--- Log opened Thu Jul 17 00:00:06 2014
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03:39 < Urchin[emacs]> hi
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06:38 < JayDugger> Good morning.
06:47 < kanzure_> hi
06:49 < cluckj> hi
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13:11 < ybit> https://imgur.com/8LynGXL
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14:20 < dpk> .privacy
14:20 < yoleaux> dpk: This channel is public. When I am asked when I last saw you, I may repeat things you say and what time it was when you said them.
14:21 < kanzure_> what about it?
14:21 < kanzure_> .title
14:21 < yoleaux> imgur: the simple image sharer
14:21 < kanzure_> oh yeah
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14:43 < AshleyWaffle> http://www.defenseone.com/technology/2014/07/breakthrough-checkered-history-military-brain-hacking/87709/
14:44 < AshleyWaffle> someone should re-produce that tech and publish it so that darpa doesnt get farther than the rest of us
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15:01 < kaafir> darpa's p good
15:06 < jrayhawk> haha "farther than the rest of us"
15:06 < jrayhawk> HANS REISER WAS A FALSE FLAG ATTACK
15:06 < kaafir> murderFS
15:07 < jrayhawk> we'll have to recreate the internet to catch back up with DARPA
15:07 < jrayhawk> using IPX
15:07 < kaafir> darpas been working on a replacement for tcip for prolly a decade now
15:08 < kaafir> in their own words its 'flawed'
15:08 < jrayhawk> See? My god we're losing the arms race against DARPA!
15:08 < kaafir> nothing wrong with darpa
15:09 < kaafir> besides civilians dont have the ability to implement the infrastructure to create an indy network infrastructure
15:09 < kaafir> mmm i said the same world twice
15:09 < kaafir> need more crack
15:09 < kaafir> bbiab
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16:13 < kanzure_> ParahSailin_: how do i make my reply more manipulative? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8050558
16:13 < kanzure_> jrayhawk: also seeking your advice
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16:17 < jrayhawk> haha oh yeah, this was the guy who was all "ketosis fixed most of my son's problems. also, we are no longer doing ketosis because it's inconvenient."
16:18 < jrayhawk> not sure i would want to work with someone that brittle
16:24 < cluckj> ketosis is a royal pain in the ass
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16:30 < kanzure_> well, it's more like, if i'm not able to convince him, i wouldn't be able to convince some grieving parent
16:30 < kanzure_> "Your kid is gonna die unless you do this"
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16:49 < cluckj> o_O
16:49 < cluckj> why would someone die if they weren't in ketosis
16:51 < kanzure_> http://matt.might.net/articles/my-sons-killer/
16:52 < kanzure_> "You can order a batch for $244..... Unfortunately, we can't just order a batch and inject Bertrand. We need to get FDA approval, and we'll need Genzyme's cooperation."
16:52 < kanzure_> what a coward
17:00 < kanzure_> his response: "Of course we've considered it. It's a murky moral calculus."
17:00 < kanzure_> yes.. if by murky you mean wading through the blood of dead children. sure.
17:03 < cluckj> uh
17:03 < cluckj> what
17:03 < kanzure_> not manipulative enough?
17:03 < kanzure_> you're right, i can do better
17:03 < cluckj> no I mean you can do better
17:03 < cluckj> ^
17:04 < kanzure_> "I'll have to weigh the blood of a thousand dead children against my cold hard, murky moral calculus"
17:04 < cluckj> why is the approval of the FDA more important than a kid's life?
17:05 < kanzure_> so, it's certainly important to say that the drug might not actually work for him, or it might even kill him
17:05 < kanzure_> but yes, your question is still valid in both of those situations anyway
17:05 < cluckj> oh definitely
17:06 < cluckj> it's not as if injecting the kid with the enzyme is going to fix everything forever
17:06 < kanzure_> "If it makes you feel better, the kid's still going to be fucked in the head for quite a while. At least a decade."
17:07 < cluckj> maybe "get your scientist friends to start a trial at a hospital"
17:07 < cluckj> DIY style is probably a bad plan
17:08 < kanzure_> a good experimental design is still good whether "diy" or not
17:08 < cluckj> and about the ketosis, it seems like it only worked for a little while then stopped
17:08 < kanzure_> i think there's another article that jrayhawk is thinking about
17:08 < cluckj> (and they were doing it wrong)
17:08 < cluckj> oh
17:09 < cluckj> 1g carbs/4g fat is way too many carbs
17:09 < cluckj> for an adult human ketosis will happen with <50g carbs per day
17:09 < cluckj> better to aim for zero carbs....
17:10 < jrayhawk> Yeah, when you have a glycation disorder, zero carbing does seem like a much better plan.
17:11 < cluckj> the body will kick out of ketosis at the slightest availability of extra carbs
17:12 < jrayhawk> not slightest, but yeah
17:14 < cluckj> my experience with it is different because of the diabetes
17:14 < jrayhawk> Type 1?
17:15 < cluckj> yeah
17:15 < jrayhawk> Okay, yeah, I can see that being a bit more of a royal pain in the ass.
17:18 < cluckj> too many carbs and it's super-quick DKA :)
17:18 < jrayhawk> Or too little insulin for that matter.
17:18 < nmz787> paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.3233/JAD-2012-120886
17:18 < cluckj> yes
17:18 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/840c4d55ef147dfa4d6698ef21006690.txt
17:19 < jrayhawk> At worst I get a nasty headache from dropping out of it too fast.
17:19 < cluckj> ouch
17:19 < jrayhawk> Seems dandy to me!
17:19 < jrayhawk> At least, relatively speaking.
17:19 < cluckj> hah
17:19 < kanzure_> jrayhawk's hobbies include simulating type 1 diabetes
17:20 < kanzure_> and pretending to count calories
17:20 < jrayhawk> that would be more a simulation of type 2 diabetes
17:20 < cluckj> ^
17:20 < kanzure_> i wanted to give you an obviously wrong hobby
17:20 < jrayhawk> peripheral insulin resistance and acute massive neural oxidative stress
17:20 < jrayhawk> Haha, okay
17:20 < cluckj> insulin resistance is surprisingly easy to do!
17:22 < cluckj> I'm still recovering my sensitivity a month after my stupid experiment
17:22 < jrayhawk> what was the stupid experiment?
17:23 < cluckj> I lost a lot of weight before I was diagnosed (two days ago, last year) and was trying to gain it back by eating a fuckload of fats
17:23 < cluckj> mostly in ice cream form.
17:23 < cluckj> the saturated fats wrecked my sensitivity to insulin by about 25%
17:24 < jrayhawk> Are you sure that wasn't the fructose?
17:25 < cluckj> yes
17:25 < kanzure_> couldn't you just guzzle fat instead
17:25 < cluckj> I did :P
17:25 < cluckj> ice cream!
17:26 < jrayhawk> Dense soluable-fiber-free sources of glucose/fructose rewire a bunch of energy homeostasis stuff to maximize intake and shuffle it mostly into adipose tissue.
17:26 < cluckj> I did not get fat :(
17:27 < cluckj> now I'm eating nuts, seems to be working
17:28 < jrayhawk> Excellent.
17:28 < cluckj> unsaturated fats are great
17:29 < cluckj> my cholesterol level is like 250 though :o
17:29 < cluckj> HDL is 175
17:29 < jrayhawk> Oh, that's fine.
17:30 < jrayhawk> Much north of 250 gets to be a bit concerning, but 250 is dandy in terms of mortality numbers.
17:30 < jrayhawk> At least, mortality numbers adjusted for dyslipidemia, which you clearly don't have.
17:31 < cluckj> well, 250 is good with the HDL extremely high
17:31 < jrayhawk> Yeah.
17:32 < jrayhawk> If you wind up having problems with saturated fat again, palmitate/oleate ratios might be a thing to research and play around with.
17:33 < cluckj> actually those numbers are wrong
17:34 < jrayhawk> http://www.jbc.org/content/283/17/11107.full notably this
17:34 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1074%2Fjbc.M708700200
17:34 < cluckj> cholesterol was only 231
17:35 < kanzure_> paperbot is a tease
17:35 < jrayhawk> more details http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20876761
17:36 < cluckj> oh that's cool
17:37 < jrayhawk> in the high-fat dieting communities, it's concluded that some people just do better on MUFAs than SFAs, and that it's probably genetically determined.
17:37 < cluckj> I just bought a 3lb bag of pecans
17:37 < jrayhawk> I support your decision to get fat.
17:38 < cluckj> haha, that study is basically my diet change in the last month
17:38 < jrayhawk> At least with T2D, overweight BMIs have lower mortality than normal BMIs.
17:38 < cluckj> I went from dairy fat (saturated) to nut fat (unsaturated)
17:38 < cluckj> I'm 6' 140lbs right now
17:38 < jrayhawk> so tiny :(
17:38 < cluckj> yes, I was 165 before my pancreas ate shit
17:39 < jrayhawk> I weigh more than you and I'm 5'6"
17:39 < cluckj> I don't necessarily want to get obese, but have some more places to put my insulin pump and glucose sensor :|
17:40 < jrayhawk> Yeah, obese BMI did not fare well.
17:40 < jrayhawk> I hope to get obese by the time I hit male menopause, but I am in no hurry.
17:40 < cluckj> lol
17:40 < cluckj> I'm still at the point where some subcutaneous fat would be nice
17:42 < Viper168_> most fats tend to be bad though
17:42 < Viper168_> for your heart
17:42 < jrayhawk> that's a good troll
17:42 < Viper168_> hardening arteries and such
17:42 < jrayhawk> thanks for the effort
17:42 < cluckj> ya
17:42 < Viper168_> I'd suggest sticking with coconut oil
17:42 < cluckj> lmao
17:42 < Viper168_> and similar fats
17:43 < cluckj> nice
17:44 < Viper168_> hey if you want to follow your fad gurus and think all fats are ok, enjoy dying early
17:44 < nmz787> kanzure_: those old mailing list entries seem legit to keep around, were the original poster's the ones complaining?
17:44 < jrayhawk> Viper168_: even the AHA, which is basically a marketing arm of Proctor & Gamble, has given up on the lipid hypothesis
17:44 < kanzure_> nmz787: some dude was complaining, who had posted a little bit too much about himself
17:45 < jrayhawk> like that shit got disproven by a half dozen RCTs back in the 70's and 80's. nobody believes it anymore. not even the old guard of lipidemiology.
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17:45 < jrayhawk> (Well, Ehren's never believed it in the first place)
17:46 < jrayhawk> You have to have literally never read a paper on lipidemiology in the past decade to think what you've just said is true.
17:46 < Viper168_> it's funny how we measur ethe choloesterol levels though and it's proven to be bad
17:46 < nmz787> paperbot should query us for a new filename
17:47 < nmz787> and have a timeout of like 20 seconds if one isn't provided
17:47 < kanzure_> i'm not ready to trust others with filenaming :(
17:47 < Viper168_> if everyone is abandoning the idea
17:47 < nmz787> or spawn the processing in a thread, and ask us for a filename immediately
17:47 < cluckj> I think I'll stick with unsaturated fats thx
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17:47 < nmz787> then timeout if a new name hasn't been provided after it has the .pdf downloaded
17:48 < kanzure_> tags might be more useful
17:48 < jrayhawk> Viper168_: Dyslipidemia is a marker of immune activity. It is very useful in this regard.
17:49 < jrayhawk> If you have a giant pile of lipopolysaccharide in your bloodstream, *decreasing* cholesterol is not going to help you.
17:49 < jrayhawk> You are confusing cause and effect.
17:49 < jrayhawk> Do not treat blood parameters, treat diseases.
17:50 < Viper168_> yes but eating things that are proven to increase it will harm you
17:50 < jrayhawk> No, cholesterol is what you build cell membranes out of.
17:50 < nmz787> huh, so in dire situations inhaled mannitol can wet dry lungs
17:50 < jrayhawk> It is also a tool of immunology.
17:50 < Viper168_> too much bad and not enough good = bad
17:50 < Viper168_> which is the problem
17:51 < kanzure_> what
17:51 < Viper168_> raising shitty cholesterol
17:51 < jrayhawk> If you have a population with such severe immunological problems that they are literally ratelimited by cholesterol such that feeding them less fat releases less cholesterol, you are not doing them a favor by providing them with less fat.
17:51 < jrayhawk> This is why statins do not decrease overall mortality in almost all cases
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18:08 < nmz787> Viper168_: from what i've ascertained, and i've read much less than jrayhawk , it is more important to avoid bad fats but also to be active in removing blood cholesterol
18:08 < nmz787> 'rotating stock' as the food store people call it
18:08 < nmz787> or a FIFO buffer
18:08 < nmz787> of cholesterol
18:09 < nmz787> supposedly it is quite toxic after it oxidises, which hanging out in oxygen-exchanging medium seems likely to help out
18:10 < jrayhawk> Notably inflammation/oxidative stress causes more membrane damage and turnover.
18:11 < jrayhawk> And lipoproteins also have a lot of direct binding affinities for foreign particles.
18:12 < jrayhawk> (The apolipoprotein B receptor is the one that has problems with arterial intima, but it takes a lot of incompetence for that to accumulate faster than it clears)
18:13 < jrayhawk> Viper168_: http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf Your appeals to consensus epistemology indicate that you are not yet familiar with how consensus gets built. If you can stomach the political narrative, this is an invaluable resource in learning sound epistemology.
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18:16  * nmz787 unwraps a blueberry muffin with butter slathered on it, to wash down with raw milk
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18:23 < jrayhawk> I suppose I should steelman your arguments a bit, though; we still aren't super sure what happens to people with familial hypercholesterolemia in non-inflammatory environments; we do know that, given disease prevelence and fat consumption, there is an underabundance of heart attacks in the 19th century, but it's doubtful that familial hypercholesterolemia is entirely benign.
18:24 < jrayhawk> It's reasonably probable that these people just felt horrible on the average diet of the day and ate differently.
18:24 < nmz787> twinkies feel good in my stomach once in a while
18:26 < jrayhawk> There's further complication in that the sorts of stuff people call "fat" nowadays, e.g. gasoline-, bleach-, and ammonia-treated safflower oil is hugely radicalized and not safely metabolizable. This actually represents a legitimate oxidative/inflammatory concern.
18:27 < jrayhawk> Nuts, meanwhile, come packaged with, for instance, something as crazy as an atmospheric barrier and vitamin E.
18:30 < cluckj> lol
18:30 < cluckj> glad to see I missed nothing :)
18:31 < jrayhawk> Evolutionarily novel trans fats are similarly not safely metabolizable, and cause similar problems.
18:32 < cluckj> then why are trans fats in milk
18:32 < cluckj> hmmm science guy???
18:32 < jrayhawk> Those aren't evolutionarily novel.
18:33 < jrayhawk> Those are a normal part of grassland ecologies, to which we are not only well-suited, but largely dependant upon.
18:34 < jrayhawk> (You actually buy grass-fed milk? Good on you.)
18:34 < jrayhawk> (I find it funny when the grain feeding industry plays up the "free of trans-fats!" angle.)
18:34 < cluckj> lol
18:35 < cluckj> I live in upstate NY, grassfed everything is...down the street
18:38 < jrayhawk> I guess I shouldn't refer to familial hypercholesterolemia as a disease.
18:38 < cluckj> http://www.battenkillcreamery.com/ <--
18:39 < jrayhawk> It is probably adaptive somehow. It'd have to be something pretty good to make a worthwhile tradeoff with not being able to chug lard.
18:39 < cluckj> not chugging lard is a life goal of mine
18:40 < jrayhawk> piffle
18:40 < jrayhawk> any life without lard chugging is hardly a life at all
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18:45 < cluckj> D:
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18:49 < jrayhawk> and i suppose fatty acids from nuts are also mostly in the form of protective lipid bilayer matricies
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18:58 < nmz787> cluckj: but last i was in NYS, raw milk was hard to get (it was a 40 min one way drive for me in Rochester)
18:58 < cluckj> there's a few farms that do it around here
19:00 < cluckj> they make raw milk cheeses too, which are better than the raw milk
19:00 < nmz787> cluckj: I see nothing on that site about grass or grain
19:00 < nmz787> only the stanard 'natural' lingo
19:00 < nmz787> standard*
19:00 < cluckj> the cows are on a pasture iirc
19:01 < nmz787> well you can't drink cheese
19:01 < jrayhawk> you can't?
19:01 < cluckj> you can totally drink cheese.
19:01 < nmz787> also, I don't know how much of a diff it makes, but I avoid milk from cows that eat any grain at all, a lot of /most farmers feed them grain while they get milked
19:05 < cluckj> if it's pasteurized and homogenized there's really not a difference?
19:05 < jrayhawk> The things that seem like they matter would be menatetrenone, vaccinic acid, and conjugated linoleic acid, which seem like they'd be proportional the level of grass feeding, but I have read a some scary studies on mammory glad permeability of cows that does make me have some safety doubts.
19:05 < cluckj> lol
19:06 < cluckj> there are things that cows can eat that make the milk fucking terrible
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19:08 < cluckj> http://cheesefarmer.com/
19:08 < cluckj> this place is also the best, I use their yogurt as starter
19:13 < nmz787> ParahSailin_: how much for a family to get sequenced for famlial cancer study?
19:14 < nmz787> ParahSailin_: like per person, as well as minimum order
19:15 < nmz787> ParahSailin_: not counting analysis, just spit/blood/tissue to contigs
19:15 < ParahSailin_> $99, 23andme
19:15 < nmz787> that isn't sequencing
19:17 < nmz787> ParahSailin_: no idea? i'm pretty sure you've rattled off numbers for what i'm looking for before
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21:04 < ParahSailin_> sorry, didnt really read your question
21:04 < ParahSailin_> 10x coverage?
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21:05 < kanzure_> who needs reading when you have guns
21:06 < ParahSailin_> lane of hiseq each, ~1k pax
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22:12 < nmz787> ParahSailin_: but isn't there some minimum num of lanes per run?
22:12 < kanzure_> historically interesting bitcin tx https://github.com/petertodd/dust-b-gone/blob/master/lib/python-bitcoinlib/bitcoin/tests/data/tx_valid.json
22:12 < kanzure_> *bitcoin tx
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22:18 < ParahSailin_> 8 lanes in a run yo
22:18 < kanzure_> even bitcoin screws up "make clean": https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4548
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22:56 < nmz787> and each lane gives how many X coverage?
22:56 < nmz787> 1?
22:58 < nmz787> kanzure_: ParahSailin_ is there anything easier/more appropriate than local BLAST for finding the part # in these two strings (rather than relying on splitting a -  and taking the right side):"http://octopart.com/grm188r60j475ke19d-murata-196916"
22:58 < nmz787> "Murata - GRM188R60J475KE19D"
22:59 < nmz787> i don't care about murata, so I guess in general I'd prefer the right side, but without the - token I'm not sure it would work as I want on short part #s
23:00 < nmz787> thought I could lstrip non-whitespace from the left side first, to make it less weighty on an alignment
23:00 < nmz787> though*
23:02 < nmz787> for the second string
23:06 < kanzure_> regular expressions
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23:11 < nmz787> BLAST seems more *fun*
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23:16 < kanzure_>  # NOTE: opening up the RPC port to hosts outside your local
23:16 < kanzure_>  # trusted network is NOT RECOMMENDED, because the rpcpassword
23:16 < kanzure_>  # is transmitted over the network unencrypted.
23:16 < kanzure_> wtf
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--- Log closed Fri Jul 18 00:00:07 2014