--- Log opened Wed Nov 19 00:00:55 2014
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03:05 < archels>  The Oxbridge Biotech Roundtable (OBR) and SR One, the venture capital arm of GlaxoSmithKline, have teamed up again for the OneStart competition - the largest life sciences / health care accelerator programme in the world - to offer young innovators from all disciplines the chance to win £100k (€125k) with free lab space near London, and ongoing legal and business advice from our sponsors to transform their ideas into a successful business.
03:06 < archels> (deadline Dec 1st)
03:54 < kanzure> hrm.
03:55 < kanzure> "the chance to win"
03:55 < kanzure> that's a weird way to offer venture capital
04:09 < kanzure> dingo_: see pm
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04:17 < kanzure> yo eudoxia
04:18 < eudoxia> hey kanzure
04:31 < kanzure> what is up
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04:33 < eudoxia> not much, i've been studying for college and that's pretty much it
04:34 < eudoxia> what have you been up to?
04:35 < kanzure> fielding requests for intros to that talent agency, trying to explain why i can't intro everyone simultaneously -_-
04:35 < kanzure> this is a full time job itself
04:35 < eudoxia> is that agency's name pronounced 'ten x' or 'ten times'
04:38 < kanzure> "ten x"
04:47 < kanzure> you should skip college
04:49 < eudoxia> haha i probably should
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04:54 < NilsHitze> jo
04:54 < kanzure> hi
04:54 < NilsHitze> how're things?
04:54 < kanzure> pretty great
04:57 < NilsHitze> what are you up to these days?
05:00 < kanzure> bitcoin things
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05:12 < NilsHitze> mh - not nano stuff?
05:12 < NilsHitze> implementing a strong AI into BTC? :)
05:13  * eudoxia is supposed to be rewriting nanoengineer
05:31 < kanzure> aauuuughhh kernel panic
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07:40 < fenn> oh he is here too
07:45 < NilsHitze> who
07:47 < fenn> someone who is all about "compliance, quality, and learning"
07:50 < fenn> just another lurker i guess
07:51 < fenn> in other news, this is probably the most depressing thing i've read lately: http://www.city-journal.org/html/9_2_oh_to_be.html
07:51 < fenn> .title
07:51 < yoleaux> What is Poverty? by Theodore Dalrymple, City Journal Spring 1999
07:54 < fenn> "They eat alone, even if other members of the household are present, and never at table; they slump on a sofa in front of the television. Everyone in the household eats according to his own whim and timetable. ... English meals are thus solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."
07:55 < kanzure> "Fully Secure Functional Encryption without Obfuscation" http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/666.pdf
07:56 < fenn> the signature of the beast
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07:56 < Qfwfq> 0x29A
07:56 < kanzure> "Efficient Generic Zero-Knowledge Proofs from Commitments" http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/934.pdf
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07:57 < kanzure> ooh "HaTCh: Hardware Trojan Catcher" http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/943.pdf
07:59 < fenn> are you just pasting links from a mailing list?
08:00 < kanzure> i was reading last 7 days of http://eprint.iacr.org/eprint-bin/search.pl?last=7&title=1
08:02 < fenn> why isn't there a "school of applied cryptology"
08:03 < kanzure> like https://crypto101.github.io/ ?
08:03 < fenn> all these people writing math papers and meanwhile the whole fucking internet is broken
08:03 < fenn> broken by design
08:03 < kanzure> https://9d0df72831e4b345bb93-4b37fd03e6af34f2323bb971f72f0c0d.ssl.cf5.rackcdn.com/Crypto101.pdf
08:04 < NilsHitze> later
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08:06 < fenn> ugh i "upgraded" my comcast modem last night and now i'm down to 14kB/s download
08:07 < kanzure> do you have the old firmware?
08:07 < fenn> it's new hardware
08:08 < fenn> rackcdn.com wouldn't be that slow would it?
08:09 < kanzure> dunno
08:10 < fenn> crypto101 looks like a decent book
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08:15 < paperlooker> paperbot: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/11/13/1400229111.full.pdf
08:17 < kanzure> "malware and its underground economy" https://www.coursera.org/course/malsoftware
08:19 < Qfwfq> paperlooker: Let me know if you get hold of that paper?
08:21 < paperlooker> Qfwfq: will do
08:21 < Qfwfq> Thanks.
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08:28 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/femtorisks.pdf  whatever that means
08:29 < kanzure> "actors existing beneath the level of formal institutions"
08:29 < kanzure> "aggressive financial innovators"
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08:29 < kanzure> ", terrorists"
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08:30 < fenn> terrists
08:30 < fenn> trsts
08:31 < fenn> i wish they would choose their units based on some measurable aspect of reality
08:32 < fenn> "'femto' here does not mean literally something 15 orers of magnitude smaller than the macro scale..."
08:32 < fenn> it just means "too small for us to bother thinking about what to call it"
08:33 < fenn> also this is stupid because governments are made up of individual actors too
08:33 < kanzure> of course it's stupid
08:33 < kanzure> what were you hoping for
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08:34 < fenn> something to justify having wasted 10 minutes on this paper
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08:35 < kanzure> sunk cost.
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09:22 < heath> governance through the blockchain
09:22 < heath> links to a discussion on this?
09:22 < heath> ~550k businesses created each month
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09:23 < heath> i'm guessing those figures are specific to the US
09:25 < heath> for governance, the only thing that comes to mind is generating stock and disbursing it
09:25 < fenn> please explain your idea in more detail
09:27 < heath> fenn: similar or exactly what medici will be doing, generate assets using counterparty and allow them to passed around
09:27 < heath> to +be
09:30 < heath> i was talking with otonomos and they are looking for a mvp
09:30 < kanzure> what does that have to do with governance
09:31 < heath> their tagline is "Online company formation and distributed governance through smart shares"
09:32 < heath> are you asking how is shares in a company related to governance?
09:32 < fenn> yes
09:32 < heath> not a clue
09:32 < kanzure> http://esharesinc.com/
09:32 < kanzure> shares are related to governance, but not a blockchain
09:32 < kanzure> i mean, governance is related to shares, but not a blockchain
09:33 < kanzure> you really have to watch out for people that are haplessly throwing blockchain concepts around:
09:33 < kanzure> http://cointelegraph.com/news/112725/bitnation-core-dev-team-resigns-speaks-out-before-crowdsale
09:33 < heath> it's related in the sense that you if someone owns a majority in a company, typically they have a say in how things are run
09:33 < fenn> when you say "governance through blockchain" the first thing that comes to mind is not trading shares
09:34 < heath> fenn: right
09:34 < heath> i left the phone call scratching my head a bit
09:34 < heath> but i like what they are doing right now
09:34 < heath> allowing you to offshore your company easily
09:34 < kanzure> very high levels of skepticism are recommended
09:35 < kanzure> why does offshoring have to use a blockchain
09:35 < heath> it doesn't
09:35 < kanzure> wouldn't it be more efficient to.. not use a blockchain?
09:35 < heath> they aren't using a blockchain
09:35 < nmz787_i> .title http://arxiv.org/abs/1405.7729
09:35 < yoleaux> [1405.7729] The Fields of a Charged Particle in Hyperbolic Motion
09:38 < fenn> lol why are people criticizing bitnation for not incorporating
09:39 < kanzure> that's not the criticism
09:39 < kanzure> i mean, that's one criticism, but there are many many others
09:39 < kanzure> like having no technical basis in reality whatsoever
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09:39 < fenn> having your dev team storm off in a huff will do that
09:39 < kanzure> no, the dev team specifically said they were not developing the actual system
09:39 < kanzure> (in that interview)
09:40 < kanzure> and then they realized the operation was a giant scam
09:40 < kanzure> and thought better about it
09:41 < kanzure> you can't just throw random words together and say "that's my whitepaper, and it's a new cryptography primitive and it is magic"
09:41 < fenn> it seems like a valid idea on the face of it; they're basically just providing a notarization and public records service
09:42 < kanzure> but they aren't though
09:42 < kanzure> that doesn't exist
09:42 < fenn> so it's just pure investment fraud
09:43 < fenn> actually i don't see what makes it any more or less a fraud than any altcoin or even bitcoin
09:43 < kanzure> you don't see why altcoins are fraudulent? really?
09:44 < fenn> it's just trading old pokemon playing cards
09:44 < kanzure> if they are insecure then they are broken
09:44 < kanzure> no...
09:44 < kanzure> they are fundamentally insecure and broken.
09:44 < kanzure> well, many of them. the vast majority of them.
09:44 < kanzure> https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf
09:44 < kanzure> https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf
09:47 < fenn> i get the asic argument but i'm not familiar with the details of altcoins having to do with proof of stake, nor do i see its relevance to the discussion about bitnation
09:48 < fenn> god this new comcast service sucks
09:49 < kanzure> the point of reading about proof of stake is to see why altcoin designs can be bad and fraudulent
09:50 < kanzure> when you compromise the design of a system you are breaking things, and ideas become invalid no matter what the marketing says
09:51 < kanzure> and when you just scribble some stuff that makes no sense, that's still invalid
09:51 < fenn> how is this different from a kickstarter
09:52 < kanzure> i think funding for speculative research is fine, but it should be called "speculative research" and not "i have a secure system that does all these things that i have never implemented or that anyone else has implemented, and also blockchains because you know.. blockchains"
09:52 < fenn> i guess bitnation should have just gone with kickstarter if they actually had cash flow problems funding development
09:52 < heath> kanzure: i think you forgot to mention blockchains
09:53 < kanzure> fenn: picking a place randomly and then saying "let's develop that" is a bad strategy. targets should be informed by reality and known constraints, rather than marketing claims.
09:53 < fenn> also making a new coin (XBNX) is pointless
09:53 < kanzure> not for them, they get to jump on the bandwagon of people buying altcoins
09:54 < fenn> is it a duck or a rabbit
09:55 < kanzure> next you're going to tell me "deploying a blockchain is just the same thing as using kickstarter, man"
09:55 < fenn> no, i'm just saying their marketing claims are implementable
09:55 < fenn> and asking for money without a solid product is the same as a kickstarter
09:55 < kanzure> their claims were things like "transnational passports that are accepted in all countries within 2 years"
09:56 < kanzure> "the blockchain will force other governments to accept your passport because magic"
09:56 < fenn> i dont see that anywhere
09:56 < fenn> also, that already exists
09:56 < fenn> .wik fantasy passport
09:56 < yoleaux> "A camouflage passport is a document, designed to look like a real passport, issued in the name of a non-existent country or entity. It may be sold with matching documents, such as an international driver's license, club membership card, insurance documents or similar supporting identity papers." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_passport
09:56 < kanzure> what does that have to do with distributed consensus
09:56 < fenn> in particular http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Service_Authority
09:57 < fenn> er, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Passport
09:57 < kanzure> "without a solid product" is not the same thing as "intentionally compromising on security for the sake of raising money"
09:57 < heath> a passport idea https://github.com/MrChrisJ/World-Citizenship
09:57 < kanzure> and "knowingly making false claims"
09:59 < kanzure> andytoshi: can you give me a good example of an obviously broken altcoin whitepaper
09:59 < kanzure> obvious-to-people-who-read
09:59 < fenn> forget about "altcoins" for a moment
09:59 < fenn> what is specifically wrong with bitnation
09:59 < kanzure> it is an altcoin that is poorly implemented and has broken distributed consensus
10:00 < fenn> ok
10:01 < fenn> how does that help them raise money?
10:01 < kanzure> there is a trend of people investing in anything that claims to be a blockchain
10:02 < kanzure> and by "people" i mean... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=67.0
10:02 < fenn> howabout starting a company that certifies things as "blockchain approved" or whatever
10:03 < fenn> because 99% of investors can't tell the difference
10:03 < kanzure> so you want to use centralization to do.. what now?
10:03 < kanzure> if you are okay with using centralization then why bother with distributed consensus at all?
10:03 < fenn> to specialize in algorithm/implementation verification
10:03 < heath> hm, i have to keep in mind that a CS degree doesn't imply algorithms, data structures, PL theory, or computational theory
10:04 < fenn> heath: that's not a CS degree then
10:04 < heath> fenn, agreed
10:04 < heath> but i know of at least one uni which combined their cs and cis programs
10:04 < heath> so anyone in the cis program is getting a cs degree
10:05 < kanzure> fenn: so far the problem has been that the rate of production of bad whitepapers has been way higher than the capacity of capable reviewers (which is like <100 people worldwide)
10:05 < heath> which means their knowledge is in ms office, html, css, js
10:05 < kanzure> meanwhile.... http://mapofcoins.com/
10:05 < fenn> like i said earlier.. nobody is paying people to review whitepapers
10:06 < kanzure> paying wouldn't work because then people who have raised large amounts of money already will just buy up all your time reviewing junk
10:06 < fenn> then you don't certify anything
10:06 < fenn> you could even have an anti-certification, "certified broken"
10:06 < kanzure> ?
10:06 < fenn> investors would pay to know that stuff they are thinking about investing in is broken
10:07 < kanzure> i doubt it
10:08 < kanzure> usually what happens is that someone in -wizards proposes an attack
10:08 < kanzure> then the person comes up with a convoluted reason why the -wizards are wrong
10:08 < kanzure> repeat forever
10:08 < fenn> when you buy a house, you hire an inspector to make sure there aren't termites or a sagging foundation
10:08 < fenn> if the inspector says "there are termites" and the seller says "there are no termites" who you gonna believe?
10:08 < kanzure> you can physically look at the termites and termite damage
10:09 < fenn> pretend you can't visit the house
10:09 < kanzure> implementing an attack and showing the attack is much more costly than just doing a review
10:10 < kanzure> yeah these people will pay basically anyone to say anything in favor of their decisions
10:10 < fenn> i'm not sure how to get around that
10:10 < kanzure> i'm not sure there is a way
10:10 < fenn> have a really rich guy do the cert :P
10:11 < fenn> (no i'm not serious)
10:12 < fenn> if they had zillions of dollars why are they soliciting fraudulent investments?
10:12 < kanzure> in some cases they genuinely think their idea is good or working
10:13 < kanzure> sorry i didn't mean the authors would be the ones paying, i meant the people getting duped
10:13 < kanzure> "tell me why i like this house so much. i heard it has termites, can i still buy it?"
10:15 < fenn> professional smoke-blower
10:15 < kanzure> and some of them don't really care if they are bad ideas anyway
10:15 < kanzure> or broken, for that matter
10:16 < fenn> yeah by the time it comes crashing down you will have sold off all your shares
10:16 < kanzure> well not even that.. some of these are so broken that as soon as you send payment that's it.
10:16 < kanzure> and then the funds are locked/broken/gone
10:16 < fenn> the money has to go somewhere
10:16 < kanzure> not always, see proof of burn
10:17 < fenn> i guess with bitcoin it can disappear
10:17 < kanzure> sure, like losing a private key or spending everything as a tx fee
10:17 < fenn> tx fee goes to others tho
10:19 < fenn> theoretically someone could bruteforce a "proof of burn" address, no?
10:20 < kanzure> depends on what you mean by theoretically....
10:20 < fenn> with omniscient robot gods from the future
10:20 < kanzure> i don't remember what the number is but does 10^1000000 count as theoretically possible?
10:20 < fenn> yes
10:21 < fenn> because there could be hidden weaknesses in the algorithm that don't break ordinary transactions, but if there's a huge amount sitting in one wallet it might be worth creating a jupiter brain just to crack it
10:22 < fenn> this proof-of-burn article is too long
10:22 < kanzure> link?
10:22 < fenn> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_burn
10:23 < kanzure> hey that's much better than i was expecting
10:24 < fenn> if 10% of bitcoins have been sent to 0000000000000000000000000000000000 then you can be sure people are trying to bruteforce it
10:27 < kanzure> i could have sworn i saw some 1's in there when i first looked
10:28 < fenn> 10^0000000000000000000000000000000
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10:30 < kanzure> jupiter brain would be much more capable of cracking a private key that has been used to sign many public transactions
10:30 < fenn> sure but robot gods would be smart enough to switch to a different private key and not keep too much in any given wallet
10:32 < kanzure> andytoshi: ping
10:33 < kanzure> andytoshi: oh also you might like http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/The%20physics%20of%20information%20processing%20superobjects%20-%20Anders%20Sandberg%20-%201999.pdf
10:33 < fenn> oh man here we go again with identity issues: " A "simulation" of proof-of-work at that level of detail would just be proof-of-work!"
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10:35 < fenn> this is just pointless philosophy anyway, dancing around the question "can there ever be less than 21 million bitcoins?"
10:36 < fenn> or "can bitcoins be destroyed"
10:36 < kanzure> it depends on what you mean "existence"
10:36 < fenn> and hence the no-philosophy rule
10:37 < kanzure> do the bitcoins that have not been mined yet, "exist"?
10:37 < fenn> mrrr
10:37 < kanzure> and i don't mean philosophically.. i mean for whatever the question is that you're trying to answer (which i seem to have missed).
10:38 < fenn> i was trying to show that "some of these are so broken that as soon as you send payment that's it" doesn't mean the money is gone forever
10:38 < fenn> you're just donating to a young superintelligence
10:39 < fenn> consider it a charity
10:39 < kanzure> there are examples of "locked" bitcoin that are unrecoverable because of broken transactions
10:39 < kanzure> i don't know where that list went though.. hrm.
10:39 < fenn> 16th century spaniards probably thought the same thing about their sunken galleons
10:40 < kanzure> i mean ultimately you can just rewrite the protocol and convince people to use that
10:40 < kanzure> so there you go.. but you might as well just say "i can convince the world to change to any protocol i please"
10:40 < fenn> sure and you can switch to silver instead of gold
10:40 < fenn> but it doesn't make the gold disappear
10:41 < kanzure> you have no concept of distributed consensus :(
10:42 < kanzure> yes you can make blocks in the blockchain disappear
10:42 < fenn> are you saying you can make the entire history of the blockchain disappear just by introducing some software change?
10:43 < kanzure> locally, yes, and then "locally" as in "whoever adopts that software"
10:43 < fenn> what would be the point
10:43 < fenn> it's just an altcoin then
10:43 < kanzure> and if the original blockchain that is more like bitcoin-as-it-is-known-today is suddenly not in the consensus set... welp.. it's no different from anyone else showing up with a weirdo chain and trying to claim it's the real one.
10:45 < fenn> it's still real to the nodes running the old software
10:45 < fenn> for the most part i agree though
10:45 < fenn> 51% attacks exist
10:47 < fenn> there would have to be a run on old-bitcoin to drop the value so low that nobody cared about it anymore
10:47 < fenn> this could be triggered by a security flaw, or by satoshi spending his coins
10:48 < fenn> and even then people would probably still trade them
10:48 < kanzure> not necessarily
10:49 < kanzure> suppose there's another chain that people have adopted
10:49 < fenn> i mean they still use dinar and the syrian empire has been out of style since forever
10:49 < kanzure> and is being mined more deliberately or in greater amounts than bitcoin
10:49 < kanzure> the other chain becomes insecure
10:49 < kanzure> because as the price of hashrate goes down so does the cost of an attack on that other blockchain with less miners
10:49 < kanzure> s/with less miners/with less miners or hashrate or whatever the metric is
10:51 < fenn> if you attack a weak blockchain it loses value, so why attack it?
10:51 < kanzure> all sorts of reasons
10:51 < kanzure> double spending
10:52 < fenn> i guess you could do it to spite your enemies
10:52 < kanzure> double spending is a pretty big incentive
10:53 < fenn> wouldn't it be obvious that the network has been taken over?
10:53 < fenn> i'm sorta out of my depth here
10:54 < heath> hoverboard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSheVhmcYLA#t=51
10:54 < kanzure> double spending can happen because you pay someone (a merchant), attack, then pay yourself
10:54 < kanzure> meanwhile merchant might still be processing your order
10:54 < kanzure> or have already delivered
10:56 < heath> reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFaOogd6YyA&src_vid=HSheVhmcYLA&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_1638093149
10:56 < kanzure> .title
10:56 < yoleaux> HUVr Tech - Tony Hawk Reveals Hoverboard Prank - YouTube
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10:58 < heath> hm, hendo hover is a real thing
10:58 < heath> second video was related to some other prank video
10:58 < fenn> they even referenced it at the end, if you had watched it
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10:59 < heath> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/142464853/hendo-hoverboards-worlds-first-real-hoverboard
11:00 < fenn> it's just a quadcopter dude
11:01 < fenn> except with no avionics
11:04 < fenn> oh i'm wrong, apparently it uses eddy currents?
11:05 < heath> yes
11:05 < fenn> why would they do that; it means you cant hover over anything except good conductors
11:09 < nmz787_i> it is neat to say the least
11:09 < nmz787_i> i saw that a few weeks ago
11:10 < nmz787_i> a metallized skate park doesn't seem out of the realm of possiblity
11:13 < fenn> maybe with a strong enough field and really fast rotors it wouldn't need a specialized surface, but that's pretty out-there
11:14 < fenn> you'd need compact high-current superconducting coils and a high specific power density energy source
11:15 < fenn> it would probably kill any human within a few meters
11:15 < fenn> unshielded human*
11:31 < kanzure> hm.
11:34 < fenn> why are coins round?
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11:36 < paperlooker> the fact that people crowdfund a company which patents it's technology :/
11:36 < kanzure> wouldn't a jupiter brain have other things to be doing?
11:38 < fenn> hmm "Square coins would wear off on the corners, as well as make holes in pockets.
11:39 < fenn> not sure i believe that
11:39 < fenn> http://chinesecoins.lyq.dk/History/knife_coins.htm predecessor to round coins
11:57 < fenn> haha "attention all thieves, rich man approaching" http://chinesecoins.lyq.dk/MyBestCoins/content/_9683572751_large.html
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11:59 < kanzure> szabo probably has a thing about it
11:59 < kanzure> something about giant statues being used
11:59 < kanzure> and making them round meant it was easier to roll them around between houses
11:59 < kanzure> i don't know. sounded silly.
12:00 < fenn> that doesn't seem to apply to the chinese warring states period
12:00 < kanzure> "hplusroadmap wonders why coins are round"
12:00 < heath> did anyone by chance watch transcendence? it was nice to bring the idea to the public, but i was a bit disappointed
12:00 < chris_99> yeah i watched it
12:00 < chris_99> it was ok, but a bit too actiony maybe
12:01 < heath> he would distributed himself if he wanted to stay alive, and maybe that's what they were showing at the end, but i wanted more of the futuristic stuff :)
12:01 < heath> would +have
12:01 < fenn> this one can't figure out if it's a knife or a round http://chinesecoins.lyq.dk/MyBestCoins/content/_2579356985_large.html
12:09 < fenn> many of these knife coins look like they would actually be useful as tools
12:14 < fenn> it's really remarkable how little the writing has changed since then
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12:33 < fenn> this is what physical bitcoins should look like http://chinesecoins.lyq.dk/ImagesHartill/Qing/content/_0623478244_large.html
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12:35 < heath> .title https://iwilcox.me.uk/2014/proving-bitcoin-reserves
12:35 < yoleaux> Proving Your Bitcoin Reserves
12:38 < kanzure> heath: https://github.com/petertodd/python-merbinnertree
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14:45 < fenn> the time traveler's son
14:46 < fenn> he's his own grandpa
14:46 < nmz787_i> .wik bolometer
14:46 < yoleaux> "A bolometer (Greek: βολόμετρον "bolometron", meaning measurer (-μετρον) of thrown things (βολο-) ) is a device for measuring the power of incident electromagnetic radiation via the heating of a material with a temperature-dependent electrical resistance. It was invented in 1878 by the American astronomer Samuel Pierpont Langley." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolometer
14:49 < nmz787_i> .translate bengali bolo
14:50 < fenn> .tr is broken
14:50 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, that command (.tr) crashed.
14:50 < nmz787_i> anyway, bolo means something like
14:50 < nmz787_i> 'speak'
14:50 < nmz787_i> so I thought it was funny that a bolometer measures heat (or hot air)
14:51 < fenn> apparently it measures thrown things
14:51 < nmz787_i> what language does bolo mean throw?
14:52 < fenn> greek (βολο-)
14:52 < nmz787_i> ah
14:52 < nmz787_i> right
14:52 < nmz787_i> that lambda didn't compute as a phoneme
14:53 < nmz787_i> beta-O-lambda-O
14:53 < fenn> because mathematicians are bastards
14:57 < JohanTitor> fenn: that would have to be a theorem in all possible axiomatic systems. Q.E.D.
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15:27 < kragen> round is the shape you get by stamping faces on blobs of gold, I figured
15:27 < kragen> I think the fluted Clovis points were plausibly used as coins too
15:29 < kragen> lots of early stamped coins are only approximately round: http://www.fleur-de-coin.com/currency/greek-coin-history
15:29 < kragen> although the shapes stamped on them were of all kinds of shapes
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15:34 < kragen> my understanding is that basically the design on the coin served as a seal identifying the issuer and the assertion they were making about the coin in a difficult-to-forge fashion, in the same way that a seal in wax identifies the issuer
15:34 < kragen> since at the time it was not practically possible to copy the die used for striking the coins
15:35 < kragen> and typically the assertion was about the composition and weight of the coin
15:36 < kragen> the process of striking makes the coin rounder
15:38 < kragen> but approximately-round coins are vulnerable to clipping, so you got rounder coins and then, since the 16th century, milled edges
15:39 < kragen> and since the 17th, text-engraved rims as well
15:42 < kragen> hmm, apparently "ridged" or "grooved" are the normal terms for milled edges
15:43 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8630932
15:43 < yoleaux> Half of stars lurk outside galaxies | Hacker News
15:48 < kanzure> "(MS decided windows programmers shouldn't be using asm anymore and they don't support inline asm with msvc on x86_64)"
15:51 < kragen> that's amusing
15:52 < kragen> I guess if you really care about performance at that level though you are probably not going to be programming a CPU
15:52 < kanzure> or you're not going to be compiling any x86_64 projects with inline asm
15:52 < kragen> I don't think I understand what you mean
15:53 < kanzure> msvc is often used by windows people to do windows builds of projects
15:53 < kanzure> sometimes these projects have inline asm
15:54 < kragen> do they really?
15:54 < kragen> I mean if MSVC on amd64 doesn't support inline asm, then that inline asm is going to be using GCC syntax or it's going to be i386 assembly
15:55 < kanzure> huh?
15:55 < kragen> so it's not like they're missing out on being able to compile existing codebases
15:56 < kanzure> hm
15:56 < kragen> presumably they still support compiling projects with inline i386 assembly if you're compiling for an i386 target
15:56 < kanzure> i see.
15:56 < kragen> and presumably they didn't at any time in the past support inline amd64 assembly or GCC inline assembly syntax
15:56 < kragen> although these are lots of presumptions
15:58 < kragen> but I don't think it's a backwards-compatibility obstacle unless those presumptions are wrong.
15:58 < kragen> it is, however, a statement about how they expect people to be optimizing their code in the future: without using inline asm.
15:58 < kragen> which probably means without using asm.
15:59 < kragen> which is probably because if C isn't fast enough then you can get more mileage out of your GPU or out of SSE intrinsics than out of just writing shit in assembly.
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16:44 < fenn> kragen: what i learned from looking at far too many ancient chinese coins is that: the overwhelming majority are cast, bear the name of the issuing authority, have a square hole in the center, have a rim, and are round
16:44 < nmz787_i1> doubles as a square nut-driver
16:44 < fenn> what is the purpose of the square hole?
16:44 < nmz787_i1> for their square corked chinese medicine bottles
16:45 < nmz787_i1> or a 'key' for a water spigot
16:45 < nmz787_i1> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31qHNHgiF1L._SY300_.jpg
16:45 < nmz787_i1> bam, square hole function determined
16:46 < nmz787_i1> guess this is more circular http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/037155/037155014866lg.jpg
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17:06 < kragen> fenn: yes, I don't know why cast coins are round
17:07 < kragen> and I don't know why Chinese coins have holes in them, let alone square ones
17:08 < fenn> obviously so you can carry them on a string
17:09 < fenn> before tables were widespread it would be difficult to make stacks, and they probably weren't regular enough to stack reliably
17:09 < kragen> I guess a string is easier than a penny roll
17:09 < kragen> is that a string of cash in your pocket? , or are you just happy to see me?
17:10 < kanzure> pfft you people and your flat surfaces
17:10 < fenn> the earlier knife money and ant-nose money also had holes
17:12 < kragen> any idea on why it's square?
17:15 < fenn> “The granaries in the cities and the countryside were full and the government treasuries were running over with wealth. In the capital the strings of cash had been stacked up by the hundreds of millions until the cords that bound them had rotted away and they could no longer be counted.”
17:15 < fenn> oh here we go
17:15 < fenn> "Most Chinese coins were produced with a square hole in the middle. This was used to allow collections of coins to be threaded on a square rod so that the rough edges could be filed smooth, and then threaded on strings for ease of handling."
17:16 < fenn> so it is in fact a torque spline
17:17 < kragen> "so that the rough edges could be filed smooth"?
17:17 < fenn> there were a lot of coins with square holes that never got the smoothing treatment
17:18 < kragen> oh.  like by lathing the coin stack?
17:18 < fenn> basically turning on a spindle (lathe is too classy a word for this sort of activity)
17:19 < fenn> if you chuck a square bar up in a power drill, is it a lathe? (i think not)
17:20 < fenn> the casting process leaves flash from the two halves of the mold
17:20 < kragen> it's an Afghan lathe
17:21 < fenn> "that's racist!"
17:21 < kragen> no, Afghanistan is just poor
17:22 < fenn> .title http://lumberjocks.com/projects/46616
17:22 < yoleaux> A Homemade Lathe, in Afghanistan - by David @ LumberJocks.com ~ woodworking community
17:22 < fenn> why would they have power drills in afghanistan, they don't even have electricity
17:23 < kragen> everyone has electricity, fenn
17:23 < fenn> o right i forgot about the orbiting solar power satellites providing free electricity to the world
17:23 < fenn> and the wardenclyffe transmitter
17:23 < fenn> those silly afghans
17:24 < kragen> I mean, that's my experience. there are actually people who don't have electricity, but very, very few
17:24 < kragen> it's just a question of how expensive and how unreliable
17:24 < kragen> and, well, what voltage and stuff like that
17:24 < bbrittain> I've been in some places where they have electricity, but it's super spotty
17:25 < bbrittain> like tibet
17:25 < kragen> yeah
17:25 < fenn> did they have power drills?
17:25 < bbrittain> sure, they have TVs in some houses, but their school doesn't have lights
17:25 < bbrittain> and yes, I actually saw a power drill
17:25 < kragen> yeah, power drills come before TVs
17:25 < kragen> ever drilled metal by hand?
17:25 < fenn> yes
17:26 < kragen> it's a pain in the ass, isn't it?
17:26 < fenn> depends on the size of the hole
17:26 < fenn> and the depth of the hole
17:26 < bbrittain> the house I stayed in overnight in 青海 was hands down the wealthiest, they had a chinese carpenter staying there for a couple of weeks building and addition onto their house
17:26 < bbrittain> but... I still had to shit in a dungpile outside
17:26 < bbrittain> third world man :/
17:27 < fenn> really deep holes are hard to do because you break the bit, but larger holes are actually easier because most power drills go too fast
17:27 < fenn> but large and deep holes are a pain, yes
17:28 < fenn> is that "blue sea"? in tibet?
17:29 < bbrittain> yea, it is. That place was actually on the tibetan plateu, not actualy tibet
17:29 < kragen> power tools are huge labor svers
17:29 < bbrittain> well... depends on if you respect chinese government boundries :P
17:29 < kragen> savers
17:29 < kragen> and you can run them off motor scooters if you have to
17:29 < bbrittain> super huge lake. very cold. fun dunes to play on nearby.
17:30 < fenn> kragen how does that work?
17:30 < kragen> even the crappiest little two-stroke engine needs at least a glowplug to start, and usually sparkplugs
17:30 < kragen> so they have batteries
17:30 < fenn> they don't use magnetos?
17:31 < kragen> hmm, I guess I haven't ever actually seen an ignition magneto
17:31 < fenn> it looks like a transformer in that it's made of laminated plates
17:32 < fenn> but it has a specific shape on the inside to control the magnetic flux
17:32 < kragen> maybe there are motor scooters without batteries. I should ask one of the folks I see riding bicycles with retrofitted two-stroke engines around here
17:34 < fenn> wtf
17:34 < fenn> "The first ignition system to use an electric spark was probably Alessandro Volta's toy electric pistol from the 1780s."
17:34 < kragen> anyway, though, motor scooters with batteries are common even in places like Pohnpei and Trujillo, Perú
17:34 < kragen> and actually so are cars, which also have batteries
17:34 < fenn> yeah
17:35 < fenn> but in afghanistan there are lots of people who live in mud houses and their mode of transport is donkey
17:35 < kragen> also true in those two places
17:35 < kragen> I only mentioned them because I spent some time there, while I have never been to Afghanistan
17:36 < fenn> right
17:36 < fenn> i guess a lot of it depends on the social structure; whether you can borrow your neighbor's tools or not
17:37 < kragen> yeah, if you're living in a Cormac McCarthy novel you may be SOL
17:37 < fenn> gah that's the second time today someone's mentioned him
17:37 < bkero> kragen: Nah. I've been living in All the Pretty Horses. It's been good so far.
17:37 < kragen> bkero: that sounds interesting. how so?
17:40 < ParahSailin_> the money on a string was copper, so you needed lots of strings of 100 to pay for anything worthwhile
17:40 < kragen> yeah
17:41 < kragen> bkero: have you been stabbed frequently?
17:41 < fenn> heh
17:41 < bkero> kragen: sort of
17:41 < bkero> Not in a Mexican prison though
17:41 < kragen> that sucks.  in a hospital, I hope?
17:43 < kragen> that's the only place I've had people cutting me with knives, although I have gotten into a few scrapes involving bottles and chairs as weapons
17:44 < kragen> so far I've been lucky enough not to get attacked with knives.  known three people it happened to while I knew them, though
17:46 < bkero> Brussels mostly
17:48 < kragen> heroin? diabetes?
17:48 < fenn> death by croissant
17:49 < kragen> <belgians> we will stab you! with a croissant!
17:52 < fenn> jeez in ancient china a horse was worth 3 years labor
17:53 < kragen> that's a bit higher than today
17:53 < kragen> well, in the US
17:54 < kragen> here in Buenos Aires I see horse carts fairly regularly, although they've been illegal for almost a century
17:54 < fenn> a horse was worth 3 cubic meters of polished white rice
17:54 < kragen> that reminds me of "three tons of flax!"
17:54 < fenn> about the same amount
17:55 < kragen> apparently if you live outside the city a horse and cart has lower total cost of ownership than a pickup truck
17:55 < kragen> in part because you don't have to buy gas
17:55 < kragen> so lots of trash-pickers use horses to haul their recyclables around
17:55 < fenn> rice is (lazyweb sez) 0.8 tonne/m^3
17:58 < kragen> I think it's a fair bet that the trash-pickers aren't investing three years of earnings in anything, let alone an animal that will die in a decade or two
17:58 < kragen> so it seems likely that the price is a lot lower than that here and now, in terms of labor
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18:00 < fenn> labor is worth more and the cost of raising the horse has fallen
18:00 < kragen> I don't know, I imagine it takes about the same amount of labor to raise a horse now that it did 3000 years ago
18:01 < fenn> depends on how you do it
18:01 < fenn> i imagine it takes the same amount of labor to _train_ the horse
18:01 < kragen> I think the cheapest way to do it is still how people did it 3000 years ago
18:01 < fenn> round up wild horses?
18:02 < kragen> I don't think there are horse breeding mills the way there are puppy mills to sell pet dogs
18:02 < kragen> that have, like, optimized horse processing ruthlessly
18:02 < fenn> "most pleasure riders can find a good-natured, healthy trail horse for less than $5,000"
18:02 < kragen> you can round up wild horses, or you can raise them up from foals
18:03 < fenn> presumably that means a trained horse
18:03 < kragen> yeah, there's no way the cartoneros are paying US$5000 for their horses
18:03 < fenn> "rail riders often choose Quarter Horses which can cost $1,000-$4,000"
18:04 < fenn> "a $500 to $1000 horse. These are often youngsters with little training or handling, or horses with soundness, conformation or behavioral issues."
18:05 < fenn> i guess it's like "how much does a car cost"
18:05 < kragen> yeah, kinda
18:05 < kragen> if you get a reservation car that only goes in reverse it can be pretty cheap
18:05 < kragen> but you still have to put money into fixing and feeding it
18:06 < fenn> the car or the horse
18:06 < kragen> both
18:06 < kragen> and I don't think breaking broncos has been the usual way of getting horses even in Mongol times, although I admit to ignorance here
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18:07 < kragen> so I guess what I'm saying is that I think that three-years-of-labor thing must have been either anomalous (an unusually expensive horse) or due to artificially restricted supply
18:07 < kragen> e.g. because the king didn't want peasants to ride around raiding
18:08 < fenn> the horse was 3-4kg of minted bronze
18:09 < kragen> so's your old man
18:09 < bbrittain> FYI: more storytime, been to mongolia, still break their horses
18:10 < bbrittain> they have sorta half pastures that people sorta have horses which are theres
18:10 < bbrittain> but those horses are wild unbroken fuckers that will run away if you try to ride them and aren't a mongolian
18:11 < bbrittain> I watched a guy almost get kicked in his face while trying to saddle it
18:11 < bbrittain> it ran away
18:11 < kanzure> they should just use clickers
18:11 < fenn> rice was worth 1.7g bronze per kilogram of rice (?)
18:12 < kragen> bbrittain: so even before breaking, the horses have owners who take responsibility for feeding them?  or not really?
18:12 < bbrittain> kragen: nah, they don't feed em
18:12 < bbrittain> and keep in mind they are still semi-nomadic
18:12 < bbrittain> but they feel a responsability to the herd they are at the time using
18:13 < kragen> I guess I'm trying to figure out how this affects the cost of horses
18:13 < fenn> so the horse is like family?
18:13 < kragen> or if people even buy and sell them
18:14 < bbrittain> this goes beyond my mongolian horse knowledge, I was only there for like 4 days
18:14 < bbrittain> but I sorta got frostbite riding one
18:15 < bbrittain> payed some nomads ~$7 dollars since there weren't any tourst establishments open in the winter
18:15 < bbrittain> fucking cold
18:15 < fenn> all four seasons in a day
18:16 < kragen> thank you!
18:16 < kragen> I guess I don't know enough to have a sensible opinion
18:16  * bbrittain feels that way all the time
18:17 < delinquentme> lel http://techcrunch.com/2014/11/19/mozilla-partners-with-yahoo-which-will-become-the-default-search-engine-in-firefox-next-month/?ncid=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Techcrunch+%28TechCrunch%29&utm_content=FaceBook
18:17 < delinquentme> oh geeze. shoulda cleaned that.
18:17 < delinquentme> dealwithit.jpg
18:17 < bbrittain> ugh, just link to chris beard's announcement
18:17 < kragen> from a Facebook group I'm in, translated from Spanish: "Hey, I have earlier photos of your dick, Sean :P But it was censored by Jill's cunt.  BTW, the photo confuses me; your foreskin pulls WAY back, or are you circumcised?"
18:17 < bbrittain> https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/11/19/promoting-choice-and-innovation-on-the-web/
18:18 < fenn> "thank you for accompanying us on this incredible journey"
18:18 < bbrittain> I may feel more strongly about this than the average person since I've worked at Mozilla in the past but... GOOD RIDANCE GOOGLE. GO AWAY NOW PLZ.
18:18 < kragen> "thank you for accompanying us on this incredible journey" is how I'm feeling about this Facebook group
18:19 < kragen> although I haven't posted any dick pics myself, and I probably won't
18:20 < fenn> yahoo's search results now look a lot like google's
18:23 < kragen> heh, his wife answered and confirmed that he's circumcised.
18:24 < fenn> if you had switched the logos and changed the purple map marker, i wouldn't have noticed the difference
18:25 < fenn> i doubt the average user knows the difference
18:26 < kragen> what is the average user like these days?
18:27 < fenn> your facebook friends
18:27 < kragen> I'm pretty sure that "Jill" and "Sean" know the difference
18:28 < fenn> ok i have no idea
18:28 < fenn> "asian" apparently
18:29 < kragen> I think "Sean" just registered a domain name in a couple of different country codes, for all that he uploaded his dick pic to Tinypic instead of his own server
18:30 < fenn> "sean" uploaded his own pic?
18:33 < kragen> yes
18:33 < fenn> i love these kind of distorted maps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:InternetPopulation2011_DeSabbata_Graham_OII.png
18:34 < kragen> "Well, I took dick pics, for the first time. But after J's [dick pics], I feel inhibited. :D"
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18:37 < kragen> (presumably because J's provoked rave reviews from (especially) the women in the group, along with incredulity and curious questions about the physical integrity of his girlfriend's genitalia)
18:37 < kragen> that distorted map is awesome
18:38 < kragen> I have a hard time telling most of the colors apart though
18:40 < fenn> 25% of internet users are chinese but only 4% of internet content is in the chinese language
18:41 < kragen> that's amazing
18:41 < kragen> what percentage speak English?
18:41 < kragen> I'm guessing Spanish is #2
18:41 < fenn> 27% speak english and 8% speak spanish
18:41 < kragen> and not just from the captions teenagers put on the photos they upload of their bare breasts to Facebook
18:41 < fenn> 50% of content is english and 5% spanish
18:42 < bkero> Yeah, we ditched Google
18:42 < bkero> For everybody else
18:43 < kragen> is there something between 50% and 5%?  Japanese, German, Dutch?
18:43 < fenn> russian is 6%, and "other" is 11%
18:44 < fenn> i'm just reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage
18:44 < kragen> Russian, naturally
18:44 < fenn> "other" is a surprisingly large chunk
18:44 < fenn> well the soviets did invent the internats
18:45 < kragen> I think you could rephrase the Long Tail hypothesis as '"other" is a surprisingly large chunk'
18:45 < kragen> which illuminates how non-falsifiable it is
18:45 < fenn> other is usually not such a big chunk
18:46 < fenn> it's usually less than 5%
18:46 < fenn> in whatever context
18:46 < kanzure> "argues that products in low demand or that have a low sales volume can collectively build a better market share than its rivals"
18:47 < kanzure> yes well, not having something in stock is a good way to miss a sale
18:51 < kanzure> "1) where the price of carrying additional inventory approaches zero and 2) where consumers have strong and heterogeneous preferences"
18:51 < fenn> i can't actually find a good statistical summary of salient characteristics of "the average internet user"
18:54 < fenn> citizen soldiers of cyberia, we must commit to correct this deficit in our understanding
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18:55 < kanzure> shrug, look at ad data or youtube viewerstats
18:55 < fenn> but youtube is blocked in china (?)
18:55 < kanzure> then pick tudou
18:56 < ParahSailin_> wut, its youku now
18:58 < kanzure> damn it
18:59 < fenn> ugh http://rack.1.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDEyLzEyLzA0L2Y3L25pZWxzZW53ZWJiLmJkRi5qcGcKcAl0aHVtYgkxMjAweDk2MDA-/e2917948/2ed/nielsen-web-brands-sept09.jpg
19:00 < fenn> i sure hope the long tail makes up for that
19:01 < fenn> those 10 sites account for about 25% of time spent on internet
19:02 < fenn> 15% of waking time
19:02 < fenn> "trailing TV by a significant margin"
19:03 < kragen> fenn: those 10 sites trail TV, or the internet as a whole does?
19:04 < fenn> internet usage as a whole
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19:04 < fenn> 2009 data from nielsen group says 68 hours spent on internet and 141 hours on tv per month
19:05 < kragen> probably better now
19:05 < kragen> that was basically pre-Facebook, and it was pre-Facetime and pre-WhatsApp
19:06 < kragen> and pre-Farmville, no?
19:06 < kragen> the dick thread continues.  Another girl volunteers, "Once I fucked a circumcised dude and didn't know how to beat him off."
19:07 < kragen> Me: "So what did you end up doing?"
19:07 < kragen> Her: "I sucked it."
19:09 < kragen> I have a hard time imagining that most people are intentionally choosing to watch TV rather than swap war stories about embarrassing or difficult sexual encounters online.
19:11 < fenn> 2013 TV usage in US was 84 hours per month
19:11 < kragen> that's down almost 40%!!!!
19:12 < fenn> this is BLS data so it may not be an accurate comparison
19:14 < fenn> i dunno.. this survey sucks, "How do you spend your leisure time? [ ] Socializing and communicating"
19:14 < kragen> 2009 was also pre-BuzzFeed and pre-Upworthy and sort of pre-Vice-Media
19:14 < fenn> is vice really that mainstream now?
19:15 < fenn> last i looked they were just getting started on HBO
19:15 < kragen> I don't know how mainstream they are
19:16 < fenn> in my mind vice magazine is what drug dealers read
19:16 < kragen> they have 1368 videos on their YouTube channel, of which the two most popular have 12 million views
19:16 < kragen> I am certain you are correct about that :)
19:16 < kragen> amusingly though their most popular video is about tardigrades
19:16 < fenn> weird
19:16 < fenn> .gc tardigrade
19:17 < yoleaux> 348,000 (site), 30,400 (api)
19:17 < kragen> I don't know how tardigrades beat out "The biggest ass in Brazil" but they did
19:19 < kragen> I mean I don't mean to be elitist but I am amazed that extremophile microbiology has mass popular appeal
19:22 < kragen> particularly to an audience to which the video editors felt that the world "ubiquitous" needed a gloss
19:23 < fenn> 2013 data from nielsen says 157 hours of TV per month, 14 (?) hours on facebook as part of 61 hours on internet (40% on a PC 60% on a phone)
19:23 < kragen> that's less inspiring
19:23 < fenn> o wait i added that up wrong
19:24 < fenn> is netflix internet or tv?
19:24 < kragen> I don't know
19:24 < kragen> it's clearly internet
19:24 < fenn> let's say tv
19:24 < kragen> it might also be TV
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19:25 < fenn> ah hell i dont know http://marketingland.com/wp-content/ml-loads/2014/02/Screen-Shot-2014-02-11-at-5.56.18-AM.png
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19:27 < fenn> not sure how they got 157 out of that
19:28 < kragen> 134 hours is still a lot
19:28 < fenn> + 13 hours time shifted tv
19:29 < kragen> yeah, no idea
19:29 < fenn> that's one third of waking time
19:29 < kragen> yeah
19:30 < fenn> vs roughly 1/6 on the internet
19:31 < kragen> merging the beginning of the "Biggest Ass in Brazil" video, "Russians love drinking and AK-47s, and Americans love just being fat sacks of useless shit, and Brazilians love having big asses" with Scott Alexander http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/
19:31 < kragen> I think we can deduce that Vice is squarely aimed at people who hate rednecks
19:32 < kragen> which is to say, middle- to upper-class white people
19:33 < fenn> TRIGGER WARNING: Contains Social Justice
19:33 < kanzure> this plan is going down the gutter
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19:34 < kragen> but it's, I guess obviously, not a particularly intellectually challenging piece of content
19:35 <@kanzure> china-spam: "I'm Candy and we are glad to know that u’re on the market for PE granules. We specialize in manufacturing and exporting plastic raw materials for many years."
19:35 < kragen> not that the tardigrade video is particularly so either
19:36 < kragen> kanzure: related to your remark from yesterday about the necessity for Turing-Test-passing spambots, I've been getting lots of Project Gutenberg padding in my spam today
19:37 < fenn> that's not at all new
19:37 < kragen> no
19:38 < kragen> but apparently they're still getting away with it
19:39 < fenn> you got somethin against literate spambots?
19:40 < kragen> well, it would seem that CAPTCHAs and more manual *TCHAs are, in the general case, how people defend against spam
19:42 <@kanzure> i didn't say nothing about turing tests
19:42 < kragen> but so far nobody is taking that challenge on seriously because there's still so much low-hanging fruit in spamming undiscriminating people
19:43 < kragen> kanzure: you said it wasn't worthwhile to make spambots artificially intelligent
19:43 < kragen> when we were talking about reputation metrics
19:43 <@kanzure> something about "useful work"
19:43 < kragen> yeah
19:43 <@kanzure> to the spammers the bots are already doing extremely useful work
19:44 <@kanzure> otherwise they wouldn't bother
19:44 < fenn> if a spambot gets upvoted on reddit, it's presumably contributed something worthwhile
19:44 < kragen> but we were talking about making the bots do useful work for the spammees so they would pay attention to the spam
19:44 < fenn> (unless the whole voting system is compromised)
19:46 <@kanzure> (of course it is)
19:47 < kragen> not very
19:47 < fenn> when spambots rule, only humans will be criminals
19:47 < fenn> i mean, only the criminals will have humans
19:48 < kragen> fenn: I think drug dealers watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKlpMxBX-jk&list=UU976cmBIr3xFimgrzPjc8pg
19:48 < kragen> the #1 video on that channel has 14 million views
19:49 < fenn> meh
19:49 < fenn> .title
19:49 < yoleaux> Insane Clown Posse - Juggalo Island - YouTube
19:49 <@kanzure> kragen how can you go from so high signal to uh... not.
19:50 <@kanzure> or is this fenn's fault
19:50 < kragen> I'm interested in what is going on in popular culture
19:50 < kragen> the topic here was "who is the average internet user"
19:50 < kragen> admittedly that is a very difficult topic to get a handle on
19:51 < fenn> i have an idea about what such a dataset might look like
19:51 < fenn> but afaict it's not available
19:51 < kragen> but I am pretty sure that the answer involves butts and music and online video
19:52 <@kanzure> why would you be interested in data about the average internet user
19:52 < kragen> but I don't think it is close to "Americans love just being fat sacks of useless shit," because that is a very minority viewpoint
19:52 <@kanzure> why not "average coffee drinker" or some other totally boring thing
19:52 <@kanzure> who cares whether or not it is minority argh
19:53 <@kanzure> yes whether or not others accept a viewpoint influences whether or not it's right or wrong...... uh, no.
19:53 < fenn> i think the usual idea is to learn how to better exploit them for your own gain
19:53 < kragen> well, I wasn't opining on whether it was right or wrong
19:53 < kragen> I was just saying that it means that Vice isn't aimed at drug dealers
19:54 < kragen> it's aimed at what Scott Alexander is calling "the Blue Tribe"
19:54 < fenn> pax dickinson
19:54 <@kanzure> man you are going to kill this place
19:54 < kragen> the people who will hear that statement and say "haha, yes, that's so right"
19:55 <@kanzure> are you really this oblivious
19:55 < kragen> I don't know what you mean
19:55 <@kanzure> so yes.. hah.
19:55 < kragen> I'm trying to figure out what are the mass media of the new century
19:55 < fenn> have you finished beating off yet
19:55 < kragen> Vice isn't it
19:56 < fenn> (unfair question tactic)
19:56 < kragen> heh
19:56 < kragen> more likely it's something that gets people laid
19:56 < kragen> like WhatsApp
19:56 < kragen> or Facebook
19:56 <@kanzure> can you go away
19:59 <@kanzure> i don't know what sort of mood you're presently in but it's extremely destructive and detrimental to signal preservation
19:59 <@kanzure> and it needs to be put into some other irc channel or other outlet that is not hplusroadmap
20:00 < fenn> probably #lesswrong
20:00 <@kanzure> i don't know, don't tell them i said that
20:01 <@kanzure> s/plan/place
20:03 <@kanzure> it would be nice if i was better at accurately identifying the mode of thought that i am trying to shoo away
20:03 <@kanzure> maybe jrayhawk will pick up my slack
20:03 <@kanzure> it's fairly subtle and not the usual sort of mess we get into around here
20:04 < fenn> the crime was probably pasting stuff from facebook
20:05 <@kanzure> ehhh part of the trend that i can't identify
20:05 <@kanzure> s/can't/haven't
20:06 < fenn> maybe it is me.. i can't say cause i'm biased
20:06 <@kanzure> i mean, totally random stuff has been known to happen
20:07 < fenn> ancient chinese coin minting practices seemed relevant at the time...
20:07 <@kanzure> well they probably didn't have any other ideas
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20:10 < delinquentme> internet cats.
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20:43 < jrayhawk> fenn: pax correctly attributed it scott
20:53 < delinquentme> Ok I need a given API ( python / js / ruby / xyz ) for a long running ( ~20min socket ? ) API connection .. which will run shell scripts
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21:02 < fenn> my bad, i'm reading everything in reverse chronological order
21:08 < fenn> huh. "a regular digital signature is a zero knowledge proof. it proves they know a secret without you learning anything about the secret"
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21:18 < FAMAS> hello all
21:27 < FAMAS> anyone know about euglena?
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21:33 < FAMAS> anyone know about euglena?
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22:05 < delinquentme> http://kotaku.com/expelled-from-paradise-is-ghost-in-the-shell-meets-trig-1660014154
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22:09 < superkuh> Linking kotaku. :|
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22:14 < bkero> :/ mecha
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--- Log closed Thu Nov 20 00:00:56 2014