--- Log opened Fri May 23 00:00:13 2014
00:20 <@fenn> "Sea and desert birds have been found to have a salt gland near the nostrils which concentrates brine, later to be "sneezed" out to the sea, in effect allowing these birds to drink seawater without the need to find freshwater resources. It also enables the seabirds to remove the excess salt entering the body when eating, swimming or diving in the sea for food. The kidney cannot remove these
00:20 <@fenn> quantities and concentrations of salt."
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00:29 <@fenn> paperbot: http://www.scientific.net/KEM.428-429.533
00:29 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/cd3a707234c9a634e140704dbdd87543.txt
00:29 <@fenn> paperbot: http://www.scientific.net/KEM.428-429.533.pdf
00:29 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/3ad9d77074e20ca011bb62e28b07c39a.txt
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00:31 <@fenn> how can this even be a new thing in 2010 "we applied soap to iron oxide particles"
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00:34 <@fenn> "Water based (aqueous) ferrofluids often use ionic sufficants such as tetramethylammonium hydroxide. The negative hydroxide ions stick to the surface of the magnetite, and the tetramethylammonium cations form a positively charged layer around the outside."
00:36 <@fenn> "make sure you don't need the container again as the ferrofluid is very staining.
00:38 <@fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrorheological_fluid neat stuff
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00:41 <@fenn> this is exactly like the white "blood" from bishop in aliens
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00:50 <@fenn> .title https://www.flickr.com/photos/llnl/3421933297/in/set-72157607099824019
00:50 < yoleaux> NIF Potassium Dihydrogen Phosphate Crystal
00:54 <@fenn> why is a public domain photo "safe"
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00:59 <@fenn> wtf US national labs can have copyrights on media they produce?
00:59 <@fenn> when will it end
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01:54 <@_archels> .title http://radar.oreilly.com/2014/05/it-works-like-the-brain-so.html
01:54 < yoleaux> It works like the brain. So?
01:54 <@fenn> the brain, an incredibly complex 25 watt glucose-fueled space heater
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02:09 <@fenn> i will never be satisfied until your so-called "AI" runs on pop tarts
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04:37 < chris_99> http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v15/n3/full/nrn3679.html
04:37 < chris_99> .title
04:37 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnrn3679
04:37 < yoleaux> On the other hand: including left-handers in cognitive neuroscience and neurogenetics
04:37 < chris_99> i thought that was interesting
04:40 < gradstudentbot> I have to order new primers.
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06:54 <@fenn> how hard could it be to build a mask to transform capacitance to tactile sense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroreception#Electrolocation
06:58 <@fenn> where do i put this idea on the wiki
06:59 <@fenn> there's no schema, or if there is one it's being ignored more than followed
06:59 <@fenn> like why isn't myostatin in projects/ or genetic-modifications
06:59 <@fenn> not that i particularly like the idea of a projects/ directory
07:00 <@fenn> part of the reason i wrote goals.yaml was to organize this stuff in some transhumanism-specific way
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07:04 <@fenn> i'd like some feedback on it, if anyone wants to look: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/goals.yaml
07:04 <@fenn> "sort projects by dimension of capability, feasibility, and expected effectiveness" seems particularly relevant wrt "how to organize the wiki"
07:06 <@fenn> dimension of capability meaning i.e. physical strength, complexity comprehension, loquaciousness, sensory sensitivity
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07:23 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=dcd0735b fenn: stub out sensory substitution and throw in a capacitive sensing idea >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/senses/
07:24 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=7be0e944 fenn: markdown... >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/senses/
07:28 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=23c445e0 fenn: more >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/senses/
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07:33 < BreakByte1> Hi
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07:34 < BreakByte1> Nothing is here
07:34 < BreakByte1> ¿¿??
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08:48 < sheena> http://solarroadways.com/faq.shtml
08:55 < kanzure> "more" is a bad commit message
09:04 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.jove.com/video/51075/aplysia-ganglia-preparation-for-electrophysiological-molecular
09:04 < paperbot> TypeError: unicode() argument 2 must be string, not None (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/models.py", line 825, in text)
09:10 < cuba> paperbot: help
09:10 < cuba> paperbot: !help
09:10 < kanzure> no help
09:11 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot
09:18 <@fenn> paperbot: http://scitation.aip.org/content/asa/journal/jasa/117/6/10.1121/1.1904423?ver=pdfcov
09:19 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/An%20aeroacoustically%20driven%20thermoacoustic%20heat%20pump.txt
09:19 <@fenn> i hate having to write commit messages for two-word edits
09:19 < dingo> "spellfix"
09:19 < dingo> "docfix"
09:21 <@fenn> paperbot: http://scitation.aip.org/deliver/fulltext/asa/journal/jasa/117/6/1.1904423.pdf
09:21 < kanzure> hah after reading this i have no idea what they actually do http://blog.sourceeasy.com/post/86578562513/building-the-first-full-stack-startup-out-of-india
09:21 < kanzure> they bug their supplires with nsa snooping devices and yell at them when they do it wron?
09:21 < kanzure> *wrong
09:21 < kanzure> *suppliers
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09:22 < delinquentme> paperbot, http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/scitranslmed.3004249
09:22 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/89e60dbd9a50cc28fe5dd4a469cf745d.txt
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09:25 < delinquentme> paperbot, http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/4/159/159ra147.full
09:25 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscitranslmed.3004249
09:27 < gradstudentbot> That's beyond the scope of my research.
09:28 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Unexpected%20Error.txt
09:31 <@fenn> paperbot: don't you sass me now
09:31 < chris_99> heh
09:33 <@fenn> hrmph. aip.ORG sure likes charging big bucks for their papers
09:41 < kanzure> jove.com changed how they serve videos >:|
09:41 < kanzure> should have archived their videos when i had the chance
09:41 < chris_99> i don't get jove
09:41 < chris_99> it's paid for right?
09:42 < kanzure> libraries pay for a subscription
09:42 < kanzure> libraries pay to get buttfucked, basically
09:42 < chris_99> why the hell do people upload videos to it then
09:42 < chris_99> i don't understand
09:42 < kanzure> for the same reasons you upload protocols to nature protocols?
09:43 < chris_99> but nature has a lot more cache no?
09:45 < chris_99> jove just seems like some random video site
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09:48 < kanzure> jove has lots of protocols
09:49 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/jove.urls.txt
09:49 < kanzure> this is probably why they changed their url scheme :|
09:49 < chris_99> who's it peer reviewed by though
09:49 < chris_99> haha nice list
09:50 < kanzure> i dunno if i care about peer review of "here is an interesting way to cut into mouse brain matter"
09:50 < chris_99> it'd be nice if there was something like arxiv then for videos
10:06 < kanzure> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/vocore-a-coin-sized-linux-computer-with-wifi
10:06 < chris_99> intriguing, ARM?
10:06 < chris_99> oh MIPS
10:09 < GeDaMo> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/26al4x/i_am_jennifer_french_paralympian_active_user_of/
10:10 < kanzure> no reddit please
10:10 < GeDaMo> Sorry
10:10 < kanzure> a paper about the particular implants, or instructions on how to build them, would be on-topic, but a reddit thread is usually noise and boring
10:15 < kanzure> or, someone posting reverse enineering stuff about them, or ROM dumps etc
10:16 <@fenn> what would you do with a zillion videos anyway
10:16 <@fenn> damn i forgot to write about airwells
10:16 < kanzure> watch them.. i have a monitor playing hours of video every day, i'd rather play SCIENCE videos.
10:17 < kanzure> and real science, not the bullshit from ineptitude geographic or whatever
10:17 <@fenn> what do you play on your video monitor then
10:17 < kanzure> anime, movies, etc., while i code. otherwise i get distracted.
10:18 < kanzure> the downside is that i have a very high burn rate for all sorts of media
10:18 <@fenn> yeah i bet you would fail a reading comprehension test
10:18 <@fenn> or an anime comprehension test for that matter
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10:19 < kanzure> huh? you asked me a question didn't you
10:19 <@fenn> i mean something playing in the background while you code doesn't count as watching it
10:19 < kanzure> i think i comprehended your question correctly
10:19 < kanzure> oh are you sure it doesn't count? seems like the sort of thing that others would say "you're just watching stuff instead of doing things"
10:20 <@fenn> worst of both worlds
10:20 < kanzure> if you do things right, nothing at all, etc
10:20 <@fenn> or maybe you have a highly parallel brain vs my single processing unit
10:21 <@fenn> which is why i can't stop thinking about triaxial weave and thermoacoustic honeycomb
10:21 < kanzure> main difference is probably related to my fucked up working memory
10:22 <@fenn> you said something about aspergers having dense cortical minicolumns with less long-range wiring
10:22 < kanzure> hmm, i think it was something about voltage spillover management things
10:22 <@fenn> sort of the opposite of schizophrenia
10:22 < FourFire> Hey, has anyone in here participated in *grinding* ?
10:22 <@fenn> FourFire: no, go away.
10:22 < kanzure> man how awful can this guy get
10:22 < kanzure> what is your subroutine anyway
10:23 <@fenn> def annoykanzure: irc.sendmsg("##hplusroadmap", reddit.search(kanzure.annoyances.random()))
10:24 < kanzure> i would have guessed logs.search()
10:24 <@fenn> no, it's searching reddit for things that annoy you
10:25 < kanzure> truly ai is terrifying
10:25 < kanzure> trollbot 5000
10:25 < kanzure> the computational power of twenty football stadiums for the sole purpose of trolling me
10:26 < paperbot> troll, baby, troll
10:26 < kanzure> yeah paperbot is a pretty big troll, wont even paperify you
10:28 < kanzure> what did you think? https://github.com/tenko/occmodel/blob/master/occmodel/occmodeldemo.py
10:29 < gradstudentbot> I don't know what to tell you, I thought I would have graduated by now.
10:30 < chris_99> awh poor gradstudentbot
10:30 < gradstudentbot> You don't happen to have any more virgin flies, do you?
10:30 < chris_99> no
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10:37 <@fenn> what's with the eval(TEXT)
10:39 <@fenn> is this some kind of attempt at obfuscation?
10:39 <@fenn> obfuscation by extra-clevererness
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10:42 < kanzure> my guess is that he didn't want to do (e1, e2, e3, w1, w2, w3) = self.execute(), so he came up with that terrible system instead
10:42 < kanzure> Edge().createEllipse() is a pretty stupid api concept
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10:59 < FourFire> fenn why don't you like me :c
10:59 < FourFire> (J/K I didn't think so, but maybe one of the lurkers did/does?)
11:00 < kanzure> http://octopart.com/blog/archives/2014/5/announcing-the-octopart-microcontroller-price-index
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11:12 < ParahSailin> fenn: just saw your posting on architecture
11:20 < kanzure> *engineering
11:23 < ParahSailin> fenn: what do you think the future in low embodied energy building materials is
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11:46 < kanzure> and can you give me a banana futures forecast
11:47 <@fenn> bananas are toast, dude
11:47 <@fenn> banana marshmallow peanut butter chocolate cinnamon toast
11:47 < kanzure> so... i should buy fish futures?
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11:48 <@fenn> well there's a banana scare every few years and one of these times it will probably collapse for real
11:49 < kanzure> law of large numbers?
11:50 <@fenn> ParahSailin: bamboo, basalt fiber, lignin, carbon fiber, sintered titanium (i guess these aren't really low-energy huh)
11:50 < kanzure> i was doing opencascade things because i was going to do python-brlcad things
11:50 < kanzure> but why was i going to do python-brlcad things?
11:51 <@fenn> ParahSailin: honestly it's harder to get lower energy than sun-cured compressed earth brick
11:52 < ParahSailin> yeah that has a lot going for it
11:52 <@fenn> if your metric is MJ/kg the result will be different than if it's MJ/m^2 of habitable space
11:52 < ParahSailin> it doesnt work with every soil type though?
11:52 <@fenn> make it work
11:53 < ParahSailin> also cant really pour a foundation with it
11:53 <@fenn> nothing some old tires can't fix
11:54 <@fenn> EPS also works to prevent frost heave, but then you have to shield the EPS
11:54 < ParahSailin> how does that work
11:54 < ParahSailin> old tires as foundation i mean
11:57 < ParahSailin> could you just ram earth as foundation as well?
12:01 <@fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/kaki_hunter_-_earthbag_building.pdf see page 74 but also read the whole chapter on foundations
12:02 <@fenn> i must have read about it somewhere else, but the idea is the tire acts as both a gravel containment system (tensile reinforcement) and a capillary break, and is water/sun proof to boot
12:03 < kanzure> was it "give something for the openscad users to use, which isn't going to be a maintenance nightmare?"
12:03 <@fenn> the "earthship" people make a big deal out of ramming dirt in tires laboriously but you really only need to dump some coarse locking gravel or road bed material in there
12:04 < kanzure> it wasn't because i had anything in particular to model at the time
12:04 <@fenn> you want to sift the big rocks out of the fill dirt anyway so you will have a bunch of gravel
12:06 <@fenn> oh i forgot about "urbanite" heh
12:06 <@fenn> kanzure: is lack of a decent open source cad program not reason enough?
12:06 < kanzure> no, because i can just pirate solidworks?
12:07 <@fenn> pick any project, you probably will need a cad program to build it
12:07 < kanzure> did you have an opinion about the "only use very simple geometric primitives" part/assembly description language from the other day? http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-05-19.log
12:07 <@fenn> if you want to re-use other people's projects, they will need a cad program to share with the world
12:07 < kanzure> ("PADL" in the logs)
12:07 <@fenn> i thought it was stupid because it just generalizes to voxels in the end
12:08 < kanzure> wuh?
12:08 <@fenn> why not use manufacturing processes as primitives instead
12:08 < kanzure> "since the method can be applied to voxels, .." ?
12:08 < kanzure> i think they were using manufacturing processes? they call them "abilities"
12:08 <@fenn> PADL is just boxes and cylinders
12:08 < kanzure> oops, capabilities
12:08 <@fenn> add enough tiny boxes together and you can make any shape
12:09 < kanzure> "Libraries of PADL-like (or informationally equivalent) object definitions will be essential to provide precise specifications of new and standard parts, assemblies, and stock. Such libraries can also contain geometric approximations of tool structures and fixtures that are adequate for process-planning purposes. If suitable 'Capability Files' are added to this base, one has data sufficient for automatic manufacturing, (and probably ...
12:09 < kanzure> ... assembly)...."
12:09 < kanzure> well anyway, fine, suppose they were proposing a geometric primitives library of manufacturing tool shape paths
12:09 <@fenn> also, square corners suck for mechanical things
12:10 <@fenn> internal square corners are weak, external square corners are poky
12:10 <@fenn> most things that look square actually have a small radius or chamfer
12:12 <@fenn> i'd like to see an octahedral hexapod's "capability" represented in PADL
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12:17 <@fenn> actually, no i wouldn't
12:18 < kanzure> yes and what is the capability of a lever or a saw
12:20 <@fenn> "big tools for small things, small tools for big things"
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12:22 < kanzure> huh?
12:22 < kanzure> is that propaganda
12:22 <@fenn> something my boatbuilder friend used to say
12:26 <@fenn> .title http://youtube.com/watch?v=1TsFwsyn97U
12:26 < yoleaux> Modern Ecoshell Construction
12:26 <@fenn> ParahSailin: ^^
12:27 <@fenn> ugly but it works for equatorial regions
12:28 <@fenn> actually the big ones look kinda cool
12:34 <@fenn> .title http://hdl.handle.net/1802/26371
12:34 < yoleaux> CONSTANT-RADIUS BLENDING IN SOLID MODELLING
12:35 <@fenn> the figures on page 42+ beat most "cad" programs i've used hands down
12:36 <@fenn> OCC wouldn't know what to do with page 43 for example
12:37 <@fenn> usually you just dont get filleting at all
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12:40 < kanzure> there are at least three chamfering and filleting modules in opencascade
12:41 < kanzure> let's ban "OCC" because their abbreviationism is bullshit and evil: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/opencascade#abbreviations
12:43 < kanzure> their capacity to abbreviate is endless
12:43 < kanzure> like really, how am i supposed to know that "aMPBLI" is "BOPDS_IndexedDataMapOfPaveBlockListOfInteger
12:43 < kanzure> but "aItLI" is "BOPDS_ListIteratorOfListOfPaveBlock" instead of a list of integers like the last one
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12:58 < dingo> wow
12:58 < dingo> thats nuts
12:58 < dingo> those abbreviates read like an indian software contract house
12:58 < kanzure> french and russian, in this case
12:58 < dingo> mm.
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13:19 < jrayhawk_> .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBHVKFCoYFc are pretty cool, too, though obviously something with a foundation is better for housing
13:20 < yoleaux> jrayhawk_: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed.
13:20 < jrayhawk_> huh
13:23 < kanzure> .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBHVKFCoYFc
13:23 < yoleaux> Concrete Canvas Shelters '09
13:23 < kanzure> .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBHVKFCoYFc xyz
13:23 < yoleaux> kanzure: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed.
13:23 < jrayhawk_> ah
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13:37 < kanzure> i am not getting opencascade's "shape container" class style
13:38 < kanzure> an instance of the class has methods like setShape, getCurrentShape, and makeSphere, makePrism, whatever.. and they seem to override the existing shape that the instance refers to?
13:38 < kanzure> why would you possibly want that
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14:04 < dbolser> http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev.ge.11.120177.000455 ?
14:05 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1146%2Fannurev.ge.11.120177.000455
14:05 < dbolser> paperbot: wut?
14:06 < kanzure> it was trying to be helpful
14:06 < dbolser> ;-)
14:06 < dbolser> I've proxied in
14:07 < dbolser> so I've got it now
14:07 < chris_99> http://hackaday.com/2014/05/23/homemade-liquid-nitrogen/
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14:11 < kanzure> argh and of course everything is using std::ostream, which is annoying to wrap with swig
14:11 < kanzure> or that pythonocc doesn't already wrap
14:11 < dbolser> http://www.scribd.com/doc/225848820/PROSPECTS-FOR-PLANT-GENOME-MODIFICATION-BY-NONCONVENTIONAL-METHODS
14:11 < dbolser> 1977
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14:19 < ParahSailin> sad times, my ezproxy hookup graduated, i might have to work on paperbot now
14:23 < dbolser> it can't be hard to get into an institute with multi access
14:23 < dbolser> do the publisher sites really know how to spot ip spoofing or other stuff?
14:28 < kanzure> eskimos have 400 words for "paywall" and they are all "fuck"
14:29 < dbolser> lol
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14:31 < chris_99> haha
14:34 < ParahSailin> delinquentme: did you fix that 8 line function in paperbot yet?
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14:54 < ParahSailin> oh goddamnit, ncbi's sra format is such a piece of shit
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15:25 < dbolser> ParahSailin: try ENA
15:25 < dbolser> It's slightly less sucky imho
15:25 < dbolser> ParahSailin: tried google-genomics yet?
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15:42 < kanzure> re: patents etc http://www.openbeamusa.com/blog/2014/5/22/stay-classy-makerbot
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15:58 < eudoxia> what is it about japanese websites and long hosts huh
15:59 < QuantumG> I dunno, what?
15:59 < eudoxia> they are pretty common
15:59 < eudoxia> like those chinese websites where the url is all numbers
16:00 < QuantumG> cool, like what?
16:00 < eudoxia> ftp.tsukuba.wide.ad.jp
16:00 < QuantumG> forum.nasaspaceflight.com
16:01 < QuantumG> I guess yours is more parts
16:01 < QuantumG> I remember that used to be more common before vhosts became so popular
16:02 < QuantumG> it'd be kinda nice to have youtube.google.com and so forth
16:02 < kanzure> the xn---59104192094109.co.cn is just unicode
16:03 < kanzure> as for written numbers in chinese domain names, it's because their numbering system is pleasant to say and remember
16:03 < kanzure> all mathematical innovation in number theory comes from countries where it is awful to say the longer numbers
16:11 < kanzure> here's a patent reform proposal http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/papers/2006/12/technology%20lichtman/200612lichtman.pdf
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17:12 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=0db53c6c Bryan Bishop: sigh, another abbreviation >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/
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17:57 < justanotheruser> kanzure: how do I forge git logs?
17:57 < kanzure> git fast-import
17:58 < kanzure> set $GIT_AUTHOR_NAME $GIT_AUTHOR_EMAIL $GIT_AUTHOR_DATE $GIT_COMMITTER_NAME $GIT_COMMITTER_DATE and then run git commit
17:58 < kanzure> all sorts of ways
17:58 < kanzure> erm and $GIT_COMMITTER_EMAIL
17:58 < justanotheruser> thanks
17:59 < kanzure> forging evidence?
18:05 < justanotheruser> kanzure: perhaps
18:05 < justanotheruser> perhaps I just want my github to look more impressive
18:07 < kanzure> https://github.com/gelstudios/gitfiti
18:07 < kanzure> https://github.com/mappum/gitbanner
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18:08 < kanzure> you could also just, you know, do lots of work..
18:09 < justanotheruser> kanzure: i will, but it will be in the past
18:10 < justanotheruser> gitbanners pretty cool :)
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18:11 < eudoxia> speaking of forging git logs
18:11 < eudoxia> i fucked up a couple of days and made too many commits, and now the rest of my banner looks yellower :C
18:11 < justanotheruser> eudoxia: does your client load logs from diyhpl?
18:12 < eudoxia> client?
18:12 < justanotheruser> irc
18:12 < eudoxia> no
18:12 < kanzure> he manually refreshes
18:12 < justanotheruser> oh
18:13 < eudoxia> oh you mean gnusha.org/logs
18:13 < eudoxia> yes i refresh manually, and i guess kanzure probably has a statistical sample of all my visits to his sites :)
18:13 < kanzure> i'm not the nsa (most of the time)
18:14 < eudoxia> you're the nsa of mostly-publicly-available data
18:14 < kanzure> well what do you think the internet archive is, a public charity?
18:14 < kanzure> oh wait
18:20 < jrayhawk_> i tried to make logs work over 'Transfer-Encoding: chunked' once, but then i found out that browsers don't actually support it
18:20 < jrayhawk_> i hate the web
18:31 < eudoxia> http://alcor.org/Library/html/casesummary2531.html :<
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18:32 < kanzure> .title
18:32 < yoleaux> Alcor Case Summary: A-2531
18:33 < kanzure> when it turns out that old preservation techniques were not sufficient, are they going to immediately dump the corpsicles?
18:34 < eudoxia> kanzure: "indistinguishable from magic!", max more shouts across a room full of dewars
18:39 < QuantumG> kanzure...
18:42 < kanzure> "nanotech!"
18:43 < kanzure> "nanotech will travel back in time and fix your mistakes"
18:43 < kanzure> "and also, it will reassemble humans from ash"
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18:58 < QuantumG> so kanzure..
19:02 < kanzure> sup
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19:09 < kanzure> he is angry about the logs being public :\
19:10 < eudoxia> how else are people going to know what a cool place this is
19:12 < kanzure> more importantly, how am i going to maintain this rate of running into myself with random queries on search engines?
19:17 < kanzure> i don't think this place would work if it was private and invite-only
19:19 < eudoxia> yeah
19:19 < eudoxia> i might have less crazy people but i don't think its worth it
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20:30 < kanzure> there's a surprisingly large number of people who counter with "the patent system encourages innovation"
20:31 < kanzure> .title http://www.wipo.int/ipstats/en/resources/patent_systems.html
20:31 < yoleaux> WIPO Index of Patent Systems
20:31 < justanotheruser> kanzure: Have you read "The Case Against IP"?
20:34 < kanzure> no, but i probably shouldn't
20:34 < kanzure> at this point the case against the patent system is rather trivial
20:35 < justanotheruser> kanzure: which is?
20:35 < kanzure> and it would just be self-indulgent of me to bother to read "the case against ip" or even "against intellectual property"
20:36 < kanzure> well, for one, studies that show that it doesn't work, like
20:36 < kanzure> http://archive.mises.org/18812/andrew-torrance-patents-and-the-regress-of-useful-arts/
20:36 < kanzure> but also stuff like this one:
20:36 < kanzure> .title http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/againstfinal.htm
20:36 < yoleaux> Against Intellectual Monopoly
20:37 < kanzure> my proposal the other day was that the patent system could be reformed by transitioning away from technology-oriented patents to technology-free patents, where the technology component is not included
20:37 < kanzure> this has lots of advantages, one of which is freeing up the patent office's backlog of 800,000 patent applications that are extremely expensive to evaluate
20:38 < kanzure> decoupled patents would take less than a second to evaluate for the patent office
20:38 < justanotheruser> kanzure: the case against patents is so trivial that you need to link me to a book 300 pages long to explain it?
20:38 < kanzure> and they could even explicitly state how much the owner is owed as a percentage of the revenue of whatever industry the patent concerns
20:38 < kanzure> 300 pages is not much!
20:38 < justanotheruser> kanzure: the book I references was 80
20:39 < justanotheruser> so I'm not sure why the triviality of the case against the patent system should require you to read 220 more pages
20:39 < kanzure> you wanted something else from me instead?
20:40 < justanotheruser> kanzure: No, it is just confusing that you implied that the book I referenced doesn't need to be read because the explanation was trivial
20:40 < justanotheruser> Then linked to a 300 page book
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20:41 < kanzure> well, now you have links to books i guess
20:42 < justanotheruser> Okay. Well does it go from a libertarian perspective? Or a utility perspective?
20:42 < justanotheruser> Because I've read the libertarian perspective, but not the utilitarian perspecitve
20:42 < kanzure> i'm not sure i'm well versed in either of those words enough to say
20:43 < justanotheruser> kanzure: does it argue that patents infringe on your property rights because you can't manipulate your property in a certain way that infringes the patents, or something else?
20:43 < kanzure> i haven't read it
20:44 < justanotheruser> Because the entire premise of that book I read was that property rights came before utility.
20:44 < justanotheruser> Rather, the government giving allowing maximum property rights was more important than the government increasing utility.
20:45 < kanzure> the origin of patents was not technology or innovation
20:45 < kanzure> rather, it was a way for a government to grant to a company the rights to some entire section of commerce
20:45 < kanzure> and then somehow technology got sucked into it somehow, probably because of kingly propaganda about how glorious the patent system was and how efficient it was
20:46 < justanotheruser> kanzure: so there is incentive to create a medication if someone can reverse engineer and produce it?
20:46 < justanotheruser> s/there is/is there
20:47 < kanzure> yep, i will absolutely fuck your patent over to save my own life
20:47 < kanzure> (for example)
20:47 < gradstudentbot> Non-binding electrons are completely useless, they should just leave.
20:48 < justanotheruser> kanzure: yes, but if company A spent $20M researching and creating a drug, company B could just make it too
20:48 < kanzure> so what?
20:48 < justanotheruser> and their prices would be a race to the bottom
20:48 < justanotheruser> So what would incentivize the company to create the $20M medication in the first place?
20:48 < kanzure> it is extremely common to overpay for technical things because nobody knows the true prices of laboratory equipment
20:49 < kanzure> s/nobody knows/almost nobody knows
20:49 < kanzure> i would argue that in the absence of incentives (like, say, profit), you should probably just focus on making medication-making cheaper in the first place
20:49 < kanzure> most of the equipment is just a lightbulb and a resistor and some $2 microcontrollers, but let's mark that up 20,000% and say it's because i'm saving your life
20:50 < justanotheruser> So you think it would be cheaper to research for a drug without patents?
20:50 < kanzure> you sound like you're on a script
20:50 < justanotheruser> kanzure: an antibiotic
20:50 < kanzure> i am not interested in having a conversation where you ask me the same questions you ask everyone about incentives for investment in biotech in the absence of patents
20:51 < kanzure> an alternative model is medical innovation prize pools, for example
20:51 < justanotheruser> okay
20:51 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/open-science-summit-2010/aiden-hollis-health-impact-fund/
20:51 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/open-science-summit-2010/jamie-love-knowledge-ecology-international/
20:51 < kanzure> hmm read those in the opposite order, otherwise wont make sense(?)
20:52 < kanzure> a lot of those $100k drugs it mentions in the first few paragraphs are totally bogus-- i mean they work, but also it's just an antibody that you can build on your own for <$30k in equipment and your time
20:55 < kanzure> nevermind, maybe i did do the right linking order..
20:57 < justanotheruser> kanzure: oh, well I'm reading it in the wrong order then
21:02 < kanzure> justanotheruser: i don't have any ideas for this yet but i was thinking there might be some way to implement an innovation prize pool using bitcoin or some related technology
21:02 < justanotheruser> kanzure: I see
21:02 < kanzure> or something along those lines.. i don't mean "patents in the blockchain", because that model is broken and wrong and doesn't make sense
21:03 < justanotheruser> What about Bitcoin would make this better?
21:03 < justanotheruser> It seems you just need to coerce people with guns to pay for this, or you need a group of very charitable people
21:04 < kanzure> there's also a third option, where people who need to develop the technology simply do so, and then show others how to build it because they want to or would find it useful to do so
21:04 < justanotheruser> Better than with USD I mean
21:05 < kanzure> like, scientists weren't coerced with guns, or given lots of money, they just did whatever they wanted
21:05 < justanotheruser> kanzure: wouldn't they be considered a group of charitable people then because they're paying (money or opportunity cost) to discover drugs/products and giving them out freely?
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21:06 < kanzure> maybe, but let's say that i want to fly, and i invent a flying machine so that i can fly, maybe i consider the fact that i fly the reward?
21:06 < kanzure> (or maybe i had other reasons to be wanting to do that, related to payoff)
21:08 < justanotheruser> kanzure: maybe, but you need to feed yourself too
21:08 < justanotheruser> And if someone can manufacture a product better than you before you make back your initial investment, you lose money
21:09 < kanzure> if someone can sell better than you, you lose money, regardless of manufacturing
21:09 < justanotheruser> Yes, I should have said sell
21:09 < justanotheruser> But how is that problem solved without an artificial government enforced monopoly
21:11 < kanzure> "there are only a limited number of players that should be able to make money in a certain area of commerce at any given time"?
21:11 < kanzure> that seems to be what your statement boils down to?
21:12 < kanzure> btw, i find that statement highly interesting, because my "decouple technology from patents" proposal was based on exactly that: make the patent office more efficient by just evaluating patents w.r.t their areas of commerce or something, don't evaluate technology, and just doll out the monopoly grants (and be explicit about it, instead of leaving it up to a judge)
21:13 < justanotheruser> kanzure: My statement boils down to "should there only be a limited number of players that should be able to make money in a certain area of commerce at any given time"?
21:14 < justanotheruser> And if there is the problem of lack of reason to invent solved
21:14 < kanzure> yeah, that's what it sounds like to me
21:14 < kanzure> for example, even in the absence of you owning patents for certain technologies, "if someone can outsell you, you lose money, which is bad"
21:14 < kanzure> and you asked "But how is that problem solved without an artificial government enforced monopoly"
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21:15 < kanzure> so maybe the government still grants those monopolies, but don't drag technology into it just because
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21:18 < kanzure> cluckj: where are you when i need you most
21:20 < kanzure> http://firedoglake.com/2012/05/14/lawrence-lessig-testimony-on-open-source-dividend-prizes-2/
21:21 < kanzure> i'm actually not very convinced by the prize pool concept
21:23 < kanzure> it would work (people would get paid, i'm sure), but i dunno if "are people getting paid?" is the only question that matters in this context
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21:40 < delinquentme> I'm blown away by what is patentable: https://www.google.com/patents/WO2006113727A2?cl=en&dq=Sam+Sia+claros&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ARqAU8DMLYyJogT0yYCYCg&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAg
21:41 < delinquentme> meandering channels used to create a wide area of measurement.
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22:14 < jrayhawk_> 18:21 < jrayhawk_> i tried to make logs work over 'Transfer-Encoding: chunked' once, but then i found out that browsers don't actually support it
22:14 < jrayhawk_> 18:21 < jrayhawk_> i hate the web
22:14 < jrayhawk_> actually i guess that's not quite true; elinks supported it
22:14 < jrayhawk_> kind of like how elinks is the only browser to support ADH in its SSL suite
22:15 < jrayhawk_> and links2 is the only browser that supports image resizing
22:15 < jrayhawk_> what is it with the twibright folks
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22:21 < jrayhawk_> is the web just completely different in czechlandia? like, everything just works and everyone cares about sane architecture?
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23:45 <@fenn> "Gestalt is an accessible and flexible control framework which aims to augment the ability of individuals to create new automated tools, and thus to self-extend their abilities to create objects which would be too tedious or impossible to create by hand. This work will enable individuals to rapidly construct controllers and rich user interfaces for automated personal fabrication tools."
23:45 <@fenn> http://pygestalt.org/VMC_IEM.pdf
23:46 <@fenn> perhaps a better explanation of pygestalt: http://mtm.cba.mit.edu/machines/stages/
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23:54 <@fenn> i think their floating rod ways really suck
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--- Log closed Sat May 24 00:00:14 2014