--- Log opened Sun Jun 01 00:00:21 2014
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01:48 < archels> so much of the ethical concerns about the
01:48 < archels> feelings of the emulation miss the point that these things can be stopped,
01:48 < archels> reversed and corrected at a later time. So any ethical cost to the
01:48 < archels> emulation can be completely undone.
01:48 < archels> that's an interesting thesis
01:49 < archels> torture a virtual person for a decade, then just hit reset and it's all good?
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02:30 < FourFire> archels, well that depends doesn't it?
02:31 < FourFire> what is the harm caused by torturing someone for ten years?
02:31 < FourFire> is it mostly the initial pain, or the mentally scarred brain trying to function afterwards?
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02:32 < FourFire> if the latter, then i think you can say that it's "only a bit" immoral to torture a mind for ten subjective years, so long as you revert it
02:32 < FourFire> but if it is the former, then I don't agree
02:36 < archels> there's more than just those two options though
02:37 < archels> for example, there are also the opportunities and subjective satisfaction that this treatment forecloses for the emulated animal/person
02:38 < archels> and it's been argued that maltreatment of animals harms our own humanity (putting the actual harm to the actual animal in the second place)
02:39 < FourFire> ok
02:40 < FourFire> ideally, we could manufacture meat without any brains being involved
02:40 < FourFire> I'm not sure what relevance improved meat and animal product production has to do with torturing minds for ten years
02:42 < archels> oh sorry, this was in the context of research on virtual animals; with whole-brain emulation as the extreme case
02:45 < FourFire> oh ok
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04:31 < Burninate> paperbot http://www.sciencemag.org/content/early/2014/05/28/science.1253512
04:32 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/a05aa85e7c775fcaa96ed5c98de69c60.txt
04:33 < Burninate> paperbot http://www.sciencemag.org/content/early/2014/05/28/science.1253512.full.pdf
04:33 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/bfb313ff6ba3b31586bce0a27252da09.txt
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08:09 < eudoxia> i think it's ethical to make copies of yourself to test various brain modifications and then off them
08:09 < eudoxia> i mean they essentially agreed to it by being you ;)
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08:55 < joepie91__> if you were to have two identical clones of an individual, would their behaviour be deterministic; that is, would they behave identically assuming they physically start out in approximately the same place?
08:57 < chris_99> i think they've have to start out in exactly the same place
08:58 < chris_99> if you took two brains and fed the same sensory input though...
09:00 < joepie91__> chris_99: I'd be curious to know how a somewhat different starting position (assuming full clones incl. bodies), like, standing next to each other, would affect the decisionmaking and behaviour...
09:00 < joepie91__> intuitively, I'd expect it to cause a butterfly-effect-like behaviour
09:00 < joepie91__> or different in behaviour, rather
09:00 < joepie91__> where each diversion from the, well, sensory input of the other would drive the behaviour further apart
09:00 < joepie91__> in a snowball effect so to say
09:00 < joepie91__> but that's entirely unsubstantiated theoretical reasoning :P
09:01 < chris_99> i'd be curious what neuroscientists would say about it
09:03 < joepie91__> s/different/difference/
09:03 < joepie91__> brain not fully operational yet, needs more food and/or caffeine
09:08 < kanzure> if you start asking "if you go to sleep and someone exact replicas you, are you really ethical" then i'll ban you
09:08 < kanzure> and everyone else for that matter
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09:09 < kanzure> the lesswrong people see mto enjoy going around in endless circles on topics of that nature, have at it
09:09 < kanzure> *seem to
09:25 < chris_99> http://www.vox.com/2014/5/19/5729182/the-case-for-raising-chickens-in-virtual-reality
09:25 < chris_99> personally i think that's just stupid
09:26 < chris_99> (in that they should just let them be free range)
09:27 < joepie91__> .. wat
09:27 < joepie91__> (the 'wat' being regarding the idea described in the article)
09:29 < chris_99> seems pretty crazy
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10:15 < kanzure> .title http://www.ocpi.cu/
10:15 < yoleaux> Pagina Web de la Oficina Cubana de la Propiedad Industrial
10:58 < chris_99> what's a decent OSS cad program?
11:00 < joepie91__> chris_99: FreeCAD, supposedly
11:00 < kanzure> brlcad and https://github.com/kanzure/python-brlcad
11:00 < joepie91__> (can't say I do any CAD work myself, so no idea if it's really as good as people tell me)
11:00 < kanzure> freecad crashes every 10 seconds because opencascade is evil
11:00 < kanzure> and their python bindings are broken (it works the wrong way: you must load freecad to use the freecad bindings? fuck that! might as well use pythonocc and bypass freecad)
11:01 < chris_99> i'll have a looky cheers guys
11:06 < archels> joepie91__: yeah, of course the physical state of the clones would start to diverge after a Planck time or so
11:07 < archels> only in a highly idealised, fully deterministic mathematical model would this be prevent
11:07 < chris_99> do neutrinos ever effect the brain?
11:07 < archels> neutrinos very, very rarely interact with matter at all
11:07 < chris_99> yeah
11:07 < chris_99> but sometimes they do right
11:09 < archels> sure, we can detect them after all
11:10 < archels> but that requires a fairly massive detector and a lot of patience
11:10 < chris_99> mm
11:12 < nshsome> neutrinos affect the brains having this conversaiton
11:12 < nshsome> through mechanisms much more subtle than any conceived force-mediated particle interaction
11:35 < kanzure> .title http://www.aripo.wipo.net/
11:35 < yoleaux> AFRICAN REGIONAL INDUSTRIAL PROPERTY ORGANIZATION
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12:00 < kanzure> .gc "toaster technology"
12:00 < yoleaux> 11,800 (site), 14,000 (end), 201 (api)
12:04 < kanzure> "Right, but can you point to where the patent system has actually created a problem for the open source hardware community yet?"
12:18 < kanzure> man, for a mailing list called "open manufacturing", nobody seems to understand what "open source" is https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/openmanufacturing/vS4ju1VqXb0
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13:39 < catern> kanzure: lots of people don't know what patents were originally, so your proposal just seems weird and arbitrary to them. if you explained the history first you'd do better
13:42 < kanzure> even without the historical context, patents are still pretty weird
13:42 < kanzure> why do they have anything to do with technology? it's such a silly idea
13:44 < catern> typical argument is: because it's more fair to reward people who deserve it, and demonstrating some technology shows you deserve it
13:45 < kanzure> technology just seems to be tacked on
13:45 < kanzure> why not show you deserve it by doing a funny dance
13:47 < catern> maybe this is more subtle and you're understanding something I'm not, because I don't really understand your reform proposal, but: because technology is important and we want to incentivize it?
13:47 < catern> and we don't care about funny dances as much relative to technology
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13:48 < seba-> if you look what was before patents
13:48 < seba-> patents make sense
13:48 < seba-> the only problem is that they are abusing patents now
13:48 < kanzure> what do yo umean "patents make sense if you look what was before patents".. just because the previous system was shit does not give you the pass to propose a still shitty system.
13:49 < seba-> before patents
13:49 < seba-> people kept their know-how totally secret
13:49 < seba-> and a lot of times knowledge was lots
13:49 < seba-> because they died
13:49 < kanzure> catern: it looks like the invention patents were literally just some shitty king's attempt to get out of trouble. so he picked something random and said "okay fine, now it's about technoloy". that doesn't mean that he actually studied whether or not it was a good idea re: innovation or incentives...
13:50 < kanzure> *now it's about technology
13:50 < kanzure> *you mean
13:56 < kanzure> seba-: no, before patents there were books just like any other century
13:57 < nmz787> anyone here use this before? http://www.freerouting.net/
13:57 < FourFire> seba-, that still happens, do you know about "starlite" ?
13:57 < nmz787> it is what kicad tells users to use
13:57 < FourFire> seba-, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarLite
13:57 < nmz787> first you have to export some file from your PCB layout, then open that (java applet), and let it run
13:58 < nmz787> "The router fits together with FreePCB, Kicad, gEDA, CadSoft-Eagle and all host PCB design software containing an interface to the Specctra or Electra autorouter."
13:58 < nmz787> huh, I guess this is the dude http://alfonswirtz.de/
14:04 < kanzure> paperbot: http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/jpatos18&div=8&id=&page=
14:04 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/2bdd604f90a7ffd08777a1185426d68d.txt
14:09 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/Generally%20inconvenient:%20the%201624%20Statute%20of%20Monopolies%20as%20political%20compromise.pdf
14:25 < kanzure> hahaha there was a monopoly granted for going into people's homes and digging for manure "but it had to be only between sunrise and sunset", (England ca. 1606)
14:26 < seba-> FourFire what's with starlite?
14:33 < kanzure> "There was also no successful legal challenge to the monopolistic trading corporations, and there were judicial statements in support of patents of invention.203 It is, therefore, possible that only illegal monopolies were contrary to law.204 This accords with the perspective of the mercantilists. For them, if a restraint was for the public benefit — for the common wealth — it was not an abusive monopoly.205 The lack of clarity around the ...
14:33 < kanzure> ... phrases ‘new Manufactures’ and ‘monopoly’ could, therefore, be intentional. The broad thrust of the Statute of Monopolies, then, may be aimed at the general, and perhaps too much focus on the specific limitations of words in s 6 of the Act is counter to the intent of the drafters.
14:34 < kanzure> "The public interest aspect of the test in the Statute of Monopolies is more evident in the final policy-focused phrase ‘generally inconvenient’. Again, there is no clear definition of this concept; however, different interpretations have been suggested. According to one commentator, the Commons found a patent inconvenient if the grant, ‘though clearly obnoxious or injurious to the commonwealth, could not be proved definitely ...
14:34 < kanzure> ... illegal.’206"
14:34 < FourFire> seba-, dude who invented it kept the secret for himself, and died with it
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14:35 < kanzure> "Further, Coke himself, in his commentary on the Statute of Monopolies, stated that an invention was ‘inconvenient’, and therefore contrary to the Act, if it turned ‘many labouring men to idlenesse’.208 It is possible, then, that the ‘generally inconvenient’ test was intended to be a broad public benefit test209 — that is, if a patent for invention was not in the public interest (such as in terms of its effect on employment), ...
14:35 < kanzure> ... then it would be contrary to the Act and, as a result, not granted.210"
14:35 < seba-> FourFire, invented what
14:36 < FourFire> Starlite
14:36 < seba-> what's that
14:37 < FourFire> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarLite
14:38 < seba-> i don't see what was the innovation FourFire
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14:42 < kanzure> the folklore surrounding patents is extremely dense considering the obviously-poorly-considered origins. and most of the folklore seems to have nothing to do with the original purpose or nature of patents (which hasn't changed, with the exception of how people discuss it).
14:42 < kanzure> and also, it's interesting how quick people are to defend the purity of patent law, compared to the defense of other laws
14:44 < seba-> purity?
14:44 < seba-> tf
14:44 < seba-> wtf
14:45 < kanzure> yeah, a lot of people think patent law is rather pure
14:45 < kanzure> untouchably righteous etc
14:48 < FourFire> seba-, I'm not sure it was especially innovative, it was just a heat resistant material, but the point is that people still do that thing keeping knowledeg to themselves and then losing it from the doman of human knowledge once they die
14:48 < seba-> what
14:48 < seba-> that gives me some satellite station FourFire
14:48 < FourFire> yeah, never mind
14:48 < seba-> some radio
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14:49 < FourFire> sorry  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlite
14:50 < seba-> interesting
14:50 < seba-> but that's an anomaly
14:50 < seba-> it was much more common before patents
14:51 < FourFire> yeah I magine
14:55 < kanzure> uh, you can still make inventions known without resorting to patents, or keeping it secret
14:55 < kanzure> ugh
14:59 < seba-> yes
14:59 < seba-> you can
15:00 < seba-> you just can't profit from them usually
15:02 < kanzure> uh, you're allowed to
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15:36 < kanzure> "If you have a good transcript, you can temporarily upload the video to YouTube (mark it as private if you like, it only needs to be accessible to you) - then in the "Captions and Subtitles" options, upload the plain text transcript. YouTube will sync the transcript to the audio, (removing the ambiguity of it having to guess what is being said, as you're telling it that - so now it knows what words it's listening out for) and you can download ...
15:36 < kanzure> ... the resulting automatically timed file as an SBV or SRT type file."
15:45 < jrayhawk_> huh, i am surprised there isn't an open source implementation of such a system
15:46 < jrayhawk_> maybe there are, like, six of them, all hidden away in doctoral theses somewhere
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16:00 < kanzure> "there is no evidence that Leibniz was ever granted a patent of nobility" oh right, patents were for nobility
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16:30 < dpk> you may be confusing patents with letters patent
16:31 < dpk> wait, no you're mot
16:31 < dpk> *not
16:31 < dpk> that's the opposite of what you're doing
16:31 < dpk> carry on
16:32 < kanzure> your diligence is duly noted
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16:37 < seba-> what
16:37 < seba-> why are we even talking about patents
16:37 < seba-> in the first place
16:38 < seba-> kanzure, anyway my incubator worked well enough to grow lactobacillus
16:38 < seba-> which was the control
16:38 < seba-> the probiotic solution for cats had zero colonies haha
16:38 < seba-> which was the point of the test
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17:01 < kanzure> huh i forgot about this user http://mjr.iki.fi/
17:01 < kanzure> "Rentoutuakseni artikkelien lukemiseen ja kirjoittamiseen painottuvasta työstä tutkijakoulutettavana teen vapaamuotoista sukututkimusta ja luen hyvin sekalaista kirjallisuutta."
17:02 < kanzure> alright that can't possibly be a language
17:03 < seba-> why not
17:03 < seba-> aaaaa
17:04 < kanzure> because it would be too inconvenient
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17:33 < kanzure> http://libswift.org/ is an interesting complement to http://serfdom.io/
17:34 < kanzure> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/~asdas/research/dsn02-swim.pdf
17:34 < kanzure> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/rvr/papers/flowgossip.pdf
17:36 < justanotheruser> kanzure: know anything about Kademlia?
17:37 < kanzure> .wik kademlia
17:37 < yoleaux> "Kademlia is a distributed hash table for decentralized peer-to-peer computer networks designed by Petar Maymounkov and David Mazières in 2002. It specifies the structure of the network and the exchange of information through node lookups. Kademlia nodes communicate among themselves using UDP." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kademlia
17:37 < kanzure> nope
17:38 < kanzure> justanotheruser: it's funny seeing clock's questions about bitcoin. i thought he knew these things.
17:38 < justanotheruser> kanzure: have you talked to him before or something?
17:39 < kanzure> he was in here a few days ago
17:39 < kanzure> he's well known for ronja and other reasons
17:39 < kanzure> http://ronja.twibright.com/ "Ronja is a free technology project for reliable optical data links with a current range of 1.4km and a communication speed of 10Mbps full duplex."
17:39 < kanzure> "Ronja (Reasonable Optical Near Joint Access) is an User Controlled Technology (like Free Software) project of optical point-to-point data link. The device has 1.4km range and has stable 10Mbps full duplex data rate. Ronja is an optoelectronic device you can mount on your house and connect your PC, home or office network with other networks. Or you can use it as a general purpose wireless link for building any other networking project."
17:43 < seba-> hm
17:43 < seba-> http://lea.hamradio.si/~s53mv/
17:43 < seba-> nbp
17:43 < kanzure> .title
17:43 < yoleaux> Matjaz S53MV (lea.hamradio.si)
17:43 < seba-> wireless link 10 mbit theoretical
17:43 < seba-> they have it
17:43 < seba-> over 80 km
17:43 < seba-> works nicely
17:43 < seba-> :D
17:43 < seba-> also you have gps/glonass from discretes
17:43 < seba-> lots of avionics
17:44 < seba-> etc.
17:44 < justanotheruser> kanzure: so.. high speed wireless communication?
17:44 < kanzure> justanotheruser: open source hardware stuff
17:46 < kanzure> hmm http://lea.hamradio.si/~s53mv/zifssb/block.html
17:46 < kanzure> .title
17:46 < yoleaux> Design of zero-IF SSB transceivers
17:46 < justanotheruser> hmm
17:47 < seba-> they've made a network here
17:47 < seba-> works nice
17:47 < seba-> you can get internet for free
17:47 < seba-> if you care to build the hw
17:48 < kanzure> "A third book on amateur satellite activities is certainly missing. There are several reasons. The most important is the total failure of the AMSAT-P3D satellite due to several independent design flaws. Free access to analog and/or digital weather-satellite images is no longer available: except for the NOAA polar orbiters, data from all other weather satellites is now being encrypted. Professional satellite point-to-point links and broadcast ...
17:48 < kanzure> ... are being replaced by optical fiber. The only remaining satellites with free access seem to be the GPS and GLONASS navigation satellites."
17:48 < kanzure> http://lea.hamradio.si/~s53mv/archive/archive.html
17:48 < kanzure> "Weather-satellite image scan converter, TV monitor output, 128x128 resolution" http://lea.hamradio.si/~s53mv/archive/a031.pdf
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17:53 < kanzure> electronic antennae beam steering for amateur satellite attitude stabilization http://lea.hamradio.si/~s53mv/archive/p082.pdf
17:53 < gene_hacker> it may not be broadcast over an unencrypted downlink, but it's interesting nonetheless: http://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/HDEV/
17:54 < kanzure> "A rather simple solution for amateur satellites with global (hemispherical) coverage in a high Earth orbit is a retrodirective transponder. A retrodirective transponder uses similar antenna arrays for signal reception and transmission. The individual transponders are operated coherently with the same local oscillator and are connected to the antenna arrays so that the signal is transmitted back exactly in the same direction from where it came."
17:56 < gene_hacker> sadly this didn't work: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zacinaction/kicksat-your-personal-spacecraft-in-space/posts/843807
17:56 < kanzure> was that the one that blew up recently
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17:57 < kanzure> maybe that was cubesat.. hm.
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18:05 < kanzure> gene_hacker: cheap home semiconductor fabrication links please? i'm not sure cmos is the cheapest, and a lot of the organic transistor stuff is flimsy..
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18:17 < nmz787> got kicad to compile on windows with minimal messing around (though I had to do a little)
18:22 < gene_hacker> oh that's easy, just live in space and work outside
18:23 < kanzure> huh
18:25 < gradstudentbot> His lab is so awkward.
18:27 < kanzure> .title http://cmosfold.blogspot.com/2012/04/xilinx-xc4413.html
18:27 < yoleaux> CMOSfold: Xilinx XC4413
18:27 < kanzure> "This is a mask programmed version of the XC4013/E FPGA.  I didn't realize Xilinx had ever made mask programmable FPGAs.  Maybe popular for reducing cost by removing the external flash or increased reliability for aero/mil/medical. "
18:28 < kanzure> nice blog
18:28 < kanzure> also, http://siliconpr0n.org/archive/doku.php?id=true_mask_art
18:28 < kanzure> dogbert? http://siliconpr0n.org/archive/doku.php?id=azonenberg:myricom:xbar
18:28 < kanzure> ah it even says so. confirmed dogbert.
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18:35 < kanzure> 17:52 < azonenberg> A paper from SDSU demonstrates a UV direct write laser lithography system for under $1K
18:35 < kanzure> 17:52 < azonenberg> with better than 5um resolution across a large area
18:35 < kanzure> 17:55 < azonenberg> That paper quoted 2um "easily"
18:36 < jrayhawk_> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ci0KqN3i94k/TZQNJq5eLLI/AAAAAAAAAIg/8RttMD0yYlA/s640/110331_Demons_of_Stupidity_800x1022_FULL.JPG
18:36 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPlLp1OHiio
18:36 < yoleaux> Maskless photolithography by holographic projection
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18:49 < kanzure> hm i can't actually find that paper
18:49 < kanzure> there's a one-page pdf file on diyhpl.us but i'm not convinced that's the content azonenberg was referring to
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18:51 < kanzure> is this just a one page file? http://ma.ecsdl.org/content/MA2012-02/59/3990.abstract
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18:52 < kanzure> ah: "Meeting Abstracts, 3990-3990" damn
18:56 < kanzure> "Jeri Ellsworth has a FEOL process for doing transistors working at macro-scale without lithography. If you can do direct-write exposure, you can buy standard photoresist and developer solutions and do lithography. Jeri's stuff used conductive epoxy and regular fine-gauge hookup wire."
18:57 < kanzure> "Deep UV photoresists are not sold to the general public. 193nm is the standard wavelength for most mass production afaik. You can buy them if you're Intel, by the 55 gallon drum."
18:58 < kanzure> "Thats the main problem with direct laser. Availability of the resist. Shipley 1813 can be bought by the quart from fisher scientific for $372 for example. Then you can get HMDS from SPI supplies for $12 for 30ml or $15 for 100ml but the larger volume needs hazmat shipping. injectorall.com sells photoresist in small volumes intended for PCBs"
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19:00 < kanzure> does anyone remember what azonenberg's hold up was
19:00 < kanzure> did he graduate and then lose interest?
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19:01 < kanzure> 12:14 < azonenberg> I've been away from this project for a while due to lack of time and funding
19:01 < kanzure> 12:14 < azonenberg> once i have a real job and am out of grad school i plan to get back to it
19:01 < kanzure> aha
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19:01 < ParahSailin> is omni the main treadmill startup for vr?
19:04 < kanzure> hm, "microfluidics vs mesofluidics" is the same thing as "make a maskless photography setup for electronics vs just use lots of breadboards and commodity electronics"
19:05 < kanzure> although microfluidics is way messier and prone to failure, i think
19:07 < gene_hacker> commodity electronics are really cheap
19:08 < kanzure> gene_hacker: i pulled back from doing dna synthesis via microfluidics because it multiplies the number of variables that can go wrong and require tweaking (means more prototyping etc), compared to conventional dna synthesizers
19:09 < kanzure> since it's already a 12-step chemical formula adding all sorts of other unknown-reliability components is detrimental to getting something that works
19:09 < kanzure> (12 steps that require tweaking, yield management, etc)
19:10 < gene_hacker> isn't venter doing the same?
19:10 < kanzure> specifically?
19:10 < gene_hacker> using rooms full of old dna synthesizers to make artifical chromosomes?
19:11 < kanzure> oh, probably
19:11 < kanzure> maybe he ordered the dna from a company though
19:11 < kanzure> and they have the rooms of machines
19:11 < ParahSailin> some guy made a yeast chromosome using rooms full of undergrads
19:11 < gene_hacker> which is why he hasn't made synthia yet
19:12 < ParahSailin> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/344/6179/55
19:12 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1249252
19:12 < gene_hacker> so what about that photogenerated acid microfluidics approach?
19:13 < kanzure> link?
19:13 < gene_hacker> you don't use complicated valving, all you need is a specially shaped microfluidics chip you hook up to a regular DNA synthesizer
19:13 < gene_hacker> I'm sure you have it somewhere
19:14 < gene_hacker> and something to produce structured UV light
19:14 < kanzure> this is not ringing a bell. so you wire up the microfluidic chip to a conventional synthesizer? for what
19:14 < gene_hacker> pumping stuff through the chip
19:15 < kanzure> i think there was one that was continuous flow
19:15 < gene_hacker> http://www.lcsciences.com/wp-content/uploads/picoarray.png
19:15 < gene_hacker> this guy
19:16 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Synthesis%20-%20Microfluidic%20PicoArray%20synthesis%20of%20oligodeoxynucleotides%20and%20simultaneous%20assembling%20of%20multiple%20DNA%20sequences%20(10%20kb).pdf
19:18 < gene_hacker> from what I understand it doesn't require that much reagents
19:18 < kanzure> hmm well you're right this doesn't use valves
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19:19 < kanzure> 30mers.. huh.
19:19 < kanzure> this is not as bad as i remember it
19:20 < kanzure> so why was it hooked up to that expedite 8909 dna synthesizer
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19:23 < kanzure> "The synthesis process was carried out on a regular DNA synthesizer that is equipped with a programmable digital light projector as described previously (17, 20, 21). The PicoArray microfluidic device was connected to the synthesizer in the same way as a regular synthesis column and the synthesis was similar to the process that was described previously (17)."
19:24 < kanzure> hey i was published in this journal once. cool.
19:26 < kanzure> i don't get it. what's the machine for?
19:28 < gene_hacker> pumping stuff through the chip
19:33 < kanzure> then why not just use a syringe pump?
19:33 < kanzure> expedite 8909 manual http://tools.lifetechnologies.com/content/sfs/manuals/cms_041567.pdf
19:34 < nmz787> presumably for metering and sequencing the reagents
19:35 < kanzure> ""Each reagent is delivered as fixed volume pulses by individual fluid injectors. Therefore, consistent reagent volumes are delivered to the reaction columns. This enables accurate monitoring of reagent usage without calibrating the flow rates for each reagent. There are two valve trains (see Figure 1-3) that deliver reagents to the reaction columns. • The A-train delivers the deblocking, washing, capping and oxidation reagents. • The ...
19:35 < kanzure> ... B-train delivers the activation and coupling reagents."
19:35 < kanzure> got it
19:35 < kanzure> so, lazy
19:36 < kanzure> i wonder if the volume is user-selectable
19:38 < gene_hacker> yup
19:39 < kanzure> "Pulse volume: 15.5 microliters +- 20%"
19:39 < nmz787> that's huge
19:39 < nmz787> in terms of what's needed for genes/operons
19:40 < kanzure> so they were flowing 15.5 microliters through this microfluidic device? i wonder whta pressure
19:40 < kanzure> *what
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19:48 < kanzure> well anyway, avoiding valves is a good idea
19:48 < kanzure> it significantly simplifies the device
19:50 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valvetrain
19:52 < kanzure> hmm https://www.google.com/search?q=valve+train&num=100&safe=off&tbm=isch&tbo=u
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20:04 < gene_hacker> a 60 Hz DNA synthesizer?
20:06 < kanzure> also, it's interesting to note that a good maskless photolithography system can probably be reused for dna synthesis, microfluidics, and microelectronics
20:06 < gene_hacker> and 3d printing!
20:07 < kanzure> very tiny 3d printing perhaps
20:07 < kanzure> well, larger too, maybe you just remove a lense or something?
20:07 < gene_hacker> well if you have a system that can put out a lot of structured UV light, you can make precision investment casting molds
20:08 < gene_hacker> of course, if you want them to be any good you can't use STL
20:08 < kanzure> what's the advantage of any of the bluray led systems compared to the micromirror array approach
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20:16 < gene_hacker> ???
20:17 < kanzure> we were thinking of building an xy stage with bluray led- http://diyhpl.us/laser_etcher/laser_etcher/
20:17 < gene_hacker> bluray laser diodes scan slower
20:17 < gene_hacker> plus, you can
20:17 < gene_hacker> 't get as deep into the UV spectrum with them
20:17 < kanzure> i just don't remember why we weren't focusing on dmd though
20:18 < gene_hacker> You have to extensively modify a projector
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20:19 < kanzure> oh right, it was going to be used for cutting
20:19 < gene_hacker> or get a DMD devkit from TI
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20:25 < kanzure> well you can also cut out microelectronic circuits too. so you lose out on dna synthesis and throughput/parallelism
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21:01 < kanzure> oh hm "The first integrated circuits had features of 200 micrometres which were printed using contact lithography. This technique was popular in the 1960s until it was substituted by proximity printing, where a gap is introduced between the photomask and the substrate. Proximity printing had poorer resolution than contact printing (due to the gap allowing more diffraction to occur) but generated far less defects. The resolution was sufficient ...
21:01 < kanzure> ... for down to 2 micrometre production. In 1978, the step-and-repeat projection system appeared. [1] The platform gained wide acceptance due to the reduction of the mask image and is still in use today."
21:03 < kanzure> "The chief advantage of contact lithography is the elimination of the need for complex projection optics between object and image. The resolution limit in today's projection optical systems originates from the finite size of the final imaging lens and its distance from the image plane. More specifically, the projection optics can only capture a limited spatial frequency spectrum from the object (photomask). Contact printing has no such ...
21:03 < kanzure> ... resolution limit but is sensitive to the presence of defects on the mask or on the substrate."
21:03 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_lithography
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21:09 < kanzure> huh, moore's law was originally 12 months
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21:40 < kanzure> "Thermopneumatic microvalve: control liquid in a sealed cavity is expanded by thermal power of resistive heaters. Temperature and actuation force can be specified by appropriate choice of the control liquid."
21:41 < kanzure> "Performance of reswood microvalve: .... flow rate 50 ml/min water @ 20 psi, supply presure <40 psi, response time ~ 1000 ms, power consumption ~ 1 W, acceptable chemicals: aceton, octane, methanol, HCL, NaOH"
21:42 < kanzure> oh.. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Review%20-%20Microvalves.pdf
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22:51 < kanzure> "Part of the high cost of mobile delivery of last mile services is the requirement for this heavy infrastructure to service a small number of people."
22:51 < kanzure> is this another case of people thinking you need to pay $200,000 for some shitty "capital" equipment
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22:55 < nmz787> openspectrometer 0.1 on oshpark is $99 for 3 boards
22:56 < nmz787> i need to work on it some more, but i think I can probably get the sq inches down to about 80 or 90% of that
22:56 < nmz787> so a little cheaper
22:59 < kanzure> it's too bad that a lot of our stuff is optics limited
22:59 < kanzure> i don't want to be grinding lenses for the rest of my life, fuck that?
23:03 < kanzure> actually i haven't seen many alternatives to glass lenses
23:03 < kanzure> besides vague metamaterial things
23:03 < kanzure> oh yeah and fluidic lenses
23:04 < nmz787> diffractive optics
23:04 < nmz787> mirrors
23:04 < gene_hacker> IEEE gets it:
23:04 < gene_hacker> http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/space-flight/robots-will-pave-the-way-to-mars
23:05 < gene_hacker> pinhole lenses
23:05 < gene_hacker> that weird diffraction pattern lense thing
23:08 < gene_hacker> an aerosol floating in space: http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/Quadrelli_2012_PhI_OrbitingRainbows_.pdf
23:08 < gene_hacker> ^but that's really just for imaging and not image forming
23:09 < kanzure> well i'm also thinking of scenarios like: microscopy, routing laser beams around, optical holography, optical tweezer stuff, etc
23:10 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thin-film_optics
23:12 < kanzure> maybe dendrimers
23:14 < gene_hacker> Well for most of that I think you need a spatial light modulator
23:14 < gene_hacker> which you probably have in front of you
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23:15 < gene_hacker> it's basically just a glorified see through LCD screen
23:16 < kanzure> is that enough for magnification and projection
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23:17 < gene_hacker> no, you still need some fancy glass optics
23:17 < gene_hacker> but it's what you need for holography and optical tweezers
23:18 < kanzure> "Fabrication of continuous-relief micro-optical elements by direct laser writing in photoresists"
23:18 < kanzure> "A laser writing system for the fabrication of continuous-relief micro-optical elements in photoresist is described. The technology enables a wide range of planar micro-optical elements to be fabricated and replicated into polymer film using Ni shims electroformed from the photo-resist originals. The advantages and limitations of laser writing technology for micro-optics fabrication are discussed. Examples of fabricated micro-optical elements ...
23:18 < gene_hacker> for magnification, you can probably get a microscope off ebay
23:18 < kanzure> ... include Fresnel microlenses and microlens arrays, kinoforms, and other continuous-relief phase elements."
23:18 < kanzure> paperbot: http://spie.org/Publications/Journal/10.1117/12.179892
23:18 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/fca8eabbc88fb16dbdf2960c1a4df67.txt
23:18 < kanzure> planar micro-optics sounds nice
23:19 < gradstudentbot> Friends don't let friends go to super school.
23:19 < gene_hacker> microlenses are fucking cool
23:20 < gene_hacker> They're what you need to make augmented reality contacts
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23:33 < kanzure> "A recent prior work (2007) demonstrated that a quasi-periodic array of nanoholes, in a metal screen, were able to focus the optical energy of a plane wave to form subwavelength spots (hot spots). The distances for the spots was a few tens of wavelengths on the other side of the array, or, in other words, opposite the side of the incident plane wave. The quasi-periodic array of nanoholes functioned as a light concentrator.[54]"
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23:41 < kanzure> "Direct write of optical diffractive elements and planar waveguides with a digital micromirror device based UV photoplotter"
23:42 < kanzure> http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00339-010-6054-9 "This work describes how the size and shape of an incident laser beam can be dynamically controlled in real time with the use of a digital micromirror device (DMD), resulting in laser-printed functional nanomaterials with geometries identical to those of the projected beam."
23:42 < kanzure> paperbot:
23:42 < kanzure> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00339-010-6054-9
23:42 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Laser%20forward%20transfer%20based%20on%20a%20spatial%20light%20modulator.pdf
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23:47 < kanzure> oh i guess that makes sense "X-ray holographic microscopy using photoresists", http://xrm.phys.northwestern.edu/research/pdf_papers/1990/jacobsen_josa_1990.pdf
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23:54 < delinquentme> learning about major histocompatibility complex
23:54 < delinquentme> woooooo
--- Log closed Mon Jun 02 00:00:08 2014