--- Log opened Fri Nov 14 00:00:50 2014
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01:25 < nmz787_i> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/092442479187112G
01:26 < fenn> "sometimes the yak just needs a haircut"
01:26 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20Automatic%20compensation%20for%20the%20temperature%20coefficient%20of%20a%20photodiode%20in%20short-circuit%20mode%0A%20.pdf
01:28 < fenn> nmz787_i: http://fennetic.net/irc/theres_just_something_about_photodiodes.pdf
01:28 < nmz787_i> thanks
01:30 < fenn> maybe i should fix paperbot
01:31 < fenn> or at least give it a haircut
01:31 < fenn> the zotero stuff scares me
01:56 < fenn> kanzure i think the chinese manufacturing spam emails are harvested from the openmanufacturing list or skdb code
01:56 < fenn> i find it amusing though, some of the stuff they're selling is interesting
01:57 < fenn> "need a giant rubber bag made of discarded tires woven togther? buy now!"
01:57 < fenn> .wik geotextile
01:57 < yoleaux> "Geotextiles are permeable fabrics which, when used in association with soil, have the ability to separate, filter, reinforce, protect, or drain." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geotextile
02:00 < fenn> heh Behrokh Khoshnevis is the guy hyping Contour Crafting (3d printed houses)
02:01 < fenn> co author of "knowledge representation for automated process planning"
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03:03 < archels> anyone  going to TransVision 2014?
03:04 < archels> Aubrey de Grey, Anders Sandberg, Natasha Vita-More are some of the line-up
03:05 < archels> 3 days, registration is free
03:27 < nmz787_i> fenn: I was thinking we could start with making a 'pdfbot' that requires you to give it a .pdf link... humans are currently pretty successful at being able to do that
03:28 < nmz787_i> that way we can ensure the downloader stuff works
03:29 < fenn> often there is no pdf link
03:29 < fenn> unless you already have access
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03:58 < nmz787_i> fenn: my exprozy proxy thing was meant to take a URL and return the data but fetched from the proxy... so if it was given a URL to an HTML file with no PDF link (but a placeholder), it would return an HTML of the logged-in version of the page
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05:28 < kanzure> paperbot should revert to working if nmz787's changes are removed
05:28 < kanzure> .botsnack
05:28 < yoleaux> :D
05:31 < fenn> the ezproxy stuff?
05:33 < fenn> or make_libgen_doi_url?
05:35 < fenn> rather than return "pdf" in response.headers["content-type"] maybe shoud do a "file" command (tests for magic numbers in the downloaded file)
05:35 < kanzure> ezproxy stuff
05:35 < kanzure> quite literally you can get away with reverting his commits literally
05:36 < fenn> i see a lot of potentially useful stuff in here; i'd rather not just throw it all out without understanding what's going on
05:37 < kanzure> fuck that
05:37 < kanzure> i reimplemented it in paperbot v2 in paperbot/
05:38 < kanzure> just haven't tested that stuff (and it's also not hooked up to zotero)
05:38 < fenn> uh, why arent we using paperbot v2 then?
05:38 < kanzure> because it doesn't implement or communicate with zotero
05:38 < kanzure> also because it doesn't have irc parts
05:38 < fenn> i hate zotero anyway
05:38 < kanzure> and no tests..
05:39 < kanzure> well, if you want to replicate their work go for it: https://github.com/zotero/translators
05:39 < fenn> yeah there is a lot of bullshit there
05:40 < kanzure> okay so there's "finishing up paperbot v2" and then there's "git revert commit1..commitN" on paperbot v1....
05:45 < fenn> would it make sense to move paperbot v2 onto a branch
05:47 < kanzure> only if you want it to involve deleting paperbot v1
05:47 < kanzure> or overriding paperbot v1 things
05:47 < kanzure> otherwise, it seems okay existing in the same branch at the moment
05:49 < fenn> i'm just going to run "production" paperbot on 6cb280fa7b31ddefe8844bf71ddb32823b435f9f then
05:56 < kanzure> right.. revert ce1d123a9c25309764bad3b729e8f4e4ce95cdaa..ae35ea0895ae027902105ccfd9702f84e027879f inclusive
05:57  * kanzure is done sending hate mail to melanie
05:58 < kanzure> i can't believe ieet publishes that sort of crap
05:58 < kanzure> http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/swan20141113
05:58 < kanzure> that chart is like 90% wrong
06:00 < kanzure> why is it that ieet has been so anti-transhumanist and anti-doing-good-work since forever
06:00 < kanzure> is there some sort of physical intolerance they have to doing good work?
06:01 < kanzure> or do they merely exist to upset me with low quality junk?
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06:03 < fenn> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/092442479187112G
06:03 < Qfwfq> Any decent CLI tools for research paper organisation? My ~/tmp/papers is a mess.
06:04 < Qfwfq> Other than, say, 'mkdir' and 'mv'.
06:04 < fenn> topic modeling or various machine learning software i guess
06:05 < kanzure> jotmuch
06:05 < paperbot> IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/home/bryan/public_html/papers2/paperbot/\n Automatic compensation for the temperature coefficient of a photodiode in short-circuit mode\n .pdf' (file "/srv/ikiwiki/paperbot/modules/papers.py", line 511, in download_url)
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06:06 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/092442479187112G
06:06 < Qfwfq> So I thought. GitHub search doesn't bring up anything useful, but most have decent enough OCR that I could figure out something on my own.
06:06 < fenn> what commit is paperbot now?
06:06 < fenn> also i think that was a bad download (note the \n's in the title)
06:06 < Qfwfq> Or, at least, embedded text for recent stuff.
06:06 < kanzure> whatever was pushed to /srv/git/paperbot.git
06:07 < fenn> i didnt push anything
06:07 < kanzure> then how do you expect this to work
06:07 < Qfwfq> jotmuch is neat
06:08 < fenn> usually you have a release branch and checkout that branch to actually run it
06:08 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20Automatic%20compensation%20for%20the%20temperature%20coefficient%20of%20a%20photodiode%20in%20short-circuit%20mode%0A%20.pdf
06:08 < fenn> uh.. but i was lazy and just checked it out without making a branch
06:08 < kanzure> there are other reasons why paperbot is brittle and can only be run under my account etc...
06:08 < kanzure> (environment variables too...)
06:09  * Qfwfq proxy envy
06:09 < fenn> anything besides hardcoded paths and scihub_password?
06:10 < Qfwfq> Oh, you're using scihub
06:10 < fenn> theoretically
06:10 < Qfwfq> I should map Tor exit nodes to see if any have provide journal access
06:10 < kanzure> LOGGING, and write access
06:10 < kanzure> Qfwfq: https://github.com/NullHypothesis/exitmap
06:11 < Qfwfq> Yep
06:13 < kanzure> i apologize for all the hardcoded paths but v2 don't have that shit
06:17 < fenn> ok i dont know about git branching but i made a branch "v1" which is probably broken, but it's from just before nmz's commits
06:18 < kanzure> puuush it
06:18 < gnusha_> paperbot: reload papers
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06:19 < fenn> oh i see
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06:19 < yorick> Qfwfq: let me know if you find something
06:19 < yorick> or make something
06:19 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/092442479187112G
06:20 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20Automatic%20compensation%20for%20the%20temperature%20coefficient%20of%20a%20photodiode%20in%20short-circuit%20mode%0A%20.pdf
06:21 < kanzure> er...
06:21 < fenn> that's about what i expected
06:21 < kanzure> that may be good or bad
06:21 < fenn> try a url that has worked
06:22 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7067/abs/nature04405.html
06:22 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnature04405
06:22 < kanzure> blah
06:24 < kanzure> (brb)
06:26 < fenn> ugh i hate python code with **kwargs)
06:27 < fenn> "and then shove some unknowable crap on the end"
06:32 < fenn> rcallahan i'm looking at you
06:32 < fenn> wtf is this:  def _fn(*ar, **kw):
06:33 < fenn> oh wait that was pwang
06:33 < yorick> Qfwfq: have you seen the SNARK paper? zero-knowledge proofs of correct program execution
06:39 < Qfwfq> yorick: Nope, but mail me a copy and I'll check it out on the right side of the Ballmer curve?
06:39 < Qfwfq> exitmap is pretty slow
06:40 < yorick> can paperbot find SNARKs for C Verifying Program Executions Succinctly and in Zero Knowledge
06:40 < yorick> paperbot: help
06:40 < fenn> paperbot prefers links
06:40 < fenn> .g SNARKs for C Verifying Program Executions Succinctly and in Zero Knowledge
06:40 < yoleaux> https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/507.pdf
06:40 < yorick> yeah that's the one
06:40 < yorick> Qfwfq: ^
06:41 < yorick> (not that I understand much of it)
06:41 < Qfwfq> http://www.tau.ac.il/~tromer/papers/csnark-20130816.pdf
06:42 < fenn> it's all greek
06:43 < kanzure> that's actually on the server already
06:43 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/snarks/
06:47 < yorick> kanzure: the bitcoin pegged sidechains paper referred to it as a shiny new sidechain example that I forgot about why it was so whiny
06:47 < yorick> shiny*
06:47 < kanzure> bug andytoshi
06:48 < fenn> it lets you do SPV proofs without exchanging a lot of data (i think, not that i even know what that means)
06:48 < fenn> because "proofs" are really just a bunch of results of coin-flipping experiments
06:49 < fenn> like "if you're so smart what's 2+2"
06:49 < fenn> key word is "Succinctly"
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07:00 < kanzure> so er paperbot is back to sorta working i think
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07:05 < kanzure> .title https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5280
07:05 < yoleaux> setmocktime RPC command for regression testing by gavinandresen · Pull Request #5280 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:18 < fenn> declare victory and go home
07:20 < kanzure> me being pedantic:
07:20 < kanzure> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5282
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07:51 < kanzure> https://www.humanbrainproject.eu/documents/10180/538356/HBP+Achievements+Year+1/d0dc08df-cdc7-4242-a677-eef632f622c3
07:52 < kanzure> paperbot: https://www.humanbrainproject.eu/documents/10180/538356/HBP+Achievements+Year+1/d0dc08df-cdc7-4242-a677-eef632f622c3
07:53 < kanzure> "Evolutionary acquisition of behavior to build structural objects by virtual creatures"
07:54 < kanzure> so did they actually get little bugs to make novel bug-built structures?
07:54 < fenn> i didnt read it but i thought they just threw blocks into piles
07:54 < kanzure> ants don't really build an ant colony, it just sort of happens
07:54 < kanzure> as a result of local action by many agents that may not know the overall plan
07:54 < kanzure> (or that their behavior is causing structures to be built)
07:54 < kanzure> "if you turn left long enough, good things happen"
07:55 < fenn> what does that have to do with the human brain project?!
07:56 < kanzure> i was closing tabs
07:56 < fenn> ok nm
07:56 < fenn> the link is a huge pdf
07:58 < fenn> just a bunch of neuron porn
07:59 < archels> did someone say neuron porn
08:00 < kanzure> "BigBrain reconstruction: A human post mortem brain has been processed, 3D reconstructed, and published as the BigBrain data set (Amunts et al., Science, 2013). The challenges of unifying different scales and data types into a common reference system for human brain modelling are outlined by Amunts et al. in Neuroimage (2014)."
08:01 < kanzure> "Brain simulation software: HBP efforts have been aligned with community-driven roadmaps for the NEST, NEURON, and STEPS simulators, ensuring long-term viability and global community participation. In its first year, the HBP has achieved substantial scale-up of NEST on massively parallel computers (Kunkel et al., Frontiers in Neuroinformatics, 2014), a reduction of the memory footprint by a factor of six in NEURON, and advances in the ...
08:02 < kanzure> ... parallelisation of STEPS."
08:02 < kanzure> "Microcircuits: A first draft cellular and synaptic reconstruction and simulation of the rodent somatosensory microcircuit with 207 different cell-types and 40 million synapses has been completed and released through an online portal."
08:02 < andytoshi> yorick: hiya, i can answer sidechain and snark qs
08:02 < archels> yeah, Katrin Amunts gave pretty imrpessive presentation on that a month or two ago
08:02 < kanzure> "Mesocircuits (brain regions): Simulation of a part of the rodent neocortex with 3 million morphological detailed neurons and 400 million dynamic synapses has been achieved. A first draft reconstruction of the cerebellar network of neurons has also been made."
08:03 < yorick> andytoshi: I don't really have questions
08:03 < kanzure> "Large-scale simulation: Models with 3 million morphologically detailed or 1 billion point neurons can now run routinely on the supercomputers at CSCS and JUELICH, respectively."
08:03 < kanzure> "Software development: A prototype tool for indexing exascale spatial data sets is ready to be deployed on the Platform. Libraries for streaming simulation data to visualisation and for streaming remotely generated imagery content to high-resolution display walls have been developed. A first version of the coarse-grained programming model PyCOMPSs has been developed and is already in use."
08:04 < andytoshi> yorick: roughly, sidechains work by isolated blockchains embedding compact proofs in each other ... snarks let you create compact proofs for waaay more things than are currently feasible, that's all
08:04 < andytoshi> "that's all"
08:05 < kanzure> "Portable neuromorphic systems: For both hardware systems, small-scale portable neuromorphic computing devices have been produced. These devices are USB add-ons for conventional laptops and are now in use by outside groups and students to explore the potential of neuromorphic computing."
08:05 < kanzure> seems to be it
08:06 < fenn> i liked the look of the neurorobotics platform, can't find any images online yet
08:06 < archels> not sure what to make of 'achievements' that have been formulated in such a dumbed-down manner
08:07 < kanzure> well, the reconstruction sounds useful i guess, if they can get it to run in nest/neuron/steps
08:07 < fenn> hmm supposedly there are 3000 images in this pdf
08:07 < kanzure> and maybe the hardware is nest/neuron/steps-optimized
08:08 < kanzure> and "a common reference system" for brain modelling is pretty important.
08:08 < kanzure> archels: can you find the links for paperbot to try to fetch? (for those references in the quotes)
08:08 < kanzure> (Amunts et al., Science, 2013)
08:08 < kanzure> Amunts et al. in Neuroimage (2014)
08:08 < kanzure> Kunkel et al., Frontiers in Neuroinformatics, 2014
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08:09 < archels> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/340/6139/1472.full.pdf
08:10 < kanzure> hrm maybe it's still busted
08:10 < kanzure> sigh
08:11 < kanzure> fenn: in addition to additive/subtractive manufacturing, and motion-based assembly, how would you classify chemical reactions or unique material properties that are not explained as clumping two pieces of matter together. (in the context of the process planning stuff from last evening)
08:12 < fenn> coool http://fennetic.net/irc/neurorobotics.jpg
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08:13 < archels> hehe
08:13 < archels> that chap is no less impressive in real life
08:14 < archels> there's a bunch of support equipment sitting in a box behind it though, which hasn't yet been worked into the body itself
08:14 < archels> at least, last time I saw it (last year-ish)
08:15 < kanzure> support equipment is fine as long as it's not a battery
08:15 < kanzure> or er, i mean, as long as it's not power
08:15 < kanzure> a battery is okay, if it actually fits on the chasis or something
08:15 < kanzure> but tethered robots are so 70s
08:15 < fenn> no, it must be able to digest dirt and generate nuclear power from trace elements
08:16 < fenn> and fly
08:16 < kanzure> "congrats, your robot legs attached to 5 meter thick steel rod from your ceiling can move its legs... now what."
08:17 < fenn> it does seem like they could do better than a two-stroke chainsaw motor
08:17 < fenn> noisy solution
08:17 < fenn> the boston robotics mule for example
08:17 < archels> like BigDog
08:17 < archels> aye
08:18 < fenn> like, what about stirling engines
08:18 < archels> that's like expecting humans to get by on photosynthesis
08:19 < fenn> it would burn ethanol or whatever (bender would be proud)
08:19 < kanzure> archels did you meet that robot
08:19 < archels> yes, and its brother
08:19 < archels> back at Zürich
08:19 < fenn> why aren't there any photos online?
08:19 < fenn> does it have a name?
08:20 < archels> they're called Ecce
08:20 < archels> http://www.ifi.uzh.ch/ailab/robots.html
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08:21 < archels> oh, they even have Ecce mailing lists
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08:25 < fenn> kanzure i would describe chemical reactions as processes. in my paradigm (manufacturing) techniques utilize processes to accomplish desired change
08:26 < kanzure> if humans were only limited to making motion-based plans, then there'd be no way to know that mixing chemicals would make something useful
08:26 < fenn> the FDM technique utilizes a plastic melting process to make plastic parts
08:27 < fenn> the SLA technique utilizes a light sensitive chemical reaction process to make plastic parts
08:27 < kanzure> those machines sort of hide that though ("just gimme the shape you want")
08:27 < fenn> it still happens though
08:27 < fenn> .wik it still moves
08:27 < yoleaux> "It Still Moves is the third album by the rock band My Morning Jacket. The album garnered positive reviews and is often considered the band's best work alongside Z. The song "Run Thru" is included in Rolling Stone's "100 Greatest Guitar Songs". The album also marks the first appearance of drummer Patrick Hallahan." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Still_Moves
08:28 < fenn> bah
08:28 < fenn> .wik eppur si muove
08:28 < yoleaux> ""And yet it moves" or "Albeit It does move" (Italian: Eppur si muove; [epˈpur si ˈmwɔːve]) is a phrase said to have been uttered before the Inquisition by the Italian mathematician, physicist and philosopher Galileo Galilei (1564–1642) in 1633 after being forced to recant that the Earth moves around the Sun rather than the opposite way." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eppur_si_muove
08:30 < fenn> kanzure all human activity is accomplished by moving something
08:30 < kanzure> that doesn't mean that human planning consists solely of knowledge about human movement
08:30 < fenn> whether typing or rotating a temperature setting knob
08:31 < kanzure> if it only took moving and flopping around, we would have had a singularity thousands of years ago
08:31 < fenn> arguably we did
08:31 < fenn> holocene epoch
08:32 < eudoxia> sigh what's this stuff where every important period in human history is termed a singularity
08:32 < eudoxia> .wik singularity
08:32 < yoleaux> "Disambiguation: Singularity" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singularity
08:32 < eudoxia> of son of a bitch
08:33 < eudoxia> .wik technological singularity
08:33 < yoleaux> "The technological singularity hypothesis is that accelerating progress in technologies will cause a runaway effect wherein artificial intelligence will exceed human intellectual capacity and control, thus radically changing or even ending civilization in an event called the singularity." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity
08:33 < kanzure> er, i don't think historians have ever argued that recursive self-improvement happened
08:33 < eudoxia> has posthuman intelligence appeared? no? therefore no singularity
08:33 < fenn> that's a pretty narrow view
08:34 < eudoxia> yes
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08:34 < fenn> so nanotech without AI doesn't qualify?
08:34 < eudoxia> if nanotech leads to posthuman intelligence, sure
08:34 < eudoxia> if it doesn't, not a singularity
08:34 < fenn> bah
08:34 < fenn> i respectfully disagree, sir
08:35 < kanzure> what is the functional benefit of having a singularity definition like that though
08:36 < archels> we're just going to keep redefining what it means to be human so that we never actually reach a post-human state
08:36 < fenn>  Stanislaw Ulam described "ever accelerating progress of technology and changes in the mode of human life, which gives the appearance of approaching some essential singularity in the history of the race beyond which human affairs, as we know them, could not continue"
08:36 < archels> just like with "artificial intelligence"
08:36 < kanzure> oh please.. the singularity isn't about revisionism.
08:36 < kanzure> hard takeoff has a very speciifc meaning
08:36 < kanzure> http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/AI_takeoff
08:37 < fenn> this comes out of ideas about what it's like falling into a black hole ... you never actually get to the black hole
08:37 < archels> kanzure: that definition is even more vague
08:37 < kanzure> that sounds unrelated though
08:38 < archels> anyway, a discussion about the precise conditions under which a singularity can be said to have happenend is probably without much merit
08:38 < eudoxia> i never liked the word anyways
08:40 < fenn> because it's been abused and used to mean something else without explicitly recognizing the change in meaning
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08:41 < fenn> singularity just means "we cant predict what happens next"
08:41 < fenn> but not in a chaotic system
08:41 < kanzure> okay then what's the word for ai-making-better-ai
08:42 < fenn> "intelligence explosion" i guess
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08:43 < archels> recursive self-improvement
08:43 < fenn> that can apply to humans tho
08:44 < kanzure> that's fine
08:44 < kanzure> and should be acceptable (why would it matter if it's "human" or "not human"?)
08:44 < fenn> i dunno
08:44 < fenn> humans have a fixed lifecycle
08:44 < fenn> at least i dont see anyone talking about making adult clones in less than a second
08:45 < kanzure> that is not necessarily required
08:47 < catern> i sure do
08:47 < catern> robin hanson
08:47 < catern> depends by what you mean by clone i suppose
08:48 < catern> depends on*
08:48 < fenn> catern: link?
08:50 < catern> http://hanson.gmu.edu/uploads.html
08:50 < catern> he has written about this a lot
08:50 < catern> http://www.overcomingbias.com/tag/ems
08:50 < fenn> right, well, some people think uploads are just "neuromorphic ai"
08:50 < kanzure> is that a problem ?
08:51 < fenn> lol “I Robot, You Unemployed”
08:53 < fenn> so many wildly different definitions for "human"
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08:55 < fenn> that's racist!
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09:09 < heath> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8599955
09:09 < heath> .title
09:09 < yoleaux> Idea that intestinal bacteria affect mental health gains ground | Hacker News
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09:12 < heath> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8591038
09:12 < yoleaux> Plants talk to each other using an internet of fungus | Hacker News
09:13 < fenn> "Do you know of any studies supporting the 10x [programmer] idea that have been done in the past 30 years?"
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09:24 < maaku> fenn: humans can't (yet) improve their computing substrate
09:25 < maaku> that's the distinction that makes AGI so transformative
09:26 < maaku> with WBE simply being brute-force AGI
09:26 < fenn> i remember being amazed that someone had actually done a scientific experiment on programmers (programmer performance in batch computing vs interactive)
09:26 < fenn> this seems like a huge blind spot
09:26 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIFm8Jtk-B0
09:26 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQaE6SorjR8
09:26 < fenn> .title
09:26 < yoleaux> Rage! - YouTube
09:34 < fenn> i should have some reference on projectrho about space battles not being like naval battles
09:36 < fenn> also about how scifi spaceships almost always look totally implausible
09:37 < heath> a few nice tips for simulating packet loss and latency
09:37 < heath> http://www.bravenewgeek.com/sometimes-kill-9-isnt-enough/
09:37 < fenn> this is what spaceships looks like http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/realdesigns.php
09:37 < kanzure> it wasn't completely ridiculous http://cdn.androidpolice.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/nexus2cee_unnamed-95.png
09:37 < kanzure> and it's not a bad way to spend a few hours
09:37 < kanzure> i think i'm going to convince andytoshi to go see it tonight with me
09:39 < fenn> where's the reaction mass? where's the fuel? why is it square?
09:39 < fenn> it looks more like a telecom relay
09:39 < kanzure> i wasn't aware that's what we're calling square these days
09:39 < fenn> square things in a circle
09:40 < fenn> no radiators
09:40 < fenn> must run on magic
09:41 < kanzure> runs on love
09:41 < fenn> weapons-grade love
09:41 < kanzure> worst propellant ever
09:42 < fenn> james cameron put all this effort into his spaceship and it gets like 10 seconds of screen time
09:42 < fenn> wtf world
09:47 < andytoshi> kanzure: see what? something dylan thomas related?
09:47 < kanzure> interstellar
09:48 < andytoshi> kk convinced ;)
09:55 < maaku> i need to see that
09:55 < kanzure> i can only take people in austin
09:56 < heath> might be time for a google hangout over your phone
09:56 < kanzure> and for some reason i think taking the entirety of blockstream would be like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auJnn1iPeGE
09:57 < maaku> heh IMAX over mobile hangout isn't the same ;)
09:58 < maaku> haha awesome. i hadn't seen that episode
09:58 < kanzure> wouldn't be a google hangout, would just be slack
10:03 < kanzure> "SSLMate [https://sslmate.com] sells SSL certs from the command line for $15.95/year. The sslmate command line tool takes care of properly generating the key and CSR, and properly assembling the certificate bundle containing the chain certificate. Certificates secure both example.com and www.example.com. No more hard-to-use websites or obscure openssl commands."
10:03 < kanzure> cc jrayhawk
10:03 < kanzure> oh, if it's just a replacement for openssl commands, nevermind
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10:53 < heath> not sure what to think about this
10:53 < heath> http://edge.org/conversation/the-myth-of-ai
10:53 < heath> not much time to look at it really
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11:00 < maaku> heath: i only read the intro and conclusion, but it sounds like "let's not talk about computers as people because that'll make our jobs easier"
11:00 < maaku> which doesn't seem like much of an argument...
11:05 < fenn> jaron lanier isn't worth the time
11:18 < kanzure> haha they let jaron on edge.org that's hilarious
11:18 < kanzure> are they accepting just anyone these days?
11:20 < fenn> he was always punching above his weight
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11:23 < kanzure> "edge.org presents marc fawzi"
11:24 < kanzure> i have been acked https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5282#issuecomment-63111391
11:25 < fenn> you are now one of the few, the elite, the illuminati masters of the invisible web of money that controls our world, from the land itself to the food in a baby's mouth
11:26 < kanzure> not my first pull request
11:28 < maaku> yes, kanzure was inducted in the shadowy bretheren of the coin some time ago
11:29 < kanzure> i bought my way in with papers and cool science
11:29 < fenn> if you can't baffle them with bullshit, spam them to death
11:30  * fenn prays to the dread god Gish
11:30 < kanzure> so fenn what about my code flinging. surely that's worth something.
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11:31 < fenn> i have no idea
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11:33 < fenn> wow, jaron lanier thinks there isn't an algorithm good enough to pilot a drone and kill people
11:33 < fenn> or that it isn't important or something
11:34 < kanzure> you already knew he was not too clever
11:35 < fenn> he also thinks there aren't self-driving cars
11:35 < nmz787_i> my car keeps driving just fine when i let go of the steering wheel, sometimes
11:36 < fenn> "eppur si muove"
11:36 < nmz787_i> internets are weird, I wonder how many science/engineering people have their business licenses at their home address
11:36 < nmz787_i> fenn: is that a translation of 'you sir are an idiot'?
11:37 < fenn> not in so many words
11:37 < nmz787_i> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7LrViaPq7M
11:37 < fenn> .title
11:37 < yoleaux> You, sir, are an idiot - YouTube
11:39 < kanzure> he lost everything on bitcoin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95PWAA-kXAc
11:42 < nmz787_i> lol
11:42 < nmz787_i> :D
11:44 < nmz787_i> the simpsons are one of the few TV things I watch these days, and they aren't as whopper-packed as they were/seemed when I was a kid, but they definitely still have some zingers now and then. The Simpsons are my extended family, I hope they don't ever stop having a new weekly episode.
11:44 < nmz787_i> there are a bunch of good videos and books (apparently) on math and the simpsons, which is pretty cool
11:45 < kanzure> you would accept the simpsons as your extended family over hplusroadmap? geeze
11:45 < kanzure> you're going to make paperbot cry
11:46 < paperbot> :(
11:47 < fenn> heavy investment in a high-end bookmark company
11:47 < fenn> that's a good enough description of hplusroadmap
11:48 < kanzure> "buy irc m.d. bonds"
11:52 < fenn> .title http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/identity.php
11:52 < yoleaux> Stayling Alive
11:52 < fenn> choose your own adventure
11:53 < fenn> for some reason after being gradually transitioned to silicon they forced me back into an organic body
11:53 < fenn> not much of a choice
12:13 < nmz787_i> nah hplusroadmap is part of my extended family too, it's more real but in a more-apparently virtual manner
12:17 < fenn> what if we had animated yellow avatars with spherical eyes that tracked your mouse cursor
12:20 < nmz787_i> would they be ASCII avatars?
12:21 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8607499
12:21 < yoleaux> Inmates at California’s San Quentin prison learn to code | Hacker News
12:25 < fenn> there should be a tv show called "so you think you can code"
12:26 < kanzure> dramatization of code reviews?
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12:28 < fenn> well i guess most celebrity coders wouldn't be particularly engaging and charismatic on television, so it would have to be more like junkyard wars where you have a team try to build something and then the teams race each other at the end
12:28 < fenn> i guess this is what the demoscene is all about anyway
12:29 < fenn> pouet
12:30 < kanzure> thanks for fixing up paperbot
12:30 < fenn> lol
12:30 < kanzure> not sarcasm
12:30 < kanzure> nobody ever touches the code
12:30 < fenn> i didnt do anything
12:30 < kanzure> such modesty
12:31 < fenn> it takes a while to get familiar with what exists before you can fix anything
12:31 < nmz787_i> oO there are new commits?
12:31 < fenn> not being able to just run paperbot as a command line script makes a barrier to entry also
12:31 < nmz787_i> this is running code or for the v2?
12:31 < nmz787_i> fenn: agreed
12:32 < fenn> its the same old code
12:32 < fenn> i just added a branch tag
12:32 < kanzure> the code in paperbot/paperbot/ is more runnable as a command line tool, although there's no entrypoint yet
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12:34 < fenn> it only has paperbot.logging when i load it as a python module
12:36 < kanzure> either edit __init__.py or import something (import paperbot.whatever)
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12:42 < fenn> what's the point of "_prefixed to avoid cluttering namespace"
12:43 < fenn> the namespace is so uncluttered it's empty
12:44 < kanzure> certain functions are irrelevant to the actual purpose of a file or module
12:44 < kanzure> just call me pedanto, lord of pedanticism
12:47 < fenn> yes my lord
12:47 < nmz787_i> lately i've been using namespaces more and more to avoid being confused about where a function is being imported from
12:47 < fenn> ok this is a lot easier to wrap my head around
12:48 < kanzure> that's because it's not a pile of shit
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13:02 < gnusha_> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=5a65286b fenn: connect things together for easy interactive exploration of paperbot capabilities
13:02 < gnusha_> paperbot: reload papers
13:02 < fenn> i just added submodules to __init__
13:03 < kanzure> "reload papers" doesn't actually work right now
13:03 < kanzure> so if you want that to actually happen you should bug me
13:03 < fenn> ok
13:03 < kanzure> otherwise gnusha's attempt will continue to not do anything
13:03 < fenn> it is running v1 which is in modules which is not what i'm working on
13:07 < kanzure> right
13:07 < kanzure> and also, i have a git working dir somewhere else that is not getting those pushes, so gnusha asking for a reload wont do nothin'
13:07 < kanzure> and also, python reload() is pretty bonkers anyway
13:08 < kragenjaviersita> yeah
13:09 < fenn> maybe gnusha should not try to reload then, since anyone can tell paperbot to reload if they want
13:09 < kragenjaviersita> reload() brings in the entire problem of persistence and schema upgrade
13:10 < kragenjaviersita> it's unavoidably bonkers
13:10 < kragenjaviersita> not patching existing objects, as in Python, is one of the less useful things it could be doing I guess
13:11 < kragenjaviersita> I've beeen playing a lot with interval arithmetic today and yesterday in Python
13:11 < kanzure> paperbot only listens to gnusha
13:11 < kragenjaviersita> this has been a surprisingly unproductive thin to do
13:12 < kanzure> and reloading is not actually bad (afaik)
13:12 < kragenjaviersita> I got a little bit of a speedup on Mandelbrot
13:12 < kragenjaviersita> but not much
13:12 < fenn> is modelo mature? i just got some error about TraitError being undefined
13:12 < kanzure> oh yeah i keep forgetting to fix that
13:12 < kanzure> so, TraitError is undefined yes
13:12 < kanzure> but it would still be raising an error anyway
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13:13 < kanzure> have you changed anything?
13:13 < kragenjaviersita> because
13:14 < fenn> the error was in modelo
13:14 < kanzure> it's raising TraitError, which is undefined
13:14 < kanzure> so even if it was defined, you would still be getting an error
13:14 < fenn> /home/fenn/py-lib/modelo/trait/trait_types.pyc in validate(self, obj, value)
13:14 < fenn> right but it shouldnt do that
13:15 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/modelo/issues/1
13:15 < fenn> oh this is yours
13:15 < kanzure> i stole it from d3vz3r0
13:15 < kanzure> and dingo worked on something very similar in a past life
13:15 < fenn> yeah it seems like a good idea
13:15 < kanzure> "what do you mean you don't want to use a database?"
13:24 < kanzure> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3656
13:25 < kanzure> haha "Reissuing a transaction without reusing the inputs is unsafe. You cannot do this and be confident you will not be robbed, because there is nothing preventing both transactions from going through. No amount of checking can provide protection in that case, because the prior transaction may not have gone through yet but still may go through for as long as it has not been conflicted— or even after it has been, if the conflict can be ...
13:25 < kanzure> ... removed in a reorg. It may be slow, it may not work super well, but it is the only way to prevent transactions from being paid twice. This has nothing to do with malleability: You simply cannot pay someone twice and not risk them actually getting paid twice, unless their original payment is impossible or the transactions are mutually exclusive."
13:36 < nmz787_i> some guys were talking at work a few days ago about how bitcoin doesn't support reversible transactions, but their bank/credit-cards do... I tried arguing that the banks/CCs have that agreement/protocol setup and also involve insurance companies in the chance that some deadbeat spends stolen money and ends up in jail but never paying back. So that the reversal of fraudulent charges wasn't inherent to cash or banking, but to the
13:36 < nmz787_i> agreements of the large transaction processors.
13:43 < kanzure> i think the correct argument there is that "your merchants are eating the costs of that by giving you a markup of 3-8%"
13:43 < fenn> ...whether you pay with a credit card or not
13:44 < kanzure> sometimes they charge you less if you have cash on you
13:44 < kanzure> (er, and choose to pay in cash)
13:44 < delinquentme> In what instances is a DOI insufficient to locate a paper?
13:44 < kanzure> papers without DOIs
13:44 < kanzure> next question?
13:45 < kanzure> what's the DOI for einstein's thesis
13:46 < delinquentme> generalize the set of papers which doesn't have a DOI
13:46 < nmz787_i> comparison of comet size to city of L.A. http://i.imgur.com/cF9fmG2.jpg
13:48 < delinquentme> yeahh nmz787 some local news tried to do this comparison.  Printed downtown map of oakland ... 3D printed comet ... WAM! placed comet on the map of downtown
13:48 < delinquentme> made no mention of scale
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13:48 < delinquentme> #newsSTORY!
13:48 < delinquentme> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25376054
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13:49 < delinquentme> Oh anddddd
13:49 < delinquentme> who do we know @ scripps
13:50 < kanzure> dingo_: delinquentme is wondering which papers might not have DOIs
13:51 < kanzure> dingo_: also, do you know of a good python pep8 linter thingy?
13:51 < dingo_> i guess it would be published by a publisher not willing to register with doi.org
13:51 < kanzure> oh yeha, flake8
13:51 < dingo_> I'm using 'prospector' now
13:51 < kanzure> dingo_: right.. so papers that are 100 years old? 200? with dead publisher
13:52 < dingo_> yeah, dead publisher is the key there, because even 200-year old pamphlets get a DOI if somebody cares to put the work into it
13:53 < dingo_> i still recall jstor's internal doi by heart, 10.2307
13:54 < dingo_> prefix, i should say
13:55 < dingo_> https://gist.github.com/jquast/30a5296e7c4439fc374a
13:55 < dingo_> thats a .prospector.yaml i use
13:56 < kanzure> i have passed your sage advice upstrema to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5282#issuecomment-63132149
13:56 < kanzure> *upstream
13:57 < dingo_> heh from the context around your small patch, this would fail a lot of lint
13:57 < dingo_> styling, anyway
13:59 < kanzure> yes
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14:02 < fenn> bleh time for bed
14:02 < gnusha_> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=0eb2995a fenn: typo
14:02 < gnusha_> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=b9a84563 fenn: forgot metakey in format keywords
14:02 < gnusha_> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=9a702bb1 fenn: thinko
14:02 < gnusha_> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=713e978f fenn: dont puke if the storage path is not writable
14:02 < gnusha_> paperbot: reload papers
14:02 < kanzure> commits happened!
14:03 < fenn> a wild commit appeared!
14:03 < kanzure> better battle it to death
14:03 < fenn> (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail?
14:04 < kanzure> (y)es
14:04 < fenn> Flail
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14:21  * nmz787_i can hear the battle music
14:21 < nmz787_i> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jmty_NiaXc
14:21 < yoleaux> Pokemon Red, Yellow, Blue Battle Music- Trainer - YouTube
14:22 < nmz787_i> hah, I will now associate this music with the lag in paperbot's response time
14:22  * nmz787_i smiles
14:30 < nmz787_i> http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/history-of-religion.html
14:31 < nmz787_i> pretty cool 90 second animation
14:33 < nmz787_i> fenn: wouldn't you want to also check for access on /tmp/
14:33 < nmz787_i> or is that always writeable
14:34 < nmz787_i> heh, fallback to not being able to write /tmp/ could be to return a private-message to the requestor with a base64 string :P
14:44 < nmz787_i> sketch I made earlier for programmable smell generator: http://imgur.com/5yt6e4o
14:44 < nmz787_i> tubing would be this type of stuff http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-3520/Poly-Tubing/1-x-1500-2-Mil-Poly-Tubing-Roll?pricode=WY747&gadtype=pla&id=S-3520&gclid=Cj0KEQiAypGjBRCPme6jmqu3gZsBEiQA8NAiIM9PzJFXtuk317w7wM5WUZNVaKg1QnODKJ4qQOe5yAcaAlJt8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds
14:54 < kanzure> the electric field in this room is throwing my groove off
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15:06 < delinquentme> kanzure, any idea if there are open source version of the single-cell selection microfluidic devices built by fluidigm?
15:06 < delinquentme> in 96 / 384 / 1536
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15:20 < nmz787_i> I haven't seen anything like that
15:20 < nmz787_i> not as a CAD design at least... lots of journal PDF pics
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15:22 < kanzure> yep, journal pdf pics are about it
15:22 < kanzure> sorry to bring you such bad news
15:24 < nmz787_i> open source SDR up to 30 MHz http://hackaday.io/project/1538-portablesdr    survey here to be notified of kit/assembled device availability   https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/2XVXMY2
15:24 < delinquentme> what would I be looking at cost wise for 1 off prints @ 10um feature sizes?
15:25 < nmz787_i> depends on turn around time and smoothness requirements
15:25 < delinquentme> lel. also i sent a question to someone @ quakes lab mentioning a particular technique published in someone elses research
15:25 < delinquentme> curious to see what le respond is
15:26 < delinquentme> nmz787, should I just hit the comercial mfgs ?
15:26 < delinquentme> and can I just prototype this in any cad software?
15:26 < nmz787_i> also depends if you mean 10 um wide channels, or 10 micron wide minimum line-width (since the line width is different from the space with which you can place adjacent lines)
15:27 < nmz787_i> most of them want solidworks if they list that info at all
15:27 < nmz787_i> most are on more of a relationship basis
15:27 < nmz787_i> the industry is not at the CNC level of operation unless you are a semiconductor mfg
15:27 < nmz787_i> and in that case you need big minimum order quanitites
15:28 < nmz787_i> delinquentme: if you want to write some software for converting freecad models to FIB models, I can probably work with you on initial designs for free/barter (for coding)
15:29 < nmz787_i> I also have a kicad board (arduino shield) for rs232 sniffing and emulation, which will enable field-of-view stiching and drift-correction
15:30 < nmz787_i> I am open to be convinced that this could be open-source (certainly the arduino board)
15:30 < nmz787_i> kanzure: that was a question for you actually, what license should I use for the board, and also for the software?
15:30 < nmz787_i> kanzure: can you just tell me, not point me to the wiki
15:32 < nmz787_i> delinquentme: for FIB operations around the world you can likely buy time by the minute or half-hour... where an hour is around $375 (so $6.25 / minute)
15:32 < nmz787_i> delinquentme: and you can calculate cost based on beam ablation rates
15:33 < nmz787_i> assuming you don't need the operator to do anything more than machine your parts
15:34 < nmz787_i> even a non-FIB shop will need to discus things though... you may give them a CAD file but then it may not be realistic for their processes... and will have to converse with you about what your actual needs are and how to adjust the design to fit the available toolset.
15:35 < delinquentme> nmz787, isnt a FIB a bit overkill?
15:35 < nmz787_i> this toolset is a little different at any place you go to until you hit the TSMC level of fab scale
15:35 < delinquentme> i guess though that would easily get you what you  need for the positive
15:36 < nmz787_i> FIB is very direct, that is a strength it has for sure
15:36 < nmz787_i> you can mill and add wires sequentially in the same machine
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15:37 < nmz787_i> s/add wires/add a range of chemicals which enhance/selectively etch or deposit materials/
15:37 < nmz787_i> and the process is essentially some form of CNC
15:38 < nmz787_i> so your computations for a toolpath (if you desire something more trivial than just a top-down ablation procedure) are pretty much the same for any other milling machine with those same degrees-of-freedom
15:39 < nmz787_i> (i.e. tilt and rotate and xyz postition)
15:41 < nmz787_i> delinquentme: you might try finding if there is useful info here, I haven't checked http://www.tsmc.com/english/dedicatedFoundry/services/eFoundry.htm
15:41 < nmz787_i> but again, that is not one-off scale at all, or even one-wafer
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16:22 < delinquentme> nmz787, so FIB can certainly handle more than just a 2D design right?
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16:39 < nmz787> delinquentme: yep
16:40 < nmz787> delinquentme: you can think of a basic machine as an xyz CNC, so a drill press (Z) and an XY table
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16:41 < nmz787> delinquentme: but then a lot of the systems have at least a rotating stage, and most also have tilt
16:41 < nmz787> or maybe tilt is more common than rotation... or they're equally common
16:43 < nmz787> cheapest FIB new is around $500k and runs completely off a 10 or 15A 110V AC system... so most of the 'shop fee' is operator time and making up the purchase-cost (and also consumables such as injectable gasses and the FIB source)
16:45 < nmz787> but it's essentially an old T.V. with a ions instead of electrons, so it's not terribly hard to grasp conceptually
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16:48 < ebowden> nmz787, what's an FIB?
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16:52 < nmz787> .wik FIB
16:52 < yoleaux> "Fib may refer to:" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIB
16:52 < nmz787> .wik focused ion beam
16:52 < yoleaux> "Focused ion beam, also known as FIB, is a technique used particularly in the semiconductor industry, materials science and increasingly in the biological field for site-specific analysis, deposition, and ablation of materials. An FIB setup is a scientific instrument that resembles a scanning electron microscope (SEM)." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focused_ion_beam
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17:05 < ebowden> Thanks.
17:05 < nmz787> is that good enough, or do you need more explaining?
17:28 < ebowden> Good enough.
17:28 < ebowden> Thankyou.
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17:57 < jrayhawk> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uUL4ooM6KI god bless america
17:57 < jrayhawk> .title
17:57 < yoleaux> Dancing magnetotactic bacteria - YouTube
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17:58 < jrayhawk> nevermind that the rednex are swedish and most westerns are italian
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18:00 < maaku> *most good westerns
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18:33 < kanzure> nmz787: you're asking for licensing hints about what in particular?
18:38 < nmz787> i asked in ##electronics and they said to use MIT
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18:40 < kanzure> for software sure
18:41 < kanzure> for hardware designs and schematics sure
18:41 < kanzure> but all the other hardware stuff is more murky
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18:41 < kanzure> you can choose a copyright license to express your intent but obv. it wont hold up against patent law
18:41 < kanzure> still, it is generally considered nice to apply some open source software license to your hardware to express intent at least
18:46 < delinquentme> what are the commercial implications of fabricating a microfluidic chip with novel assemblies which was paid for by NSF ?
18:46 < delinquentme> will I get sued if I open source designs?
18:48 < kanzure> what do you mean by "assemblies"?
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18:59 < delinquentme> designs would be a better word
19:00 < kanzure> http://recode.net/2014/11/14/bitcoin-company-coinbase-raising-new-investment-at-400-million-valuation/
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20:28 < nmz787> fenn: got kicad installed?
20:29 < nmz787> fenn: here are the gerbers for a thing I just made
20:29 < nmz787> https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/Vs4zWf41
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20:31 < nmz787> fenn: trying to clean up the kicad files now to upload then
20:31 < nmz787> them*
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--- Log closed Sat Nov 15 00:00:51 2014