--- Log opened Sun May 25 00:00:15 2014
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01:18 <@fenn> "Lonely Ideas seeks to explain why Russia and the Soviet Union failed to capitalize on a rich talent pool to become a leading scientific and technical power." http://www.amazon.com/Lonely-Ideas-Can-Russia-Compete/dp/0262019795
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01:34 <@fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/lonely_ideas_can_russia_compete_loren_graham_0262019795.epub
01:36 <@fenn> the book's value is as an overview of significant contributions by soviet scientists and engineers
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02:06 < entelechy> fenn cool link
02:06 < entelechy> i was talking to some doctor out here about soviet medicine and he got all disparging about it all like 'they never invented anything'
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03:00 < seba---> what is wrong with academia
03:01 <@fenn> is that a rhetorical question?
03:07 < seba---> fenn no
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03:30 < kanzure> fenn, i'm not sure anyone has actually looked over all of the patents from the soviet union, or even all of the "inventor's certificates"
03:31 < kanzure> plus there's supposedly pre-soviet-union patent material that was abandoned
03:31 <@fenn> all 80k of them
03:31 <@fenn> abandoned?
03:31 < kanzure> abolished?
03:32 <@fenn> google does a decent job translating the OCR'd patentdb.su
03:32 <@fenn> the original motivation for the patent system was so people would contribute to a library of technical knowledge
03:32 <@fenn> in the US at least, or so i have been led to believe
03:33 < kanzure> google stops translating after 20 pages
03:33 <@fenn> yeah i saw
03:34 <@fenn> can you like, pay for their translation service? or is it another piece of google magic abandonware?
03:34 < kanzure> well as it happens russian labor is extremely cheap
03:35 <@fenn> well the automated solution already mostly works
03:35 <@fenn> i noticed it does weird things to numbers tho
03:35 < kanzure> except that you can't replicate their results on your own yet
03:35 < kanzure> so it's automated, but only in the sense that it works for slightly longer than whipping a human would
03:35 <@fenn> like your "2.8 microns" above, actually said 2-8 microns (and rendered as 8.2 for me)
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03:36 <@fenn> is it reasonable to assume that the soviet patents contain acutal inventions instead of the crank commercial bullshit that makes up most of the uspto in the past 50 years?
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03:37 <@fenn> also, off topic, is there a page i can point people to that explains concisely why php is awful and you should never use it?
03:38 < kanzure> i am sure they have glorious technology propaganda https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U0-O8r6RlM&t=30
03:38 < kanzure> http://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
03:38 <@fenn> already "fractal" is too complicated for the target audience
03:40 <@fenn> in brlcad just now, "Being a novice, right now I wish to save as much time as I can rather than straying around learning new tools/frameworks." from the guy building a web interface to a materials database (sound familiar?)
03:40 <@fenn> gsoc student
03:40 < kanzure> i chewed out the last guy working on a thing similar to that in #brlcad, and instead the military pros shitcanned me
03:40 < kanzure> it's not worth it
03:41 < kanzure> these people are at different places in their lives where thoughtful irc words are seen as harmful
03:41 <@fenn> mike tegtmeyer? (mtegtmeyer)
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03:42 < kanzure> pft i don't remember
03:42 <@fenn> sean (brlcad) seemed quite patient and forgiving when dealing with a particularly overly-sensitive/defensive gsoc student
03:43 < kanzure> it's probably in his job description
03:43 < kanzure> i wouldn't read much into it
03:45 <@fenn> omg is wikipedia actually PHP
03:45 < kanzure> mediawiki is entirely php, duh
03:46 < kanzure> what do you think all the ".php" shit is in all the wikipedia urls?
03:46 <@fenn> is there like sensible-language2php compiler
03:46 < kanzure> hiphop?
03:46 <@fenn> no, uh, nevermind
03:46 < kanzure> i don't mean the pokemon
03:47 <@fenn> i'm just sort of amazed, that's all
03:47 < kanzure> or the amazing music genre
03:47 <@fenn> you mean terrible, not amazing
03:47 < kanzure> i just got out of the vietnam dream war, don't mess with me
03:47 <@fenn> unless you meant "amazingly terrible, i can't believe how terrible it is"
03:49 < kanzure> "Mr Jan Kees de Jager was there. He is the previous Secretary of the Treasury of the Netherlands. He was not negative about Bitcoin (but warned about its use due to volatility) and even admitted he owned bitcoins."
03:50 <@fenn> so what
03:50 < kanzure> it's funny, that's what
03:50 < kanzure> let me write a terrible pile of C++, and oh yeah this treasury dude is going to buy something about this in 5 years because uh, well because he doesn't have any better ideas
03:52 <@fenn> i love reading programming articles on simple wikipedia
03:54 < kanzure> dassault is acquiring accelrys http://www.3ds.com/about-3ds/announcement/accelrys/
03:55 <@fenn> "Accelrys, a leading provider of scientific innovation lifecycle management software for chemistry, biology and materials"
03:55 < kanzure> "Combining with Accelrys will enrich the molecular chemistry capabilities from discovery to manufacturing and regulatory requirements of Dassault Systèmes’ formulation-based industry offerings such as life sciences, consumer packaged goods, high tech and energy, as well as advanced manufacturing industries.  Accelrys’ list of 2,000 customers includes many of the Fortune 500 companies, with major industry players in pharma/biotech, ...
03:55 < kanzure> ... consumer packaged goods and chemical including Sanofi, Pfizer, GSK, AstraZeneca, DuPont, Shell, BASF, P&G, Unilever and L’Oréal."
03:55 < kanzure> i have no idea what they actually do
03:55 <@fenn> sounds like environmental stuff
03:55 <@fenn> "does it biodegrade?"
03:56 < kanzure> wasn't pfizer trying to buy astrazeneca for $100 billion
03:56 < kanzure> http://accelrys.com/about/news-pr/biovia-announcement.html
03:57 < kanzure> this is their product line: http://www.3ds.com/products-services/biovia
03:58 < kanzure> amazing how little it says
03:59 < kanzure> truly a work of unart
04:01 < kanzure> ok i have to re-join the troops, they were surrounding a pelican but i had to get the gameboy from the helicopter
04:04 <@fenn> war is hell, man
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04:33 <@fenn> http://phpsadness.com/
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07:37 < kanzure> victory, but i lost the taco place and the school
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07:58 < dingo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjjydz40rNI ( http://kohala.com/start/unp.html )
07:59 <@fenn> Wayne's World 2: "That's a Unix book."
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08:00  * fenn mumbles something about /etc/init.d/raptor_fence restart
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08:06 < catern> someone should rewrite mediawiki in node.js, i'm sure that would go over well
08:07 <@fenn> ouch, the electroluminescent display panels i was looking at were quoted at $750
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08:32 < streety> kanzure, the pfizer offer for astra zeneca was more than that, almost 120 billion
08:33 < streety> supposedly pfizer will announce it is moving on tomorrow
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09:33 < andytoshi> paperbot: http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/aid.1992.8.1897
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09:57 < kanzure> .title
09:57 < yoleaux> An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
09:58 <@fenn> welp that's exactly what the page says
09:58 <@fenn> "Characterization of the Specificity of the Human Antibody Response to the V3 Neutralization Domain of HIV-1"
10:12 < paperbot> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/_weakrefset.py", line 73, in __contains__)
10:27 < andytoshi> is there a better link i could've used? that journal is infuriating
10:27 < andytoshi> the paper is not on libgen, i couldn't get it from the networks of 3 different unis
10:27 < kanzure> last resort is email the authors and beg
10:28 < kanzure> ultra last resort is kidnap author's daughter
10:28 < andytoshi> :P nah, my gf needs it for work (some meta-analysis or something), she'll be able to get it tomorrow when she's physically at the building
10:29 < andytoshi> she works at a bioinformatics lab, they'll have journal access that the unis don't
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11:00 < kanzure> "german transhumanist society" http://eudetrans.wordpress.com/mitgliedschaftmembership/
11:00 < kanzure> doesn't seem to have eleitl involvement.. seems worthless to me.
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11:00 < kanzure> way to go, germany
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11:17 < kanzure> i can't seem to set the coordinates of a TopoDS_Vertex
11:18 < kanzure> i would expect to be able to convert a OCC.gp.gp_Pnt into a OCC.TopoDS.TopoDS_Vertex
11:18 < kanzure> but the TopODS_Vertex constructor doesn't take anything like coordinates, and none of its member functions accept coordinates either
11:18 < kanzure> oops i mean TopoDS_Vertex
11:20 < kanzure> does "second to last" mean -3 or does it mean -2?
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12:15 < kanzure> .title http://direct.mises.org/daily/3631/
12:15 < yoleaux> The Fallacy of Intellectual Property
12:15 < kanzure> justanotheruser: that might interest you (that author has also written on bitcoin.. and strangely enough, i met him before his interest in bitcoin a few years ago, and then promptly forgot about him)
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12:28 < jrayhawk_> http://respiratory-research.com/content/pdf/1465-9921-15-31.pdf "The vitamin E isoforms α-tocopherol and
12:28 < jrayhawk_> γ-tocopherol have opposite associations with
12:28 < jrayhawk_> spirometric parameters: the CARDIA study"
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12:43 < justanotheruser> kanzure: that pretty much is the same argument against intellectual property the book had
12:44 < justanotheruser> The real question is whether the purpose of the government should be to protect liberties, or to protect liberties a little less and increase utility
12:50 < FourFire> kanzure, what exactly does eleitl involvement signify?
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12:55 < eudoxia> no eleitl involvement: greg egan circlejerk
12:55 < eudoxia> eleitl involvement: at the very least nanosystems circlejerk
12:58 < FourFire> nanobot technology seems a bit dissapointing so far, is noone trying to reach it by way of successively smaller robotics tech?
12:58 < FourFire> The only thing I've found so far is this: http://www.microbotmedical.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11&Itemid=36&lang=en
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13:05 < eudoxia> i don't care about nanorobots, i want computer-controlled, atomically-precise manufacturing
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13:25 < kanzure> well, at minimum it signifies they have an interest in someone who has actual equipment and is doing things, like cryopreservation stuff, and worm uploading things, and whatever recent snail uploading stuff he's doing
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13:47 < seba---> kanzure what's wrong with academia
13:48 < kanzure> what perspective should i start with?
13:49 < kanzure> student debt, cut-throat no-money-available funding for research, fucked up philanthropic non-profit organizations that are highly ineffective, the concept that "filtering" by "degrees" works, ...
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13:52 < seba---> yashgaroth, why did you go out of academia asap
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13:56 < yashgaroth> many reasons
13:57 < yashgaroth> I didn't like the idea of slaving away for a PI who was either broke or an asshole, potentially both
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13:58 < yashgaroth> unless I got extremely lucky with the research they were doing, it'd be either 12-14 hour days or 10 years of my life
13:58 < kanzure> no amount of $25k/year postdoc salary can be wort hthat
13:58 < kanzure> *worth that
13:59 < yashgaroth> also I graduated right after the great recession, or whatever it's called, no one could get a decent job so everyone fled to grad school
14:00 < seba---> i think i want to stay in academia
14:00 < seba---> lo
14:00 < seba---> lol
14:00 < yashgaroth> and now I know so many unemployed bio PhDs it's almost funny
14:01 < yashgaroth> if you're in pchem you do alright either way, I'd imagine
14:01 < seba---> i'm nowhere
14:02 < seba---> :D
14:02 < seba---> just a student atm lol
14:02 < kanzure> yashgaroth: i'm still trying to figure out a way to take advantage of all the cheap science labor
14:02 < kanzure> yashgaroth: part of the problem is that the postdoc labor is slightly elitist and often doesn't want to work for peanuts for a no-name operation
14:02 < kanzure> yashgaroth: however, i imagine destitution might change that opinion
14:03 < yashgaroth> no one will hire them for anything below a staff scientist position, so they've locked themselves out of 80% of the job market
14:03 < kanzure> i mean, for $25k/year, hell yeah i'd hire an antibody expert
14:04 < yashgaroth> as long as you start the Kanzure Institute and get them published, you'll find tons
14:04 < kanzure> but, randomly hiring trained people is not a recipe for success, gotta put them to use on something productive
14:06 < seba---> north korea should hire them
14:06 < yashgaroth> all the grass you can eat
14:06 < kanzure> why should north korea hire tem?
14:06 < kanzure> *them
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14:07 < seba---> to make a mutant flu-rabbies virus
14:07 < kanzure> can't they do that anywhere else?
14:10 < FourFire> what would you want them to do a K.I. Kanzure?
14:10 < kanzure> build equipment
14:12 < kanzure> cnc stuff, atomic force microscopes, scanning electron scopes, dna synthesis machines, maybe at least one dna sequencer, photolithography things (for pdms stuff and semiconductor stuff), etc
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14:14 < kanzure> microelectrode arrays, microantenna arrays, piezoelectric arrays, etc
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14:45 < kanzure> "Innovations by firms producing production equipment have sparked many of the critical technological advances of the past two centuries.[6] With the growing specialization of industrial activity, technological progress in manufacturing sectors has become increasingly yoked to technological developments in the sectors from which manufacturers buy their capital goods. Put another way, productivity increases by firms in the manufacturing ...
14:46 < kanzure> ... industries have come to depend increasingly upon skills and resources located in their supplier firms. For example, textile firms that once produced their own machines turned to an increasingly independent set of specialized machinery producers as the market for such machinery grew and the mcahines themselves became increasingly complex.[7] Chemical firms that used to design their own production facilities came to rely increasingly on ...
14:46 < kanzure> ... specialized contractors for the construction of new plants.[8] In these instances, skills and resources that were once internal to the manufacturer became external; they may have also become, over time, increasingly unfamiliar."
14:52 < FourFire> interesting, what's the name of that concept?
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15:01 < kanzure> jack kilby's original integrated circuit http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/42/Kilby_solid_circuit.jpg
15:01 < kanzure> http://bizbeatblog.dallasnews.com/2014/05/christies-will-auction-prototype-microchip-used-in-first-integrated-circuit-by-texas-instruments-jack-kilby.html/
15:01 < kanzure> "UPDATE AT 8 P.M.: “This is a mystery to us and we’re looking into it,” said TI spokeswoman Whitney Jodry. TI couldn’t confirm whether the chip to be auctioned is an original or not."
15:04 < kanzure> "In September 1957, Dummer presented a model to illustrate the possibilities of solid-circuit techniques—a flip-flop in the form of a solid block of semiconductor material, suitably doped and shaped to form four transistors. Four resistors were represented by silicon bridges, and other resistors and capacitors were deposited in film form directly onto the silicon block with intervening insulating films. Dummer's ideas however remained ...
15:05 < kanzure> ... unrealized and relatively unknown, because the UK military failed to perceive any operational requirements for ICs, and UK companies were unwilling to invest their own money. Dummer later said: “I have attributed it to war-weariness in one of my books, but that is perhaps an excuse. The plain fact is that nobody would take the risk. The Ministry wouldn’t place a contract because they hadn’t an application. The applications people ...
15:05 < kanzure> ... wouldn’t say we want it, because they had no experience with it."
15:09 < kanzure> "you can't project graphs on a plane! that's madness!"
15:15 < kanzure> "After graduation, I was hired by Centralab, a Milwaukee-based electronics manufacturer. They made parts for radios, televisions and hearing aids. Centralab was a fortunate choice for me, because they worked with hybrid circuits - an early form of miniaturization. Centralab also developed what would become known as thick-film hybrid circuits. In this process, silver paint was deposited on a ceramic substrate - or base layer - to form ...
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15:16 < kanzure> ... conductors. Carbon-based inks formed resistors. Small capacitors were formed in the substrate, and larger ones were attached. The necessary vacuum tubes could then be attached with sockets or soldered directly to the substrate[4]. [...] In 1951, Bell Labs held their first transistor symposium and began licensing transistor technology for a $25,000 fee. At this time, Centralab became interested in making transistors and acquired a license. ...
15:16 < kanzure> ... We built a reduction furnace, crsyal puller and zone refiner."
15:16 < gradstudentbot> You know, I hear you make more money being a garbage man.
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15:23 < kanzure> "Semiconductor miniaturization was contrary to most other major efforts at the time, which fell into three basic categories. One group felt the main problem was the assembly of individual parts, and that by making all parts the same size and shape, they could automate the assembly process. A second group thought that thin-films were the way to go - a more modern form of the thick-film technology used at Centralab. Both of these approaches ...
15:23 < kanzure> ... would have used conventional transistors and assembled them to other components. A third group felt a more radical approach must be taken. They felt that our knowledge of material was now complete enough so that entirely new structures could be invented to perform circuit functions. A quartz crystal, which performed the functions of an inductor and capacitor, was the favorite example [7]. It was clear to me that one of the major problems ...
15:23 < kanzure> ... with all of the existing approaches to microminiaturization was that they involved different materials and fabrication processes. I began to consider an approach that would reduce the number of both. Therefore, I built up a circuit using discrete - or separate - silicon elements, starting with packaged grown-junction transistors. I formed resistors by cutting small bars of silicon and etchin them to the required values. Meanwhile, ...
15:23 < kanzure> ... capacitors were cut from diffused silicon power transistor wafers, which had been metallized on both sides. But since I had used discrete components, it was not, of course, an integrated circuit. At the time, TI was very strong in grown-junction devices and had just begun to work seriously on diffused structures. Several small-signal germanium devices also were in production. The emitter and base contacts were evaporated through metal ...
15:23 < kanzure> ... masks. Mesas were etched after hand masking with black wax."
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15:27 < kanzure> [7] is something about "molecular dendritic approach"
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15:36 < kanzure> something about an "optical transistor" http://arphotonics.net/arpdendrimernpicwpaper.pdf
15:37 < FourFire> About time!
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15:38 < gradstudentbot> So, people always joke about that, but I feel like weaving baskets underwater would not be the easiest thing in the world.
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15:43 < kanzure> "Etching nyancat? pssht. He could be etching analog circuit components on 1D copper, meaning inductors, resistors, and capacitors with the two stage tech he already has. Presto – analog flip-flops and multi-vibrators… but instead, we get nyancat. That’s fine, but dude – make something."
15:44 < kanzure> "I’m currently in the process of designing and building a contact mask aligner for 2-inch wafers that will use commercially made 8000DPI masks from laserlab.com (about $50 per 12×18 inch sheet; this is enough for a full set of masks on a 2-inch wafer). If all goes according to plan at that point I’ll be able to do full-wafer lithography at the 12.5um node."
15:44 < kanzure> "I’m involved with John McMaster and the Silicon Pr0n team and we have no shortage of 74xx / CD4xx samples around to work with."
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15:48 < kanzure> *crystal puller
15:49 < FourFire> how do you etch on 1D objects?
15:50 < kanzure> not sure, ask the homecmos people i suppose. hm.
15:53 < kanzure> .wik MOSIS
15:53 < yoleaux> "MOSIS (Metal Oxide Semiconductor Implementation Service) is probably the oldest (1981) integrated circuit (IC) foundry service and one of the first Internet services other than supercomputing services and basic infrastructure such as E-mail or File Transfer Protocol (FTP)." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSIS
15:54 < kanzure> .wik multi-project wafer service
15:55 < yoleaux> "Multi-project chip (MPC), also known as multi-project wafer (MPW), services integrate onto microelectronics wafers a number of different integrated circuit designs from various teams including designs from private firms, students and researchers from universities." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-project_wafer_service
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15:55 < kanzure> "For example, a 2.4GHz IC design may demand a tapeout that costs more than $ 100k at MOSIS"
15:55 < kanzure> wow that's actually higher than i expected, the other asic services are like <$10k for a few parts on a wafer run
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16:01 < kanzure> http://www.darpa.mil/Our_Work/MTO/Programs/Maskless_Nanowriter.aspx " The goal of the Maskless Nanowriter program is to produce a maskless electron-beam-direct-write (EBDW) lithography tool using a novel reflection electron beam lithography (REBL) concept. A critical differentiating component of the Maskless Nanowriter concept is the use of a reflective electron beam pattern generator that converts design data for an integrated circuit into a ...
16:01 < kanzure> ... column of 1 million parallel electron beams, controlled and modulated individually to write a circuit pattern directly onto a wafer at very high throughput.  With a total beam current of 4.5 microamps projected to the wafer, 5-to-7 300-millimeter wafer levels can be patterned per hour, representing a write-speed more than 100 times faster than what is available from existing single electron beam, direct-write technology."
16:02 < kanzure> how is that integrated chip manufacturing still requires 8-12 steps of stupidly-expensive equipment processing?
16:04 < kanzure> oh brother... maskless lithography inc model 2027 machine, http://www.pcb007.com/articlefiles/84033-ScreenShot010.jpg
16:04 < kanzure> "now matches your terrible xerox copying machine"
16:06 < kanzure> oh they are a recent company http://venturebeat.com/2010/08/03/circuit-board-printer-maskless-lithography-gets-4-1m/
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16:16 < kanzure> wasn't there something from the reprap people about thin-film integrated circuits
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16:17 < kanzure> http://www.andaquartergetsyoucoffee.com/wp/?page_id=130
16:17 < kanzure> .title
16:17 < yoleaux> And a Quarter Gets You Coffee   » Homemade Thin-Film Transistor Experiments
16:17 < kanzure> no that wasn't it..
16:17 < kanzure> http://www.appropedia.org/Viability_of_3-D_printing_pentacene_semiconductors_for_use_in_RFID_tags_on_helmets
16:17 < kanzure> no..
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16:18 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=b96ef20c Bryan Bishop: TopoDS_Vertex and gp_Pnt conversion >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/
16:18 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=ff3d8dfb Bryan Bishop: also grab a copy of appropedia >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/wikis/
16:20 < kanzure> .title http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?13,3296
16:20 < yoleaux> RepRap Transistor / Polymer Doping
16:20 < kanzure> yeah i can't find evidence that mr kim existed, but i'm sure it's in the logs
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16:22 < kanzure> huh, it is not
16:22 < kanzure> maybe i dreamed it
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17:16 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_equipment_sales_leaders_by_year
17:17 < kanzure> "For example, RED Equipment ($50M+ sales in 2011) provides secondary semiconductor equipment, parts and services including equipment remarketing, de-installation, relocation, refurbishment, installation. Whereas other companies provide some of these services or services for particular tool sets, RED Equipment is unique in that it works on a turnkey 'project process', providing the full range of services for virtually all 200 mm tool sets."
17:18 < kanzure> http://www.redequipment.com/
17:19 < kanzure> nope nothing there
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17:36 < kanzure> http://utwired.engr.utexas.edu/lff/symposium/proceedingsArchive/pubs/Manuscripts/2007/2007-06-Havener.pdf "Organic electrochemical transistors (OECTs) are less sensitive to size than FETs. They rely on bulk electrochemical reactions in the active material to switch on and off, making distances less important than is the case with field-effect transistors. None of the printed layers of OECTs need to be extremely thin, and OECTs with key ...
17:36 < kanzure> ... features on the orde rof millimeters are functional, as we report here and is reported elsewhere (Robinson et al, 2006). These same properties of OECTs also make them significantly slower than FETs, but this is acceptable for our current needs."
17:42 < kanzure> geeze only cited 5 times since 2007
17:45 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2555761
17:45 < kanzure> .title
17:45 < yoleaux> JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
17:45 < kanzure> argh <title> should have been "Underinvestment and Incompetence as Responses to Radical Innovation: Evidence from the Photolithographic Alignment Equipment Industry"
17:45 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/21cf405fbb2b2dcaa6cf2a2288aa59e0.txt
17:46 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/.U4KOb1RDs-M
17:46 < kanzure> "Destroying the Myth of Vertical Integration in the Japanese Electronics Industry: Restructuring in the Semiconductor Manufacturing Equipment Industry"
17:46 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/cfc59d9a8d81b13267d84e1a1ba321c0.txt
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18:16 < kanzure> paperbot: http://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/orsc.9.4.489
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18:33 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/515af2f67f38e8753e73499cfa0837d1.txt
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18:55 < kanzure> neat, grandma is a tor user
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19:37 < kanzure> dingo: jstor is doing bad google things. google scholar is displaying links as "[pdf] jstor.org" but people without google ip-addresses get shown no-pdf-available pages.
19:37 < dingo> i know, theres special code for that
19:38 < dingo> and you can see it, too, let me see if i can find it
19:39 < dingo> oh i think it might be locked down to google's IP, but theres a (very expensive, takes like ~10 minutes to render) xml api endpoint of Journals/Issues and IP address ranges authorized to view it
19:40 < kanzure> isn't google supposed to penalize things like that, or at least detect that the pdf is not being shown to end users, and therefore should not render it as "[pdf] jstor.org"
19:40 < kanzure> because every other publisher gives pdfs to google, and google does not render them as "[pdf] elsevier.com"
19:40 < kanzure> so either this is google scholar's fault or jstor is cheating
19:41 < dingo> no it was strictly on google's request, so that they could display only issues/journals you have access to by your IP address
19:43 < kanzure> welp someone broke something, because jstor does not give me access to this file as a pdf
19:43 < kanzure> only through their shitty online viewer thing
19:44 < dingo> > The "signal" is definitely a 403 ("forbidden") http response.
19:44 < dingo> > As of this writing (12/1/10), trying to "prove that it works" actually pr=
19:44 < dingo> oved the existence of a bug.
19:44 < dingo> >>> I can tell you that when google's crawler fetches the item view page, l=
19:44 < dingo> iteratum identifies it so, and gives it the PDF. PDF's are also the source =
19:44 < dingo> of google's understanding of our articles (title & body content).
19:45 < dingo> ahh shit
19:46 < dingo> i wrote the document on it, but it was on an internal wiki, i didn't steal it away
19:47 < kanzure> did jstor do specific search engine things for other search engines?
19:47 < kanzure> like, say, duckduckgo?
19:49 < dingo> http://pastebin.com/gnpPcY5c
19:49 < dingo> yes. many do, aparently
19:49 < dingo> google sent us the xml format they wanted
19:49 < kanzure> "This is a private paste."
19:50 < kanzure> i wonder if i could convince them that i'm a search engine
19:50 < kanzure> and not someone that likes to read papers /a lot/
19:51 < dingo> yes, you can, actually, seriously
19:51 < dingo> contact the advanced technology and research division
19:51 < dingo> if the person who replies is Ron Snyder
19:51 < dingo> tell him my full name that I sent you
19:51 < dingo> claim a university you work in and doing a project for
19:51 < dingo> some analyitics
19:51 < dingo> they'll give you dumps
19:51 < kanzure> cool thanks
19:51 < dingo> i got an email, let me see
19:52 < dingo> http://dfr.jstor.org/fsearch/contact?view=text&
19:52 < dingo> use this and address it to 'Ron'
19:52 < kanzure> rofl a contact us form
19:52 < kanzure> how much data is it going to be?
19:53 < dingo> so when i worked there, i was on the other end, I'd build dumps, $0, for researchers
19:53 < dingo> it could be all of the metadata (everything but OCR) for entire disciplines
19:53 < kanzure> does it include non-OCR content, like images or pdfs?
19:53 < dingo> nope.
19:53 < dingo> just meta.
19:53 < gradstudentbot> You know they keep the mice in better conditions than us.
19:53 < dingo> one researcher who worked in OCR, it included both our OCR and an API to retrieve images
19:54 < kanzure> then how does google match my queries to content inside the documents?
19:54 < dingo> they OCR our pdf's
19:54 < kanzure> but the api only gives metadata?
19:54 < dingo> our PDF's have OCR, and we give google article authors, at the least -- but they actually, last i knew -- they chose their own OCR engine over our meta
19:55 < kanzure> then how did they get the image content?
19:55 < dingo> google? gets images?
19:55 < kanzure> the pdf-image documents
19:55 < gradstudentbot> I think there's a biobrick for that.
19:56 < dingo> jstor's pdf's are all images -- even the text -- it is hidden text behind the images
19:56 < dingo> the xml for the OCR looks like x,y coordinates of x1,y1,x2,y2 bounding boxes for each chunk of text
19:56 < kanzure> so they give the pdfs to search engines, but not to researchers?
19:56 < dingo> oh no, researches get the very same pdf's, absolutely the same
19:56 < dingo> as for the meta, thats what this 'google crawl gateway' is for
19:57 < kanzure> but you said "just meta."
19:57 < kanzure> v. confused
19:57 < dingo> arently its crawlsite.jstor.org
19:57 < dingo> doesn't resolve so i guess its out of date
19:57 < dingo> there was confusion at jstor too -- google scholar is actually less than 3 employees in total, so, its hard to keep in touch
19:58 < dingo> but there was thoughts that either 1. they ignored our meta completely and used their own OCR on our pdf's to gather them, or 2., used our meta, but often fucked it up...
19:58 < dingo> because there was a lot of confusion, why only 3 of 5 authors would be attributed authorship, for example
20:00 < dingo> http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=nGEWZbkAAAAJ thats the guy at google scholar who knows all your answers
20:00 < kanzure> "Anurag Acharya"
20:01 < kanzure> apparently i met him 2010-04-15
20:09 < kanzure> "This study has attempted to identify the economic depreciation of machinery and equipment
20:09 < kanzure> used in the machine tool industry. The results suggest that the average total lives for
20:09 < kanzure> machinery and equipment is in excess of 25 years"
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20:44 < kanzure> http://www.vat19.com/dvds/magnetic-thinking-putty.cfm
21:10 < kanzure> fenn: you should go yell at this person for being an idiot http://fabacademy.org/archives/2014/projects/sanchez.francisco/index.html
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23:53 <@fenn> hm i had the same idea a long time ago for an on-the-wall cnc machine
23:54 <@fenn> but you're right i should definitely go hang out at a beach fab lab
23:54 < kanzure> fenn, why are precision cnc machines costly? given the market for $500-$2000 cnc machines that seem to only cut wod
23:55 < kanzure> *wood
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--- Log closed Mon May 26 00:00:15 2014