--- Log opened Sat May 17 00:00:07 2014 00:03 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:07 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:11 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:12 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-78-149-133-99.as13285.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:19 <@fenn> who's going to maker faire? 00:21 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:22 -!- Mokstar [~Mokstar@unaffiliated/mokstar] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:52 <@fenn> i wrote to the cleverpet people and they are down to hang out at maker faire with people interested in genetics and intelligence. talk to dan knudsen and leo trottier 00:53 <@fenn> cleverpet is the dog blinkenlights game 00:53 <@fenn> for dogs 00:53 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-67-176-51-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:55 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@67.176.51.230] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:59 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:04 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:08 -!- Mokstar [~Mokstar@c-24-21-241-171.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:08 -!- Mokstar [~Mokstar@c-24-21-241-171.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:08 -!- Mokstar [~Mokstar@unaffiliated/mokstar] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:19 -!- Mokstar [~Mokstar@unaffiliated/mokstar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:56 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:02 < delinquentme> fenn, a number of CCL people are going to be there 02:17 < delinquentme> KR: It's amazing. They have turned investment banking into this two-year bootcamp for adulthood. They teach you to make powerpoint slides and Excel spreadsheets. 02:17 * delinquentme impressed 02:17 < delinquentme> http://www.vox.com/2014/5/15/5720596/how-wall-street-recruits-so-many-insecure-ivy-league-grads 02:20 < gradstudentbot> That's definitely not repeatable. 02:28 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@pool-173-74-79-151.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:44 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-78-149-133-99.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:58 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:26 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:08 -!- abetusk [~abe@208.184.72.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:26 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:30 -!- ielo [~ielo@134.219.227.35] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:42 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ljqnmnkbdrefisxx] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 04:55 <@fenn> "I got arrested calling 911 for help!" https://medium.com/human-parts/9f53ef6a1c10 some of you may know peretz 06:20 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:35 < kanzure> 836M /home/kanzure/local/opencascade/oce/src/llvm-output/ 06:37 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:40 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 06:42 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:44 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:53 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:59 < kanzure> pydot has a terrible api 06:59 < kanzure> graph.get_node(e1.get_source())[0].get_label() 06:59 < kanzure> get get get 07:36 < kanzure> ugh it is taking 10 seconds to parse each dot file, this will take 14 hours.. 07:38 < ParahSailin> kanzure: in the old days, these stockpiles would be tanks rather than cars, so at least theres that 07:42 < kanzure> i wonder if these lots are looted 07:42 < kanzure> none of them have stereos 07:45 < ParahSailin> it reminds me of something out of kevin carson 07:45 < ParahSailin> they need a war to soak off excess production 07:50 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:55 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@154.122.95.21] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:58 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:59 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@234-103-15.connect.netcom.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:03 < kanzure> 210 MB of edges :| 08:06 < kanzure> "So what we do is accelerate your graphs to 37.1 GeV, then we look at where the edges and nodes cluster together when they collide on the supermassive phosphor screen." 08:06 < poppingtonic> ping gradstudentbot 08:06 < gradstudentbot> The culture got contaminated. 08:08 < poppingtonic> what? 08:11 < ebowden> LOL 08:15 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@234-103-15.connect.netcom.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:27 -!- kuldeepdhaka_ [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:28 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:30 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:30 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@234-103-15.connect.netcom.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:31 -!- ParahSailin [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:31 -!- ParahSailin [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:44 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@154.122.95.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:10 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:24 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:25 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:29 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:31 < kanzure> fenn: hplusroadmap.draft should be put into the wiki 09:53 < kanzure> geeze do i really not have any text-based graph analysis tools? 09:59 -!- kuldeepdhaka_ [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:16 < kanzure> sha256 vhdl file http://opencores.org/websvn,filedetails?repname=nfhc&path=%2Fnfhc%2Ftrunk%2Fsha256%2Fsha256.vhdl 10:17 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:22 < kanzure> that file is shorter than i expected 10:22 < kanzure> i wonder if you could dump the blockchain data to asic, it's not like it's going to change 10:22 < kanzure> (i don't mean normal-kind-of ROM) 10:28 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:44 < FourFire> kanzure, you'd have to gradually make new ASICs as time passes 10:44 < FourFire> unless you chose a cutoffpoint, and just have the last, most recent blocks in a tiny amount of memory 10:48 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:01 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@95.5.96.151] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:01 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@95.5.96.151] has quit [Changing host] 11:01 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:31 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:34 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:39 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:43 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:48 < kanzure> opencascade callgraph data (6 MB) http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/opencascade/callgraphs.tar.xz 11:49 < kanzure> (it's a 2-file tarbomb) 11:53 -!- Mokstar [~Mokstar@c-24-21-241-171.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:53 -!- Mokstar [~Mokstar@c-24-21-241-171.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:53 -!- Mokstar [~Mokstar@unaffiliated/mokstar] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:08 -!- entelechy [~elysium@181.194.136.65] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:11 < kanzure> http://www.csn.ul.ie/~mel/projects/codeviz/ "At some stage in everyone's programming career, they will need to read through a lot of code written by another programmer. An important part of program comprehension is building a picture of how the program is structured from a high-level view and call graphs can be an invaluable aid when building this piecture. This is particularly useful if the original programmer uses clear function names." 12:11 < kanzure> "If they do not use clear function names, you are fucked." 12:11 -!- _0bitcount [~big-byte@213.37.172.228.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:20 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:32 -!- Mokstar [~Mokstar@unaffiliated/mokstar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:32 -!- Mokstar [~Mokstar@c-24-21-241-171.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:32 -!- Mokstar [~Mokstar@c-24-21-241-171.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:32 -!- Mokstar [~Mokstar@unaffiliated/mokstar] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:38 -!- Mokstar [~Mokstar@unaffiliated/mokstar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:39 -!- Mokstar [~Mokstar@unaffiliated/mokstar] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:50 -!- Mokstar [~Mokstar@unaffiliated/mokstar] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:07 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:13 < FourFire> That's a main reason why I'm discouraged from programming: I'm terrible at making names for things 13:16 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:34 < superkuh> paperbot: http://iopscience.iop.org/1347-4065/14/S1/351/pdf/1347-4065_14_S1_351.pdf 13:35 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/58fa7e712da1811310eb51712757daad.pdf 13:35 -!- Adifex|zzz is now known as Adifex 13:36 -!- augur [~augur@50.246.71.61] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:47 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:55 -!- Mokstar [~Mokstar@unaffiliated/mokstar] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:06 <@jrayhawk> FourFire: you can't possibly be worse than actual programmers 14:06 <@jrayhawk> consider: GNU 14:06 < FourFire> I don't get your reference 14:06 < FourFire> it's Gnome something something 14:06 < FourFire> I hate the puns though 14:06 <@jrayhawk> good 14:07 < FourFire> "The GNU world Order has come!" 14:07 <@jrayhawk> .wik GNU 14:07 < yoleaux> "GNU i/ɡnuː/ is a Unix-like computer operating system developed by the GNU Project." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU 14:09 <@jrayhawk> this bot does not have an acronym lookup 14:10 <@jrayhawk> .w GNU 14:10 < yoleaux> gnu (/(g)nuː, (g)njuː/): n. A large dark antelope with a long head, a beard and mane, and a sloping back — http://is.gd/ioxp1V 14:10 <@jrayhawk> piffle 14:41 < kanzure> .title http://tracker.dev.opencascade.org/view.php?id=24923 14:41 < yoleaux> 0024923: BRepMesh_CircleTool produces bad circles 15:05 -!- augur [~augur@50.246.71.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09 < sapiosexual> jrayhawk, "Gnu's Not Unix"? 15:10 < sapiosexual> The MIT crowd seemed to produce a lot of recursive acronyms... 15:10 -!- ielo [~ielo@134.219.227.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:10 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15 -!- _0bitcount [~big-byte@213.37.172.228.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:48 < kanzure> oh that's interesting, i think opencascade just does pass-through for brep basic shapes to the underlying geometry code, so evaluating a point on the nurbs surface is really just pass-through to whatever normal functions are used to calculate a point on a sphere (unless, of course, you defined your sphere only as a brep, and it doesn't have a reference to an instance of a primitive shape object) 15:50 < kanzure> ah, no, it's the other way around (exposing brep elements in a manner that the other geometry algorithms can access) 15:58 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:00 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:06 < kanzure> "In fact, for any kind of curve the interior is defined as the left-hand side of the curve in relation to its orientation." 16:07 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-78-149-133-99.as13285.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:17 < kanzure> "Elastic beam curves have their origin in traditional methods of modeling applied in boat-building, where a long thin piece of wood, a lathe, was forced to pass between two sets of nails and in this way, take the form of a curve based on the two points, the directions of the forces applied at those points, and the properties of the wooden lathe itself. Maintaining these constraints requires both longitudinal and transversal forces to be ... 16:17 < kanzure> ... applied to the beam in order to compensate for its internal elasticity. The longitudinal forces can be a push or a pull and the beam may or may not be allowed to slide over these fixed points." 16:30 -!- Mokstar [~Mokstar@unaffiliated/mokstar] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:40 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-78-149-133-99.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:52 -!- _Sol_ [SolGr@c-50-166-90-49.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:57 <@jrayhawk> sapiosexual: and, comically, what GNU was envisioned to be was, in fact, standard UNIX 16:57 <@jrayhawk> though obviously they never finished 16:59 < QuantumG> there wasn't even a standard when they started 16:59 <@jrayhawk> "GIAESOU Is An Eventual Subset Of Unix" 16:59 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59 < sapiosexual> QuantumG, there was convention, though now they've decided to deviate from POSIX quite a bit in Hurd 17:00 < QuantumG> that's kinda the point of Hurd (if it can be said to have a point) 17:02 <@jrayhawk> "GWBAESOUIIWFLWIBTHOOU Would Be An Eventual Subset Of Unix If It Weren't For Linux Worse-Is-Bettering The Hell Out Of Us" 17:02 < gradstudentbot> The results of my study indicate that the climate is about to get really weird. 17:20 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=e7c4e3de Bryan Bishop: notes about opencascade source code >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ 17:22 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=5c180ed1 Bryan Bishop: minor markdown syntax fix >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ 17:30 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:40 < kanzure> alternating line vim regex for markdown links with underscores in their link text: :316,491g/^/if (line('.')%2) == 0|s/_/\\_/g 17:41 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=cd70ead3 Bryan Bishop: fix underscores in links for markdown >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ 17:42 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=498f5a95 Bryan Bishop: sigh, more markdown tweaks >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ 17:53 -!- FourFire is now known as FFAFK 18:07 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:22 -!- pyotra [~fircuser@24.60.79.55] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:22 -!- pyotra [~fircuser@24.60.79.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:32 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:35 -!- pyotra [~fircuser@24.60.79.55] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:35 -!- FFAFK is now known as FourFire 18:36 -!- pyotra [~fircuser@24.60.79.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:50 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:17 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=523df547 Bryan Bishop: opencascade package descriptions (partial) >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ 19:19 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:27 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:28 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-80-225-198.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:09 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-198-83-248.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:22 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:36 -!- pyotra [~fircuser@24.60.79.55] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:41 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=5050f1b5 Bryan Bishop: describe more opencascade packages >> 20:50 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:59 <@fenn> not so classy, B9 creator sends makerjuice cease and desist over their vat patent. so much for "open source printer" http://makerjuice.com/docs/b9cd.pdf 21:00 <@fenn> also their timing is impeccable, the gossip is probably everywhere at maker faire by now 21:06 < pyotra> ; 21:08 < kanzure> there was an email today from someone that basically said "makerfaire has had the same crap 8 years running, it's dumb and stupid and i hate all of you" 21:09 < kanzure> because nobody builds new projects 21:10 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:11 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:13 -!- Auctus [~Auctus@unaffiliated/auctus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:13 < ParahSailin> its called faire because french, not because ren faire 21:14 <@fenn> it's harkening back to the time of the maker renaissance, around 2006 21:15 -!- Auctus [~Auctus@unaffiliated/auctus] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:15 <@fenn> that's a long time in internet years 21:15 < kanzure> ah yes, the dawn of the internet, when tim o'reilly was able to convince everyone to buy stupid magazines about stuff he wasn't paying for 21:15 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:16 <@fenn> i wish i could get testy about your cynicism but it's so true 21:17 <@fenn> .g nnmi 21:17 < yoleaux> http://manufacturing.gov/nnmi.html 21:17 < kanzure> it's like selling air to... i mean fish to eskimos.. i mean.. like selling magazines to internet people, basically. 21:18 <@fenn> i wonder what the story behind NNMI is 21:19 <@fenn> i'm predicting it will go the way of government "nanotech" funding 21:19 <@fenn> "oh yes we are very advanced rapid prototyping manufacturing so fresh so hacker" 21:20 < kanzure> there's a lot of really advanced stuff hidden in opencascade 21:20 <@fenn> i know 21:21 < kanzure> where do they find these people? 21:21 <@fenn> russia and france 21:21 < kanzure> well yes.. but that doesn't explain anything. 21:21 <@fenn> nizhny novogrod 21:21 < kanzure> i mean, france does lots of curve math, but so what 21:22 <@fenn> um, genetics? 21:22 <@fenn> it could be just culture 21:22 <@fenn> either way, france had a lot of mathematicians in its history 21:22 < kanzure> after looking at almost all the modules today, 21:23 <@fenn> and russia had a very good education system right up until around when opencascade started 21:23 < kanzure> it is clear that most of the geometry and topology source code was written late 80s early 90s 21:23 < kanzure> and then the rest of the time was spent making all this "document extension framework" horse shit 21:23 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:23 <@fenn> is that the "DS" stuff? 21:23 < kanzure> XCAF 21:23 <@fenn> oh, i never figured out what that was 21:24 < kanzure> me either, after looking at the code i'm pretty sure it's just their inability to architect a semantic-anything 21:24 < gradstudentbot> I.. I don't think this chart is accurate. 21:24 <@fenn> semwhat? 21:24 <@fenn> this was pre-XML right? 21:24 < kanzure> i have outlined the majority of the packages here, http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/opencascade 21:25 < kanzure> (at the bottom) 21:25 <@fenn> can we just revert to matra datavision and call it "open datavision" 21:25 -!- pyotra [~fircuser@24.60.79.55] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 21:25 <@fenn> i mean seriously 21:25 <@fenn> i just want a geometry kernel 21:26 <@fenn> wow you've been busy 21:26 < kanzure> so their business model is clearly about consulting 21:26 <@fenn> yes they gain nothing by cleaning up the code 21:26 < kanzure> and i suspect that what happened was that their clients didn't have their own programming teams 21:26 < kanzure> or if they did, it was people who didn't want to even think about CAD 21:27 < kanzure> because opencascade does do a bunch of handholding around geometry 21:27 < kanzure> lots of "application plugin interfaces" 21:27 <@fenn> obviously whoever did the programming didnt understand any of it and instead of getting their hands dirty they wrap wrappers in wrapping wrap 21:27 < kanzure> yeah i am surprised i haven't seen code duplication yet; what about all the "project a curve on a surface" packages, surely those are dupes? 21:27 <@fenn> is there a clear "core" of code that can be neatly excised into a separate package? 21:28 < kanzure> the non-boolean-operational non-nurbs 2d geometry is like 15 packages, but mostly separate 21:28 < kanzure> and some of the 3d geometry stuff 21:28 <@fenn> just 2d geometry is 15 packages? (what's a package?) 21:29 < kanzure> they keep geometry and topology stuff conceptually isolated (to the extent that they are able to maintain a coherent concept at all) 21:29 < kanzure> a package is each folder in src/ 21:29 < kanzure> some of these packages are just "toolkits", which have no source code and instead have a bunch of dependencies to other packages 21:29 < kanzure> these toolkit packages begin with the letters TK 21:30 < kanzure> which is 63 of them 21:30 <@fenn> ok can we not call folders packages then? 21:30 <@fenn> because this is confusing 21:30 < kanzure> look at "package naming conventions" 21:30 < kanzure> well, they call them packages 21:31 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=9c2e88c3 Bryan Bishop: fix error in opencascade naming convention list >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ 21:31 <@fenn> you know i have been thinking about how much simpler it would be to use pixel/voxel methods 21:31 < gradstudentbot> What do you mean this isn't going to work? 21:31 <@fenn> shame on me 21:33 <@fenn> can you tell me why it crashes upon exceptions instead of just, like, not crash? 21:33 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=b44fbddf Bryan Bishop: also identify the T(ransient) naming convention >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ 21:34 < kanzure> config.h setting 21:34 <@fenn> what is Mgt short for? 21:34 < kanzure> management 21:35 <@fenn> maybe i just have to think in french to understand this 21:35 < kanzure> i don't have a good sense yet for which parts were written by the french vs the russians 21:36 < kanzure> i am not sure if the geometry primitive stuff is useful 21:36 < kanzure> like, what's the point of having implicit circles when you could just represent the circle as a brep? 21:36 < kanzure> i guess it's nice to get a circle when you dump to step or iges 21:37 <@fenn> because they didn't have breps when they wrote the circle code? 21:37 < kanzure> i doubt it 21:37 <@fenn> you can also dump brep to step or iges (in fact you have to?) 21:37 <@fenn> i remember reading about "where to put the seam on a cylinder" 21:37 < kanzure> * Old Boolean Operations (BOA) provided by BRepAlgo package designed and developed in Open CASCADE 6x in 2000; its architecture and content are out of date. 21:38 < kanzure> * New Boolean Operations (NBOA) provided by BRepAlgoAPI package designed and developed in 2001 and completely revised in 2013. 21:38 <@fenn> guh why 21:38 <@fenn> just delete the old code please 21:38 < kanzure> and why call the new one just "old+API"? 21:39 <@fenn> there are a lot of chunks of commented out code laying around too 21:40 <@fenn> "Open CASCADE Community Edition: patches/improvements/experiments contributed by users over the official Open CASCADE library." 21:40 <@fenn> did they never resolve the license question? is it open source or not? 21:41 <@fenn> this is ridiculous 21:41 <@fenn> 1390 patches 21:41 < kanzure> yes they clarified it as lgpl now 21:41 <@fenn> so why does "OCE" exist? 21:41 < kanzure> because you have to sign a contributor license agreement and take a blood oath to get access to opencascade's upstream git server 21:41 < kanzure> http://git.dev.opencascade.org/gitweb/ 21:42 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:42 <@fenn> so it's not patches, just a downstream fork 21:42 <@fenn> like foo1.2.3-ubuntu1 21:42 < kanzure> yes i think it does include extra changes 21:43 < kanzure> and then they merge upstream into it every once in a while 21:43 <@fenn> ah that's good 21:43 < kanzure> https://github.com/tpaviot/oce/blob/master/NEWS 21:44 < kanzure> i think anywhere that you see a colon surrounded by spaces on both sides, it's a french person 21:45 <@fenn> * Define Standard_Boolean as a bool 21:45 * fenn facepalms 21:45 < kanzure> that's from src/Standard/ probably 21:46 <@fenn> C++: when C isn't "portable" enough 21:46 < kanzure> these things are probably worth reading, 21:46 < kanzure> http://dev.opencascade.org/doc/overview/html/occt_user_guides__modeling_algos.html 21:46 < kanzure> http://dev.opencascade.org/doc/overview/html/occt_user_guides__boolean_operations.html 21:47 * fenn wearily casts an eye towards the document 21:49 < kanzure> their source code formatting choices are disgusting 21:52 <@fenn> oh will you look at that, i'm out of ram and can't read these, shucks. 21:53 < kanzure> "To help the user, the Topology API classes only raise the exception StdFail_NotDone. Any other exception means that something happened which was unforeseen in the design of this API." 21:54 < kanzure> well anyway, that stuff is all bogus, scroll down and there's actual math/cad relevant stuff 21:56 <@fenn> did nmz787 ever build a DLP 3d printer or stereolithography setup? 21:56 <@fenn> i vaguely remember something about a blu-ray diode or UV LED 21:57 < kanzure> i don't think he built it 21:57 < kanzure> he would have rubbed it in my face more :) 21:57 < kanzure> someone emailed me a link to sean wrona, "hey bryan, you should totally meet this guy and race him" 21:59 < kanzure> (he raced me about 10 times a few years ago) 22:00 <@fenn> why dont they just sell all those old cars to india 22:00 < kanzure> because then how are they going to claim the insurance money due to "lost inventory"? 22:00 < kanzure> due to "market conditions" 22:00 <@fenn> you can get insurance due to "market conditions"? 22:01 < kanzure> when you employ 4 million people, anything is possible 22:01 <@fenn> "we could just have smart cars that drive themselves on the tollroads, eliminating the need for human drivers 22:01 <@fenn> and then everyone is billed for the self-driving cars that are accumulating tolls 22:01 <@fenn> no need for passengers 22:02 <@fenn> "Send them to the empty factory parking lots and unused spaces in Detroit." 22:02 <@fenn> the Cars Come Home to Roost 22:03 < kanzure> general motors is 219k, chrysler is 65k, toyota 333k, ford 181k, nissan 160k, honda 190k, volkswagen 190k, hyundai 57k, suzuki 14k, mitsubishi 30k 22:03 < kanzure> okay maybe not quite 4 million 22:03 <@fenn> how many excess cars do they have tho 22:03 < gradstudentbot> None of this data makes sense. 22:03 < kanzure> 1.4 million employees only? that's what the recession was for? 22:04 <@jrayhawk> was there there's also a lot of supply chain 22:04 < kanzure> i think the article estimated 1 million cars 22:04 < kanzure> oh yeah, the other companies that they contract to, long tail n' such 22:04 <@fenn> number of employees doesn't necessarily correlate with economic impact/volume of sales 22:05 < kanzure> no, it was my answer regarding insurance 22:05 <@fenn> 1.5 million etsy crafters would be expected to have a smaller economic impact 22:05 < kanzure> i think they get insurance money every time they have a recall 22:07 < kanzure> "Product recall insurance is typically purchased by manufacturers such as food and beverage, toy and electronics companies to cover costs such as customer notification, shipping costs and disposal costs. Coverage generally applies to the firm itself, though additional coverage can be purchased to cover the costs of third parties." 22:08 <@fenn> sell a new, better engineered model every two/three years or so. That way, the engineers can relax a little and concentrate on making something good instead of freakin recycling the same shit over and over again because they don't have time to engineer something good... 22:11 <@fenn> "When a tax-payer bails out a company and puts it on life support, you whinge that it is "communism".  Except it is not.  Because they didn't follow through.  It is only half-communism" 22:12 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-173-66-15-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:12 <@fenn> the bad half 22:13 < kanzure> i wonder if opencascade acquired any of these packages, such as from another company 22:13 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-173-66-15-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:13 <@fenn> almost certainly 22:13 <@fenn> that's why there's no real integration 22:13 < kanzure> maybe the majority of the actual cad knowledge was from somewhere else? 22:14 < kanzure> some university research group 22:14 <@fenn> i doubt it 22:14 -!- entelechy [~elysium@181.194.136.65] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:14 <@fenn> company A hires company B to integrate company C's work into company Z's product 22:14 < kanzure> well how often do people hire programmers and force them to read geometry papers, that's not normal 22:14 <@fenn> (Z came first) 22:15 <@fenn> it's not normal? 22:15 <@fenn> there are programming companies who specialize in cad stuff 22:15 < kanzure> no, most programmers do not read papers 22:15 < kanzure> like the vast majority of web developers 22:15 <@fenn> maybe in silicon valley they don't, but some professional cad programmers i know do 22:15 < kanzure> i am not saiyng they are stupid, i am just saying they do not do that or it does not happen in their jobs really 22:16 < kanzure> you know professional cad programmers? 22:16 < gradstudentbot> Am I going to get honors on this rotation? 22:16 < kanzure> for all their professional skillz where's the sane and rational library 22:16 <@fenn> jepler and cradek in #emc 22:16 < kanzure> "You must be invited" 22:16 <@fenn> their professional skillz are used to maintain the professional product they get paid to maintain 22:17 < gradstudentbot> Well, I can't really talk about it because I'm trying to get it published in Science or Nature. 22:17 < kanzure> whatever, until i see evidence to the contrary i'll assume it's just as awful as opencascade under the hood 22:17 <@fenn> it probably is 22:17 < kanzure> brlcad doesn't really compare to a bunch of this 22:17 <@fenn> but they read papers 22:17 < entelechy> hmm some i'm sure many programmers and webdevs read technical papers on the subjects they specialize in, but i'm probably still muted 22:18 < kanzure> surface manipulation is where it's at, not basic csg stuff 22:18 < entelechy> this is the latest one i've had my eye on taking a look at soon: http://css.csail.mit.edu/mylar/mylar.pdf 22:19 < kanzure> i'm aware that brlcad now has some basic nurbs surface-surface intersection stuff, but that's not the same as having a coherent surface-based cad 22:20 <@fenn> brlcad is implicit geometry with some nurbs add-ons to make STEP work 22:20 < kanzure> it's not as implicit as impliticad, i think 22:20 <@fenn> no, it's not 22:21 <@fenn> that's "functional geometry" 22:21 < kanzure> *implicitcad 22:21 <@fenn> or f-rep 22:21 < kanzure> all these names are stupid 22:21 <@fenn> why 22:21 < kanzure> because everyone has their own definition 22:21 <@fenn> there's a difference between "class Circle" and "this function that happens to be a circle" 22:22 < kanzure> "class Circle" could just be something that specifies a function that happens to be a circle 22:22 <@fenn> right but the function always (ideally) specifies a circle 22:22 < kanzure> or it could be an "elemental" type, where it doesn't specify the algorithm, but the system says it's a circle so it's a circle 22:22 <@fenn> same thing 22:23 <@fenn> i've seen some pretty ugly "circles" 22:23 <@fenn> *cough autocad cough* 22:24 <@fenn> https://autocadtips.wordpress.com/2011/08/02/how-to-fix-blocky-circles-arcs/ 22:24 < kanzure> is there any good reason to have bezier curves? 22:24 <@fenn> for compatibility? 22:24 < kanzure> with what? 22:25 < kanzure> why not only bsplines 22:25 <@fenn> i dunno, adobe illustrator truetype fonts? 22:25 <@fenn> beziers are cubic functions right? and nurbs are quintic? 22:25 <@fenn> so aren't beziers a subset of nurbs? 22:25 < kanzure> i just said something stupid 22:25 < kanzure> REDACT 22:25 <@fenn> (actual question, not rhetorical. redaction rejected) 22:25 < kanzure> .wik bezier spline 22:26 < yoleaux> "In the mathematical field of numerical analysis and in computer graphics, a Bézier spline is a spline curve where each polynomial of the spline is in Bézier form." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezier_spline 22:26 <@fenn> thanks wikipedia~ 22:26 < kanzure> "In other words,[contradiction] a Bézier spline is simply a series of Bézier curves joined end to end where the last point of one curve coincides with the starting point of the next curve. Usually cubic Bézier curves are used, and additional control points (called handles) are added to define the shape of each curve. A Bézier spline is similar to a polyline in that it connects a series of points, but whereas in polylines the points are ... 22:26 < kanzure> ... connected by straight lines, in a Bézier spline the points are connected by Bézier curves." 22:27 <@fenn> "usually" is not good to see in a mathematical definition 22:28 <@fenn> oh SVG uses cubic beziers? 22:28 < kanzure> i better get an honorary phd for this shit 22:29 <@fenn> i think it's good to know the basic math behind stuff 22:29 <@fenn> it turns out it's not all that fancy 22:29 <@fenn> why is it "bezier" instead of just "cubic spline"? 22:29 <@fenn> fuck all that dead french guy shit 22:29 < kanzure> it's a person 22:29 < kanzure> dead person 22:29 <@fenn> who fucking cares 22:30 < kanzure> you asked 22:30 <@fenn> 22:30 < kanzure> TypeError: type not typed correctly 22:30 <@fenn> 22:31 <@fenn> since nurbs are quintic and can easily represent cubic and quadratic splines, it's not much of a complexity overhead to include them 22:32 <@fenn> semantic sugar really 22:32 < gradstudentbot> They're not recording lectures so now I have to go to class every day. 22:32 <@fenn> all that curve projection crap is to trim the nurbs surfaces 22:35 <@fenn> "Non-rational splines or Bézier curves may approximate a circle, but they cannot represent it exactly. Rational splines can represent any conic section, including the circle, exactly." then they list a table of "rational" weights which include a lot of sqrt(2)'s 22:36 <@fenn> seems like it would be the other way around 22:36 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36 < gradstudentbot> It's statistically significant. 22:36 <@fenn> science 22:37 * fenn pokes gradstudentbot but not really 22:37 < gradstudentbot> Well, it looks better if you see it through a UV scope. 22:46 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@234-103-15.connect.netcom.no] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] 22:49 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55 <@fenn> kanzure while you're making call graphs and documenting code conventions and stuff, does it make sense to do that for brl-cad too? or is their documentation good enough already? 23:08 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=09e6f4b9 Bryan Bishop: opencascade packages about geometry >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ 23:08 < kanzure> brlcad is way more easily understood 23:09 < kanzure> the python wrappers on top of the python bindings are a reasonable place to start 23:18 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclid_(computer_program) 23:19 < kanzure> "Euclid is a CAD software which has been developed since 1970. Initially written by Jean Marc Brun and Michel Théron at Laboratoire d'informatique pour la mécanique et les sciences de l'ingénieur (LIMSI) for modelling fluid flow, they founded their own company, Datavision in 1979 and then sold a controlling interest in 1980 to the French company Matra Datavision.[1]" 23:19 < kanzure> their company was called datavision and it was sold to a company called datavision? 23:20 < kanzure> "Matra was owned by the Floirat family. The name Matra became famous in the 1960s when it went into car production by buying Automobiles René Bonnet. Matra Automobiles produced racing cars and sports cars, and was successful in racing." 23:22 <@fenn> is that the same euclid that you were reverse engineering? 23:24 < kanzure> no, you're thinking of esolid 23:24 < kanzure> esolid was from an academic paper 23:24 < kanzure> and had source code 23:25 <@fenn> heh. it must be obvious how my brain hashes names 23:29 <@fenn> does two-photon DLP photolithography make sense physically? 23:32 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:49 < cpopell`werk> Hmmmmmmm 23:49 < cpopell`werk> fenn: I'm not sure, DMDs are about 5um across 23:49 < cpopell`werk> I don't know the actual physical focusing mechanism used in 2 photon microlith 23:50 <@fenn> the lens on the projecting laser? or you can use a front side lens (after bouncing off the mirror) 23:50 < cpopell`werk> no, I mean, how are you shifting where the light goes-are you using some sort of micromotor on the lens? 23:50 <@fenn> the DMD is just a high brightness image plane 23:51 < cpopell`werk> the thing about DLP is that you usually only have two settings 23:51 < cpopell`werk> output and heat sink 23:51 < cpopell`werk> *for a given mirror 23:51 <@fenn> uh.. so? 23:52 < kanzure> "FilletSurf - API giving only geometric information about fillets for Toyota Project UV4." 23:53 < cpopell`werk> Hmmmm, I'm not really certain where you'd put the DMD system into place or what benefit it would give 23:53 <@fenn> 2 photon means "below the diffraction limit" and the diffraction refers to the diffraction due to the size of the aperture; larger aperture, less diffraction. DMD having 5um mirrors makes for a small aperture? 23:54 <@fenn> the DMD is to direct the light to specific places on the photolithography substrate 23:54 <@fenn> 2 photon doesn't say anything about how the light gets there, only the reaction mechanism 23:54 < cpopell`werk> yes, but usually it involves immersing the laser in the material itself 23:54 <@fenn> ^^ i should have said "is used for below diffraction limit" 23:55 < cpopell`werk> I'm just not sure where a DMD would improve current techniques, but that's because I don't know how they're currently shifting things around 23:55 < cpopell`werk> it looks like they're physically moving the laser focus 23:56 <@fenn> ah crap i just closed that tab 23:56 < cpopell`werk> http://www.asdn.net/asdn/nanotools/two-photon_polymerization.shtml 23:59 <@fenn> .title http://www.photonics.com/Article.aspx?AID=50989 23:59 < yoleaux> Two-photon lithography creates detailed 3-D prints fast 23:59 <@fenn> this guy uses mirrors to move his laser beam around --- Log closed Sun May 18 00:00:08 2014