--- Log opened Fri Oct 31 00:00:36 2014
00:01 < justanotheruser> because sleep is wasted time
00:01 < justanotheruser> it is a trick by your body to get your brain to use its resources on it
00:01 < justanotheruser> but the brain is what is important
00:01 < justanotheruser> 5031286103ba6249e8113870f00beae87a5b625e
00:01 < fenn> even flies sleep
00:02 < justanotheruser> the brain is for thinking, the body is for fighting, we are no longer brutes
00:02 < fenn> are you dumber than a fly
00:02 < justanotheruser> fenn: are you dumber than a robot?
00:02 < fenn> yeah :\
00:02 < justanotheruser> will AIs that don't sleep be dumb?
00:03 < fenn> well, they probably won't have to since they don't have brains
00:03 < fenn> biological neurons
00:03 < justanotheruser> to answer your question, I doubt I'm dumber than a fly,
00:14 < fenn> "Nedergaard’s team has dubbed the new system “the glymphatic system,” since it acts much like the lymphatic system but is managed by brain cells known as glial cells."
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00:19 < fenn> genehacker, jackybgood, talk to each other
00:19 < genehacker> about?
00:19 < fenn> space replicators n stuff
00:21 < genehacker> ok
00:21 < jackybgood> messaged you
00:21 < genehacker> why not just talk here?
00:23 < jackybgood> I just figured I'd save everyone the headache of reading through the discussion. Anyway, I want to 3d print self replicating nanotechnology on asteroids and planets.
00:24 < genehacker> step 1: figure out how to 3d print nanotechnology
00:25 < jackybgood> Any idea on how to do that? I've skimmed over electrospinning nanomaterials
00:25 < jackybgood> The self-assembly is what I don't grasp yet
00:26 < genehacker> I think I got an idea, but it would be really, really, really, really slow
00:26 < fenn> did you read that paper about algorithmic dna tile assembly?
00:26 < genehacker> skimmed
00:26 < jackybgood> I may have? If you sent it
00:27 < fenn> by winfree, rothemund, and others
00:27 < fenn> it's probably the closest thing we currently have to self-assembling nanotechnology
00:27 < fenn> atomically precise construction
00:28 < genehacker> well if you're into the whole nanotechnology thing there's toth-fejel's self-replicating machine proposal
00:28 < genehacker> http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/final_report/883Toth-Fejel.pdf
00:29 < jackybgood> Then no, I don't recall reading it. fenn sent me a few articles yesterday, which outlined the early proposals of self-replicating lunar bases
00:30 < genehacker> where you use DNA origami type stuff to put together tiny electrical components
00:30 < fenn> heh "With exponential growth, a single self-replicating probe could be expected to convert the entire mass of the Galaxy into copies of itself within 2 million years. Any species intelligent enough to build such a probe, Sagan and Newman argued, would also be intelligent enough to realize the danger of it and so would not embark upon the project in the first place."
00:31 < jackybgood> dead before it starts
00:31 < jackybgood> Wouldn't they just follow an objective, and not worry about the outcome?
00:31 < genehacker> well guess I'm not an intelligent species
00:32 < jackybgood> Apparently. I'm trying to figure out a way to add value to colonizing other planets
00:33 < genehacker> well that is unfortunate then
00:33 < jackybgood> There's value on asteroids
00:33 < jackybgood> 'in'
00:33 < genehacker> one of the problems with self-replicating machines is they become exponentially less valuable
00:34 < jackybgood> Why?
00:34 < jackybgood> You'd never run out of things to build with something self-replicating. People would always find a use
00:35 < genehacker> your supply exponentially increases so your value approaches zero
00:35 < genehacker> and some weird traditional economics stuff
00:35 < jackybgood> But there would always also be a constant demand for more material
00:36 < fenn> An early fictional treatment was the short story "Autofac" by Philip K. Dick, published in 1955, which precedes von Neumann's original paper about self-reproducing machines (von Neumann, J., 1966, The Theory of Self-reproducing Automata
00:36 < fenn> autofac is one of my favorite stories
00:36 < jackybgood> I'll have to look for it
00:38 < jackybgood> In theory, designing a 3d printer to send up to a planet to start the process of building self-assembling space structures would have value to future colonists
00:39 < genehacker> or maybe not, I maybe am confusing the st. petersburg paradox
00:39 < jackybgood> Assuming there is a value to be had on the planet for a sustainable economy
00:39 < jackybgood> what's that
00:39 < genehacker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Petersburg_paradox
00:40 < genehacker> basically you end up with infinite returns, but the actual people involved find the value of participating to be low
00:41 < genehacker> now back to nanotechnology
00:42 < jackybgood> I'm not sure that makes sense. Why would infinite returns drop the value?
00:43 < genehacker> because it's not valuable to the people participating
00:43 < genehacker> but since the system here doesn't involve people it maybe doesn't apply
00:44 < jackybgood> Participating in the colonization? Or of the building of the structures? I would think of it as though there were platinum to be mined. There would be seemingly infinite value to the company who starts building structures and delves into the mining
00:44 < fenn> sorry for the bad format, search for "By PHILIP K. DICK" on https://archive.org/stream/galaxymagazine-1955-11/Galaxy_1955_11_djvu.txt
00:45 < genehacker> so part of the problem with big space projects is what value is brought to Earth?
00:46 < jackybgood> That's where companies like Planetary Resources come in, for transporting the materials back to the base
00:46 < jackybgood> The base then being on Earth or wherever they choose
00:47 < genehacker> however, it probably doesn't make economic sense to mine platinum and send it back to earth right now
00:47 < fenn> re: diminishing marginal utility, " gain of one thousand ducats is more significant to the pauper than to a rich man though both gain the same amount."
00:47 < fenn> (ducat = dollar)
00:48 < fenn> it doesn't make sense to send raw materials back to earth because "stuff" costs $10,000/kg in low earth orbit right now
00:48 < jackybgood> Why not? There's plenty of valuable minerals in the asteroids floating around. Jst one could contain more platinum than has been mined in history
00:48 < genehacker> of course right now we don't really understand the asteroidal environment
00:49 < fenn> anything is way more valuable in space than on earth, excluding nuclear isotopes and exotic technology
00:50 < fenn> this is why people started talking about replicators in space in the first place
00:50 < fenn> even though replicators are also quite useful on earth
00:51 < jackybgood> With space travel becoming much cheaper with SpaceX, there's now a reason to explore space
00:51 < fenn> eh, it's not that much cheaper
00:51 < genehacker> we don't know how asteroids behave when they are mined, we have only about 1000 or so grains of asteroidal regolith, we aren't sure what they look like on the inside
00:52 < fenn> genehacker: actually we have "ground" penetrating radar maps from hayabusa (i think)
00:52 < jackybgood> I thought we would have already developed mining technology to scan for certain buried elements, by now?
00:52 < genehacker> second even though asteroids have lots of platinum, the concentration is still pretty low
00:53 < genehacker> well not quite
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00:55 < jackybgood> This is still a few years out, which is why I'm trying to work on it now
00:55 < genehacker> the big thing we don't understand right now is granular mechanics
00:55 < jackybgood> People are working on how to get to asteroids and land on Mars. I'm working on what to do next
00:55 < jackybgood> googling....
00:55 < genehacker> that is we don't understand how dirt behaves
00:56 < jackybgood> How's that?
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00:57 < genehacker> as in we don't know why some things happen in granular mechanics
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00:58 < genehacker> part of the problem is that granular materials have no scaling laws like you have with fluids
00:59 < jackybgood> We're stumped by dirt
00:59 < genehacker> you can't build a scaled down model of a concrete plant and then scale up
00:59 < genehacker> you have to build at full scale to test things out
01:00 < jackybgood> Isn't that like running before you can walk? You have to start somewhere in the building process
01:00 < genehacker> basically, but that's the only way to do it
01:01 < jackybgood> Is to start with a strcuture of nanoparticles and run tests?
01:01 < genehacker> and even then concrete plants aren't that reliable and compensate with continuous maintenance
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01:02 < jackybgood> I figured we'd program them like nanobots to complete an objective and then stop growing
01:02 < genehacker> here's more on the subject http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20050198938.pdf
01:02 < genehacker> well first you have to figure out how to program them like nanobots
01:03 < jackybgood> As the uninformed, you mean we can't do that yet?
01:04 < fenn> well here is a thing http://www.asteroidmines.net/documents/MiningRig/RigForMining.html
01:04 < jackybgood> I suppose there really isn't a nanoparticle library that you can incorporate variables from, yet
01:04 < genehacker> well maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by program
01:05 < genehacker> but the main thing is granular materials don't have scaling laws
01:05 < fenn> if you want to "program" something you need a computer; we don't have nano-sized computers (yet)
01:06 < jackybgood> But we can design nanomaterials already. That doesn't use programming?
01:06 < fenn> alternatively you can "encode" shapes and motifs into self-assembling pieces
01:06 < fenn> words are inherently ambiguous and imprecise
01:07 < genehacker> and the only way to get the required properties of the dirt for these nanobots is to actually obtain the dirt
01:07 < fenn> but it's sloppy thinking to just say "oh, we'll get some nanobots to do it"
01:07 < genehacker> in real life we'd just use a simulation and not nanobots, but our simulations aren't that great
01:08 < jackybgood> We've created synthetic dirts, but I suppose that's not precise enough.
01:09 < jackybgood> I've only been learning about the technicalities of nanotechnology for the past month or so
01:10 < genehacker> in order to mine asteroids we really need to study them more
01:11 < jackybgood> So we obtain dirt, study and break it down, then try to copy the structure?
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01:11 < fenn> did nasa continue with the plan to tow a small asteroid back to earth orbit?
01:12 < fenn> er, to the moon
01:13 < genehacker> yup, and we did that moon dust already
01:13 < jackybgood> I'm not too worried about NASA's progress as much as privatized companies, who aren't held back by regulation nearly as much
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01:13 < jackybgood> We did the structure thing with lunar dust?
01:14 < genehacker> yeah, there's this stuff called jsc-1 which we think is pretty close to moon dust
01:15 < jackybgood> I think I saw that being sold somewhere, synthetically for research
01:15 < genehacker> of course with asteroids there might be some weird microgravity effects:https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/brazil-nut-effect-explains-mystery-of-the-boulder-strewn-surface-of-asteroids-e5fae1b6c242
01:16 < genehacker> yeah, by the pound:
01:16 < genehacker> http://www.orbitec.com/store/simulant.html
01:16 < jackybgood> So don't we get about how it can bind
01:17 < jackybgood> There's no chemical reaction we can cause to make it bond to itself, into a solid mass?
01:18 < genehacker> well that's where things can start to get really weird
01:18 < jackybgood> Fun
01:19 < genehacker> turns out rubbing grains together can cause electrostatic forces to come into play
01:19 < jackybgood> In the field of granular mechanics, weird?
01:19 < jackybgood> The Martian soil can cause electrostatic discharge?
01:19 < genehacker> probably
01:20 < genehacker> oh and van der waals forces if we're in space
01:20 < genehacker> oh and friction coefficient is not something you can calculate
01:20 < jackybgood> Interesting! I must read into this special dirt
01:20 < genehacker> which is one of the really shitty things about the real world
01:21 < fenn> the mars rovers periodically have the dust blown off of their solar panels by electrostatic storms
01:21 < genehacker> http://nile.physics.ncsu.edu/pub/Publications/papers/Daniels-2013-AsteroidsChapter.pdf
01:21 < jackybgood> You can't calculate a friction coefficient?
01:21 < genehacker> which are probably dust devils, which we know pick up an electric charge
01:21 < fenn> also dust jumps up and down at the terminator line on the moon, making for a "sunset" effect
01:21 < fenn> due to the photoelectric effect
01:22 < fenn> it goes several hundred feet up
01:22 < jackybgood> That's bizarre
01:22 < genehacker> with sufficient computing  power anything is possible, just not practical
01:22 < fenn> friction coefficients are hard enough already
01:23 < genehacker> now the publication above shows one of the problems with asteroid mining
01:24 < jackybgood> In that we can't yet figure out if there's a static shock we have to worry about when we take samples and manipulate the soil
01:25 < fenn> i liked the idea of just putting a bag around the whole thing
01:25 < genehacker> by removing material from an asteroid, which could be a collection of boulders that is held together, if you remove the wrong bit of material you can cause an avalanche
01:25 < genehacker> http://www.astrobio.net/topic/solar-system/meteoritescomets-and-asteroids/landing-on-an-asteroid-may-cause-avalanches/
01:26 < genehacker> well we already have samples of asteroid, just not much of them, the only probe to ever take samples back from an asteroid malfunctioned when it took the samples
01:26 < fenn> it did? how?
01:26 < jackybgood> Which one?
01:27 < jackybgood> How much static are we really worried about?
01:27 < fenn> i thought hayabusa just jabbed a tube into the surface
01:27 < genehacker>  "the sampling sequence was not triggered since a sensor detected an obstacle during descent"
01:28 < genehacker> his mode did not permit a sample to be taken, but there is a high probability that some dust may have whirled up into the sampling horn when it touched the asteroid, so the sample canister currently attached to the sampling horn was sealed. On November 25, a second touchdown attempt was performed. It was initially thought that this time, the sampling device was activated;[40] however, later...
01:28 < genehacker> ...analysis decided that this was probably another failure and that no pellets were fired.
01:29 < genehacker> but they did find some microscopic grains in it
01:29 < genehacker> which are a start
01:29 < jackybgood> They made a sampling tube that couldn't be opened again?
01:30 < genehacker> and of course we know approximately what asteroids are made of so at least the chemical processing can be worked out
01:31 < jackybgood> That sounds like a good thing. If we know what is under the surface of an asteroid, we can decide its value
01:31 < genehacker> they made a gun to shoot an asteroid and collect anything that got ejected from the surface
01:31 < jackybgood> and then mine it
01:31 < genehacker> but the gun didn't fire
01:32 < jackybgood> When was that
01:33 < genehacker> well we know that asteroids are probably going to be pretty homogenous from what we know of planet formation and we know that they have similar spectra to meteorites we have on earth
01:33 < genehacker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayabusa
01:36 < jackybgood> It will take too long to slow down an asteroid enough, which is why there has to be mining done while it is travelin
01:37 < genehacker> well in general it's probably going to be more difficult to move an asteroid than it is to move platinum acquired from said asteroid
01:39 < jackybgood> The farther away it is, the easier it is to transport
01:39 < fenn> bah. the oxygen is worth just as much as the platinum is, in orbit
01:40 < genehacker> but if you can figure out how to get the dirt and build stuff on an asteroid, then you're done with most of the speculative stuff
01:40 < jackybgood> But it's much more dangerous to slow down a speeding asteroid at 20k mph, than to manipulate it in orbit
01:41 < genehacker> yes
01:41 < fenn> that's why you put it in a bag, to keep the broken pieces from flying off
01:41 < jackybgood> Right, so I have to come up with a way to get the dirt and then manipulate it, clone it into nanotech that can then self-assemble?
01:42 < jackybgood> You can't put something the size of Texas in a bag
01:42 < fenn> why does it have to be the size of texas?
01:43 < jackybgood> Because...we only want to mine the big beefy ones that are full of minerals?
01:43 < fenn> why not just mine earth then
01:44 < jackybgood> We've destroyed it enough already
01:44 < fenn> oh come on
01:44 < genehacker> well if it's nickel iron, you can use mond process to seperate out platinum
01:44 < jackybgood> If anything, my Earth mission is to design plant nanobionics to absorb pollution
01:45 < genehacker> http://www.angelfire.com/co/rwrwrw/carbonyl.htm
01:46 < genehacker> the interesting thing about this process is that you get out some nice gaseous nickel carbonyl
01:47 < fenn> looks like you get nickel spheres
01:47 < fenn> the carbonyl is just a catalyst
01:48 < jackybgood> We'd only get nickel out of the platinum?
01:48 < genehacker> and if you have a high power laser or focused sunlight you decompose the nickel carbonyl into nickel
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01:49 < fenn> uh.. well presumably you could do some kind of mass/charge ratio separation on the gas phase to separate out different elements
01:49 < fenn> like a big mass spectrometer
01:49 < genehacker> and if you control where the laser or focused sunlight goes, you can essentially do 3d printing
01:50 < genehacker> boiling point seperation fenn
01:50 < fenn> how about making thin films for mirrors instead
01:50 < genehacker> yup that works too
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01:51 < genehacker> and then you can use those mirror to make more mirrors
01:53 < fenn> it seems like oxygen would quickly poison the carbon monoxide
01:53 < fenn> then it would just be CO2 and not a catalyst
01:53 < genehacker> yeah
01:54 < fenn> you need some way to reduce the CO2
01:54 < genehacker> you know I never really have considered this whole asteroid mining thing much
01:55 < genehacker> but the carbon and hydrogen content is nice
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01:56 < jackybgood> There's lots of opportunity
01:57 < genehacker> but as like all big space projects, it involves huge investments
01:57 < genehacker> dang, I need to get back to writing my paper about all this
01:57 < jackybgood> Or a large group
01:58 < jackybgood> Writing about asteroid mining?
01:58 < genehacker> L5 wasn't that successful
01:58 < genehacker> self-replicating machine
01:58 < genehacker> *s
01:58 < genehacker> I want to find a controller for a simple one
01:59 < genehacker> doing all work in simulation
01:59 < jackybgood> All theory and no practical application until the theory is proven?
01:59 < fenn> jeez.. hayabusa 2 is going to use a shape charge plastic explosive to blow up a crater
01:59 < genehacker> that's fucking awesome
01:59 < fenn> way to contaminate the sample guys
02:00 < jackybgood> mini boom
02:00 < genehacker> it's a class project, so I can't really expect much
02:00 < jackybgood> What major?
02:01 < genehacker> at this point I'm not even sure
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02:02 < jackybgood> Lol I feel the same way. My ideas are big, but it's very hard to condense them into a specific field
02:03 < genehacker> I'm supposed to be a mechanical engineer, but my job's to design an AI to design molecules that are machines
02:04 < jackybgood> Self-replicating machines?
02:05 < jackybgood> That would be the cherry on top
02:05 < genehacker> hopefully, eventually
02:05 < genehacker> just simple machines for now
02:06 < fenn> genehacker: just solve the protein folding problem and you're good to go
02:07 < jackybgood> and figure out how to program nanoparticles, while you're at it. That's one of the problems I'm supposed to be working on now
02:08 < genehacker> fenn: for what we're doing we don't need to solve the protein folding problem
02:08 < jackybgood> Have no idea where to start programming baye's theorem, because I have no experience at all in programming
02:08 < fenn> jackybgood: the magic keywords you're looking for is "amorphous computing"
02:08 < fenn> but yeah, starting with regular computing first is a good idea
02:09 < jackybgood> I'm a month into learning Python, cross-platform from C++
02:10 < fenn> good place to start
02:12 < jackybgood> Not at all, when on a deadline
02:14 < genehacker> and I need to remember how to program in C++
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02:15 < jackybgood> I like it because of the syntax and braces; it
02:15 < jackybgood> it's nice and neat
02:17 < genehacker> when one has a deadline, one should abandon all notions of neatness
02:18 < jackybgood> Good point. But this is the infrastructure of a large database
02:18 < jackybgood> So neatness is necessity
02:18 < fenn> just use version control and consistent formatting and document your work and i won't care what language you use
02:18 < genehacker> also not used to the whole pointers and header files thing because of too much C#
02:19 < genehacker> what about brainf?
02:19 < fenn> (actually i am a python zealot, just attempting to avert a programming language holy war)
02:20 < jackybgood> I figure python would work well for Bayes' Theorem
02:20 < genehacker> you know the toth-fejel paper originally considered using a computer architecture that implemented brainF in hardware?
02:20 < jackybgood> Rather then using C++ and breaking it down into comparing pointers or array sets
02:21 < genehacker> this way you have the absolute minimum gate count necessary to make something that's turing complete
02:21 < fenn> genehacker: well they are both geometric and orthogonal
02:21 < fenn> i doubt it's "the absolute minimum"
02:22 < fenn> i think the minimum is like 2 gates
02:22 < genehacker> for a cellular automata thing?
02:22 < fenn> obviously there are tradeoffs
02:22 < fenn> yeah, turing complete cellular automata
02:24 < jackybgood> Heard of using Verilog in Python for simulating?
02:24 < jackybgood> not python
02:25 < jackybgood> It's its own language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verilog
02:25 < genehacker> yeah and they said this too, why use a brainF architecture that's impossible to program when you can use a picoblaze architecture you can actually compile to with something C like
02:25 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfram%27s_2-state_3-symbol_Turing_machine
02:29 < fenn> night
02:30 < jackybgood> Night thanks for the chat
02:30 < jackybgood> Happy Halloween
02:30 < genehacker> night
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04:09 < jrayhawk_> kanzure: a botnet was going nuts on the newuser CGI; I've disabled it for now.
04:14 < jrayhawk_> If you know of a dirt simple way to do a captcha, let me know.
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06:01 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archival_Disc
06:13 < chris_99> have you seen this one http://www.mdisc.com/what-is-mdisc/
06:13 < chris_99> 1000 years storage allegedly
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10:18 < heath> i had the dji phantom aerial linked earlier
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10:19 < heath> i still have the propeller guards if anyone wants them
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10:49 < delinquentme> BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAh
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10:51 < justanotheruser> sheep
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11:22 < nmz787_i1> delinquentme: why you no reply me on facebook re: soylent taste?
11:34 < kanzure> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/932664050/opentrons-open-source-rapid-prototyping-for-biolog
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11:42 < kanzure> " http://mix.bio/ is the first ever community for the peer-to-peer development of open-source automated biology protocols. "
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11:59 < nmz787_i1> seems alright
12:00 < nmz787_i1> kind of funny how the woman in the video says she works at 'the' top cancer research place
12:00 < nmz787_i1> or something that sounded like that
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12:11 < kanzure> the most tippy top
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12:26 < fenn> not a good week for spaceflight
12:29 < nmz787_i1> this sounds like the tagline to the next winter holiday movie blockbuster "If I just had one wish for Christmas it would be some bio education and open-mindedness to the ETC and green/greenpeace people. "
12:29 < nmz787_i1> fade from black to a boy with a tear rolling down his eye
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12:35 < fenn> spaceship two blew up while testing a new plastic-based rocket motor
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13:49 < nmz787_i1> paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/ipdf/10.1021/bm5004948
13:53 < nmz787_i1> kanzure: is it too dangerous to add a command like paperbot restart or something?
13:53 < archels> https://gist.github.com/turingbirds/3cb9e64df0c09f5ffda6
13:53 < archels> .title
13:53 < yoleaux> usbreset.c
13:53 < kanzure> yes that is a little dangerous/annoying
13:53 < kanzure> gnusha reboots paperbot whenever i push new commits
13:54 < kanzure> s/reboots/reloads its python modules
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14:22 < fenn> .title http://www.sciencemag.org/content/346/6208/481.abstract  <- genehacker
14:22 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed.
14:22 < fenn> .title http://www.sciencemag.org/content/346/6208/481.abstract
14:22 < yoleaux> High thermodynamic stability of parametrically designed helical bundles
14:24 < fenn> "The approach enables the custom design of hyperstable proteins with fine-tuned geometries for a wide range of applications."
14:26 < kanzure> hmm.
14:30 < heath> .bio is a tld, neat
14:30  * heath hopes opentrons is founded
14:30 < heath> s/founded/funded
14:32 < heath> fenn, where'd you hear about that paper?
14:37 < kanzure> from the aether
14:37 < kanzure> there's a pdf aether
14:37 < kanzure> like a fine, disgusting mist
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15:29 < nmz787_i1> .title http://www.aib-seeds.com/en/report-piracy/4.aib
15:29 < yoleaux> Report Piracy
15:29 < nmz787_i1> 'Report piracy by clicking on the red button'
15:29 < fenn> i was reading science magazine while eating breakfast. i've been teasing genehacker about how solving the protein folding problem would put him out of a job
15:30 < nmz787_i1> fenn: or put him in a position to formulate alternative folding polymers
15:30 < nmz787_i1> alternative-chemistry
15:31 < nmz787_i1> 'Plant breeding is a highly sophisticated and cost-intensive business. Depending on the crop, the R&D process takes on average 5 to 15 years. '
15:31 < nmz787_i1> seems about right from what I've seen since entering the field
15:32 < fenn> why dont we see more genetically engineered mosses
15:32 < fenn> you can put em in a blender and they still survive just fine
15:32 < fenn> much shorter breeding cycle too
15:34 < fenn> "did you mean transgenic mouse?"
15:34 < fenn> well this is a weird redirect
15:34 < fenn> .title https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossclone
15:35 < yoleaux> Framework Programmes for Research and Technological Development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
15:36 < jackybgood> paperbot http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nn502926x
15:36 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1021%2Fnn502926x
15:42 < fenn> i want one http://www.mossclone.eu/images/news/Sphagnum_palustre_in_Bioreactor.jpg
15:42 < fenn> The moss plants swimming in this bioreactor all derive from the spores of a single sporangium capsule of a single Spagnum palustre plant from northern Germany. The cultivation of single clones makes it needless to harvest specimens from the wild. Plants raised under this controlled laboratory conditions will provide the standardized raw material which is needed to detect pollutants in picogram
15:42 < fenn> quantities.
15:43 < kanzure> fenn, what are all the different things on the top of that cylinder's top surface in the image
15:44 < kanzure> two of them seem to be holes, some seem to be related to some structural support maybe..
15:44 < kanzure> i count at last 14 different random things there....
15:46 < fenn> tubing connectors for aeration, screws to hold the lid on, and i dont know what the nuts with washers are for, perhaps to mount mixing paddles that arent used in this reactor
15:46 < nmz787_i1> paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/ipdf/10.1021/bm5004948
15:47 < fenn> if you imagine the central tube is used to rotate the whole reactor back and forth, and there are paddles to break up the rotational flow of culture media
15:47 < kanzure> that's an interesting idea, rotating the whole setup
15:48 < kanzure> i always thought just of fans and blending inside most reactors
15:49 < nmz787_i1> ugh, paperbot makes me sad recently
15:49 < nmz787_i1> .title http://pubs.acs.org/doi/ipdf/10.1021/bm5004948
15:49 < yoleaux> An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
15:49 < nmz787_i1> hah
15:49 < nmz787_i1> 'Engineered Coiled-Coil Protein Microfibers'
15:51 < kanzure> well then let's fix paperbot
15:51 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot
15:52 < nmz787_i1> .wik cytochalasin b
15:52 < yoleaux> "Cytochalasin B, the name of which comes from the Greek cytos (cell) and chalasis (relaxation), is a cell-permeable mycotoxin. It was found that substoichimetric concentrations of cytochalasin B (CB) strongly inhibit network formation by actin filaments. Due to this, it is often used in cytological research." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytochalasin_b
15:53 < nmz787_i1> kanzure: my main problem with development was that I couldnt test code without committing it, and that made the development cycle long and annoying
15:53 < fenn> if you have a stirring paddle in the center you still need stator blades or the liquid will just rotate around uselessly instead of blending
15:53 < kanzure> paperbot v2 can be tested without committing
15:54 < kanzure> since it does not have the irc integration
15:54 < kanzure> or other terrible idas
15:54 < kanzure> ideas
15:54 < kanzure> it's pure-python
15:54 < kanzure> pure pureness
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16:00 < fenn> .title http://www.greenovation.com/scalability.html
16:00 < yoleaux> Scalability | GREENOVATION - Pharmaceutical Protein Production in Moss
16:00 < fenn> neat stuff. no worries about LPS contamination
16:01 < kanzure> hmm is moss really better?
16:01 < kanzure> or more scalable
16:01 < kanzure> vegf production, sounds great, sign me up
16:01 < fenn> well it certainly has a shorter lifecycle than, say, tobacco
16:01 < kanzure> actually i mean more like form factor and production volume or something
16:01 < fenn> i dunno, all that stuff is super top secret anyway
16:02 < kanzure> bioreactors do seem rather underappreciated in general
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16:03 < fenn> the diagram shows a blender paddle/blade thingy in the central metallic cylinder on the lid of the bioreactor
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16:04 < fenn> "In contrast to heterotrophic systems like microbial or mammalian cell cultures, requiring much more complex media, this photoautotrophic process is based on rather simple, purely mineral media. The obvious economic benefit is not only due to media cost itself, but is also reflected downstream in high initial purity and generic purification paths."
16:04 < nmz787_i1> heh, 'top-secret moss'
16:05 < fenn> i just mean the nitty gritty details of pharmaceutical production
16:05 < kanzure> i'm more familiar with schemes like hairy root and algae bioreactors
16:05 < nmz787_i1> oh, well I think yashgaroth would be able to handle those questions
16:05 < nmz787_i1> is that the model moss that diybio has had discussions on?
16:06 < fenn> Physcomitrella patens?
16:08 < nmz787_i1> if that's what the archives say
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16:08 < fenn> it's been used as a model organism because it has good homologous recombination
16:10 < fenn> i just think this is hilarious https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Physcomitrella_growing_on_agar_plates.jpg
16:10 < nmz787_i1> apparently french cats hoard papers now http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=6570311
16:10 < nmz787_i1> paperbot: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=6570311
16:10 < nmz787_i1> 'cat' institute, eh
16:10 < nmz787_i1> meow
16:11 < nmz787_i1> fenn: you should see the one of a mushroom growing from a book
16:11 < fenn> i think 'cat' is just short for 'catalog'
16:11 < nmz787_i1> meow
16:12 < fenn> did someone slip LSD into your candy
16:12 < nmz787_i1> not today
16:12 < nmz787_i1> I am however bored and ready to leave work
16:13 < nmz787_i1> but I ride-share and have to wait to leave
16:13 < kanzure> papers.py is a mess
16:13 < kanzure> this is ridiculous
16:13 < nmz787_i1> and soundclound is disgusting me... it is freezing every 30 seconds or so
16:13 < nmz787_i1> kanzure: i can honestly say I wasn't sure what it was doing when I tried shoe-horning the proxy stuff in there
16:14 < nmz787_i1> wasn't sure as far as what the code was already doing
16:14 < chris_99> did you guys see this http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/11/101/20140873.full.pdf+html
16:15 < fenn> .title
16:15 < yoleaux> Homological scaffolds of brain functional networks
16:15 < fenn> sounds pretty gay
16:16 < chris_99> its on how Psilocybin effects the brain
16:16 < fenn> page 1 is missing?
16:16 < nmz787_i1> not for me
16:16 < chris_99> got it 'ere
16:17 < fenn> better version http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/11/101/20140873.full.html
16:17 < nmz787_i1> or http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/11/101/20140873.full.pdf
16:20 < nmz787_i1> 'In other words these functional connections support cycles that are especially stable and are only present in the psychedelic state. This further implies that the brain does not simply become a random system after psilocybin injects, but instead retains some organizationa features, albeit differetn from the normal state'
16:20 < nmz787_i1> who the hell really thinks '\shit just goes random'
16:20 < kanzure> er, did anyone really think the brain became totally random?
16:20 < chris_99> heh
16:20 < nmz787_i1> ding ding ding
16:21 < kanzure> man that's a low bar for publishing
16:21 < chris_99> i like the pretty graphs on p8
16:22 < nmz787_i1> top of pg8 seems congruent with prior art and common descriptions
16:22 < nmz787_i1> 'lots more cross-wiring'
16:24 < fenn> finally scientific proof that conference organizers are on drugs: http://www.openbeacon.org/Media:BruCON2011-OpenBeacon-RFID.png
16:25 < chris_99> haha
16:25 < fenn> if the "hacking for beer" tagline wasnt enough
16:27 < fenn> apparently this is called a "chord diagram" http://bl.ocks.org/mbostock/4062006
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16:27 < kanzure> so what would an actual chord diagram have to be called
16:27 < kanzure> (for showing chords on a keyboard interface thing)
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16:38 < fenn> circos.ca is such an overdone website i thought for sure it was commercial software
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16:40 < fenn> um, "alphabet chart" apparently http://stenoknight.com/plover/steno-alphabet-for-web-full-size.jpg (for chords that produce the alphabet at least)
16:41 < fenn> what happens if you just press one key, like "z"
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17:24 < fenn> not a single trick-or-treater. more for me i guess
17:25 < streety> plenty in the neighborhood here but no visit, probably a good thing. The best I could offer was nuts, seeds and carrots
17:25 < fenn> hey kid, here's a can of sardines
17:26 < fenn> you want some babyfood? stop crying
17:28 < nmz787> raining like crazy here
17:28 < streety> sardines, I hadn't considered those. Also a few tins of tuna
17:31 < fenn> if i actually had OCD that yellow one wouldn't be there: http://fennetic.net/irc/IMG_8824.JPG
17:35 < streety> don't eat it all at once fenn
17:40 < streety> actually, on a related topic, is caloric restriction still the only viable option for slowing aging? For enhancing aging high fat / high sugar diet the most detrimental?
17:41 < fenn> intermittent fasting has been shown to have the same effects as calorie restriction
17:41 < fenn> high sugar is bad, high fat depends on the fat, but not as bad as sugar
17:41 < fenn> i think the bad reputation of saturated fat is due to chelating magnesium and contributing to magnesium deficiency
17:44 < fenn> i've been reading about mitochondrial antioxidants such as ss-31 and pqq, which seem to block the effects of metabolic syndrome
17:45 < fenn> i'm not talking about the oxidative theory of aging
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17:47 < fenn> alagebrium looked promising; it was in phase II clinical trials for heart disease before the company developing it (alteon) ran out of cash and was put on the chopping block
17:47 < streety> I remember reading something about the typical high fat diets used in research using linoleic acid (?) which is supposedly particularly bad
17:47 < fenn> most dietary research is on mice, which, being rodents, can tolerate different fatty acids than humans
17:48 < fenn> you'd think this would be obviously a stupid thing to do, but there it is
17:48 < nmz787> i drink lots of half n half
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17:49 < fenn> "It is abundant in many vegetable oils, comprising over half (by weight) of poppy seed, safflower, sunflower, and corn oils." in other words, they use it because it's cheap
17:50 < fenn> surprised they didnt say soybean. i'm gonna fix that right now
17:52 < streety> have to watch the costs of the feed, it's not like it costs much for housing, ELISA kits, PCR reagents etc
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17:54 < nmz787> this might interest some folks https://www.icracked.com/apply
17:55 < nmz787> supposedly the guesstimate margin for them is $52
17:55 < nmz787> per job, which likely takes 13-60 mins
18:05 < fenn> streety: supposedly human growth hormone will reverse aging, but nobody is researching this and it's illegal and persecuted in the same way anabolic steroids are
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18:11 < streety> is anyone biobanking blood and tissue samples when relatively young to assess longevity treatments at a more advanced age?
18:12 < fenn> what would be the purpose of that?
18:12 < fenn> just in case it becomes useful?
18:15 < streety> essentially
18:16 < fenn> i heard google and facebook offer free egg banking for their employees, presumably so they dont have to take maternity leave on the company's dime
18:16 < streety> as we learn more about what is important we have the option of getting baselines from a more youthful time
18:16 < streety> I've heard the same, seems kind of messed up
18:17 < fenn> well i dont have any better ideas
18:17 < fenn> the alternative is women get to decide between their career and a family
18:22 < streety> I would hope some sort of workable compromise could be found
18:24 < streety> also, it seems somewhat gimmicky . . . as far as I know google and facebook aren't known for their low salaries. Could the employees not afford it without support?
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18:26 < fenn> they can also afford to buy lunch, but that's not the point
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18:29 < streety> fair point
18:34 < jackybgood> paperbot http://thorax.bmj.com/content/early/2013/02/05/thoraxjnl-2013-203224.extract
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18:41 < jackybgood> paperbot http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23390140
18:41 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1136%2Fthoraxjnl-2013-203224
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18:48 < fenn> streety i thought this was interesting, especially with all the other beneficial things ss-31 does: https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2013/05/mitochondrially-targeted-antioxidant-ss-31-reverses-some-measures-of-aging-in-muscle.php
18:48 < fenn> still learning about it
18:50 < fenn> .title http://vimeo.com/52645372
18:50 < yoleaux> Chris Masterjohn — Oxidative Stress & Carbohydrate Intolerance: An Ancestral Perspective on Vimeo
18:51 < fenn> i learned about it from this video
18:53 < streety> looks like they only looked one hour after the treatment
18:53 < streety> would be interesting to see if it persists
18:55 < streety> forget that, I missed the bit about 8 day treatment
18:56 < fenn> it's still a good point, whether it is simply a pharmacological dose dependent effect, or a permanent reversal of some damage
18:59 < streety> yeah, with it requiring injection it would be nice if you didn't need to dose with it for long
19:05 < fenn> it may be possible to take orally because it's such a short peptide
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19:11 < streety> paperbot http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/ars.2007.1892
19:12 < fenn> fuck everywhere requires cookies for no reason now
19:14 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/Mitochondria_Targeted_Cytoprotective_Peptides.pdf
19:16 < streety> thanks, I do have access but paperbot is a whole lot faster than logging in to the proxy, navigating to the journal, finding the paper, downloading . . .
19:18 < fenn> mostly i was annoyed because instead of showing the abstract or whatever it just blocked me with a 'nanananabooboo no cookies for you-oo'
19:18 < streety> "we may anticipate reasonably good oral absorption for these peptides. Furthermore, oral administration of SS-02 produced dose-dependent analgesia in mice (Szeto, unpublished results), demonstrating that these SS peptides are orally active."
19:18 < streety> sounds promising
19:21 < fenn> i wonder if mitochondrial oxidative damage is why everything dies after being unfrozen
19:21 < fenn> like it will look around, act normal, then keel over
19:28 < jrayhawk_> apoptosis is the problem, there, and mitochondria are a big part of apoptotic signalling, but i am curious as to what you're proposing, mechanistically
19:32 < fenn> i remember reading about how after people drowned in cold water they would try to revive them, and they'd die after being awake for a minute. then they started slowly reviving them by gradually increasing the blood oxygen content and they survived. this makes me think that the oxygen radical generating part of the metabolism starts up before the antioxidant-generating metabolism
19:33 < fenn> so the mitochondria is spewing out radicals for one minute and can't catch up to itself
19:37 < streety> that more ischemia reperfusion than freezing
19:39 < fenn> "Oxidative stress also plays a role in the ischemic cascade due to oxygen reperfusion injury following hypoxia."
19:40 < fenn> right but you can't be frozen and also have blood bringing oxygen to the cells
19:43 < streety> people don't freeze in cold water though
19:43 < streety> their body temperature drops but not so far they actually freeze
19:44 < fenn> "The actual cause of death in cold water is usually the bodily reactions to heat loss and to freezing water, rather than hypothermia (loss of core temperature) itself. ... massive increase in blood pressure and cardiac strain leading to cardiac arrest, and panic) ... and exhaustion and unconsciousness cause drowning"
19:45 < fenn> so drowning and extreme hypothermia are often coincident
19:46 < fenn> ok my brain is not working, bbl
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20:11 < kanzure> 20:09 <@gmaxwell> take the boolean circuit for it, and lay it out with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toffoli_gate  then make a mirror of the curcuit which 'uncomputes' the function, gobbling up all the garbage produced by the forward direction and giving you your input back.
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20:39 < nmz787> maybe i'll be an internet pop-up ad for halloween
20:47 < nmz787> 'Nanostructures of virtually any 3-dimensional shape can be deposited using computer-controlled scanning of electron beam.'
20:47 < nmz787> "Only the starting point has to be attached to the substrate, the rest of the structure can be free standing."
20:48 < nmz787> seems to me that electron beams and optics is achievable for lower cost than it is now... I think the main limitation is vacuum
20:48 < nmz787> and maybe also the HV electronics
20:53 < nmz787> or maybe neutral gas optics
20:55 < nmz787> 'By using a STEM and a high-angle detector, it is possible to form atomic resolution images where the contrast is directly related to the atomic number (z-contrast image). '
20:55 < nmz787> .wik Scanning transmission electron microscopy
20:55 < yoleaux> "A scanning transmission electron microscope (STEM) is a type of transmission electron microscope (TEM). Pronunciation is [stem] or [esti:i:em]. As with any transmission illumination scheme, the electrons pass through a sufficiently thin specimen." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanning_transmission_electron_microscopy
20:56 < nmz787> but you can get similar data with an SEM and some data processing with your detector also at high-angle
20:56 < nmz787> .wik Kikuchi line
20:56 < yoleaux> "Kikuchi lines pair up to form bands in electron diffraction from single crystal specimens, there to serve as "roads in orientation-space" for microscopists not certain at what they are looking. In transmission electron microscopes, they are easily seen in diffraction from regions of the specimen thick enough for multiple scattering.  …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikuchi_line
20:57 < nmz787> so that gives more crystal orientation than atomic number
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21:25 < nmz787> ' On cleaved surfaces, and surfaces self-assembled on the atomic scale, electron channeling patterns are likely to see growing application with modern microscopes in the years ahead.'
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21:47 < drazak> kanzure: know anyone who would have poured a sephadex column?
22:05 < fenn> i've never heard anything on the radio like this http://fennetic.net/irc/01_-_Elektrobank_(Radio_Edit).mp3
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22:53 < delinquentme> huk huk huk
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