--- Log opened Tue Oct 21 00:00:22 2014
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04:37 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (4 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | not intentionally unrepeatable
04:37 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Fri Jun  6 17:48:33 2014]
04:37 [Users ##hplusroadmap]
04:37 [ altersid  ] [ Daeken     ] [ JayDugger      ] [ sivoais      ] 
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04:37 -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010
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07:50 < kanzure> .to fenn "The scarcity of consumer goods, in fact, helped promote of ubiquitous fix-it (*remont*) shops for small appliances wherever I walked in Moscow; try to find their counterpart in the capitals of the throwaway West."
07:50 < yoleaux> kanzure: I'll pass your message to fenn.
07:51 < kanzure> http://communicationnation.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/design-philosophy-of-ak-47.html
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08:05 < JayDugger> "Dr. Catsby Food Bowl for Whisker Relief?"
08:06 < JayDugger> 1) use a small plate, 2) use a saucer, 3) use a paper towel, 4) feed smaller portions
08:07 < kanzure> i think his point was that he wasn't aware the whiskers were a problem
08:09 < JayDugger> I think he's imagining the whiskers are a problem, or at worst, his sample size of 1 cat led him to overestimate the problem's frequency.
08:14 < kanzure> i wonder if whiskers are really a problem there
08:17 < JayDugger> Not in my experience, but I am not a cat.
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09:34 < kanzure> "Looking through their filed patents, it looks like their main innovation is a HMD device that uses a high speed digital zone plate that is used to focus/diverge light to form images at different depths. They have a paired high-speed mask LCD that blocks off parts of the images based on a z-buffer and finally a conventional imaging device (LCD/LCos/etc) that displays the left and right eye images. The zone plate and mask run 12X times the ...
09:34 < kanzure> ... frame rate of the imaging device, which runs at 30 or 60Hz. The result is that the users sees 12 frames (rather portions of a single frame) focuses at different depth levels for every image displayed bucketed by the z-buffer values in the image."
09:34 < kanzure> from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8486801
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09:35 < superkuh> Cool.
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09:50 < nmz787_i1> superkuh: mfg got back to me, but only to ask what uF and voltage (replied 2Uf 2kV)... they also said they didn't MKP52 right now
09:51 < superkuh> Ah well. Like suggested, there's always microwave oven caps and a beefy power supply to deal with the bleeders.
09:51 < nmz787_i1> superkuh: they also said it's some holiday there now, and they won't reply again til next monday
09:52 < nmz787_i1> but the FMD52 are the AC ones anyhow
09:52 < nmz787_i1> so that is what they seem to still be making
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10:20 < fenn> great, i will just move to moscow and be a 3d printer repairman
10:20 < yoleaux> 14:50Z <kanzure> fenn: "The scarcity of consumer goods, in fact, helped promote of ubiquitous fix-it (*remont*) shops for small appliances wherever I walked in Moscow; try to find their counterpart in the capitals of the throwaway West."
10:21 < kanzure> soviet scientists are still super cheap to hire, right?
10:21 < fenn> in soviet russia
10:22 < fenn> which no longer exists
10:22 < fenn> um, actually the scientists were the highest "paid" of all
10:22 < kanzure> but their scientists didn't just do or anything
10:22 < kanzure> *die or anything
10:22 < kanzure> they're still around, just doing .. different stuff.
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10:23 < fenn> take a look at the energia website http://www.buran-energia.com/boutique-shop/?language=en
10:23 < fenn> yes those are the scientists who designed and launched an orbiting laser cannon, selling t-shirts and coffee mugs
10:24 < kanzure> perfect
10:24 < fenn> (aforementioned laser cannon) http://www.buran-energia.com/polious/polious-desc.php
10:24 < kanzure> world's so fucking broken
10:24 < kanzure> oh look they accept paypal
10:25 < fenn> buran was a terrible idea, buy only because the space shuttle was a terrible design
10:26 < fenn> they actually had better designs but were ordered to make an imitation shuttle instead
10:27 < fenn> oh look you can buy pieces of it
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10:48 < superkuh> I wonder how Magic Leap's device would handle the chromatic aberration of a zone plate lens. In VR HMD with a static set of lenses they can render the image to correct for it. But they'd need to apply different corrections to the display image for each optical depth.
10:49 < superkuh> And chromatic aberration is a lot worse with zone plates than refractive lenses.
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11:11 < fenn> doesnt it also need 12X the power to run, or conversely has 1/12 the contrast ratio of a system without a focus modulator layer
11:12 < fenn> i can't imagine needing more than 3 layers anyway
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11:21 < fenn> i'd rather have a plenoptic light field display
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11:31 < fenn> "Magic Leap and Weta Workshop are collaborating on a truly next-generation Dr. Grordbort’s first person shooter on a world-changing new platform in an effort to defend Earth from robotic overthrow"
11:31 < fenn> wow, that deserves $500m fer sure
11:32 < kanzure> maybe if you're snarky enough they will see the errors of your ways and grant you unlimited funding
11:32 < fenn> doesn't it seem like a lot of money?
11:33 < fenn> even assuming the thing does what it claims
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11:41 < fenn> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deI1IzbveEQ
11:41 < yoleaux> NVIDIA's Light-field Glasses Prototype demo @ Siggraph 2013 - YouTube
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11:56 < chris_99> interesting video
11:56 < yoleaux> 05:34Z <nmz787> chris_99: http://www.reddit.com/r/opencv/ has some good links, been reading through SIFT and a few others on here http://aishack.in/category/computer-vision/
11:56 < chris_99> ah cheers nmz787
11:57 < kanzure> .g site:youtube.com siggraph 2014
11:57 < yoleaux> http://www.youtube.com/user/ACMSIGGRAPH
11:57 < kanzure> uh, i meant "will see the errors of their ways", not your ways :)
11:58 < fenn> i'm not a fan of steampunk i guess
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12:44 < fenn> "Think of it: A bunch of geniuses with the bodies of jocks each crafting superweapons in his basement to toss against his immediate neighbors (because they were bred for strength and smarts, but not cooperation) or spending too much time indoors reading and/or lifting weights to build a functioning society (because the Chief Eugenicist went a little overboard with the introversion)"
12:45 < fenn> http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/019/928/Steroids.jpg
12:57 < kanzure> .wik face of boe
12:57 < yoleaux> "The Face of Boe is a fictional character in the British science fiction television series Doctor Who. Not portrayed on-screen by an actor, the Face of Boe is a wholly mechanical effect, resembling a gigantic human-like head with a weathered face and in place of hair, numerous tendrils which terminate in round pod-like structures." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_of_boe
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13:03 < Viper168> wait
13:03 < Viper168> doctor who isn't real?
13:05 < fenn> yes virginia168 there is a santa claus
13:06 < fenn> your little friends are wrong. they have been effected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. they think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds.
13:07 < kanzure> 12:26 < hearn> http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/838 - not exactly bitcoin related but still pretty amazing
13:07 < kanzure> 12:26 < hearn> 100x speedup for homomorphic encryption, when a GPU is in use
13:07 < kanzure> 12:26 < hearn> they used it to build a Bayesian spam filter that operates over encrypted messages
13:08 < fenn> .rot13 viagra
13:08 < yoleaux> ivnten
13:08 < fenn> mark as spam all messages containing 'ivnten'
13:14 < kanzure> i should throw together a bad blockchain idea generator before someone scoops me on that
13:14 < kanzure> {random_word} on ze blockchain
13:15 < fenn> or you could just do a blockchain idea generator and see what it generates
13:15 < fenn> .g ideonomy
13:15 < yoleaux> http://ideonomy.mit.edu/
13:15 < kanzure> "Technical Consultant"
13:15 < kanzure> 404s :)
13:16 < archels> http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/wind/norway-wants-to-be-europes-battery
13:20 < superkuh> "When the power-reversal scheme interrupts the circuit, the converters use subsea electrodes at either shore to feed the return currents across the strait through the water. "
13:21 < fenn> i didn't get that either
13:21 < fenn> is it just bleeding off inductance?
13:22 < fenn> the ocean is just a snubber resistor
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13:33 < kanzure> .title https://www.mitre.org/publications/technical-papers/presentation-extreme-privilege-escalation-on-windows-8uefi-systems
13:33 < yoleaux> Presentation: Extreme Privilege Escalation On Windows 8/UEFI Systems | The MITRE Corporation
13:33 < kanzure> oh. link was okay.
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13:37 < kanzure> http://counterparty.io/news/counterparty-community-update-oct-2014/
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13:41 < nmz787_i1> "SCs normally reverse power flow by reversing a line’s current, whereas classic HVDC converters must flip the line’s voltage polarity."
13:42 < nmz787_i1> I don't understand that... doesn't changing the polarity mean a change in current direction?
13:43 < nmz787_i1> 'Sending current through seawater can corrode subsea infrastructure such as natural gas pipelines, but here, the dose makes the poison. “They can accept even 2,000 amps for up to 2 hours. So for a short pulse, it’s no problem,”'
13:43  * nmz787_i1 waits for fish to die
13:43 < fenn> free fish for everyone
13:44 < nmz787_i1> I guess fish would be more resistive than sea water
13:44 < fenn> they'd still die
13:49 < kanzure> hm this presentation is much more elaborate than i expected
13:50 < nmz787_i1> some guys from sec dept here did a talk on uefi at defcon
13:51 < nmz787_i1> err
13:51 < nmz787_i1> that is from defcon
13:51 < fenn> mitre presente at defcon?
13:51 < kanzure> (public) bitlicense responses https://www.coinprices.io/articles/industry-response-to-bitlicense-guidelines
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13:52 < nmz787_i1> oh, i guess theirs was on secureboot from windows 8
13:52 < nmz787_i1>  https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-22/dc-22-speakers.html#Bulygin
13:53 < nmz787_i1> https://media.blackhat.com/us-13/us-13-Bulygin-A-Tale-of-One-Software-Bypass-of-Windows-8-Secure-Boot-Slides.pdf
13:54 < fenn> secure boot is fine as long as there's a guaranteed way around it
13:55 < fenn> until one day they remove the off switch
13:55 < fenn> .g tivoisation
13:55 < yoleaux> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization
13:56 < kanzure> fenn: someone should scheme up a joint eff/nra thing for homebrew cmos fabrication because <insert nsa paranoia stuff here> and <insert ic fab paranoia here>
13:57 < fenn> but guns dont have cmos backdoors (yet
13:57 < kanzure> on the bright side, they already might
13:57 < kanzure> .g drm gun backdoor nra
13:57 < yoleaux> http://www.factcheck.org/2013/12/no-back-door-gun-control/
13:57 < kanzure> .g "drm" gun backdoor nra
13:57 < yoleaux> http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/05/09/u-s-gun-lobby-opposes-safety-equipped-guns/
13:58 < nmz787_i1> fenn: i'm pretty sure an admin can turn off secureboot completely at will, the point is for non-admin to not be able to do that
13:58 < nmz787_i1> i was thinking recently that most likely a bullet could kill a bacteria
13:58 < nmz787_i1> maybe a few at a time
13:58 < kanzure> "But not to the right-wing gun lobby. No, they fear that this is the first step on the road to the government controlling all the guns, for, supposedly, smart-gun technology could enable the U.S. Gubbmint to stop ALL the guns from firing, eliminating our God-given right to have a lethal weapon.  And so we have the weird situation in which the gun lobby not only opposes new kinds of guns, but also threatens those gun dealers who sell them."
13:58 < kanzure> perfect
13:58 < jrayhawk_> Yeah, being able to disable it is part of the requirements, though the certification process doesn't test for it AFAIK
13:59 < fenn> sort of a continuation of the missile defence/feminist superweapon thought from yesterday
13:59 < nmz787_i1> i see folks running ubuntu when I walk around here... so hopefully that means everything is OK as far as free-computing
14:00 < fenn> a hardware switch to disable secureboot would work for me
14:00 < fenn> but that would add $0.05 to the cost
14:01 < nmz787_i1> probably more realistically, since they'd need to add a new pinout from the chip package too or something
14:02 < fenn> and that would add $0.05 to the cost
14:02 < nmz787_i1> hah
14:03 < nmz787_i1> that'd be like weeks of work probably
14:03 < nmz787_i1> and reviews and more reviews of the process
14:03 < fenn> not my fault they didnt think of it first
14:03 < archels> there are plenty of bull-goose gun loonies, but you have to admit, placing a fingerprint scanner on a gun or coupling it with a smartwatch is the dumbest thing ever
14:03 < nmz787_i1> probably some security concern that keeps it out
14:04 < nmz787_i1> (unless we're both wrong and that already exists)
14:04 < nmz787_i1> seems like a wrist strap like treadmills have might work OK
14:04 < fenn> 'might work OK' is not what you want to hear about a piece of survival equipment
14:05 < nmz787_i1> someone steals the gun from your hand, the pin attached to the string attached to your wrist pulls out, gun won't fire
14:05 < nmz787_i1> well,  'OK' in that it's annoying to need a wrist strap
14:05 < nmz787_i1> doesn't work for concealed carry
14:05 < nmz787_i1> well at least
14:05 < fenn> the impetus for this is to prevent people from stealing the gun and using it for crimes or accidents
14:05 < nmz787_i1> i guess if it was a gold chain it could be jewelry
14:06 < fenn> presumably the rightful owner is smart enough to not shoot himself in the face on accident
14:06 < archels> it also creates a false sense of security
14:06 < fenn> this is what i consider a "smart gun" http://tracking-point.com/
14:07 < fenn> fire control computer system based on actual input data about what it's pointing at
14:07 < nmz787_i1> some sensor tech seems like it could work
14:09 < archels> neat
14:09 < nmz787_i1> fenn: that is very neat
14:10 < nmz787_i1> hah
14:10 < nmz787_i1> wow, like 8X the price of a 'dumb' AR
14:10 < fenn> huh apparently there's an interferometer measuring the barrel flex
14:11 < nmz787_i1> it has WiFi
14:11 < nmz787_i1> wtf is that for?
14:11 < nmz787_i1> oh, must be the glasses
14:11 < fenn> saving recorded video and link to the HUD
14:12 < nmz787_i1> 'You can shoot from completely protected positions behind trees or around corners when it’s necessary to remain unexposed to the target.'
14:12 < nmz787_i1> 'Collaborative shooting and mentoring'
14:13 < nmz787_i1> someday it might only be fair for opposing fighters to share each others video links
14:13 < nmz787_i1> link in the old split-screen game days
14:14 < fenn> green on blue
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14:47 < drethelin> nmz that's what the honor system is for
14:47 < drethelin> if your friend is screen watching you have to yell at them
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14:49 < superkuh> paperbot: http://proceedings.spiedigitallibrary.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=1903723
14:49 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1117%2F12.2061547
14:54 < justanotheruser> paperbot http://hbr.org/2009/12/the-innovators-dna/ar/1
14:54 < justanotheruser> paperbot: http://hbr.org/2009/12/the-innovators-dna/ar/1
14:54 < justanotheruser> pls
14:54 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/7d9ae6739de3f843d9cf0bbcc3e636f4.txt
14:55 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/c04a23a5121e337dac1160e17906c005.txt
14:59 < fenn> justanotheruser: DNA is not a metaphor, it actually exists.
14:59 < nmz787_i1> paperbot: http://hbr.org/product/the-innovator-s-dna/an/R0912E-PDF-ENG
15:00 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/a86e5f75f3951086e624028f1614ab3e.txt
15:00 < fenn> i doubt paperbot has access to "harvard business review" anyway
15:00 < kanzure> in fact, paperbot is an avid reader of harvard business review and other fine periodicals
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15:01 < nmz787_i1> superkuh: does the libgen link work?
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15:03 < fenn> justanotheruser: that paper would have been much more interesting if they did statistical analysis on the genomes of the 25 innovative entrepreneurs instead
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15:04 < fenn> tho 25 or even 3000 is probably not a big enough sample to draw meaningful conclusions
15:04 -!- |c| [~|d|@ip68-107-37-158.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:04 < nmz787_i1> that paper mentions http://www.mcnpvised.com/visedtraining/penelope/penelope0.pdf      https://www.oecd-nea.org/science/pubs/2009/nea6416-penelope.pdf (which seems to have become https://www.oecd-nea.org/science/docs/2011/nsc-doc2011-5.pdf) and this one looks fun too http://www.slac.stanford.edu/grp/arb/tn/arbvol5/AARD459.pdf
15:06 < sheena> nmz787: ever heard of using OCR on a video?
15:06 < yoleaux> 05:15Z <kanzure> sheena: http://imgur.com/a/8DfqE
15:07 < yoleaux> 05:33Z <nmz787> sheena: why not just use a small plate?
15:07 < kanzure> yes you can ocr each frame
15:07 < kanzure> there's a way to dump frames from a video
15:07 < kanzure> each frame would be an image
15:07 < sheena> does software already exist for this?
15:08 < superkuh> nmz787, no. Nor entering the DOI manually.
15:08 < sheena> i imagine you would be best served by finding 4 identical frames in a row (or 40, or whatever threshold), and picking one of them to OCR, then repeating
15:08 < sheena> imagining a video of a book, with pages turning
15:08 < fenn> it's hard to get a good image from a moving page
15:08 < kanzure> ffmpeg -i video.mp4 -r 1 -f image2 image-%3d.jpg
15:08 < kanzure> this will generate image-00x.png files
15:09 < fenn> unless you just mean someone turning pages by hand with a delay between page turns
15:09 < nmz787_i1> sheena: I was doing all of that via python recenty (though not combining the two ideas, video and ocr)
15:10 < sheena> nmz787_i1: do you have codes and things you would share?
15:10 < sheena> fenn: by hand with a delay, yes
15:10 < nmz787_i1> sheena: I think I was using pytesseract for OCR (more details in the logs of this channel)
15:10 < sheena> i turn on camera and set up tripod, and just sit and flip the book slowly
15:10 < nmz787_i1> sheena: yeah not right now though, when I get home
15:10 < sheena> but faster than scanning by a long shot
15:11 < fenn> that's how they do it at google
15:11 < sheena> ive looked at tesseract in general before
15:11 < sheena> fenn: video you mean? or tesseract?
15:11 < nmz787_i1> i remember one of the image formats (TIFF vs PNG I think) worked 100% better than the other
15:11 < fenn> there's a special spring loaded book holder to keep the pages flat and perpendicular to the two overhead cameras
15:11 < nmz787_i1> which was unexpected
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15:12 < fenn> i dont know if there's a button or what
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15:12 < fenn> occasionally you'll see fingers in google books
15:12 < nmz787_i1> sheena: here's some code for getting the video camera frames (and then displaying to screen, but you'd need to save as [TIFF I think] then push to tesseract) http://stackoverflow.com/a/26457671/253127
15:13 < sheena> fenn:  cooll
15:13 < nmz787_i1> sheena: what OS are you on?
15:13 < sheena> lubuntu 14.04
15:14 < nmz787_i1> cool, should be easy to install opencv (libopencv I think) and wxPython if you wanted a GUI
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15:14 < sheena> i wonder if i need OCR
15:14 < fenn> opencv is probably overkill for this task
15:14 < nmz787_i1> if you want the text to be searchable
15:14 < kanzure> opencv does ocr?
15:14 < nmz787_i1> no
15:14 < nmz787_i1> but it gets camera frames quite easily
15:14 < sheena> if i can just pull the page image frames as png/tiff, and pdf into an ebook.... but no search and no text-to-audio option
15:14 < nmz787_i1> and can de-skew if needed also quite easily
15:15 < fenn> sheena you may want to look into djvu
15:15 < kanzure> yeah what's the level of ocr needed here, sheena?
15:15 < kanzure> like 1 million pages of text vs 10 ?
15:15 < sheena> books of 100 pages
15:16 < fenn> also are there pictures?
15:16 < sheena> some ya
15:16 < sheena> so just exporting video to image/pdf might be better, then could ocr from there if needed in some of the cases?
15:16 < fenn> i have no idea
15:16 < fenn> i could never get open source OCR software to work right
15:17 < sheena> im (of course for personal use only) lookig to make ebook copies of some books that aren't available in ebook versions..
15:17 < sheena> some of the books are self published or done by small publishers..
15:17 < sheena> and.. i want to be able to read them digitally, for my own personal entertainment
15:17 < sheena> heh
15:17 < kanzure> fenn, nmz787_i1 claims that pytesseract is much better than it was
15:17 < nmz787_i1> fenn: I was able to get tesseract to work nicely
15:18 < nmz787_i1> fenn:  the key was changing the input file format (which seemed quite strange to me)
15:18 < nmz787_i1> sheena: opencv can save uncompressed TIFF files
15:18 < nmz787_i1> so dumping video to tiff would be super easy
15:18 < nmz787_i1> prob like 10 lines of pythoin
15:19 < nmz787_i1> figuring out when to take a pic would be more work (i.e. only when the frame is not moving (the page isn't turning))
15:19 < sheena> how to do the "dont save every frame, just the different/good ones" part?
15:19 < sheena> yeah. that.
15:19 < nmz787_i1> should be a matter of diff-ing subsequent frames till there is no/minimal diff
15:20 < sheena> diffing?
15:20 < nmz787_i1> in new python opencv bindings images are just numpy arrays
15:20 < fenn> subtracting the pixel values
15:20 < kanzure> well text in a video usually lasts for multiple frames
15:20 < nmz787_i1> so you can do array subtraction (diff-ing)
15:20 < kanzure> so if you ocr one frame and then another, you usually get different results if the frames were different
15:20 < kanzure> and then you hvae to diff text n' stuff i think
15:21 < sheena> what about the stuff that detects motion?
15:21 < sheena> like, lots of cameras for wildlife only record/display the parts where there is motion
15:21 < nmz787_i1> sheena: that's what subtracting images would do
15:21 < fenn> kanzure: actually that's a good way to automatically detect OCR errors
15:21 < fenn> since you know the underlying text hasn't changed
15:21 < nmz787_i1> sheena: I say get opencv installed and fire up python and start playing
15:22 < sheena> so i'm doing; if frame 2 - frame 1 == 0, frames 1 and 2 are identical?
15:22 < nmz787_i1> sheena: lots of sample code in the opencv repo/source https://github.com/Itseez/opencv/tree/master/samples/python2
15:22 < sheena> (concept, not specific example)
15:22 < nmz787_i1> sheena: exactly
15:22 < sheena> ok
15:22 < nmz787_i1> and with the images being numpy arrays, that operation is pretty much just that easy
15:22 < fenn> there's a package in ubuntu called 'motion' which is designed for detecting movement in webcam security cameras
15:23 < nmz787_i1> you might need to check how many non-zero values there are relative to total pixel count
15:23 < nmz787_i1> so you can get % difference
15:23 < nmz787_i1> sheena: motion is also pretty good and easy to get setup
15:23 < sheena>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzRGp3nc8Tw relevant?\
15:23 < kanzure> .title
15:23 < yoleaux> Motion detection in OpenCV - YouTube
15:23 < nmz787_i1> idk if there are python bindings to play/interact with it though
15:23 < fenn> Motion is a program that monitors the video signal from one or more cameras and is able to detect if a significant part of the picture has changed.
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15:24 < sheena> sudo apt-get motion ?
15:25 < nmz787_i1> sheena: googling motion detection example opencv provides lots of decent looking examples
15:25 < nmz787_i1> sheena: something like that
15:25 < nmz787_i1> (re apt-get)
15:26 < fenn> sudo apt-get install motion
15:26 < sheena> oh jeesus
15:26 < sheena> its saving jpgs of me!! lol
15:26 < fenn> i've never actually used it either
15:27 < nmz787_i1> i've used it for security webcams from a server years ago, and also from a rasp-pi recently
15:27 < sheena> this is awesome but im not sure its best for this application lol
15:27 < sheena> cause i need it to be looking at a recorded video, not a camera.. off to read some man files
15:27 < nmz787_i1> sheena: you can probably bug jrayhawk_ about how to setup a loopback fom a video to a v4l device
15:28 < sheena> might have a function already for that
15:28 < sheena> but it may also be backwards to what i want.....
15:28 < fenn> is there actually an option to only record images with no motion? (i haven't found it yet if there is)
15:29 < nmz787_i1> fenn: as opposed to what?
15:29 < nmz787_i1> oh, 'no motion'
15:29 < nmz787_i1> hmm, yeah I guess that's the inverse!
15:29 < sheena>    motion_video_pipe string
15:29 < sheena>               Values: Max 4095 characters / Default: Not defined
15:29 < sheena>               The  video4linux  video loopback input device for motion images.
15:29 < sheena>               If a particular pipe is to be used then use the device  filename
15:29 < sheena>               of   this  pipe,  if  a  dash  '-'  is  given  motion  will  use
15:29 < sheena>               /proc/video/vloopback/vloopbacks to locate a free pipe. Default:
15:29 < sheena>               not set
15:29 < sheena> oops :(
15:29 < sheena> sorry
15:30 < sheena> but that looks like the "use afile instead of my webcam" thing
15:30 < nmz787_i1> yeah, you said you wanted to use a video file
15:31 < sheena>  on_event_end string    Values: Max 4095 characters / Default: Not defined   Command  to  be executed when an event ends after a period of no   motion. The period of no motion is defined by  option  gap.  You can use Conversion Specifiers and spaces as part of the command.
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15:31 < sheena> motion video pipe looks like it will let me put a file as input?
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15:32 < fenn> okay that's not what i would have called it
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15:34 < nmz787_i1> sheena: this is basic code that would just save images http://paste.pound-python.org/show/fRtaQrlb2rhuiibc2cAQ/
15:34 < nmz787_i1> 8 lines
15:34 < nmz787_i1> you can replace the VideoCapture with a call to open a video file instead
15:34 < fenn> don't save as jpg
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15:35 < nmz787_i1> yeah and that
15:35 < nmz787_i1> but you should be able to just change the file extension and it will use the correct imge encoder
15:35 < sheena> i need to pip instlal cv2?
15:35 < nmz787_i1> probably use apt-get
15:35 < nmz787_i1> sudo apt-cache search opencv
15:36 < nmz787_i1> there should be one main package that installs the rest
15:36 < sheena> python-opencv?
15:38 < nmz787_i1> my guess is something like libopencv
15:38 < nmz787_i1> or libcv
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15:39 < kanzure> it's possible that python-opencv will install opencv things in addition to the python bindings or python wrapper
15:39 < fenn> python-opencv is what you want
15:40 < sheena> call to open a video.. how do i find the 'man' for cv2 inside of python?
15:41 < nmz787_i1> sheena: http://docs.opencv.org/modules/highgui/doc/reading_and_writing_images_and_video.html#videocapture-videocapture
15:41 < nmz787_i1> sheena: idk how to use python help, sorry
15:41 < sheena> modules. thanks
15:41 < kanzure> help()
15:41 < kanzure> is how you use help in python
15:41 < nmz787_i1> kanzure: so like help(cv2) ?
15:41 < kanzure> yes
15:41 < nmz787_i1> huh
15:41 < kanzure> it just reads cv2.__doc__ for you
15:42 < fenn> it's not really a manual, just a list of what's in it (unless someone has specifically provided documentation that way)
15:43 < sheena> it does not like the syntax of that paste nmz787_i1 sent
15:46 < fenn> the if block shouldn't have that many levels of indentation
15:48 < fenn> how do i get my cursor back on screen #6 (i lost it)
15:49 < fenn> like there should be a white box where i'm entering text, but there is none
15:50 < fenn> i must have entered some terminal escape sequence on accident
15:50 < kanzure> you might have typed ctrl-s?
15:51 < fenn> gah now i have a split screen
15:51 < nmz787_i1> sheena: must be something with the copy-paste, spaces vs tabs or something like that
15:52 < sheena> okie
15:52 < nmz787_i1> sheena: ahh, fenn is right, everything after the ret, new_frame is indented one level too much
15:52 < nmz787_i1> whoops!
15:53 < fenn> ESC Pn p                        Cursor Visibility (97801)
15:54 < fenn> i have no idea what this means
15:55 < dingo> hehe you got questions on terminal control sequences, just let me know
15:55 < sheena> the code doesnt end. should it?
15:55 < sheena> like
15:55 < dingo> its \x1b[25l
15:55 < sheena> it does the jpg output stuff, butthen just... hangs?
15:55 < dingo> i know that off the top of my head
15:55 < dingo> give me something easier
15:55 < fenn> too late, i killed the window
15:55 < fenn> sheena: it was written as an infinite loop, that's all it does
15:55 < fenn> while True:
15:56 < sheena> ok
15:56 < sheena> so i can just kill it when its done?
15:56 < sheena> thats how it should work?
15:56 < fenn> yes
15:56 < nmz787_i1> ctrl-d or ctrl-c should end it
15:56 < sheena> i assume ther is no easy way to have it tell me when its done? can i just add break to the last line?
15:56 < dingo> even if you don't use python, you can use blessed to find the raw sequences for your TERM: http://github.com/jquast/blessed
15:57 < nmz787_i1> sheena: there is a way to tell if the file ended
15:57 < dingo> python -c 'import blessed; print repr(blessed.Terminal().cursor_hidden)' or something like that
15:57 < kanzure> if you know when it's done then you don't need to use "while True".
15:57 < kanzure> alternatively, you can break inside of the while loop when you know it's done (some api call, i assume)
15:58 < sheena> ok no worries
15:58 < nmz787_i1> sheena: the ret value will tell you if it's done
15:58 < kanzure> ah
15:58 < nmz787_i1> 'If no frames has been grabbed (camera has been disconnected, or there are no more frames in video file), the methods return false and the functions return NULL pointer.'
15:58 < sheena> so now i jut need to make a video of pages turning to test this properly
15:58 < sheena> iv'e tested it with a random AVI and it seems to work
15:59 < nmz787_i1> sheena: you'll need to do the subtraction too
15:59 < sheena> nmz787_i1: what is the ret value? (in simple explanation to satisfy my curiosity)
15:59 < sheena> oh, it's just getting each frame?
15:59 < sheena> this video has only 111 frames? that seems unlikely..
16:00 < nmz787_i1> sheena: ret should just be True or False, or True or None... something that indicates success of the read()
16:00 < nmz787_i1> sheena: looking at this now http://wiki.scipy.org/Tentative_NumPy_Tutorial#head-c5f4ceae0ab4b1313de41aba9104d0d7648e35cc
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16:01 < fenn> i'm assuming for each frame it's reinitializing the camera, and that takes time
16:02 < fenn> dingo: how do i type in a terminal control sequence at all? escape key doesn't seem to send an escape sequence
16:08 < fenn> this is what too many layers of screen and virtual terminals does to you http://fennetic.net/irc/input_out.mp3
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16:09 < kanzure> makes sense to me
16:10 < nmz787_i1> sheena: this may work to give you a percent motion estimate http://paste.pound-python.org/show/mv8YD0DDgrrvrHp5sq7v/
16:10 < nmz787_i1> sheena: oops, I meant to put a  break after the last print
16:11 < nmz787_i1> sheena: also that last print statement has a tab for indent which will break things, you need to change it to 4 spaces
16:11 < nmz787_i1> sheena: fixed http://paste.pound-python.org/show/s6TWwHGfR3V0WXTaUpNm/
16:11 < nmz787_i1> sheena: err, whoops, I didn't save the last_frame !
16:11 < sheena> do i have numpy?
16:12 < nmz787_i1> if you have cv2 then yes
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16:13 < fenn> how are tabs still a thing
16:13 < kanzure> they are input rotation
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16:13 < nmz787_i1> sheena: try this http://paste.pound-python.org/show/7fLTADIWJIxgHoUJCIdV/
16:13 < sheena> and does it not need frame and last_frame defined?
16:13 < nmz787_i1> sheena: sorry for overloading with wrong code
16:14 < nmz787_i1> sheena: ugh, once again there was a bug... the not should not be there
16:14 < nmz787_i1> http://paste.pound-python.org/show/qmXmTX7ntWsrMPiyzOUh/
16:14 < nmz787_i1> oh god
16:14 < nmz787_i1> i think i need to stop!
16:14 < fenn> what's last frame =
16:15 < nmz787_i1> http://paste.pound-python.org/show/f7pRougJBEVBVwWG9rNx/
16:15 < nmz787_i1> there
16:15  * nmz787_i1 back to work!
16:15 < fenn> yes sir
16:16 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8489954
16:16 < yoleaux> Introducing Consul Template | Hacker News
16:16 < sheena> ValueError: The truth value of an array with more than one element is ambiguous. Use a.any() or a.all()
16:17 < kanzure> confd recently implemented long-polling, which is way better than my implementation in pyconfd... but it's still only go templates. sooo. i might have to steal that feature and put it into pyconfd.
16:17 < kanzure> sheena: it's right, you know. basically use "if all(whatever):" instead of "if watever:". or you can use any() if you mean any() instead of all().
16:17 < nmz787_i1> sheena: what line?
16:18 < nmz787_i1> is it the if statement?
16:18 < sheena> yeah
16:18 < fenn> if last_frame is not None: maybe
16:18 < nmz787_i1> change to if last_frame is not None
16:18 < sheena> nod
16:18 < sheena> working
16:18 < sheena> i think
16:18 < sheena> doing things, anyway
16:19 < sheena> so now i need a test video, right? one that doesnt have constant motion
16:19 < nmz787_i1> sheena: you can also add a live video display easily http://docs.opencv.org/trunk/doc/py_tutorials/py_gui/py_image_display/py_image_display.html#display-an-image
16:20 < nmz787_i1> sheena: webcam should work with you just moving your head in front of it
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16:20 < fenn> my recommendation is to use as bright a light as possible, preferably a halogen or fluorescent
16:20 < nmz787_i1> sheena: if you want to use that video display, change waitKey(0) to something like waitKey(30)
16:21 < nmz787_i1> since 0 blocks until the user presses a key
16:21 < nmz787_i1> while 30 would display the image for 30 milliseconds before continuing processing code
16:24 < fenn> nmz787_i1: how would you detect/quantify motion blur in an arbitrary image?
16:24 < nmz787_i1> like only having a single image?
16:25 < sheena> thanks. i suddenly checked the time and have to go :( back later!!
16:25 < nmz787_i1> probably do edge detection from several directions and compare the signal strength
16:26 < nmz787_i1> sheena: hope you get something working!
16:26 < fenn> hm. "blur detection is actually a very active research field"
16:27 < fenn> paperbot: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org:80/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?reload=true&arnumber=1038902
16:27 < fenn> it's thinking
16:27 < kanzure> deep thought
16:27 < fenn> paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1109/ICIP.2002.1038902
16:28 < kanzure> heh paperbot should rate papers based on pretentious vocabulary or something
16:28 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/2a79a7e5e63276fd7ce0c34dc9708cca.txt
16:28 < fenn> unfortunately 99% of them would have losing scores
16:28 < nmz787_i1> fenn: pg 5 shows the edge and their derivatives http://www.cse.unr.edu/~bebis/CS791E/Notes/EdgeDetection.pdf
16:29 < nmz787_i1> this also has some stuff that might be interesting http://bit.kuas.edu.tw/~jihmsp/2010/vol1/JIH-MSP-2010-01-003.pdf
16:29 < nmz787_i1> they only have one graph that I like (the first)
16:31 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1109%2FICIP.2002.1038902
16:31 < fenn> maybe i shouldn't be using as my test case "videos of sand dunes filmed in dark conditions"
16:33 < fenn> though it is a valid use case
16:34 < fenn> i want to make 3d environment maps from waving a cellphone around, but it's hard to figure out which images are usable
16:35 < fenn> also high resolution "scanning" of architecture and the like
16:35 < nmz787_i1> fenn: that's been a project i've thought of a lot
16:35 < nmz787_i1> especially back when I was commanded to help build my campus in google sketchup
16:35 < fenn> if you just pan around at constant velocity all your images are equally blurred
16:36 < nmz787_i1> my idea was using people who biked around campus to collect data
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16:38 < fenn> yeah this has actually been done, see i think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ef-ofGocK4&list=PL39C03377F937DCCC&index=7
16:39 < fenn> gah stupid playlists
16:39 < fenn> should be Museum 01 Entrance Map Creation
16:40 < fenn> .title
16:40 < yoleaux> PTAMM: Museum 01 Entrance Map Creation - YouTube
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16:40 < fenn> wouldn't take long to do a low resolution map
16:41 < nmz787_i1> hmm
16:41 < kanzure> somewhat-elaborate terraform example https://github.com/18F/fec-infrastructure/blob/master/bootstrap/bootstrap.tf
16:41 < nmz787_i1> that doesn't seem to be in 3D space
16:42 < fenn> the building facade is mostly 2d (2.5d)
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16:44 < fenn> welcome, welcome, welcome
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16:45 < kanzure> man i'm glad i forgot about greeter bots
16:45 < fenn> the worst are the ones that spew a bunch of rules at you the instant you say something
16:47 < kanzure> hmm http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/using-network-security.html
16:48 < fenn> why am i reading a paper about edge detection
16:49 < kanzure> fenn: http://ourincrediblejourney.tumblr.com/
16:50 < fenn> kanzure: i don't care about that either?
16:51 < kanzure> it wasn't meant as news
16:51 < fenn> is it some kind of demotivational propaganda?
16:52 < kanzure> yes.. sort of.
16:52 < kanzure> mockery
16:53 < fenn> so the lesson here is ... don't use online startup services for anything important
16:53 < kanzure> basically.
16:53 < kanzure> and "throw users under a bus whenever you please"
16:53 < fenn> well i already learned that when microsoft bought out hotmail
16:53 < kanzure> how original
16:53 < fenn> it was actually original at the time
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16:55 < fenn> It also is about to acquire CompuServe, which earlier this week launched a Web-only service, dubbed "C."
16:56 < fenn> "The Microsoft acquisition of Hotmail is another great validation that Web-based email is here to stay," said Scott Chasin, USA.Net's chief technology officer. "Things will get very exciting in the coming year, as everyone is looking for a dance partner."
16:56 < fenn> shortly thereafter they deleted any accounts if you hadn't logged in for more than 1 month (!)
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17:05 < fenn> A company that can afford to pay millions for some new staff but not for what those staff built. This repeated pattern only encourages more people to create flashy services that have no hope of being sustainable businesses in their own right, but may survive long enough, with VC funding, to attract the attention of a large company eager for new ideas and staff.
17:05 < kanzure> "do whatever it takes to grow 5% every week"
17:08 < fenn> is that really a thing?
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17:08 < kanzure> http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html
17:08 < kanzure> yes it is a thing
17:08 < kanzure> hello maaku
17:08 < fenn> does it exist in reality?
17:08 < kanzure> they certainly claim it does
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17:08 < kanzure> maaku: i have stolen your words and claimed them as my own, be amused https://github.com/kanzure/bitcoin-incentives/blob/master/bitcoin-incentives.tex
17:10 < kanzure> fenn: companies like airbnb had to have had some non-zero growth rate to go from zero to $5B/year
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17:15 < fenn> i wonder what percentage of acqui-hires actually stick around for more than a year
17:16 < kanzure> depends on the contract
17:17 < fenn> well it seems like you usually get stock options after a year
17:17 < fenn> but then there's no incentive to stay
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17:20 < kanzure> 17:14 <@gwern> in any event, I'm not a chemist but more of a statistician/data-scientist, so I'm not sure what I would do with a spectrometer
17:21 < fenn> make sure your nootropics are what you think they are
17:24 < kanzure> nah let's wing it
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17:26 < fenn> ugh reading about "acqui-hire strategy" makes me sad
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17:26 < kanzure> hah
17:26 < kanzure> from their perspective though, acquisitions help you not die
17:27 < fenn> individuals who would choose a startup will likely never even consider applying at a large corporation. And even if they do apply, up to 90% will be rejected because they are found not to be a “corporate fit” somewhere during the recruiting process.
17:27 < fenn> ^quote
17:28 < fenn> "Eventually many will acclimate – just like anyone who moves into a new environment, over time most will eventually acclimate and even lose their dislike for the corporate world."
17:28 < kanzure> have you never read pg
17:28 < kanzure> how can this be
17:28 < fenn> of course i have, i read all of his essays once
17:28 < kanzure> another lifetime ago perhaps
17:28 < kanzure> which iteration is this cycle?
17:29 < fenn> i just think it's incredible that the corporate HR/hiring people acknowledge that their process is so broken it weeds out 90% of the people they are trying to recruit in the first place
17:29 < kanzure> oh, most of the people in the hr department don't really acknowledge that
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17:29 < kanzure> but the people who use the phrase "strategic partnerships" think about that, sure
17:30 < fenn> "strategic Talent Management solutions"
17:30 < kanzure> github is like the only startup doing fully remote
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17:31 < fenn> they have a batcave or whatever tho
17:31 < fenn> i was supposed to build some arcade consoles or something for them
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17:31 < kanzure> oh that's unfortunate
17:32 < kanzure> it's pretty weird how nobody has been able to pull off fully remote
17:32 < fenn> it was an interesting idea but my contact flaked out on me
17:32 < kanzure> they all get pressured by vc to get an office or something
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17:32 < fenn> it's rare for people to know how to a) collaborate effectively online, and b) keep track of who's doing what (if anything)
17:33 < kanzure> if you're not within 30 miles you don't exist
17:33 < fenn> strange how it's more acceptable to telework from nearby
17:33 < fenn> as if the extra millisecond of latency matters
17:35 < fenn> it's nice to have an office available to go to if you need it (to get away from family or distraction)
17:36 < fenn> that's hardly worth building a custom capital-hemorrhaging extravaganza for tho
17:36  * kanzure wonders why paperbot hasn't been into the office lately
17:36 < fenn> him and gradstudentbot are having a three-way with gnusha
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17:37 < fenn> .botsnack
17:37 < yoleaux> :D
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17:40 < fenn> i read paul graham, then studied lisp and fought a lot with foreign function interfaces and SLIME and decided maybe there was a slight mismatch between paul graham and reality
17:41 < kanzure> when was this
17:41 < kanzure> not sure if growth.html was new to you or not
17:42 < kanzure> http://googlescholar.blogspot.com/2014/10/caselaw-is-set-free-what-next.html
17:42 < fenn> august 2006 apparently
17:43 < kanzure> he has written many things since then heh
17:43 < kanzure> nearly all of his experience with fast-growing startups was after that
17:43 < kanzure> viaweb counts a bit but then there's the other 500 companies he managed
17:47 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2ijUU4CwzA
17:47 < kanzure> http://d2bx26666ysa1s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/BitGo-BitLicense-Comment-2014-10-21.pdf
17:47 < fenn> i think he was just starting what would become YC and doing angel investing
17:47 < kanzure> right.. 2006 was even pre reddit?
17:48 < fenn> what's reddit?
17:48 < fenn> 2006 sounds like a long time ago but it was only 3 years before i moved to the bay area..
17:49 < kanzure> in 2006 i was still stuck in high school
17:49 < fenn> somehow i managed to read all of his essays and think that "a startup" was just a small business in the software/technology space
17:50 < kanzure> i'm sure that his emphasis has become stronger in the past 8 years.
17:50 < fenn> i had no idea there was this huge game around it, attracting capital, "series A financing" etc
17:50 < kanzure> cheat book http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/venture-deals.pdf
17:51 < fenn> is this like "business school for dummies"
17:51 < kanzure> this is like "heuristics that you will eventually learn after doing everything wrong when fundraising"
17:54 < fenn> "only a small percentage of companies raise venture capital"
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17:55 < kanzure> that's true, the vast majority of businesses do not raise venture capital
17:56 < drethelin> our company was started with a credit card, dad likes to say
17:56 < kanzure> that was possibly not the best choice
17:56 < kanzure> was the credit card in his name?
17:56 < fenn> is it that hard to get a small business loan?
17:56 < kanzure> uh, yes?
17:56 < kanzure> you have to put up your 4th home as collateral or something
17:57 < kanzure> and then the interest rate is absurd
17:57 < fenn> doesnt it depend on the amount? i mean most credit cards dont go over $15k
17:57 < kanzure> hahah
17:57 < fenn> hard to find a worse rate than credit card interest
17:58 < kanzure> $50k credit is the normal limit i see around these parts
17:58 < drethelin> I think it varies a lot
17:58 < drethelin> plus it depends on what you can ask for
17:58 < kanzure> basically 1/3rd total annual cash salary
17:59 < drethelin> my current credit limit is like 2500 for some reason
17:59 < drethelin> on the card I get from my back
17:59 < drethelin> bank
17:59 < fenn> i have no category to file this book under :(
17:59 < drethelin> according to my room-mate he just had to go in and ask to get it raised
17:59 < dingo> yeah you have to ask for an increase
17:59 < dingo> you'll get one
17:59 < dingo> tell them you're buying furniture or some shit
18:00 < kanzure> mom spent a few years unable to find a $100k loan for her business
18:00 < dingo> i decided to stop playing the fucking game a while ago, recently bought a truck, and even though i didn't get a loan they still have to run your credit report for some new terrorist-tracking reason, and i got my credit score, its actually really fucking good, wtf
18:00 < kanzure> because they all wanted evidence of her personal salary (and she doesn't pay herself anything)
18:00 < dingo> i carry no CC's for years now
18:00 < kanzure> electricity companies sometimes report your bill payments to credit agencies
18:00 < fenn> terrorists need trucks
18:01 < fenn> and credit
18:01 < fenn> those bombs don't pay for themselves, son!
18:01 < kanzure> first they come for the terrorists, and then nobody was left to complete this joke
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18:02 < kanzure> pedophiles are constitutionally protected
18:02 < drethelin> kanzure how does she get money out of the company?
18:02 < drethelin> if she doens't pay herself anything?
18:02 < dingo> louis ck has a dark joke about pedophiles
18:02 < kanzure> she doesn't. she's not the smartest bear.
18:03 < kanzure> "i'm growing my company! 0.3% per year is growth, right?" (i don't know what the actual number is.)
18:03 < kanzure> (but it sounds low to me)
18:03 < fenn> you're supposed to write yourself an IOU for when you do make money in the future, and then it's counted as income for that year on your taxes (instead of one big lump which presumably has a higher tax rate)
18:04 < kanzure> 0.3% is less than what you can get on the stock market or something, geeze
18:04 < kanzure> might as well not bother with the company at all
18:05 < kanzure> that's even less than inflation
18:05 < fenn> but furniture appreciates over time, right?
18:05 < kanzure> i wonder if she realizes how awful that would be
18:05 < kanzure> she switched to cabinets
18:05 < kanzure> and sex furniture
18:05 < kanzure> which i really hope doesn't appreciate over time
18:05 < fenn> depends on who owned it
18:06 < kanzure> hey good point
18:06 < kanzure> that's looking on the bright side
18:06 < fenn> tell her to switch business models to renting furniture out to rock stars and selling it as a collector's item
18:06 < kanzure> she's not so good at the switching part, but i'll mention it
18:06 < fenn> i wasn't serious
18:07 < fenn> how can you not make money on cabinets
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18:07 < fenn> all that home renovation crap is ridiculously overpriced
18:08 < fenn> a new kitchen costs more than a new car
18:09 < kanzure> well, there's a bunch of ways that it can go wrong
18:09 < kanzure> i agree that these customers have big budgets
18:09 < kanzure> but it also turns out they are nag machines and you have to sue them frequently
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18:09 < fenn> has she heard of the 80/20 rule
18:09 < kanzure> i'm sure.
18:10 < fenn> so dump 20% of the customers; 80% of the problems go away
18:11 < kanzure> right.
18:11 < fenn> "we're overwhelmed with projects right now, but so and so is available and does quality work blah blah blah"
18:11 < kanzure> i could rant for hours about things that i think are going wrong, but i don't really want to
18:11 < kanzure> it's not even an industry that i would want to be involved in
18:11 < fenn> it's not even an industry
18:11 < drethelin> why does capitalism do such a bad job
18:12 < kanzure> and there has been no indication that she takes any of my advice ever, so there's also that
18:12 < kanzure> drethelin: because saving is required for capitalism to work
18:12 < fenn> saving?
18:12 < kanzure> hey that sounds almost insightful, go me!
18:12 < kanzure> yeah.
18:12 < fenn> explain
18:13 < kanzure> hoarding money.
18:13 < kanzure> not losing it on the market in an attempt to flee inflation
18:13 < kanzure> money counts as a capital asset
18:13 < kanzure> and it's perhaps the most common
18:13 < fenn> so are you blaming it on monetary policy?
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18:13 < kanzure> i'm suggesting that money would be a very useful capital asset to conduct capitalism with
18:14 < drethelin> kanzure how is that relevant to over-priced slow industries
18:14 < kanzure> if more money was saved overall, high-capital-cost industries would become cheaper because of deflation
18:15 < kanzure> but, i was just commenting on your capitalism line, not necessarily about this industry i guess
18:15 < fenn> but if everyone saves doesnt that reduce the growth rate and cause a recession death spiral
18:15 < drethelin> that's more the part I'm curious about
18:15 < drethelin> than capitalism in general
18:15 < drethelin> why are there so many fields which seem obviously broken
18:15 < fenn> (i think this is what's happening in japan)
18:15 < drethelin> is it all just like
18:15 < drethelin> regulatory capture
18:15 < kanzure> there's lots of regulatory capture, but then lots of bad businesses too in general
18:15 < drethelin> eg you can hire a random guy to remodel your house for way cheaper than actual contractors
18:16 < kanzure> fenn: specifically you're worried about "everyone saving" or "nobody spending" ?
18:17 < kanzure> drethelin: there's also some weird knowledge arbitration going on, especially in obscure biotech niche industries.
18:17 < kanzure> and then you have a limited number of customers anyway, with limited funds, so you don't have much room to grow anyway
18:17 < kanzure> bridgeport operates on $10M/year revenue, that's it
18:18 < kanzure> that's super super tiny for having a majority stake of the entire global cnc market
18:18 < fenn> bridgeport is not a large player
18:18 < kanzure> that might explain something
18:18 < fenn> they're mostly used by universities and vocational schools
18:19 < kanzure> right, hm
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18:21 < fenn> i guess it actually matters what people spend their money on
18:21 < fenn> if everyone spends all their money on ice cream and kitchen remodeling, that doesn't really make the economy go
18:21 < kanzure> oops, i should not have called that hoarding http://archive.mises.org/5763/saving-versus-hoarding/
18:22 < fenn> but if they spend it on a new truck or a computer that helps them do other stuff..
18:23 < kanzure> a kitchen remodeling can be a capital expenditure because commercial kitchen efficiency, i dunno
18:24 < fenn> i'm talking about HGTV "granite countertops and accent backsplash" stuff
18:24 < kanzure> right, she doesn't do commercial kitchens anyway
18:25 < fenn> which drives up local property values but doesn't really contribute anything to the efficiency of making stuff
18:25 < kanzure> anyway if inflation is happening then why would you want to work for worthless dollars?
18:26 < kanzure> weird how http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism only mentions saving twice, "Neoclassical economics explain capitalism as made up of individuals, enterprises, markets and government. According to their theories, individuals engage in a capitalist economy as consumers, laborers, and investors. As laborers, individuals may decide which jobs to prepare for, and in which markets to look for work. As investors they decide how much of their ...
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18:26 < kanzure> ... income to save and how to invest their savings. These savings, which become investments, provide much of the money that businesses need to grow."
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18:26 < fenn> because of loss aversion, i guess. she's afraid of "throwing away everything i've worked for over the past N years"
18:27 < kanzure> sunk costs too
18:27 < fenn> same thing
18:27 < kanzure> and lots of psychological battery like "of course i should be doing this, to think otherwise would be silly"
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18:28 < fenn> i dont think "saving" is a very good description of how money is used as capital
18:28 < kanzure> *could be used
18:28 < fenn> an agile investor will maintain a diversity of asset types in order to anticipate different situations. money is good for when you need to just buy something quickly
18:29 < drethelin> http://www.theonion.com/articles/responsible-man-sets-aside-small-portion-of-every,37200/
18:29 < fenn> there's a whole range of different commodities with varying degrees of liquidity
18:29 < fenn> but there's also productive capital, which can also be a commodity
18:30 < fenn> for example your mom could sell her 8 foot table sander since she's not using it, but the faster she has to sell the less likely she is to get a good price for it
18:30 < kanzure> here's a weird thing for consideration, http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/working-and-saving-are-revolutionary-acts/
18:30 < fenn> "revolutionary" eh
18:31 < drethelin> ugh
18:31 < drethelin> that's a new trend I could do without
18:31 < drethelin> turns out actual revolutions are terrible but people still want to identify as revolutionary
18:32 < drethelin> and thus revolutionary goes the way of epic
18:32 < kanzure> programmers are a little bit stranger in the capital game because our labor has some really fucked up results
18:32 < fenn> i hope you're not generalizing all revolutions based the crap going on in the arab world
18:32 < kanzure> e.g. laboring for a few hours can put a million people out of work or something
18:33 < kanzure> erm i didn't mean to reference the other people aspect really
18:33 < kanzure> just the capital efficiency aspects
18:33 < fenn> yes all this theory was invented before automation
18:33 < kanzure> see also http://www.forbes.com/sites/venkateshrao/2011/12/05/the-rise-of-developeronomics/
18:34 < drethelin> fenn: nope
18:34 < drethelin> most revolutions are bloody shitfests
18:34 < drethelin> that don't accomplish what they claim or want to
18:34 < drethelin> kanzure: there's also like, musicians
18:34 < drethelin> who can now produce stuff that can be copied infinitely
18:34 < fenn> but the french revolution brought us the metric system :P
18:34 < kanzure> drethelin: what about it
18:34 < drethelin> the metric system is kind of shitty
18:34 < drethelin> a meter is not a natural kind
18:34 < drethelin> a foot is
18:35 < drethelin> feet and inches are easy to intuit
18:35 < kanzure> that article should have elaborated more on "Companies and individuals cannot develop new technologies without having savings or capital set aside to engage in or finance speculative research."
18:35 < fenn>  /unfriend drethelin
18:35 < kanzure> without any money in savings, people can't take risks really
18:35 < drethelin> base 10 is better for science but there's a reason traditional measuring systems are the way they are
18:35 < kanzure> (accepting a salary from a company isn't really a risk :p)
18:35 < fenn> holy shit are you seriously advocating pounds and fortnights
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18:36 < kanzure> his family is made up of biologists, go easy on him
18:36 < fenn> i understand how dozenalism is desirable, but the fact is we use base 10
18:37 < drethelin> it's more that I wish the metric system wasn't based on weirdness
18:37 < fenn> what weirdness
18:37 < drethelin> we can use a base ten system that takes into account intuitional measurements
18:37 < kanzure> you mean estimation?
18:37 < fenn> a person is 2 meters tall. there's yardsticks waltzing around everywhere
18:38 < drethelin> most people aren't 2 meters tall
18:38 < kanzure> i am
18:38 < fenn> most feet aren't one foot long
18:38 < kanzure> mine are
18:39 < fenn> i really don't get why the US didnt convert in the 1970s after the auto industry switched over to metric
18:39 < fenn> (the US auto industry)
18:39 < fenn> now there are two kinds of everything floating around
18:40 < kanzure> drethelin: also, many of those weirdo industries are actually very poor
18:41 < kanzure> even if you do $1M/year in revenue your company can still be poor
18:41 < kanzure> especially when everything is tied up in inventory or supply contracts etc etc
18:42 < kanzure> i suspect that a good accountant can make them seem less poor and arrange liquidity deals with banks, but it would be a struggle
18:43 < drethelin> mm
18:43 < drethelin> lots of stuff you can do with good accounting
18:43 < fenn> ouch
18:43 < fenn> "In capitalism, every human is either a capitalist, somebody else’s capital, or economically worthless. Today, this abstract point specifically translates to: people who can invest in developers, developers, and everybody else."
18:43 < drethelin> like maintain a profitable float
18:44 < kanzure> in the context of capitalism i believe developers are more like wizards or magicians
18:44 < fenn> yes i've always thought that in general
18:44 < kanzure> they do not bode well for your modeling heh
18:45 < fenn> like the one reason i tolerate the harry potter franchise is that it may actually represent the culture kids today will grow into
18:45 < kanzure> hm.
18:47 < drethelin> what do you mean tolerate it
18:48 < drethelin> like allow it to exist
18:48 < fenn> didn't you know, i run the internet censorship bureau
18:48 < kanzure> tolerate as in, he doesn't disappear in a huff of smoke whenever it's mentioned
18:51 < fenn> that would be a very wizardly thing to do
18:51 < kanzure> yes i have been known to carry a conversation once in a while
18:51 < kanzure> i've heard it can be quite magical
18:52 < fenn> i mean disappearing in a huff of smoke
18:52 < fenn> all the cool wizards are doign it
18:53 < kanzure> robot pirate wizard, of course
18:53 < kanzure> anywho that author has some other curious things on http://ribbonfarm.com/
18:54 < drethelin> one of my favorite farms
18:54 < fenn> you linked the gervais principle thing but i never got to it
18:55 < fenn> i got hung up on the name
18:56 < fenn> i think he's wrong to lump "chemists, mechanical engineers," in with other kinds of commodity labor
18:56 < justanotheruser> https://gist.github.com/dsueiro/4997152
18:57 < justanotheruser> Quote #1: "On May 13th 2012 we downloaded the full public record of this system, which consisted of about 180,000 HTML files."
18:57 < justanotheruser> Quote #2: "Nodes broadcast transactions to this network, which records them in publicly available web pages, called block chains, after validating them with a proof-of-work system."
18:57 < justanotheruser> Quote #3: "The entire activity in the Bitcoin network is publicly available through the internet and is recorded in the form of a block chain, starting at block 0 (created back on the 3rd of January 2009). Each block reports on as little as a single transaction to as much as over a thousand transactions, and provides hyperlinks to other blocks and to other activities of each address."
18:57 < kanzure> i thought it was well known that nobody should bother reading shamir's papers about bitcoin
18:59 < kanzure> well, i suppose it's necessary to still write up criticism anyway
19:00 < kanzure> very unfortunate waste of time
19:05 < kanzure> dingo: https://github.com/schematics/schemalchemy
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19:39 < dingo> this guy is a bit scant on details, i've read the tests and .py file twice over and i'm a bit perplex
19:39 < dingo> i think i need to toy with sqlalchemy a bit to figure out.. why this
19:41 < kanzure> here is your 10 second sqlalchemy intro: http://blog.miguelgrinberg.com/post/the-flask-mega-tutorial-part-iv-database
19:41 < kanzure> eww it's using sqlalchemy-migrate. ignore all those parts.
19:44 < justanotheruser> Isn't it strange that one of the creators of RSA got it so wrong?
19:44 < kanzure> nah, academia has its share of conservatism as much as anywhere else
19:44 < justanotheruser> conservatism?
19:46 < kanzure> hm how do i explain this
19:47 < fenn> groupthink?
19:47 < dingo> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC4#History
19:47 < dingo> its not rsa but its interesting, the origins
19:48 < dingo> jon oberheide is the one who brought it to your linux kernel
19:49 < dingo> at the time everybody was like, "is this legal?"
19:49 < dingo> and ppl were like "idk ..."
19:49 < kanzure> it's also something like... protecting territory or claiming territory by getting papers out faster than everyone else.
19:49 < kanzure> so the conservative thing to do is to publish absolutely anything as fast as possible
19:49 < kanzure> you'll even notice his dismissals in his email responses to the criticisms
19:50 < kanzure> "Yes, well, your criticism is flawed because clearly I published and you didn't."
19:50 < drethelin> hah
19:52 < kanzure> their responses here are very peculiar: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118797.msg1280496#msg1280496
19:57 < justanotheruser> by god that is the most well written email I think I've ever seen
19:59 < justanotheruser> "2. We noted that knowledge of multiple private keys is required in this case, and while it is always possible that different owners will share their private keys, this is not likely to happen very often."
19:59 < justanotheruser> oh wow, they keep digging themselves deeper
19:59 < kanzure> deflection yo
20:01 < justanotheruser> just bad assumptions
20:02 < justanotheruser> you don't need to share private keys to share a tx
20:02 < kanzure> there's also some sort of time-based advantage to publishing early and defending your territory
20:02 < kanzure> (citations)
20:02 < justanotheruser> what, you gain some legitemacy from citations?
20:03 < fenn> citations are the currency of the academic world
20:03 < kanzure> you absolutely gain legitimacy from citations
20:03 < fenn> it even directly quantitatively impacts your hireability, salary etc in the form of impact factor
20:05 < fenn> right now there's this huge explosion of bullshit journals in china just to get people published, otherwise their career will die
20:05 < fenn> mostly for chinese academics i think
20:06 < kanzure> it's everywhere. most of the u.s. researchers don't need to resort to that.
20:06 < kanzure> this guy has been tracking various spammy journals:
20:06 < kanzure> http://scholarlyoa.com/
20:06 < fenn> well there's a difference between spammy and scammy
20:07 < kanzure> it's both
20:08 < fenn> oh wait i'm thinking conference scams
20:08 < kanzure> it's very interesting how effective the "call for paper" scams are
20:08 < kanzure> to the extent that they can even collect publication fees from the authors
20:08 < kanzure> ooh http://scholarlyoa.com/2014/05/08/scholarly-publishing-phishing-attempts-noted/
20:09 < fenn> well they're just doing what the big time criminals have been doing for decades
20:09 < kanzure> those are not very good phishing attempts.
20:10 < kanzure> as far as i know, elsevier emails don't look like that
20:10 < fenn> i was talking about the absurdity of publication fees
20:11 < kanzure> i meant the link.
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21:52 < fenn> this is the first "security" thing i've seen that actually makes sense http://www.langsec.org
21:53 < kanzure> ""Shotgun parsers", Meredith L. Patterson, Sergey Bratus, November 2012-February 2013"
21:53 < kanzure> hm it is all maradydd
21:53 < fenn> in simple terms http://www.langsec.org/occupy/
21:54 < kanzure> "Hard-to-parse protocols require complex parsers. Complex, buggy parsers become weird machines for exploits to run on. Help stop weird machines today: Make your protocol context-free or regular."
21:54 < kanzure> fair enough
21:59 < nmz787> kanzure: freecad vs blender?
22:00 < kanzure> depends on what you're doing
22:00 < nmz787> can you expound on that?
22:01 < kanzure> animated videos, use blender
22:01 < fenn> blender is not so good at dimensioning
22:01 < kanzure> complex scene rendering, with beautiful reflections and impossible light physics.... blender.
22:01  * nmz787 ponders fenn's comment
22:02 < nmz787> rendering seems like an onion in that is seems like layering of effects
22:02 < nmz787> dimensioning sounds more 'different' than display
22:02 < nmz787> if that makes any sense
22:02 < nmz787> i was reading a bit about that CGAL vs opencascade
22:03 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cadfaq/
22:04 < kanzure> for a gui for mesh tweaking blender is fine. especially for aesthetic-style mesh tweaking.
22:04 < nmz787> kanzure: it seemed like you were concerned with NURBS support and also surface to surface meshing
22:04 < nmz787> or finding the knit-points?
22:05 < nmz787> to connect two surfaces that are getting added
22:05 < nmz787> something like that
22:05 < nmz787> ?
22:05 < kanzure> cgal is not a nurbs kernel
22:06 < kanzure> i only mentioned surface-surface because verbnurbs does not have a surface-surface intersection algorithm implemented at the moment
22:07 < kanzure> here are my notes on opencascade http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/opencascade/
22:08 < kanzure> fenn will be able to handle your cad questions /me sleeps
22:08 < fenn> sorry /me also sleeps
22:09 < nmz787> i should too
22:09 < fenn> i am years out of date wrt open source cad anyway
22:10 < kanzure> nothing has happened, cept verbnurbs
22:10 < kanzure> and python-brlcad
22:10 < kanzure> and cadquery
22:10 < fenn> you're going to be up all night remembering cad programs
22:10 < kanzure> you have no idea
22:12 < nmz787> so it seems you could write python scripts for blender, render them, but never save the triangles, only the scripts
22:13 < nmz787> then if you needed to massage triangles, you can save your 100 gigs of triangles or whatevefr
22:13 < nmz787> like, isn't NURBS just some symbolic math? so like the sage package might be able to handle?
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22:17 < fenn> yes you could save the scripts only
22:18 < fenn> (until the blender api changes and your scripts suddenly dont work)
22:19 < fenn> sage might be able to render nurbs data, but trying to do anything useful in it would be equivalent to writing a geometry kernel in some other programming language
22:22 < nmz787> i thought nurbs was just a curved line
22:24 < nmz787> wiki says it came from olden days when making a ship's bow, a strip of wood that was fixed at the end points then tugged on with varying directions and amounts of force... then some dude found out you could model that with vectors along a line
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22:52 < nmz787> has anyone seen a plastic powder/bead FDM print head? something like the HDPE milk bottle recycling to filament would work (with a hopper and an archimedes screw)... except going to a print head diameter, rather than a filament diamter.
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23:06 < justanotheruser> kanzure: strange. Is there anything that can be done to make scientific papers more robust?
23:07 < justanotheruser> The only scientific papers that I understand enough to say why they're certainly wrong are bitcoin related for the most part. Is this common in other papers?
23:07 < justanotheruser> I should say understand the topic well enough
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23:41 < nmz787> justanotheruser: how the hell can you evaluate some organic chemistry paper if you don't understand it? I don't see how that's related to the content being robust or not
23:42 < justanotheruser> nmz787: I mean understand it on a greater level than the author does
23:42 < justanotheruser> Most people who read the document we were talking about would probably take it as is
23:42 < justanotheruser> you likely aren't going to do research on every single statement
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23:54 < nmz787> that seems like an issue with the reader, that their fact/non-fact processing isn't robust enough to check or make note of thinks they don't understand, for someone else to check
23:55 < nmz787> paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1039/C4LC00576G
23:56 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/c46c0940f219b98d8a17b0dbb2d45dba.txt
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