--- Log opened Tue Jun 17 00:00:37 2014
00:00 < AshleyWaffle> ebowden: yeah but whats the best one to tackle first
00:01 < ebowden> Don't know.
00:01 < AshleyWaffle> well my idea is
00:01 < AshleyWaffle> combining lucid dreaming or daydreaming with this
00:01 < ebowden> This is likely one of those things that gets better as advancements accumulate.
00:02 < AshleyWaffle> you could make media of any sort
00:02 < ebowden> There's probably not a magic research bullet.
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00:02 < AshleyWaffle> or do a video in the style of video game lets plays
00:02 < AshleyWaffle> hey augur
00:03 < Daeken> kanzure: pong
00:09 < archels> AshleyWaffle: mostly, recording resolution
00:10 < archels> but before you do any of these experiments you have to learn the mapping, which means exposing the subject to countless images and simultaneous measuring their brain activity
00:12 < AshleyWaffle> yep
00:12 < AshleyWaffle> how practical would this be to diy
00:12 < AshleyWaffle> with a budget of, for example, $1k
00:13 < archels> uh, I'm not sure what refurbished MRI scanners go for, but I'm willing to bet it's a little over $1k
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00:15 < AshleyWaffle> archels: and the resolution would be?
00:15 < AshleyWaffle> probably not full resolution 1080p of your dreams, heh
00:16 < archels> oh, when you say 'resolution' do you refer to the resolution of the reconstructed 'dream images'?
00:20 < AshleyWaffle> archels: the accuracy and precision of the reconstruction anyway
00:20 < AshleyWaffle> with an ideal scenario looking as if watching a movie or recording of real life
00:20 < AshleyWaffle> and minimum effectiveness for satisfying me if i were a consumer would be easy to make out whats going on
00:20 < AshleyWaffle> but shitty quality and odd distortions
00:21 < archels> the reconstruction is just a weighted sum of the individual images that were presented during the establishment of the map, so they could be 4k or whatever
00:22 < archels> the prettiness of the reconstruction is limited by how many images were used to esablish time map, which I guess is mostly a time/practicality constraint, but most importantly the resolution of the brain scan (fMRI voxel size)
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04:16 < Stevko> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v476/n7361/abs/476393a.html
04:16 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2F476393a
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06:19 < eudoxia> 23:12 < kanzure> when i was thinking about refactoring it, i was thinking of leaving the GUI behind
06:19 < eudoxia> 23:12 < kanzure> and just doing a small programming tool
06:19 < eudoxia> kanzure: how would that actually work though? NE-1 lets you do things like create big blocks of uniform diamond
06:20 < eudoxia> then with the GUI would can, say, place a Ge dimer on the center of one of the faces. how would you do that with some kind of chemistry DSL?
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07:06 < eudoxia> s/would can/you can
07:07 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, but his project was so easy.
07:13 < chris_99> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-94-007-5170-5_14
07:14 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/399ab308bed84d4c8e5fb731fb2d8d4d.txt
07:33 < kanzure> well, you would just pick which atom you want
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07:34 < kanzure> i bet you can't really pick the center unless it's an odd number
07:34 < kanzure> or you can split at half-way i guess
07:36 < eudoxia> i guess something like atoms.select(x=max, y=height/2, z=depth/2) or something but that could get really complex and not at all accurate
07:38 < kanzure> well, programmatic macro-cad works, why not atomcad?
07:39 < eudoxia> because it's simple as long as you're either creating all the atoms manually (or through explicit iteration or something) or creating chunks of atoms in bulk, but mixing the too seems like a hard problem
07:39 < kanzure> shrug
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07:40 < kanzure> it sounds like gene_hacker finds it more useful for the pointyclicky reasons
07:40 < eudoxia> that's why it should have a GUI
07:40 < gradstudentbot> My pub of choice is pubmed.
07:40 < eudoxia> but, as you said, even the internal representation of molecules is done by another library, so it might just be easier to rewrite the whole thing
07:41 < kanzure> internal representation of molecules is nanoengineer
07:41 < eudoxia> i thought it was openbabel
07:41 < kanzure> haha no
07:41 < eudoxia> i'm pretty sure it's designed to do that and since NE-1 uses it
07:41 < kanzure> pffffft standardization
07:44 < eudoxia> well whatever, there's ChemPy https://github.com/jwallen/ChemPy
07:46 < kanzure> that looks way more clean
07:58 < kanzure> eudoxia, does that do the things adequately?
08:00 < eudoxia> kanzure: i have not used it, but it seems adequately tested
08:01 < kanzure> well, go use it, you slacker
08:01 < kanzure> try converting some stuff from https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/tree/master/cad/partlib
08:02 < eudoxia> is there some not-mmp format that allows representing stuff like rotary and linear motors
08:02 < eudoxia> sparsely documented project-specific formats are not a good thing
08:02 < kanzure> pdb? heh dunno
08:03 < eudoxia> i know pdb has a boatload of extra features but it's more oriented towards protein stuff
08:03 < gradstudentbot> Protip: I wouldn't go to the far end of the lab alone.
08:03 < kanzure> is there seriously no molecule file format
08:03 < kanzure> HULK SMASH
08:05 < eudoxia> the pdb format has an entire section of records for classifying different parts of the molecule but no "this moves back and forth every 200 femtosecond"
08:06 < eudoxia> femtoseconds*
08:06 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhQDxralP70
08:06 < yoleaux> Syringe pump first Testrun
08:07 < gradstudentbot> Hey, I got 100% yield! Oh wait, no.
08:09 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OtR9y1TYoXc
08:09 < yoleaux> PDMS plasma surface treatment in improvised plasma chamber
08:10 < kanzure> syringe pump in action https://plus.google.com/photos/109143331381566436146/albums/6022970869991461601/6022970870156503138?pid=6022970870156503138&oid=109143331381566436146
08:11 < kanzure> oh i guess this is the thing cathal garvey is paying for (synbioaxlr8r)
08:12 < kanzure> "Just wanted to invite you to following along the development of our recent project, which is a dna synthesizer named KiloBaser. It's based on microfluidic and magnetic technology, open source and low cost. There are still challenges to overcome, but we are quite convinced to have a basic prototype soon. Our team started at the biohackerspace 'open biolab graz austria', currently working in Ireland for the summer."
08:12 < kanzure> by "open source" they mean "we fuck you in the ass by making bryan click facebook/twitter links"
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08:18 < kanzure> joepie91_: pdfstuff?
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08:44 < joepie91_> ffs
08:44 < joepie91_> washed cheese grater a little too aggressively
08:44 < joepie91_> it bit back >.>
08:44 < joepie91_> kanzure: likely pdfstuffhappen this weekend
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09:35 < kanzure> hm
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10:07 < FourFire> kanzure, what's your opinion on Aubrey De Grey ?
10:07 < FourFire> He's doing an AMA in an hour
10:08 < kanzure> he spends too much time on marketing, otherwise good opinion
10:09 < kanzure> i suggest you read al of these in the next hour: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/
10:09 < kanzure> and some of his: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/Aubrey/
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10:19 < ParahSailin> hes always drunk
10:20 < kanzure> which is not necessarily a bad thing
10:22 < justanotheruser> kanzure: have you even read all of those? O_o
10:23 < kanzure> there's only 382 papers in there
10:27 < nmz787_i> kanzure: i don't think i saw his email in your reply
10:27 < kanzure> it was through ebay
10:49 < FourFire> kanzure, well I'm hoping to ask some leading questions As soon as the AMA gets posted
10:50 < chris_99> is it on reddit?
10:50 < ParahSailin> no reddit
10:50 < chris_99> AMA is a reddit thing mainly, right?
10:50 < eudoxia> we never get any cool AMAs
10:52 < kanzure> why would you ask leading questions ugh
10:52 < FourFire> chris_99, yeah it's supposed to be on /r/futurology, in about an hour
10:53 < chris_99> cool
10:53 < FourFire> (I glooped on the time)
10:53 < chris_99> Does Aubrey work at Cambridge?
10:54 < kanzure> aubrey lives on the road giving presentations
10:54 < chris_99> heh
10:54 < FourFire> kanzure, maybe that's the most effective thing he can do
10:55 < eudoxia> well you know at least he's convincing people death = bad
10:55 < eudoxia> ==*
10:55 < kanzure> that's a rather pathetic limit to place on yourself
10:55 < kanzure> consider he did okay theory work on aging in the past
10:55 < kanzure> not the greatest, but not shit either
10:55 < eudoxia> there are still too many deathists in the world
10:55 < FourFire> towards actually getting enough people in the know and serious about solving things
10:55 < eudoxia> yes i hate using that word
10:55 < FourFire> I'm going to ask him about that actually
10:56 < kanzure> "let's just get enough attention and hope that at some point we stumble into someone that knows the answers" is a *bad* stratey
10:56 < kanzure> *bad strategy
10:56 < FourFire> kanzure, well the field is rather underfunded compared to, say baldness
10:56 < kanzure> who cares? aubrey's rich as fuck
10:56 < kanzure> well, not as fuck
10:56 < kanzure> at least $10 million
10:57 < FourFire> it's about brute forcing the problems too, not just "finding someone who knows the answer" or whatever
10:57 < kanzure> actually, a lot of options are often taken off the table because they seem too strange
10:57 < ParahSailin> aubrey doesnt live at cambridge afaik
10:58 < FourFire> we need a bunch of intelligent scientists working on systematically producing solutions to these interconnected systematic failure modes
10:58 < kanzure> for example, people are willing to cryogenically preserve their heads but they aren't willing to do whole body transplants or brain-only life support
10:58 < eudoxia> most people aren't willing to do that
10:58 < FourFire> well brain life support seems like death
10:58 < FourFire> sensory deprivation and that
10:58 < eudoxia> lol whut
10:58 < kanzure> whether or not you need help it is still insulting to say "maybe conference presentations are the best he can do"- considering he has given evidence that he is capable of doing other work
10:58 < FourFire> whole body transplants is very morally D:
10:59 < eudoxia> how is it morally anything
10:59 < FourFire> but people willing to cryo are a tiny minority
10:59 < kanzure> why are you always so broken
10:59 < kanzure> like what the hell happened to you
11:00 < kanzure> i used to think it was all the stupid parts of lesswrong leaking into you, but now i'm not sure
11:00 < FourFire> kanzure, my intellectual deficiencies aside, it's not just underfunded, it's probably also under appreciated: people donæt know it's a thing
11:00 < kanzure> i am not claiming deficiencies
11:01 < FourFire> what did I say?
11:01 < kanzure> "my intellectual deficiencies aside,"
11:01 < FourFire> for a whole body transplant someone has to die for each person that lives, right?
11:01 < seba-> yes
11:01 < seba-> but you can just make 7 clones of you
11:02 < FourFire> and brains suffer disease too
11:02 < seba-> and harvest their organs
11:02 < chris_99> ParahSailin, ah i was wondering if he gave any lectures i could frop into
11:02 < chris_99> *drop even
11:02 < kanzure> seba-: unfortunately those clones are too young to matter, often
11:02 < kanzure> i think i already corrected myself and said brain-only support
11:02 < FourFire> clones is a good point, but again we get into the moral ickyness because people are stupid about these things
11:02 < seba-> kanzure, yeah but you grow them in advance
11:02 < kanzure> iirc there's a term that sounds like "whole-body transplant" but is related to whole head removal
11:02 < kanzure> it's the one where you don't kill a second person, and where you can't use the original body
11:02 < kanzure> except for the head
11:03 < FourFire> you mean like the russian robot dog experiments?
11:03 < kanzure> no
11:03 < kanzure> just normal brain in a jar stuff
11:03 < kanzure> with perfusion
11:04 < eudoxia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_transplant "The consensus on the ethics of such a procedure is negative."
11:04 < eudoxia> ahahahah bioethics would be such a fucking joke if it wasn't so dangerous
11:04 < seba-> FourFire could you try applying 30 V at certain parts of your body and see if you shit yourself?
11:04 < seba-> i mean i would show you which points
11:04 < seba-> as per patent
11:04 < chris_99> is that your new fetish seba- ;)
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11:05 < seba-> chris_99, http://www.google.com/patents/US3941136
11:05 < chris_99> i daren't not look heh
11:08 < gradstudentbot> Is this going to count as my ethics training?
11:08 < kanzure> "I have a quite a bit of experience with organic synthesis, especially the synthesis of complex polyketide type natural products, feel free to ask me any questions."
11:12 < joepie91_> kanzure: do you have a paper handy with an image watermark? I think I just figured out how to do the architecture of pdfparanoia, but I want to check to be sure that it also catches that usecase
11:12 < joepie91_> (preferably two papers with an image watermark from the same source)
11:12 < joepie91_> all the papers on the bugtracker seem to be text, unless I missed one
11:12 < kanzure> there are samples in the tests folder
11:13 < kanzure> i think IOP uses some images on the first page
11:13  * joepie91_ goescheck
11:13 < kanzure> "institute of physics"
11:14 < joepie91_> per https://github.com/kanzure/pdfparanoia/issues/3 that seems to be text
11:14 < joepie91_> not image :/
11:14 < kanzure> looking
11:15 < kanzure> nmz787_i: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/abi391/
11:15 < joepie91_> kanzure: also, the AIP test paper has an advertisement - should it strip that also, or just explicit watermarks?
11:15 < kanzure> that is a good question
11:16 < joepie91_> it depends on whether you want the PDFs to be "cleaned" or just "anonymized"
11:16 < joepie91_> I suppose
11:16 < kanzure> well, it's certainly the same *type* of operation
11:16 < kanzure> it should be stripped, because they might have a record of which ads were shown on which papers
11:16 < kanzure> for which users that downloadecd
11:17 < joepie91_> also, none of those in tests/ appear to employ image watermarks
11:17 < joepie91_> right, that was a side-thought of mine as well
11:17 < joepie91_> I'll go with "yes, should be stripped" then :P
11:17 < kanzure> i believe i saw an image watermark once, but it was just a 180x20 pixel thing, in the same location on every page
11:17 < kanzure> i just don't remember which publisher :(
11:17 < joepie91_> was it unique?
11:17 < joepie91_> or just a logo kind of thing?
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11:17 < kanzure> had a variable piece of information
11:17 < joepie91_> ah
11:17 < kanzure> it was either institution name, date, or ip address
11:17 < joepie91_> if you run across it, can you link me to it?
11:18 < kanzure> yep
11:20 < kanzure> "notice of extortion" https://i.imgur.com/cG07rQU.jpg
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11:30 < kanzure> ParahSailin: we should probably start making a list of primers worth synthesizing
11:30 < ParahSailin> what
11:31 < kanzure> because we have a synthesizer now
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11:32 < ParahSailin> who has a synthesizer
11:32 < kanzure> i bought it last night, shipping it to nmz787
11:32 < ParahSailin> ah which
11:32 < kanzure> ABI 391
11:33 < ParahSailin> why wouldnt i order from idt
11:33 < kanzure> shrug, you're free to
11:33 < ParahSailin> is marginal cost cheaper with yours?
11:34 < kanzure> haven't calculated yet
11:35 < ParahSailin> why you sent it to him and not me?
11:35 < kanzure> because i'm a fucking idiot
11:37 < kanzure> pick one out and i'll get it
11:37 < seba-> why TLC is not used much in biochem?
11:37 < ParahSailin> what you mean that paper thing?
11:37 < seba-> no
11:37 < ParahSailin> er, the plates i mean
11:37 < seba-> thin layer chromatography
11:37 < seba-> plates yes
11:38 < ParahSailin> because electrophoresis
11:38 < seba-> yes sure
11:38 < seba-> but TLC is faster
11:38 < seba-> and more convinient
11:38 < ParahSailin> i have never heard of tlc for large molecules
11:38 < ParahSailin> fuck, and convenient is not a word i would associate with tlc
11:39 < seba-> why not
11:39 < ParahSailin> fucking scoring plates and the huge glass box full of chloroform in the hood
11:39 < seba-> huh?
11:39 < seba-> what?
11:39 < seba-> lol
11:39 < ParahSailin> tlc yo
11:39 < seba-> why do you need chloroform
11:39 < seba-> most plates or aluminum nowdays
11:39 < ParahSailin> you always need some crazy mixture of solvents
11:40 < ParahSailin> and you need to try like 10 different ones to see which gets you the best separation
11:40 < seba-> chloroform is not used much, except in biochem protocols
11:41 < seba-> well column chromatography it's used
11:41 < ParahSailin> er...
11:41 < ParahSailin> yeah
11:41 < seba-> and also a lot of chromatography using centrifuge in various kits
11:41 < seba-> i just can't see why not TLC
11:41 < ParahSailin> i have never heard of tlc for large molecules
11:42 < ParahSailin> do you know how the equations for diffusion go?
11:42 < seba-> yes me neither, but i don't see why it wouldn't work
11:42 < seba-> at least for proteins and such
11:43 < seba-> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bmc.1130030302/abstract
11:43 < seba-> hm
11:44 < gene_hacker> excellent
11:44 < gene_hacker> we have a synth now?
11:44 < ParahSailin> what part of slurrying cellulose powder in methanol-water and spread over glass plates and dried in vacuo overnight is "super faster and convenient"
11:44 < seba-> ParahSailin you can buy those premade
11:45 < seba-> they don't cost much
11:45 < ParahSailin> lol ill stick to gels
11:45 < seba-> yes but why
11:45 < ParahSailin> the red dye makes it go fasta
11:46 < seba-> i must experiment a bit with TLC and proteins, i think it could be good hm
11:47 < kanzure> gene_hacker: yes
11:47 < ParahSailin> fuck, i hate everything about TLC, you should have given me a trigger warning
11:47 < seba-> ParahSailin why
11:47 < ParahSailin> now i am re-living my worst days
11:47 < seba-> what's so wrong about TLC
11:47 < seba-> i don't get it
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11:53 < FourFire> kanzure, I might have missed it, but what did i say?
11:53 < FourFire> "<kanzure> why are you always so broken
11:53 < FourFire>  like what the hell happened to you
11:53 < FourFire>  i used to think it was all the stupid parts of lesswrong leaking into you, but now i'm not sure"
11:53 < gene_hacker> https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/first-movie-of-the-neuronal-activity-in-an-entire-brain-ab315e8ab013
11:54 < kanzure> your moral arguments against aubrey de grey doing anything
11:54 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54xsgZWtWc8
11:54 < yoleaux> Widefield temporal focusing (WF-TEOF) of C.elegans brain for neuroscience.
11:55 < kanzure> gene_hacker: did you see the CLEAR thing?
11:55 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-NMfp13Uug
11:55 < yoleaux> See-through brains
11:55 < kanzure> gene_hacker: that one
11:55 < gene_hacker> so Brainbow 2: electric boogaloo?
11:56 < kanzure> paperbot: http://arxiv.org/abs/1406.1603
11:56 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnmeth.2637
11:57 < FourFire> kanzure, oh, I made moral arguments?
11:57 < FourFire> uhh
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11:57 < kanzure> "it is immoral for him not to be doing public promotion"
11:57 < kanzure> etc
11:58 < FourFire> I was pointing out that yes, he might be a very productive person working in the field, but it might be better if he tells ten other scientist people about the field existing, and maybe gets some rich people to fund things
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11:59 < FourFire> I didn't say it's immoral for him to work in the field :(
11:59 < kanzure> he *is* a rich person
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12:03 < chris_99> i've got a question for him, just how does he keep his beard so luscious
12:03 < FourFire> kanzure, ok, but does 10 million go very far?
12:04 < gene_hacker> beard wax does wonders
12:04 < chris_99> heh
12:04 < kanzure> FourFire: depends on what you're doing
12:05 < kanzure> using academic labs is very expensive because the universities take 58% of all incoming money
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12:08 < FourFire> 58% ?
12:08 < FourFire> that's a very specific number
12:09 < kanzure> 52-58% usually
12:09 < kanzure> somewhere around that range. it's never 50%.
12:09 < ParahSailin> the beer constantly dripping into the beard acts as a moisturizer and sunscreen
12:09 < chris_99> haha
12:13 < chris_99> http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/28e4v3/aubrey_de_grey_ama/
12:13 < FourFire> seems interesting: http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/28e4v3/aubrey_de_grey_ama/cia1asc
12:14 < FourFire> ...
12:16 < chris_99> haha he's got his favourite beer style on thar
12:16 < ParahSailin> dont get me wrong, i dont think hes an alcoholic
12:17 < kanzure> wouldn't be too bad if he was, anyway
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12:17 < ParahSailin> but when you are good enough, a constant diet of beer means you dont get drunk, and means you require very little solid food
12:17 < ParahSailin> it is the original soylent
12:17 < chris_99> haha
12:17 < ParahSailin> everyone is just catching up to adg
12:18 < chris_99> this google Calico thing sounds interesting
12:18 < kanzure> most people don't need aubrey to tell them about calico since it was plastered all over the crapnews..
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12:19 < nmz787_i> 'The name Calico is shorthand for California Life Company'
12:23 < JanSauerbier> the name geico
12:23 < JanSauerbier> is shorthand for government insurance company
12:23 < ParahSailin> government employee, yeah
12:23 < JanSauerbier> fqn lizard people
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13:05 < ParahSailin> people still talking about that azolla experiment? i thought it was already established that they are paying extra for the wrong kinds of sequencing
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13:08 < kanzure> bullshit diffuses faster than people stop to wonder if anyone has already identified the bullshit
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13:23 < nmz787_i> ParahSailin: no one mentioned that on diybio
13:23 < ParahSailin> ah, well its in the comments of that crowdfunding page
13:23 < nmz787_i> oh
13:23 < nmz787_i> didn't look that far
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13:24 < nmz787_i> saw that their prizes were retarded and they were all academics
13:24 < nmz787_i> just seemed like they got super lazy
13:24 < nmz787_i> so i was dissuaded quite fast
13:24 < ParahSailin> basically, a 300 cycle illumina run will have utter shit error rate
13:25 < ParahSailin> and they should do the cheaper, more data 200 cycle PE run
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13:28 < ParahSailin> biologists should not be allowed to design these experiments
13:28 < kanzure> paperbot: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2011/lc/c0lc00550a
13:29 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Micromolding%20of%20solvent%20resistant%20microfluidic%20devices.pdf
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13:49 < kanzure> what are those rubber jar caps called where you can insert a needle without exposing the contents to the environment?
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13:54 < ParahSailin> vial
13:55 < kanzure> how does it prevent leakage?
13:56 < ParahSailin> crimpage
14:00 < kanzure> can you find me a diagram
14:02 < nmz787_i> kanzure: brandname is SureSeal
14:02 < kanzure> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12353585 "n the early 1990s, the microscopy and microanalysis group of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration's Forensic Chemistry Center (FCC) developed and implemented a method (unpublished) to locate needle punctures in rubber pharmaceutical vial stoppers."
14:02 < nmz787_i> kanzure: otherwise they're septa bottle tops/lids
14:02 < nmz787_i> rubber septa
14:02 < kanzure> so the holes are still there
14:03 < nmz787_i> yeah, just all smoosed up
14:03 < kanzure> smoosed?
14:03 < nmz787_i> smooshed
14:03 < kanzure> well yes but how?
14:03 < nmz787_i> its like smashed
14:03 < nmz787_i> umm
14:03 < nmz787_i> just how rubber works
14:03 < kanzure> magic
14:03 < kanzure> hm
14:03 < nmz787_i> it has some limited flow
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14:26 < kanzure> "Transmission electron microscopy study of magnetites in a freshwater population of magnetotactic bacteria" http://www.impmc.jussieu.fr/~menguy/PDFs/Articles/Isambert_AmMin_2007.pdf
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14:41 < nmz787_i> yay for online ESD training!
14:41 < nmz787_i> sortof
14:41 < kanzure> ?
14:42 < nmz787_i> 'When you feel that shockk! >=~3kV
14:42 < nmz787_i> "
14:42 < nmz787_i> hear it... ~5kV
14:42 < nmz787_i> see it, ~8kV
14:44 < FourFire> nmz787, but tiny current
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14:45 < ThomasEgi> when your cmos device experiences ESD shock... you'll notice by getting sporadic weird unpredictable hard to debug errors.
14:48 < nmz787_i> hmm, even an undischarged field can induce damage
14:49 < nmz787_i> ThomasEgi: you have experienced a 'Latent Failure'
14:49 < nmz787_i> 90% of all failures fall into that category
14:50 < nmz787_i> ungroundable non-conductors should reamain 18" away from device
14:51 < nmz787_i> hmm
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14:51 < nmz787_i> guess i need a grounding mat for my desk
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14:51 < nmz787_i> wheely chairs: 18kV generators
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14:52 < nmz787_i> paperwork should not come into direct contact with sensitive components
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14:52 < kanzure> this is a good review of bacterial magnetotaxis http://www.calpoly.edu/~rfrankel/RBFAnnRevBio.pdf
14:53 < nmz787_i>  hmm, heel straps for your shoes
14:53 < kanzure> interesting that they appear in most freshwater ponds
14:53 < nmz787_i> too many ions elsewhere?
14:53 < nmz787_i> in salt water i mean
14:54 < kanzure> no, they appear in salt water as well
14:54 < nmz787_i> hmm, ground monitors... complains if your wrist strap or desk mat goes ungrounded
14:56 < nmz787_i> 'IC lotion'
14:58 < nmz787_i> wrist and heel straps need tested daily
14:59 < ThomasEgi> if you have unprotected inputs.. looking at it with a fritening look on your face might already be enough to cause damage ;)
15:00 < ThomasEgi> laser diodes are the worst when it comes to that
15:00 < kanzure> hm, there was a company that was going to use magnetosomes from bacteria as a magnetic tape (for data storage)
15:01 < nmz787_i> http://www.ebay.com/itm/3M-722-ESD-Work-Station-Monitor-Anti-Static-w-730-Remote-Input-Jack-TESTED-Y51-/321400479192?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ad4f61dd8
15:01 < ThomasEgi> once build an amplifier with about 6gigaohm input impedance. it picked up strong signals from an old cathode tube tv several rooms away from mine.  good thing it didn't cause any damage.
15:01 < nmz787_i> hmm, selling from next town over
15:02 < nmz787_i> 'guests only need 1 heel strap, unless they're going to handle devices, then they need 2
15:02 < nmz787_i> '
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15:03 < kanzure> "The magnetite crystals are typically 42 nm in diameter."
15:05 < nmz787_i> metallic bags are only effective if there are no tears or holes and is zipped/folded closed
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15:05 < kanzure> i have no idea what nmz787 is talking about
15:06 < nmz787_i> single-layer bags are single-use only.. crinkles ruin the faraday cage properties
15:06 < nmz787_i> kanzure: these https://svartizulu.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/metal-esd-bag.gif
15:06 < nmz787_i> those are static-shielding
15:06 < nmz787_i> these are anti-static (not for sensitive parts, for stuff like paper work orders, etc) http://uk.farnell.com/productimages/farnell/standard/42259127.jpg
15:08 < kanzure> yes but how did this topic happen
15:08 < kanzure> something about high heel straps?
15:08 < nmz787_i> kanzure: diff is the metallic ones are like a faraday cage (external ESD won't get through)... the pink plastic bags don't generate charge from physical contact (i.e. balloon rubbed on your hair)... but externally applied ESD will penetrate
15:08 < nmz787_i> i'm taking an online training
15:10 < nmz787_i> I wonder if un-grounded vs grounded people experienced this differently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859
15:11 < kanzure> gene_hacker: 42 nm magnetic nanoparticles, what cool things should be done with them
15:12 < kanzure> besides magnetic resonance imaging
15:13 < kanzure> "Magnetic nanoparticles can be used for a variety of genetics applications. One application is the isolation of mRNA. This can be done quickly – usually within 15 minutes. In this particular application, the magnetic bead is attached to a poly T tail. When mixed with mRNA, the poly A tail of the mRNA will attach to the bead's poly T tail and the isolation takes place simply by placing a magnet on the side of the tube and pouring out the ...
15:13 < kanzure> ... liquid."
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15:40 < ParahSailin> paperbot: http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/dev/50/3/881/
15:40 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/584b6e4a1faf949d769140d8292e211f.txt
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15:58 < nmz787_i> 'in the event of an emergency, call 4-4444, DO NOT CALL 911'
15:58 < nmz787_i> hmm
15:58 < nmz787_i> I wonder if DIY labs should follow this
15:59 < kanzure> 911 might be aware of that number
15:59 < kanzure> ... probably not, nevermind.
16:05 < nmz787_i> nah its an internal number
16:06 < ParahSailin> campus popo
16:06 < ParahSailin> their pbx switchboards are all configured the same way
16:10 < kanzure> hmm i need to find a good su8/pdms/photoresist supplier
16:11 < kanzure> http://microchem.com/ http://www.gersteltec.ch/ http://makerjuice.com/ http://www.tok.co.jp/en/products/ https://www.norlandprod.com/adhesives/ http://www.deco-coat.com/uv.html
16:11 < kanzure> feels like i'm missing an obvious supplier
16:18 < kanzure> nmz787_i: i have a chemistry consultant friend who is an expert at photoresists, epoxies and all things that cure,
16:18 < kanzure> nmz787_i: i'm preparing an email to him since i haven't talked with him in a while
16:18 < kanzure> nmz787_i: if you want to pile in any questions, let me know
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16:28 < kanzure> hm, he is having surgery tomorrow, so will have lots of time to read
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16:43 < nmz787_i> kanzure: hmm, idk right now... nothing comes to mind immediately
16:43 < nmz787_i> kanzure: FYI in case you don't realize, that tok.co.jp company is literally right up the street from me
16:44 < nmz787_i> from work its like turn out of parking lot, right onto evergreen, left onto brookwood, right into TOK parking lot
16:44 < nmz787_i> and they've been quite helpful in email and on calls
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17:14 < nmz787_i> http://opensourcebridge.org/events/2014/tracks
17:14 < nmz787_i> Chemistry track
17:29 < kanzure> azco biotech replied to that microfluidic dna synthesizer thread
17:52 < nmz787_i> yeah
17:52 < nmz787_i> the OP of that thread never replied to my last email to him
17:52 < nmz787_i> so whatever
17:52 < nmz787_i> which was like a month or more ago
17:53 < kanzure> i am not convinced that their project is open source
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17:53 < kanzure> they just have some stupid facebook pics or something
17:53 < kanzure> "Early on in their life, Instacart couldn't convince grocery stories to give them access to product inventory lists or high-quality photos. So they found a cheap photography studio over a weekend, went to their local Trader Joe's to buy one of every single item and then spent 48 hours photographing all the inventory. Problem solved."
17:56 < justanotheruser> sounds expensive
17:56 < jmil> open access article: 3D Printing and the Billion Cell Construct http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1001882
17:56 < jmil> kanzure: i hope you enjoy it ^^^
17:56 < jmil> :D
17:57 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1001882
17:57 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/The%20Billion%20Cell%20Construct%3A%20Will%20Three-Dimensional%20Printing%20Get%20Us%20There%3F.pdf
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18:20 < nmz787_i> kanzure: he never responded after I sent him an idea based on the few things he told me
18:20 < nmz787_i> kanzure: I wonder if my idea was too close to theirs
18:20 < nmz787_i> or he thought I came off as too, uh, too strong?
18:20 < kanzure> that's strange, considering they claim it's open source
18:20 < kanzure> maybe we should ask cathal to clear up the situation
18:20 < nmz787_i> meh
18:21 < kanzure> hah
18:21 < nmz787_i> their synbioaxlr8r didnt require it
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18:21 < gene_hacker> kanzure: ferrofluid perhaps?
18:21 < kanzure> i haven't played with a ferrofluid ever
18:21 < gene_hacker> you should, it is quite entertaining
18:22 < gene_hacker> with a bit of chemistry magic you might be able to make this: http://spie.org/x48084.xml
18:23 < gene_hacker> http://spie.org/x48084.xml .title
18:23 < kanzure> .title
18:23 < yoleaux> Magnetically responsive photonic nanostructures
18:23 < kanzure> you could probably 3d print a magnetic material
18:24 < gene_hacker> they're pretty
18:24 < gene_hacker> HP is doing that here
18:24 < gene_hacker> with the university
18:25 < gene_hacker> it makes me really angry though, because HP has inkjet dev-kits that can jet photopolymer, but they aren't selling them to anybody
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18:26 < kanzure> hm
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18:31 < kanzure> "We began by developing a robust procedure for preparing magnetite (Fe3O4) colloidal nanocrystal clusters (CNCs) with uniform size (∼30–180nm).3"
18:31 < kanzure> oh, well, magnetite is exactly what the bacteria are producing
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19:32 < kanzure> yashgaroth: bought an ABI 391
19:32 < yashgaroth> sweet
19:32 < yashgaroth> which one, the $500 from ebay?
19:32 < kanzure> yep
19:33 < kanzure> need arsenal of "primers i wish i would remember to synthesize some day"
19:33 < yashgaroth> I'll have some primer requests if you get it working
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19:49 < kanzure> openscad is having an explosive thread about language design
19:49 < kanzure> it is silly
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19:52 < kanzure> under that "OpenSCAD 3000" title http://rocklinux.net/pipermail/openscad/2014-June/thread.html
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20:15 < kanzure> "The US also rigged the Norwegian selection of the F-35. It was was pretty much pre-decided that Norway had to go for the F35 for political reasons, even though all the committees preferred the Swedish JAS Gripen. The US gave them a great excuse by denying the export by Raytheon of an important upgrade. All this was revealed by Wikileaks." http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2010/12/wikileaks-shows-us-played-aesa/
20:16 < kanzure> oh.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals
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20:37 < nmz787> kanzure: so good or bad idea to do an invite on meetup.com for the synthesizer take-apart?
20:38 < kanzure> i think you should do it alone first
20:39 < kanzure> i really wouldn't trust random people to know how to do a sane teardown (where it gets put back together)
20:39 < kanzure> or how to sanely take pics of every component; people get bitchy when you're trying to be comprehensive like that
20:43 < nmz787> well it could be a 'watch me work' thing
20:43 < nmz787> idk
20:43 < nmz787> i'm fine with lonerism
20:58 < nmz787> this was cool http://zeptobars.ru/en/read/FTDI-FT232RL-real-vs-fake-supereal
20:58 < nmz787> this was what another guy used, who presented at bsides http://www.amazon.com/DAddario-VR200-Natural-Rosin-Light/dp/B0002OP0WC/
20:58 < nmz787> $3
20:59 < nmz787> apparently people haven't done, but some ppl are interested in, decompiling an FPGA binary blob
21:00 < kanzure> between jblake, azonenberg and iimarckus i think at least one of them have done that twice and also forgotten about it
21:02 < gradstudentbot> Hood life: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=296519020495014
21:04 < nmz787> back to verilog?
21:04 < nmz787> like, here's a binary blob, we know it was on a spartan 3a, get me the verilog
21:08 < nmz787> damnit
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21:08 < nmz787> now i'm reading about electro-phoresis/osmosis/kinetic flow
21:08 < nmz787> it's good,  but I didn't plan to get sucked into this
21:21 < kanzure> solidworks steam locomotive http://ckhollidayplans.com/build.html
21:25 < nmz787> i really want to see some stuff on a thorium steam powered car
21:25 < nmz787> or VTOL
21:26 < nmz787> idk maybe steam is not ideal since you need to fill up on H2O
21:26 < nmz787> but it seems resistant to solar flares and EMP
21:26 < nmz787> which in the face of the sun we're pretty screwed
21:27 < nmz787> like, oh shit, those people who print all their PDFs aren't screwed
21:29 < gradstudentbot> Sorry for wasting your time.
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21:41 < gene_hacker> whoa there cowboy, thorium reactors require fast neutrons and generate lots of gamma rays
21:42 < gene_hacker> if you could build a thorium powered car, you would not want to be near it
21:42 < gene_hacker> it would be really cool to see at night though
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21:52 < nmz787> wouldn't there be enough power to haul around the required shielding?
21:55 < kanzure> .g phosphoramidite supplier
21:55 < yoleaux> http://www.bioneer.co.kr/products/Oligo/DNARNASynthesisReagents-overview.aspx
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21:56 < gene_hacker> well why bother when you can make it unmanned?
21:56 < gene_hacker> who needs underglow when you have cherenkov radiation? http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e256/blinddemonz/My%20Car/Underglow/underglow2.jpg
21:57 < kanzure> "Direct sunlight should also be avoided during operation of your PE/Applied Biosystems instru
21:58 < kanzure> "Methylimidazole/Tetrahydrofuran
21:58 < kanzure> "Methylimidazole/Tetrahydrofuran lifetime on instrument: 6 weeks"
21:58 < gene_hacker> anyway just what is the plan with the old synth?
21:58 < kanzure> well that's inconvenient
21:58 < gene_hacker> do we have a fume hood for it?
22:01 < kanzure> hmm a fume hood is required: "The waste bottle is the low pressure side of the delivery system and must always be kept vented to atmosphere. Be sure the vent line is properly routed to a fume hood. If the vent line is blocked, back pressure will be generated which will decrease the deliveries of reagents and solvents."
22:01 < gene_hacker> yup
22:01 < kanzure> "The vent line carries gaseous waste to a suitable exhaust such as a fume hood. Applied Biosystems supplies a 25-foot length of tubing to connect the vent line to a fume hood. Proper venting allows operation of the Model 391 on an open lab bench."
22:02 < kanzure> "Prevent condensation from collecting in the vent line by continuously sloping the tubing upward toward the fume hood."
22:12 < kanzure> ammonium hydroxide, acetonitrile (4 L), anhydrous acetonitrile (not HPLC acetonitrile), toluenesulfonic acid, argon cylinder size 1A (regulator and adaptor), phosphoramidites bottled as powders sealed under argon pressure (stable for 1 year minimum) (dissolved in the anhydrous acetonitrile), deoxyinosine, tetrazole/acetonitrile (180 mL), acetic anhydric/lutidine/THF (180 mL), 1-methylimidazole (180 mL), trichloroacetic acid (450 mL), ...
22:12 < kanzure> ... iodine/water/pyridine/THF (200 mL)
22:15 < kanzure> "The synthesizer generates 1 to 2 liters of hazardous, halogenated, organic liquid waste per 100 base additions. The waste is collected in a 4 liter polyethylene bottle which is placed on the floor or on a nearby bench LOWER than the instrument. The bottle can be kept inside a protective carrier to contain accidental spillage. A one-gallon carrier is sufficient and can be purchased from VWR, Part Number 56609-186; or Nalge, Part Number ...
22:15 < kanzure> ... 6501-0010. When the bottle is full, it must be emptied as follows: unscrew the cap assembly and immediately recap the bottle to prevent the escape of vapros. Save and ruse old bottle caps. Discard the waste. Place the liquid in a sealed container labeled "FLAMMABLE", "POISON B N.O.S." or absorb in vermiculite, dry sand or earth. Dispose of the waste following applicable government regulations. Wear gloves and eye protection. Avoid ...
22:15 < kanzure> ... inhalation and skin contact."
22:15 < kanzure> lolz 2 liters "hazardous, halogenated, organic liquid" waste per 100 bp
22:15 < kanzure> hahaha
22:25 < gene_hacker> that's a surprising amount
22:26 < gene_hacker> which means if you want to synthesize big stuff you're gonna generate a lot of wase
22:27 < kanzure> 98% coupling efficiency, can't generate things too long without it screwing up
22:27 < kanzure> here's the docs http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/abi391/
22:28 < kanzure> they claim up to 175 bp
22:29 < justanotheruser> kanzure: how many research papers do you read per day?
22:29 < kanzure> over 9000
22:30 < justanotheruser> o
22:30 < justanotheruser> 30 (estimate) * 365 * 9000 ~= 100 million
22:31 < nmz787> justanotheruser: 30 hours per kanzure's day?
22:31 < justanotheruser> Finally, Arif Jinha at the University of Ottawa has recently estimated that the number of journal articles published since time began is about 50 million [3]
22:32 < nmz787> kanzure: the waste is why I want microfluidics!
22:32 < justanotheruser> nmz787: no, 30 years per kanzures life
22:32 < nmz787> kanzure: and also that we have to pay for the pre-waste
22:32 < nmz787> oh
22:32 < kanzure> i am approximately 24.5 years old at the moment
22:32 < justanotheruser> O_o
22:33 < kanzure> nine thousand https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBtpyeLxVkI
22:33 < justanotheruser> kanzure: <3 Pokemon
22:33 < nmz787> a gallon of waste can be between like $50 and $250 to get rid of
22:34 < kanzure> they claim it's okay to dump it into soil
22:34 < justanotheruser> nmz787: BS
22:34 < kanzure> SO IT MUST BE TRUE
22:34 < kanzure> just don't let the goats eat it or something
22:34 < justanotheruser> nmz787: It doesn't cost more than $1 in gas to drive to a nearby body of water for me.
22:35 < kanzure> not sure if dumping organic synthesis waste into freshwater is smart
22:35 < nmz787> that's how portland became a superfund site
22:35 < justanotheruser> kanzure: It's okay, it's salt water
22:36 < justanotheruser> Well it has become salt water since I've been dumping so many salts into it ^_^
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22:37 < kanzure> i guess 30 isn't that different from 24
22:37 < justanotheruser> kanzure: sry
22:38 < kanzure> shrug, half the people in here think i'm sort of brain damaged self-hating professor working in an academic lab
22:38 < justanotheruser> kanzure: do you believe in IQ tests?
22:38 < kanzure> i believe there are tests called iq tests
22:39 < justanotheruser> do you believe in their merits?
22:39 < kanzure> very few of the merits, although some of them
22:39 < justanotheruser> have you taken one?
22:40 < kanzure> yeah, a few, i took more when i was younger, and less as i grew older, and the ones i was taking less were also less uh.. good. the earlier ones were much more rigorous.
22:40 < justanotheruser> what did you get?
22:41 < kanzure> i've consistently scored 120ish
22:41 < justanotheruser> hm
22:41 < nmz787> kanzure:  last time i heard i thought you weren't even 21 yet
22:41 < kanzure> well you've known me for a while
22:41 < kanzure> we met in 2009
22:41 < justanotheruser> nmz787: well if you average my guess and your guess, we get close to his age
22:42 < nmz787> justanotheruser: i thought you were saying 30 year life expectancy from now
22:42 < kanzure> honestly i'm surprised i'm not closer to 100
22:42 < justanotheruser> nmz787: no
22:42 < nmz787> he took a few years to learn to read
22:42 < justanotheruser> I thought he was 30 based on his SKDB talk video :P
22:43 < kanzure> there were two people in that one, btw
22:43 < justanotheruser> are you the one with glasses and sideburns?
22:43 < kanzure> probably
22:43 < kanzure> i am not the short scruffy one
22:44 < justanotheruser> Because you look about 20-25 in that video and it was in 2009
22:44 < kanzure> if you mean the guy that looks like aubrey, that's todd huffman
22:44 < justanotheruser> the guy who basically talks the whole time in this and is introduced as bryan bishop http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n39RK4inzg&list=PL9F4F7BF006E610E6
22:45 < kanzure> yes the guy who is introduced as me is e
22:45 < kanzure> *is me
22:45 < kanzure> regarding iq, i don't think intelligence is a very good explanation of what the brain is doing
22:45 < kanzure> or description for that matter
22:45 < justanotheruser> I think so too
22:46 < justanotheruser> I think you have to have a certain intelligence to be able to do it
22:46 < kanzure> to do what?
22:46 < justanotheruser> kanzure: teach self diybio
22:46 < justanotheruser> and read and understand bio research papers
22:47 < justanotheruser> I guess probably >100
22:47 < justanotheruser> can do it
22:47 < justanotheruser> then you have to be persistent
22:48 < kanzure> most papers are crap
22:48 < gradstudentbot> I'm writing that up and it will be submitted soon.
22:48 < kanzure> gradstudentbot: can i coauthor that paper?
22:48 < gradstudentbot> I coauthored a paper about that a few years ago.
22:54 < nmz787> ttyl
22:59 < kanzure> and papers are sorta silly anyway
22:59 < archels> nmz787: what was the URL for that online ESD safety training?
23:00 < kanzure> justanotheruser: btw that wasn't a paper; it's the manual to a toy i bought
23:01 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/abi391/ABI%20391-manual.pdf
23:03 < archels> it synthesises DNA *and* brews yerba mate? that's brilliant
23:04 < kanzure> it also generates a lovely amount of "industrial byproduct"
23:05 < archels> how do you validate the output product? Do you also have (access to) a sequencer?
23:05 < kanzure> spectrophotometer
23:06 < kanzure> old school way is gfp, antibiotic resistance, toxin resistance, etc
23:06 < archels> right
23:06 < kanzure> wouldn't mind having a dna sequencer but it's not high on my priority list
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23:19 < kanzure> "It is important to keep the oligonucleotides cold to minimize bacterial growth."
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23:23 < kanzure> appendix B page 4 has a schematic of the fluidic circuit
23:24 < nmz787> archels: internal to company
23:24 < nmz787> g'night
23:32 < kanzure> "Temperatures below 16 C (60 F) must be avoided because they will cause the tetrazole to precipitate from solution."
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23:33 < kanzure> "A regulated cylinder (size 1A) of prepurified (99.998%) argon must be connected to the rear panel of the synthesizer. The instrument has a gas input that accepts 1/4-in.-o.d. ParflexTM tubing with appropriate Swagelok® tube fittings (1/4-in. nut and ferrule). A 10-ft length of ParflexTM tubing (1/4-in. o.d.) and the necessary Swagelok® fittings to connect this tubing to the instrument are provided."
23:33 < kanzure> "The argon tank requires a two-gauge regulator with a CGA (Compressed Gas Association) 580 argon cylinder adapter on the inlet side and a Swagelok® fitting that accepts a 1/4-in.-o.d. tube. The primary gauge (0-3000 psi; 0-25,000 kPa recommended) measures tank pressure, and the secondary gauge (0-200 psi; 0-2000 kPa recommended) measures regulated pressure. The regulator must be obtained by the user prior to installation."
23:34 < kanzure> "Typical argon consumption is approximately 3.0 m3 every four weeks. Size 1A cylinders have a capacity of 8.2 cm3 and should last approximately three months. The tank should be regulated to approximately 65 psi (450 kPa)."
23:34 < kanzure> er, 3 m^3
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23:40 < kanzure> argon cylinder size 1A is 75 kg
--- Log closed Wed Jun 18 00:00:38 2014