--- Log opened Tue Oct 28 00:00:32 2014
00:01 < fenn> some ranting about alagebrium and free markets https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2006/09/alteon-alagebri-1.php
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00:48 < delinquentme> To say up till 2:30 am to ask questions on COMSOL HPC COMPUTINGGGG
00:48 < delinquentme> or not
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06:35 < kanzure> well looks like he didn't make it
06:51 < kanzure> .title http://onerng.info/
06:51 < yoleaux> OneRNG - Hardware Random Number Generator
06:51 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8519801
06:51 < yoleaux> OneRNG – Open Hardware Random Number Generator | Hacker News
06:55 < kanzure> the comments on http://avc.com/2014/10/sidechains/ get a little curious... "well since developers wont be able to trick users into financial vaporware as much, they wont be as incentivized to not care about bitcoin and this is bad" wut?
06:58 < justanotheruser> " but computers have too few sources of truly random data for the demands we place upon them"
06:58 < justanotheruser> Can't we just keep reusing the same random data?
06:59 < justanotheruser> kanzure: seems to be implying scammers are good for bitcoin
07:00 < kanzure> reusing the same random data is pretty bad
07:00 < kanzure> it's like generating a private key, then telling someone the exact entropy you used
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08:15 < kanzure> dingo: good reasons to avoid ncurses?
08:17 < kanzure> anyone have a good command line torrent client or daemon thingy?
08:18 < kanzure> something suitable for servers
08:18 < kanzure> for some reason libtorrent's example client has a gui? http://libtorrent.org/client_test.html
08:19 < eudoxia> it looks like a hex editor
08:19 < yoleaux> 23 Oct 2014 12:01Z <kanzure> eudoxia: https://github.com/eudoxia0/corona how can you tolerate waiting around for vagrant?
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08:21 < kanzure> https://github.com/fagga/transmission-remote-cli
08:21 < kanzure> "Given the messy implementation, adding functionality either causes new bugs that nobody wants to fix or it adds cruft that I won't be able to understand two weeks later because there's already so much cruft that mostly works but without any regards to the bigger picture. (Also, there is not much of a bigger picture, it's hacks all the way down (and maybe even up). Imagine a house that is hold together by the corpses in the drywall.)"
08:22 < kanzure> well that's not encouraging
08:23 < eudoxia> >a single 3700-line file
08:23 < kanzure> pirates are bad programmers?
08:23 < kanzure> who knew
08:23 < eudoxia> kanzure: what do you mean waiting around for vagrant? as in, why am i not using docker?
08:24 < kanzure> not specifically docker
08:24 < eudoxia> it doesn't really take too long
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08:24 < kanzure> well?
08:25 < ParahSailin_> pretty good auction http://auctions.tigergroup.com/cgi-bin/mnlist.cgi?tigergrp132/category/ALL
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08:27 < dingo> < kanzure> dingo: good reasons to avoid ncurses?
08:27 < dingo> no, just tedious, forces you to code like its 1980's
08:27 < kanzure> "By default, aria2 opens at most 100 files mentioned in .torrent file, and directly writes to and reads from these files."
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08:32 < kanzure> other thing:
08:33 < ParahSailin_> this was a pretty cool thing when i went to the preview http://auctions.tigergroup.com/cgi-bin/mnlist.cgi?tigergrp132/447
08:33 < kanzure> how do you know whether or not to pull or rebuild a vagrant box (or docker container for that matter) when you switch to a different git branch on a project? assume that you had a previous vagrant box that was built from a previous branch correctly.
08:33 < kanzure> s/previous branch/previous commit
08:34 < eudoxia> you diff the Vagrantfile?
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08:38 < kanzure> i was hoping for some more automated solution
08:39 < kanzure> for example, in rails land, developers came up with some nifty scripts to automatically switch out databases between branches so that schema changes in one branch don't impact your work on another.
08:40 < eudoxia> wait, are you talking about regular Vagrant or Corona?
08:41 < kanzure> actually i'm talking about docker
08:41 < kanzure> but the same problem exists when using vagrant
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08:50 < kanzure> i are smart: http://stackoverflow.com/a/26612694/687783
08:57 < kanzure> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8520954 "Technically your browser downloads content of course, but provided the content is only viewed whilst you are in the browser and not retained following the end of your browser session (or were merely retained in your cache), this would not constitute a download for the purposes of putting a user outside the exception to infringement under Art 5(1)."
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09:42 < nmz787_i1> at first glance the name of this band appears 'like Vietnamese' to me "Tír na nÓg" though it is actually Irish
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09:44 < kanzure> https://github.com/gordonwritescode/coalescent "express-like framework for p2p applications"
09:47 < heath> don't they call that OTP?
09:47 < heath> if they mean 'express-like' to mean easy
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09:48 < heath> that and/or riak_core
09:49 < eudoxia> but this is for node.js, so if you write an app with it, it has HN front page potential
09:50 < kanzure> https://medium.com/@abrkn/partial-payments-ripple-stellar-vulnerability-in-the-wild-29aaefd8a7ac
09:50 < kanzure> https://forum.ripple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8135&start=10
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09:54 < kanzure> haha https://github.com/ripple/gatewayd/issues/186 "for now this is not supported" but it was enabled?
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10:33 < kanzure> "plasma deposition of metals onto frameworks/scaffolds"
10:40 < heath> curl https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/japan-wants-bitcoin-friendly-country/ | unfluff | python -m json.tool | pygmentize -l javascript
10:41  * heath needs a better way of doing this
10:44 < heath> https://github.com/ageitgey/node-unfluff for anyone not familiar with unfluff
10:47 < heath> "platform for trading on the forex market" https://github.com/slawekj/wolf
10:50 < heath> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SkdfdXWYaI
10:50 < yoleaux> Using Python to Code by Voice - YouTube
10:50 < heath> https://github.com/tgrosinger/aenea-grammars
10:50 < heath> https://github.com/tgrosinger/dotfiles/blob/master/.vimrc
10:50 < heath> last 3 links all related
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11:16 < kanzure> https://soundcloud.com/gai-barone/gai-barone-patterns-097
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12:17 < nmz787_i1> I don't trust any of these 'interesting stuff' extractors...
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12:17 < nmz787_i1> for stupid stuff, sure... maybe for a quick glance at the onset of datamining, but I certainly wouldn't trust that any of them were 100%
12:18 < nmz787_i1> for extracting info from scientific stuff, with nuanced language, etc
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12:19 < kanzure> there should be an epistemology of nuancy
12:19 < kanzure> or a philosophy at least
12:26 < kanzure> 34 minutes is okay https://soundcloud.com/gai-barone/gai-barone-patterns-096
12:27 < kanzure> but i can't identify it.. so..
12:40 < nmz787_i1> wow, just found someone responded to a years-old researchGate paper request... am very happy to find it
12:41 < nmz787_i1> 'A Differential Medium for the isolation of Kluyveromyces marxianus and Kluyveromyces lactis from Dairy Products'
12:46 < nmz787_i1> paperbot: http://http://dx.doi.org/10.1039/c4lc00740a
12:46 < nmz787_i1> paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1039/c4lc00740a
12:46 < paperbot> ConnectionError: HTTPConnectionPool(host='http', port=80): Max retries exceeded with url: //dx.doi.org/10.1039/c4lc00740a (Caused by <class 'socket.gaierror'>: [Errno -2] Name or service not known) (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/adapters.py", line 375, in send)
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12:48 < nmz787_i1> paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1039/c4lc00740a
12:49 < nmz787_i1> paperbot: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/2014/LC/C4LC00740A
12:50 < nmz787_i1> hah, DB-9 microfluidic connector http://static.wixstatic.com/media/aec75c_2de26867692742a69f9798fd389569a3.jpg_srz_p_201_251_75_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srz
12:51 < nmz787_i1> paperbot: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2014/lc/c3lc51360b#!divAbstract
12:52 < nmz787_i1> I think I killed paperbot somehow
12:52  * nmz787_i1 tears up
12:55 < nmz787_i1> paperbot: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/2014/LC/C4LC00833B#!divAbstract
12:57 < nmz787_i1> kanzure: this is a decent overview of the current state of the art, I guess... http://www.microtas2014.org/program/MicroTAS2014_TechnicalProgram.pdf
12:57 < nmz787_i1> it's a really long doc
13:01 < nmz787_i1> https://aiche.confex.com/data/abstract/aiche/2014/Paper_389068_abstract_56040_0.docx
13:01 < nmz787_i1> ' A Rapid Microfluidic Assay for Optimization of Bacterial Electroporation Conditions'
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13:10 < kanzure> you know, i think paperbot might not be asynchronous
13:10 < kanzure> did anyone ever check
13:10 < kanzure> paperbot may be missing messages while it's busy downloading
13:14 < nmz787_i1> I didn't check, as I assumed the calling would be done in phenny or something
13:14 < nmz787_i1> the IRC code that isn't in paperbot
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13:55 < kanzure> yeah paperbot never had a good separation of what was phenny-only versus paperbot-only
13:55 < kanzure> for example, most of paperbot v1 was trapped in a phenny-specific function that called phenny-specific functions
13:56 < kanzure> but if there's no irc component, is it really paperbot? i would have to call it something like paperguts.
13:56 < kanzure> and then paperbot would just be the irc-framework-specific parts that call the guts.
14:00 < nmz787_i1> paperget
14:01 < nmz787_i1> 'like wget, but for papers'
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14:06 < nmz787_i1> it is perplexing that the guy who started writing Python (named Guido) does not look like someone from the 'jersey shore' scene... for some reason anyone named 'Guido' seems like they should have a tan, gelled hair, and a muscle shirt with short pants and boating shoes.
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14:33 < ParahSailin_> spain conquered the netherlands once, so people in the netherlands are sometimes named spanish things
14:42 < nmz787_i1> well supposedly it comes from italians immitating british people immitating older british royalty or something
15:17 < nmz787_i1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_College
15:17 < nmz787_i1> .wik invisible college
15:17 < yoleaux> "The Invisible College has been described as a precursor group to the Royal Society of London, consisting of a number of natural philosophers around Robert Boyle. It has been suggested that other members included prominent figures later closely concerned with the Royal Society; but several groups preceded the formation of the Royal Society, …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_college
15:17 < nmz787_i1> their logo looks like a pre-industrialized lab-bus
15:17 < nmz787_i1> 'chariot of laboratories'
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15:35 < fenn> huh. "dev/random provides random numbers by directly hashing the internal entropy pool. Each use of /dev/random depletes the data available, and if the entropy sources cannot deliver sufficient data, your request to read /dev/random will block - it will wait until more entropy is available."
15:36 < chris_99> what's odd about that?
15:36 < nmz787_i1> hmm
15:36 < nmz787_i1> ddos waiting to happen somewhere?
15:36 < fenn> "urandom does exactly the same as /dev/random, except that when the entropy pool is close to exhaustion it will instead start to deliver data from a software device, a PRNG that has been seeded from 'good' random data."
15:37 < chris_99> you can cat stuff to /dev/random iirc
15:37 < chris_99> to help it
15:38 < fenn> as mentioned earlier up the page, most servers don't have keyboards or mice, so their entropy pool must be constantly starved for randomness
15:40 < chris_99> vm's especially i guess
15:40 < nmz787_i1> aren't connections from the real world random?
15:40 < nmz787_i1> er
15:40 < nmz787_i1> um
15:40 < fenn> sometimes
15:40 < nmz787_i1> well i guess people have intent to connect to a server
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15:41 < fenn> but if an attacker is purposefully draining entropy faster than /dev/random can generate it from his connections...
15:41 < nmz787_i1> but, the time or frequency of connection doesn't seem predicatble or immediately deterministic
15:43 < fenn> say you connect to generate-ssh-key.com/badcode.php?num_keys=99999  there's only one connection but it has to serve up 99999 doses of randomness
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15:44 < jackybgood> paperbot http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/pdf/10.2514/6.2014-4470
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15:47 < fenn> 3D printing in zero G, is that really a challenge
15:48 < jackybgood> For my interests it is.
15:48 < fenn> what about 3D printing upside down, or in stormy seas
15:49 < jackybgood> They can print in gels to keep it steady
15:49 < fenn> yeah i saw that
15:50 < jackybgood> They need 3d printing in space. I'm just trying to do it differently
15:50 < fenn> two photon laser cure gel would be a thing...
15:51 < jackybgood> I'm looking into it now
15:51 < fenn> it doesnt exist yet
15:51 < fenn> i hereby bequeath this potentially infinitely valuable idea unto thee, jackybgood
15:51 < jackybgood> But there has to have been something written about it, right?
15:52 < jackybgood> How would you do it
15:52 < fenn> well, two photon absorption boosts the apparent energy per photon, so you need to use a laser of about twice the wavelength you would normally use to cure your resin
15:53 < jackybgood> Is resin in space a good idea?
15:53 < fenn> it also requires a lot more power since only a fraction of incident photons are absorbed twice before being released
15:54 < jackybgood> I see it as more of a safety hazard. So you would be using twice as much power to do 3d printing with 2 photon laser curing?
15:54 < fenn> free liquids can be managed fairly effectively through surface tension and clever container design
15:54 < fenn> more than twice as much power
15:55 < jackybgood> Which would make it more expensive
15:55 < fenn> yes, but, you could print free floating structures at extremely high resolution
15:56 < jackybgood> I don't think NASA wants to spend that much more out of their budget, but I'll try and figure it out.
15:56 < fenn> oh are you actually working on 3d printers for space?
15:56 < jackybgood> Not yet. I'm about to go into college :P
15:57 < jackybgood> But I want to
15:57 < fenn> well a lot can change in 4 years
15:57 < fenn> or however long you plan to spend in college :)
15:57 < jackybgood> Which is why I'm trying to pick up the pieces as fast as I can
15:58 < jackybgood> To get picked up by a startup I know
16:00 < jackybgood> I want to print using synthetic biology/chemistry
16:00 < fenn> uh oh
16:00 < fenn> do you know jordan miller?
16:00 < jackybgood> no
16:01 < jackybgood> His work sounds cool though
16:02 < fenn> here's some pretty pictures and some spam https://www.adafruit.com/blog/2014/06/19/jordan-miller-billion-cell-construct/
16:02 < fenn> paperbot: http://www.plosbiology.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1001882&representation=PDF
16:03 < fenn> paperbot is on vacation
16:04 < jackybgood> Now, if I can do that in space, with filaments found on other planets... I'm golden
16:05 < jrayhawk_> .title http://y2u.be/jHMmMgdcOSU whoops
16:05 < yoleaux> jrayhawk_: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed.
16:06 < fenn> i saw somewhere they had grown a tooth from some sort of 3d printed biopolymer scaffolding that had been implanted into a mouse
16:08 < jackybgood> They made a mouse grow teeth?
16:09 < chris_99> don't mice already have teeth?
16:09 < fenn> no they implanted a tooth-shaped scaffold seeded with osteoblasts and something like stem cells(?) into a mouse's back, which hardened over the course of several months, then they took it out of the mouse's belly and implanted it into its jaw
16:11 < fenn> looks like there is a lot of work in this area
16:12 < jackybgood> That's messed up
16:12 < fenn> .title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24295512
16:12 < yoleaux> Three-dimensional printed multiphase scaffolds for regeneration of ... - PubMed - NCBI
16:15 < fenn> so you were interested in making polymers with bacteria or what?
16:16 < jackybgood> Specifically, I would be trying to use Martian or Moon soils to 3d print structures and objects
16:16 < fenn> where does synthetic biology come into that
16:17 < jackybgood> This is a fairly brand new, uneducated plan I've had for about a week
16:17 < fenn> genehacker and i were just talking about the freitas lunar replicating factory, molten oxide electrolysis, toth-fejel mechanical replicator, dna origami computational tiling
16:18 < jackybgood> Haven't heard of any of that before
16:19 < jackybgood> I was thinking I could print using electrospinning in microgravity
16:19 < fenn> electrospinning is pretty low resolution
16:20 < fenn> also, the moon and mars aren't microgravity
16:21 < jackybgood> I suppose I was assuming the astronauts would be printing in orbit, for repairing equipment with soils they pick up along the way. Doesn't make as much sense now.
16:22 < jackybgood> They'd be printing on the ground, probably. They still need to print objects that don't always have the best balance, so printing while keeping the object extremely still is crucial
16:22 < jackybgood> I thought electrospinning was very high res, at least for 3d printing?
16:26 < fenn> jackybgood: at least skim over these http://www.rfreitas.com/Astro/GrowingLunarFactory1981.htm http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/ http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/final_report/883Toth-Fejel.pdf http://www.dna.caltech.edu/Papers/origami_nucleation2009.pdf
16:28 < fenn> you can print support material to keep oddly shaped objects from falling over, though usually they stick to whatever you're printing them on
16:30 < jackybgood> These are great!
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16:36 < jackybgood> What field studies these applications?
16:36 < jackybgood> mechanical/chemical/material engineering?
16:37 < fenn> the space colonization stuff was funded by nasa institute for advanced concepts, and winfree is in the molecular biology department
16:37 < fenn> half of freitas's stuff is operations research (that's a field of study)
16:38 < fenn> "nanotechnology" became a buzzword that has been applied to a zillion things, but originally it was just chemistry, computer science, and physics
16:39 < jackybgood> Now there's biochemistry, too
16:39 < fenn> take it from me, it's extremely easy to get distracted in biochemistry
16:40 < fenn> have you seen the full KEGG reaction map of the human metabolism?
16:40 < jackybgood> I can see that. I haven't signed up for classes yet but I was thinking dual major biological and chemical engineering
16:40 < jackybgood> Nope
16:42 < fenn> well anyway it's a huge spaghetti mess of arrows and boxes that covers an entire wall
16:42 < fenn> i think this is it http://www.genome.jp/kegg/atlas.html
16:43 < fenn> they tend to shield students from the horrible reality
16:43 < jackybgood> I've heard of kegg but have not yet used it.
16:44 < fenn> "the krebs cycle" "the citric acid cycle" "the central dogma" oh it's so neat and tidy
16:44 < jackybgood> :-O it's such a massive web
16:45 < jackybgood> But I agree, it's very well organized.
16:45 < catern> can I get this in single image form, I'd rather view it locally
16:46 < jackybgood> It's interactive, so you have to choose which map to see. It's very complex
16:46 < fenn> i dont know catern; if you find an image please let me know
16:46 < catern> i've definitely seen it before, but neglected to save it
16:48 < fenn> jackybgood: i'd like to make a similar map for mechanical engineering and inorganic chemistry
16:48 < jackybgood> I'm trying to program one in Python, but first I have to learn the full picture
16:49 < justanotheruser> jackybgood: you planning on making a synthesis graph?
16:50 < jackybgood> Mapping out the receptors for drug delivery
16:50 < justanotheruser> oh
16:50 < jackybgood> That's just the first step, as there are so many combinations of receptors
16:51 < jackybgood> I will have to break it down for each step in determining if a drug works or not
16:52 < fenn> i'm 100% certain this already exists
16:52 < fenn> how about this one for example https://pypi.python.org/pypi/OpenDiscovery/2.2.2
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16:56 < fenn> anyway drugs do more than just interact with receptors
16:57 < jackybgood> Right there are many protocols that come into play, and I'm trying to map them out
16:58 < fenn> i'm not really sure what counts as a drug either; apparently concentrated fish oil is a drug
16:58 < fenn> now genetically engineered antibodies are drugs
16:59 < fenn> "Biologics for Treating Rheumatoid Arthritis - Enbrel, Humira ..."
16:59 < Lemminkainen> yet you're not allowed to make Remicade, Enbrel, etc at home
17:00 < fenn> they're patented. is there some other reason you're "not allowed"?
17:00 < fenn> what if you're naturally allergic to interleukin-a or whatever the target is
17:00 < Lemminkainen> if you're naturally allergic to IL-A(?) then I'd say you probably got bigger problems to worry about
17:01 < fenn> "FDA has stated that it has not determined how interchangeability can be established for complex proteins" so that could be a reason, since they can't verify that it's safe if they don't know what it is
17:01 < Lemminkainen> ha
17:02 < fenn> what really chaps my ass is that things like HGH are controlled substances
17:03 < Lemminkainen> there's a cream for that
17:03 < jackybgood> Is it agnostic?
17:05 < fenn> "in Colorado, using human growth hormone illegally is a misdemeanor but possessing it is a felony."
17:06 < fenn> so just be real quick about it, see
17:06 < fenn> myeah see
17:06  * fenn does best al capone impression
17:08 < fenn> maybe we can convince the supreme court that since proteins are just sequences of letters, bioengineering is protected under the first amendment
17:09 < jackybgood> They might buy it
17:12 < fenn> my religious practice is to rub deer antler velvet all over my body
17:12 < jackybgood> The purpose being...?
17:13 < fenn> supposedly it's full of growth factors such as IGF-1 (nevermind that deer are a different species)
17:16 < jackybgood> That's disturbing
17:17 < fenn> IGF-1 has been studied for improving repair of connective tissue (cartilage, tendons, muscles) and since deer antler velvet contains this protein, hucksters have developed an industry around it. but IGF-1 is a protein and can't survive the digestion process, and won't get into your blood just by spraying it on
17:17 < fenn> it probably does have testosterone and other deer hormones in it though
17:18 < jackybgood> So my dad should stop spraying his face with deer urine every time he goes hunting?
17:19 < fenn> whatever gets your rocks off
17:20 < jackybgood> Gross. Knowing a bit of biology can really help
17:23 < Lemminkainen> fenn you should try taking your velvet rectally for maximal absorption
17:30 < fenn> i'll keep that in mind. also i'll try to get it as fresh as possible, assuming the deer cooperates
17:30 < fenn> knowing a bit of biology can really help!
17:32 < Lemminkainen> might help to administer it in an Everclear extraction
17:33 < fenn> do i administer the everclear to the deer or to myself?
17:33 < fenn> or both?
17:33 < jrayhawk_> I don't think IGF-1 digestion has been studied with an awareness of intestinal permeability or gut floral metabolism, so we may have some surprises.
17:34 < fenn> jrayhawk_: since deer are a different species it seems unlikely that their IGF-1 would have any effect on humans
17:34 < jrayhawk_> beats me
17:34 < Lemminkainen> both
17:35 < Lemminkainen> if you want more IGF-1, though, exercise strenuously and then eat a few croissants
17:35 < Lemminkainen> probably more effective than deer antlers
17:36 < jrayhawk_> croissants would just do insulin, not IGF-1. Large protein boluses are the way to go for IGF-1.
17:36 < fenn> does going to the grocery store count as "strenuous"
17:36 < jrayhawk_> crabwalking
17:36 < jrayhawk_> specifically BCAAs
17:39 < fenn> who names these things https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple_syrup_urine_disease
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17:44 < fenn> "in vitro data suggest that whey protein exerts its insulinogenic effect by preferential elevation of the plasma concentrations of certain amino acids, GIP and GLP-1."  i thought all this was discovered ages ago
17:45 < fenn> what are the magic keywords for insulinogenic amino acids vs ... ?
17:54 < fenn> i wish there were websites that just had lists of scientifically known facts
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18:46 < justanotheruser> http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html
18:46 < justanotheruser> rocket blew up
18:46 < justanotheruser> $1.9 billion lost, no lives lost
18:47 < justanotheruser> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RypXOIr5x3Q
18:48 < justanotheruser> but the FDA says a human life is around $10m
18:48 < justanotheruser> so like 200 lives were lost
18:49 < fenn> it was one of eight launches in a $1.9b contract, so more like $250 million
18:49 < justanotheruser> my mistake
18:49 < justanotheruser> 25 likes were lost then
18:50 < justanotheruser> *lives
18:50 < fenn> also lost was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_Resources#Arkyd_3_Flight_test_system private space telescope testbed
18:51 < fenn> they were planning on using laser communications; not sure if this testbed had that or not
18:51 < justanotheruser> RIP millions of human-hours
18:52 < fenn> don't worry too much about it
18:52 < fenn> most of the costs are engineering costs that get amortized over multiple builds
18:52 < fenn> like, guys clicking on a cad program
18:53 < nmz787> fenn: I've thought maple syrup urine disease sounded interested, at least it would smell nice.... but I wonder if you would lose taste for real maple
18:55 < fenn> why does lucas own the trademark on "arakyd" when it's clearly stolen from frank herbert's "arrakis"
18:57 < fenn> is this the same satellite project that was on kickstarter?
18:57 < fenn> com/projects/arkydforeveryone/arkyd-a-space-telescope-for-everyone-0
18:58 < fenn> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/arkydforeveryone/arkyd-a-space-telescope-for-everyone-0
19:00 < nmz787> also "photoresist gel" is a thing on google scholar
19:00 < nmz787> I imagine that your lower limit of resolution would increase though if you added gelling polymers
19:00 < fenn> why
19:01 < nmz787> there's photo-active PDMS, which has polymers
19:01 < nmz787> well because the polymers to gellify will be much longer than the photoresist -mers
19:01 < nmz787> so for a given volume that was activated, there will be lots of looping out of the activated area of the long polymers
19:02 < fenn> do you mean there will be better or worse resolution?
19:02 < nmz787> the effect may be negligible at macro scale
19:02 < nmz787> worse
19:02 < nmz787> minimum pixel size will increase
19:02 < nmz787> seems like you'd also have a lot more surface area
19:02 < nmz787> so you could get some metamaterial effects
19:03 < nmz787> like shit always wanting to stick to it or it always being moist or something
19:03 < fenn> how long are individual polymers
19:03 < nmz787> (that's off the top of my head so totally not researched well)
19:03 < nmz787> PEG for example comes in prob a few orders of magnitude length variants
19:03 < fenn> not longer than a micron though?
19:05 < fenn> i could see phonon conduction being a problem i guess, but an individual polymer chain won't normally be bonded to the resin around it
19:05 < fenn> it would just be floating around, and when you rinse the resin off there's nothing keeping it bound to your structure
19:06 < nmz787> idk the exact length
19:06 < nmz787> but you also have a spaghetti/ball-of-string effect
19:06 < fenn> a good gelling agent would disperse itself
19:07 < fenn> like starch is less viscous than methylcellulose because it's in a ball
19:07 < nmz787> but again, the effect may not be noticeable until you start looking at the nanoeffects
19:08 < nmz787> I think starch is miniscule compared to like PEG-8000
19:08 < fenn> what's the texture of that like?
19:08 < fenn> "carbowax"
19:10 < nmz787> umm, powder some/most times
19:10 < fenn> so is sodium chloride
19:10 < nmz787> they sell it at the drug store as laxative powder for example
19:10 < nmz787> powdery is a texture, no?
19:11 < fenn> yeah but it's not in solution
19:13 < nmz787> oh, umm, i don't generally think liquid has a texture, viscosity though
19:13 < fenn> liquid always has a viscosity
19:14 < fenn> unless you're talking about the luminiferous aether
19:15 < fenn> "Bath time recreational gel. (such as Gellibaff or Squishybaff)"
19:16 < fenn> you get more thickening power per unit mass from branched structures
19:16 < fenn> i'm not coming across a lot of quantitative data though; maybe they don't actually know the branch lengths
19:18 < fenn> "On average, the molecular weight of commercially produced chitosan is between 3800 and 20,000 Daltons."
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19:32 < fenn> .wik shrilk
19:32 < yoleaux> "Shrilk is a compostable material inspired by the insect cuticle and made from discarded shrimp shells and proteins derived from silk. Shrilk is thin, clear, flexible, and strong as aluminum at half the weight." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrilk
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19:48 < fenn> "PEG has been used as the gate insulator in an electric double-layer transistor to induce superconductivity in an insulator." http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008NatMa...7..855U
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19:51 < fenn> nothing to do with PEG of course
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20:46 < fenn> so many pixels you won't know what to do with them all http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/22/imac-with-retina-display-review/
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20:58 < kanzure> hello genehacker
20:58 < genehacker> hello
20:59 < kanzure> genehacker: tallakahath is a geometrically-confined non-thermal plasma metal-deposition person that you might want to meet sometime
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21:03 < genehacker> hmmm...
21:10 < nmz787> isn't most plasma non-thermal?
21:10 < nmz787> in that it's produced with electrics
21:10 < nmz787> or do some of the plasmas need to be kept hot/cold too?
21:16 < fenn> fractal nanotruss http://jrgreer.caltech.edu/home.php
21:16 < fenn> oh i have seen this page before
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21:17 < fenn> "Using a technique known as Two Photon Lithography (TPL) Direct Laser Writing (DLW), we create arbitrarily complex 3D structures with features on nanometer length scales in a process analogous to rapid prototyping... We use these structures as a scaffold to deposit materials onto using techniques like ALD, CVD, and sputtering deposition. The polymer can then be etched out, leaving behind a hollow
21:17 < fenn> nanoscale truss structure.
21:20 < fenn> the trusses are made of stuff like alumina, nickel, cubic zirconium
21:21 < fenn> or is that copper-zirconium
21:25 < fenn> now i understand what she meant by using "nanotubes" as crumple zones
21:39 < genehacker> it's basically 3d printing
22:06 < tallakahath> No, its that the electron temperature >> neutrals/ion temperature
22:07 < tallakahath> So you could run your finger through the stream and not get burnt
22:07 < tallakahath> Comprae and contrast with, say, the sun.
22:07 < tallakahath> Its been a few years since I've actively worked on that, tho.
22:31 < nmz787> you mean heat from joule heating?
22:36 < tallakahath> Oh, there's still joule heating in all of the solid bits. The capillary will get red hot.
22:36 < tallakahath> But the beam itself doesn't have time to thermally equilibrate
22:44 < justanotheruser> http://i.imgur.com/qHN5z5n.gif
22:45 < fenn> set your monitor's gamma to -1 for negative inverse kinematics
22:52 < nmz787> tallakahath: it can't equilibrate because it's in a vacuum chamber?
22:52 < nmz787> oh, i guess wiki says it is near 1 atm
22:53 < nmz787> so whatever gas is flooding in is a thermal insulator?
23:08 < tallakahath> The fraction of excited species is relatively small because the pressure is so much higher
23:08 < tallakahath> Compared to a parallel-plate plasma in a proper hard vacuum
23:10 < justanotheruser> Is there some chinese website that will mill stuff for me?
23:11 < fenn> emachineshop.com if new jersey is close enough to china
23:11 < fenn> you have to use their cad software tho
23:13 < justanotheruser> I'd rather upload something standard between software
23:13 < fenn> the great thing about standards is there are so many of them
23:14 < fenn> what are you making?
23:14 < justanotheruser> fenn: watch hopefully
23:14 < justanotheruser> using blender hopefully
23:14 < fenn> uh no
23:14 < justanotheruser> don't use blender+
23:14 < justanotheruser> ?
23:14 < fenn> if it has to have precise dimensions i don't recommend blender
23:15 < justanotheruser> is there some free software you do reccomend?
23:15 < fenn> if it's an art object go ahead
23:15 < nmz787> well wouldn't the blender model just have to be humongous?
23:15  * nmz787 is compiling freecad now
23:16 < justanotheruser> fenn: small gears aren't art
23:16 < fenn> hmm i should fill this out some time http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cadfaq/
23:16 < justanotheruser> nmz787: you like freecad?
23:16 < nmz787> i bet there's a clockmaker that you just made cry
23:17 < nmz787> justanotheruser: idk yet, kanzure said it's the best of the free, basically.
23:17 < nmz787> he actually said to use cadquery, which is based on freecad
23:17 < fenn> archivist is a clockmaker who hangs out on freenode, you might want to talk to him
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23:18 < fenn> watch gears are usually make with photochemical milling, not a milling machine
23:18 < fenn> this is more like chemical circuit board etching
23:18 < nmz787> the alternative in open-source/free seems to be based on CGAL rather than freecad's opencascade... which from what I can tell the main difference is that CGAL can use arbitrary precision but it's really slow... and that maybe opencascade has improved on their precision (but I didn't make sure of that)
23:19 < nmz787> fenn: you still need CAD for that
23:19 < fenn> sure but 2d cad
23:19 < nmz787> unless you wanted to do slicing
23:19 < justanotheruser> hmm
23:19 < nmz787> or modelling the gears mesh
23:19 < justanotheruser> yeah, it would be 2d
23:19 < nmz787> though that seems like a strech for freewate
23:19 < nmz787> freeware
23:19 < justanotheruser> I would design it 3d first though
23:20 < nmz787> i mean like that inventor program is supposed to do
23:20 < nmz787> with rendering moving parts and such
23:20 < fenn> gear math isnt that hard to get right
23:20 < fenn> its the tooth forms that's the problem
23:20 < justanotheruser> fenn: also, this guy used a milling machine it seems
23:20 < justanotheruser> http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53/dcorson/WN1/image014.jpg
23:20 < nmz787> in fact, there's an app for that
23:20 < justanotheruser> http://web.ticino.com/dcorson/watch/WatchNet-1_files/WN1.htm
23:23 < nmz787> justanotheruser: well that says he used existing gears, doesn't it?
23:23 < fenn> i wonder if those holes are supposed to be collinear
23:23 < nmz787> "This first project is to take the wheels from a standard calibre, an ETA2824-2, and make the rest of the watch myself"
23:24 < justanotheruser> nmz787: yeah, the modeling is based on the gears.
23:24 < justanotheruser> I guess I wasn't cclear
23:25 < justanotheruser> Also, I will probably have to design it independent of that design with my own gears I buy
23:27 < genehacker> freecad still uses opencascade and opencascade sucks
23:28 < genehacker> wait what
23:28 < genehacker> you want to model gears meshing?
23:28 < genehacker> why would you want to do that?
23:28 < nmz787> genehacker: tell that to kanzure
23:29 < nmz787> genehacker: but also, i did read something that was somewhat convincing... but I can't find the reference
23:29 < nmz787> it was some image showing lines that were supposed to meet, i think... and it was occ vs cgal
23:29 < nmz787> and the cgal version, to me, looked crappier
23:29 < genehacker> if it's a low power application the deformation of your gears will be practically nothing
23:29 < nmz787> but the caption seemed to say the opposite
23:30 < genehacker> some of my colleagues did the same comparison with occ and industrially available cad kernals
23:31 < genehacker> *kernel
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23:31 < nmz787> what sucked about it comparatively?
23:31 < genehacker> some of the more advanced operations
23:32 < fenn> it crashes constantly
23:32 < genehacker> like blending
23:32 < fenn> boolean intersections and sweeps often result in non manifold geometry
23:32 < nmz787> fenn: that's why I compiled, so maybe I can catch things and report them more easily (debugging symbols)
23:33 < nmz787> fenn: and does that not happen with openscad?
23:33 < fenn> no
23:33 < genehacker> openscad is only doing csg
23:33 < fenn> openscad doesn't seem to generate non-manifold, and i've never had it crash
23:33 < genehacker> csg is old school cad
23:33 < nmz787> (i mean non-manifold as a result)
23:34 < fenn> they're really completely different beasts
23:34 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.54.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:35 < genehacker> but if someone would just put a bunch of money into improving opencascade or buying out a major cad kernel to make it opensource the world would be a much better place
23:35 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:35 < fenn> the problem with OCC is it's layers and layers and layers of multiple generations of development teams adding onto stuff they didn't understand
23:35 < fenn> something like 30,000 classes
23:36 < genehacker> though if you want to play around with some of the big fun industrial cad kernels, often times  all you need  is a  dll file
23:36 < genehacker> and some documentation which is online for free
23:36 < genehacker> DLL file can be downloaded as part of demo for some cad softwares
23:36 < fenn> that doesn't make it open source
23:37 < fenn> it does provide a starting point for developing an API though
23:37 < nmz787> heh, I have a file that was in freecad src with 419613 lines in it
23:37 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.54.84] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:37 < genehacker> it's free as in beer and if you're clever you could write something as good as solidworks
23:39 < fenn> i'm pretty sure that would be against any EULA
23:39 < fenn> and it's easier to just download solidworks from a pirate
23:40 < fenn> not that solidworks is the end-all be-all of cad software...
23:40 < nmz787> is that your al capone impression of saying euler?
23:40 < nmz787> 'oila, see'
23:40 < genehacker> *this software requires a legally licensed copy of the parasolid cad kernl in order to work
23:41 < genehacker> *please download cadconverter4050 2.0 which comes with a legal copy of the parasolid cad kernel in order to use this software
23:42 < fenn> genehacker i'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this scheme
23:42 < fenn> you end up with something vaguely legal that nobody can improve upon
23:42 < genehacker> guess so, but it will work better than opencascade
23:43 < nmz787> "Most Parasolid files can communicate and migrate only 3D solids and/or surface data - Parasolid files currently cannot communicate and migrate 2D data such as lines and arcs."
23:43 < nmz787> "To use Parasolid effectively, users need to have fundamental knowledge of CAGD, computational geometry and topology."
23:43 < nmz787> 'ain\'t nobody got time for that'
23:43 < fenn> what's CAGD
23:44 < nmz787> it redirects to CAD on wiki
23:44 < genehacker> oh come on if you're familiar with opencascade it's not that hard
23:44 < nmz787> http://www.acronymfinder.com/CADG.html has nothing
23:44  * nmz787 is doing CAD at work now
23:44  * nmz787 'lectrical though
23:45 < genehacker> computer aided geometric design
23:45 < nmz787> 'Chat About Depression Glass (web forum)'
23:45 < genehacker> and I do MAD at work now
23:45 < nmz787> that must be CADG
23:45 < nmz787> Molecular Aided Drafting?
23:45 < genehacker> oops that doesn't really work out
23:45 < fenn> i guess this is talking about implicit geometry vs explicit nurbsy things
23:46 < genehacker> unless you consider caffeine a molecule
23:46 < nmz787> we should just keep layering sine waves to make these shapes
23:46 < nmz787> that would make things simple :P
23:46 < genehacker> why not voxels
23:47 < genehacker> everyone loves minecraft
23:47 < nmz787> yo dawg, I heard you like complex shit, so I put a sine wave on your sine wave so it can interfere while it constructifies
23:47 < nmz787> isn't blender essentially just that?
23:48 < genehacker> can you put in blocks like minecraft?
23:48 < nmz787> I might end up just setting a voxel to be half-an-angstrom and get a new USB3 HDD
23:48 < fenn> are you talking about catmull-rom surface refinement?
23:48 < nmz787> my cat sleeps outside
23:48 < fenn> derp, nevermind
23:49 < fenn> blender does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdivision_surface
23:50 < genehacker> you can also do this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additive_Manufacturing_File_Format#Optional_curved_triangles
23:50  * nmz787 is building a serial mouse
23:50 < fenn> curved triangles, that's new
23:52 < genehacker> not a space mouse?
23:52 < genehacker> unfortunately it's a couple years old
23:52 < genehacker> and no one seems to be using it
23:53 < nmz787> hmm, the huge mesh seems less prone to crashing or something
23:53 < nmz787> are they sparse at least?
23:54 < fenn> is what sparse?
23:54 < nmz787> 'my CAD model is for an object I'm fabricating in a vacuum chamber... no, really... there aren't actually atoms there, so I don't want to store the data'
23:55 < fenn> 'the original curved triangle is ultimately replaced by 1024 flat triangles. These 1024 triangles are generated "on the fly"'
23:56 < Lemminkainen> fenn are you a nurb?
23:56 < fenn> has everyone gone mad
23:57 < nmz787> wouldn't we be lots of NURBS
23:57 < nmz787> .ud nurb
23:58 < nmz787> 'Ganxsta: a person who talks shit about someone behind their back and sucks up to them to their face. Also spends all day inside on the computer or playing video games.'
23:58 < nmz787> I don't think that applies
23:58 < Lemminkainen> not quite, do you live in a jellyfish house?
23:58 < fenn> jellyfish have houses?
23:58 < nmz787> heh, 'NURBS. Non Useful Ridiculous Bull Shit'
23:59 < nmz787> I wonder if those pet jellyfish are for sale
23:59 < Lemminkainen> ah, nevermind fenn you haven't had the Big Aha yet
23:59 < fenn> i do admire hyperia galba
23:59 < nmz787> they are...
--- Log closed Wed Oct 29 00:00:03 2014