in the last mounth and all intersting discussions are far behind them, also on google there are no real boards for transhuman thoughts, just negativ comentars.
08:35 < kanzure> escapier: why does any of that matter? "if you watch enough youtube videos, you'll live forever"
08:42 -!- escapier [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
08:47 -!- escapist [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:48 < escapist> rejoin
08:49 < kanzure> "Optical lenses cannot distinguish between electric and magnetic photon rays."
08:49 < escapist> i download all logs right now
08:49 -!- raonyguimaraes [~raony@187.20.225.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:51 < escapist> kanzure: do you know transhuman/biohcking online communities they are worth to join an free not like http://humanityplus.org/get-involved-2/join/join-hplus/
08:53 < escapist> does somebody else know any?
08:54 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:55 < kanzure> escapist: humanityplus.org isn't really worth anyone's time. they don't do anything.
08:56 < kanzure> escapist: i recommend not joining groups
08:56 < escapist> why?
08:58 < escapist> kanzure: is there an particualer reason whynot?
08:59 < kanzure> why would you want to join a group that doesn't do anything?
09:01 < escapist> um-- let think
09:03 < kanzure> trick question
09:04 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:05 < escapist> 1. I am not a expert (yet), so it would great if i have someone i could ask, why not irc? - I thinks its more comfortable in a group 2. I need friends ;-) 3. I am not the (proto)type of guy doing anything alone in a laboritory 3. Iam in interested in poeple, i wANT TO DISCUSS with them, try to solve problems together 4. Working in groups incease the dopamin, specialy when you done something good and other notice this.
09:07 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:08 < escapist> Why not irc, no real trust possible in irc, -> no real cooperation. There are are so far away, no real identification possible. kanzure does these selfish reasons make sense to you?
09:08 < kanzure> why is "real identification" important? i don't understand
09:08 < kanzure> no, none of this makes sense to me
09:08 < kanzure> do you really care who i am as long as my tools work? that's racist holmes :)
09:09 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_photon "There is no experimental evidence for the existence of this particle, and several versions [1] have been ruled out by negative experiments.[2]" well then wtf is this? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/physics/Possible%20observation%20of%20a%20second%20kind%20of%20light%20-%20magnetic%20photon%20rays.pdf
09:09 < kanzure> nsh: poke, see last message
09:13 < escapist> Racism, is when you do not value someone, because his dna has some othere molecules then mine and i see a danger for my childreen from this kind of human. What i talk about is total opposite, i want to value poeple and want that people value me, because we are different, because we know each other, because i ear and give trust by/to someone. The main imporvement of have poeple around they can really help you up when you in a
09:13 < kanzure> okay, well that sounds really boring and stuff, let me know when you want to work on transhumanist projects
09:14 < escapist> when you have poeple around you they help you as well you would help them , when you never expiered some situation youve missed something big.
09:15 < kanzure> i assure you that being in the humanityplus.org group does not advance any transhumanist goals whatsoever
09:15 < escapist> Ähmm. in future, ofcourse, nor in past nor in present ...
09:15 < kanzure> i should note that i was employed by them at one point
09:15 < kanzure> so i have actual, you know, evidence and experience that you're totally welcome to ignore
09:16 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:16 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:17 < escapist> thats is why i asking you for communities, just as kick start , that i do not have to annoy the same humans all the time ..
09:17 < escapist> thats why i am asking you, when do you have better ideas i shut up and listen#
09:18 < kanzure> huh? i don't understand at all. what's wrong with just doing projects in this irc channel?
09:19 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects has an old list of things that were being kicked around
09:19 < kanzure> (from this channel)
09:21 < escapist> I have nothing really against the medium irc itself. but do you have the time to explain a nearly newcomer, everything he need to know, that would be awesome, but i guess not. So a more closed group than a irc, could train/teach/explain me everything much better then any irc could, because these people i spend time with, know me and know what i know...
09:22 < escapist> kanzure , do you see good points in a more famliar group, for beginners like me?
09:23 < kanzure> so you think that an irc channel can't teach you anything because...?
09:23 < kanzure> maybe i am unfamiliar to you because you have only met me 10 minutes ago
09:24 < kanzure> which seems fairly normal
09:25 < escapist> i do not tell that he cannot teach me anything, but people they know at least a bit, can better teach me thats because
09:26 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: streety
09:26 < escapist> they know my strenghts and my weaknesses so they could focus on what i need>
09:26 < catern> standard debating XML
09:27 < escapist> he does not seemed to get my point... so its my fault and i need to improve the clearness of my thoughts
09:28 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
09:28 < escapist> catern do you understand what i want to say?
09:29 < dingo> now dont bring xml into this
09:29 < dingo> thats a straw man
09:29 < kanzure> it's okay to just say "i don't like irc"
09:31 < escapist> I like irc ( see above), otherwise i wouldnot be hear. Every task needs a tool and i think specally for newbies they need to get in to the materia, a open communtity with fast changing members is not the best tool.
09:33 < kanzure> can you describe the nature of the closed community you want, and why you think it would be more effective at transhumanist projects?
09:35 < escapist> Andno real rules, newbies often wnat something like a red threat they can catch when they fall or get lost, but irc just do not provide that. Thats why i think, @ the actual moment of my infos and knowledge a more closed, more ruled is better for beginners. Answer to your questioni do not think there is one right tool, thats ideal for everybody, there different tools for different situation. Irc good for andvanced oes, i to
09:36 < dingo> i to also
09:36 < dingo> glad we agree
09:37 < escapist> they start to get in the materia it is not ideal as mentioned above. So to your question using a forum and irc for example would fit both needs and optimize the security, privacy problems of an irc
09:38 -!- Netsplit over, joins: streety
09:38 < kanzure> how did this turn into forum vs irc?? weren't you talking about something else first
09:39 < escapist> in a forum there are rules, in class also not the speed of the information the childreen get is important, but that they understand the links between, in research the speed is much more important because anyone understand the basics
09:40 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:43 < kanzure> are you suggesting this irc channel doesn't have rules?
09:43 < kanzure> i am not trying to be difficult, but your line of reasoning is very difficult to follow
09:43 < escapist> this no forum vs irc, thats a pro-forum-and-irc i talked about a group that help me get the basic knowledge.
09:45 < kanzure> irc can help you get basic knowledge if necessary
09:45 < kanzure> what do you want to know?
09:47 < escapist> I am pro-irc-and-forum. Why do we need a forum? In my opinion a forum is better for educating the newcomers, f.E: you can link to solved problems, toturials and do need to summurize for everyone everytie someone asks. Why not jsut forum: Because for advanced prefer irc. Answer to your question follows:
09:48 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
09:49 < escapist> 1. How i start? 2. What i need? 3. Are there any easy exper. to start? 4.REQUEST Long list books i should read 5. Required basic knowledge?
09:51 < escapist> Thats what i want to know, when you a forum, people can found the information by themself f.E: from a thread literatur need to readedto understand the basics. but it also allows questions and comments not like toturial website
09:52 < kanzure> why couldn't they just look at links given to them over irc?
09:52 < kanzure> also, here's the channel's wiki: http://diyhpl.us/wiki
09:52 < kanzure> you can read the books here: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/
09:53 < kanzure> here's some do-it-yourself biohacking frequently asked questions: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq
09:53 < kanzure> a list of areas of knowledge to look into is also written here http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration
09:53 < kanzure> since i have given you these links without the use of a forum, does that invalidate your assertion by any chance?
09:54 < escapist> i ve already downloaded them ...
09:58 < escapist> i give you point, but just small one, do you want to that for Example poeple per day? - I assume no. When i would have a special questions about ribbosons, you can tell me X is expert for that. That means i have to wait till X is on and maybe just get redirected. In a Forum anybody that knows the topic can just ggive me the neede information, much easier much faster, back to one of your question:"How does this help the trans
09:59 < escapist> example 5 or 15
10:00 < kanzure> if you look more closely, you will see that the wiki has content
10:01 < kanzure> by the way, your message is getting clipped at the ends, see http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-05-10.log to see the cutoffs
10:01 < kanzure> fenn: this is an okay article, http://nige.wordpress.com/2010/08/14/freeman-dyson-on-richard-feynmans-path-integral-quantum-field-theory/
10:03 < escapist> You are right, you can explain everything to someone in a irc, but a forum as starting point, offers more possiblity, special the recruts, than a wiki, click my self though endless list sites, does not really increase the motivation to make the world a better place, does it? @ .log yes of course you can do that of courxe you can search in chat logs for the answer of your problems, i love i can do it al day>
10:04 < kanzure> no, i am not telling you to search the logs, i am telling you that your messages are experiencing cutoff -_- learn to read
10:05 < kanzure> also i find your theory that forums are better than wikis for content to be highly suspicious
10:06 < kanzure> i also find "motivation to make the world a better place" highly suspcious too-- do you know what transhumanism is?
10:08 < escapist> tell, oh grand all knowing Übermensch , tell me - ofcourse i get a bit rhetoric when i talk about it. But just telling me that i should formulate i better does improvve nithing, does it?
10:08 < escapist> tell me what i ve done wrong so i can improve.
10:09 < kanzure> you're calling me an ubmernsch because i have called you out on a silly opinion?
10:11 < kanzure> most of the time i see the "forums are better than mailing lists" opinion, but "forums are better than wikis" is quite a new take on that traditional argument
10:11 < kanzure> is there anything a forum can't do, golly geewhiz
10:12 < escapist> do you mean this real? Do i real have to answer? Tell me what i could improve that you understand me better. Can we both stop using rhetoric that much? It make it more simple
10:12 < kanzure> i am not using rhetoric. i honestly believe that there is content on this wiki http://diyhpl.us/wiki that you should read. this is why i gave you the links. this is not because of rhetoric.
10:16 < escapist> In a forum you can basicily do anything, also i blog or a irc, you can make a wiki in irc, of course and you can answer questions in a forum as well. The question is how good,but can we leave this discussion. There are thinks forums are good for and there are less good for can we agree on that?Thank forrecomdenig the wiki i just downloading all 1600++ pdfs at the moment. Downloaded all sites i met.
10:18 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:19 < escapist> kanzure : thanks for helping me.
10:19 < escapist> Where would you recomend me to start with?
10:19 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/
10:21 < kanzure> hahahaha: "Not true, you will always want to hide some things from some people and not from others. For example, I produce a chemical product which i sell to company a, company b would love to know how much i charge to company a but i don't want them to know. The industry regulators want to see all my transactions for national security purposes. Bitcoin can deliver in this scenario way more effectively than any native currency via BIP32 ...
10:21 < kanzure> ... address systems. I can transact in private on the blockchain and provide my master public key to any authority that wants to audit me. That is amazing."
10:21 < kanzure> "The industry regulators want to see all my transactions for national security purposes." riiight
10:22 < escapist> Ok, that are 1600 books, do oyu understand that this answer is frustrating.
10:23 < kanzure> yeah, doing things is "hard"
10:23 < kanzure> it's unfortunate, but you can't give up on doing things
10:24 < kanzure> also the wiki is much less content than 1600 books at the moment
10:26 -!- escapist [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
10:27 < kanzure> haha
10:27 < kanzure> "If we can just write enough epic emails or forum posts at each other, we'll live forever!"
10:28 -!- escapistr [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:29 < FourFire> kanzure, IKR
10:30 < FourFire> it's annoying because I feel like it's my duty to instruct people that they're going to actually have to Make that shit Happen if they want to actually enjoy the benefits
10:30 < kanzure> it's annoying because duty?
10:31 < FourFire> I am lazy
10:31 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
10:31 < delinquentme> TIL "technical gelatin" ... almost sounds like it could be used as growth medium
10:34 -!- escapistr [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
10:35 -!- escapist [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:35 -!- Burnin8 is now known as Burninate
10:36 < escapist> i agree that it is anoying to explain anything
10:37 < kanzure> it's not annoying to explain things, it's annoying that they are wrong
10:38 < escapist> i also know that and i am every time a little embrassed when i need to ask strangers, for a way the basic informations. Ok, explain :-)
10:38 < escapist> i am irritated what do you mean with them are wrong?
10:38 < escapist> *they
10:39 < FourFire> it's annoying having to explain the same thing over and over
10:39 < escapist> can e
10:40 < escapist> i agree, but as long there is no guide, no red threat,i can follow i need to ask others asked 100 times before the same question.
10:40 < escapist> itsis really embrassing i know that, i am also a expert for many things compared to my age.
10:41 < kanzure> nobody cares about your age here
10:42 < escapist> Thats one thing i love about the irc's
10:44 < escapist> But it is hard to start reading 1600 articles and books about something you do not even no all basics, and i think i do not know all. It is like you want teach programming to someone that can not sum or divide nor know the basic logic statments.
10:44 < escapist> You agree?
10:45 < kanzure> no
10:46 < kanzure> i believe you can teach programming to someone who does not know division or addition
10:46 < kanzure> turtle programming showed this, i believe. or possibly earlier versions.
10:47 < escapist> Ok, that was just an example, you can not teach poetry when the other can not even write or read.
10:47 < escapist> Agree on that?
10:47 -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:47 < kanzure> no, because for centuries there were poets that could not read or write- they would recite oral histories
10:48 < escapist> ok, you a smart, i give up, but i thin you understand the core of my sentence.
10:48 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:48 < kanzure> i am not smart, sigh
10:48 < kanzure> i just think you're wrong
10:49 < escapist> Do you think it is wrong to learn the basics before creating life?
10:49 < kanzure> it is neither right nor wrong- many births occur before anyone learns "the basics"
10:50 < escapist> Do you want to teach me transhumanism/biohacking?
10:50 < kanzure> i fucking gave you links dude
10:50 < kanzure> i have no idea why you would ask that question after receiving said links
10:52 < escapist> Ok, break it down i need to read 1600 books of highly speciased reasearch to talk with you again?
10:53 < escapist> These scene will break down, no newcomers.
10:56 < kanzure> i didn't say you're not allowed to talk to me, i said you should read the wiki, and you should
10:56 < kanzure> look, even if it was a forum, you would still have to read the fucking content
10:57 -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
10:57 < escapist> I agree, i realize that i do not want a forum.
10:58 -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:59 < FourFire> escapist, a lot of the nessecary information which you need to get from people is the terms for concepts, which you can then learn about on your own, also the relations between these concepts and how they are interconnected or interdependent
11:01 < escapist> ok, i aamjustoverwhelmed by the 1600 books, FourFire can you give a short list "What to do and then ask again"?
11:02 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
11:02 < FourFire> such a list is dynamic and dependent on your current knowledge (of which I can't possibly know) and what you need to know in order to accomplish your goal
11:03 < FourFire> escapist, what is your question?
11:03 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@36.90-149-182.nextgentel.com] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"]
11:04 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:04 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@36.90-149-182.nextgentel.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:05 < escapist> My question where should i start. You are right that you can not know what i can do or can not, but i know which parts i can skip. so giving a recomend listof thinks to read(around 20 books) maybe i know where to start
11:05 < kanzure> why is "read the wiki" not an appropriate answer?
11:05 < FourFire> ok reading the backlog, escapist I think you should begin to read the wiki entries which kanzure liked you
11:05 < kanzure> it's less than 20 fucking pages. screw you.
11:05 < FourFire> linked*
11:06 < FourFire> read them, and when those lead you to further things, read those further things, if there's some complex concept you don't understand, google/wikipedia it first, and if you can't figure it out, ask in here
11:07 < FourFire> escapist, if you are overwhelemed by 1600 books, then don't see it as 1600 books, see it as first 16 books, and afterwards 16 more books
11:07 < FourFire> and so on
11:10 < escapist> faq done, i do not ger te structure of the wiki, it confusing. The wiki has no real starting point. There something called optimization in informatic. It means you readuce the run time of your algorythm to get the needed result. You say i should start with the first 16 books. In which order? Because starting with a is maybe not the best idea because in worst case all information i needed was in book started with zy and so i
11:10 < FourFire> escapist Er du Svenska?
11:11 < kanzure> the wiki's starting point is the front page, just like any other stupid website
11:11 < kanzure> argh how many times do i have to tell you about cutoff. check the logs: http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-05-10.log
11:14 < escapist> in the wiki, lots of sub-sub-sub categoriers. They do not interest me as a starter. The starting page offers me a structure of the wiki, but where i start in the wiki at a-a-a-a it is not the efficient way of doing things @log i downloaded 250 mb of them.
11:15 < kanzure> that's not why i mentioned the logs
11:15 < kanzure> i mentioned the logs because of cutoff in your messages
11:15 < kanzure> so that you can see what the cutoff looks like
11:15 < kanzure> go look
11:17 < kanzure> escapist: since you hate everything i have suggested so far, can you propose a better sequence of tools and instructions than already provided through the biohacking faq and the other content on the wiki?
11:18 < cluckj> a specific question about a particular topic might help, too
11:22 < escapist> I am just overwhelmed by it i not hate but that is not the point. I will propose a get:started in the wiki and a jargon file. How the get started should look like. Starting at the basics link to good explanation for example for Dna, how cells get energy and such basic stuff, than link to level:2 in which you explain thinks build on this build on these basics and then on level:3 the user has the choice which he i particular i
11:23 < kanzure> you still don't understand the concept of cutoff
11:23 < escapist> about the basic chemicals used dna splitting and what they do. ... Ok tell me the concept i am missing?
11:23 < kanzure> .d cutoff
11:23 < yoleaux> cut-off (): n. 1. A point or level which is a designated limit of something: 2,500 g is the standard ⁓ below which infants are categorized as ‘low birthweight’ — http://is.gd/g7KagI
11:24 < kanzure> look at the log and compare it to the message you sent: http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-05-10.log
11:24 < escapist> you mean i am missing some kind of information between resfreshes?
11:25 < kanzure> no
11:25 < FourFire> escapist, you should read the things which seemed relevant from reading the wiki
11:26 < kanzure> .g irc text truncation
11:26 < yoleaux> https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/4753
11:26 < kanzure> .t
11:26 < yoleaux> Sat, 10 May 2014 18:26:47 UTC
11:26 < kanzure> .title
11:26 < yoleaux> #4753 (IRC messages silently truncated to first ~500 characters) – Pidgin
11:27 < FourFire> escapist, Your messages are ending at 500 letters so we can only see some of what you are saying
11:27 < FourFire> from your end it looks like your messages are getting sent, but they aren't look at the logs to see where they cutoff
11:27 < escapist> ok, now i understand.
11:27 < delinquentme> http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nmeth.2938.html
11:27 < kanzure> .title
11:27 < yoleaux> Bone marrow–on–a–chip replicates hematopoietic niche physiology in vitro
11:27 < kanzure> why does it have to be a chip if it's in vitro
11:28 < FourFire> I think there's a page similar to a jargon file on the wiki
11:28 < delinquentme> idk, just cant explain it
11:28 < escapist> ok, where?
11:30 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=f48e23fe Bryan Bishop: also grab the reprap.org wiki >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/wikis/
11:37 < escapist> I am going to make the collection of information i need now, wjen i understand the most and send it to you guys
11:40 < escapist> What format you think is the best a latex document?
11:42 < kanzure> you can add latex files to the wiki by following the instructions on the front page
11:43 < escapist> good idea?
11:44 < escapist> you mean oushing up via git?
11:46 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:47 < kanzure> you can edit the wiki over http or via git, i don't care
11:47 < escapist> i do not thik this wise, because i am not a native speaker and i do not belive in my english that much
11:47 < kanzure> then write in your native language
11:47 < kanzure> who cares
11:47 < escapist> ok,
11:47 < escapist> :-)
11:50 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
11:50 < escapist> Can tell me the most important subtopics of transhumanism in your opinion
11:50 < kanzure> can you explain how the links i provided did not do that
11:51 -!- Burnin8 [~Burn@pool-173-66-15-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:51 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration has an entire list about that... i think you haven't actually looked.
11:52 < escapist> what is nootropics?
11:52 < kanzure> .d nootropics
11:52 < yoleaux> nootropic (/ˌnəʊəˈtrəʊpɪk, -ˈtrɒpɪk/): adj. (Of a drug) used to enhance memory or other cognitive functions; n. A nootropic drug — http://is.gd/P6SXAq
11:52 < kanzure> .ety nootropic
11:52 < yoleaux> Sorry, I couldn't find the etymology of that.
11:54 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:54 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-173-66-15-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
11:56 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: streety
12:04 -!- escapist [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
12:07 -!- Netsplit over, joins: streety
12:21 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: streety
12:32 -!- Netsplit over, joins: streety
12:37 -!- Guest79571 [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:37 -!- Guest79571 [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:43 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: streety
12:44 -!- sheena1 [~home@67.201.165.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
12:44 -!- sheena [~home@67.201.165.63] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:54 -!- Netsplit over, joins: streety
13:06 -!- pyotra [~asakharov@24.60.79.55] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:10 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: streety
13:26 -!- Netsplit over, joins: streety
13:27 -!- Burnin8 is now known as Burninate
13:32 -!- apex [~tpi@c-107-4-148-59.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
13:33 -!- nmz787 [~nmz787@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:34 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:36 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
13:37 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
13:41 -!- nmz787 [~nmz787@131.252.130.248] has quit [Quit: leaving]
13:43 -!- nmz787 [~nmz787@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:08 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -]
14:19 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:50 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
14:54 < kanzure> fenn: i forget if you complained about https://github.com/jazzido/tabula yet
14:55 < kanzure> http://www.tagspaces.org/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7726359 shitty gui for tagging files
14:55 < kanzure> "Very nice, but a stopper for me is that if you have a pdf with the name "foobar.pdf" on your disk and tag it with TagSpaces with the tags Sciences, Thermodynamics you end up with a file "foobar[Sciences Thermodynamics].pdf". The tags are directly encoded into the file names."
15:01 < kanzure> http://www.raphkoster.com/2014/05/07/the-financial-future-of-game-developers/
15:02 < kanzure> wait, no, nevermind
15:02 < kanzure> i take it back
15:23 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@78.174.10.112] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:23 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@78.174.10.112] has quit [Changing host]
15:23 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:34 -!- kardan [~kardan@199.254.238.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
15:40 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:41 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:04 < catern> kanzure: why would he complain about tabula, looks handyt
16:04 < kanzure> iirc there's something they are lying about in their marketing materials
16:04 < kanzure> i just forget whta
16:04 < kanzure> *what
16:06 < kanzure> http://reprap.org/wiki/Metal_deposition_print_head
16:08 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:09 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=5462af1d Bryan Bishop: homecmos/semiconductor stuff >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/homecmos/wet-etch-recipes/
16:12 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:12 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has quit [Changing host]
16:12 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:12 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
16:13 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:14 < kanzure> oh man, 2007? http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=387459&cid=21680045
16:14 < kanzure> QuantumG: how the hell long have we known each other
16:20 < ebowden> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-007-5539-0_9#
16:33 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-173-66-15-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:33 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-173-66-15-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:36 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:38 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:46 < QuantumG> kanzure: for, like, ever
16:47 < QuantumG> 2007 I believe
16:47 < QuantumG> "Hey there. I was going to reply to your post via Slashdot, but decided
16:47 < QuantumG> a private response may be better."
16:47 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:48 < kanzure> okie dokie
16:54 < kanzure> "It's actually worse than that. I did my PhD in a lab that did brain computer interfaces as part of the same DARPA initiative. We were supposed to use the DEKA arm but they insisted on owning all IP to come out of the research, even if it had nothing to do with robotics. Obviously that didn't happen. DEKA is basically Intellectual Ventures with better PR."
16:59 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
17:22 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:44 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:44 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:55 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-198-71-179.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:56 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-81-213-124.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:00 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
18:05 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
18:19 < fenn> i hear you can't even buy the iBot anymore? unless it's for non-medical purposes. what's up with that
18:19 < fenn> FDA--
18:23 < fenn> Huey 091 Foundation is working to restart the manufacture of the iBOT Mobility System, one of the most advanced mobility devices yet developed.
18:23 < fenn> Our goal is to employ a workforce of military veterans to build, distribute and maintain new iBOTS.
18:23 < kanzure> ooh, yeah i wonder if veterans can beat the fda
18:23 < kanzure> too bad they're all dead from their lack of medical benefits
18:23 < fenn> lol the home front hasn't been going so well so far
18:24 < kanzure> fucked either way to tuesday
18:25 < fenn> i'd like to get some veterans, put em to work
18:25 < fenn> the more bitter the better
18:26 < fenn> you see i'm a gourmet
18:26 < fenn> .d gourmand
18:26 < yoleaux> gourmand (/ˈgʊəmənd, ˈgɔː-/): n. A person who enjoys eating and often eats too much — http://is.gd/pV9cs7
18:27 < kanzure> "veterans against the fda", who could object
18:27 < fenn> the people who are currently screwing them?
18:27 < kanzure> "adorable little girls with cancer against the fda"?
18:27 < fenn> oh, cancer kids get whatever they want
18:28 < kanzure> spoiled brats
18:28 < fenn> "make a wish foundation - all medicine is now free, you're welcome"
18:28 < kanzure> "my wish is for the fda to stop fucking me over"
18:28 < fenn> i wonder how shielded the cancer kids are from all the administrative bullshit
18:29 < kanzure> better than parading around as batman for a day, do some real hero work kid
18:29 < fenn> yeah save SF from evil Genentech :P
18:30 < fenn> why is it we have the segway, an essentially useless technology, but not the ibot, a huge glaring gap in capability
18:32 < kanzure> why do hot dogs come in packages of 12, but buns in packages of 8?
18:32 < kanzure> when you can answer my question, i will answer yours
18:33 < fenn> "Because of certain FDA certifications / ratings relating to safety, we cannot sell or distribute the iBOT unless you have a prescription and undergo user training. We really wish we could sell them to roboticists, but unfortunately, that would result in loosing the very costly certification." the truth is exposed! roboticists are to blame, obviously
18:33 < kanzure> a prescription? really?
18:34 < kanzure> all that egalitarian transhumanist bullshit should have been directed at that fucking racket, not at me
18:34 < fenn> kanzure: because hot dogs are foot long and buns are 8 inches, the lineal quantities match
18:34 < kanzure> fucking james hughes
18:34 < kanzure> i lied i just wanted a hot dog
18:34 < fenn> james hughes what
18:34 < kanzure> the fucking "everyone who doesn't believe in democratic transhumanist egaltarianism bullshit is a hyperterrorist" wta person
18:35 < kanzure> ieet?
18:35 < fenn> oh like 'bomb the brown people with love' sort of stuff
18:35 < kanzure> "Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies"
18:35 < kanzure> http://ieet.org/index.php/ieet/bio/hughes
18:35 < fenn> yeah i've read some of their stuff
18:35 < fenn> it can be interesting
18:35 < kanzure> well, they should be arguing against prescriptions, not against me
18:36 < fenn> why are they arguing against you? i'm confused
18:36 < kanzure> because i had a dissenting opinion ("instead of making fake magazines and terrible conferences, what if we built hardware that did things?")
18:36 < fenn> is it just a "so vicious because the stakes are so low" situation?
18:36 < kanzure> oh definitely
18:37 < fenn> "What will jail terms be like when humans can live for centuries?" simple, they'll be the same as they always were, but you'll be denied the "medically unnecessary" life extension treatments because death is not defined as a disease by the government
18:38 < kanzure> they are also some of the "but what about the gap between rich/poor" morons
18:38 < kanzure> your rich/poor gap doesn't matter if you can't get them cheap equipment anyway
18:39 < fenn> why aren't there any vigilante international organizations of dudes with tanks
18:39 < kanzure> they are called pirates and they live in the ocean
18:39 < kanzure> they use something called the sea-tank
18:39 < fenn> pirates are just poor somalians apparently
18:40 < kanzure> are there machine shops on us navy carrier vessels?
18:40 < kanzure> and are they stable
18:40 < fenn> yes, lots of them
18:40 < fenn> i dunno what you mean stable, an aircraft carrier has a pretty low natural frequency
18:40 < kanzure> uh how low?
18:40 < fenn> i have no idea. 0.01 hertz how's that
18:40 < kanzure> huh.
18:41 < fenn> .wa natural frequency of an aircraft carrier
18:41 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result!
18:41 < fenn> .wa length of an aircraft carrier?
18:41 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result!
18:41 < fenn> useless!
18:41 < fenn> do they even look at the failed queries
18:42 < kanzure> .wa wolfram alpha query failure rate
18:42 < yoleaux> kanzure: Sorry, no result!
18:42 < kanzure> .wa calibrate
18:42 < fenn> .wa what can you do
18:42 < yoleaux> How can you help me?: Response: I can help you to compute.
18:42 < yoleaux> Kalibrate Technologies (KLBT): Recent returns: day: month: YTD: year: 5 year; -0.84%: -8.49%: +2.6%: |
18:44 < fenn> whatever happened with mike treder?
18:44 < kanzure> last mentioned 2012-03-18 by tim schmidt
18:45 < fenn> Detroit police: Missing New York man crossed into Canada ...
18:46 < kanzure> abducted by secret transhumanist organization known as hplusroadmap
18:46 < fenn> lol
18:46 < fenn> our detroit international time travel smuggling operation
18:48 < kanzure> it's a new department.
18:50 < fenn> oh i see what actually happened now, it's all explained on his blog: http://miketreder.blogspot.com/
18:52 < kanzure> makes sense to me
18:56 < fenn> lol "atlas shrugged" no wonder amtrak failed, we don't have reardon metal because the center for responsible nanotechnology is understaffed
18:57 < kanzure> or because they are too busy writing ethics pamphlets
18:58 < fenn> you know using yoleaux from the command line is like 5 times faster than googling in a web browser
18:58 < fenn> i guess you could call the services directly from a python script
18:58 < kanzure> just because you can transfer ethics doesn't mean you can beat them into building shit
18:59 < kanzure> building things ins't like typing in a google query
18:59 < kanzure> ethics also isn't
18:59 < kanzure> i don't understand your analogy
18:59 < fenn> there was no analogy
18:59 < kanzure> oh good
18:59 < fenn> i was looking up names of characters from atlas shrugged
19:00 < kanzure> actually, how long does it take to write an ethics pamphlet anyway
19:00 < kanzure> what are they doing with the other 300 days of their cow-sphere-year
19:00 < fenn> how long is a piece of string
19:00 < kanzure> .wa length of 1 string
19:00 < yoleaux> kanzure: Sorry, no result!
19:00 < kanzure> you heard the man
19:01 < fenn> .wa 1/0
19:01 < yoleaux> 1/0: infinity^~
19:01 < fenn> whaaat
19:01 < fenn> .wa freezing point of cat urine
19:01 < yoleaux> elements: melting point: domestic cat: daily urine production: elements: melting point: 940°C (degrees Celsius); domestic cat: daily urine production: (100 to 200) cm³/day (cubic centimeters per day);
19:01 < kanzure> why did feynman pick wolfram?
19:02 < fenn> i'm not sure what you're referring to
19:02 < kanzure> well, clearly "infinity^~" is what side of the debate wolfram falls on
19:02 < kanzure> and who is wolfram to say
19:02 < kanzure> and then i was wondering why feynman picked him
19:02 < kanzure> out of everyone else he had pestering him
19:02 < kanzure> like, why the fuck send this guy to space?
19:02 < fenn> is that like a snark mark? like "hey we know it's supposed to be undefined but we're going to say infinity ha ha"
19:03 < kanzure> most likely not
19:03 < fenn> .wa ^~
19:03 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result!
19:03 < fenn> .wa ~
19:03 < yoleaux> ~ (character): Visual form: http://is.gd/od1wG2; Name: tilde; Encodings: ASCII: 126 (hex: 7e: octal: 176: binary: 01111110); Unicode: U+007E (decimal: 126); HTML: ~; Computer keyboards containing "~": US English keyboard: United Kingdom keyboard: Chinese ChaJei keyboard: Japanese keyboard: Arabic (101) keyboard: Portuguese Brazilian abnt keyboard; Unicode classification: symbol > math
19:03 < kanzure> hmm where is the evidence that wolfram was going to be on apollo 17
19:04 < kanzure> wait, 17 is wrong
19:04 < fenn> wait what? wolfram in space? i have no idea what you're talking about, perhaps you inadvertently passed through a time portal
19:04 < kanzure> there was this whole thing
19:04 < kanzure> an entire whole thing where feynman was tutoring just one person
19:04 < kanzure> and it was wolfram
19:04 < kanzure> and something about the brightest scientist going to spaaaace
19:04 < kanzure> i swear this wasn't a fanfic
19:05 < kanzure> the guy brags about everything, this has to be somewhere
19:06 < fenn> i'd think even if it were a hoax/satire it would be findable
19:08 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.24.244] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:09 < fenn> the only physicists/mathematician astronauts i see are ronald macnair and story musgrave (much more cosmonauts probably)
19:09 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-48-162-236.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:10 < kanzure> well, i remember feynman's name being mentioned in the same blurb
19:10 < kanzure> and it was a cancelled mission
19:10 < eudoxia> on the subject of wolfram, here's some smug lisp-related bullshit http://www.ymeme.com/why-wolfram-%28mathematica%29-did-not-use-lisp.html
19:10 < fenn> young Wolfram wrote Feynman a rant letter talking about the surplus of "stupid fools" in the world who are dragging down his great genius, something surely Feynman could relate to. In a curt and unfriendly response Feynman diplomatically points out that Wolfram is an idiot who hates people.
19:11 < fenn> http://www.lettersofnote.com/2010/06/you-dont-understand-ordinary-people.html
19:11 < kanzure> nice :)
19:11 < kanzure> that is great
19:11 < eudoxia> feynman was such a bro, and a lisper too
19:12 < fenn> a "bro"
19:12 < fenn> why would you even say that
19:12 < kanzure> i'm not sure you have much recourse after being called a hateful idiot by feynman
19:12 < kanzure> what else is there in life after this
19:12 < fenn> "Find a way to do your research with as little contact with non-technical people as possible, with one exception, fall madly in love! That is my advice, my friend.
19:13 < kanzure> iirc feynman didn't exactly have sane views on relationsihps
19:13 < kanzure> but whatever
19:13 < fenn> what's a sane view on relationships
19:14 < kanzure> it's okay to know non-technical people
19:14 < fenn> it made sense in the context of the letter
19:14 < kanzure> well, ok
19:15 < kanzure> .title http://tech.mit.edu/V119/N10/col10lipman.10c.html
19:15 < yoleaux> Finding the Real Feynman
19:15 < kanzure> hah " His fellow physicist Murray Gell-Mann grumbled that he “spent a great deal of time and energy generating anecdotes about himself,”"
19:15 < kanzure> i bet that one's made up by him too
19:19 < QuantumG> does anyone you know say "legend" when they mean caption?
19:20 < kanzure> they sometimes mean "table next to a graph"
19:20 < fenn> a legend is not the same thing as a caption
19:20 < fenn> but they are both explanatory text for a graphic
19:20 < QuantumG> "When including a figure, do not forget to add a succinct legend mentioning exercise number, question number and type of plot."
19:21 < fenn> yeah that should be caption
19:21 < QuantumG> everyone's told her that "legend" is the wrong word, she continues to use the word incorrectly.
19:21 < FourFire> legend is like instructions on how to use a map
19:22 < kanzure> have you considered quitting
19:22 < QuantumG> nah
19:22 < fenn> a legend is metadata about the symbols in the graphic or descriptions of what the symbols mean
19:22 < kanzure> fenn: hm, so, maybe the first step is affirming whether or not feynman eventually took wolfram up
19:22 < kanzure> s/affirming/confirming
19:22 < fenn> a caption is metadata about the graphic itself, explaining what the graphic overall means
19:23 < eudoxia> fenn: that's usually called a reference (metadata about symbols...)
19:23 < eudoxia> the word legend is the default in the spanish versions of Microsoft Office when creating plots and shit
19:23 < kanzure> are you really using spanish microsoft office?
19:24 < eudoxia> haha no
19:24 < eudoxia> but i used it in the past
19:24 < eudoxia> when i was a kid
19:24 < eudoxia> who didn't know better
19:24 < eudoxia> also at school
19:24 < fenn> "an inscription motto or title placed on a shield or beneath an engraving or illustration." uh okay
19:24 < fenn> so if you want to call it a legend, you have to include the shield and heraldry
19:25 < QuantumG> heh
19:27 < fenn> "Legend" implies that its entries are generics, as with terrain types on a map, while "key" implies that its entries are specific, as with one symbol designating the Museum of Natural History, another the Metropolitan Museum of Art, etc.
19:28 < fenn> oh here we go
19:28 < fenn> etymology time
19:28 < fenn> A "Caption" used to be a box you put at the top of a map, hence the "Cap" part. The "Legend" is the explanatory information within a Caption that allows you to understand how to use the map, especially the Keys. It is a syllogistic synopsis, a short story if you will. The "Keys" are the symbols and numbers within the Caption that the Legend explains.
19:55 < kanzure> hmm so whaqt if the nasa/wolfram thing is fake
19:55 < kanzure> where did i get it from, then?
19:56 < eudoxia> sometimes you think you saw something on the internet and swear it up and down
19:56 < eudoxia> and then you can't find it and you're like "did i just make this up?"
19:57 < fenn> this is why i went with the time portal hypothesis
19:57 < kanzure> are you just repeating what i say back to me
19:58 < fenn> For a long time, Avdeyev held the record for time dilation experienced by a human being. n his 747 days aboard Mir, cumulative across three missions, he went approximately 27,360 km/h and thus aged roughly 0.02 seconds (20 milliseconds) less than an Earthbound person would have, which is considerably more than any other human being, except Sergei Krikalev.
19:58 < fenn> 20 milliseconds is more than i would have expected
19:58 < kanzure> yeah but what about computer internet radiation particles, surely those have some modifying effect
19:59 < fenn> normally quantum bogon flux from chronic suit exposure leads to the forgetting of history
20:00 < fenn> as demonstrated by the "quantum bogon bit erasure experiment"
20:00 < eudoxia> i wonder if the ability to google things in an instant is slowly destroying my memory
20:00 < kanzure> "We should also note Steward Brand's 1999 comment: the internet could “easily become the Legacy System from Hell that holds civilization hostage. The system doesn’t really work, it can’t be fixed, no one understands it, no one is in charge of it, it can’t be lived without, and it creates spontaneous time warps that fuck with all its users to create a twisted fucked up maze of human thought and history, and it gets worse every year.”"
20:00 < fenn> eudoxia: you and every tech writer trying to come up with an article by wednesday
20:00 < justanotheruser> If anyone has any criticisms of this pseudoFAQ I just made, let me know. bitcoin.it/wiki/altcoin
20:01 < kanzure> criticism 1: use urls
20:01 < justanotheruser> https://bitcoin.it/wiki/altcoin
20:01 < kanzure> auroracoin should be clarified to not be a government initiative
20:02 < justanotheruser> Sorry, I didn't add counterparty because I don't have a full understanding of it yet
20:02 < kanzure> counterparty is probably more like mastercoin than these
20:02 < kanzure> it's just OP_RETURN metadata stuff
20:02 < eudoxia> i don't really get it either but apparently i own 1% of kanzure or something
20:03 < kanzure> sure why not
20:03 < fenn> auroracoin: minted from the skin of crashed A-21 reconnaissance planes
20:04 < fenn> because where else can you find large quantites of a specific aged titanium alloy
20:05 < kanzure> justanotheruser: page looks okay, most of my battles these days are with people trying to apply blockchain to anything ("since it's popular, it must be a good idea in every situation!")
20:05 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@36.90-149-182.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:05 < kanzure> justanotheruser: i also think the "useful cryptocurrencies" section will end up being polarizing or subject of intense edit wars
20:05 < justanotheruser> kanzure: changed auroracoin. Also, I don't fully know how the client handles that metadata. It isn't just storing values.
20:06 < justanotheruser> kanzure: for the same reason I post my controversial opinions on other websites :)
20:06 < kanzure> counterparty runs a tiny client that just does json-rpc things against the local bitcoind server
20:06 < justanotheruser> kanzure: applying the block chain for bad reasons like what, voting?
20:07 < kanzure> today's example is "art": hashing a gif, and then trying to assert that this is DRM
20:07 < fenn> "SHA2 has had ASICs developed for it meaning there is a much smaller risk of centralization." should be "larger risk of centralization"?
20:07 < kanzure> and then putting the hash in the blockchain
20:07 < kanzure> and then claiming that it is smart property that knows its owner or some crap
20:07 < justanotheruser> fenn: no
20:07 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:07 < kanzure> smart property is also dumb; i can just strip the electronics from your "smart property" and then your blockchain data is lying
20:08 < justanotheruser> fenn: ASICs mean that it is much harder to optimize the algorithm to the point that it is easy to get 51%
20:08 < fenn> justanotheruser: are you trying to say that SHA2 is more easy to centralize or more difficult to centralize?
20:08 < justanotheruser> fenn: difficult
20:08 < kanzure> fenn: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf
20:09 < justanotheruser> Thanks kanzure was just about to link that
20:09 < kanzure> i take steroids to type faster
20:09 < justanotheruser> kanzure: you're right about the smart property, but there are legal incentives to not break in. It is like explaining the point of a deed
20:10 < kanzure> but why not just use a different database or some other solution
20:10 < justanotheruser> kanzure: because a central authority can't redesignate the property to someone else
20:10 < justanotheruser> But I guess the enforcers are a central authority...
20:11 < kanzure> property has centralized authority, PLUS other stuff like a physical presence that can be stolen, squatted, etc
20:11 < kanzure> cars can be carjacked
20:11 < kanzure> phones can be phonejacked
20:12 < QuantumG> perhaps the difference between ownership and possession is worth expounding.
20:12 < justanotheruser> kanzure: regarding art being hashed, why isn't it useful? It proves I made something and could be considered prior art if someone trays to patent my idea
20:12 < kanzure> there are certain guarantees that proof-of-work can provide, especially for electronically-origiating assets (like money, shares, bonds, etc.,), but non-electronically-originating assets.. i'm not so sure about yet.
20:12 < kanzure> technically the uspto does not actually respect prior art
20:12 < justanotheruser> Hmm
20:12 < eudoxia> nickcolor.pl is terrible
20:13 < justanotheruser> Ill remove it for now
20:13 < kanzure> timestamping a hash is an okay idea, but people have been proposing that forever (and i don't see why it should have anything to do with "DRM")
20:14 < kanzure> however, i'm willing to listen to proposals, i guess
20:14 < fenn> eudoxia: yeah it should color every letter differently :P
20:15 < justanotheruser> Well at the very least, it could be used to prove who plagerized who
20:15 < kanzure> first-to-file or first-to-invent
20:15 < kanzure> same problem
20:15 < fenn> justanotheruser: i think the confusion about alt hashing algorithms leading to more centralization/decentralization could be better explained in the article
20:16 < kanzure> read https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf
20:16 < justanotheruser> fenn: what isn't clear
20:16 < fenn> i'm saying i shouldn't have to read the pdf
20:16 < kanzure> the pdf is actually good :(
20:16 < justanotheruser> kanzure: he may understand, but the article may be confusing
20:16 < kanzure> is the wiki page supposed to replace the pdf?
20:16 < kanzure> the pdf is about asics, but your page was about altcoins
20:16 < fenn> "Changing the hashing algorithm is one of the most common and easiest changes you can make. This is why a majority of altcoins have a different hashing algorithm." this doesn't explain why the authors of altcoins have decided that changing the hashing algorithm was a good idea in the first place
20:17 < justanotheruser> kanzure: yeah, but if 2 or 3 sentences would make it more clear, I would prefer it be in the article
20:17 < fenn> it wasn't "to be easier to mine" it was "to make it harder to develop ASIC" from what i understand
20:17 < kanzure> andytoshi: ping, see fenn's comment
20:18 < fenn> ASIC is a rather centralized technology due to its dependency on multi-billion dollar circuit fabs
20:18 < fenn> (so is computers in general but meh)
20:18 < fenn> access to these fabs is not guaranteed by any means
20:19 < kanzure> grep fabs \#bitcoin-wizards.log
20:19 < fenn> i can easily see a future in which fabbing of bitcoin miner ASICs is illegal
20:19 * fenn reads the pdf now
20:20 < justanotheruser> fenn: would "Making mining 'easy' is done by making ASIC creation hard. If ASICs are hard to make, it will be profitable to CPU mine for much longer" be OK?
20:22 < justanotheruser> Or does that not lead one to the conclusion that ASIC-hardness/CPU-easyness leads to centralization
20:23 < fenn> maybe you should define what "centralization" means too
20:24 < justanotheruser> fenn: is " When a mining algorithm is difficult to make ASICs for, you risk a group creating ASICs and monopolizing the market" not good enough?
20:27 < fenn> so there's a difference between "leads to centralization" and "risk of leading to centralization"
20:28 < fenn> please be patient with me, my brain is not working right today
20:28 < justanotheruser> fenn: no, the article should be understandable to everyone, it is appreciatex
20:30 < justanotheruser> There is a risk of centralization, but I think I cover that they can avoid that centralization implicitly " If these cryptocurrencies do have a healthy number of companies producing ASICs and have avoided centralization, they still have algorithms that take longer to verify than SHA2 in use."
20:31 < fenn> maybe it should be organized like this: "Different hashing algorithm: alt coins have chosen different hashing algorithms. (list of algorithms and coins.) the hashing algorithm used for bitcoin is SHA2. discussion of strengths and weaknesses of SHA2. discussion of strengths and weaknesses of alt algorithms. comparison of sha2 and alt algorithms.
20:31 < fenn> then you can talk about asics and centralization and whether asic leads to centralization or decentralization]
20:32 < kanzure> at-home cmos fabrication, if it received a burst of bitcoin funding, might be able to produce simple enough instructions that non-billion-dollar foundries could be established by individuals who want to make not-quite-cutting-edge asics
20:32 < fenn> as it is, you're starting with the conclusion "asic leads to decentralization" and shitting all over alt currencies without explaining why exactly
20:32 < justanotheruser> fenn: in general, an alt algorithm is not good if it has the ASIC hurdle, so I grouped all non-sha2 algos together
20:32 < fenn> you need to explain why it's not good to make it hard to develop an asic
20:33 < kanzure> i suspect that the altcoin "we need to keep cpu mining as long as possible" reasoning might just be whatever someone came up with, instead of actually thinking through whether or not cpu-only mining is rational
20:33 < justanotheruser> fenn: so the paragraph directly under the list should go up?
20:33 < justanotheruser> kanzure: I suspect CPU mining is a good feature to advertise, so if will help their pump and dump
20:34 < fenn> what's to stop a government from just making 1 billion dollars worth of asics and blowing everyone out of the water?
20:34 < justanotheruser> fenn: only the fact that it would cost $1bn
20:34 < fenn> but there is already way more than $1b in existing computer hardware available to dedicate to bitcoin
20:34 < kanzure> and by the time the government is organized enough in that fashion, it will cost $100 billion by that time
20:35 < kanzure> there's not $1B of government sha256 hardware
20:35 < justanotheruser> fenn: no, a handful of ASICs would probably beat the worlds computing hardware
20:35 < kanzure> is there a chart or graph that compares the bitcoin hashrate against the other shitty supercomputers?
20:35 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-48-162-236.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:36 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-53-124-39.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:36 < fenn> sorry, "more than $1b in existing computer hardware available to dedicate to ALTcoin"
20:36 < justanotheruser> kanzure: Bitcoin network: 0flops/s. Fastest computers in the world:terraflops/s
20:36 < fenn> i'm not talking about supercomputers either
20:36 < justanotheruser> Tough to compare
20:36 < kanzure> justanotheruser: good point
20:37 < justanotheruser> fenn: I think so
20:37 < kanzure> justanotheruser: maybe by hypothetical number of transistors per network
20:37 < justanotheruser> kanzure: or joules
20:37 < fenn> we go back to proof of work. ASIC is a "hack" around the proof of work because there's not as much "work"
20:37 < justanotheruser> fenn: sure
20:37 < kanzure> i dunno about that 'hack' explanation
20:38 < kanzure> isn't it something more like: it's computing closer to the thermodynamic limit
20:38 < fenn> assuming the thermodynamic limit means anything
20:38 < justanotheruser> kanzure: yeah, andytoshis paper puts it better than I ever could
20:38 < kanzure> fenn: minimum energy requirement per computation
20:38 < justanotheruser> fenn: as the paper explains, entropy is the scarcest resource in the universe
20:40 * justanotheruser sighs
20:40 < kanzure> what's wrong?
20:40 < justanotheruser> I miss diablo or whatever your stalkers name is
20:40 < kanzure> dantespeaks?
20:40 < justanotheruser> Yes
20:40 < kanzure> hah
20:40 < kanzure> why?
20:41 < justanotheruser> What he said was funny
20:41 < kanzure> yes but unfortunately he was also a threatening stalker
20:41 < kanzure> so, you know, the universe balances out
20:41 < justanotheruser> Of course I'm not on the receiving end of the stalking
20:42 < justanotheruser> Oh, I didn't know he was threatening.
20:42 < kanzure> the dude thinks i can bring his mother back from the dead
20:42 < kanzure> and that i'm his ticket into the united states
20:42 < justanotheruser> I just thought things like him thinking he could convince you to give him hundreds of thousands of dollars
20:42 < justanotheruser> Were funny
20:42 * fenn looks around, sees lots of atoms flying around unpredictably
20:43 < justanotheruser> Maybe you could use science to cure his delusions
20:43 < fenn> i think you're talking about bit erasure generating heat in non-reversible computation, but i'm not sure
20:43 < kanzure> justanotheruser: well if you want more fodder, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/juls3.txt
20:44 < kanzure> 20:10 wow you treat me like some kind of criminal.
20:45 < justanotheruser> 580 messages vs 38
20:45 < eudoxia> kanzure: so do you have the part of the logs where he actually mentions the word 'mother'
20:45 < eudoxia> i went through ten pages of google search results on these logs and couldn't fine one
20:45 < kanzure> justanotheruser: he uses multiple user names
20:46 < kanzure> eudoxia: i suppose i could dig those up
20:46 < justanotheruser> Lol nvm, much worse ratio
20:46 < kanzure> eudoxia: (it was not in public)
20:46 < eudoxia> oh cool
20:48 * justanotheruser can't tell if he's purposely lying or actually believes himself
20:48 < kanzure> that's quite a series of lies to keep up
20:48 < fenn> "ASICs are good, because heat dissipation" what!!
20:48 < kanzure> the reason i keep recognizing him when he coms in here is because he slips up
20:48 < kanzure> *comes
20:48 < fenn> do you know how many GW of heat a centralized nuclear reactor dissipates
20:49 < justanotheruser> kanzure: do you think he's among us now
20:49 < kanzure> i am suspicious of entelchyios
20:49 < kanzure> but he might just be an idiot
20:49 < kanzure> or ebowden
20:50 < juri_> ebowden is safe
20:50 < kanzure> :shifty eyes:
20:50 < juri_> i brought him.
20:50 < ebowden> What might I be?
20:50 < fenn> definitely a CIA mole
20:50 < juri_> :P
20:50 < justanotheruser> fenn: yeah, you need coolness for your ASIC to not overheat. That is why there is the opposite of economies of scale
20:50 < kanzure> oh good, i always wanted a cia mole to play with
20:50 < fenn> lol actually i'm the mostly likely candidate for CIA mole
20:51 < kanzure> the conspiracy nut? yeah..
20:51 * justanotheruser is a FDA mole
20:51 < ebowden> LOL
20:51 < kanzure> uh oh
20:51 < fenn> justanotheruser: that's bad logic
20:51 < ebowden> The FDA is a bit understaffed for that.
20:51 < fenn> justanotheruser: and it ignores the reality of HVAC engineering
20:51 < kanzure> yeah, they have to monitor basically everything
20:51 < justanotheruser> fenn: why?
20:51 < kanzure> no way they have enough staff
20:52 < fenn> justanotheruser: ok why do we still use nuclear power instead of windmills and solar
20:52 < justanotheruser> fenn: because it is more effecient
20:52 < fenn> but most people would rather have windmills and solar
20:53 < justanotheruser> fenn: because they falsely believe there is less risk?
20:53 < fenn> why is it more efficient to mine uranium, purify it, train people in esoteric arts of nuclear physics, build big high security concrete facilities with lots of special pipes and stuff
20:54 < justanotheruser> Because of the amount of energy produced through fission? I don't see how this is related
20:54 < fenn> also you can't put a nuclear reactor just anywhere, usually it needs to be near a river
20:54 < eudoxia> solar is better, eleitl said so, that settles it
20:54 * eudoxia wins first prize in the transhumanism science fair
20:54 < kanzure> first prize is a kickban
20:54 < justanotheruser> fenn: but you can put an ASIC anywhere with (preferably cheap) electricity
20:55 < fenn> your "ASICs are good because heat dissipation" is almost identical to the nuclear/solar fight
20:55 < eudoxia> :(
20:55 < justanotheruser> fenn: please concretely explain what your concern is
20:55 < fenn> my concern is you've jumped to conclusion about hashing algorithms based on some physics/engineering argument that doesn't make sense
20:56 < fenn> i'm not saying that you're right or wrong, just that the argument doesn't work
20:56 < justanotheruser> fenn: we want the max number of hashes per joule, whats wrong with that?
20:56 < justanotheruser> If you are far from the max, you risk someone optimizing and 51% attacking.
20:57 < fenn> joules are not equally distributed
20:58 < justanotheruser> Nope, they're not. those in cold area will use those joules to heat their home
20:58 < justanotheruser> *areas
20:59 < fenn> joules are easy to centralize. see the past 8 decades of war
20:59 < fenn> the shah/iran thing was all about oil (joules)
20:59 < justanotheruser> fenn: what is your concern with centralized power production and bitcoin?
20:59 < fenn> the US/soviet thing was all about nuclear (joules)
21:00 < fenn> why do you think relying on centralized fabs and centralized power production somehow leads to decentralization?
21:01 < justanotheruser> fenn: even in altcoins, the fabs and power are centralized
21:01 < cluckj> I wish I were a mole; I'd be getting paid for this
21:01 < fenn> here's an idea: an algorithm that is extremely vulnerable to viruses would be difficult to centralize because mass production is vulnerable to virus
21:01 < kanzure> what happened to that "natural research observation" stipend
21:02 < fenn> er, diversity protects against virus i mean
21:02 * fenn reads the rest of the pdf
21:02 < cluckj> it doesn't last forever
21:03 < kanzure> grad school? sure it does
21:03 < kanzure> just ask gradstudentbot
21:03 < kanzure> he's been here since forever
21:03 * kanzure wonders where gradstudentbot went
21:03 < cluckj> he graduated, duh
21:03 < kanzure> not for long
21:04 < justanotheruser> fenn: not sure what you mean. People would just make an ASIC that can't have a virus
21:04 < fenn> virus is used in the general sense, code that fucks up your system
21:05 < fenn> preferably self replicating information
21:05 -!- rk[1] [~rak@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:05 -!- echo[1] [~echo1]@stallman.cse.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:05 < kanzure> eudoxia: i'll dig up the logs later. good night.
21:05 -!- pyotra [~asakharov@24.60.79.55] has quit [Quit: quit]
21:05 < ebowden> Out of curiosity, has this channel developed any pharmaceuticals yet?
21:05 < ebowden> Night kanzure.
21:06 < justanotheruser> There isn't really a trust less "proof of fucked up system". People would just pretend to have a fucked up system
21:06 < fenn> no, the virus actually fucks up your system
21:06 < fenn> in order to generate proof of work, you have to have a non-fucked system
21:07 < justanotheruser> fenn: oh.
21:07 < justanotheruser> Then people would just protect themselves.
21:07 < justanotheruser> Which would probably be trivial
21:07 < fenn> the bitcoin algorithm requires you to be connected to a network and perform a defined series of tasks on the network data, so there's only so much isolation you can do
21:08 < ebowden> Well, by that I mean, what stuff have people here developed?
21:08 < fenn> ebowden: we are useless wankers, what do you want
21:08 < justanotheruser> fenn: it requires you to send a well defined set of messages and only execute sand boxed transaction scripts
21:08 < ebowden> I was just curious.
21:08 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:08 < justanotheruser> The virus or whatever would be sandboxed
21:09 < ebowden> Some people here seem terrified of the FDA.
21:09 < eudoxia> good night kanzure
21:09 < fenn> ok but it would still break the system running in the sandbox (by design)
21:09 < justanotheruser> If you want to see viruses executed by the block chain, wait for etherum :)
21:09 < fenn> ebowden: not terrified, just frustrated
21:10 < ebowden> Well, I can understand that.
21:10 < justanotheruser> fenn: seems like a bad design. How can a transaction evaluate to true if it crashes the sandbox
21:10 < ebowden> But would the FDA, providing they had the resources, actually have a reason to put a mole in here?
21:11 < justanotheruser> ebowden: yes. They sent me here to monitor Mr. Bishop
21:11 < cluckj> lol
21:11 < ebowden> LOL
21:11 < ebowden> Who's Mr. Bishop?
21:12 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood]
21:12 < fenn> who is john galt
21:12 < justanotheruser> ebowden: if you didnt know, why did you LOL
21:12 < ebowden> The send you in to monitor part.
21:12 < ebowden> *sent
21:12 < justanotheruser> ebowden: anyways, he is the single biggest threat to the FDA
21:12 < ebowden> Oh?
21:12 < cluckj> lol
21:12 < ebowden> Are you actually serious?
21:13 < justanotheruser> ebowden: yes.
21:13 < fenn> a man out of time, what dark mysteries lurk in his twisted mind
21:13 < cluckj> super serious
21:13 < justanotheruser> I have seen him offer medical advice on at least 27 different occasions.
21:13 < cluckj> he does it almost as much as I do
21:13 < ebowden> What kind of medical advice?
21:14 < fenn> will we learn the truth of the Feynman-Wolfram-Sarumpaet graph traversal vehicle?
21:14 < ebowden> And what about him makes him such a threat to the FDA?
21:14 < justanotheruser> ebowden: It doesn't matter. Any medical advice is a risk to our citizens health.
21:14 < eudoxia> didn't he once offer to install neuroimplants into anyone who showed up at his door
21:14 < ebowden> LOL
21:15 < cluckj> bad medical advice, or he wouldn't be a threat
21:15 < fenn> once he reanimated a dog via SSH with nothing but a hacked robot arm and a hospital crash cart
21:16 < justanotheruser> fenn: could we discuss this further in PM? Also, do you have a phone number I can contact you at?
21:16 < fenn> no, i don't like talking on phones
21:16 < fenn> do you want a more secure comm channel?
21:17 < andytoshi> kanzure, fenn: i have two articles, the ASIC one and the alts one, both are supposed to be on the wiki and the wiki copies are supposed to supercede the PDFs (because on #bitcoin nobody trusts pdfs) but that isn't how it worked out, i never remember the wiki links and they're harder for me to keep up to date anyway..
21:17 < andytoshi> one sec, i'm reading the scrollback now..
21:17 < justanotheruser> fenn: If Mr. Bishop is attempting to reanimate dogs, we need to investigate. Your cooperation would be much appreciated.
21:18 < fenn> oh i see. yes have the registered mail sent right over with the pre-prepared witness testimony and signature field clearly labeled
21:18 < cluckj> also your social security number
21:18 < fenn> also your bitcoin transaction number
21:18 < justanotheruser> fenn: are you being a wise guy?
21:19 < cluckj> also ya nan
21:19 < fenn> ... not a number?
21:19 < andytoshi> fenn: i am not going to do a list of PoW algos and coins, there is only one (scrypt) besides SHA2 which is used in an even remotely serious coin, and i talked about that one
21:20 -!- entelechy [~elysium@181.194.131.115] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:20 < andytoshi> i'm not going to discuss altcoins as though they are worth considering, they are crank crypto and all i intended to do there is dismantle the common claims about PoW algos that they make
21:20 < fenn> you can't debunk things by starting with the conclusion, it just "proves" that you don't like them
21:21 < justanotheruser> fenn: if it will make you cooperate, my bitcoin txid is. 04ffff001d0104455468652054696d65732030332f4a616e2f32303039204368616e63656c6c6f72206f6e206272696e6b206f66207365636f6e64206261696c6f757420666f722062616e6b73
21:21 < andytoshi> fenn: "these aren't worth considering individually, so i will debunk the blanket claims made instead" is perfectly valid
21:22 < andytoshi> common blanket claims*
21:23 < juri_> gmv
21:23 < juri_> um...
21:23 < fenn> go back to sleep juri
21:23 < justanotheruser> andytoshi: hi how are you
21:23 < juri_> http://demo1.faikvm.com/trac/wiki/Incentivization
21:24 < andytoshi> fenn: in http://www.cypherpunks.to/faq/cyphernomicron/chapter5.html search for "I Have a New Idea for a Cipher", there is a good argument there for why cryptosystems are assumed broken by default
21:24 < juri_> please be gentle. i have RSI and can barely type.
21:24 < andytoshi> hi justanotheruser, i'm good but tired, it's 11:30 here and i'm off to bed soon
21:25 < andytoshi> juri_: you should switch to dvorak
21:25 < juri_> i have.
21:26 < andytoshi> juri_: a CPU is way way way way way way way way more complicated than an ASIC, you can audit an asic design but no chance for a CPU
21:28 < fenn> hmm.. i read some scifi story where the FTL drive ran on prime numbers.. they got stuck somewhere because someone had "double spent" the prime number they were counting on to get back, and the ship mathematician had to come up with a new algorithm for discovering primes or die of starvation... it was a metaphor for peak oil or something
21:29 < andytoshi> in most cases i'd agree that free software is a good end in itself, in this case i think what we really want is maximum auditability (and not necessarily ease of modifaction)
21:29 < fenn> it wasn't a monetary system, somehow the universe knew directly about prime numbers
21:29 < andytoshi> so you want a design which leads to simple hardware rather than general-purpose hardware
21:30 < andytoshi> that's a cool idea fenn, luckily our physics seem to have simpler laws than that
21:30 < andytoshi> though who knows, maybe we can label everett branches in some way so the prime ones are happier..
21:31 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:35 < fenn> "mine the primes" by julian todd: http://web.archive.org/web/20120312182345/http://www.freesteel.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Mine_the_Primes
21:35 < andytoshi> super, it's short
21:36 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:36 < fenn> julian is interesting to me personally because he has an insider's view of programming commercial CAM software algorithms, for doing path planning of machine tool cutters
21:37 < fenn> he talks quite a bit about the pros/cons of different strategies from a position of experience
21:38 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
21:39 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-53-124-39.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving]
21:39 < fenn> juri_: do you know about http://plover.stenoknight.com
21:41 < kanzure> too bad none of the keyboards i keep buying have n-key rollover
21:41 < juri_> neat.
21:41 < fenn> i think keyboards is the wrong way to go
21:41 < juri_> thanks.
21:42 < fenn> i mean, if you're going to build a chording system, it should map to your hands better than some rectangular plane grid
21:42 < fenn> at that point you might as well just use a microcontroller
21:42 < kanzure> show me a chording system that has higher wpm and i'll look at it
21:43 < kanzure> otherwise i reserve the right to continue to be bored
21:43 < fenn> i'm talking about the hardware, not the mapping
21:43 < fenn> uh. glug.
21:43 < kanzure> mapping doesn't determine wpm
21:43 < fenn> yes it does
21:43 < juri_> fenn: i'll accept help...
21:43 < fenn> see huffman coding theory etc
21:43 < kanzure> that's like claiming dvorak should cause me to type at 1/100th the speed, which is wrong
21:43 < juri_> it does me.
21:44 < kanzure> you can't map anything to 6 keys
21:44 < fenn> yes dvorak causes me to type at 1/100 speed :P
21:44 < kanzure> if it requires more key presses you're going to go slower
21:44 < juri_> still learning...
21:44 < andytoshi> i switched to dvorak for comfort reasons, not speed. i do think it's faster now that i've learned it but i don't think speed and comfort necessarily go together
21:44 < fenn> kanzure: what are you talking about, they started out with ONE key using morse code
21:45 < kanzure> one key is going to go slower than qwerty man
21:45 < kanzure> no amount of mapping is going to fix your one key keyboard
21:45 < andytoshi> well, there was keypresses and pauses
21:45 < andytoshi> if 'pause' has meaning it's gonna be slow :)
21:45 < kanzure> i would like to assume that pause has meaning
21:45 < fenn> ok so where's your exosuit keyboard
21:46 < fenn> shift tilt-neck pinky toe sphincter
21:46 < kanzure> awaiting fda approval? i dunno
21:46 < kanzure> dingo: is your custom keyboard fda-approved by any chance?
21:46 < fenn> that's the shortcut for "send hate mail to FDA"
21:47 < kanzure> this has been enlightening
21:47 < kanzure> andytoshi: sup?
21:48 < andytoshi> kanzure: not much, headed to bed once i'm done this prime number story, going to a jam tomorrow afternoon
21:48 < andytoshi> you?
21:48 < kanzure> i forget, something about stratum protocol proxying stuff
21:49 < kanzure> "Why don't they make the whole damn plane out of the black box?"
21:50 < dingo> Its not custom, just expensive
21:51 < fenn> does bitcoin ASIC speedups decrease the wait time for transaction validation overall?
21:51 -!- rk[1] [~rak@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:51 < kanzure> a block is mined on average every 10 minutes
21:51 < kanzure> the difficulty is adjusted to target this time
21:51 < fenn> why 10 minutes?
21:51 < kanzure> ask satoshi?
21:52 < kanzure> ask andytoshi
21:52 < fenn> i mean it's a long time to wait in the checkout line when you just want a soda
21:53 < fenn> i guess that's what exchanges are for tho
21:53 < kanzure> some people don't wait for any confirmations, just basic validation (that the signature is right)
21:54 < kanzure> fenn, did you see that study about data mining the web to do search for evidence of time travelers?
21:54 < fenn> it was erased prior to publication
21:54 < fenn> i mean, uh, no?
21:55 < kanzure> me either
21:55 < fenn> what were we talking about again?
21:55 < andytoshi> if it is too small, the percentage of stale blocks (ones where the blockchain forks away from it) goes up, which is wasteful. and if it's really too small then the whole network doesn't hear of blocks in time, so it doesn't converge on a consensus
21:55 < andytoshi> also short blocktimes mean more bandwidth and more validation to do
21:55 < andytoshi> to the best of my knowledge 10 minutes was completely arbitrary, but those are the considerations
21:56 < fenn> so it's related to internet latency?
21:56 < fenn> but in some bizarre algorithmic way
21:57 < andytoshi> yeah, it tries to be higher than the worst-case latency
21:57 < andytoshi> given that bitcoin is a mesh p2p network and there might be crappy nodes out there
21:57 < fenn> i can make an arbitrarily crappy node
21:58 < fenn> even one that doesn't work at all :P
21:58 < andytoshi> fenn: re "mine the primes", according to http://homes.cerias.purdue.edu/~ssw/shortage.pdf there are like 10^150 512-bit primes. i can find one on my laptop in under a second i bet. so primes are not so scarce after all
21:58 < andytoshi> fenn: sure, but hopefully you aren't a nontrivial part of the hashrate with a node like that!
21:59 < fenn> andytoshi: in the story it talks about how they thought primes were plentiful but it turns out they weren't
21:59 < fenn> once you start blowing through huge numbers of something as a matter of course
21:59 < andytoshi> oh, alright, i'll keep reading then..
21:59 < fenn> i thought that was at the beginning
22:00 < andytoshi> oh, yeah, i've seen the part where they talk about it taking minutes, then hours
22:00 < andytoshi> and also the claim that it gets exponentially harder
22:00 < fenn> all the easily discovered primes were used for trivial crap
22:01 < andytoshi> i'd claim that you can't even iterate through all the 1024-bit primes in the lifetime of the universe, and they're all easily discovered
22:01 < andytoshi> also PRIMES is in P, there is a paper with that title, so it's not exponentian
22:01 < kanzure> is this flatland for number theorists
22:01 < kanzure> flatland for greg egan
22:01 < fenn> is "exponentian" a typo?
22:01 < andytoshi> yeah
22:01 < andytoshi> exponential
22:01 < andytoshi> damn dvorak..
22:02 < fenn> kanzure: it's peak oil for mathematicians, or something
22:03 < fenn> kanzure: you remember freesteel.co.uk right, that's the author
22:06 < fenn> "The human race had squandered all the easy to find numbers as fast as they could grab them" is the mcguffin description
22:07 < andytoshi> fwiw most peak oil claims are also scientifically illiterate ;)
22:08 < fenn> i'm not about to argue with an author about how his FTL drive doesn't make sense
22:08 < andytoshi> lol
22:08 < andytoshi> but it's so productive
22:09 < andytoshi> it's a good story anyway, i'm just being a dick whining about the density of primes
22:09 < fenn> oh speaking of FTL, this is thought provoking http://arxiv.org/abs/0708.0681
22:10 < fenn> two scientists say they have now tunneled photons "instantaneously" across a distance of up to one meter.
22:13 < fenn> it might just be a re-iteration of a common physics misunderstanding, but i'm not familiar enough to know the difference between "wave packet shaping" and "information transfer"
22:14 < fenn> ' If they can make photons go at whatever speed they say, isn't the flow of photons kinda what "light" is? .. So wouldn't it still be going at the speed of light not matter what "by definition"?
22:15 < fenn> 'see the quantum mechnaics text book by LeBellac, it has a fairly good explaination of quantum teleportaion and why it does not violate reletivity.' blah
22:15 < andytoshi> nah, the 'speed of light' refers to the c which appears in special relativity, which governs causal connectivity
22:16 < andytoshi> and iirc this is the same old media understanding, no FTL information transfer
22:17 < justanotheruser> How do I learn mechanics electricity and optics? Khan academy?
22:18 < fenn> wikipedia!
22:18 < fenn> for electricity i liked http://falstad.com/circuit/
22:19 < fenn> also you need to actually build stuff in the real world to ground your understanding
22:19 < justanotheruser> I'm talking physics, not electronics btw
22:20 < fenn> i regret to inform you that the real world is physics
22:21 < fenn> i guess you mean static analysis
22:21 < justanotheruser> fenn: yeah, and I'm talking about the physics behind electricity and magnetism
22:22 < fenn> as far as i can tell, nobody knows much about "what is electricty, really"
22:22 < fenn> i hear the feynman lectures are good
22:23 < justanotheruser> OK thanks
22:25 < fenn> 84MB one moment please
22:28 < fenn> justanotheruser: http://fennetic.net/irc/Feynman_Lectures_on_Physics_Volumes_1_2_3_-_Feynman_and_Leighton_and_Sands.pdf
22:28 < justanotheruser> Thanks
22:37 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
22:50 < fenn> NMR is probably another cheap lab equipment that should be doable
22:53 < fenn> my understanding is that the signal to noise ratio is related to the length of time spent, the radio frequency electronics sensitivity, and the magnet strength. so there is a tradeoff that can prevent the requirement for a huge magnet
23:07 < dingo> any feynman lecture is good
23:08 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.24.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:12 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.24.244] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:36 -!- drewbug [~Adium@fsf/member/drewbug] has joined ##hplusroadmap
--- Log closed Sun May 11 00:00:01 2014