--- Log opened Wed Oct 08 00:00:03 2014
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05:44 < heath> .title http://www.cbd.int/gbo4/
05:44 < yoleaux> Global Biodiversity Outlook 4
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07:09 < kanzure> hm.
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07:12 < kanzure> delinquentme: dingo: you two are going to have to resolve your irc naming differences like gentlemen, with shellcode.
07:14 < kanzure> fred wilson can't spell marc andreessen.
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07:31 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin-satoshi/ning-users-p2pfoundation-2013-05-19.pdf
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10:24 < kanzure> pipcache docker data volume container http://blog.ananelson.com/2014/03/docker-isolated-and-reproducible/
10:24 < kanzure> but since the same doesn't apply for apt, you might as well just use squid for both apt and pip anyway, instead of a separate pipcache container
10:26 < kanzure> dingo: hmm also i'm worried about git-based entries in requirements.pip
10:27 < kanzure> i guess i'd need a git caching proxy as well... hrm.
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10:45 < dingo> yes i use download-cache
10:46 < dingo> you know more about proxies than me, but i wouldn't be suprised if it wouldn't require some fine tuning, that all the HTTP-last-modified and etc. headers wouldn't work against you
10:46 < dingo> apt certainly caches, hell, the tool is called apt-cache hehe
10:47 < dingo> you could certainly do some apt folder integration on shared filesystems
10:49 < dingo> git-based entries in requirements.pip is most certainly a problem for caching, absolutely
10:50 < dingo> man i got these chickens across the river
10:51 < dingo> coyote or something got a hold of one the other night
10:51 < dingo> woke me right out of bed, terrible bawking death screams
10:51 < dingo> there was some kind of bird in michigan that sounded like a lady screaming
10:51 < kanzure> that sounds like an awesome bird
10:51 < dingo> screech owl maybe
10:51 < kanzure> so, i like the idea of using a docker data volume for a file-based cache for pip (and i guess apt too?), but it doesn't solve the git problem
10:52 < kanzure> since git is a problem for pip, npm, gem, etc., it would be nice to solve it in the same ways if possible
10:52 < kanzure> i think you can do transparent git proxying if you really have to
10:53 < kanzure> the one thing that would really help is skipping all these steps
10:53 < kanzure> filesystem snapshot in a tarball, no other installation procedures. just a snapshot of the post-installed state for every dependency.
10:53 < kanzure> and then any dependency that requires complex installation procedures should be fixed.
10:54 < kanzure> i have so declared.
10:54 < dingo> snapshots are pretty healthy
10:54 < kanzure> then you just extract each snapshot
10:55 < dingo> i really liked a continuous build of various branches off of git, incrementing build # and possibly commiting back into it some sort of stamp, like,
10:55 < kanzure> oh, why autocommit?
10:55 < kanzure> what did that do for you
10:55 < dingo> "my dependency was >=0.10.0, but at the time of this build, i got ==0.10.1999, so i will freeze my dependency of this particular package build to ==0.10.1999"
10:56 < dingo> well so when i install the package, that went through CI, it was tested exactly with 0.10.1999
10:56 < dingo> and i get a frozen dependency as such
10:57 < kanzure> oh, because of the ><= package version requests. bleh.
10:57 < dingo> it becomes a problem with long-reaching dependencies, say A->b->c->d, where 'A' is your own dependency you specify and control, but 3rd parties can have far-reaching "requests>=2.2", and some future date, requests 2.3 is released, and you go to deploy "what was in production" way back then, and you're not getting it, exactly
10:57 < kanzure> so.... a few thoughts.
10:58 < kanzure> i usually specify >version only because i am informing future-me that an update is okay
10:58 < kanzure> i almost never specify >version because i want my application to pick a new version on its own
10:58 < dingo> so i would allow all those dependencies to go, whatever they are, on a CI system, and after testing (And i prefer tests are executed on the *installed* package, if possible, even if it means 'packaging' the tests with, many problems in packaging not discovered by tests otherwise) -- and then after succesfull test; pip freeze, and commit that frozen requirements.pip back in
10:58 < dingo> updates are ok until they're not, just two weeks ago, setuptools released a minor-minor-patchlevel that happened to break a windows build
10:59 < kanzure> is there another use case for >version specs that i am missing
10:59 < dingo> so developers and CI get the latest of whatever the latest, but when building a frozen snapshot of "this package at this point in time", I prefer nothing but frozen == dependencies
10:59 < dingo> and such things make for a quick install, as you saw in the pip-accel manual and such
10:59 < kanzure> it's not like version specs are actually saving any amount of time downloading dependencies except maaybe in the case of host os apt packages already installed
10:59 < dingo> ahh i got furniture delivered, bbl
11:00 < kanzure> i don't think developers should get the latest of whatever
11:00 < kanzure> the developers should explicitly bump dependencies on their own
11:01 < kanzure> developers should be responsible for freezing.
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11:03 < dingo> real quick, your CI can do a git label at time of build too
11:03 < kanzure> true, ci should probably be responsible for doing new tags
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13:30 < kanzure> dear lazyweb, find me an appropriate klingon vs. saiyans debate http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProudWarriorRaceGuy
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14:52 < kanzure> .title https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5000
14:52 < yoleaux> Blacklist NOPs reserved for soft-fork upgrades by petertodd · Pull Request #5000 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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15:10 < kanzure> "Exploiting lawful intercept to wiretap the internet" https://www.blackhat.com/presentations/bh-dc-10/Cross_Tom/BlackHat-DC-2010-Cross-Attacking-LawfulI-Intercept-wp.pdf
15:12 < drethelin> kanzure it's not really a fair comparison since they're pretty different species
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15:13 < kanzure> "The question isn't really whether or not the current powers are trustworthy with your data. It's really whether every possible steward of your data is trustworthy over an arbitrarily long time-span."
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15:29 < kanzure> hmm "Melanie Swan is now Founder at Institute for Blockchain Studies."
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15:32 < kanzure> "My goal is to map the complete circuitry of the primate brain. I'm currently working on a complete mapping of all inter-areal connections, at the single axon level, in the mouse brain, using a new type of electron microscopy, which I believe will revolutionize our understanding of brain structure and function. "
15:32 < kanzure> stalk: shawn mikula
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15:33 < drethelin> what's this new type of electron microscopy?
15:33 < kanzure> volume electron microscopy
15:33 < kanzure> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?Db=pubmed&Cmd=DetailsSearch&Term=Mikula,+Shawn
15:34 < kanzure> "A proposal for a coordinated effort for the determination of brainwide neuroanatomical connectivity in model organisms at a mesoscopic scale."
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16:38 < jackybgood> paperbot http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6143/263.short
16:38 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1237966
16:39 < jackybgood> Thank you :)
16:40 < kanzure> hello jackybgood
16:41 < jackybgood> hi
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16:55 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFNmf9Plv7k
16:55 < yoleaux> Nantais & Hazendonk - Underside - YouTube
16:56 < dingo> that's not educashional
16:57 < dingo> i got the next week and a half off work
16:57 < dingo> hope to pick up all the bug fixes and feature requests for pexpect
16:57 < dingo> so if you look on stack overflow for pexpect, theres thousands of hits
16:58 < dingo> and we get a lot of github issues that are really just like, support requests
16:58 < dingo> not bugs, but "You're using it wrong"
16:58 < dingo> now i look at all such things as "bad documentation" bug in disguise
16:58 < dingo> some of them have said, "theres no mailing list so i didn' know where else to post"
16:58 < dingo> i wonder i a mailing list is a good idea or not, really
16:59 < dingo> it sounds good in theory, but other than us two maintainers, who is willing to help people
16:59 < dingo> people would just subscribe, post their one or two questions, get their answers, then ignore it
16:59 < dingo> what is there to discuss, its like 10 years old by now
17:00 < dingo> it does the job, and well, it has quirks, sure
17:01 < dingo> i think stack overflow is a fine place to ask
17:01 < kanzure> i am a little disappointed in current mailing list software
17:01 < dingo> or the python mailing list, i suppose
17:01 < kanzure> but compared to all the other options, who knows
17:01 < kanzure> also, it sounds like you need a basic "categorize all these thousand-few posts into a few buckets for me" tool
17:01 < kanzure> "what is there to discuss" hah
17:02 < dingo> it would be nice to find out of thse thousands of SO questions related to pexpect, what are the most common problems people have
17:02 < kanzure> well, you can always go the route of upselling them ebooks and shit
17:02 < dingo> i could address them with a FAQ or documentation or examples
17:02 < dingo> hahaha thats true
17:02 < dingo> i could write a "programming with pexpect" book lol
17:02 < kanzure> "come to my super important pexpect conference"
17:02 < dingo> answer all questions with "That's addressed in my book! on page <X>"
17:03 < kanzure> right
17:04 < kanzure> who are most of your users?
17:04 < dingo> usually sysadmins or test software authors of one kind or another
17:04 < kanzure> users locked on various platforms/situations where they must use pexpect? so ancient business cruft?
17:04 < dingo> some people build web interfaces for old mainframes or some such, and use pexpect to pair them together
17:04 < dingo> a recent issue, this guy built a web interface for a ssh/serial proxy, where you ssh somewhere to get serial access to something
17:05 < dingo> they can never show the code when they have problems, thats a problem of its own
17:05 < kanzure> alright these people have money for sure
17:05 < kanzure> either their own or they have a budget for work
17:06 < dingo> i think i could quit any job, work full-time maintaining pexpect and other python projects, and simply sell support/small-job contracts related to it, i'm sure of it, by the looks of the audience
17:06 < kanzure> "40720 downloads in the last month"
17:06 < kanzure> hmm.
17:06 < kanzure> that's certainly not a trickle
17:08 < kanzure> i recommend the ebook angle first
17:08 < kanzure> because that way if you get any bites, you don't have to dump all of your hours into it
17:08 < dingo> yeah i'll keep it in mind
17:08 < kanzure> lotta overhead with negotiating contracts
17:09 < dingo> vova, cindy, kartick, denissov (whom i dont think you met), nearly half my coworkers at some point have said "you should write a book about python"
17:10 < kanzure> about *python*? why
17:10 < dingo> no idea
17:10 < dingo> i haven't even read the python cookbook, but david beazily's talks are fantastic
17:10 < dingo> i'm pretty sure that's already done
17:11 < dingo> if i did anything, i'd do richard steven's "advanced unix programming" book, updated, using python/C
17:11 < kanzure> i should write down my complaints about package managers into the form of a specification
17:11 < kanzure> before i forget to do anything about it
17:11 < dingo> i'd like to see all languages be able to adopt the same schemantics
17:11 < dingo> i'd like to use apt-get, or pip, or npm, i don't really care *what*, but i'd like to use it for all packages of all languages
17:12 < kanzure> it's too bad that python is so bad at importing different versions of the same library, too
17:12 < dingo> or i'd like to see them all be able to build .deb, .rpm, .msi, etc. packages anyway
17:12 < kanzure> why can't i have v1 and v2 loaded? (unless they have side effects on each other. but most don't.)
17:12 < dingo> yeah python doesn't handle deep dependencies well
17:12 < dingo> if a->b->c and d->e->c, and e's version dependency is different than b's of c
17:12 < dingo> then its "last one wins"
17:12 < kanzure> npm has it almost right, except i don't think you can ask for a specific version when asking require() (not sure)
17:12 < dingo> so in that order, whichever version of c that 'e' wants, is what 'b' will also get
17:13 < kanzure> var jsfoo = require('jsfoo', 'version'); // this would be an okay thing
17:13 < kanzure> i believe that there are lots of egg2deb things
17:13 < kanzure> and gem2deb stuff. fpm probably does it, but i mean tools other than fpm..
17:15 < kanzure> i'm not sure what the full set of principles should be,
17:15 < kanzure> it's something like:
17:15 < kanzure> 1) always cache everything
17:16 < kanzure> 2) never waste of my time as a developer, like waiting for downloads of the same thing i've already downloaded at least once before
17:16 < kanzure> 3) at minimum, transparently handle http, https, git+https, git+ssh
17:17 < kanzure> 4) should work on my host box, guest VMs, chroots, docker containers, virtualenvs, everywhere
17:17 < kanzure> 5) should gracefully handle collaborative teams that each may or may not be using this system (not sure; maybe it's okay to demand they all install this monster)
17:18 < kanzure> 6) should be easy to deploy the same sort of system into production environments, or staged CI building areas, or for network-accessible development across a team
17:19 < kanzure> if i'm being paid $400/hour, for every 5 minutes of package downloading that i've already done and 5 mnutes of package installation, that's $40 not counting the impact on my sanity or peace of mind
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17:19 < kanzure> (and then multiply that out over an entire dev team... it's a big cost.)
17:20 < kanzure> uh i meant $66
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17:22 < kanzure> *minutes
17:23 < kanzure> that's easily the $20k-$35k/mo range for a team of 10 at $100/hour
17:23 < kanzure> *easily in the
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18:18 < kanzure> jrayhawk_: is there an asynchronous mode for apt-get
18:20 < jrayhawk_> In which regard?
18:20 < kanzure> i often see the downloads occurring one at a time
18:21 < jrayhawk_> apt-get update parallelizes downloads by default
18:21 < kanzure> okay then
18:21 < jrayhawk_> not sure about install/upgrade; i am usually only working with one server at a time anyway, so there's nothing to parallelize
18:24 < jrayhawk_> i guess i could see spinning off preemptive HEADS to fail more quickly on missing packages
18:24 < jrayhawk_> HEADs
18:26 < kanzure> my bigest issue is that i end up in "strange" environments (like in a docker container or a docker container inside of a virtualbox vm) where i end up running apt-get/pip/npm again and again each time because of teardowns in some situations
18:27 < kanzure> there are ways to speed up docker container constructions so that you don't always have to fetch dependencies every time you make a change (just move the most-often-changing stuff to the end of your dockerfile), but it still happens anyway if you switch branches in git etc
18:28 < kanzure> so i'm using this hacky mtime solution for the docker container scenario, so that docker wont cache invalidate itself.. but that's dumb too, because sometimes i'm building the very same container, except in a vm this time :jazz hands:
18:31 < kanzure> *local vm this time
18:32 < kanzure> (also: assume that i am not proxying to my host's $DOCKER_HOST from my local vm, for the scenarios where i am using a local vm)
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19:39 < kanzure> someone babbling about bitcoin to canadian government people http://hocca.wmod.llnwd.net/a4502/e2/20141008161400_9692_983.wmv
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20:55 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUNGFZDO8mM&t=3m10s
20:55 < yoleaux> Andreas M. Antonopoulos educates Senate of Canada about Bitcoin (Oct 8, ENG) - YouTube
20:56 < kanzure> andreas is a bit on the sloppy side in terms of subtleties with bitcoin.. but has a rabid fanbase that puts him in these situations.
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20:57 < justanotheruser> I don't trust most of what he says. His presentations indicate he doesn't understand btw.
20:57 < justanotheruser> *btc
20:57 < justanotheruser> or at least distributed consensus.
20:59 < kanzure> yep
21:00 < kanzure> there will be more like him, dunno what to say
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21:48 < kanzure> haha "Or, you know, basic income. Why is the answer to "there are no jobs anymore" always "well, I guess you can starve, then"?"
21:49 < drethelin> probably because scarcity
21:50 < kanzure> that's often not the argument against basic income
21:50 < drethelin> sure
21:51 < drethelin> but it's at the core of the objections to a lot of liberal notions
21:51 < drethelin> even if it's not strictly true
21:51 < drethelin> EG food is not really scarce in america
21:51 < drethelin> but the intuitional difference between "why should anyone starve" and "if you don't work,  you don't eat" I think comes down to scarcity
21:52 < kanzure> did you get your website thingy working?
21:53 < drethelin> people are working on it, though probably not til tomorrow
21:55 < kanzure> entire peoples?
21:59 < drethelin> well they're probably doing other things with their time also
21:59 < drethelin> so not entire
22:00 < kanzure> partial peoples..
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22:08 < Viper168> chimeras
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22:18 < ebowden> paperbot http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/09/29/1321637111
22:18 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Solid-to-fluidlike%20DNA%20transition%20in%20viruses%20facilitates%20infection.pdf
22:20 < ebowden> \:D/
22:20 < ebowden> It worked!
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--- Log closed Thu Oct 09 00:00:04 2014