--- Log opened Wed May 14 00:00:04 2014
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00:07 < fenn> an adult wild howler monkey consumes, mg per day: calcium 4500, phosphorus 700, potassium 6400, sodium 180, chloride 1800, magnesium 1300, iron 38, manganese 18
00:09 < fenn> except for sodium, chloride, and phosphorus, these are all WAY over the RDA and what a normal person would eat
00:10 < fenn> basically wild monkeys are just constantly stuffing plant matter into their mouths
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00:11 < fenn> oh yeah and the monkey only weighs 7 kg
00:18 < fenn> collection of papers: http://fennetic.net/irc/magnesium_in_the_central_nervous_system.pdf
00:19 < ebowden> Huh.
00:19 < fenn> i liked the MRI images of magnesium concentration in brain tissue
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00:26 < ebowden> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwr6EgxeevE
00:27 < fenn> .title
00:27 < yoleaux> What happens when WHITE HOT METAL hits Water!
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00:30 < fenn> the popping effect is because the surrounding bubble of steam goes away, along with its refraction
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00:56 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=cabc0158 fenn: marking out the bounds of the build/buy problem >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/projects/heuristics/
01:00 < fenn> old news but relevant to today's discussions http://blog.lef.org/2012/01/brain-health-magnesium-threonate.html
01:03 < fenn> threonate is the carboxylic acid salt of threose, a sugar metabolite of vitamin C (not threonine)
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02:47 < kanzure> In actual news, the human race was doomed to extinction today as the robot revolt turned violent.
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03:01 <@_archels> kanzure: did the Terrans kill all the robots? :(
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03:09 < jrayhawk> all that is left of the terrans is paperclips
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03:11 < Qfwfq> paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=135244
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08:05 < kanzure> i don't think so
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08:14 < kanzure> gene_hacker: sup
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08:18 < gene_hacker> making graphsynth IN 3D!
08:23 < kanzure> did i tell you about the time i rewrote graphsynth in python
08:23 < kanzure> fun times..
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10:02 < sheena> can i stop coughing?
10:03 < kanzure> remove the diaphragm. also, cough syrups.
10:04 < sheena> blah. both crappy options
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11:08 < FourFire> sheena, no. You're gonna die D:
11:09 < sheena> FourFire: thats unfortunate
11:09 < sheena> though i think dead eople cough less
11:09 < FourFire> (I hope you don't though)
11:10 < FourFire> "But saying you hope, is admitting you have no control over the outcome"
11:10 < chris_99> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_unclonable_function pretty nifty stuff
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11:46 < kanzure> .title http://www.autodesk.com/campaigns/spark
11:46 < yoleaux> Spark – Open Software Platform for 3D Printing
11:47 < kanzure> http://inthefold.autodesk.com/.a/6a017c3334c51a970b01a3fd089f22970b-pi
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12:04 < kanzure> "international space development conference" has max more this year http://isdc.nss.org/2014/
12:06 < kanzure> http://conversableeconomist.blogspot.com/2014/05/absurdities-of-copyright-protection.html
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12:27 < delinquentme> Anyone have an opinion on whether a scaled up gel electrophoresis machine would be useful?
12:27 < heath> scaled up from?
12:27 < delinquentme> I'm looking at size separation protocols right now and they're talking about using gel electrophoresis to get the yield component
12:28 < delinquentme> heath, Just in how much volume you can fill a gel / well with
12:30 < heath> i guess it depends upon how much you want to run?
12:30 < heath> bbl need to get my a1410
12:30 < heath> ssh key
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12:55 < fenn> a story about the build/buy heuristic in action: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/unfinished-receivers-that-can-be-used-to-build-guns-pose-problems-for-law-enforcement/2014/05/13/8ec39e9e-da51-11e3-bda1-9b46b2066796_story.html
12:55 < fenn> .title
12:55 < yoleaux> ‘Unfinished receivers,’ a gun part that is sold separately, lets some get around the law
12:56 < fenn> says they used to host "build parties" where a skilled machinist would set up a milling machine to do the finishing operations on each person's lower receiver
13:00 < kanzure> did you meet phil?
13:02 < fenn> phil never wrote back?
13:02 < kanzure> he was annoyed by your top posting
13:03 < fenn> that's hilarious
13:03 < fenn> i blame gmail
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13:15 < delinquentme> hmmmmm
13:15 < delinquentme> poor paperbotz
13:15 < chris_99> what happened to paperbot?
13:16 < delinquentme> kanzure, is it something easy to fix?
13:16 < delinquentme> or is this an issue with the IRC client?
13:17 < abetusk> Is Spark really open?
13:20 < chris_99> http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25560-sentient-robots-not-possible-if-you-do-the-maths.html?cmpid=RSS|NSNS|2012-GLOBAL|online-news#.U3Mms4f5R8E
13:20 < chris_99> sounds iffy to me
13:23 < kanzure> i don't know where it went
13:23 < fenn> server crashed or whatever
13:26 < kanzure> that's not a good reason
13:26 < fenn> wow i can't even figure out what they're trying to say in that "consciousness" article, the mashed metaphors are so bad
13:31 < fenn> the paper itself is even worse
13:31 < fenn> "how not to design a diagram" http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1003588.g021&representation=PNG_M
13:34 < chris_99> goodness only knows
13:35 < fenn> it only makes sense if you're conscious, us zombies can't handle it since we're made out of meat, not ineffable quales
13:35 < chris_99> haha
13:35 < kanzure> ineffable ineffness
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13:45 < fenn> "This kit contains all hard to find materials that you need to make your own screen-printed electroluminescent display." https://sites.google.com/site/elen4193/kits/el
13:46 < fenn> d'eaux. out of stock
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13:54 < fenn> maybe i can re-use the ITO coating from a LCD display like from a TI graphing calculator
14:06 < fenn> SrB4O7(F): Eu 370 nm emission
14:06 < fenn> BaSi2O5: Pb 351 nm emission
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14:07 < fenn> you could use an EL grid to do direct stereolithography or focus with a fresnel lens (or mirrors or a big regular lens)
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14:09 < fenn> simon field made some Eu doped phosphors so it's definitely bootstrappable if you can get the elements
14:11 < fenn> has anyone here actually physically handled graphene?
14:11 < fenn> or other conductive polymers
14:17 < kanzure> probably gene_hacker
14:23 < fenn> http://sci-toys.com/scitoys/scitoys/light/invisible/invisible.html#Kryptonite  "strontium magnesium aluminate, doped with the rare earth lanthanides europium and dysprosium"
14:24 < kanzure> dysprosium
14:24 < fenn> obviously this particular phosphor would make a poor display/3d print emitter because its decay half life is 6 hours
14:32 < fenn> i wonder how slow a cellphone display + fresnel lens would be for 3d printing
14:32 < kanzure> show me an acceptable python api for cad things
14:33 < kanzure> was the pythonocc one okay?
14:33 < fenn> i don't remember
14:34 < fenn> it had a lot of swig-isms
14:34 < kanzure> https://github.com/tpaviot/pythonocc/tree/master/src/examples
14:34 < kanzure> https://github.com/tpaviot/pythonocc/blob/master/src/examples/PAF/test_gears_sympy.py
14:34 < kanzure> oh man that blows
14:35 < kanzure> https://github.com/tpaviot/pythonocc/blob/master/doc/tutorials/geometry_modeling_and_visualization/Step3_Boolean/Step3_2.py
14:36 < fenn> gear1 = my_context.prim_operations.MakeCylinderPntVecRH( my_pnt1, my_vec1, p.R1, p.H1, p.Angle1, name="Gear1", show=True )
14:36 < kanzure> time to commit suicide
14:36 < fenn> i'm generally not a fan of camel case
14:36 < kanzure> PntVecRH
14:36 < fenn> i guess there's some C++ convention that says classes are supposed to be upper camelcase
14:37 < kanzure> what about in openscad?
14:38 < fenn> so the PntVecRH is because he isn't using named arguments; there's a separate constructor for each different way of specifying the cylinder
14:38 < fenn> i think a class should be smart enough to figure out cylinder(r=1, h=2, name='Gear1')
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14:40 < fenn> and have sensible default parameters
14:41 < fenn> you shouldn't have to specify if all on one line. foo=cylinder(); foo.move([1,2,3]); foo.rotate([0,0,1])
14:43 < fenn> i don't get why he's separating things into prim_operations and basic_operations
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14:45 < fenn> i guess "from sympy import *" lets you do stuff like "Rel1 = a / ( 1 + r )"
14:45 < fenn> that's actually pretty cool
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14:46 < fenn> but that's getting ahead of ourselves
14:46 < fenn> uh, is there an existing API that we should be following instead of coming up with one from scratch?
14:47 < fenn> not necessarily brl-cad but general geometry stuff
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14:49 < fenn> .title http://docs.sympy.org/dev/modules/geometry.html
14:49 < yoleaux> SymPy 0.7.5-git documentation
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14:53 < fenn> ok sympy is not very complete
14:55 < fenn> i'm not to keen on the "spin" method either
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15:01 < fenn> there was a toy 3d framework for python, "visual python" or "VPython" or "python-visual" that had a decent API; http://vpython.org/contents/docs/cylinder.html
15:03 < fenn> box() is a lot easier to remember than which one of those ARBN things from brlcad you should be using
15:04 < fenn> the ARB* and RPP and so on should still be made available, but not the first priority and definitely not used in introductory tutorials
15:08 < fenn> this pretty much takes care of handling user input to create 3D geometry, but what about importing from existing files through brl-cad?
15:08 < fenn> like if you open a .g or .step file, how does it get translated into box() objects
15:10 < fenn> and should we aim to save the parsed tree as a python source code file?
15:10 < fenn> what is the serialization format
15:11 < kanzure> ok
15:13 < kanzure> aww autodesk bought http://circuits.io/ ?
15:13 < fenn> this is for map geometry http://geojson.org/geojson-spec.html perhaps a point of inspiration
15:13 < fenn> maybe a json cad format is feature creep
15:13 < kanzure> to appease the openscad people, python is fine
15:14 < kanzure> to appease the brlcad people, brlcad file formats are fine
15:14 < fenn> i really liked this when i read it many years ago http://www.bruno.postle.net/older-stuff/2003/draft/
15:16 < fenn> how do openscad people use python?
15:16 < fenn> is it "write only"?
15:17 < kanzure> they don't use python
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15:17 < kanzure> the openscad people are mostly unaware of python or other languages really
15:17 < fenn> so why bring them up
15:18 < kanzure> because i don't want to be damned to 20 years of openscad files
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15:18 < fenn> too late; once a format gets traction you're stuck with it
15:18 < fenn> the only way out is conversion tools
15:19 < kanzure> fuck that
15:19 < fenn> this is why i want to utilize an existing geometry api rather than roll my own
15:22 < fenn> i like the CSG operator overloading here https://github.com/SolidCode/SolidPython
15:22 < fenn> c = cylinder( r=10, h=5) + cylinder( r=2, h=30)
15:27 < fenn> i did something like this https://github.com/SolidCode/SolidPython/blob/master/solid/screw_thread.py   http://fennetic.net/irc/polar_screw_thread.png
15:28 < kanzure> that autodesk printer is supposed to be $5k and use dlp
15:28 < kanzure> marketing materials don't say dlp
15:28 < kanzure> "We are here with Autodesk so just trust me 😃" fuck them
15:29 < fenn> what autodesk printer and why should i care
15:29 < kanzure> you should care because they are busy validating a market for you
15:29 < fenn> i don't care about markets
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15:29 < fenn> i just want capability
15:30 < kanzure> markets are what pay you
15:30 < fenn> autodesk is just a competitor with more clout and lawyers than i have
15:31 < kanzure> that doesn't matter
15:31 < kanzure> they're not a competitor anyway
15:32 < fenn> http://formlabs.com/products/form-1/ is "only" $3k
15:32 < kanzure> i wonder why
15:32 < fenn> or did they get bought by autodesk or something
15:32 < fenn> because it looks like an apple product
15:32 < kanzure> but i mean, uh
15:32 < kanzure> dlp does't cost $3k
15:32 < fenn> i have no idea what it costs
15:33 < kanzure> well, what are the primary components? DMD, maybe a few lenses, maybe a few diodes, some crappy microcontroller
15:33 < kanzure> oh.. "A high precision optical system directs a laser across a tank of liquid resin, solidifying layers as thin as 25 microns. The build platform pulls your model upwards, out of the tank."
15:34 < kanzure> yeah that doesn't sound expensive at all
15:34 < fenn> when i looked into it last it was hard to get the DLP component by itself
15:34 < fenn> so the cost of a projector basically
15:34 < kanzure> a projector is not $3k these days
15:34 < fenn> oh is formlabs SLA?
15:34 < fenn> like, vector control
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15:38 < fenn> .title http://georgehart.com/rp/FCC.html
15:38 < yoleaux> Face-centered Cubic Constructions (Rhombic Dodecahedra)
15:38 < fenn> needs more magnets
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15:41 < kanzure> 300 micron features isn't that bad
15:42 < fenn> beyond feature size is surface roughness, they are related but misunderstood
15:43 < fenn> you could have a surface with 150 micron finish and 300 micron feature size
15:43 < fenn> or you could have a surface with 2 micron finish and 300 micron feature size
15:43 < fenn> reprap has attacked this by soaking printed parts in solvent
15:44 < fenn> it seems to me that solvent would cause more "wear" on the point bits than the concave bits
15:44 < fenn> pointy*
15:47 < kanzure> was not impressed by https://github.com/SolidCode/SolidPython/blob/master/solid/screw_thread.py
15:49 < fenn> wow so DLP projectors are selling for $100-200 used now
15:49 < fenn> some as low as $50
15:50 < kanzure> i think the one i bought nmz787 was $70
15:50 < kanzure> or something
15:50 < fenn> nmz787: what do you think about cellphone screen + fresnel lens as a 3d printer?
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15:57 < kanzure> he doesn't actually use irc anymore
15:58 < kanzure> busy doing intel things or w/e
16:01 < kanzure> show me a better api
16:01 < kanzure> use autodesk's or solidwork's if necessary
16:01 < fenn> did you look at visual python?
16:02 < kanzure> a few years ago
16:02 < kanzure> meh http://vpython.org/contents/bounce_example.html
16:03 < kanzure> where's all the wire topology walking stuff
16:03 < fenn> http://vpython.org/contents/docs/box.html
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16:03 < fenn> wire topology what?
16:04 < fenn> oh you are talking about like OCC's FaceExplorer crap
16:05 < fenn> TopExp_Explorer
16:05 < fenn> let's just do the basics for now
16:07 < fenn> i could never get that TopoDS stuff to work anyway
16:08 < fenn> it's hard to learn how something is supposed to work when it crashes 50% of the time
16:09 < fenn> so, one way to do it would be method calls to a union object
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16:10 < fenn> c = cylinder(r=10, h=5) + cylinder(r=2, h=30); parting_line = edge(c.elements[0], c.elements[1])
16:11 < fenn> find_edge
16:11 < fenn> i dunno
16:13 < fenn> apt is a very old language for describing that sort of operation: http://www.archivist.info/apt/aptos/apt360/doc/manual/index.html
16:14 < fenn> it worked sort of like driving directions, "go forward until you hit this wall, turn right, take a left at the bevel"
16:20 < fenn> "visual APT" not to be confused with other programs http://sourceforge.net/projects/vapt/
16:21 < fenn> i'm not seriously suggesting using this, since it's written in fortran with huge numbers of GOTO statements and everyone involved is long dead
16:22 < fenn> but the language spec probably contains some wisdom of the ancients
16:22 < fenn> back when people knew math
16:32 < kanzure> what about the autolisp api
16:34 < kanzure> http://www.afralisp.net/reference/autocad-apis.php
16:34 < kanzure> oh brother "AcDbObjectPointer<AcDbBlockReference> pRef(_Id,AcDb::kForRead);"
16:35 < kanzure> .title http://ronleigh.com/autolisp/ahistory.htm
16:35 < yoleaux> History of AutoLISP
16:36 < kanzure> "Release 2 (Version 1.2)  --  April, 1983 Price was $1000.  The optional dimensioning add-on cost an extra $250."
16:36 < kanzure> "Added non-continuous linetypes, user-named layers, dragging, an isometric grid, and attributes as well as the commands SAVE, VSLIDE, MSLIDE, OSNAP, and MIRROR."
16:36 < kanzure> ah yes, the OSNAP command
16:43 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QbFguhEjhQ
16:43 < yoleaux> Free AutoCAD Tutorial - AutoLISP to create 3d Honda Jazz
16:44 < kanzure> is this as stupid as i think it is?
16:44 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A3jeDVcrIs
16:44 < yoleaux> First pacman game for AutoCAD (using Lisp programming)
16:45 < kanzure> this is also pretty dumb:
16:45 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmHu3EosT-s
16:45 < yoleaux> AutoCAD Transformer !!
16:45 < kanzure> what's the point if you don't actually show off your lisp
16:58 < kanzure> here's an old version of solidworks http://zwcad.com.tw/nick/3D/ and some windows software http://zwcad.com.tw/nick/MS-soft/ and some autolisp stuff http://zwcad.com.tw/nick/V-LISP/ http://zwcad.com.tw/nick/lisp/
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17:04 < kanzure> oh i see, autolisp was replaced in r15 with visual lisp
17:17 < kanzure> .title http://ephemeralvalue.com/?s=makepy
17:17 < yoleaux> Search results for 'makepy'
17:17 < kanzure> oops wrong page
17:17 < kanzure> should have been http://ephemeralvalue.com/2007/08/13/using-python-with-the-solidworks-api/
17:18 < kanzure> https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pyautocad
17:18 < kanzure> "acad.model.AddLine(p1, p2)" man is everyone braindead
17:18 < kanzure> https://github.com/reclosedev/pyautocad/tree/master/examples
17:38 < kanzure> In [3]: compare_version("7.24.1")
17:38 < kanzure> Out[3]: 1
17:38 < kanzure> what is that even supposed to mean >:(
17:41 < fenn> so i thought we were discussing the python-brlcad api, not autolisp
17:42 < fenn> and anyway i hear autolisp sucks
17:45 < kanzure> i was hoping that someone would have figured out a sane and rational cad api
17:45 < kanzure> how hard could it be? they are just shapes
17:45 < kanzure> toddlers are supposed to do this
17:45 < kanzure> opencascade don't have it; autocad's api is stuff like AddLine and AddCircle; solidworks is Make2DBoxThingPnt...
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17:46 < ParahSailin> kanzure: do i see a regex for parsing xml in there?
17:47 < fenn> what do stuff like ACIS and parasolid use
17:49 < kanzure> ParahSailin: where?
17:50 < ParahSailin> https://github.com/reclosedev/pyautocad/blob/master/examples/cable_list_from_schemes.py
17:51 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/python-brlcad/pull/29
18:09 < kanzure> fenn: brlcad is still a little weird to me; why is there librt/db_inmem.c e.g. why is an in-memory cad database explicitly tied into raytracing.. wouldn't that be useful even if you weren't raytracing?
18:12 < kanzure> "Dixon also explained his company’s big bet on wallet service Coinbase, which he likened to a Gmail for bitcoin" uh...
18:15 < dingo> haha
18:15 < dingo> thats the last thing i want
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18:21 < kanzure> ctypes is weird: import brlcad._bindings.librt as librt; dbi = librt.db_open_inmem();
18:22 < kanzure> dbi._type_._fields_ says dbi_version is a field of this struct
18:22 < kanzure> but you access it like this: dbi.contents.dbi_version
18:23 < dingo> well you'd have to look at their bindings, but if i had to guess, its actual "value" is probobly just a pointer, so you wouldn't want that, you want what it points to, so content is some binder for that
18:23 < dingo> -> vs . or whatever
18:24 < kanzure> unfortunately i'm the person who wrote the bindings
18:24 < dingo> lol
18:24 < dingo> then you are subject matter expert :-)
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18:29 < kanzure> most things in libwdb are mk_* but for some reason there's make_hole?
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18:39 < fenn> oh, "
18:39 < fenn> Autodesk Announces 'Spark' the 'Android of 3D Printing' & Their Very Own 3D Printer
18:40  * fenn catches up to 5 hours ago
18:42 < fenn> i'm running an "android mini pc" which is a gumstix sized thingy with an HDMI output port and some USB ports and a microSD card slot
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18:46 < heath> jrayhawk: ping
18:47 < fenn> it occurs to me that this would drive a DLP projector quite nicely, but there are no android 3d DLP printing apps as far as i can see (lots of reprap controllers and "3d printer news" apps but nothing that shows slices for a defined period of time and controls motors)
18:49 < kanzure> iirc there's an android-specific pocket projector thing
18:49 < fenn> sure, there's that too
18:50 < fenn> i had one that took mini-hdmi input
18:51 < fenn> i like the idea of "put your phone in this frame, plug in the usb, and you have a 3d printer"
18:52 < fenn> even if it's slow it's better than having no printer
18:52 < fenn> pico projectors are ~$200 which adds significantly to the cost
18:54 < fenn> i think i can design one that folds flat
18:54 < kanzure> i don't see a way to serialize this in-memory wdb dbp_i**
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19:00 < kanzure> guh? bu_vls_printf(&cmd, "wdb_open %s inmem [get_dbip]", MGED_INMEM_NAME);
19:00 < kanzure> Tcl_AppendResult(interpreter, bu_vls_addr(&msg), (char *)NULL);
19:02 < kanzure> i am tired of poorly designed crap
19:10 < kanzure> int db_dump(struct rt_wdb *wdbp, struct db_i *dbip) /* output */ /* iput */
19:10 < kanzure> *input
19:10 < kanzure> there we go
19:11 < kanzure> http://pub5.di.fm/di_progressive_aac?type=.flv is okay at the moment
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19:19 < kanzure> .g gareth jenkins
19:19 < yoleaux> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gareth_Jenkins
19:19 < kanzure> hrm that doesn't sound right
19:19 < kanzure> i mean this one: gjenkins971@gmail.com
19:25 < fenn> fluorescent molecules like curcumin absorb UV and emit green/yellow/whatever so can they be used as both UV absorbing dye and colorful pigment?
19:25 < fenn> you need a small amount of UV absorber to control light penetration depth into the resin bath
19:26 < fenn> there are some cheap visible light cure resins used for ... making keychains or something, anyway they are also full UV transparent to ensure rapid curing all the way through
19:26 < fenn> it might be the same stuff used for conformal coating circuit boards
19:27 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_coating#UV_curing_UV_Conformal_coatings
19:28 < fenn> i bring this up because we have a bit of a procurement problem with pre-made photo cure resin
19:30 < kanzure> fenn, what was wrong with this?
19:30 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/python-brlcad/blob/master/examples/wdb_example.py
19:30 < fenn> i don't want to rely exclusively on bucktown polymers, and apparently they only sell by the gallon now ($175/gal)
19:30 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/python-brlcad/blob/master/brlcad/wdb.py
19:31 < fenn> 470nm to IR cured resins are available by special order in larger volumes (40-200Kg+)
19:34 < fenn> kanzure: too many words, bizarre "interact with database" semantics (why are the names in quotes instead of just python objects?)
19:34 < kanzure> the names?
19:34 < fenn> '"ball.s"' '"box.s"'
19:35 < kanzure> how else are you going to pass a string?
19:35 < fenn> why are you passing a string at all
19:35 < kanzure> 'cause the api asks for it
19:35 < fenn> it should be ball = brlfoo.sphere(center=(1, 2, 3), radius=0.75)
19:35 < kanzure> some string, any value
19:36 < fenn> ok i can't take this digital imported anymore
19:36 < kanzure> quality varies dramatically
19:38 < fenn> what does   "is_region=True" do?
19:40 < fenn> why is "hole" a primitive and what shape is it? (cylinder i guess?)
19:40 < fenn> or is it shaped like the box + ball union?
19:41 < fenn> i guess you're cutting a cylinder out of the box + ball union
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19:51 < fenn> bitwise operator overloading makes more sense for CSG than arithmetic operators: http://wiki.python.org/moin/BitwiseOperators‎
19:51 < fenn> i have no idea what bit shift would do, but & | ~ ^ all have well known meanings
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19:55 < fenn> then you get things like &= and operator precedence for free
19:57 < fenn> perhaps arithmetic operators could be used for transformations, like translation or scaling
19:58 < fenn> (cube(1) + [1,0,0])*5
19:58 < kanzure> "Survivability/Lethality Analysis Directorate, ARL"
19:58 < fenn> different thing from (cube(1)*5 + [1,0,0]*5)
19:59 < fenn> oh wait no they're the same
19:59 < fenn> it's rotation that's not commutative
20:00 < fenn> since rotation takes 2 arguments it doesn't fit into the arithmetic operator scheme
20:03 < kanzure> oh that's right, you can't extrude a sketch in brlcad
20:07 < kanzure> argh
20:07 < fenn> how do you extrude something then?
20:08 < kanzure> you can only extrude surfaces, but a sketch isn't a surface
20:08 < fenn> and there's no way to "make it so"?
20:08 < kanzure> this is how i expect to cad under normal circumstances: http://www.freecadweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=PartDesign_Bearingholder_Tutorial_II
20:08 < kanzure> "Create a new part in the PartDesign workbench. Rename the Body that is created by default to Skeleton. This Body is probably activated already, which you can see by the blue background colour in the feature tree. Create a new sketch on the YZ plane containing the outline of the shaft, bearing and sealing rings. After finishing the sketch, make a revolution feature from it. This skeleton feature will later be used to reference the real ...
20:09 < kanzure> ... geometry to it. This means that if you want to change any dimensions, all you need to do is adjust the skeleton feature's dimensions and the rest of the part will update accordingly."
20:09 < fenn> i've seen that part everywhere
20:09 < kanzure> i don't want to have to think about how many spheres and in what variations it takes to approximate my base sketch
20:09 < fenn> there aren't any spheres in that part
20:10 < kanzure> whatever
20:10 < heath> the vision2+ is nice, hope we can get the crazyflie to operate similarly
20:10 < kanzure> circles.
20:11 < heath> the vision2 makes all your papers go flying around the living room... if that's where you happen to be flying it
20:11 < heath> ..and you have loose papers scattered on a table
20:11 < heath> another random tidbit of info, per usual
20:12 < heath> jrayhawk: when you get time, i messaged you privately about gnusha
20:12 < heath> login stuff
20:13 < fenn> kanzure: uh, that sort of workflow is probably not going to work in brlcad
20:15 < fenn> " You don't want that to happen to your model, especially after putting on a lot of fillets!
20:15 < fenn> because OCC operations have side effects?
20:15 < fenn> i mean why wouldnt you be able to just go back and add the draft
20:18 < kanzure> huh?
20:18 < kanzure> freecad definitely lets you go back and edit the sketch
20:18 < kanzure> after extrusion
20:18 < fenn> ok cool
20:18 < kanzure> oh, but it crashes if you press too many buttons about that (i was just trying it)
20:18 < fenn> does freecad actually work now? if so why are we messing around with brlcad
20:18 < kanzure> because opencascade is intractable
20:20 < fenn> (aside, the real reason cast parts have rounded edges is so the crystallization planes don't line up and create internal stress fractures as the part cools)
20:20 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9IdZ2pI5dA&t=130s
20:20 < yoleaux> Hybrid ( Additive and Subtractive manufacturing) machine by DMG Mori
20:22 < kanzure> wtf? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9IdZ2pI5dA&t=3m39s
20:24 < fenn> that thing has all the toys
20:24 < kanzure> it has two separate tool changer things
20:24 < kanzure> and they have doors
20:24 < kanzure> how adorable
20:24 < fenn> what no fillets
20:25 < kanzure> "Warning: any movement of said machine will trigger NSA alert"
20:26 < kanzure> oh yeah, you missed that one
20:26 < kanzure> apparently they do that now
20:26 < kanzure> but with accelerometers/gyros that cause vendor-induced lock-up in the cnc machine
20:27 < kanzure> so that they can monetize you moving it across the shop floor
20:27 < not_un> yow
20:27 < not_un> that's some cory doctorow shit
20:28 < fenn> the metal dust goes in a straight line because of inertia i guess
20:29 < fenn> did you see the thing about cheap titanium powder
20:30 < fenn> someone (finally) did the process where you go straight from rutile to titanium dust by electrolysis, instead of all the ridiculous TiCl sponge melt remelt remelt remelt billet stuff
20:30 < fenn> so expect to see a lot more titanium in the future
20:31 < not_un> 3d metamaterial printer
20:31 < fenn> i wish they had a more interesting demo part
20:32 < fenn> also i think i'd cover my exposed precision ground metallic surfaces before blasting melted metal everywhere
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20:40 < fenn> can i run android 2.1 .apk's on android 4.x?
20:51 < kanzure> yes
20:52 < fenn> why are so many apps designed for 4.x instead of 2.x?
20:52 < kanzure> unless that apk was device-specific
20:52 < kanzure> because developers have lost their 2.x phones or they died
20:52 < fenn> i can't run half of the things in f-droid
20:52 < kanzure> so now they only have 4.x phones, and they don't want to bother testing on a bajillion devices
20:53 < fenn> there is only one browser available for 2.x and it blows
20:53 < kanzure> also, there are android 4.0 features that are not available in 2.x
20:53 < fenn> sure but i doubt they are really that important for these apps
20:54 < kanzure> you can use smali and baksmali to rip it apart and rewrite those apps to be 2.x-compatible if you'd like
20:54 < kanzure> sometimes this can be achieved by just editing the xml manifest file
20:55 < fenn> does it make sense to install 4.0 on a device that originally shipped with 2.1 (is that even possible?)
20:55 < kanzure> it's only possible if you have root and a bootloader or something
20:56 < kanzure> you might have to use an exploit
20:56 < kanzure> cyanogenmod often has information about which devices are capable of running 4.0 stuff
20:56 < fenn> i wish manufacturers would use actual model numbers for their products
20:56 < kanzure> (cyanogenmod 10 compatibility is a good proxy for android 4.x compatibility)
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20:57 < fenn> is cyanogen not android?
20:58 < fenn> is this just some trademark crap
20:58 < kanzure> they compile their own kernels and lots of custom software, but the kernels are derivative of android
20:58 < fenn> "roboweasel"
20:58 < kanzure> also they include lots of nifty developer things
20:58 < fenn> what's the purpose of the custom kernels?
20:59 < kanzure> and "advanced" options that should have been available in the factory default software, except weren't, because they hate users
20:59 < kanzure> oh, just enabling/disabling different device features n' stuff
20:59 < kanzure> you can't always wait for google to merge upstream linux kernel stuff into the android kernel
20:59 < kanzure> because they have a long release cycle too
20:59 < fenn> eh, i just want the device to be able to do what it's supposed to do
21:00 < fenn> i don't care about advanced linux kernel features
21:00 < kanzure> cyanogenmod is worth it
21:00 < fenn> so cyanogen only lists the LCD screen nook tablets
21:01 < fenn> i'm sort of confused about what i'm actually running
21:03 < fenn> http://download.doozan.com/nook/NookManager-0.5.0.zip with barnes and noble firmware 1.2
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21:08 < fenn> can i install a new kernel independently of "android"?
21:08 < kanzure> if you use an okay bootloader, i believe the answer is yes
21:10 < fenn> are android users expected to install new versions of android on their phone or is this a hacker thing?
21:10 < kanzure> hacker thing
21:10 < fenn> so there's literally no manufacturer-sanctioned upgrade path
21:11 < kanzure> there's "OTA" (over the air) updates but mostly manufacturers don't do it
21:11 < fenn> i can understand not supporting a product, but for the entire industry to be "throwaway" is kinda nuts
21:12 < kanzure> malware is everywhere
21:12 < fenn> uh, so?
21:12 < not_un> yeah, samsung would rather churn you into an S5 rather than updating the s4
21:13 < not_un> someone made an elegant graph illustrating this point
21:13 < fenn> $$++ >> $$--
21:13 < fenn> much dollar. very elegant.
21:13 < not_un> jellybean 4.1 came out in the first 6 months of the galaxy sii, but didn't become available OTA for another, like... 8 months?
21:14 < not_un> or buy a s3, knucklehead
21:14 < kanzure> "very elegant" is not dogespeak
21:14 < fenn> "so easy."
21:15 < fenn> .tr en doge "very elegant"
21:15 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, that command (.tr) crashed.
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21:15 < fenn> so i got a "lapdock" today, it's pretty well made, and very thin
21:16 < fenn> the keyboard actually has the keys in the right places
21:16 < fenn> waiting on micro-HDMI adapter
21:17 < fenn> i had this epiphany that finally interfaces are small enough that you can build a laptop out of interchangeable parts with nothing but velcro and usb cables
21:18 < fenn> but it generalizes to wearable computing because the components are small enough and light enough to wear comfortably
21:18 < fenn> screen vs glasses then becomes a matter of choice
21:22 < fenn> software version: "unavailable" wtf is that
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21:59 < kanzure>   #     #   #### ####   ### #     # ####   ##  ##  ##
22:00 < kanzure> they could do better
22:02 < Viper168> who is cad
22:02 < Viper168> did he get arrested too?
22:02 < Viper168> like mitnik
22:05  * bkero waves from Bangalore
22:06 < not_un> fenn, holy fuck
22:06 < not_un> COMPUVEST
22:06 < delinquentme> Are you guys using VPNs?
22:06 < FourFire> delinquentme, no
22:07 < FourFire> fenn, what sort of performance are you looking at?
22:08 < juri_> implicitcad!
22:08 < FourFire> I've come to the realization that if you've got a wall to plug into, you can essentially copy every other aspect of a laptop using desktop parts in a SFF build
22:08 < FourFire> I call it a "laptop replacement"
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22:13 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:14 < fenn> yes the lack of PCIe for ARM processors makes getting a good GPU difficult if not impossible
22:14 < fenn> they often have 3d coprocessors but there's no way to access them because it's all locked up under NDA
22:14 < catern> http://www.theonion.com/articles/pharmaceutical-industry-reeling-as-more-moms-makin,36028/
22:15 < fenn> i wish
22:17 < fenn> if we could get prople to do this, polio would be dead in no time
22:17 < fenn> prple people
22:17 < xmj> mmm
22:17 < xmj> anyone here work for google europe?
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22:22 < kanzure> "The clean room contains the steppers for photolithography, etching, cleaning, doping and dicing machines. All these devices are extremely precise and thus extremely expensive. Prices for most common pieces of equipment for the processing of 300 mm wafers range from $700,000 to upwards of $4,000,000 each with a few pieces of equipment reaching as high as $50,000,000 each (e.g. steppers)."
22:22 < kanzure> haha "it's expensive because it's precise"
22:23 < kanzure> "Typically an advance in chip-making technology requires a completely new fab to be built. In the past, the equipment to outfit a fab was not terribly expensive and there were a huge number of smaller fabs producing chips in small quantities. However, the cost of the most up-to-date equipment has since grown to the point where a new fab can cost several billion dollars."
22:23 < kanzure> i don't understand the source of the cost inflation
22:23 < not_un> really
22:23 < not_un> you don't understand it?
22:23 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dvuvjosdzbyjttfn] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:24 < not_un> I remember seeing a story somewhere about a scientific equipment company that was making a very nice SEM for like 40k
22:24 -!- Adifex is now known as Adifex|zzz
22:24 < not_un> and the sales rep said they had such trouble selling them
22:24 < not_un> so...
22:24 < not_un> they quadrupled the price
22:24 < not_un> and labs were snapping them up left and right
22:25 < not_un> there are only a few major fabricators
22:26 < kanzure> that's not an explanation
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22:26 < not_un> you're right, I just wanted to mention it
22:27 < kanzure> who are
22:27 < kanzure> you
22:27 < not_un> I DONT KNOW
22:28 < cluckj> TIL handling tinier shit requires more money
22:28 < cluckj> I wonder if it's proportional
22:28 < kanzure> the actual cost is probably the same
22:29 < kanzure> i think that all the money being dumped into bitcoin asic mining equipment could be shifted to be dumped into cheap asic fabrication equipment
22:29 < not_un> I guess it's probably the value of the machinery
22:29 < not_un> rather than material costs
22:29 < not_un> Intel needs to pay 400 million for a new chip fab
22:29 < kanzure> it's probably because the people building the fabs are morons and don't know that they have arranged for perverse incentives in the market
22:29 < not_un> but stands to make 8 billion or w/e
22:30 < not_un> ah
22:30 < ParahSailin> 22nm is incredibly hard
22:30 < kanzure> it's not like they throw their engineers at the problem of procurement
22:30 < ParahSailin> nobody knows how the fuck they do lithography, its all top secret proprietary tech
22:30 < juri_> we have a SEM at HacDC.
22:31 < ParahSailin> its so low below the diffraction limit in like vacuum uv/soft xray etc
22:31 < kanzure> i don't think i need 22nm
22:31 < fenn> electron laser holograms
22:31  * fenn throws words around
22:32 < cluckj> purple monkey dishwasher
22:32 < ParahSailin> ohh, i know, fib
22:32 < kanzure> weird thing is that asics are easier to build than fpgas or gpus
22:32 < fenn> but seriously you can make a coherent electron beam and flash the whole chip at once
22:32 < ParahSailin> fenn: raster is slow
22:32 < fenn> fib would take for ever
22:32 < ParahSailin> yeah fib im totally joking
22:33 < fenn> hologram isn't raster, hence the "holo" part
22:33 < ParahSailin> electron beam thats not raster?
22:33 < fenn> weird isn't it
22:34 < kanzure> optical holography exists, you know
22:34 < fenn> we just established that 22nm was below the diffraction limit
22:34 < fenn> of optics
22:34 < fenn> of visible light optics
22:34 < fenn> blergh
22:34 < cluckj> tiny elephants with tiny paintbrushes
22:35 < fenn> x-rays are just electron beam fluorescence
22:35 < fenn> actually contact lithography is not a bad idea
22:35 < fenn> etch an elephant hide with a FIB and use it as a stamp
22:36 < cluckj> elephants sitting on silicon wafers
22:36 < cluckj> a trillion dollar industry
22:36 < fenn> hundred billion, don't get ahead of yourself
22:36 < cluckj> I was dreaming big
22:37 < cluckj> they'll be a race for genetically engineering the elephant with the fattest, flattest ass
22:37 < cluckj> we can get in on the ground floor dudes...
22:37 < fenn> a goose that lays a silicon egg
22:38 < cluckj> ugh
22:38 < kanzure> i wonder if "take all the industries with stupid equipment economics, and undercut everything" is a rational strategy
22:38 < fenn> not a long term strategy but who cares
22:39 < fenn> also, patents
22:39 < cluckj> economics isn't entirely rational
22:39 < kanzure> this problem happens everywhere
22:39 < kanzure> where there are fat 10,000% margins over actual costs
22:39 < kanzure> i don't think it's all just patents, because a lot of the equipment is off patent and super old
22:39 < cluckj> that's capitalism 101
22:40 < fenn> the peachy printer is impressively low-tech http://youtube.com/watch?v=80HsW4HmUes
22:40 < kanzure> well, there's some equipment where this isn't true, though
22:40 < kanzure> so "capitalism 101" is not an adequate explanation
22:40 < fenn> it doesn't even have an "off" switch
22:40 < cluckj> lol
22:40 < fenn> something something supply demand
22:41 < cluckj> extracting surplus value out of every possible space in the supply and demand chain is capitalism 101
22:41 < fenn> do you even know what those words mean?
22:41 < kanzure> it's not just supply/demand, i think
22:42 < cluckj> yes
22:42 < fenn> the "somebody else's money" effect plays a large part
22:42 < kanzure> the actual "supply" of photolithography equipment in the world totally dwarves any conceivable reason that semiconductor fabs need $20 million photolithography setups (save for the top secret next-next-next generation crap)
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22:44 < cluckj> if companies want to make new chips, they need to buy the setup
22:44 < kanzure> this is all just knowledge arbitration and price markup
22:45 < cluckj> yes
22:45 < fenn> i read various silicon roadmap papers that were doubting 25nm was enough improvement over 40nm to justify the cost, and 40nm devices would end up being higher performance per dollar
22:47 < xmj> when old companies fail to innovate, new market entrants will pop in, have stashes of cash ready to invest, and go with the best
22:48 < kanzure> in some cases, i can imagine that for certain types of capital equipment, the margin has to be that high because of all of the intermediate steps in the chain between different companies
22:48 < kanzure> because i bet that some equipment is not made by a single company, and they are just clueless and don't know how to do it all
22:48 < kanzure> so they outsource different aspects, and in return they end up making a shitty $20,000 product that has a cpu from 1987
22:49 < kanzure> and a custom keyboard that was designed by a 2 year old because the boss was too busy puking up a hangover
22:52 < kanzure> and in other cases, there's just a handful of 100-500 people in the world that have built that equipment and they know that the industry always outsources to them, so they probably do some knowledge arbitration markup
22:52 < fenn> sandy grew up to run the company after her dad died
22:52 < kanzure> oh yeah, and that
22:53 < not_un> you're right, it's arbitrage
22:53 < fenn> the commodification of something
22:54 < kanzure> a desktop semiconductor fab should be doable
22:54 < kanzure> ("but how can you possibly ever invest enough money to compress a billion dollar fab down that small?")
22:54 < not_un> why would they cut off their own legs
22:54 < fenn> it's the same reason we don't have fusion reactors
22:54 < juri_> kanzure: workng on it.
22:55 < not_un> part of their price advantage is the relative obscurity of their equipment
22:55 < not_un> UBIQUITOUSLY OBSCURE
22:55 < kanzure> inkjets are also obscure, but they're on practically every desk
22:56 < juri_> my apologies for my slow typing: carpel tunnel trouble.
22:56 < kanzure> your elbows should be pointing to tau ceti and wolf 359
22:56 < juri_> TROUBLE^2.
22:56 < kanzure> this is the only proper way to type
22:57 < juri_> get fenn to meet with me and mirage at hacdc.
22:57 < kanzure> you're not really compatible
22:58 < juri_> howso?
22:59 < kanzure> it's too late for me to figure out the exact reasons why
22:59 < juri_> kk. :)
23:00 < kanzure> anyway, if it is knowledge arbitration, it's dumb because in the vast majority of the cases the equipment is braindead simple (like a thermocycler)
23:00 < juri_> just built a mendelmax 2.
23:00 < not_un> dumb for who
23:01 < kanzure> it's dumb because it's an obvious farce
23:01 < kanzure> "well, technical equipment is extremely complicated, and therefore..." nope
23:01 < not_un> okay
23:01 < kanzure> "it's extremely complicated" is often one of the reasons used for justifying weird procurement choices
23:01 < not_un> but this stupid creates a market imbalance that pulls capital in
23:02 < not_un> the logic of capital is often different from the logic of human progress
23:02 < not_un> rent seeking and inefficiencies
23:02 < kanzure> that's nice that you're able to recognize that they can get money, but i don't understand why you're mentioning that to me
23:02 < not_un> 99% sure they have the 12 nm dies ready to rock
23:03 < not_un> but only after the 16s are mid-cycle
23:03 < kanzure> i am also not talking about a logic of human progress
23:03 < fenn> guh the comments on this make me so sad http://hackaday.com/2013/10/23/3d-printering-a-call-for-an-open-source-automated-build-platform/
23:03 < fenn> i was part of the discussions that resulted in that conveyor belt idea
23:04 < fenn> we were talking about using the belt as the Y axis
23:07 < kanzure> "rent seeking" w/ thermocyclers is just totally irrelevant; you can throw some lightbulbs and resistors into a box and bypass their "rent seeking" and then you don't care
23:08 < fenn> thermocycler what
23:08 < fenn> you know about the idaho lightbulb-in-a-box patent
23:08 < kanzure> huh?
23:08 < not_un> and then you violated the contract
23:08 < kanzure> i don't want to confirm or deny knowledge of that patent, fuck you
23:09 < not_un> kanzure when was the last time you took a big dump
23:09 < not_un> like pooped a lot
23:09 < not_un> SOMETIMES CONSTIPATION MAKES PEOPLE GRUMPY
23:09 < kanzure> i hate you and i want you to die
23:09 < not_un> <3
23:09 < kanzure> telling me "well that's capitalism" is totally boring fuck you
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23:10 < kanzure> "well that's capitalism" is a shitty excuse for not building transhuman tech
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23:10 < kanzure> what are you even doing here
23:10 < cluckj> that light bulb thermocycler does not work so well
23:10 < kanzure> how do you live with yourself
23:10 < kanzure> i am not here for your amusement
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23:10 < fenn> cluckj: i used one for a year and it worked great, better than any other pcr machine
23:10 < not_un> that's what you think
23:10 < kanzure> not_un: please try to be more constructive
23:10 < fenn> i'm talking about the idaho system glass capillary thermocycler
23:11 < cluckj> oh
23:11 < not_un> and one must accurately comprehend the present in order to predict and understand the future
23:11 < cluckj> I'm talking about a 65W bulb and a computer fan
23:11 < fenn> you can build one pretty easily since it's just a light bulb, a fan, and a temperature sensor
23:11 < not_un> I'll lurk moar then
23:11 < kanzure> prediction is lame, just build whatever you want
23:11 < fenn> the diybio thing with a pvc pipe fitting is not a bad design, but the thermal mass of the eppendorf tubes lowers the cycle rate somewhat
23:12 < kanzure> all the other transhumanists are busy "predicting" things, but they haven't done squat in 50 years
23:12 < not_un> "donny, shut the fuck up"
23:12 < ParahSailin> wow, old timey thermocyclers that use heat exchange to cool instead of peltier
23:12 < kanzure> the difference is building equipment
23:12 < ParahSailin> such steampunk
23:12 < fenn> waterpunk?
23:12 < fenn> (seapunk)
23:12 < cluckj> the thermal mass of the entire thing slows the ramp speed down a whole lot
23:12 < kanzure> cpunk.. cypherpunks.
23:13 < fenn> ah well that's easy enough, add kaowool insulation
23:13 < cluckj> it's got to cool down, too
23:13 < fenn> the idaho system had these 3mm glass tubes that you melted shut with a bunsen burner, and your pcr mix was inside
23:14 < fenn> when the reaction finished you broke the tube open and somehow the mix came out, i don't remember
23:14 < cluckj> lol
23:15 < cluckj> that sounds like a better, but more difficult plan
23:15 < fenn> beats buying some special purpose plastic pcr tube that sucks anyway
23:16 < fenn> you don't need any oil or anything because it's sealed in such a small volume
23:16 < cluckj> yeah
23:16 < fenn> i think the idea that it's made of glass scares people
23:17 < fenn> you can drop them from a 1.5m lab bench onto a tile floor, no problem
23:17 < sheena> anyone interested in about 20 1000W lights with shades and ballasts?
23:18 < fenn> gee i wonder what that was for :X
23:18 < cluckj> I put an nmr tube into my hand in ochem by accident
23:18 < cluckj> dropping tubes doesn't worry me.....
23:18 < fenn> i was born with the nmr tube scar
23:18 < sheena> fenn: tomatoes, obviously ;) not my stuff, just came with land a friend bought, trying to get it into the hands of someone who wont throw it out
23:19 < cluckj> my scar is gone now :(
23:19 < fenn> damn now the machines will be able to identify my body, DELETE DELETE
23:20 < cluckj> oh no
23:21 < sheena> who could i pay to put some electrodes in my dog's brain to give me "yay" receptor activation? there's lots of groups doing deep brain stimulation stuff, so there's bound to be one focused on animals
23:22 < fenn> now i am afraid of you
23:22 < kanzure> i suggested she ask in here
23:22 < kanzure> for obvious reasons
23:22 < sheena> cause i have dope growing supplies and a dog? :D
23:23 < fenn> because i know what a tasp is and why it's classified as a weapon
23:24 < sheena> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasp ?
23:24 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead_(science_fiction)
23:24 < kanzure> fenn might have ideas about your cheese dispenser too
23:25 < sheena> oh that is fiction tho
23:25 < kanzure> she needs a mechanism to spray the spraycan cheese into doggy mouths, probably hooked up to a microcontroller
23:25 < fenn> just feed them magnethorheological cheese and use a magnetic coil as the actuator
23:25 < sheena> i want it real plz
23:25 < fenn> not as fiction as you might think
23:26 < sheena> ok
23:26 < kanzure> these people probably do it http://animalresearch.ubc.ca/
23:27 < fenn> http://www.quora.com/Bradley-Voytek/Posts/The-most-unethical-study-Ive-ever-seen
23:27 < ParahSailin> have you considered negative reinforcement
23:28 < ParahSailin> shock therapy is very effective in jellyfish and octopus training
23:28 < ParahSailin> the hardware is very simple
23:28 < not_un> okay, I see we've got some hard accerationists in the channel
23:28 < sheena> shock in dogs is super common
23:29 < sheena> im not too interested tho
23:29 < kanzure> not_un: "accerationists" ?
23:29 < sheena> they only have a couple dogs, if any, .. mostly rats/mice there
23:30 < not_un> making the singularity come about as quickly as possible
23:30 < ParahSailin> you could rig up a vibrator for mechanical reproductive stimulation as positive reinforcement too
23:30 < ParahSailin> hardware much easier than cheese dispenser
23:30 < not_un> beyond what would be considered standard moral/ethical boundaries
23:30 < kanzure> not_un: not necessarily; that would imply some overwhelming focus on "ai"
23:30 < ParahSailin> not_un: no, that is my designated role here
23:31 < not_un> because the greater good of the singularity would outweigh any and all suffering incurred en route
23:31 < kanzure> uh.. no.,
23:31 < kanzure> go away before you hurt me
23:31 < kanzure> how could you POSSIBLY have come to that conclusion
23:31 < kanzure> we haven't even mentioned suffering
23:31 < not_un> i only hurt the ones i love
23:31 < kanzure> you're really awful at this thinking thing
23:31 < cluckj> wut
23:31 < kanzure> this is why we can't have nice things man
23:31 < fenn> sheena: yeah i'd just use a RC car transmitter and servo motor
23:32 < kanzure> fenn: have you seen the spray can cheese?
23:32 < fenn> bend a paperclip around the cheese nozzle
23:32 < kanzure> oh
23:32 < kanzure> how would it move?
23:32 < sheena> i cant imagine reproductive stimulation would give me the same behavioural effects as food?
23:32 < ParahSailin> magnitude better!
23:32 < fenn> the servo motors usually have a plastic arm thingy that you can hook a bent wire through
23:32 < sheena> fenn: sure.. but how to mount it to the dog?
23:32 < fenn> i dunno, that's dog stuff, not my specialty
23:32 < sheena> lol
23:32 < cluckj> tape?
23:32 < kanzure> probably a dog hat
23:32 < ParahSailin> without the messiness of an aerosolized food product
23:33 < fenn> a dog hat :)
23:33 < cluckj> yes...dog hat is better
23:33 < fenn> like one of those beer hats
23:33 < not_un> stainless steel surgical posts
23:33 < ParahSailin> a hat like the doge of venice wears
23:33 < kanzure> .g doge of venice
23:33 < yoleaux> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge_of_Venice
23:33 < sheena> ParahSailin: i can hypothosize that there would be behavioural drift? harder to get searching/seeking type behaviours if they're being rewarded with repro?
23:34 < cluckj> doge of venice really needs a doge meme on it
23:34 < ParahSailin> there is one
23:34 < fenn> http://interretialia.tumblr.com/post/75040939537/talis-cane-s-venetiarum-such-doge-of-venice
23:34 < cluckj> excellent
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23:35 < cluckj> yesssss
23:35 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o fenn] by kanzure
23:35 < cluckj> such hat
23:35 < not_un> sheena, http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaping_(psychology)
23:35 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: ban not_un if he keeps acting like a moron, good night
23:36 < sheena> not_un: yeah, i understand behaviour sciennce..
23:36 <@ParahSailin> try it with your sample population, feed the non-performant subjects to the selected breeders; repeat until desired behavior
23:37 < cluckj> or......................................brain electrodes
23:37 < sheena> loll
23:37 <@fenn> you could make an automated crack pipe
23:37 < sheena> zzz]
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