--- Log opened Tue Nov 18 00:00:54 2014 00:22 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:27 -!- strages_ [sid11297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rwnifhedwkdypuqu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:27 -!- strages_ [sid11297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aisyrcyzskeqbpcf] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:09 < delinquentme> BTW human evolution / combinatorics is a really efficient way to breed really sexy humans 01:11 < bkero> Nah, mostly a way to breed humans who are themselves good at breeding 01:15 < delinquentme> http://instagram.com/abigailratchford 01:16 < delinquentme> bkero, simply play it by the numbers 01:18 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:33 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:38 -!- pete4242 [~smuxi@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:50 < jrayhawk> i am with delinquentme on this one 01:52 -!- NilsADK [~pi@217.72.221.154] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:40 -!- SolGr is now known as _sol_ 02:44 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:50 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:54 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:55 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@c-50-137-46-240.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:03 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:03 -!- poppingt` [~poppingto@197.237.156.120] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:03 -!- poppingt` is now known as poppingtonic 03:04 -!- poppingtonic is now known as Guest44635 03:04 -!- Guest44635 is now known as poppingtonic` 03:05 -!- poppingtonic` is now known as poppingtonic 03:05 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@197.237.156.120] has quit [Changing host] 03:05 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:06 < poppingtonic> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v10/n9/full/nmeth.2560 03:10 < archels> that link doesn't even work 03:15 < poppingtonic> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v10/n9/full/nmeth.2560.html 03:15 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnmeth.2560 03:15 < poppingtonic> archels: doh, forgot 'html' 03:31 -!- sheena2 [~home@d162-156-158-13.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:34 -!- sheena [~home@d162-156-158-13.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:48 -!- chido [chidori@pasky.or.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:53 -!- chido [chidori@pasky.or.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 04:09 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@179.26.169.236] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:18 < kanzure> hmph 04:38 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:44 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@179.26.169.236] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:08 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:09 -!- Boscop_ [me@188.126.90.192] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:11 -!- Boscop__ [~me@e102.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:18 < andytoshi> posted on schneier's blog https://medium.com/stanford-select/keeping-secrets-84a7697bf89f 06:24 < kanzure> hello 06:28 < kragen> heaveno 06:30 < kanzure> "Even if Inman could get a bill through Congress, Hellman said, the First Amendment would make it difficult to prevent researchers from speaking publicly about their work. If they didn’t publish their papers, “they’ll give 100 talks before they submit it for publication.”" 06:30 < kanzure> i bet i could give 100 talks... oh. 06:33 < archels> hah, HackerNews filters out submissions that mention the keyword "Thalmic" 06:33 < archels> http://hackaday.com/2014/11/18/thalmic-labs-shuts-down-free-developer-access/#comment-2152507 06:38 < kragen> yesterday we were talking about spambots that work hard enough that they are useful 06:38 < kanzure> older firmware https://s3.amazonaws.com/thalmicdownloads/firmware/myo-firmware-0.8.18-revd.hex 06:39 < kanzure> kragen: cheaper not to bother 06:40 < kragen> in a sense HN is the reverse 06:40 < kragen> by being a useful source of news they are able to suppress news they don't like 06:41 < kanzure> yawn 06:41 < kanzure> well-known bias is boring and obvious 06:41 < kragen> heh 06:49 -!- snuffeluffegus [~snuff@5.150.254.180] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:11 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:20 < kanzure> https://github.com/kevinburke/hamms "Hamms is designed to elicit failures in your HTTP Client. Connection failures, malformed response data, slow servers, fat headers, and more." 07:23 < kanzure> strange testing tool https://github.com/github/scientist 07:45 < kanzure> cool, my third-deep grandfather's movie thingy is up on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48jHfRVZ7rQ 07:52 < kanzure> hm no that's the wrong ancestry 07:54 < kanzure> fenn: this site will be killed soon, might have some relevant things http://space.mike-combs.com/ 07:54 < kanzure> like http://space.mike-combs.com/SCTHF.html 07:54 < kanzure> or http://space.mike-combs.com/TCoS.html 07:54 < kanzure> .title 07:54 < yoleaux> The Colonization of Space 07:55 < kanzure> .title http://space.mike-combs.com/gallery.htm 07:55 < yoleaux> The Space Settlement Art Gallery 07:55 < kanzure> .title http://strout.net/info/science/settlements/ 07:55 < yoleaux> Space Settlement Renderings 07:58 < archels> so, hum 07:59 < archels> when you're spinning that torus around, doesn't the stuff on the inner wall get flung towards the outside wall? 07:59 < kanzure> you have clearly never lived in space 08:01 < kragen> clearly 08:16 -!- Zinglon [~Zinglon@D549A77D.cm-10-1a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:18 < kanzure> http://blog.coinkite.com/post/102291566521/bitcoin-multisig 08:20 < kanzure> what's the point of this? wouldn't they intercept the hashes too? https://coinkite.com/offline/ 08:20 < andytoshi> blocked by cloudflare 08:24 < kanzure> 2hacker4u 08:30 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-mkjqmlmjwgoiwkgb] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:32 < andytoshi> generally the coinkite stuff is a bit silly, it's just an online multisig wallet 08:33 < kanzure> sure 08:34 < andytoshi> which by itself is not so silly, there isn't good software out there for connecting regular users so they can multisign 08:34 < andytoshi> but (a) their marketing has a few funny statements that suggest they don't fully understand what they're doing, (b) i'm not clear how they hope to make money on this 08:34 < andytoshi> i guess, bc.i has even less technical content and they have investment.. 08:38 < kanzure> heh 08:38 < kanzure> that's not how investment works, of course 08:38 < andytoshi> sure 08:39 < andytoshi> but if you gave me 48 hours i could build this entire service by myself with personal cash. so it does seem there is a low barrier to competition :) 08:41 < kanzure> that's the spirit 08:44 < andytoshi> actually it is an interesting cost-benefit question how much debt i should be willing to go into with the purpose of developing tech to fork myself 08:45 < andytoshi> is it unbounded? i guess there are diminishing returns once there are too many andytoshis 08:45 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:47 < kanzure> andytoshi: i don't think you can go into enough debt to do that anyway? 08:48 < andytoshi> that's correct, and it's totally worthless if i'm not in enough debt 08:49 < kanzure> how is it worthless in that situation? 08:49 < andytoshi> but as a thought experiment suppose i could obtain arbitrarily large amounts of cash at say 5% 08:49 < andytoshi> it's worthless because if i can't fork myself then i can't get the money back (by starting a company entirely staffed by andytoshis) 08:49 < kanzure> no, i said you can't get enough debt 08:49 < andytoshi> understood 08:50 < kanzure> suppose you had emulations running around doing clever things, but not a significant amount of debt.. what's wrong with this scenario? 08:50 < andytoshi> i don't think i can get the ems in the first place without a ton of debt 08:50 < kanzure> there was a paper about the expected economic impact of emulations 08:50 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/futurism/Economic%20implications%20of%20software%20minds.pdf 08:51 < andytoshi> will read 08:53 < kanzure> that is much shorter than i recalled 08:53 < kanzure> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=17337471284545041646&as_sdt=5,44&sciodt=0,44&hl=en 08:54 < kanzure> for some reason i thought it also included economic models for investment into software minds 08:54 < kanzure> and then points out where those investments begin to make sense even for unlikely payouts etc 08:54 < kanzure> based on economic conditions 09:01 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-mkjqmlmjwgoiwkgb] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:01 < kanzure> hmm, i suppose your question might actually be a little different really 09:01 < kanzure> you're not asking about accelerating returns from andytoshis that are modifying their ability to produce good andytoshis 09:02 < kanzure> because presumably the money just bought them directly, and not the production process there 09:02 < kanzure> s/money/debt 09:11 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-txqjumyasichvstb] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:21 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has quit [] 09:25 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:25 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:31 < andytoshi> i'm thinking, the money buys the production process, but there are no improvements 09:31 < andytoshi> they are straight bindly-created copies 09:31 < andytoshi> :P and they are doing traditional work ... to repay for the process 09:36 < kanzure> that sounds morbid :/ 09:37 < kanzure> anyway i think it's fair to speculate that each one would be capable of repaying its unit costs 09:38 < andytoshi> yeah, definitely each could pay for uit costs 09:38 < andytoshi> lol "sounds morbid" sounds exactly like life today 09:38 < kanzure> at least we are vaguely optimistic that there are improvements to be had 09:39 < kanzure> it's like saying "okay here's some software, but it can never be modified, and any bugs you find you're stuck with" 09:39 < andytoshi> well, just having the ems around would be a big improvement because they could go learn and study then explain things very efficiently to each other 09:39 < andytoshi> that situation is how we are right now, i don't think ems are a productive direction for improving it 09:39 < andytoshi> tho i am very optimistic about "constructive" ai research 09:40 < kanzure> suppose you had a fairly accurate whole brain emulation that worked and did something approximating a human brain 09:40 < kanzure> i would think that deleting certain portions of that emulation would have no impact or very little impact 09:40 -!- Boscop_ [me@188.126.90.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:40 < kanzure> and suddenly not emulating a chunk of 400 million neurons frees up capacity for other.. stuff.. 09:40 < andytoshi> hmm, this is true 09:41 < andytoshi> so i think you could get resource optimizations 09:41 < andytoshi> but i don't think you could get a ton of mileage out of that because minds go crazy if you do that to them 09:41 < andytoshi> eg imagine perceiving the world at even 1/2 its current speed, you'd adapt but it'd be frustrating and you wouldn't be able to identify with other humans properly 09:41 < kanzure> .wik anatoli bugorski 09:41 < yoleaux> "Anatoli Petrovich Bugorski (Russian: Анатолий Петрович Бугорский; born 1942) is a Russian scientist who was struck by a particle accelerator beam in 1978." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoli_Bugorski 09:41 < andytoshi> at 1/10 i think i'd be hopeless 09:43 < kanzure> oh i wouldn't assume uniformity like that 09:43 < kanzure> memory lookups can be fast, but maybe everything else is adapted to normal time 09:43 < andytoshi> hmm, that'd be very useful and (i'd guess) mostly harmless 09:44 < andytoshi> for example i suspect you and i can do lookups much faster than typical people 09:44 < andytoshi> and it just feels like "ideas come easily" 09:45 < kanzure> arguably even a very slow emulation would still be useful too 09:53 -!- Boscop [~me@unaffiliated/boscop] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:54 < andytoshi> useful, but i think a slow em is a morbid idea 09:55 < andytoshi> either it perceives too quickly and feels that there is never enough time 09:55 < andytoshi> or it's just stupid 09:55 < andytoshi> i think it'd be the worst thing to be stupid 09:58 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:59 < archels> "memory lookup" is a term that applies to Turing machines, not (human) brains 09:59 < archels> .g Time, consciousness and mind uploading 09:59 < yoleaux> http://faculty.cs.tamu.edu/choe/ftp/publications/choe-ijmc12-preprint.pdf 10:00 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:15 < kanzure> sensory/motor cortex can't be given arbitrary input in an emulation? 10:16 < archels> well, define "arbitrary" 10:18 < archels> sensory/motor already implies that there's a body and an environment there to sense 10:30 < kanzure> it's a part of the brain 10:31 < kanzure> bunch of neurons squished together that map (in a weird, distorted, but known way) to body parts (more specifically, nerve endings) 10:40 < archels> well, that is a considerable oversimplification 10:40 < archels> if we were only talking about the peripheral nerve endings, we could just give the upload a human-like avatar 10:41 < kanzure> avatar for what? 10:41 < kanzure> hey wait a second you're not andytoshi 10:41 < archels> for communication; to interact with the world outside the emulation 10:42 < archels> ... 10:42 < kanzure> it seems you were not andytoshi a while ago 10:42 < kanzure> interesting 10:42 < kanzure> yeah i wouldn't have said that bullshit to you about the sensorimotor cortex had i known it was you 10:43 < archels> hehe 10:43 < kanzure> but yeah, i do assume i can inject signals or trigger neurons to fire 10:43 < archels> it's an interesting discussion, nonetheless 10:43 < kanzure> and violate things like conservation of mass and energy as much as i please 10:45 < archels> yeah, in a virtual reality, you can implement any type of dynamical model you want 10:45 < archels> I wonder how far we can push that, though 10:45 < archels> I suspect the human brain wouldn't fare too well in four-dimensional space, for example 10:45 < kanzure> i also imagine it's similar to deep brain stimulation right now 10:45 < kanzure> "stick an electrode in there and fire" 10:45 < kanzure> seems to work 10:46 < kanzure> oh which reminds me, i've been meaning to convince some neuroscience people to answer me a question, 10:47 < kanzure> something on the order of, "if you had complete and total access to the brain, where would you stimulate and how much and in what patterns/dosages, and why those locations?" 10:47 < archels> just stimulate? like crude-DBS-type stimulate? 10:48 < kanzure> oh, whatever, nothing so strict 10:48 < archels> well, as opposed to a BCI that you are using for communication, I mean 10:48 < kanzure> the constraints are things like "must be something that can be done to an emulated bundle of neurons" and "ideally would be testable on mushy brains too, but no big deal if it's too impossibly hard to do that" 10:49 < archels> more in the sense of fine tuning your dopamine and serotonin levels 10:49 < kanzure> oh, hmm 10:49 < kanzure> yeah i would accept those types of answers too, but not if they are just "dopamine good! serotonin bad!" 10:51 < archels> in that sense, the main attraction for me would be to have continuous control over those types of parameters 10:51 < kanzure> the emulation having continuous control? 10:51 < archels> when I step into a car, I don't want to have hyperfocus, I want to be a little ADD to drive the safest 10:51 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:51 < archels> but when I'm coding I would probably prefer the former 10:52 < kanzure> those are a lot of variables to fiddle with in real-time 10:52 < superkuh> I'd want to simulate measurements of pH in the volume immediately around the neurons/glia to see how it changes at fine scales with action potentials. 10:53 < archels> not so much, probably 10:54 < archels> FORALL dopamine-D2 receptor IN striatum DO: 10:54 < superkuh> I think there'd be much to learn at small spatial and time scales. 10:54 < superkuh> Especially with respect to the physical phase of the bilayer lipid membrane. 10:54 < superkuh> +s 10:54 < archels> much agreed 10:54 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:59 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:00 < archels> kanzure: what sort of responses have you gotten so far? 11:00 < archels> if I understood the question better I could probably give a more meaningful answer 11:00 < kanzure> i haven't been harassing anyone about it quite yet 11:01 < kanzure> but the reason is because brain stimulation technology 11:01 < kanzure> and even if you had transcranial ultrasound or whatever, you have to know things to try 11:01 < kanzure> and i have this suspicion that others have put lots of thought into this already 11:01 < kanzure> i just haven't found it yet 11:02 < kanzure> anywho it turns out that the same question is still valid even in brain emulation scenarios, although the available toolset is way larger of course 11:07 < archels> mapping the thalamic nuclei should be interesting 11:07 < archels> instant control over aggression, sex drive, etc. 11:08 < archels> amygdalar subnuclei might prove interesting in that respect as well 11:09 < archels> err, did I say thalamic? I meant hypothalamic 11:20 < kanzure> hm 11:32 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:32 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:34 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:35 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:38 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:49 -!- augur [~augur@pool-108-3-141-170.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:50 -!- augur [~augur@pool-108-3-141-170.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:51 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:06 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:10 -!- augur [~augur@pool-108-3-141-170.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:12 < fenn> du -hs space.mike-combs.com/ 12:12 < fenn> 5.1M 12:12 < kanzure> i don't know if any of that is unique content 12:13 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:16 -!- augur [~augur@pool-108-3-141-170.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:16 -!- augur [~augur@pool-108-3-141-170.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:19 < kanzure> jrayhawk: your intuitions about sybil things looked fairly okay, and should be written down more tersely somewhere, and not in an irc log. 12:20 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:23 < fenn> nothing spells productivity like your computer turning off suddenly for no reason 12:24 < fenn> time to empty: 9.3 hours 12:26 -!- Zinglon [~Zinglon@D549A77D.cm-10-1a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The alternative IRC client] 12:32 -!- TheShadowFog [~TheShadow@2601:8:3e80:c:e47e:aa32:1b50:ef15] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:38 -!- augur [~augur@pool-108-3-141-170.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02 < fenn> "okay here's some software, but it can never be modified, and any bugs you find you're stuck with" sounds like my life 13:06 < fenn> archels: you might enjoy playing around with "Curved Spaces" the non-cartesian manifold virtual environment simulator http://geometrygames.org/CurvedSpaces/index.html.en 13:10 < fenn> unfortunately it doesn't simulate physics 13:12 < fenn> anyway, some of the simpler spaces are about as disorienting as being in a small rotating cylinder and experiencing coriolis forces 13:21 < kanzure> "The OpenWorm project (which kind of sounds like somewhat like a band of mischievous 10-year-olds with a pocketknife would call themselves, but OK)" 13:21 < kanzure> ( http://gizmodo.com/this-robot-thinks-its-a-tiny-little-worm-1660061236 ) 13:22 < kanzure> ? ""My research takes the way the worm's brain is wired and extends it to a robot for sensory input and motor output," Buspice told me. "What we found is that rather than just random, crazy movements by the robot, it actually responded to it's environment in the same manner as the biological worm."" 13:29 < archels> fenn: can't seem to get it to work right now in VM, will try on a Windows machine tomorrow 13:33 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:39 < sheena2> paperbot http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159114000264 13:39 < sheena2> hm 13:40 < sheena2> .paperbot http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159114000264 13:40 < kanzure> give him time 13:40 < kanzure> he is thinking 13:40 < sheena2> oh 13:40 < sheena2> i did it right? 13:40 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20Should%20old%20dog%20trainers%20learn%20new%20tricks%3F%20The%20efficiency%20of%20the%20Do%20as%20I%20do%20method%20and%20shaping_clicker%20training%20method%20to%20train%20dogs%0A%20.pdf 13:40 < kanzure> no access 13:41 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159114000264/pdfft?md5=22dde506ceb5ec79bd2555ef9ab95e44&pid=1-s2.0-S0168159114000264-main.pdf 13:41 < sheena2> seems not workie 13:41 < kanzure> definitely no access 13:43 < sheena2> http://www.apprendimentosociale.it/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Diapositiva1.jpg 13:43 < sheena2> summary 13:43 < sheena2> amaizng stuff 13:46 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:51 < sheena2> http://familydogproject.elte.hu/Pdf/publikaciok/2014/FugazzaM2014b.pdf in case esomeone else wants it? 14:05 < fenn> ara 14:07 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ewmbxwytlilnozip] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:14 < fenn> archels 3.2.1 works pretty well in wine; i don't remember if i ever got it to compile http://geometrygames.org/Archive/CurvedSpaces-3-2-1-Win-GL1.zip 14:16 < fenn> sheena does "dog do as monkey do" actually work in practice? 14:16 < sheena2> i have an andoid phone that crashes all the time and i hav eno idea why. anyone have thinks on this? 14:16 < sheena2> the data of that study says yes!! 14:16 < fenn> shitty software; install cyanogenmod if you can 14:17 < chris_99> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001457506001540 14:17 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20Drivers%20overtaking%20bicyclists%3A%20Objective%20data%20on%20the%20effects%20of%20riding%20position%2C%20helmet%20use%2C%20vehicle%20type%20and%20apparent%20gender%0A%20.pdf 14:17 < fenn> these links all look wrong 14:17 < chris_99> muchos gracias 14:18 < sheena2> i have cyanogenmod installed 14:18 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:19 < chris_99> hmm that link didn't seem to work, unless i've done something wrong 14:19 < fenn> when it starts with %0A it's an html file 14:19 < chris_99> ah yeah it is 14:20 < fenn> sheena why did it take so long to discover this training method? 14:23 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:23 < sheena2> its complicated 14:23 < sheena2> dog people are idiots 14:23 < sheena2> there hasnt bene funding in it 14:24 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:24 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:24 < fenn> but there are lots of military animals, you'd think someone would be doing research on animal training 14:25 < sheena2> i know, right 14:25 < sheena2> its a weird thing 14:25 < sheena2> there was some back in the 60s? 14:25 < sheena2> mostly clasified and lost in a fire 14:25 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:25 < fenn> aliens 14:25 < fenn> didn't want us to discover the secret of dolphins 14:25 < sheena2> indeed 14:26 < sheena2> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/289035/receiving-data-over-a-python-socket anyone have an already-written thing that would do "If data doesnt come through, display error message but keep listening for the next one" ? 14:26 < kanzure> you're looking for something called a timeout 14:26 < sheena2> ... i dunno 14:26 < sheena2> cause i dont want it to go away? 14:27 < fenn> usually number and length of timeouts is configurable 14:27 < kanzure> fenn: start reading around 1943 i guess http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/orca-2014/bailey/ 14:28 < fenn> ok but pigeons are not dogs 14:28 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:28 < kanzure> i meant the dolphin secrets and stuff 14:28 < fenn> who really thinks pigeons and dogs should be trained the same way? 14:29 < kanzure> and classified military stuff 14:29 < chris_99> didn't they train dolphins which promptly swap away 14:29 < chris_99> *swam 14:29 < fenn> often adolescent male dolphins would go carousing and slack off, yeah 14:29 < fenn> but wouldn't you? 14:30 < sheena2> bob had pretty good luck with his dolphn trainings 14:30 < chris_99> who was that dude that thought he could talk to dolphins who took far too much lsd 14:30 < chris_99> oh john c. lilly 14:30 < kanzure> that might have been the goatse tribute page 14:31 < fenn> well he probably _could_ talk to dolphins 14:31 < kanzure> yes but a one word vocab is boring 14:32 < fenn> moar fish *chirp chirp click clask* 14:33 < kanzure> ah yes, the pidgeotto of the sea 14:33 < fenn> that's racist! 14:33 < fenn> (i have no idea what you're talking about, but it must be racist because dolphins) 14:34 < kanzure> https://38.media.tumblr.com/8843756eb33c7cd90abab5a6232e9eff/tumblr_nel6i309TR1sz6rl2o1_500.jpg 14:34 < fenn> "Pidgeotto is a raptor-like avian Pokémon." okay 14:35 < kanzure> .gi ancalagon minor 14:36 < kanzure> hmph 14:36 < fenn> .g i ancalagon minor 14:36 < yoleaux> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancalagon_(genus) 14:36 < kanzure> no i wanted gi 14:37 < fenn> The generic name is a homage to the dragon Ancalagon, who is featured in J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth legendarium, in reference to the worm's prominent rows of hooks on its proboscis. The species was previously referred to as a member of the genus Ottoia, 14:37 < kanzure> h right they can just label an actual image http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Corynosoma_drawing.jpg 14:37 < kanzure> *oh right 14:37 < fenn> there was some ridiculous movie in the 1990s about a cruise ship that is hijacked by pirates, but then they all get eaten by giant ottoia 14:37 < sheena2> i have no idea whats going on anymore 14:37 < kanzure> worms 14:38 < kanzure> well, first ebola 14:38 < kanzure> and before that, pokemon 14:38 < sheena2> so i set a timeout 14:38 < sheena2> and it is not owrking as expected 14:39 < sheena2> i mean 14:39 < sheena2> at all, i guess? 14:39 < sheena2> so wahtever triggers timeout isnt happening 14:39 < sheena2> i guess? 14:39 < kanzure> i suggest using gevent + socket stuff (gevent has a socket submodule) 14:39 < kanzure> and then you can use gevent.sleep(n) before printing a warning and stuff 14:39 < kanzure> here is a very elaborate example of me using gevent + sockets in python, https://gist.github.com/kanzure/ee33ad55a98ad45283d3 14:40 < sheena2> i susepct that's more than i need 14:40 < sheena2> i will go back to the google if no one has a prepared idea 14:41 < kanzure> take a look at https://gist.github.com/kanzure/ee33ad55a98ad45283d3#file-stratumproxy-py-L445 14:41 < kanzure> newsock = gevent.socket.socket() 14:41 < kanzure> newsock.bind(("0.0.0.0", 0)); newsock.listen(0); 14:41 < kanzure> followed by: newserver = gevent.server.StreamServer(newsock, functools.partial(self.server.handle_other_connection, data)) 14:41 < kanzure> and finally: newserver.start() 14:41 < kanzure> anyway, "self.server.handle_other_connection," is the part where you do your while loop waiting for stuff (but you must use gevent.sleep and not the normal sleep) 14:42 < sheena2> s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_DGRAM) 14:42 < sheena2> do i use 's' 14:42 < sheena2> somewhere? 14:42 < sheena2> or just socket? 14:42 < sheena2> i dont really know what "s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_DGRAM)" has done to the socket commnads 14:43 < kanzure> if you were to switch to using gevent then you would use "gevent.socket.socket" instead of "socket.socket" 14:43 < kanzure> .py import socket; print socket.socket.__doc__ 14:43 < yoleaux> socket([family[, type[, proto]]]) -> socket object 14:43 < fenn> well that's enlightening~ 14:44 < kanzure> it clearly says socket object, what more do you want.. 14:44 < fenn> you mean socket.socket() is a socket object? wow 14:44 < kanzure> no, the function's docstring says it returns a socket object 14:45 * fenn goes back to dolphins 14:46 < sheena2> :( i have no idea 14:46 < kanzure> what is your question? 14:48 < kanzure> i don't know what sort of concurrency you've chosen to use in your program, 14:48 < kanzure> but i've proposed using gevent and StreamServer which will let you do things like timeouts and other tasks 14:50 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:50 < sheena2> ok 14:52 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:52 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:52 < chris_99> fenn - they made a telephone for the dolphins to talk to each other in different tanks http://67.55.50.201/lilly/dolphinMind03.html 14:55 < fenn> i like the idea of a dolphin virtual reality where it simulates sonar reflections etc 14:55 < fenn> also they could remotely operate deep sea robots 14:56 < chris_99> the dolpins? 14:56 < fenn> yeah 14:56 < fenn> there are a lot of locations where the water is super cloudy and humans have a hard time understanding what's going on 14:57 < fenn> that's probably the humans' fault for writing bad software tho 14:58 < fenn> today i saw an ad in defense news touting some military contractor's "situational awareness" leadership; the example was a monitor in a helicopter cockpit with a map of the world 14:59 < fenn> like, what situation exactly needs a map of the entire world? 14:59 < chris_99> heh 14:59 < fenn> and the guy was poking at it with a pen-shaped stylus 15:01 < kanzure> i'm sure the hardware developers konw the precise "situational awareness" map to include, no way they need to support any possible location 15:02 < fenn> if i was driving around in a warzone, i'd want a 360 degree heads-up display with unit locations superimposed on sensor readings of my current environment 15:03 < fenn> a monitor with maps on it just seems wrong 15:04 < fenn> "hold on, what grid are we in? *traces finger along x axis, then y axis* ok here weare *blam you are dead* 15:04 < chris_99> or just send a drone into a warzone, then use a VR helmet 15:09 < kanzure> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/adfm.201400596/abstract;jsessionid=7F3067CC665BE0E2E49CFFD6E4F4CAEB.f03t03 15:09 < kanzure> .title 15:09 < yoleaux> Superparamagnetic Twist-Type Actuators with Shape-Independent Magnetic Properties and Surface Functionalization for Advanced Biomedical Applications - Peters - 2014 - Advanced Functional Materials - Wiley Online Library 15:11 < fenn> can they square dance 15:12 < chris_99> anyone heard of a magnetic flow meter per chance, i'm wondering about DIYing one, as they seem ridiculously expensive 15:12 < fenn> nope, how does it work? 15:13 < fenn> is it just like a clamp multimeter? 15:13 < chris_99> it requires a liquid that has ions in, and the ions affect the magnetic field you apply to the pipe, and you detect a potential difference, which relates to the flow 15:14 < fenn> seems like the difficulty would be isolating galvanic voltages from flow-induced voltages 15:14 < chris_99> ? don't get you, you have a sensor that picks up the magnetic field 15:14 < fenn> "To mitigate this, the magnetic field is constantly reversed, cancelling out the static potential difference." 15:15 < fenn> the sensor picks up the voltage induced by the flow of the ions 15:15 < chris_99> oh yeah i saw that 15:15 < chris_99> but i don't get it 15:15 < chris_99> as the electrode isn't actually touching the ions? 15:15 < chris_99> *sensor 15:16 < chris_99> (i'm thinking of a plastic pipe) 15:20 < fenn> it seems that your electrodes have to actually touch the fluid 15:20 < chris_99> are you sure about that? 15:20 < fenn> no 15:20 < delinquentme> https://www.electroimpact.com/Products/Fastening/XAC/ARJ21.aspx 15:21 < delinquentme> FYI my birthday is nov 25 15:21 < delinquentme> im gonna be 30 15:21 < chris_99> "A typical magnetic flowmeter places electric coils around (inline model) / near (insertion model) the pipe of the flow to be measured and sets up a pair of electrodes across the pipe wall (inline model) or at the tip of the flowmeter (insertion model)." 15:21 < delinquentme> I'm down for someone buying me a big toy kanzure nmz787 ParahSailin_ fenn chris_99 15:21 < fenn> sure delinquentme i'll throw in a gundam while i'm at it 15:22 < fenn> let me ring up my buddies at L5 15:22 < delinquentme> fenn, @_@ BEST. DAY. EVER. 15:22 < sheena2> https://plus.google.com/photos/104083481059977229611/albums/6083181718122306273 four bucks a shirt 15:23 < fenn> chris_99: "inline" and "insertion" would be two completely different physical mechanisms 15:23 < chris_99> indeed 15:23 < fenn> one is induction, the other is ... lorentz force? 15:24 < fenn> or whatever the inverse of lorentz force is 15:24 < chris_99> i was thinking of using a hall effect sensor 15:25 < fenn> i don't think it would be sensitive enough, unless you had really high flow rates 15:25 -!- bkero [~bkero@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 15:25 < fenn> how many ions are in a gallon of tap water 15:25 -!- bkero [~bkero@216.151.13.66] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:26 < chris_99> it sounds like the electrodes don't touch 15:26 -!- bkero [~bkero@216.151.13.66] has quit [Changing host] 15:26 -!- bkero [~bkero@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:26 < chris_99> the liquid 15:26 < chris_99> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f949gpKdCI4 15:27 < kanzure> delinquentme: happy bday. i'm 25 on jan4. 15:28 < delinquentme> kanzure, idk maybe we should all get drunk and google hangout 15:28 < delinquentme> i could do that hahah 15:28 < delinquentme> jumping screaming and nerding out 15:29 < delinquentme> I mean its basically what I do at all times ... but with more booze 15:29 < delinquentme> fenn, so not to nitpick but I'd really prefer eva unit 01 15:29 < delinquentme> if its not too much trouble 15:32 -!- sheena2 [~home@d162-156-158-13.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33 < fenn> chris_99: if the electrodes don't touch then you should be able to just hold two multimeter probes on either side of a hose with some magnets stuck to it 15:34 < fenn> it seems to me they would need to touch the liquid unless you have a super duper thin wall tube and/or a very high impedance amplifier 15:34 -!- sheena [~home@d162-156-158-13.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:36 < fenn> the plastic sleeve is to keep from shorting out the potential formed by the ions flowing through the magnet 15:37 < fenn> it's not to protect the electrodes from the liquid 15:37 < chris_99> actually re-listening to the vid, i think it's just to protect the electrode short circuiting to the metal pipe 15:37 < fenn> if you had a plastic pipe you wouldn't need a sleeve 15:37 < chris_99> so maybe it doe need to touch the liquid, i dunno 15:38 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-90-152-247.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38 < fenn> if it were just to insulate the electrode from the pipe, they'd just put a collar around the electrode 15:38 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-162-162-140.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:38 < fenn> do you understand the concept of amplifier impedance? 15:39 < fenn> like a microphone input has a higher impedance than a line-in 15:40 < chris_99> yeah 15:41 < fenn> so consider the liquid the signal source you're measuring, a voltage (alternating apparently) and in series with it is the resistance of a plastic pipe 15:41 < fenn> the pipe is some number of megaohms 15:42 < fenn> with a sufficiently high impedance amp input, you can get a signal out of it, but you'd have better noise rejection without a huge resistor in the way 15:43 < fenn> did that make sense? 15:45 < chris_99> yeah, the plastic would affect the magnetic field strength picked up at the electrodes 15:45 < fenn> the electrodes are measuring voltage, not magnetic field strength 15:47 < chris_99> ok yeah, induced voltage 15:47 < fenn> you could get a better result with larger electrodes, for more capacitive coupling 15:47 < fenn> like aluminum foil tape stuck to the sides of the pipe 15:50 < nmz787_i> chris_99: these may help you if you need it, with amplifier and impedance stuff http://www.eevblog.com/files/uCurrentArticle.pdf (the next is a 3-part series) http://www.edn.com/design/analog/4368681/Design-femtoampere-circuits-with-low-leakage-part-one 15:50 < chris_99> ah cheers 15:50 < nmz787_i> the series told me things like how a plastic package can actually be less noisy than a ceramic one 15:50 < nmz787_i> because ceramic is piezoelectric 15:50 < chris_99> ah interesting 15:51 < nmz787_i> I have referred to the first part of this sentence several times since I found and initially read that article: 15:51 < nmz787_i> "To put things into perspective, 1A equals 6,241,500,000,000,000,000, or 6.2418 electrons/sec; 1 pA, or 1-12A, equals 6.24 million electrons/sec; and 1 fA equals 1-15A, or 6240 electrons/sec. In the subpicoamp world, there are three common enemies: current leakages, noise sources, and stray capacitance." 15:52 < nmz787_i> also there is some way to relate that to a mole (the unit) 15:52 < chris_99> heh interesting 15:52 < chris_99> didn't know that you could do that 15:52 < nmz787_i> " One faraday of charge is the magnitude of the charge of one mole of electrons, i.e. 96485.3365(21) C" 15:52 < fenn> .wa coulomb in moles 15:52 < yoleaux> convert 1 C (coulomb) to moles: C (coulombs) and mol (moles) are not compatible.; Unit information: unit: dimensions: common physical quantity C (coulombs): [current] [time]: electric charge mol (moles): [amount]: amount 15:53 < fenn> pff 15:53 < fenn> no botsnack for you 15:53 < nmz787_i> knowing those things relate before taking chemistry would probably have been nice 15:54 < fenn> surprise electricity is matter 15:55 < nmz787_i> so basically if your signal is only 10 electrons, your amplifier better only need to suck of a few of those 10, else you'll have none left for the circuit's normal operation (at least in terms of probing signals during debug) 15:56 < fenn> what really blew my mind was the mass detector; crossed laser interferometers to detect the gravitational distortion caused by everyday objects 15:56 < nmz787_i> and the impedance is basically the resistance except in terms of AC... and V=IR, so knowing the voltage and the resistance let's you know how much electrons your probe is going to sip away 15:56 < nmz787_i> .wik mass detector 15:57 < yoleaux> "Mass spectrometry (MS) is an analytical chemistry technique that helps identify the amount and type of chemicals present in a sample by measuring the mass-to-charge ratio and abundance of gas-phase ions." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_spectrometry 15:57 < nmz787_i> :/ 15:57 < nmz787_i> not lasers 15:58 < fenn> bah i wonder if it's been classified 15:58 < nmz787_i> .wik Gravitational-wave observatory 15:58 < yoleaux> "A gravitational-wave observatory (or gravitational-wave detector) is any device designed to measure gravitational waves, tiny distortions of spacetime that were first predicted by Einstein in 1916. Gravitational waves are perturbations in the curvature of spacetime caused by accelerated masses." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational-wave_observatory 15:58 < nmz787_i> maybe that? 15:58 < chris_99> hmm there is also this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force_velocimetry 15:59 < nmz787_i> features "A schematic diagram of a laser interferometer." 15:59 < chris_99> on the topic of laser interferometers, have you heard of the holometer 15:59 < fenn> it's related to the ligo observatory, but ligo is a) huge and b) not rotating 15:59 < nmz787_i> ttyl 16:00 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-txqjumyasichvstb] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:04 < chris_99> hmm it looks like lorentz force velocimetry is the non-contact version, but that looks very difficult 16:04 < fenn> Forward's extensive work in the field of gravitational radiation detection included the invention of the rotating cruciform gravity gradiometer or 'Forward Mass Detector', for Lunar Mascon (mass concentration) measurements. In the well-known textbook Gravitation Misner, Wheeler & Thorne point out that it can detect the curvature of spacetime produced by a fist. The principle behind it is quite 16:04 < fenn> simple; getting the implementation right is tricky. Essentially, two beams are crossed over and connected with an axle through their crossing point. They are held at right angles to each other by springs. They have heavy masses at the ends of the beams, and the whole assembly spun around the common axle at high speed. The angle between the beams is measured continuously, and if it varies with a 16:05 < fenn> period half that of the rotation period, it means that the detector is experiencing a measurable gravitational field gradient. 16:05 < fenn> at hughes aircraft company forward had gained a lot of experience damping stray vibrations with piezoelectrics; presumably he applied this knowledge toward the frame of his mass detetor 16:07 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ewmbxwytlilnozip] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 16:07 < chris_99> in case you haven't seen this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holometer 16:08 < fenn> i don't understand this graph at all 16:10 < fenn> "It would be the first proof that space-time, the fabric of the universe, is quantized." 16:13 < kanzure> forward sure knew how to put his name on everything 16:14 < chris_99> heh 16:14 < fenn> what, like his kid? 16:15 < kanzure> he named his kid forward forward? 16:15 < fenn> i dont see any other inventions with his name attached 16:15 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:8d17:822f:cc3:8811] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:15 < kanzure> wasn't there an entire forward drive and a forward fort or something 16:16 < kanzure> "The Forward drive violates Newton's Third Law of Motion" 16:16 < fenn> his son is Robert D. Forward 16:16 < kanzure> well that's fucked up 16:16 < fenn> oh he wrote a SF book with a silly physics device so he could do stuff with time travel 16:16 < fenn> negative mass 16:17 < kanzure> he goes by "bob forward" apparently and does not do speculative physics 16:17 < fenn> yeah a writer for He-man and Beast Wars 16:17 < kanzure> hmm he wrote for "x-men: evolution" too 16:18 < kanzure> this almost makes up for the namespace corruption 16:18 < kanzure> but it doesn't. 16:20 < fenn> i bought copies of every one of his books to scan and ocr, but never got around to it 16:21 < Qfwfq> Mozilla/EFF-propose standard procedure for domain verification and certificate issuance: https://github.com/letsencrypt/acme-spec/blob/master/draft-barnes-acme.md 16:23 < fenn> wut. that's still an unresolved problem? 16:24 < Qfwfq> Only in that there's no standardisation. 16:24 < fenn> the whole idea of a certificate authority is pretty lame 16:25 < fenn> why yes, government of Egypt, please, come into my browser and silently accept certificates from unknown corrupting influences 16:28 < Qfwfq> The Web of Trust makes adoption socially awkward. 16:30 < Qfwfq> Centralised PKI is better interface design if nothing else. 16:30 < Qfwfq> Though it's refreshing to pare down /etc/ssl/certs every now and then. 16:31 < fenn> until it fails silently and becomes insecure without the user's knowledge 16:31 < fenn> trying to find the article about bad root certs shipped with firefox by default 16:32 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:32 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:33 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oqzykjyuympjwdiz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:42 < kanzure> who needs search results when you have revisionist history to rely on 16:44 < fenn> who's revising history? 16:48 < fenn> "As we learned from the SSL Observatory project, there are 600+ Certificate Authorities that your browser will trust; the attacker only needs to find one of those 600 that she is capable of breaking into. This has been happening with catastrophic results." 16:49 < kanzure> the people making it harder for you to find articles 16:50 < fenn> uh, paranoid duck is paranoid 16:51 < fenn> the problem is there are so many SSL shitstorms that i can't find the particular one i was remembering 16:52 < fenn> it was something about firefox trusting the CA's shipped with windows, which turned out to have lots of corrupt governments 16:52 -!- Vutral [rBFQr7hJoN@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:53 < fenn> this iran-comodo thing is obscuring that story though 16:53 < fenn> https://www.eff.org/files/countries-with-cas.txt 16:57 < fenn> this is kinda in the same vein http://files.cloudprivacy.net/ssl-mitm.pdf 16:58 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:10 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:17 -!- jim_ [~jim@23-118-32-116.lightspeed.moblal.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:18 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:23 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:25 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:39 < kanzure> hmm 17:46 < heath> what's up? 17:48 < fenn> an argument i haven't heard before: "I work in an environment with very limited bandwidth (1.8Mbps private satellite link servicing ~80 people). SSL by default is the bane of my existence. Right now, I've got Cisco WAAS deployed, and it adds about another 30% of effective capacity to my link, and often more. If everything goes encrypted by default, then I lose all of that. I get no caching gain, 17:48 < fenn> no compression gain, nothing, unless I MITM the link" 17:52 < kanzure> he should probably mitm it remotely on something he controls 17:53 < kanzure> since he's clearly okay with trusting his er, provider or whatever it is 17:54 < fenn> you wouldn't be able to re-encrypt it locally since you don't have the private keys.. 17:54 < kanzure> http://mitmproxy.org/ 17:54 < fenn> actually i don't know what i am talking about, forget i said anything 17:55 < kanzure> you should play with mitmproxy 17:55 < fenn> do i have to 17:55 < kanzure> well, it's exactly what it says it is, so you can just look at the screenshot and then nod gravely for a few moments 17:56 < fenn> ah, so. 17:56 < fenn> very interesting 17:56 < kanzure> perfect 17:56 * fenn nods gravely 17:56 < kanzure> ( http://mitmproxy.org/images/mitmproxy.png ) 17:57 < fenn> i could do without the unicode arrows 17:57 < kanzure> libmproxy is the guiless version 17:57 < kanzure> less might count as a gui so i don't mean less 17:57 < fenn> which less 17:58 < kanzure> /usr/bin/less 18:02 < fenn> mitmproxy could be useful for testing things that interact with the net 18:04 -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:07 < kanzure> i use it mostly for reverse engineering reasons 18:07 < kanzure> but here are some other clever things: 18:07 < kanzure> https://github.com/Runscope/requestbin 18:07 < kanzure> https://github.com/kennethreitz/httpbin 18:08 < kanzure> https://github.com/sigmavirus24/betamax 18:08 < kanzure> https://github.com/gabrielfalcao/HTTPretty 18:08 < fenn> gah 18:08 < fenn> EBUFSPACE 18:09 < kanzure> yep my linkdumps are back in style 18:09 < kanzure> paul fernhout ain't got shit on me now 18:10 < fenn> these people suck at writing readmes 18:11 < fenn> the point is "it tells you what you said"? 18:12 < kanzure> your readme sucks because: 18:12 < kanzure> [ ] it conflicts with my coloring scheme 18:12 < fenn> [x] it doesn't tell me what the software is intended to do 18:12 < kanzure> are you asking about the mocking libraries there? 18:12 < kanzure> http requests aren't the only thing in your code 18:13 < kanzure> often there are things that happen after the http responses 18:13 < kanzure> so those things need to be tested in isolation of network status 18:13 < kanzure> and remote server status 18:13 < fenn> if i didn't know what postbin was, the descriptions would be worthless 18:14 -!- jim_ [~jim@23-118-32-116.lightspeed.moblal.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:14 < fenn> but they run on heroku 18:14 < fenn> are you supposed to do your testing on heroku? 18:14 < kanzure> nah 18:14 < kanzure> kennethreitz runs a public httpbin instance on http://httpbin.org/ which runs on heroku, true 18:14 < fenn> then what does "in isolation of network status" have to do with anything 18:14 < kanzure> but you could just run it locally if you really cared that much 18:15 < kanzure> httpbin/requestbin are both useful for things like "i wrote all this code and i think my http request might be wrong, so let me just change the destination to this random testing service i know about" 18:15 < fenn> ok let's just limit discussion to httpbin for sake of clarity 18:15 < kanzure> or, in the case of requestbin, "let me show my colleague these request-response pairs" (since httpbin doesn't have persistence or link sharing stuff) 18:16 < kanzure> yeah i was talking about the other ones, not httpbin, in the case of the quote talking about network status 18:16 < fenn> but you could run httpbin locally 18:16 < kanzure> httpbin is useful for the scenario of "damn, i have no idea what my software is actually sending, but i am too lazy to break out wireshark or tcpdump, and those tools probably wont show me what an http server on the other end might see anyway" 18:17 < kanzure> yeah 18:17 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:19 < kanzure> in some situations my http requests have been modified by some part of the software stack that i wasn't working with 18:19 < kanzure> like switching around the order of headers 18:20 < kanzure> (which play.google.com cares deeply about, for some reason) 18:20 < fenn> google does lots of weird stuff with http 18:20 < fenn> like SPDY for instance 18:21 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22 < fenn> if you're faking a user agent, it might be expecting this "multiplexed" request 18:23 < kanzure> i was comparing against mitmproxied requests/responses that i had seen from wiring up multiple different android phones and emulated android phones 18:24 < kanzure> and decompiling from their dalvik bytecode to protobufs https://github.com/kanzure/googleplay-api/blob/master/googleplay.proto 18:26 < fenn> is it just me or is that a primitive grammar specification 18:27 < fenn> a very verbose EBNF 18:27 < kanzure> https://github.com/google/protobuf 18:28 < fenn> another readme that doesn't explain what the software does 18:29 < fenn> just because it's targeted at a technical user doesn't mean you don't have to explain it 18:30 < kanzure> submit a pull request and make thousands of google developers happy 18:30 < fenn> i'll just copy and paste this https://developers.google.com/protocol-buffers/docs/overview 18:33 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:34 < fenn> "textual representation of a protocol buffer" looks suspiciously like YAML 18:54 < kanzure> hrm. 18:54 < kanzure> yaml is too verbose for google's purposes 18:54 < kanzure> they needed a byte-level protocol 18:54 < fenn> i know 18:54 < fenn> yaml is a good human readable computer readable format 18:54 < ebowden> Kanzure, I just read an article that used Infowars as a citation. 18:55 < fenn> protobufs dont need to be human readable (and aren't) 18:55 < fenn> however if you want to look at a protobuf, it would be convenient if it spat out pretty yaml 18:55 < ebowden> It's basically like saying "Well, retards believe...." to back up your point. 18:56 < kanzure> why are you telling me about infowars 18:56 < fenn> ebowden: try rebutting with a citation from 4chan 18:56 < ebowden> fenn, LOL 18:57 < ebowden> Just venting my anger at a very, very stupid article. 18:58 < fenn> was it http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141111/ncomms6392/full/ncomms6392.html 18:58 < kanzure> .title 18:58 < yoleaux> Mind-controlled transgene expression by a wireless-powered optogenetic designer cell implant : Nature Communications : Nature Publishing Group 18:59 < ebowden> Fenn, no. 18:59 < ebowden> Also, I've not heard of anything published in Nature citing Infowars. 19:01 < fenn> kanzure did you (or your lackey) manually label all the fields in this googleplay.proto file? 19:01 < ebowden> Also, if you're feeling really masochistic try reading the comments. 19:02 < fenn> i'm not a masochist 19:02 < fenn> i'm whatever the opposite is 19:02 < kanzure> no i did not manually label those 19:02 < kanzure> there was this tool i found deep in the java world that decompiled dalvik bytecode and extracted protobufs 19:04 < ebowden> Fenn, this was it: http://sputniknews.com/voiceofrussia/2014_02_04/Human-animal-hybrids-disasters-in-the-making-2059/ 19:04 < fenn> is google still anti-documented-APIs? 19:04 < kanzure> google has some automatic api documentation stuff happening now, maybe 19:05 < fenn> forcing people to reverse engineer your protocol just seems stupid 19:05 < kanzure> they didn't want people to steal their android apps 19:05 < fenn> oh noes 19:05 < kanzure> these were private systems 19:05 < kanzure> "private" 19:05 < kanzure> i mean, public private 19:05 < kanzure> i mean, public but they call it private because they are clueless 19:05 < fenn> maybe they should read about how DRM doesn't work 19:06 < fenn> "Nowadays, it is possible for a couple of university-age students to concoct new life forms in the comfort of their own basement." horrors! 19:07 < fenn> somebody get those kids a condom 19:08 < fenn> why is this called "voice of russia"? i thought the russians were all about mad science 19:11 < kanzure> er, condoms might be one of those things they don't think exist 19:11 < fenn> is that unorthodox orthodoxy 19:12 < kanzure> oh my bad, that's only cripples or something 19:12 < kanzure> i'm so confused 19:12 < kanzure> "is not a cripple, is great shame on society" 19:13 < fenn> is this like free-books.dontexist 19:13 < fenn> cripples.dontexist 19:14 < kanzure> http://www.publichealthreviews.eu/upload/pdf_files/12/00_Petrea.pdf 19:15 < fenn> no surprises there 19:17 < fenn> "There are no invalids in the USSR!" because communism is jesus reincarnate 19:18 < kanzure> soviet patent system is best patent system 19:18 < fenn> internats: social asylums outside the jurisdiction of the health sector 19:18 < fenn> PROOF that SOVIET RUSSIA INVENTED THE INTERNATS 19:19 < fenn> take that al gore! 19:27 < fenn> .title http://www.technologyreview.com/news/532126/software-designs-products-by-simulating-evolution/ 19:27 < yoleaux> 3-D Design Software “Evolves” Hundreds of Options | MIT Technology Review 19:29 < fenn> "Dreamcatcher interprets design intent from the objectives specified by the designer and uses the cloud to create thousands of valid design options that meet the designer’s criteria, recommending the best-performing versions for further consideration. It’s not so much about developing a solution as it is about searching for and finding one." 19:30 < kanzure> "hundreds" 19:30 < fenn> however many you want to pay for 19:31 < fenn> this sounds a lot like what i was writing about in "how to build a cad system" 2007 ish 19:31 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/cadwiki.mediawiki 19:32 < fenn> says they've been working on it for 7 years... 19:37 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:40 -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:17 < kanzure> hm. 20:27 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oqzykjyuympjwdiz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20:34 < heath> two hms in 3 hours 20:40 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:40 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:43 < kanzure> confusion growing exponentially 20:43 < jrayhawk> confusularity 20:43 < kanzure> only made 72 commits today? 20:43 < kanzure> something's wrong 20:44 < kanzure> ERROR: LoadBlockIndex() : failed to initialize block database: boost::filesystem::space: No such file or directory 20:44 < kanzure> : Error initializing block database. 20:45 < kanzure> Do you want to rebuild the block database now? 20:45 < kanzure> why is it asking me? 20:45 < kanzure> : Error initializing block database. 20:45 < jrayhawk> you deleted the bitcoin blockchain? what a jerk 20:45 < jrayhawk> people were depending on that! 20:46 < kanzure> nah, regtest mode 20:51 < ebowden> http://biofrontiers.colorado.edu/news/new-technology-new-understanding-of-p53-the-tumor-suppressor-gene 20:52 < kanzure> oh look more press releases 20:52 < kanzure> :V 21:01 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@c-50-137-46-240.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:01 < kanzure> yo gene_hacker 21:02 < gene_hacker> yo 21:02 < kanzure> some space colonization site that will be going offline soon http://space.mike-combs.com/ 21:32 -!- TheShadowFog [~TheShadow@2601:8:3e80:c:e47e:aa32:1b50:ef15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:35 -!- Vutral [rBFQr7hJoN@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:51 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:17 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:20 -!- Boscop [~me@unaffiliated/boscop] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:32 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:8d17:822f:cc3:8811] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:43 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:50 < delinquentme> google cloud is now behaving. 22:50 < delinquentme> YES. 22:50 < delinquentme> Exactly as expected. 22:50 < delinquentme> FUCK YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE 22:51 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:05 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:36 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hslpdzkhgislbkhz] has joined ##hplusroadmap --- Log closed Wed Nov 19 00:00:55 2014