--- Log opened Tue May 13 00:00:03 2014
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02:37 < chris_99> where art thou paperbot
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08:20 <@heath> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/zego-multifunctional-delta-robot-with-3d-printing-attachment
08:21 <@heath> i like this one
08:21 <@heath> if it isn't funded, i'll go with the rostock max
08:21 <@heath> https://github.com/seemecnc/RostockMAXv2
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09:01 < kanzure> https://github.com/openworm/PyOpenWorm "Unified data access library for data about the c. elegans anatomy and model for the OpenWorm project"
09:02 < kanzure> net.aneuron('AVAL').receptors()
09:02 < kanzure> why is that a function :( ugh
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09:07 < mabblebrox> hello
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09:21 < kanzure> mabblebrox: hi
09:21 < mabblebrox> i was talking to someone about myostatin
09:22 < mabblebrox> any new research on this?  a myostatin blocker would be awesome
09:22 < kanzure> yes they stopped the clinical trials because it had symptoms that matched ebola
09:23 < kanzure> mabblebrox: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications http://diyhpl.us/wiki/myostatin
09:27 < mabblebrox> the one with mice?  or human trials?
09:27 < kanzure> human trials
09:29 < mabblebrox> so basically, rotting flesh?
09:29 < kanzure> bleeding from the gums
09:30 < mabblebrox> well that's not too bad, if it's temporary
09:30 < kanzure> what was wrong with steroids?
09:30 < mabblebrox> uh, infertility, increased aggression
09:31 < mabblebrox> i suppose you could just use THC to counteract the aggression maybe
09:31 < kanzure> store some sperm before you go on a cycle like any other rational person
09:31 < mabblebrox> lol
09:31 < mabblebrox> i'm not much familiar with steroid use
09:31 < mabblebrox> aren't they only useful if you're already pretty buff?
09:32 < kanzure> doctors prescribe them to the dying, they are pretty fucking amazing
09:32 < mabblebrox> hmm
09:32 < chris_99> so the dying get big muscles? ;)
09:32 < mabblebrox> i wouldn't want to turn into some hyped up maniac
09:32 < kanzure> you'd have to be dead to not get results
09:32 < mabblebrox> some guy killed his wife from steroid use
09:32 < kanzure> guys are always killing wives
09:32 < kanzure> big deal
09:33 < mabblebrox> yeah but like, directly correlated
09:33 < kanzure> oh my god a correlation
09:33 < mabblebrox> unless you can show that THC will be enough to counteract it
09:33 < kanzure> someone figure out my sign
09:33 < mabblebrox> lol
09:33 < mabblebrox> i mean you could step up to opium i guess
09:33 < mabblebrox> at least, on a cycle
09:33 < kanzure> you just don't like them because they are communist technology
09:33 < mabblebrox> then off
09:33 < mabblebrox> no just from like, research i've seen
09:34 < kanzure> papers or it didn't happen
09:34 < mabblebrox> do you use them?
09:34 < kanzure> some of the aggression claims are falsified
09:34 < kanzure> i use steroids to type faster, http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile.php?username=kanzure
09:34 < mabblebrox> lol
09:34 < mabblebrox> why would they falsify claims of steroid side effects?
09:34 < kanzure> makes it easier to convince people not to use them
09:35 < mabblebrox> so you're suggesting there's a government conspiracy to keep us weak
09:35 < mabblebrox> also, dvorak?
09:35 < mabblebrox> if you're using qwerty i feel sorry for your fingers
09:35 < kanzure> qwerty only
09:35 < mabblebrox> ouch man
09:35 < kanzure> dvorak is not enough of a gain
09:35 < mabblebrox> that's just asking for carpal tunnel
09:35 < mabblebrox> I use it
09:36 < mabblebrox> qwerty was deliberately designed to slow down typing, because the arms in the typewriter would get jammed
09:36 < mabblebrox> but, i dunno, combining steroids with stimulants just sounds bad
09:36 < ParahSailin> if kanzure has survived this long without rsi issues, its safe to say hes not gonna
09:36 < mabblebrox> hum
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09:36 < mabblebrox> well, i use dvorak, and love it
09:37 < mabblebrox> but back to the government conspiracy
09:37 < mabblebrox> you're suggesting, basically, that they want us to remain weak
09:37 < kanzure> it's not a government conspiracy
09:37 < chris_99> you should both have a typing race off
09:37 < mabblebrox> which I can *almost* buy
09:37 < kanzure> it's just your standard fearmongering
09:37 < mabblebrox> idk man
09:37 < chris_99> nmz787, don't suppose you're about?
09:37 < mabblebrox> I mean, if you're dealing in transhumanism, you have to be rational
09:38 < mabblebrox> I think stimulants might be better
09:38 < kanzure> what makes steroids irrational?
09:38 < mabblebrox> heart attacks
09:39 < xmj> quit spitting FUD, its boring
09:39 < mabblebrox> FUD?
09:39 < chris_99> fear uncertainty doubt
09:39 < kanzure> .wik fear uncertainty doubt
09:39 < yoleaux> "Fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) is a tactic used in sales, marketing, public relations,politics and propaganda." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt
09:39 < mabblebrox> hmm
09:40 < kanzure> but you're willing to bleed from the gums
09:41 < mabblebrox> well that's temporaray
09:41 < mabblebrox> as opposed to liver damage or heart failure
09:41 < xmj> mabblebrox: do you think cholesterol leads to coronary heart disease, too?
09:41 < mabblebrox> it builds up in veins, as far as i'm aware
09:41 < xmj> ok, please go away.
09:41  * xmj yawns
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09:55 < kanzure> wow he actually left
09:55 < kanzure> xmj: you'll have to show me how to do that, because they don't usually listen to me
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09:58 < xmj> kanzure: i doubted this would work, and you're welcome
09:58 < xmj> kanzure: let me repeat it at least one more time before i'll teach you
10:00 < kanzure> my usual "please leave" doesn't work
10:00 < kanzure> maybe i will try "please go away." possibly with "ok, " at the front.
10:01 < xmj> i'm thinking it was the combination of showing them they still cling to an absurd belief, *and* the ok, please leave
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10:23 < kanzure> .title http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2436272
10:23 < yoleaux> Can Information Be Locked-Up? Informed Trading Ahead of Macro-News Announcements by Gennaro  Bernile, Jianfeng  Hu, Yuehua  Tang :: SSRN
10:25 < ParahSailin> kanzure: you have to be more german
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10:46 < kanzure> "- "delegation debt" is a form of technical debt that has nothing to do with code and all to do with people willing to maintain it. Inside Google people are allowed (sometimes even suggested) to move between projects every 2/3 years. This means that you can expect the code to write today to have to be maintained by half a different set of people in around 12/18 months"
10:46 < kanzure> "Google's culture seeks and destroys territorial tendencies. I have seen people promoted for having suggested to terminate their own projects... and I have seen people ostracized for having created a territory and having dug moats all around it, even if incredibly complex and successful as a project. This too has to do with sustainability and scale. This is particularly strong in Search where being territorial for middle managers is ...
10:46 < kanzure> ... equivalent to career suicide. Things change as you go higher up the chain of command and in different product areas, though. But it's unfortunate because such an immune reaction to territorialism is one of the most amazing aspects of Google's culture."
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11:13 < kanzure> "European do‐it‐yourself (DIY) biology: Beyond the hope, hype and horror" http://www.markusschmidt.eu/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/DIYBio_eu.pdf
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11:51 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=2e08e63e Bryan Bishop: consolidate some prototyping comments >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/projects/heuristics/
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11:55 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=58f8f1e2 Bryan Bishop: include some words about yak shaving >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/projects/heuristics/
11:55 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=376dbf0a Bryan Bishop: fix formatting inside pre element >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/projects/heuristics/
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12:43 < FourFire> "do you think cholesterol leads to coronary heart disease, too?" don't certain types of cholesterol integrate into the cellular membranes of blood vessel cells making them less flexible and thus stiffening the blood vessel as a whole and causing more direct strain on a pumping heart... or is that another molecule?
12:43 < FourFire> cholesterol is a major component in arterial plaque ...
12:43 < andytoshi> FourFire: food cholesterol and blood cholesterol are different molecules
12:43 < FourFire> yeah, I'm not certain on what types do what
12:44 < FourFire> I know there are different types
12:45 < andytoshi> i don't know what food cholesterol is, i know blood cholesterol can be split into HDL and LDL ("high density liposomethings" and "low density liposomethings") based on the number of double-carbon bonds they have, and i'm vaguely aware of the chemistry behind why this makes LDL plaque
12:45 < andytoshi> HDL i think is good for you
12:46 < FourFire> yeah and there's some ratio: like fishy fats contain more of the healthier type
12:46 < FourFire> Land mammal fats... contain more of the other kind
12:47 < andytoshi> i've read that hydrogenated "trans" fats somehow decrease your HDL while increasing LDL, so they're double-bad. animal "sat" fat merely increases LDL(?)
12:47 < andytoshi> but there is a lot of research that suggests sat fat is not really bad for you, it was just confused with trans fats in old studies
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13:45 < delinquentme> so the kids in #biology are freaking out over me talking about 20nm filters
13:49 < ParahSailin> good luck pushing shit through 20nm pores
13:54 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, I picked up a 7thz HPLC
13:54 < delinquentme> *nods*
13:55 < delinquentme> so I need to get whole-ECM in solution.
13:59 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, in a size-based separation like this ... is there a term for the widest dimension of a protein?
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14:03 < delinquentme> HUE HUE HUE! They've done this in 3d printing :D
14:03  * delinquentme high five ParahSailin 
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14:04 < jrayhawk> FourFire: It's not the cholesterol, it's a particular beta-sheet structure on a particular class of lipoprotein called apolipoprotein-B100.
14:04 < jrayhawk> http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/the-straight-dope-on-cholesterol-part-i this is a good series on the subject.
14:05 < jrayhawk> I mean, the beta-sheet structure is called apolipoprotein-B100, the class of lipoprotein is called low-density lipoprotein.
14:06 < jrayhawk> Notably LDL is a part of the immune response; it's responsible for cleaning up stuff like lipopolysaccharide.
14:08 < jrayhawk> Inflammatory/oxidative insults can damage arterial membranes, shut off the thyroid (decreasing LDL clearance), and raise LDL production.
14:11 < jrayhawk> Use of statins *does* decrease cholesterol production, but *almost never* decreases overall mortality. Where you see disease substitution in a treatment, it means you've mixed up pathology with etiology somewhere along the line.
14:12 < jrayhawk> The paracellular absorption pathway for dietary cholesterol is carefully managed in most people. There is a subpopulation of humans for which it is not particularly carefully managed, but most of it goes to HDL.
14:15 < jrayhawk> s/paracellular/intracellular/ durrr
14:17 < FourFire> I don't even know what etiology means...
14:18 < FourFire> every day is a chance to learn new things!
14:20 < ParahSailin> bovine collagen is $10/kg
14:20 < ParahSailin> stop wasting time
14:21 < jrayhawk> mmmmm bovine collagen
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14:24 < yottabit> if anyone highlighted me today, i missed it
14:24 < yottabit> guess i could look at the logs
14:25 < yottabit> programming with callbacks...
14:25 < yottabit> when it's all i've got to work with, i'm a bit disappointed
14:25 < jrayhawk> Anyone who tells you "trans fats" as a class are bad for you is selling you on a lie. Go to scholar.google.com and see how long it takes you to find anything negative about vaccinic acid or conjugated linoleic acid.
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14:29 < jrayhawk> The real problem is artificial (and thus evolutionarily novel) fatty acids, which can either get mis-selected and mis-used by enzymes, or not used at all. The 'trans' bend is an unsaturation; any such unsaturation is vulnerable to oxidation (unless carefully and appropriately managed, which artificial fatty acids are not).
14:32 < jrayhawk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbhTjRY0rBQ is a fun video on saturated fat politics and science. It is particularly elucidating to see how far over backwards scientists would bend in order to avoid losing their careers.
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14:32 < jrayhawk> A reminder of how just how meaningless scientific consensus is.
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14:48 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, Thats the collagen.  Thats not whole ECM
14:49 < delinquentme> Pure pig collage is worth a try ... but the mechanisms described in the literature are a bit more complex
14:49 < ParahSailin> if you want every protein then why do you want to hplc
14:50 < delinquentme> viral particles
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14:50 < Daeken> hola all
14:51 < jrayhawk> Hello!
14:51 < delinquentme> Literallly I could just sell the whole ECM in a blended up state and that could possibly help ...
14:51 < Daeken> just got my first implantable NFC tag in the mail, and it made me remember this channel haha
14:51 < ParahSailin> hplc is for getting one thing out of a mix of many things
14:51 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, it also can be used for simple size sorting.
14:52 < delinquentme> eff, stupid body is being so needy right now ... ugh gotta eat again
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14:52 < ParahSailin> no that would not be a correct use
14:53 < jrayhawk> oh hey, you're not working on FirefoxOS anymore
14:53 < jrayhawk> i am behind the times
14:53 < delinquentme> ParahSailin,  not *ideal* absolutely.
14:53 < Daeken> jrayhawk: no, left mozilla at the end of 2012 -- wasn't a great fit for me
14:53 < Daeken> ended up back in security consulting.  breaking things is much more my speed :)
14:54 < ParahSailin> use matrigel if you want ecm free of virus
14:54 < delinquentme> And I need to read more research on which proteins I should be pulling out
14:54 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, and full of cancer related promoters
14:54 < ParahSailin> or attenuate virus with formalin
14:54 < delinquentme> how do they get matrigel free of virii?
14:54 < jrayhawk> I remember seeing something about creating Yet Another Display Server and being very sad
14:54 < Daeken> jrayhawk: hmm?
14:55 < ParahSailin> virii? thats a banning
14:55 < cluckj> sweet, new DIY antenna is picking up stations from vermont
14:55 < ParahSailin> use actual words
14:55 < delinquentme> cool ParahSailin viruses
14:55 < delinquentme> brb . fooding.
14:56 < ParahSailin> matrigel doesnt have virus because it does not come from a source that has virus
14:56 < delinquentme> that seems quite complex to be guaranteed
14:56 < ParahSailin> lyophilize and blast with uv will also destroy virus
14:57 < delinquentme> are the mice just raised in sterile conditions?
14:57 < ParahSailin> there is no mouse
14:57 < delinquentme> wha? Are you sure?
14:58 < ParahSailin> stop wasting everyone's time
14:58 < ParahSailin> read some stuff
15:00 < delinquentme> was my understanding that its a tumor which is grafted onto mice and grown
15:01 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.24.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:02 < delinquentme> A gelatinous protein mixture derived from mouse tumor cells and commercialized as Matrigel i
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15:02 < delinquentme> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20162561
15:02 < ParahSailin> cells
15:02 < ParahSailin> not mouse
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15:06 < delinquentme> Ah.
15:06 < delinquentme> Pedant would be a stretch right ParahSailin ?
15:07 < ParahSailin> ?
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15:26 < kanzure> what is the difference between "etiology" and "root cause analysis"?
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15:36 < ParahSailin> theres a pretty big difference between taking a secretion of mammalian cells in a flask and extracting something from a mammal's corpse
15:44 < jrayhawk> "etiology" is more fun to say
15:47 < kanzure> http://bitfreak.info/files/pp2p-ccmbc-rev1.pdf "Purely P2P crypto-currency with finite mini-blockchain"
15:48 < kanzure> hm this assumes that balance is the only relevant piece of data in older blocks, which is probably false
15:48 < kanzure> the relevant data is anything that contributed as input for the hashing
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15:53 < delinquentme> NANOHEDONISM : http://www.etp-nanomedicine.eu/public/news-events/news/european-research-council-erc-awarded-its-4000th-grant-to-a-nanomedicine-project  IDK ... just a crazy name
15:56 < kanzure> "Bitcoin makes use of 2.1 quadrillion units where each coin is made up of 10 million units," uh.. he sucks at math.
15:57 < kanzure> "resulting in a total of 21 million coins." that is not how math works
16:00 < Daeken> yo kanzure
16:01 < kanzure> sup
16:01 < Daeken> not a lot, about to get my first NFC tag implanted :)
16:01 < Daeken> you?
16:01 < Daeken> long time no see!
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16:01 < kanzure> various bitcoin things
16:01 < Daeken> sweet
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17:03 < kanzure> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/forget,_when_up_to_one%27s_neck_in_alligators,_that_the_mission_is_to_drain_the_swamp
17:08 < kanzure> "speaker for the diodes" pfft
17:10 < kanzure> http://joi.ito.com/weblog/2005/03/05/yak-shaving.html i thought all the mit people knew the origin of all mit terms
17:10 < dingo> ha
17:11 < kanzure> oh, mit ai lab, not mit media lab
17:11 < kanzure> maybe they don't talk
17:13 < kanzure> http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2005/03/dont_shave_that.html
17:13 < kanzure> "The minute you start walking down a path toward a yak shaving party, it's worth making a compromise." well that's a dumb way to put it.. how about instead of compromise, you just use one of the other options.
17:15 < kanzure> as usual, c2.com seems to have better content about this phenomenon
17:15 < kanzure> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?YakShaving
17:15 < kanzure> in particular: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?PushDownGoalStack
17:15 < kanzure> "Situation: You have a push-down stack for all your goals. When you hit an obstacle, you push "remove the obstacle" onto the stack. Then, when the obstacle is cleared, you pop the stack, and you are back at your original problem."
17:15 < kanzure> "Problem: For some reason, the problems you push onto the stack keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger, dwarfing the original problem, each one dwarfing the one before it."
17:15 < kanzure> "The goal inflation is not infinite; it seems that the goals shrink down again to something reasonable after the stack gets to a depth of about seven or so."
17:16 < kanzure> "But you've only got so much time, and you don't want to give up your original goal, nor do you want to delay it for years and years. You feel like you are working on the irrelevant."
17:20 < kanzure> "priority queue q = new priority queue sorted by "importance-units per complexity-unit""
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17:37 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldjJFW0pSUU
17:37 < yoleaux> Galil Engineering Group - Promotion clip
17:38 < kanzure> see they don't require a matter compiler :furrowing:
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17:56 < Daeken> nfc tag implanted in my hand :D
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18:03 < catern> nice
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18:05 < kanzure> this gets interesting at page 22 (regarding large-scale engineering design problems)  http://www.birs.ca/workshops/2011/11w5120/files/Chen.pdf
18:07 < kanzure> "a system is not identifiable if different values of the model parameters are equally probable"
18:08 < kanzure> "Objective-oriented sequential sampling for simulation based robust design considering multiple sources of uncertainty"
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18:14 < kanzure> http://johnmurphy.wordpress.com/2013/07/08/yak-shaving-vs-cat-waxing-a-difference-of-vital-importance/
18:15 < kanzure> haven't heard "cat waxing" before, heh
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18:51 < kanzure> pft "trans human industries" http://www.medialifemagazine.com/max-steel-stolen-for-the-most-part/ (just some silly cartoon)
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19:47 < Zhwazi> It was demonized in Half Life 2 also, but more subtly.
19:48 < kanzure> the cartoon was demonized in hl2?
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20:06 < pyotra> Zhwazi you have to toss the pallets using the anti-gravity gun so you can walk over sand without alerting the giant insectw
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20:07 < Zhwazi> No, transhumanism was. And I just killed the insects. It was easier.
20:07 < Zhwazi> Stupid antlions.
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20:07 < pyotra> Three Free man should use the anti-gravity gun.
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20:07 < pyotra> the*
20:07 < Zhwazi> It was just called the gravity gun
20:09 < pyotra> http://half-life.wikia.com/wiki/Zero_Point_Energy_Field_Manipulator
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20:40 < fenn> localized CVD doesn't sound too difficult http://www.3dprinterworld.com/article/researchers-use-additive-manufacturing-create-nanoscale-objects
21:01 < strangewarp> ha, I remember that part of HL2. some by-the-by bit of dialogue about "the transhuman loyalists" to Breen's regime, with the implication being that they were all being turned into uh, those lobotomized cyborg things later in the game...
21:03 < kanzure> fenn, detroit doesn't have a sea port. how about shop space near a sea port..
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21:24 < fenn> Detroit serves as a major port on the Detroit River connecting the Great Lakes system to the Saint Lawrence Seaway.
21:26 < fenn> how about the sacramento river
21:27 < fenn> i guess it depends which ocean you're intereste in
21:29 < kanzure> having to use freight + pickup for equipment is a headache
21:33 < kanzure> why'd i get rid of that truck
21:35 < fenn> i want a small isuzu refrigerated box truck
21:35 < fenn> they are so cute and practical
21:35 < fenn> you can flip up the cab and the whole engine is accessible
21:36 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/the-embezzler.jpg
21:36 < kanzure> my truck </3
21:37 < kanzure> it even baked cookies
21:37 < fenn> nobody needs a truck like that
21:37 < kanzure> agreed
21:37 < justanotheruser> kanzure: is that really your car?
21:37 < fenn> i wonder if it's legal to chop a schoolbus in half and weld it back together
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21:38 < kanzure> justanotheruser: it was my car for approximately 3 weeks while i was busy selling it (it was the result of extended lawsuits and legal adventures)
21:38 < fenn> buses are practically free for the taking
21:38 < kanzure> *one of the results
21:38 < justanotheruser> fenn: is it driving a bus full of children home when you cut it?
21:38 < kanzure> one of many results
21:39 < fenn> justanotheruser: yeah but you have to make sure to use a linear shape charge or it makes a mess
21:39 < justanotheruser> kanzure: you got it because of a lawsuit or lost it because of a lawsuit?
21:40 < kanzure> result of a series of lawsuits
21:40 < fenn> it was the "prize"
21:40 < kanzure> one of many
21:40 < kanzure> this is also related to why i'm not allowed to use charles schwab anymore
21:40 < fenn> that's hardly a loss
21:40 < justanotheruser> kanzure: ... You gained assets, but lost privileges?
21:41 < kanzure> well, think of it from the perspective of a company involved in a messy series of lawsuits or legal entanglements
21:41 < kanzure> would you really want to have future dealings with everyone involved?
21:41 < justanotheruser> kanzure: I'm curious, what did they allege you did?
21:41 < kanzure> i can sort of see their side of it
21:41 < justanotheruser> Or what did you claim they did?
21:41 < kanzure> oh, i did nothing but hire lawyers to pursue the case
21:42 < kanzure> i just claimed they goofed up. but there were other parties involved.. anyway, it's complicated.
21:42 < justanotheruser> OK... And did you win money and buy a truck or win a truck?
21:42 < fenn> also you are not allowed to use q-tips
21:43 < kanzure> one of the assets i was given was a bunch of trucks
21:43 < justanotheruser> Weird
21:44 < kanzure> yes... that is an okay way to say it.
21:44 < justanotheruser> Does Charles Schwab hold their assets in trucks?
21:44 < kanzure> i said other parties were involved, right?
21:44 < justanotheruser> Oh, I thought they were on your side
21:44 < kanzure> hah i wish
21:45 < kanzure> SUE EVERYONE
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21:45 < kanzure> asset seizure, yo
21:46 < fenn> seize dat ass
21:46 < fenn> set
21:47 < fenn> is it a "hate crime" to encourage the murder of an occupational group?
21:47 < kanzure> not on irc
21:48 < justanotheruser> Is it a crime to encourage but not solicit murder in general?
21:48 < fenn> DEATH TO ALL LEAF BLOWER GUYS
21:48 < kanzure> it's not murder, it's just selective encroachment
21:48 < QuantumG> fenn: second
21:48 < justanotheruser> "Murder all North Korean leaders"
21:48 < kanzure> yeah, leaf blowers should be killed with fires
21:48 < fenn> you thought i was going to say lawyers didnt you
21:49 < kanzure> if they really didn't want leafs in their yards, they would just use giant nets on the edges of their property
21:49 < kanzure> and under each tree canopy
21:49 < QuantumG> I watched my wife tutor a leaf blowing neighbour in how to use a broom once.
21:49 < kanzure> your wife must be a saint
21:50 < QuantumG> indeed
21:50 < kanzure> of leaf blower stopping
21:50 < fenn> kanzure how about venice
21:50 < kanzure> why
21:50 < justanotheruser> Leaf blowers are useful contributors to society. They make my view of the suburbs more aesthetically pleasing.
21:50 < fenn> all properties have easy mediterranean access
21:50 < fenn> also i just watched a documentary about venice
21:51 < fenn> justanotheruser: enjoy the view when it's burning
21:51 < kanzure> i don't know about shipping from china to venice
21:51 < justanotheruser> fenn: ?
21:51 < QuantumG> leaf blowing (v) a process that takes ten times as long to complete and piss off everyone around you.
21:52 < fenn> well shipping china to oakland is pretty routine
21:53 < fenn> i dunno if it's easy to get something transferred to your own boat
21:53 < fenn> or if you can get it delivered by a barge or something
21:53 < kanzure> i'm just not keen on ending up in a situation where i'm wondering how to get something from the tracks to a shop
21:53 < fenn> that seems like a service that would exist right?
21:54 < fenn> oh i think a waterfront hackerspace is a grand idea
21:54 < kanzure> i bet copenhagen suborbitals has at least one shop with water access
21:54 < fenn> need to do something incredibly dangerous? no problem, just put it on a barge and tow it out into the bay
21:56 < kanzure> i wonder how they stop rising tide from washing away your cnc equipment
21:56 < QuantumG> ya guys keep talking like this and I might get the wrong impression that you're actually planning on doing something.
21:56 < kanzure> don't worry, fenn will stop me
21:56 < QuantumG> cool
21:56 < fenn> hold on let me get out my book of existentialist excuses
21:56 < kanzure> symbolic computing seems to be the reason this week
21:57 < fenn> "Everything has been figured out, except how to live.
21:57 < fenn> "Only the guy who isn't rowing has time to rock the boat.
21:57 < fenn> what the hell is that supposed to mean
21:57 < fenn> "hey guys we're going the wrong way!"
21:57 < kanzure> it means that the rower can't learn guitar
21:58 < fenn> "Three o'clock is always too late or too early for anything you want to do.
21:59 < fenn> srsly, ever try to use an angle grinder at 3 am?
21:59 < kanzure> why would the angle grinder care what time it is?
22:00 < kanzure> how do they keep their tools from washing away?
22:00 < fenn> uh what
22:01 < fenn> you mean from the inevitable climate deluge omgz sea levelz
22:01 < kanzure> well, a tsunami?
22:02 < fenn> you just build your shop on a fnord, and the tsunami pretends like it isn't there
22:03 < justanotheruser> Whats new in hplus? Anything getting us closer to transhumanism? And cool open source hardware?
22:04 < QuantumG> debates about yak shaving
22:04 < fenn> well there's bunnicula the vampire rabbit
22:04 < justanotheruser> What is your noot stack? I tried piracetam and it didn't work at all. But ltheanine and caffeine combined do work
22:05 < kanzure> the yak shaving debates are just my way of attempting to convince fenn to bother to build things
22:05 < kanzure> my noot stack is just adderall
22:05 < justanotheruser> kanzure: script?
22:05 < fenn> piracetam is only noticeable when combined with something else
22:05 < kanzure> yes
22:05 < justanotheruser> kanzure: reccomend?
22:05 < justanotheruser> *recommend
22:05 < fenn> i think piracetam reduces jitters and "noise" of caffeine
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22:08 < fenn> justanotheruser: since we don't know what you do and don't know it's hard to decide what to tell you
22:09 < justanotheruser> fenn: don't know what my medications are, or my occupation is?
22:09 < kanzure> occupation: astronaut
22:09 < fenn> more like, what you have read/seen or not
22:09 < fenn> i don't believe in occupations
22:10 < justanotheruser> My occupation is student. I'm a PhD student studying to become a member of the FDA. My hobbys include dreaming about the future and reading hplusroadmap magazine.
22:11 < kanzure> i hope that's not true
22:11 < kanzure> i originally started hplusroadmap to get more transhumanist hardware projects to happen
22:11 < kanzure> well, not just more, but specific things at least
22:11 < fenn> perhaps we can indoctrinate him to become a subversive agent
22:12 < kanzure> he's joking
22:12 < justanotheruser> No, I am everything you hate kanzure
22:12 < fenn> or is it counter-subversive? it's hard to keep track of stated goals vs hidden agendas
22:12 < kanzure> magazine readers are simply the worst; "i think a computer sounds cool, but let me just wait 40 years for it to become mass marketed, instead of making my own"
22:12 < kanzure> justanotheruser: so you're an FDA bitcoiner? that doesn't add up
22:14 < fenn> so anyway what are you interested in besides nootropics and bitcoins?
22:14 < justanotheruser> kanzure: why not?
22:14 < kanzure> because bitcoins aren't fda approved
22:15 < fenn> secure systems in general aren't fda-approved
22:15 < justanotheruser> fenn: everything in this channels topic, but I don't think nootropics are as useful as many advertise them to be
22:15 < justanotheruser> I also am really interested in decentralized systems
22:15 < justanotheruser> And nanotechnology
22:16 < fenn> please explain what you mean by "decentralized systems"
22:16 < justanotheruser> kanzure: I'm trying to get FDA approval, that's my PhD thesis
22:16 < kanzure> most nootropics aren't particularly impactful
22:16 < justanotheruser> fenn: applications without central authorities, like money or marketplaces
22:16 < kanzure> adderall does something really magical for me, but i'm pretty certain i'm a fluke
22:17 < justanotheruser> Or filesharing
22:17 < justanotheruser> kanzure: does it cause motivation?
22:17 < kanzure> yes and no
22:17 < fenn> it makes you do whatever you were doing, but more
22:17 < kanzure> it's possible that there's higher than normal motivation on my end
22:18 < kanzure> but also, it doesn't hurt it
22:18 < justanotheruser> I prefer vyvanse
22:18 < fenn> (at least that's my observation from the outside)
22:18 < kanzure> i could feel vyvanse but it had much more of a peripheral nervous system effect for me
22:18 < fenn> i thought vyvanse was the "female viagra" :X
22:18 < kanzure> no
22:19 < justanotheruser> I think a vyvanse script would be terrible for me (it is amphetamine after all), but it makes me incredibly concentrated
22:19 < kanzure> why is that terrible?
22:20 < justanotheruser> kanzure: bexause amphetamine damages your brain over time
22:21 < kanzure> specifically?
22:23 < justanotheruser> kanzure: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/amphetamines/amphetamines_effects.shtml
22:23 < justanotheruser> All my infos from erowid, so I may be wrong
22:23 < fenn> there are rather significant differences between "speed" and "adderall XR"
22:24 < fenn> not least of which is delivery method
22:24 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=56bf9ac9 Bryan Bishop: yak shaving >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/projects/heuristics/
22:25 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure the delivery method counts for a lot
22:25 < justanotheruser> I may have remembered wrong though. It seems most of the negative effects are to your body
22:25 < kanzure> the delivery method is the part that didn't get genericized
22:25 < kanzure> updated http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/heuristics
22:25 < fenn> but smoking meth is diametrically opposed to the purpose of "XR"
22:26 < fenn> justanotheruser: most negative effects are due to not eating, not sleaping, not salivating
22:26 < kanzure> hmm, well meth has long-lasting effects, like multiple hour highs or something
22:26 < kanzure> so i'm not sure how that's supposed to not be "extended release"?
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22:27 < justanotheruser> kanzure: if I got smartmarket working, would it be hplus enough to be on diyhpl.us?
22:27 < fenn> that's the tail end of the logarithmic drop-off
22:27 < kanzure> if you mean the wiki, you're free to add whatever you please
22:27 < kanzure> if you mean the source code on diyhpl.us/cgit, i'd be happy to git clone..
22:27 < justanotheruser> OK thanks
22:28 < kanzure> did i show you http://diyhpl.us/cgit/drugstackscrapers
22:28 < kanzure> oh hm i deleted it? that doesn't seem like me
22:28 < kanzure> i was writing a nootropic price indexing search engine thing
22:28 < kanzure> with klafka
22:30 < fenn> it's still there, just no read permissions
22:31 < fenn> what's smartmarket?
22:31 < kanzure> https://github.com/lapp0/Smart-Market
22:32 < fenn> is this like silk road but decentralized?
22:35 < kanzure> fenn, explain how things like these are possible without a matter compiler https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldjJFW0pSUU
22:36 < fenn> it seems the majority of things we need are neither illegal or restricted, but just not produced in large enough quantity for a market to exist at all
22:36 < fenn> .title
22:36 < yoleaux> Galil Engineering Group - Promotion clip
22:38 < fenn> "the group employs hundreds of professionals, with some of the best minds in their field" ooo pipes, lots of pipes
22:38 < fenn> win32pipes.exe
22:38 < kanzure> nah that's standard bullshit
22:38 < kanzure> just like we're the greatest minds in transhumanism
22:39 < kanzure> (we're fucking screwed)
22:40 < fenn> so i think they use a component of matter compiler, the "design rule checker" and "automated layout" to route their pipes
22:40 < fenn> similar to how PCB layout works
22:40 < fenn> i just don't know what the software is called, probably only exists inside companies like galil
22:41 < kanzure> uh no, they aren't just using a layout algorithm
22:41 < kanzure> they also actually do real work
22:41 < kanzure> they don't just sit around for symbolic ai to do everything for them
22:42 < kanzure> lots of schlpes
22:42 < kanzure> schleps
22:42 < fenn> megatherbligs
22:42 < fenn> .d therblig
22:42 < yoleaux> Sorry, I couldn't find a definition for 'therblig'.
22:42 < fenn> oh come on
22:42 < fenn> .wik therblig
22:42 < yoleaux> "Therbligs are 18 kinds of elemental motions used in the study of motion economy in the workplace. A workplace task is analyzed by recording each of the therblig units for a process, with the results used for optimization of manual labor by eliminating unneeded movements." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therblig
22:43 < kanzure> you're not going to just tap at the right location on the wall and cause the universe to do your bidding for you
22:44 < fenn> so you're arguing that lots of pointing and clicking is a good thing now?
22:44 < kanzure> "Ah, you see, right here is your problem. The universe is out of phase, and if I knock right here in just the right way, everything will get better. I'll send you my invoice."
22:44 < kanzure> i'm not talking about pointing and clicking
22:44 < cpopell`werk> fenn: I think matter compilers are silly, but thanks for linking that concept
22:44 < kanzure> i'm talking about doing shit in a machine shop
22:45 < kanzure> and other shoppy goodness
22:45 < kanzure> you don't just sit around and the world orchestrates around you
22:45 < kanzure> you have to actively engage and push matter and bits and atoms into the right places
22:45 < kanzure> think of it as janitorial work
22:45 < kanzure> there's often a bunch of scrubbing that machines are incapable of doing
22:45 < kanzure> or things that aren't quite scrubbing
22:46 < fenn> .wik scrobbling
22:46 < yoleaux> "Last.fm is a music website, founded in the United Kingdom in 2002. Using a music recommender system called "Audioscrobbler", Last.fm builds a detailed profile of each user's musical taste by recording details of the tracks the user listens to, either from Internet radio stations, or the user's computer or many portable music devices." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrobbling
22:46 < kanzure> also, you could be spending a million years before finding that one place in the wall to knock on
22:46 < fenn> that's not what scrobbling means
22:46 < kanzure> and i'm sort of annoyed that i have to make this argument to you
22:46 < fenn> i don't really get what you're trying to say or why you think you need to tell me?
22:47 < fenn> i built a machine shop by hand, and most recently was about to build a house from dirt by hand
22:47 < kanzure> "finding that one place to knock" sounds exactly like the "well, i need a matter compiler before i'm willing to do any project ever"
22:47 < fenn> you're attributing words to me that i never said
22:47 < kanzure> it was from the other day
22:48 < fenn> you asked, "is it misguided to work on things that don't lead to a matter compiler?" and i answered "possibly, yes"
22:48 < kanzure> 20:24 < kanzure> repeating is compiling it yourself again
22:48 < kanzure> 20:24 < fenn> yes this is why we need a matter compiler
22:49 < kanzure> 20:25 < fenn> it's the whole point
22:50 < fenn> "kanzure> do you think that all effort to build anything is completely misguided, since they are not build
22:50 < fenn> ing a matter compiler"
22:50 < kanzure> so what has changed since you built a house or a machine shop
22:50 < fenn> i wanted to do more
22:52 < fenn> there are lots of tools to make stuff from computer designs, but it takes for fucking ever to get from idea to product
22:52 < kanzure> "doing more" looks a lot like doing nothing
22:52 < fenn> especially when your tools ignore optimizing the manufacturing process
22:52 < fenn> oh, i have been doing absolutely nothing at all for the past year
22:52 < fenn> that's not some kind of argument
22:53 < kanzure> i don't mean specifically the past year
22:53 < kanzure> or any particular past year
22:53 < kanzure> time wasn't what i was trying to point out
22:54 < fenn> yeah there has been a lot of frustration with logistics and mess and not having enough money
22:54 < fenn> which ultimately led to me fleeing to the middle of nowhere and digging in the dirt
22:54 < fenn> i mean, nobody pays you to work on cool stuff
22:55 < fenn> they just want web shopping carts and to show up on time
22:56 < kanzure> my point also wasn't about web shopping carts
22:56 < kanzure> it's about tractability
22:59 < fenn> i think you're projecting something onto me that's not there
22:59 < fenn> like i'm going to join SIAI or something
22:59 < kanzure> as long as the next time you want a pill dispenser you don't say "okay, first let's invent ai", i'm happy
23:01 < kanzure> some asshole named their product "papers" as a competing product to "mendeley" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7741925
23:01 < fenn> isnt that an old thing? pre-mendeley?
23:01 < kanzure> and it's owned by springer
23:02 < kanzure> nah i think mendeley is from 2006ish?
23:02 < fenn> it was only for mac and then it was canceled or whatever the word is for when software is no longer available
23:03 < cpopell`werk> I've used Qiqqa before
23:08 < fenn> they seem to think you'll be using the multi-colored highlighter a lot in "papers"
23:08 < fenn> anyway it's cool how it auto-downloads a pdf from any url you paste
23:11 < sheena> http://ethology.eu/study-programs/syllabus/ free ethology courses
23:11 < fenn> will it tell me why the cat is meowing
23:12 < kanzure> it will tell you to buy purina-brand meow mix foods
23:13 < sheena> naw, no purina sponsorship
23:13 < jrayhawk> ingredients: purified gliadin
23:13 < fenn> psh they only use high-quality zein, which has no known lethal side effects
23:14 < kanzure> why is pet nutrition simpler than human nutrition
23:14 < fenn> because it's based on science
23:14 < jrayhawk> boards of ethics don't care about animals very much
23:15 < fenn> "Papers was originally released as a public preview in February 2007"
23:16 < kanzure> they deserve no attention because their product name is awful
23:16 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_reference_management_software
23:16 < sheena> im not sure pet nutrition IS simpler?
23:17 < kanzure> it comes in bags and you feed it to them
23:17 < fenn> sounds simple to me
23:17 < fenn> "do you want the wet stuff or the dry stuff"
23:18 < fenn> i should calculate the completeness of oat waffles using lentils + oats instead of pea protein
23:18 < fenn> "because knowing is half the battle!"
23:18 < kanzure> - wolfram alpha
23:19 < fenn> you mean the least reliable software ever?
23:19 < fenn> .wa amino acid profile of pink lentils
23:19 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result!
23:19 < fenn> .wa lentils protein content
23:19 < yoleaux> prepared lentil: amount: 130 grams: protein: Average result: 12 grams; Unit conversions: 0.012 kg (kilograms); 0.41 oz (ounces); Comparison to reference daily intake: | daily amount: % daily value; RDA: 50 g/day (grams per day): 23%; DRI (male): 56 g/day (grams per day): 21%; DRI (female): 46 g/day (grams per day): 25%; (RDA: recommended daily allowance; DRI: dietary reference intake)
23:20 < fenn> hmm that's not very much
23:21 < fenn> i didn't know there was actually a RDA for protein
23:23 < fenn> .wa oats protein content
23:23 < yoleaux> oats: amount: 1 cup: protein: Average result: 9.2 grams; Unit conversions: 0.0092 kg (kilograms); 0.32 oz (ounces); Comparison to reference daily intake: | daily amount: % daily value; RDA: 50 g/day (grams per day): 15%; DRI (male): 56 g/day (grams per day): 13%; DRI (female): 46 g/day (grams per day): 16%; (RDA: recommended daily allowance; DRI: dietary reference intake)
23:25 < fenn> i wonder if oats really have that much manganese
23:28 < sheena> i've started taking magnesium
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23:29 < fenn> thoughts? observations?
23:31 < sheena> nothing much yet. no side effects noted. they're big fucking capsules tho
23:31 < sheena> taking 3 in the morning now, 150mg a piece i think
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23:36 < Daeken> sheena: are you testing your magnesium levels?
23:36 < sheena> not at this point, no
23:37 < Daeken> blindly manipulating electrolyte levels is kinda like poking a bear very gently.  it may not wake up at all ... but if it does, you probably don't want to be there.
23:37 < fenn> Daeken: it's quite rare that a doctor will have access to a blood NMR machine. serum levels don't reflect tissue magnesium status
23:38 < fenn> adding sodium to your french fries is "blindly manipulating electrolyte levels"
23:38 < fenn> 3 capsules seems like a lot to start out with tho
23:39 < Daeken> fenn: 1) well, "don't reflect" isn't quite right.  standard blood serum levels are inaccurate, but not tremendously so.  2) you're talking about drops versus buckets.  very different quantities.
23:39 < fenn> 1) no and 2) no
23:39 < Daeken> i mean, eating a banana increases your potasium levels, but i wouldn't hazard against it.  i would hazard against a handful of potasium capsules.
23:39 < fenn> bananas don't really have that much potassium
23:40 < fenn> potassium is actually lethal in large quantities, but you have to take "dozens" of capsules
23:40 < Daeken> ... i think you're missing the point :P
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23:45 < fenn> dietary sodium intake in measured in grams; it's easy to add because sodium is readily absorbed as an ion. we have special purpose sodium transporters, (and salt tastes good) because sodium was historically/evolutionarily scarce
23:47 < fenn> magnesium on the other hand is common in leafy plants and water, and tastes not so good. we don't transport it specifically as an ion, but it can catch a ride through a sugar transporter with citrate as the anion. adding citrate bulks it up a lot in mass and volume
23:47 < fenn> the transporters are limited in capacity and if you take too much you will just get diarrhea
23:48 < fenn> if you have too much in your blood you will pee it out in short order, unless you have kidney failure or someone is injecting it into you too fast
23:49 < fenn> the reason people get high blood pressure is because the body expects to have plenty of magnesium and potassium, but not enough sodium, but the situation is the reverse in the modern american diet
23:49 < fenn> kidney symporters are waiting around for a magnesium or potassium to show up, and it never does, so the sodium gets stuck along with the water it carries
23:51 < fenn> meanwhile they pimp calcium supplements to anyone and everyone
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--- Log closed Wed May 14 00:00:04 2014