--- Log opened Sun Oct 26 00:00:29 2014
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01:06 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Finney_(cypherpunk) seems pretty skimpy on the career section. i have seen old emails from hal at various companies i.e. hal@ghs.com which doesnt seem like a video game company.. anyone know more about his professional career?
01:07 < fenn> also apparently he got into cryptography because of reading Vinge's "True Names"
01:08 < fenn> "I recall reading "True Names" a few years ago.  Vinge had
01:08 < fenn> his netters exchanging mail anonymously.  The hero downloaded a big
01:08 < fenn> batch of messages from a BBS and tried decrypting all of them to see
01:08 < fenn> which were for him.  Okay, I thought, that would be a way of disguising
01:08 < fenn> which messages you were _receiving_.  Then Vinge said something like
01:08 < fenn> "and using more elaborate techniques, the sender of a message could
01:09 < fenn> be hidden as well."  Hold on, I thought.  That will never work.  If
01:09 < fenn> they tap your line, they're going to know exactly what messages you're
01:09 < fenn> sending.
01:10 < drethelin> sure but if you use codes you can send out a lot of messages
01:10 < drethelin> some of which will contain the info you want to secretly conve
01:10 < drethelin> convey
01:10 < fenn> steganography?
01:10 < drethelin> or just cyphers
01:10 < drethelin> and a known location to watch
01:11 < drethelin> eg your interlocutor could know to pay attention to comments from a certain user on a certain forum
01:11 < drethelin> oh wait
01:11 < drethelin> that's still steganography
01:11 < drethelin> if the original message is legible
01:11 < drethelin> I thought for a minute that was just for images/videos
01:13 < fenn> Chaum's "mix" remailer would save up a batch of cryptographically
01:13 < fenn> protected messages, decrypt them, rearrange their order randomly, then
01:13 < fenn> send them out.  This way if the remailer itself is secure but the
01:13 < fenn> network connections to it are being monitored, the correspondance
01:13 < fenn> between incoming and outgoing messages is lost.
01:13 < fenn> no need to actually decrypt them, just re-encrypt them and forward sez me
01:18 < fenn> these pre-www crypto lists are a lot easier to understand
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02:12 < fenn> .title http://lril.oxfordjournals.org/content/2/2/201.full?keytype=ref&ijkey=Q1KAdy8OVIJl713
02:12 < yoleaux> Weaponising neurotechnology: international humanitarian law and the loss of language
02:14 < fenn> mostly "ethics" blather
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02:38 < archels> mind-body problem wat
02:47 < archels> Among serious researchers, there are four kinds of people. (1) People who want to explain/understand learning (and perhaps intelligence) at the fundamental/theoretical level. (2) People who want to solve practical problems and have no interest in neuroscience. (3) People who want to understand intelligence, build intelligent machines, and have a side interest in understanding how the brain works. (4) People whose primary interest is to understand ...
02:47 < archels> ... how the brain works, but feel they need to build computer models that actually work in order to do so.
02:48 < fenn> i think the 'degenerate cartesian' stuff is about the legal interpretation of acts
02:48 < fenn> not mystical voodoo ineffable soul stuff
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03:10 < nmz787> so i am wondering if i can represent components and layers on a circuit board as partial differenential equations, and use fenics to solve for the optimal solution... yielding an autorouted circuit board
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03:20 < jrayhawk_> fenn: hal was active in the lw community; if you have questions about his life, you might ask in #lesswrong
03:22 < fenn> i expect people on ExI would know, since many of them have been around forever
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04:06 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/346/6208/463.full
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04:06 < ebowden> Oh, oops.
04:06 < ebowden> Paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/346/6208/463
04:06 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/2095bba0fdf4eeb66b38abfe6916fa5b.txt
04:08 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/346/6208/463
04:08 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1257008
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04:22 < ebowden> :9
04:22 < ebowden> :(
04:22 < ebowden> Link doesn't work.
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05:20 < kanzure> for someone who complains so much you sure don't support bugfixes
05:23 < kanzure> fenn: yes the whole thing about "oh yeah everyone in the community knows i wrote pgp and they're all okay with me not getting credit" is a little weird....
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06:11 < kanzure> "According to Uber[1] an UberX driver in NYC averages almost $91k per year based on driving a 40 hour week. However, in a follow up by BI[2], this figure seems to be widely refuted by Uber drivers across a number of states. For example, one in NYC says he drives 40 hours a week and doesn't expect to take in $50k this year, but that you can clear $4k a month after Uber expenses, gas, etc. doing 40 hours without too much hassle."
06:12 < kanzure> so anyone making less than $100k should just go drive around for uber
06:12 < kanzure> (until surge pricing fixes the market or whatever)
06:12 < kanzure> first ref is http://www.businessinsider.com/uber-drivers-salary-90000-2014-5
06:13 < kanzure> oscilloscope music stuff http://www.jerobeamfenderson.net/tagged/oscilloscope
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06:35 < streety> presumably how much you make will depend on when youwork those 40 hours
06:35 < streety> *you work
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06:35 < kanzure> certainly
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07:03 < kanzure> http://retractionwatch.com/2014/10/26/scientist-sues-pubpeer-commenters-subpoenas-site-for-names/
07:03 < kanzure> "Last month, we reported that a Wayne State University cancer researcher had threatened legal action involving post-publication peer review site PubPeer, claiming that he had lost a job offer from the University of Mississippi because of comments on the site."
07:04 < kanzure> .title https://pubpeer.com/publications/2D67107831BCCB85BA8EC45A72FCEF
07:04 < yoleaux> PubPeer - Curcumin analogue CDF inhibits pancreatic tumor growth by switching on suppressor microRNAs and attenuating EZH2 expression
07:05 < kanzure> this is their proof? hehe http://i.imgur.com/Kn1TV70.png
07:07 < kanzure> response by the university seems rather strong to me
07:07 < kanzure> unless they actually investigated
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07:15 < kanzure> meh http://scholarlyoa.com/2014/10/23/low-quality-scholarly-publishers-dont-understand-copyright/
07:16 < kanzure> duh? "CC is a license, not a waiver of rights. The copyright owner retains all rights, but grants a license for use under certain conditions. That the copyright holder retains all rights is actually a necessary condition for any legal enforcement of the license terms. So “all rights reserved” and a CC license are not necessarily incompatible."
07:19 < kanzure> hashcash implemented in a shell script http://www.hashcash.org/libs/sh/hashcash-1.00.sh
07:20 < kanzure> hashcash implemented in python http://www.gnosis.cx/download/gnosis/util/hashcash.py
07:39 < kanzure> me making comments about plover and source code typing https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8510928
07:39 < kanzure> "Wait, let's check. Assume 500 million qwerty typists. Assume an average of 10 minutes per day spent typing every day for a year by everyone. So a 1% improvement would be 34,700 years of labor saved over a single year? Pretty cool."
07:39 < kanzure> 500 million users is probably wrong
07:42 < kanzure> http://www.pewinternet.org/2011/09/19/americans-and-text-messaging/
07:42 < kanzure> "Some 83% of American adults own cell phones and three-quarters of them (73%) send and receive text messages."
07:42 < kanzure> (not qwerty but who cares)
07:58 < kanzure> "Metacrap: Putting the torch to seven straw-men of the meta-utopia" http://www.well.com/~doctorow/metacrap.htm
08:29 < dingo> i'm happy to announce i am in the 17%
08:31 < kanzure> yeah i think 83% is probably a lie because most people are on contracts where they do not own the phones anyway
08:40 < kanzure> strange way to do maintenance https://coinfire.cf/2014/10/25/withdraw-coins-mcxnow-immediately/
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09:10 < heath> starbucks doesn't block libgen
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09:20 < nsh> GG starbucks
09:43 < dingo> typing faster seems to be the topic on HN today huh
09:46 < kanzure> they downvoted me
09:46 < heath> link?
09:46 < kanzure> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8510409
09:47 < chris_99> don't see why they downvoted you for that
09:48 < kanzure> haters gonna hate
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11:03 < justanotheruser> Can I get syringes OTC? I want some Adenosine shots.
11:05 < drethelin> what for
11:06 < justanotheruser> restarting a heart
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11:12 < drethelin> how often does that come up
11:12 < drethelin> also do you mean adrenaline
11:12 < kanzure> i'm sure you can buy syringes in bulk on alibaba
11:14 < drethelin> https://www.google.com/search?q=syringe%27&oq=syringe%27&aqs=chrome..69i57l2j69i60j69i59j69i61j69i60.838j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#q=syringe'&tbm=shop
11:14 < kanzure> why did you paste that
11:15 < justanotheruser> drethelin: about once a week
11:15 < kanzure> syringes are kinda hard to find good sources for
11:15 < kanzure> it's a legitimate question i think
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11:38 < kanzure> chrome has been more crashy than usual lately
11:38 < kanzure> can't even handle 200 tabs
11:39 < justanotheruser> y u do thi
11:39 < justanotheruser> s
11:39 < justanotheruser> how do you even click the individually
11:39 < kanzure> in firefox i use tree-style tabs
11:40 < kanzure> in xmonad i use tags to identify each window i open (i think this is a feature they stole from cwm?)
11:42 < kanzure> and in chrome i pretend to use https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/tabman-tabs-manager/hgmnkflcjcohihpdcniifjbafcdelhlm
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12:15 < kanzure> block explorer style api https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2844
12:27 < archels> "USON? oh well, I can probably prototype that" http://www.turingbirds.com/temp/IMAG0925.jpg
12:27 < kanzure> nsh: pretend you are architecting a p2p distributed file storage system of some kind (but not the freenet kind)
12:28 < kanzure> nsh: if a user wants to store data with "maximal redundancy", it seems like there needs to be some metric for risk profiles or something, and then you would choose various storage providers with risk profiles that don't all fail under the same set of circumstances. right?
12:31 < kanzure> for example, it is objectively better (if you are aiming for maximum redundancy or reliability or something like this) to choose to allocate spending on storage to include any offer for storage that does not fail if the earth was to poof out of existence (or get totally blown up or something). but how does this get specified or checked or represented?
12:32 < kanzure> (naturally, most people do not have that kind of requirement because they are usually dead when the planet gets destroyed, and most people aren't insane archivists.)
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13:06 < fenn> beam it into space and hope somebody picks up the signal? gives a new meaning to interplanetary file system
13:06 < kanzure> i don't think there's a way to prove that two separately advertized available storage capacities are different.
13:07 < kanzure> that they aren't just the same storage provider doing a sybil attack against the network
13:07 < kanzure> (which would be a wise thing for them to do: the more fake nodes they have redirecting customers back to their own storage, the more likely it is that a customer is to randomly pick them out of all their competitors who aren't doing infinite sybil advertisements)
13:08 < fenn> but you could ask. presumably high fault tolerance systems have more latency and lower bandwidth so wouldnt be in demand by people who dont need them
13:08 < kanzure> ask?
13:09 < fenn> ask the provider. make up a protocol/format
13:09 < kanzure> providers have an incentive to lie in the system i just described
13:09 < kanzure> erm, i mean, they have an incentive to lie if these are paid data storage contracts
13:10 < fenn>  oh iread a different sense into the word "different"
13:10 < kanzure> like assume the default contract is something with a start date, end date, payment schedule, and maybe a big lump of payment upfront but otherwise an even distribution, or maybe an entirely even distribution, where it is cheaper for a provider to steal your initial payment than it is to continue honoring the contracting or something.. maybe..
13:11 < kanzure> ah well i meant something like, suppose i told you i would store 1 MB of data. how do you know that the other 1 million 1 MB advertisements aren't just me advertising my single 1 MB a million times?
13:12 < fenn> you look at past performance reputation
13:12 < kanzure> great now i need a whole reputation system. i don't think anyone actually has one of those.
13:12 < fenn> no but they should
13:13 < fenn> upload download ratio is a reputation system
13:13 < kanzure> it's centralized.
13:13 < fenn> use a blockchain then
13:13 < kanzure> haha
13:14 < fenn> what
13:14 < kanzure> yeah all of the blockchain-based reputation systems i've seen have been terrible
13:14 < fenn> why
13:14 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure reputation is not something that needs double spending protection?
13:15 < fenn> you are already talking about "double spending" storage facilities with the 1 million 1 MB scenario
13:16 < kanzure> i was thinking one possible defense of that would be something like: as soon as you connect to the network with new data storage capacity, the network determines some random data to dump into your system (and it can't be deterministic)
13:17 < kanzure> and then you have to store that for some amount of time
13:17 < fenn> yeah pre-allocating storage capacity seems like a good idea
13:17 < kanzure> and then later you prove that you still have the data (based on some more random data that you couldn't have predicted beforehand) and submit a proof that you still have the original stuff
13:17 < kanzure> and then you can show that you had that storage capacity for an hour or whatever.. but i don't know what that means.
13:18 < kanzure> oh right, also conflicting proofs should cause something to happen, not sure what
13:18 < fenn> so the 'attack' is what? not storing stuff for longer than an hour?
13:19 < fenn> does this system really not exist yet?
13:20 < kanzure> maybe the solution is to just have no storage advertising
13:20 < fenn> i guess people with huge data storage needs just buy hard drives and put them in shipping containers
13:20 < kanzure> they contract with data centers
13:21 < fenn> how do they verify the data center's reliability?
13:21 < kanzure> service-level agreements and such... and they write down "nine 9's" in the contract and underline it really hard.
13:21 < fenn> ah yes the angry primate algorithm
13:21 < kanzure> this seems helpful but not enough: https://bitcoinj.github.io/working-with-micropayments
13:25 < kanzure> but with no storage capacity advertising, how would you figure out where to send data and pay for storage?
13:29 < fenn> what is up with thepiratebay's search.. a search for "JSTOR" doesn't return this? http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/6554331
13:31 < kanzure> doesn't seem to search tags or descriptions
13:34 < kanzure> also: even usb sticks lie about their storage capacity
13:34 < kanzure> (right before they infect you with malware with 0days that were only announced just the immediatley prior week...)
13:34 < kanzure> *immediately
13:35 < justanotheruser> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088915830090457X
13:36 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20On%20the%20Role%20of%20Monetary%20Policy%20in%20a%20Deflationary%20Economy%3A%20The%20Case%20of%20Japan%0A%20.pdf
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13:37 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088915830090457X/pdf?md5=46e38f19f4008082898cfac10ebddbcd&pid=1-s2.0-S088915830090457X-main.pdf
13:38 < fenn> what was this about? http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2014/Mar/332
13:38 < fenn> .title
13:38 < yoleaux> Full Disclosure: Administrivia: The End
13:38 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20On%20the%20Role%20of%20Monetary%20Policy%20in%20a%20Deflationary%20Economy%3A%20The%20Case%20of%20Japan%0A%20.txt
13:39 < kanzure> oh yeah they shut down
13:39 < fenn> why?
13:39 < kanzure> maybe len dying had something to do with it
13:40 < fenn> that was like 3 years ago?
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13:41 < fenn> i mean, the usual protocol for when you're sick of maintaining something is to ask a new maintainer to stand up, not just unilaterally cockblock all your users
13:41 < fenn> "i'm taking my ball and going home" is immature and counterproductive
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13:42 < kanzure> they might not trust anyone else to run that list
13:42 < kanzure> considering that vulnerabilities can be superweapons
13:42 < fenn> but there will just be another list
13:42 < fenn> you can't wish bad stuff away
13:42 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRFKZGWrmrM
13:42 < yoleaux> Coding in Python with Plover (Longer Code Snippet) - YouTube
13:43 < kanzure> this part makes me a little more skeptical: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRFKZGWrmrM&t=2m23s
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13:43 < kanzure> i really wish she would respond to my challenge to type http://www.ioccc.org/2013/cable3/cable3.c
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13:45 < fenn> would save a lot of character just doing last_action = l and directly referencing l.word or whatever
13:46 < fenn> last.word instead of last_word = last_action.word
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13:48 < fenn> not really sure how this works tho.. is there a key for "_" and "." or what?
13:49 < fenn> or is it comparing what you're mashing in with words/tokens near the cursor
13:49 < kanzure> it's this bit of code i think: https://github.com/openstenoproject/plover/blob/master/plover/formatting.py#L355
13:49 < kanzure> anyway yes this is poorly written
13:49 < kanzure> all this "action.capitalize = True" shit should just be in a data structure or table somewhere, not code
13:50 < kanzure> and "meta" is a bad variable name >:(
13:51 < fenn> "alt" would be just as bad
13:52 < kanzure> right presumably you should pick some names as part of the project and just say "this is how we're naming things, deal with it" ("plover command sequences consist of three key presses, and you should refer to it as a command sequence or sequence, and not meta or alt")
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13:53 < fenn> well i'm just wondering if super-fast typing ability leads to super-verbose code
13:53 < kanzure> https://github.com/openstenoproject/plover/blame/master/plover/formatting.py#L355
13:53 < fenn> it's more of a concern than "will i be able to type meta[len(META):]
13:54 < kanzure> https://github.com/openstenoproject/plover/commit/015b4e2206ae8886d3bbce5c64824676b8523b0f
13:54 < kanzure> (this is not mirabai's code)
13:55 < kanzure> also i think this whole thing can be replaced with some sort of state machine
13:56 < kanzure> i am highly skeptical of these implementation choices
13:56 < fenn> This is me transcribing some of the code from Plover's codebase, using Plover and a steno machine. I didn't write this code, since I'm only a Python novice. It was originally written by Plover's awesome developers. But I transcribed it from a text file into Vim to demonstrate how easily and fluently code can be written with steno. It's not primarily about speed, but about chunking commands and
13:56 < fenn> words into single strokes, as opposed to breaking them down into individual letters and typing each letter out one by one as in qwerty. Also notice how simple error correction is; an incorrect word is deleted with a single stroke.
13:56 < kanzure> "an incorrect word is deleted with a single stroke" yes well it's vim...
13:57 < kanzure> (i know, i know, it's also mapped in plover too)
13:57 < fenn> i've read numerous scientific arguments against stateful interfaces
13:57 < kanzure> but isn't that what this is
13:57 < fenn> what did you mean "soem sort of state machine"
13:58 < justanotheruser> kanzure: Would a deflationary currency be bad for an economy?
13:58 < kanzure> instead of giant sprawling if-then conditions, it should be some modular system where state transition rules are more explicit
13:58 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
13:58 < fenn> oh, the sample code
13:58 < kanzure> justanotheruser: error insufficient data.. there are many types of deflation, like monetary base deflation and uh.. that other one.
13:59 < justanotheruser> kanzure: would bitcoins type of inflation be bad kanzoracle?
13:59 < kanzure> do you mean bitcoin's type of deflation?
13:59 < justanotheruser> yes
13:59 < kanzure> there are many who argue it would not be bad
13:59 < fenn> justanotheruser: inflation should be proportional to growth rate
14:00 < fenn> szabo calculates the optimum inflation rate somewhere
14:00 < justanotheruser> Seems it would make it harder to get loans with bitcoin
14:00 < kanzure> loans would not be as necessary
14:00 < kanzure> you would just save money instead
14:00 < fenn> lol
14:00 < fenn> "why do you need a loan, just get money"
14:01 < justanotheruser> kanzure: should I be homeless until I get enough money?
14:02 < kanzure> loaded question
14:03 < justanotheruser> wouldn't not having a loan not allow you to have a house until you saved up enough money?
14:03 < kanzure> first of all, houses are fucking stupid
14:03 < justanotheruser> lolwut
14:03 < kanzure> yeah great idea let's tie up the places we live with financial investments -_-
14:03 < kanzure> and real estate speculation
14:04 < justanotheruser> I am not talking about speculating on home value, I am talking about obtaining a basic necessity
14:04 < kanzure> haha
14:04 < kanzure> that's just how homes work man
14:04 < fenn> unfortunately they are locked together in this world
14:04 < fenn> thank you zoning board
14:05 < kanzure> i'm not trying to be difficult here
14:05 < justanotheruser> oracle tend to give vague answers so they aren't wrong
14:05 < justanotheruser> Or not vague
14:05 < kanzure> i find that being not wrong is a good thing
14:06 < kanzure> for whatever reason i can't find a good bitcoin + deflation article
14:06 < fenn> WRONG!
14:06 < kanzure> i'm really surprised.
14:06 < fenn> being wrong helps you learn
14:06 < justanotheruser> thats why I asked you
14:06 < justanotheruser> Maybe freicoin will take off
14:06 < justanotheruser> maybe the population will be in decline when bitcoin becomes well adopted
14:07 < justanotheruser> if deflation is bad, those are the two good scenarios for bitconi
14:07 < kanzure> "the population will be in decline"?
14:07 < justanotheruser> more people dying than being born
14:07 < kanzure> again there are many types of deflation that you need to separate out
14:09 < kanzure> there's an additional level of deflation bitcoin that i forget the name to, but it's the one where people lose coins (which is not easy to detect) due to deleting or irretrievably losing private keys, or sending them to unspendable outputs
14:09 < kanzure> *of deflation in bitcoin
14:09 < justanotheruser> yeah
14:10 < justanotheruser> for this purpose, I would define money supply / number of people to be declining
14:11 < kanzure> what do you mean by money supply, though
14:11 < fenn> oh well i can't find the szabo article i thought i had read
14:14 < kanzure> justanotheruser: arguably there is significantly less malinvestment in deflationary scenarios than in inflationary scenarios
14:14 < fenn> but there is less good investment too
14:14 < justanotheruser> malinvestment like? (other than bad housing loans)
14:14 < kanzure> malinvestment like "gee i need to get rid of this worthless currency, hmm let's roll the dice"
14:15 < fenn> stocking up on ammunition
14:15 < kanzure> fenn: yes, it flips the false positives rate or something
14:15 < justanotheruser> roll the dice literally, like gambling it away?
14:15 < kanzure> yes some investments are just gambling
14:15 < justanotheruser> well all are I think
14:15 < justanotheruser> most just have an E[X] above 1
14:16 < kanzure> gambling doesn't mean you always take shitty bets
14:16 < justanotheruser> yep
14:16 < fenn> any random commodity would be a better financial holding than an inflationary currency
14:16 < fenn> well, not beanie babies
14:17  * justanotheruser sells his dollars for tulips
14:17 < fenn> there's probably a word for this but i never studied economics
14:17 < kanzure> so the weird thing is that people are buying tulips still
14:17 < kanzure> they don't give that shit away for free
14:18 < fenn> what's an anti-bubble called, something like iron ore
14:18 < justanotheruser> yeah, but I assume the dollar loses value slower than a tulip
14:18 < justanotheruser> a trough maybe?
14:18 < kanzure> .g site:investopedia.com anti-bubble
14:18 < yoleaux> http://www.investopedia.com/features/crashes/crashes2.asp
14:19 < fenn> i mean a commodity that's not a speculative bubble
14:19 < streety> value trap?
14:19 < justanotheruser> fenn: I don't think it exists
14:20 < fenn> it not existing would explain why there's no word for it
14:20 < kanzure> justanotheruser: almost useful but not quite http://mises.org/daily/6709/Deflating-the-Deflation-Myth
14:20 < justanotheruser> kanzure: mises has a very slight bias :)
14:21 < kanzure> so what?
14:21 < justanotheruser> Will read and see if its logical of course though
14:21 < kanzure> at least you know the bias..
14:22 < kanzure> http://mises.org/daily/6459/Whats-So-Scary-About-Deflation
14:22 < kanzure> http://mises.org/daily/6362/The-Deflationary-Spiral-Bogey
14:22 < fenn> is there a difference between rising bitcoin prices due to speculation, and "deflation in the bitcoin economy"?
14:22 < justanotheruser> I wonder if a deflationary crytocurrency would succeed
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14:22 < fenn> s/price/exchange rate/
14:23 < justanotheruser> fenn: yes, people buying just because it will go up in value is speculation. It going up in value just because people want it to buy and sell stuff while the money supply goes down is deflation.
14:23 < justanotheruser> that 2nd definition is a bit off, but I think it makes sense
14:23 < kanzure> there's also a difference in the actual implementation details though
14:24 < kanzure> like the block reward (er, subsidy) is clearly "inflationary" but it's known in advance so it sort of cancels itself out
14:25 < fenn> it doesnt cancel out, it's just known, so it doesnt affect speculation much
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14:27 < kanzure> in what way would it matter if it was possible to detect the difference between speculation and non-speculation?
14:28 < fenn> you could be more certain that it would retain its value over time
14:28 < kanzure> well... you can already be certain about minimum lower bound value proportional to total bitcoin supply. which is interesting and not a property that other currencies have provided, historically.
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14:29 < fenn> explain please
14:29 < fenn> what is "minimum lower bound value"
14:30 < justanotheruser> if deflation truly is bad and bitcoin wrecked the economy I wonder if it would be softforked to have demmurage
14:31 < kanzure> fenn: since the total supply of bitcoin will never be greater than 21 million (approximately), you know that your 1 bitcoin is 1 out of 21 million. thus it will retain that value over time. monetary-policy-inflationary currencies don't give you that guarantee.
14:31 < kanzure> justanotheruser: nobody would agree that it was bitcoin
14:32 < kanzure> justanotheruser: btw, the mastercoin person speculates that people might end up super angry at bitcoin users http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/fanaticism/lifeboat.yaml
14:32 < justanotheruser> kanzure: by the definition of bitcoin you're right
14:32 < kanzure> https://lifeboat.com/blog/2013/04/bitcoins-dystopian-future
14:32 < fenn> kanzure: ok but the 1 bitcoin is still worthless if nobody wants bitcoins
14:33 < kanzure> no
14:33 < justanotheruser> kanzure: it would probably still be called bitcoin and it would be a softfork, but it wouldn't be bitcoin by the original definition
14:33 < fenn> its just like some random pokemon trading card that nobody collects
14:33 < kanzure> scenarios like aethereum seem to contradict that, fenn
14:33 < justanotheruser> if it wrecks the economy, the softfork is bound to happen
14:33 < kanzure> there's no way to prove that it was bitcoin that wrecked the economy, really
14:34 < justanotheruser> if no one can get a loan it is easy to guess
14:34 < kanzure> in that previous lifeboat link, you'll see that he speculates about national currencies failing, which will wreck the economy
14:34 < kanzure> is that bitcoin's fault or is that various countries' faults for implementing a poorly designed system?
14:34 < kanzure> is it bitcoin's fault that it's the only scarcity around?
14:34 < fenn> "aetherium initial coin distribution based on bitcoin" <- that scenario?
14:34 < kanzure> see http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/hyperbitcoinization/ and http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/speculative-attack/
14:35 < kanzure> fenn: right.. it's not just about the value of a bitcoin, but rather the entire utxo (unspent tx outputs). wouldn't be abandoned because anything that does abandon it, will be replaced by something that doesn't and get wider adoption...
14:35 < fenn> if bitcoin is worthless and aetherem is still traded, that's analogous to having a worthless pokemon card even though mewtwo is still valuable
14:36 < kanzure> so if bitcoin hardforks because of a feature change, and you can still spend something called "a bitcoin" on that network, it's not bitcoin?
14:36 < fenn> if you can still spend it on the new network, it's still a bitcoin
14:37 < kanzure> bitcoin has always had a weird epistemological problem about what the fuck it is. there's no central authority to define it heh.
14:37 < kanzure> okay, so if you can spend it on the aethereum network...?
14:37 < fenn> if the aethereum network still has value, then the bitcoin still has value
14:37 < fenn> (assuming you can spend it there)
14:37 < justanotheruser> interest how aethereum is a hardfork if everyone suddenly gave up on the old network
14:37 < kanzure> also it's not just aethereum.. see my comments here: http://sfultong.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-stupidity-of-blockchain.html
14:38 < fenn> can you spend bitcoins for new aethereum coins? (or whatever its called)
14:38 < kanzure> er, i should clarify that aethereum doesn't exist yet :)
14:38 < kanzure> for various definitions of exist
14:38 < kanzure> ....
14:38 < fenn> oh
14:38 < fenn> ok then talking about sidechains seems more productive
14:38 < kanzure> yes it is weird to say because i am clearly talking about it
14:38 < justanotheruser> kanzure: snapshots are infinite inflation. I think they just lead to an immediate crash
14:39 < kanzure> aethereum doesn't exist in the same way that sidechains don't exist at the moment
14:39 < justanotheruser> not a crash, rather, no value at the start
14:39 < kanzure> justanotheruser: who cares though? i can just sell my bitcoin in your snapshot, and buy more bitcoin.
14:39 < justanotheruser> kanzure: the developer of the altcoin cares
14:39 < kanzure> the developer of the altcoin was a moron :)
14:39 < justanotheruser> for using a snapshot...
14:40 < kanzure> right.. it's an incentive but it's bitter-sweet.
14:40 < justanotheruser> there is so much downward pressure that I don't think any altcoins could succeed working that way
14:40 < justanotheruser> with sidechains thats basically a known now
14:40 < kanzure> i think the adoption pressure with an incentive snapshot would be stronger than the downward pressure in the very beginning, but i also don't care that much
14:40 < kanzure> yes i agree that sidechains are a better idea anyway
14:40 < fenn> a snapshot is what?
14:41 < justanotheruser> copy the utxo over
14:41 < kanzure> stripe.com is allocating 19% of their ripple-fork currency, stellar, to bitcoin user balances
14:41 < kanzure> so if you own 100 BTC you end up with like 188,000 stellar-ripple-currency-units
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14:41 < kanzure> (just an example)
14:42 < kanzure> utxo is unspent transaction output index
14:42 < justanotheruser> I don't think ripple uses a utxo, so it doesn't apply to that example
14:42 < fenn> copying existing bitcoins to a new universe, basically
14:42 < justanotheruser> but every distributed consensus example it works
14:42 < kanzure> justanotheruser: er, probably right, they are probably doing the "bitcoin incentivization" through their centralization or something
14:43 < kanzure> ("login with facebook!")
14:43 < justanotheruser> its pretty easy to make a snapshot too
14:43 < kanzure> i haven't been keeping track but it's possible that some altcoin has already done this
14:43 < justanotheruser> just 1 tx in the genesis
14:43 < justanotheruser> kanzure: auroracoin did somewhat
14:43 < kanzure> fenn: yes
14:43 < fenn> i'm not sure i get it.. doesn't that destroy the scarcity that gives bitcoin its value in the first place?
14:43 < kanzure> heh
14:43 < justanotheruser> fenn: you aren't making more bitcoins
14:44 < kanzure> "it's complicated"
14:44 < fenn> i know
14:44 < fenn> but anyone can make a new universe and copy the ledger
14:44 < kanzure> argument-by-evidence: bitcoin has a price that is non-zero despite the presence of these forks http://mapofcoins.com/
14:44 < justanotheruser> so arguing that is like arguing that me making paper justan-bills for every bitcoin user destroys scarcity
14:44 < kanzure> right the ledger itself isn't the only valuable part of the equation
14:44 < kanzure> it's also the consensus/agreement/adoption on a particular blockchain
14:44 < kanzure> and the scarcity enforced by the mining and transaction rules etc etc
14:44 < fenn> right, that's why i dont get why anyone would do that
14:45 < kanzure> well why would they make an altcoin at all
14:45 < fenn> its like saying "i am he-ra master of the universe" and walking around in your underwear
14:45 < kanzure> that's basically satoshi nakamoto
14:46 < fenn> .title http://youtube.com/watch?v=iDlISIMyx04
14:46 < yoleaux> Captain Freedoms Workout 2000 (MR.MOUSTACHO - Workout) - YouTube
14:47 < fenn> i'm sorry it's just too funny
14:48 < fenn> there's this tv show "american pickers" where these dudes drive around buying "junk" which is just old stuff that happens to still be around
14:48 < fenn> it always amazes me that people are willing to pay hundreds of dollars for old advertising
14:48 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
14:49 < fenn> i wonder if the same thing will happen in the future for "junk crypto"
14:49 < kanzure> in my comment on that other blog post i mentioned that someone will probably start doing that for altcoins that are dead or dying
14:49 < fenn> like, antique digital assets
14:49 < kanzure> split your total currency into 10 parts, each part gets proportionally allocated to people who had currencies in one dead altcoin, and just have each group adopt it or something
14:50 < kanzure> of course, functional sidechains changes that a bit
14:50 < kanzure> but the principle is roughly the same
14:50 < fenn> if its dead it has no value tho, so your proportion is roughly zero
14:51 < kanzure> adoption and buy-in of users
14:51 < kanzure> peopel who had some amount of money in there
14:51 < kanzure> if it's dead then people lost money
14:51 < kanzure> "lost"
14:51 < fenn> i guess you could just trade one dead currency for another
14:52 < kanzure> also imagine back when satoshi hadn't distributed bitcoin yet
14:53 < kanzure> "okay guys i have some numbers in my database. it's a super scarce currency. really."
14:53 < fenn> oh ffs there's both "aethereum" AND "ethereum"?
14:53 < fenn> where's my clue stick
14:53 < kanzure> ethereum is the one that got $30M in bitcoin from people sending 'em on over
14:54 < fenn> do these people not know what a trademark is
14:55 < kanzure> they are trying to not alienate their user base i guess
14:55 < fenn> by letting people inject confusion into the communication lines?
14:55 < fenn> i would be pissed if someone named their project half a letter different and with the same pronunciation
14:56 < kanzure> there's a huge amount of confusion and chaos on that altcoin forum haha
14:56 < kanzure> very difficult for users to discriminate scams from technical competence
14:56 < kanzure> or technical competence from malice
14:57 < fenn> i think it takes a certain kind of detached personality to want to work on the core bitcoin protocol, and most people interested in finance don't have that personality
14:58 < fenn> its like writing standards documents or drafting a constitution
15:00 < kanzure> yes.. and it's not immediately obvious to everyone that they should go read source code or submit improvements to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
15:00 < kanzure> in fact, i'm sure some people might not even know it's open source software, even if they are familiar with open source anyway heh
15:01 < fenn> it's not obvious because there's no personal incentive to contribute to bitcoin development
15:01 < fenn> vs being he-ra master of the universe
15:01 < fenn> or at least i haven't figured out what the potential reward is
15:02 < kanzure> there are many incentives to contribute to bitcoin development, all of which are not immediate and upfront
15:02 < fenn> "for a better world"
15:02 < kanzure> hah no not that one
15:02 < kanzure> more like "become an expert for a multi-billion dollar industry that is experiencing 100x worse problems finding developers than silicon valley already is"
15:02 < kanzure> *cough*
15:02 < fenn> yeah i had figured that one out
15:03 < fenn> is why i'm talking about it at all
15:03 < fenn> also, learning takes time and knowledge is power
15:03 < kanzure> "hey this is a unix system. i know unix."
15:03 < fenn> a wild velociraptor appeared!
15:04 < kanzure> world dinosaur preservation authority denies that ever happened
15:04 < fenn> dinosaurs are a scarce commodity
15:05 < fenn> invest in dino coin today, we're working toward a utopian future of humans and dinosaurs
15:07 < fenn> also i think the potential for asset tracking is interesting. remember the hypothetical hackerspace vending machine? and all the problems we had figuring out how to grant access to various machines in different places
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15:07 < kanzure> how is that a problem solved by a double spending preventer?
15:07 < fenn> machines like 3d printers and laser cutters
15:07 < fenn> it's a secure way to grant access to stuff
15:07 < kanzure> also.. here is the primary storage attack to defend against: you are paying at regular intervals for some data to be stored, and really the storage provider deleted the data a long time ago.
15:08 < justanotheruser> kanzure: oracle, another question- on your website your phone number is listed. Who provides forwarding for you?
15:08 < fenn> duh. check the data at regular intervals
15:08 < kanzure> justanotheruser: that's my real number. nobody calls me. i'm all alone.
15:08 < kanzure> fenn: right. certainly.
15:09 < fenn> require proof of possession of the data
15:09 < justanotheruser> don't you get spam texts?
15:09 < kanzure> also, it would be nice to incentivize things like "oops we had a crash or storage failure, so we're cancelling the future payments" and possibly getting a reward for that rather than trying to lie until the next proof checking interval or something...
15:09 < kanzure> justanotheruser: no
15:09 < fenn> text spammers just send spam to every number
15:10 < justanotheruser> that makes sense
15:10 < kanzure> and the only spam calls i get are due to my electric company selling my data
15:10 < justanotheruser> you don't need to scrape the web to find phone numbers
15:10 < justanotheruser> o_O
15:10 < justanotheruser> sounds like a horrible business model
15:10 < fenn> phones are stupid
15:10 < justanotheruser> lol
15:10 < kanzure> homes are stupid
15:11 < justanotheruser> clones are stupid
15:11 < fenn> why hasnt anyone sent up a laser relay to geostationary orbit
15:11 < kanzure> jgarzik is setting up a bitcoin relay satellite thingy
15:12 < kanzure> </random>
15:13 < kanzure> it would be interesting if it was possible to sell my memory as a storage capacity on the p2p network thingy
15:13 < kanzure> like, i can memorize 20 bits or something
15:13 < fenn> ladee (the space laser data demonstrator module) had an encouragingly high bandwidth, i think 600Mbit?
15:13 < kanzure> how would it be communicated that my storage service is not always online.. or something.
15:15 < kanzure> or the relative reliability that i am advertising
15:15 < fenn> uptime is a different metric than data integrity
15:15 < kanzure> if i advertize 99.99999999% availablity, and get paid for such, what's the recourse if i was lying, compared to advertising 99.999% reliability and lying
15:16 < fenn> er, wait, nevermind
15:16 < kanzure> s/reliability/availability
15:16 < kanzure> s/availability/uptime
15:17 < kanzure> it would be nice to be able to buy 200 bytes across 500 different machines or something
15:18 < fenn> would each machine store 200 bytes or just 200*8/500 bits
15:18 < kanzure> i think either scenario is interesting and worthy of implementation
15:19 < fenn> i dont actually trust 99.whatever% reliability estimates because they ignore catastrophic failure modes
15:19 < kanzure> sure, makes sense. what's the right thing to say though...
15:19 < fenn> napster had 100% uptime until it didnt
15:20 < fenn> danger of "our incredible journey"
15:20 < kanzure> i should submit one for hplusroadmap
15:22 < fenn> ##hplusroadmap is being acquired by #bitcoin-wizards. these past six years have been an amazing time, full of awesomeness and super fantasiticiousness. thank you all for accompanying us on this incredible journey.
15:23 < fenn> services will be suspended immediately. everyone get out.
15:23 < kanzure> yeah.
15:26 < kanzure> so maybe discriminating between uptime claims is impossible
15:26 < kanzure> or rather, stupid, because anyone can be lying
15:27 < kanzure> oh your solution was magical reputation layer
15:27 < fenn> the probability that someone is lying or some disaster occurs is higher than their estimated failure rate in any case
15:27 < kanzure> right... it would be stupid to lie with lower frequency than your failure rate.
15:28 < fenn> reputation doesn't fix the catastrophic failure problem
15:28 < fenn> you need redundancy either way
15:28 < kanzure> what is wrong with catastrophic failure?
15:28 < fenn> you lose the data
15:29 < kanzure> sounds like regular falure?
15:29 < kanzure> failure
15:29 < fenn> regular failure is just data unavailability
15:30 < kanzure> data storage provider, like someone with a laptop that turns their laptop off or disconnects it, should specify in their original contract, how long they expect to be offline at a time. this should be negotiated when negotiating price.
15:31 < fenn> what about retroactive payment
15:31 < fenn> "you were online for 50% of the time, here's (some complicated formula) dollars"
15:32 < kanzure> payment at retrieve-time maybe? hmm.
15:33 < fenn> "retrieve-time" is a dumb concept
15:33 < kanzure> or just at the end of the contract entirely.
15:33 < kanzure> or, after every proof?
15:34 < fenn> how about each proof carries a reward
15:34 < fenn> more uptime = more proofs
15:34 < fenn> if you require stupidly high availability numbers, you pay more for that
15:34 < kanzure> the problem with a scenario like "okay, you can go offline for a year until the first proof is required, or that i need to download everything from you" is that a business presumably needs money upfront for operations.. otherwise the data vanishes?
15:35 < fenn> that's the business's problem
15:35 < kanzure> hmm, okay, i think.
15:36 < kanzure> sure does sound convenient
15:36 < fenn> its in the user's interest to pay up front so they can ensure there aren't any payment problems that cause data loss
15:37 < kanzure> right, pay into some sort of automated mechanism that pays for valid proofs or something, on a defined and negotiated schedule, such that a lack of proofs sends the money back to the user
15:37 < kanzure> does this still require magical reputation layer?
15:38 < fenn> you still want a reputation layer so the user knows what sort of uptime to expect
15:39 < kanzure> once there's bad reputation the storage provider will just create a new account anyway with zero reputation
15:39 < fenn> zero is bad
15:40 < kanzure> alright then he pays himself for proofs
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15:40 < fenn> what's the "business" model exactly?
15:40 -!- Maelstro [~beatzebub@S0106b81619e8ecee.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: No calling card for the unsung bard]
15:40 < kanzure> gain reputation, then lie to a user to take their money
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15:41 < fenn> he makes himself look like a high reliability storage provider, people sign up, data disappears, no money exchanges hands because of smart contract
15:42 < fenn> maybe i'm missing something
15:42 < kanzure> "actual availability turns out to be less than what you were paying for the whole time"
15:42 < fenn> no, you only pay for proofs
15:43 < fenn> proof of data is valued per byte, per proof
15:43 < kanzure> how does that discriminate between someone storing your data in a nuclear bunker with redundant power supplies, versus someone storing it on their cell phone for oyu?
15:44 < fenn> i'm not sure there's a reason one is better than the other
15:45 < fenn> this all hinges on having your data stored with multiple independent providers
15:45 < fenn> if all nuclear bunkers are shut down by the government, people who only stored their data in nuclear bunkers lose their data
15:46 < fenn> if all cell phones are shut down by the government, people who only stored their data in cell phones lose their data
15:46 < fenn> s/government/evil AI or whatever/
15:46 < fenn> so you want to diversify on as many axes as possible
15:47 < kanzure> all of those axes can be faked by an adversary or attacker or scammer. hrm.
15:47 < fenn> not necessarily
15:47 < kanzure> {"cellphone": "true"} {"bunker": "of course"}
15:47 < fenn> so it's a cellphone in a bunker?
15:47 < fenn> then it's doubly vulnerable
15:48 < kanzure> no i mean any node can say whatever it wants ("of course i'm a cell phone" and another one might say "of course i'm in a satellite in geosynchronous orbit")
15:48 < fenn> right
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15:49 < fenn> i dont know how to anonymously guarantee diversity of storage types
15:49 < kanzure> i don't even know how to guarantee that every ip address isn't assigned to the same computer
15:50 < fenn> same problem
15:50 < kanzure> oh yeah you wanted salted copies everywhere..
15:50 < fenn> that doesnt help because then you have 50 copies on the same disk
15:51 < fenn> also i'm not really sure what the access model is
15:52 < kanzure> let's assume not memcache
15:52 < fenn> if anyone can download the "stored" data, sorta defeats the purpose of salted copies
15:52 < fenn> because a cheater could just download the stored data from another provider
15:52 < fenn> and then salt
15:53 < fenn> (if anyone can download the stored data, they need to have a decryption key to use it)
15:53 < justanotheruser> thought for decentralized manufacturing: Go to a website, it gets your location and lists people around you with CNC machines and 3d printers. You upload your parts list and the prices by location are listed for the various people who can print or mill the parts.
15:54 < fenn> yes see 2009 logs :{
15:54 < kanzure> justanotheruser: 100kgarage
15:54 < kanzure> NEXT QUESTION
15:54 < justanotheruser> thanks kanzoracle
15:54 < fenn> also mfg.com does this in a shitty traditional business way
15:54 < fenn> and emachineshop does something less distributed but more internetty
15:55 < justanotheruser> kanzure: if someone tells me they are pushing 200 sales, does that mean they have almost 200 sales, or over 200 sales?
15:56 < fenn> almost
15:56 < justanotheruser> fenn: how can I be sure you're right if you're not kanzure?
15:56 < fenn> how do you know i'm not kanzure
15:56 < kanzure> because the truth is that i don't actually know anything
15:56 < kanzure> you see, fenn figured out a long time ago that i'm just this giant lookup table
15:56 < justanotheruser> oh
15:56 < justanotheruser> source?
15:57 < fenn> see the book "reciprocality" section "packers vs mappers"
15:57 < justanotheruser> no, like where can I find this lookup table
15:57 < kanzure> fenn: you might be amused to know that sheena also figured that out about me
15:57 < fenn> kanzurebot what is the tallest tree in vermont
15:57 < kanzure> one hand clapping
15:58 < kanzure> justanotheruser: it can only be accessed over irc
15:58 < justanotheruser> oh
15:58 < justanotheruser> hmm
15:58 < justanotheruser> so does fenn run this channel
15:58 < justanotheruser> and he has kanzure and paperbot
15:58 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o fenn] by ChanServ
15:59 <@fenn> i do now, bitches!
15:59 < justanotheruser> please give me voice so I can be a level above kanzure
15:59 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o fenn] by ChanServ
16:00 < fenn> sorry, i believe in the fungibility of people
16:00 < kanzure> if there has to be a reputation system then it should be centralized
16:01 < justanotheruser> kanzure: I disagree
16:01 < kanzure> and anyone should be able to run one and compete against other established reputation systems on the network
16:02 < justanotheruser> if there are only 2 degrees of trust then you can have a list of people trusted by you, give that to a few competitors selling a product and they can supply negative reviews from people you trust for their competitors and positive reviews for themselves
16:02 < fenn> something something ripple whuffie
16:02 < fenn> whuffie in the book 'down and out in the magic kingdom' not the stupid twitter followers thing
16:03 < justanotheruser> these merchants would need to have the entire WoT to do that though
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16:03 < fenn> a pre-requisite to all this is a system for stating what you will and will not do in various circumstances, a code of honor if you will
16:03 < justanotheruser> fenn: well my model is for a decentralized gambling idea I had
16:03 < fenn> justanotheruser: you can't "have" the web of trust because it's constantly changing, you can only query it
16:04 < kanzure> why is a code of honor required
16:04 < justanotheruser> fenn: you can have an outdated web of trust, no?
16:04 < justanotheruser> fenn: the code of honor in my case would be "don't lie about an event happening or not happening
16:04 < fenn> the code of honor is to provide a set of dimensions to base your reputation on. like who cares about your number of twitter followers if i'm buying storage capacity
16:05 < kanzure> anyway, if you need a diversity of storage, then you should encrypt and upload multiple times i think
16:05 < fenn> (bad example of honor i guess)
16:05 < justanotheruser> a rule set
16:05 < fenn> i like to think of it as protocols
16:06 < fenn> protocol 123.4 i will store data for 123.4 microBTC per proof gigabyte
16:06 < fenn> oh i shouldnt have reused the number, that's confusing
16:07 < justanotheruser> what is a proof gigabyte
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16:07 < kanzure> maybe it's important to distinguish failure modes from when a user is really getting cheated
16:07 < fenn> basically a hash of the gigabyte and a random number
16:08 < justanotheruser> oh
16:08 < kanzure> there are more sophisticated proofs i think
16:08 < fenn> probably
16:08 < fenn> the challenger (user) provides the random number
16:08 < kanzure> secure delegation of auditing http://eprint.iacr.org/2011/304.pdf
16:08 < kanzure> you can have a network provide the random number
16:08 < fenn> catchy title
16:08 < kanzure> so that the user doesn't have to be online
16:09 < fenn> the network is just acting as the user's agent in that case
16:09 < fenn> the provider "challenging" themself is sorta useless
16:10 < justanotheruser> maybe the blockchain should provide the random number so we can have them get paid trustlessly
16:10 < justanotheruser> would require some zkp though
16:10 < fenn> that's the idea.. i'm still not sure i understand zero knowledge proofs
16:10 < justanotheruser> hmm
16:11 < justanotheruser> I wonder how much producing a zkp would increase the cost of storage by
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16:13 < justanotheruser> kanzoracle: how do I make yogurt glow in the dark
16:13 < fenn> problem with just hashing the salted GB: to validate the proof you need to have a local copy of the GB, defeating the purpose of remote storage
16:14 < fenn> you could compare the proof to another node storing the same data, but they might be colluding
16:14 < justanotheruser> fenn: without the zkp, yeah. I think the original idea was to have M of N
16:14 < fenn> M whats of N whats
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16:15 < justanotheruser> M people storing the file agreeing on a hash
16:15 < kanzure> people?
16:15 < justanotheruser> too many people colluding means they don't have to store your file of course
16:15 < kanzure> what is a people
16:15 < justanotheruser> kanzure: servers, whatever
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16:15 < kanzure> no way to confirm a server is a server
16:15 < justanotheruser> kanzure: of course, sybil is a problem
16:15 < fenn> .ety person
16:15 < yoleaux> person (n.): "early 13c., from Old French persone "human being, anyone, person" (12c., Modern French personne) and directly from Latin persona "human being, person, personage; a part in a drama, assumed character," originally "mask, false face," such as  …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=person
16:15 < fenn> aw wtf is this shit
16:16 < kanzure> "assumed character"
16:16 < fenn> .ety persona
16:16 < yoleaux> persona (n.): "1917, "outward or social personality," a Jungian psychology term, from Latin persona "person" (see person)." — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=persona
16:16 < fenn> fuck you yoleaux
16:16 < justanotheruser> (see person)
16:16 < justanotheruser> ok
16:16 < justanotheruser> .ety person
16:16 < yoleaux> person (n.): "early 13c., from Old French persone "human being, anyone, person" (12c., Modern French personne) and directly from Latin persona "human being, person, personage; a part in a drama, assumed character," originally "mask, false face," such as  …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=person
16:16  * justanotheruser recurses infinitely
16:16 < fenn> from the latin 'per sona' that from which the voice originates
16:18 < fenn> justanotheruser: your M of N could be exploited by a cheater who only sells fake storage capacity to users whose nicks start with the letter J
16:19 < fenn> then you purchase storage capacity from 9 sybils and 3 honest providers, how do you distinguish the sybils and the honest nodes?
16:19 < justanotheruser> fenn: its very difficult. Thats why a zkp is probably the only safe way to do this
16:20 < kanzure> based on my analysis i have concluded that the conventional data hosting industry should have imploded decades ago
16:20 < fenn> there is no data hosting industry
16:20 < fenn> there is no data storage industry*
16:21 < kanzure> what is amazon aws s3
16:21 < fenn> a single data storage provider
16:21 < kanzure> what is cdn industry like akamai and cdnjs
16:22 < fenn> uh, a cdn
16:22 < fenn> you might as well say bittorrent is for data storage (which is plainly false, attested to by the huge numbers of unseeded torrents)
16:22 < kanzure> hm.
16:23 < fenn> anyway it's an interesting question, does s3 suffice for your needs/
16:24 < fenn> .wik s3
16:24 < yoleaux> "S3, S-3 or S03 may refer to:" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S3
16:24 < fenn> .wik amazon s3
16:24 < yoleaux> "Amazon S3 (Simple Storage Service) is an online file storage web service offered by Amazon Web Services. Amazon S3 provides storage through web services interfaces (REST, SOAP, and BitTorrent). Amazon launched S3, its first publicly available web service, in the United States in March 2006 and in Europe in November 2007." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_S3
16:25 < fenn> amazon gets around these problems by having trusted nodes
16:26 < kanzure> and their own redundancy that they manage
16:26 < fenn> sure but that's not the issue really
16:27 < fenn> a single cease and desist will cause all of their nodes to "fail"
16:27 < kanzure> well you should encrypt anyway
16:27 < kanzure> ah at the infrastructure level, fair enough
16:28 < kanzure> justanotheruser: deflation stuff https://mises.org/journals/qjae/pdf/qjae6_4_2.pdf
16:28 < justanotheruser> O_o
16:28 < justanotheruser> Apoplithorismosphobia
16:30 < justanotheruser> This looks more promising than the other link you sent me which basically said "the economy won't completely fail if we have deflation"
16:30 < fenn> you could store random bits of the stored data as one-time-pad proofs that get used up over time, and you have to periodically refresh your pad
16:33 < justanotheruser> @An economy that is experiencing deflation or falling prices
16:33 < justanotheruser> tends to be favorable to low-income groups because low-income individuals tend to
16:33 < justanotheruser> spend a high proportion of their income on goods
16:34 < justanotheruser> this seems to assume a constant salary, which deflation wouldn't provide I think
16:37 < justanotheruser> It seems this paper may be full of strawman
16:37 < justanotheruser> "The fear of deflation is simply a confusion of
16:37 < justanotheruser> cause and effect, whereby economists and politicians blame falling prices for the
16:38 < justanotheruser> problems caused by prior increases in the quantity of mone"
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16:39 < fenn> oh the book was called "the programmer's stone" not "reciprocality" (the sequel)
16:42 < kanzure> hmm.
16:42 < kanzure> yes i would prefer to do this without reputation
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16:42 < kanzure> although that would mean that nobody gains anything from being reliable?
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16:43 < fenn> i think there's a difference between providing high availability storage and having a good reputation; the difference is whether you promised high availability or not
16:45 < kanzure> sounds like a really weird thing to promise anyway. how would anyone know?
16:45 < fenn> if someone promises high availability, a failure counts more against their reputation than against someone who doesn't promise it
16:45 < kanzure> anyone can claim anything about high availability
16:45 < fenn> sure but not everyone can back it up by providing it
16:45 < kanzure> but isn't that the usual startup ploy- just keep selling promises until you get growth, then go back and cover your bases? heh
16:45 < fenn> "how would anyone know?" is exactly the problem the reputation system is supposed to solve
16:45 < kanzure> http://aws.amazon.com/glacier/
16:47 < fenn> are you willing to pay $500/mo to archive teh paperzz
16:48 < kanzure> not like that, no
16:48 < kanzure> i already have substantial archives sitting around
16:48 < kanzure> that's part of the problem..
16:48 < fenn> data grows to fit available capacity
16:48 < kanzure> that's not what i mean
16:49 < fenn> goldfish in a bathtub
16:49 < kanzure> if i just open it up to anyone, i get sued
16:49 < kanzure> (access, i mean)
16:49 < fenn> how is it that file sharers dont get sued
16:51 < fenn> do you really get a bill of $0.01 per month for storing 1 GB
16:52 < fenn> that cant be realistic
16:52 < fenn> say i want to store 1GB for 10,000 years, that's only $1200
16:53 < kanzure> they expect you to store a lot of data i think
16:53 < kanzure> and there might be a minimum
16:55 < fenn> "average annual durability of 99.999999999%" i wonder how they come up with this number
17:00 < fenn> i bet some magical OCR technology can shrink the size of teh paperz by several orders of magnitude
17:02 < fenn> 208K    secure_delegation_of_auditing.pdf
17:02 < fenn> 12K     secure_delegation_of_auditing.txt.gz
17:03 < fenn> is there some kind of un-latex software
17:04 < kanzure> not to my knowledge
17:05 < fenn> srsly wtf, how is there 186kB of formatting there
17:07 < kanzure> well it's pdf
17:07 < fenn> what kind of excuse is that
17:08 < kanzure> i don't want to be held responsible when someone shows up and says "oops your 2 TB data set turns out to be completely wrong 80% of the time because you deleted too much when converting from pdf"
17:10 < fenn> it might be as little as 150GB
17:10 < fenn> that's throwing out pictures tho
17:11 < kanzure> what about supplementary data
17:11 < fenn> supplementary data doesn't exist
17:12 < kanzure> supplementary documents
17:12 < kanzure> "Not only do users benefit from Visabl's powerful and easy to use interface, but manufacturers do as well. Advertise new products in the Visabl database with minimal effort. Sponsorship opportunities allow your products to be pushed to the top of the page increasing exposure. Listings let you display high resolution pictures of your antibodies along with formats, volumes, and catalog numbers. Best of all, Visabl links directly to the ...
17:12 < kanzure> ... manufacturers site for purchasing. We are not a middleman."
17:12 < kanzure> http://www.visabl.com/pages/about_us.html
17:12 < kanzure> how is that not a middleman
17:12 < kanzure> *rage*
17:12 < fenn> they are just an advertiser
17:12 < fenn> they dont sell antibodies, only advertisements
17:12 < kanzure> they are a middleman for traffic
17:13 < fenn> so i'd rather have a 150GB text archive than nothing
17:13 < justanotheruser> kanzure oracle: tell me non-obvious reasons / non-health reasons I shouldn't smoke.
17:13 < kanzure> what are you supposed to be not smoking, in particular
17:13 < fenn> justanotheruser: it's disgusting and makes people not want to be around you
17:13 < fenn> (apparently this is not obvious to smokers)
17:13 < justanotheruser> orly?
17:14 < justanotheruser> when I smoke I smell good, but on days I don't smoke I smell other people that smoke and they smell bad
17:14 < fenn> that is just your nose dying
17:15 < fenn> is it obvious?
17:15 < justanotheruser> fenn: I don't smoke pot, but to try to understand where you're coming from, is smoking pot disgusting?
17:15 < fenn> are you talking about pot or tobacco?
17:15 < justanotheruser> fenn: it isn't obvious because the effects of not being able to smell smoke are temporary
17:15 < justanotheruser> fenn: tobacco
17:15 < justanotheruser> but I want pot for reference
17:16 < fenn> uh, bong water is gross but it's contained in the bong
17:16 < justanotheruser> also, my sense of smell has never been good I think. Thats not a reason to make it worse I guess
17:17 < fenn> i haven't noticed any overwhelmingly bad people-smells due to pot
17:17 < kanzure> non-health, but obvious, is money.
17:18 < fenn> pipe tobacco and hooka also doesn't seem to be much of a problem wrt smell persistence
17:20 < justanotheruser> I wonder what it is about pipe tobacco
17:20 < justanotheruser> maybe its because you smoke less
17:20 < justanotheruser> maybe you just get less on you
17:21 < fenn> i dunno if this qualifies, but smoking is another dependency like eating or breathing that you have to deal with
17:21 < justanotheruser> very true
17:21 < justanotheruser> more generally, a time sink
17:22 < fenn> if shit hits the fan and you are unable to acquire tobacco, it causes problems that otherwise you wouldn't have
17:22 < justanotheruser> for addicted people, ya
17:22 < justanotheruser> I assume shit hitting the fan is running out of funds
17:23 < fenn> the world ends, or you are air-dropped into rural canada, etc
17:23 < fenn> bad example
17:23 < fenn> i watched a lot of 'survivorman' episodes
17:23 < justanotheruser> I think the best example is running out of money
17:24 < fenn> i've seen a lot of bums asking for and receiving cigarettes
17:25 < justanotheruser> true. I hardly see them rejected actually
17:25 < fenn> on the other hand, nicotine does seem to be a nootropic
17:25 < fenn> i mostly take issue with the delivery mechanism
17:25 < justanotheruser> yes, that is the positive
17:25 < justanotheruser> even ignoring the delivery mechanism, nicotine does cause heart problems
17:26 < fenn> i dont know much about it tbh
17:26 < fenn> apparently nicotinic acid is structurally very different from nicotine
17:36 < kanzure> hrm what's the minimum environment to prove that i am not being cheated
17:37 < kanzure> is there a memalloc thing that is provably non-cheating
17:37 < kanzure> where's my kernel person
17:37 < fenn> i think therefore i am
17:37 < fenn> (says the simulation)
17:39 < fenn> looking at http://archiveteam.org
17:39 < kanzure> win 394
17:40 < kanzure> gahJEOIQJ
17:40 < kanzure> 17:36 < helmholtz> Hello all. I'm trying to build bitcoin 0.9.3 from source on ubuntu 12.04 and having trouble. I am getting the following error when running make
17:40 < fenn> kanzure: are you really in 400 irc channels?
17:40 < kanzure> that's not helmholtz >:(
17:40 < kanzure> well it depends on what you mean by in
17:41 < fenn> how can you even see what's happening
17:41 < fenn> or remember which channel is which window
17:43 < kanzure> drugs...
17:43 < catern> lol
17:45 < kanzure> my number one problem is seeing highlights actually
17:45 < kanzure> but backlogs are very useful
17:47 < fenn> is there away for irssi to not signify activity just for joins/parts?
17:49 < kanzure> dunno, but i also dunno if i would use that
17:50 < kanzure> "Gossip-based aggregation of trust in decentralized reputation systems" http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~arielpro/papers/trust.jaamas.pdf
17:50 < fenn> hm. "Using dejunk, all these events on large channels are hidden if the user doing them has not said anything for a while. This way, you only see such activity when it matters."
17:52 < fenn> isn't your status bar full of numbers?
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17:53 < kanzure> yes, which i regret very strongly
17:53 < fenn> what happens when it reaches all the way to the end? does it just run off the end?
17:54 < kanzure> yes :(
17:54 < kanzure> i want a vertical list, really.
17:55 < fenn> that would be hard to do efficiently with ncurses
17:56 < kanzure> could be through tmux for all i care
17:57 < fenn> i was wrong, it should be easy with windows
17:57 < fenn> http://hughm.cs.ukzn.ac.za/~murrellh/os/notes/ncurses.html#window
17:58 < kanzure> what's the problem with just paying nodes to start seeding?
17:58 < fenn> ask dingo
17:59 < kanzure> that's the spirit, delegation!
17:59 < fenn> i meant about vertical list
17:59 < fenn> paying nodes to start seeding?
18:00 < kanzure> meh i wouldn't do it with irssi anyway. i would rather do some irc daemon.. proxy.. thing.. that i have my clients connect to. and then i don't have to worry about shitty irc implementations or something.
18:00  * fenn reads omg backlog
18:00 < kanzure> or my ui also being my client (wtf)
18:00 < fenn> that is kinda borked isnt it
18:01 < fenn> model view controller!!!
18:01 < kanzure> same thing with other forms of chat too
18:01 < kanzure> it's like making my email daemon also my email client.
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18:11 < catern> well in the case of irc, the custom of having a ZNC bouncer that just speaks IRC to Freenode and to your clients is quite interesting and cool - you just have one protocol all the way up and down the stack, just cached or whatever
18:17 < kanzure> bouncers always seemed wrong to me
18:18 < fenn> is a bouncer somehow different from a proxy?
18:19 < fenn> i guess it stores state while you're disconnected
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18:50 < fenn> kanzure: looks like vertical activity notifiers should be possible http://wouter.coekaerts.be/irssi/nlscreen.png
18:51 < fenn> "works in 1 terminal, but does more redrawing (using more bandwidth if you run it remote), flickers a little bit, and doesn’t work perfectly (sometimes some lines in the nicklist will be blank for a short while)"
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19:07 < kanzure> that sounds dumb
19:08 < kanzure> meh
19:08 < fenn> that's what i was thinking of when i said it would be hard to do efficiently
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19:24 < kanzure> "At first, I decided to just solicit them our deck and pitch but then I realized something: Tim Ferriss and Jason Calacanis almost definitely knew each other. So I spoof called Calacanis from Tim Ferris’ number."
19:24 < kanzure> tsk tsk
19:27 < fenn> Tim Ferriss would have approved
19:28 < kanzure> apparently not? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8512039
19:29 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:29 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_hole
19:29 < kanzure> .wik Analog hole
19:29 < yoleaux> "The analog hole (also known as the analog loophole) is a fundamental and inevitable vulnerability in copy protection schemes for noninteractive works in digital formats which can be exploited to duplicate copy-protected works that are ultimately reproduced using analog means." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_hole
19:34 < fenn> since when is spoofing caller ID "hacked my phone"
19:34 < kanzure> since all the fun phone holes were plugged
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19:34 < fenn> and how the fuck does a tech investor not know the difference
19:34 < fenn> "people go to jail for doing these kinds of things"
19:35 < fenn> @jason has 57 tweets!
19:35 < fenn> 57,000
19:37 < fenn> oh. "Someone hacked my voicemail and changed my outgoing message to get me to invest."
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20:06 < genehacker> didn't someone do a simulation of NASA's self-replicating factory?
20:06 < genehacker> I can't seem to find it
20:07 < kanzure> gimme more terms.. was this recent?
20:07 < kanzure> 1980s AASM stuff?
20:08 < genehacker> yeah
20:08 < kanzure> which one
20:08 < genehacker> or maybe the NIAC stuff
20:08 < genehacker> no not recent
20:08 < fenn> http://www.rfreitas.com/Astro/GrowingLunarFactory1981.htm
20:08 < kanzure> http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/
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20:12 < fenn> i vaguely recall seeing some 3d flyovers of the "paving" process with lunar regolith dozers
20:12 < genehacker> yeah and I remember a simulation that took into account the mining too or something
20:13 < fenn> "Paving robots. In order to secure a firm foundation upon which to erect seed (and later LMF) machinery, a platform of adjoining flat cast basalt slabs is required in the baseline design. A team of five paving robots lays down this foundation in a regular checkerboard pattern, using focused solar energy to melt pregraded lunar soil in situ."
20:14 -!- Beatzebub [~beatzebub@S0106b81619e8ecee.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:15 < genehacker> still nothing new in self-replicating robots?
20:15 < genehacker> besides the moses-chirikjian universal constructor?
20:16 < kanzure> there's this bitcoin person running around who raised a few million bucks for a self-replicating factory project
20:16 < kanzure> however, he's never replied to my emails
20:16 < fenn> dani eder is building a wiki on factories
20:17 < kanzure> just a wiki?
20:17 < fenn> a book i guess
20:17 < kanzure> that's what the million bucks is for? fuck
20:17 < genehacker> who's the bitcoin person?
20:17 < kanzure> dani eder <danielravennest@gmail.com>
20:18 < fenn> https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:Danielravennest#The_Seed_Factory_Project https://sites.google.com/site/seedfactoryproject/
20:18 < kanzure> don't waste too much of your time here
20:19 < genehacker> oh yeah that guy
20:19 < fenn> what does "that guy" mean
20:19 < fenn> and what does bitcoin have to do with it
20:20 < kanzure> he had people send him bitcoin to "do this project"
20:20 < genehacker> the guy who is posting his seedfactory stuff everywhere
20:20 < fenn> my understanding is that dani eder worked at boeing for decades doing research on far-out space projects
20:21 < kanzure> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=32418;sa=showPosts
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20:23 < genehacker> also kanzure, do you have any good stuff on early semiconductor fabrication?
20:23 < genehacker> I'm wondering if there are any processes for making ICs that don't use photo  resist
20:23 < fenn> yeah man gimme the dope, the good stuff
20:23 < kanzure> yes but it's all in the logs though
20:23 < fenn> high grade dopants
20:24 < kanzure> yes there are non-photoresist methods, like the uh.. large-cut-width.. ruby.. something.. damn i don't remember the name
20:24 < fenn> contact lithography?
20:25 < genehacker> errr, semiconductor manufacturing processes that don't uses any organics or water
20:25 < fenn> fib, sorta
20:25 < fenn> surely you can make a flexible silicone out of moon dust :)
20:26 < genehacker> moon dust is really low in hydrogen
20:26 -!- Maelstro [~beatzebub@S0106b81619e8ecee.gv.shawcable.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:27 < fenn> certainly one could make an etcher like a focused ion beam, but it would be horribly slow and energy intensive
20:28 < fenn> i'm not sure how to do large scale pattern copying without lithography
20:29 < fenn> maybe there are low melting point metals that can be used as masks?
20:29 < fenn> like sodium or lithium
20:29 < fenn> then you can do bulk ion bombardment to etch between the mask lines
20:30 < fenn> oxygen ions prolly
20:30 -!- Beatzebub [~beatzebub@S0106b81619e8ecee.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20:30 < fenn> out of my league
20:31 < fenn> it's hard enough to do this stuff with all of modern chemistry at your disposal
20:33 < genehacker> well there's aluminum trifluoride which can be exposed by electron beams
20:33 < kanzure> hm http://www.deshawresearch.com/
20:34 < genehacker> honestly I'd even be fine with millimeter scale transistors
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20:35 < genehacker> and using big masks to selectively deposit dopant and aluminum
20:35 < fenn> btw how you going to reduce all these elements without hydrogen or carbon?
20:36 < kanzure> "honestly I'd even be fine with millimeter scale transistors"
20:36 < kanzure> i am pretty sure that's a thing i have said in here
20:36 < kanzure> in that exact phrasing
20:36 < genehacker> molten oxide electrolysis
20:36 < kanzure> kjskjskjs: are you around. you should be around.
20:37 < fenn> oh here we go http://www.asi.org/adb/02/13/02/silicon-production.html
20:37 < fenn> #3 search result for "lunar fluoride"
20:37 < genehacker> molten oxide electrolysis is even simpler
20:37 < genehacker> you don't need fluoride
20:38 < fenn> uh, how do you keep your electrodes from melting without dissolving it in something?
20:39 < genehacker> well the cathode is easy, you can just use molten iron which tapers into solid iron
20:39 < genehacker> the anode is a bit harder because oxygen is evolved at it
20:39 < genehacker> but that was solved recently
20:40 < genehacker> using a solid solution of trivalent chromium and aluminum oxides: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v497/n7449/full/nature12134.html
20:42 < fenn> since the moon has a decent vacuum it should be feasible to just make a huge mass spectrometer and have an array of buckets to catch all the different isotopes
20:42 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v497/n7449/full/nature12134.html
20:42 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnature12134
20:43 < genehacker> yeah you could do that, but that's not very power efficient
20:44 < fenn> "electronically conductive solid solution of chromium(iii) and aluminium oxides in the corundum structure" as the anode. i wouldn't have come up with that just thinking about it
20:45 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20:45 < genehacker> http://donaldsadoway.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/nature12134-Sadoway.pdf
20:46 < fenn> genehacker: just heating stuff up to its boiling point doesn't sound so inefficient
20:47 < genehacker> this isn't heating it up to the boiling point
20:47 < genehacker> just hot enough to get it molten
20:47 < fenn> but you have to add current too
20:48 < fenn> i mean, melting it is doing nothing for the electrical reaction besides providing a conductive path
20:48 < genehacker> and the current keeps it molten
20:48 < fenn> s/electrical/redox/
20:50 < genehacker> The Moon: Resources, Future Development and Settlement has a nice review of the energy requirements of various material extraction approaches on the moon
20:50 < fenn> interesting cross section micrographs
20:51 < fenn> almost geological processes
20:51 < genehacker> and magma electrolysis has some of the lowest kj/kg requirements
20:51 < fenn> is energy really a scarce commodity tho
20:53 < fenn> i'm assuming you'll want huge orbiting mirrors anyway
20:53 < genehacker> when you have big inefficient dumb robots, probably
20:54 < kanzure> probably not solid mirrors because damage and stuff. so finite particle field of reflective stuff.
20:54 < fenn> i dont really see the point of replicating microelectronics on the moon, it's easier to just ship a few thousand chips up
20:55 < fenn> and you dont need semiconductors to do power electronics because it's all in a vacuum
20:55 < genehacker> yeah, hence the big dumb robots
20:56 < genehacker> the point of not send electronics up is to get full materials closure
20:56 < fenn> i know
20:57 < fenn> a) we can't do full closure on earth, and b) you have to send something up anyway
20:57 < genehacker> and to remove limits on replication rate
20:59 < fenn> yay now you have a moon covered in robots, now what
20:59 < genehacker> first the moon, then the world!
21:00 -!- tallakahath [~tallakaha@128.111.83.52] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:00 < genehacker> and if you have something that can replicate on one airless rock, it can likely replicate on other airless rocks too
21:00 < justanotheruser> "    For this thought experiment, we will imagine that your child has been kidnapped and put up for sale on “TorSlaver”. Their business plan is to kidnap children and sell them to the highest bidder, whether parent or pedophile. The winning bidder is sent the location of the child, probably bound and gagged and dumped somewhere. As long as they don’t get caught doing the kidnapping, the kidnappers can do ...
21:00 < justanotheruser> ... this again and again with complete impunity. Once someone proves it can be done, copycats will come out of the woodwork, and it won’t matter if the first mover gets caught."
21:00 < justanotheruser> kanzure: do you think this is realistic at all?
21:01 < kanzure> law enforcement already has policies against paying ransoms i think
21:01 < kanzure> so far ransomware has been having greater success though
21:01 < tallakahath> I am thorougly pleased with the quality of 'first few posts upon entering the channel' provided by this channel.
21:02 < justanotheruser> kanzure: I mean, do you actually think there is a market for kidnapped children?
21:02 < justanotheruser> Sounds like a great honeypot too
21:02 < kanzure> well there's already kidnap insurance i think
21:02 < justanotheruser> o_O
21:02 < kanzure> what you don't have any?
21:02 < justanotheruser> getting insurance for a providers kidnapping makes sense. A childs, not so much
21:02 < fenn> genehacker: there's a huge difference between the composition of the moon and say, a carbonaceous chondrite
21:03 < justanotheruser> "oh no my child just got kidnapped, but I got $500k so theres that"
21:03 < fenn> genehacker: chemistry optimized for one will be totally useless on the other
21:03 < kanzure> justanotheruser: the insurance is for paying the ransoms and post-kidnapping trauma therapy
21:03 < genehacker> true, but I was more referring to mercury
21:03 < kanzure> because after that your kid is fucked up and never has sex or something
21:03 < justanotheruser> kanzure: ohh... that makes sense
21:04 < fenn> genehacker: oh, i was figuring the asteroid belt was the eventual destination
21:05 < fenn> tallakahath: welcome to the nerdiest channel on freenode
21:05 < justanotheruser> irc is for nerds
21:05 < justanotheruser> freenode is the nerd network
21:06 < justanotheruser> ##hplusroadmap is the nerdiest channel on freenode
21:06 < genehacker> oh dang 22% water in carbonaceous chrondites
21:06 < genehacker> that's pretty nice
21:06 < justanotheruser> does that mean the biggest nerds in the world reside here?
21:06 < kanzure> definitely by mass
21:06 < justanotheruser> LOL
21:06 < justanotheruser> 900lb nerds in here?
21:06 < fenn> they don't call it the nerd singularity for nothin
21:06 < tallakahath> Eh I think #trains can give ya'll a run for your money
21:06 < tallakahath> But I will require more data points.
21:07 < justanotheruser> /msg #trains CHOOOOO CHOOOOO
21:07 < genehacker> but the point is if you can get molten oxide electrolysis working, you can extract materials from pretty much anything rocky
21:07 < fenn> well, tell that to the open source ecology people
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21:09 < kanzure> 21:06 <+_46bit> Okay I'm just going to pretend elliptic curve point addition isn't commutative.
21:09 < kanzure> 21:08 <+_46bit> Oh god, that fixes everything.
21:09 < kanzure> 21:08  * _46bit goes back to fitful sleep
21:11 < justanotheruser> tallakahath: I just joined
21:12 < justanotheruser> and some guy welcomed me and asked me about my first train ride and made the bot post train ASCII
21:12 < justanotheruser> this channels awesome
21:12 < genehacker> hmmm, I wonder if this works here
21:12 < genehacker> sl
21:12 < genehacker> darn
21:13 < fenn> irc bots get annoying after a while
21:13 < kanzure> rip gradstudentbot
21:14 < fenn> http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Aluminum_Extractor i wonder what the illustration is based on
21:14 < fenn> they don't seem to have settled on an actual design yet
21:14 < kanzure> hasn't it been like a decade by now
21:15 < fenn> a lot of these things were low priority research projects
21:15 < kanzure> page started 2011
21:15 < kanzure> so.. an internet decade, maybe.
21:16 < tallakahath> justanotheruser: Yeah lexande is pretty awesome
21:16 < tallakahath> (I assume he's the one you ran into)
21:17 < justanotheruser> tallakahath: yeah... I don't want to be mean, but is he autistic or something?
21:17 < genehacker> well at the very least they should build modelica models of everything, because then they could start simulating stuff
21:17 < kanzure> jmodelica if you want to be evil
21:18 < justanotheruser> tallakahath: hes really nice but I was a bit surprised to get 10 questions about my train experiences before I said anything
21:18 < kanzure> justanotheruser: you're asking if a channel about trains on irc (on freenode of all places) has an autistic person?
21:19 < justanotheruser> lol...
21:19 < tallakahath> justanotheruser: Not that I've noticed, though my baseline for 'is X autistic' is rather... skewed.
21:19 < tallakahath> Its more a matter of context - you've joined #trains out of nowhere, so you're going to get queried.
21:19 < justanotheruser> I'm loling so hard kanzure
21:19 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure everyone in here can qualify as autistic so what the hell do you expect in #trains
21:19 < justanotheruser> really?
21:20 < kanzure> says one irc user to another
21:20 < justanotheruser> kanzure: I think one thing autistic people can't do is do presentations in front of audiences
21:20 < kanzure> this place is more aspergered up than #wrongplanet even
21:21 < fenn> hard to say; 90% of the lurkers here never say anything
21:21 < justanotheruser> kanzure: are you diagnosed with aspergers?
21:22 < justanotheruser> or are you just exagguration
21:22 < justanotheruser> *ing
21:22 < kanzure> yeah, probably. the last guy who checked me out was super lazy.
21:22 < kanzure> when i got an adhd diagnosis when i was young it was like 36 hours of testing over a few days.
21:23 < justanotheruser> I see
21:23 < fenn> psychiatry is so full of crap
21:23 < justanotheruser> so you're an aspie-savant
21:24 < kanzure> who knows
21:25 < justanotheruser> idk, find the autistic savant sequence
21:25 < fenn> the field might actually make some progress if they used objective tests to make their diagnoses
21:26 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4JhruinbWc
21:26 < yoleaux> How Differential Gear works (BEST Tutorial) - YouTube
21:27 < fenn> daniel amen does SPECT scans to determine which brain regions are malfunctioning in his patients
21:27 < justanotheruser> I have a screenshot of your slide on how to make a h+ lab. I didn't know what to do with it, so I took a screenshot proving I took a screenshot and uploaded it to imgur https://i.imgur.com/eNt7TlP.png
21:28 < kanzure> you are extremely productive
21:28 < justanotheruser> lol
21:29 < fenn> so meta
21:29 -!- ryankarason [~rak@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:29 < justanotheruser> now I'm going to bookmark this imgur link so I don't forget
21:30 < kanzure> justanotheruser: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/diy-transhuman-tech.pdf
21:30 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/caltech_presentation.pdf
21:30 < kanzure> what's wrong with people? screenshots of screenshots on imgur? pffft
21:30 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
21:30 < kanzure> how about original source material
21:30 < justanotheruser> kanzure: thats how I save everything I need to remember
21:31 < kanzure> ouch
21:31 < fenn> i can't tell if he's doing a satire or not
21:32 < justanotheruser> fenn: I'll note that you think I'm being sarcastic https://i.imgur.com/j9mGFHc.png
21:32 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:33 < fenn> when i was 12 i would save screenshots of text like that
21:33 < justanotheruser> I am 12
21:34 < justanotheruser> so I guess I'll be at your level when you're however old you are :D
21:35 < kanzure> when i was 12 i think i was mark karpeles
21:36 < justanotheruser> o_O
21:36  * justanotheruser notes that kanzure is a time traveler
21:36 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/fenn.PNG well that's not right
21:36 < justanotheruser> https://i.imgur.com/PFBVEtw.png
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21:37 < kanzure> quickest way to do an atomically precise cake slice?
21:37 < kanzure> fib?
21:37 < fenn> make your cake out of self assembling protein nanocrystals?
21:38 < kanzure> okay then
21:38 < tallakahath> CNC
21:39 < fenn> and cleave the crystal
21:39 < fenn> i was going to say single crystal silicon
21:40 < genehacker> make an atomically precise cake
21:40 < genehacker> I'd suggest DNA or CD-MOF
21:40 < fenn> this is not really atomically precise http://phys.org/news/2011-02-kilogram-approaching-avogadro-constant-enriched.html
21:41 < genehacker> http://www.internetchemie.info/news/2010/sep10/images/edible-cd-mof.jpg
21:42 < genehacker> it is not often you see a research paper explicitly call for everclear
21:42 < genehacker> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/anie.201002343/abstract
21:42 < kanzure> .title
21:42 < yoleaux> Metal–Organic Frameworks from Edible Natural Products - Smaldone - 2010 - Angewandte Chemie International Edition - Wiley Online Library
21:43 < kanzure> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/anie.201002343/abstract
21:44 < tallakahath> Oh, I was hoping this would be a cheaper way to make organometallic precursors/an excuse to have proper everclearin lab.
21:45 < kanzure> he is doing molecular nanotech things
21:49 < fenn> make a cake from graphene
21:50 < genehacker> is graphene infused caramel ok?
21:50 < fenn> caramel is sort of the opposite of what i was going for
21:53 < fenn> genehacker: you remember the dna origami counting tiles right? there was a variation that assembled a recursive/hierarchical structure
21:53 < genehacker> vaguely
21:54 < fenn> it seems like one could build a large structure with a single well defined edge using this template
21:56 < genehacker> we'll show those DNA nanotech people, we'll show them
21:56 < fenn> .title http://www.pnas.org/content/106/15/6054/F5.expansion.html
21:56 < yoleaux> An information-bearing seed for nucleating algorithmic self-assembly
21:56 < fenn> but in 3d
21:57 < genehacker> I bet they don't have to deal with heat dissipation like we do
21:57 < fenn> who is "we"
21:58 < fenn> bulk synthesis people?
22:00 -!- Maelstro [~beatzebub@S0106b81619e8ecee.gv.shawcable.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:00 < genehacker> an assortment of different researchers
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22:08 < fenn> this is what i was remembering http://fennetic.net/irc/self_assembling_fractal_antenna.gif
22:10 < genehacker> well toth-fejel had some conceptual self-assembling circuit designs for logic gates and what not in their niac paper
22:11 -!- peteros [~asakharov@24.60.79.55] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:12 < fenn> cute http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/06/nanoscale-etching-of-3d-fractal.html
22:14 < genehacker> www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/final_report/883Toth-Fejel.pdf
22:18 < fenn> i liked the moravec/forward "bush robot" http://www.frc.ri.cmu.edu/users/hpm/project.archive/robot.papers/1999/NASA.report.99/9901.NASA.S3.html
22:20 < fenn> can't say i ever thought the toth-fejel paper was at all practical
22:21 < fenn> "look, cubes!"
22:21 < genehacker> they did seriously consider how to replicate the control system though
22:25 < fenn> "to achieve closure, self-replicating machines must be simple and in a sense rather primitive"
22:26 < fenn> why would they say that
22:26 < fenn> show me a simple replicator
22:28 -!- sheena2 [~home@50.66.72.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
22:29 < kjskjskjs> fenn: there are some fairly small bacterial genomes, no?
22:29 < fenn> not any with "closure" that is to say auxotrophy
22:29 < kjskjskjs> .g auxotrophy
22:29 < yoleaux> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxotrophy
22:29 < kjskjskjs> .wik auxotrophy
22:29 < yoleaux> "Auxotrophy (Gr. αὐξάνω "to increase"; τροφή "nourishment") is the inability of an organism to synthesize a particular organic compound required for its growth (as defined by IUPAC)." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxotrophy
22:30 < kjskjskjs> do you mean "without auxotrophy"?
22:30 < fenn> i guess i meant autotrophy
22:30 < kjskjskjs> .wik autotrophy
22:30 < yoleaux> "An autotroph[α] ("self-feeding", from the Greek autos "self" and trophe "nourishing") or "producer", is an organism that produces complex organic compounds (such as carbohydrates, fats, and proteins) from simple substances present in its surroundings, generally using energy from light (photosynthesis) or inorganic chemical reactions ( …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotrophy
22:31 < kjskjskjs> hmm, I thought autotrophy had to do with where your energy comes from
22:31 < fenn> yeah now i'm confused
22:32 < kjskjskjs> I think all currently existing organisms require nutrients produced by other organisms
22:32 < fenn> Auxotrophy is the opposite of prototrophy, which is characterized by the ability to synthesize all the compounds needed for growth.
22:32 < kjskjskjs> from what?
22:33 < fenn> from inorganics?
22:33 < kjskjskjs> has any such organism ever existed?
22:34 < kjskjskjs> I mean there are acetylene molecules between the stars
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22:35 < kjskjskjs> .t http://www.keckobservatory.org/article.php?id=39
22:35 < yoleaux> kjskjskjs: Sorry, I don't know a timezone by that name.
22:35 < kjskjskjs> .title http://www.keckobservatory.org/article.php?id=39
22:35 < yoleaux> | W. M. Keck Observatory
22:36 < fenn> i used to be into panspermia theory and the work of fred hoyle and chandra wickramasinghe
22:36 < kjskjskjs> .title http://web.archive.org/web/20070223211405/http://www.keckobservatory.org/article.php?id=39
22:36 < yoleaux> W. M. Keck Observatory
22:36 < fenn> anyway i get the impression that the word "prototroph" was only used in studies trying to work out what vitamins were
22:36 < kjskjskjs> fucking lame webmasters
22:37 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:37 < kjskjskjs> "The two organic compounds found -- acetylene and hydrogen cyanide -- are commonly found in our own solar system, such as the atmospheres of the giant gas planets, the icy surfaces of comets, and the atmosphere of Saturn’s largest moon, Titan."
22:37 < fenn> but there are definitely complexes of organisms that can reproduce from trace minerals and nitrate enriched media
22:37 < kjskjskjs> "If you add hydrogen cyanide, acetylene and water together in a test tube, and give them an appropriate surface on which to be concentrated and react, you'll get a slew of organic compounds including amino acids and a DNA purine base called adenine"
22:38 < kjskjskjs> oh really?  that don't need any organic vitamins at all?
22:38 < kjskjskjs> I guess I was figuring that even precambrian life had ample supplies of pre-existing organic compounds so it probably didn't need to evolve the ability to live without them
22:39 < kjskjskjs> but I guess hoping that your environment will provide you enough amino acids to live is suboptimal and the actual ecosystem we live in doesn't do that, instead depending on nitrogen-fixing bacteria
22:40 < kjskjskjs> mycoplasma genitalium is 582,970 base pairs
22:40 < fenn> mycoplasma is basically a virus
22:41 < fenn> pseudomonas is more realistic as an independent organism
22:41 < kjskjskjs> it is?  it can't reproduce without eukaryotic cells to attack?
22:41 < fenn> correct
22:41 < fenn> it needs all sorts of "growth factors"
22:42 < fenn> "Cyanobacteria such as Spirulina (Arthrospira) are also photoautotrophs, able to use CO2 as their sole carbon source and light as their energy source."
22:43 < fenn> we grew vats of stuff with only light and minerals added
22:43 < kjskjskjs> neat
22:44 < kjskjskjs> so (some?) cyanobacteria are prototrophs
22:46 < kjskjskjs> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22675597 says the A. platensis C1 genome contains 6,089,210 bp
22:46 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.4056%2Fsigs.2525955
22:46 < kjskjskjs> that's a bit under a megabyte
22:46 < fenn> since most of earth is roaring with diverse molecules and life forms, only "extremophiles" will be adapted to environments that are relatively simple in their chemistry
22:47 < kjskjskjs> right, I'm surprised that even they are, though
22:47 < kjskjskjs> since earth always has been
22:47 < kjskjskjs> but I guess not all of earth
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22:48 < fenn> in terms of macroscopic amounts of chemicals, i don't think at any given time there would have been huge quantities of adenine falling from the sky
22:48 < kjskjskjs> yeah
22:49 < fenn> it doesn't take much to destroy complex organics either; prolonged ultraviolet light, an oxidizing environment
22:49 < kjskjskjs> yes
22:49 < kjskjskjs> this is one reason the interstellar acetylene surprised me
22:49 < fenn> did earth have CO2 before it was bombarded with carbonaceous comets?
22:49 < kjskjskjs> even though that's typically a reducing environment
22:49 < kjskjskjs> I don't know
22:50 < kjskjskjs> I mean presumably that depends on whether it existed before that
22:51 < fenn> But Chandra, if the interstellar material is organic, if that is true, then, there is so much of it that this will be better precursor material for biology than to do it on the earth in Urey-Miller fashion." That was the unguarded remark. That set him off and then he must have looked through hundreds and hundreds of spectra to fit the infrared data among organics. And then quite suddenly as soon
22:51 < fenn> as he moved to biological specimens, that fit it better than anything else.
22:52 < kjskjskjs> ?
22:52 < kjskjskjs> oh I see
22:52 < kjskjskjs> but the earth wasn't an oxidizing environment either at the time
22:53 < kjskjskjs> we can blame cyanobacteria for that
22:53 < fenn> they looked at spectra of interstellar dust clouds and the only thing that fit over the entire spectrum was dried bacterial spores
22:53 < kjskjskjs> haha, nice
22:53 < fenn> so the mind-blowing conclusion is that the universe is just overflowing with life
22:53 < kjskjskjs> I didn't realize there was actual evidence for panspermia
22:54 < fenn> testable predictions you mean
22:54 < fenn> i think it's highly suspect that the earth was immediately colonized with life as soon as it was possible
22:54 < kjskjskjs> well, was it?
22:55 < fenn> yeah
22:55 < kjskjskjs> I mean clearly our kind of life
22:55 < kjskjskjs> but I will be surprised if we don't find non-RNA-based life somewhere that RNA and DNA are too unstable
22:56 < kjskjskjs> e.g. due to temperature
22:59 < fenn> i read some theory about the most prevalent environment for life was in the outer layers of a dying red dwarf
22:59 < kjskjskjs> ...whoa.
22:59 < fenn> not sure if i believe it though, especially since that was before we started discovering all these planets
23:00 < kjskjskjs> Man, we think *our* gravity-well problem is bad...
23:00 < kjskjskjs> getting out of a dying red dwarf presumably requires nuclear rockets, no?
23:01 < fenn> this whole thing was pretty confusing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_rain_in_Kerala
23:01 < genehacker> I think you mean planets surrounding red dwarfs
23:03 < genehacker> except that: http://www.iflscience.com/space/potential-life-red-dwarf-planets-peril-due-extreme-space-weather
23:10 < fenn> paperbot: http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0601022
23:10 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1007%2Fs10509-005-9025-4
23:10 < fenn> bah
23:13 < fenn> paperbot: http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1008/1008.4960.pdf
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--- Log closed Mon Oct 27 00:00:31 2014