--- Log opened Sat Nov 22 00:00:21 2014
--- Day changed Sat Nov 22 2014
00:00 < nickjohnson> nmz787_i: the ad9850 is a much older chip, and I'm fairly certain the modules you see on what are clones. Its capabilities are broadly similar, though.
00:00 < yoleaux> 21 Nov 2014 22:29Z <nmz787_i> nickjohnson: do you know what the difference between say the DDS60 (or your project) and these ~$5 modules on ebay (search AD9850 )
00:51 < kragen> kanzure: I hate to joi in the three minute hate, but Ait does seem like he ought to have known that the men who went to the moon had what was effectively a programmed pocket calculator with real-time control
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04:52 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23806776
04:52 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016%2Fj.brainres.2013.06.024
05:09 < kanzure> hmm.
05:09 < ebowden> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10571-013-0012-y
05:09 < kanzure> .title
05:09 < yoleaux> Valproate Improves Memory Deficits in an Alzheimer’s disease Mouse Model: Investigation of Possible Mechanisms of Action - Springer
05:15 < ebowden> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10571-013-0012-y
05:18 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22326482
05:18 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016%2Fj.brainresbull.2012.01.011
05:31 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24939432
05:31 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1007%2Fs10571-013-0012-y
05:33 < ebowden> So many delicious papers! :D
05:56 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-pharmtox-011112-140216
05:56 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1146%2Fannurev-pharmtox-011112-140216
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06:07 < ebowden> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hipo.22286/abstract
06:12 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22583411
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07:03 < kanzure> kvm security stuff http://lwn.net/Articles/619332/
07:03 < kanzure> .title http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2014/Nov/51
07:03 < yoleaux> Full Disclosure: CVE-2014-7911: Android <5.0 Privilege Escalation using ObjectInputStream
07:04 < kanzure> (not quite root though)
07:04 < kanzure> "program synthesis in reverse engineering" http://www.nosuchcon.org/talks/2014/D1_01_Rolf_Rolles_Program_Synthesis_in_reverse_Engineering.pdf
07:05 < kanzure> .title http://adsecurity.org/?p=525
07:05 < yoleaux> MS14-068: Vulnerability in (Active Directory) Kerberos Could Allow Elevation of Privilege » Active Directory Security
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10:24 < fenn> 1% of "overhead" costs go to shared equipment: http://www.nature.com/news/indirect-costs-keeping-the-lights-on-1.16376
10:24 < fenn> 15% go to "administration"
10:24 < kanzure> isn't it supposed to be >55% of all grant money goes to administration
10:24 < kanzure> oh, this is other money
10:25 < fenn> a rate of 100% means that half of the money awarded goes to the university and half to the researcher('s expenses)
10:26 < fenn> er, yeah
10:27 < fenn> it's not surprising that universities get less support from grants; they're being paid in other ways by the students and state
10:28 < fenn> but still.. 1% goes to equipment? that's nuts
10:29 < kanzure> i dunno how many of those labs are just renting equipment
10:29 < kanzure> or uh, the other thing that isn't renting but not ownership
10:32 < yashgaroth> borrowed or stolen
10:32 < kanzure> when you're paying a mortgage
10:32 < kanzure> i suppose that's renting but it's not called renting
10:32 < kanzure> leasing. there we go.
10:34 < yashgaroth> universities aren't usually splashing out on expensive new equipment every year, but 1% does seem low
10:34 < kanzure> might be donations?
10:34 < fenn> according to my informant at the NSF, most large pieces of shared equipment are paid for directly by grants, not as "overhead"
10:35 < fenn> stand down, citizen cyber soldiers
10:35 < kanzure> nsf/nih seems a lot like a central bank of science.
10:36 < kanzure> is there a name for the concept of "central banks buying indiscriminately distorts the market against whatever reality actually is"
10:36 < fenn> science has been undervalued for so long that it's impossible to get anyone to invest in it
10:36 < fenn> basic research
10:37 < kanzure> "market distortion"
10:37 < kanzure> oh right, when prices break down, nobody can get anything done
10:37 < fenn> bell labs was something of an outlier
10:38 < fenn> nasa had the same effect on the private space industry by flying shuttle missions for dinky little satellites
10:40 < kanzure> huh i can't find anyone talking about this effect (via grants)
10:41 < fenn> because science isn't considered a market unless you're a raving lunatic anarcho-capitalist
10:41 < kanzure> i know the conventional understanding is something like "derr, they are so incapable of making money that they have to be given money to make any of it happen" but surely there's a contrarian opinion somewhere
10:42 < fenn> the idea is that being forced to make money affects decisions about what sort of research gets done
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10:42 < kanzure> http://archive.mises.org/15259/the-myth-of-under-provision-of-science-by-the-free-market/
10:43 < fenn> he starts off talking about science like it's a commodity, "the maximum possible" what does that even mean
10:45 < kanzure> MAXIMUM SCIENCE
10:47 < kanzure> "in his paper Science, Technology and Government, Rothbard references a study by Jewkes et al that took 61 of the most important inventions of the first half of the twentieth century and found that over half of those were achieved by individual scientists at their own expense.[6]"
10:47 < fenn> "the entrepreneur works as a coordinator, guiding resources in their correct uses and making decisions about how scientific research should be carried out" is exactly the situation they're trying to prevent with government-funded science
10:48 < kanzure> arguably, basic research would occur if there was no market distortion making the prices of doing basic research so ridiculous
10:48 < fenn> i agree
10:48 < kanzure> given the potential gains of basic research, it would be foolish not to allocat eeven tiny fractions of percents of budgets to it, which is of course impossible because those fractions aren't enough given the high prices of literally everything related to doing anything useful
10:49 < kanzure> although this is not solely the fault of grant-granting bodies
10:49 < fenn> it would be foolish, but stupid capitalists still skimp on everything
10:49 < fenn> "oh look we can save 3 cents by removing this fuse"  building burns down
10:49 < kanzure> oh, well that's argued usually by saying something like "smart capitalists outcompete stupid capitalists over time"
10:50 < fenn> that doesn't seem to have happened
10:50 < kanzure> because market distortion
10:50 < kanzure> (probably)
10:50 < fenn> i blame stupid consumers
10:51 < kanzure> i wouldn't...
10:51 < fenn> whose fault is it that everything is crap then?
10:52 < kanzure> too broad
10:52 < fenn> that products are made to an exceedingly low quality on average
10:53 < kanzure> when you can't use prices to communicate that, what do you expect would happen
10:53 < fenn> uh.. the cost difference between an "ok" fork and a "crap" fork is orders of magnitude less than the price difference
10:53 < fenn> s/fork/product/
10:54 < fenn> ok whose fault is it that costs and prices aren't coupled
10:54 < kanzure> hmm.
10:55 < kanzure> i'm not sure if blame is supposed to work like this
10:55 < fenn> i'd glady pay 3% extra for enough plastic in everything so they wouldn't break during normal usage
10:55 < kanzure> but, i could probably spout out some nonsense about regulatory barriers to entry?
10:56 < fenn> if you consider safeway a "regulator"
10:56 < fenn> it's actually pretty hard to get a product on store shelves
10:57 < fenn> damn near impossible for generic things
10:59 < fenn> you're probably thinking "who buys from brick and mortar stores"
11:00 < kanzure> no, i'm thinking "damn i'd hate to fork over 80% to walmart"
11:01 < kanzure> http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Malinvestment
11:02 < fenn> i'm optimistic about the "amazon basics" product line, but it's limited to a certain "young executive" market segment
11:03 < fenn> hm executive is the wrong word
11:03 < fenn> whoever needs paper shredders and bluetooth headsets
11:03 < kanzure> "As Robert Murphy explains, free individuals often make mistakes — even systematic mistakes. But even perfectly rational entrepreneurs who know a boom is underway cannot prevent their more reckless competitors from taking cheap (or now free) government loans and bidding away scarce resources. Workers don't care whether their paychecks come from genuine saving or from the printing press, and every few years there is always a fresh crop of ...
11:03 < kanzure> ... naïve employers willing to borrow money and start new projects."
11:03 < kanzure> "Second, Austrians emphasize that interest rates communicate information to entrepreneurs. In some critiques it seems that "everybody knows" that the true interest rate ought to be 5 percent, and so the central bank's efforts to push it down to 3 percent should be easily corrected. Yet nobody knows what the truly free-market interest rate is. That's why market prices are important in the first place, and why government distortions of these ...
11:03 < kanzure> ... prices lead to real imbalances in the economy.[34]"
11:03 < kanzure> hmm "Entrepreneurs don't need to speculate about a change in consumers’ "rate of time preference", or about the "supply of capital goods". An individual entrepreneur is concerned only with a very small set of market prices, namely, the prices of the inputs she will need for her projects, and the prices for which these products will sell. That’s the whole point of relying on the market rates of interest and other prices — it eliminates ...
11:03 < kanzure> ... the need for individuals to speculate about aggregates that are far too complex for any single mind to comprehend."
11:04 < kanzure> "Also, some expositions of ABCT assume an initial free market state, and then analyze the impact of a one-shot intervention. But in reality the government of each major country intervene permanently in the credit market by the creation of a central bank (or a centralized system of banks). Actors in these economies have no idea what the free market rate of interest would be in the absence of such interference; even if the rates were raised, ...
11:04 < kanzure> ... the new rate could still be below the "natural rate".[35] More generally, Reinhart and Rogoff speak about the "this time is different syndrome" while analyzing centuries of financial crises. Financial professionals and, all too often, government leaders explain that we are doing things better than before, we are smarter, and we have learned from past mistakes. Each time, society convinces itself that the current boom, unlike the many ...
11:04 < kanzure> ... booms that preceded catastrophic collapses in the past, is built on solid fundamentals, structural reforms, technological innovation, and good policy.[36]"
11:04 < fenn> spammer
11:06 < kanzure> but it answers your question
11:06 < kanzure> although i don't know if i agree completely that central banks are the culprit
11:06 < kanzure> because regulations also exist and are not caused by central banks... which do create distortions on prices and costs...
11:06 < fenn> i don't think central banks have anything to do with a) private investment in science, or b) crap chinese products with not enough plastic in them to not break
11:07 < kanzure> well, i was earlier making an analogy based on grants
11:07 < kanzure> private investment would probably happen if science and science-related results were cheaper
11:08 < fenn> what countries don't have central banks?
11:08 < fenn> or does that not matter because they can just borrow from a central bank anyway
11:09 < kanzure> suppose that most interesting science-related results were known-possible, but they all had a very high cost, like $1B each. i would expect less investors to swing for those results.
11:10 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_central_banks#Countries_without_central_banks
11:10 < kanzure> monaco, kiribati, tuvalu, palau, marshall islands, federated states of micronesia
11:10 < fenn> no, what makes science different is you don't know anything
11:10 < fenn> heh those are all tax havens
11:11 < fenn> and/or islands rapidly sinking under the seas
11:11 < kanzure> so, a lot of basic research is not so basic
11:11 < kanzure> for example, a lot of molecular biology is repetition
11:11 < kanzure> and those repetitions have known input costs
11:11 < kanzure> like reagents
11:12 < kanzure> so you do know those costs... and not know nothing.
11:12 < fenn> ok so the human genome project, what does it cost?
11:12 < fenn> 1B? 1M? 1k?
11:12 < nmz787> that's over, so you can look it up
11:12 < kanzure> venter raised at least $300M in venture capital for his side of it
11:12 < nmz787> wreckless!=reckless... true story
11:13 < fenn> "the project ended up costing less than expected, about $2.7 billion in FY 1991"
11:13 < kanzure> "In 1990, Congress established funding for the Human Genome Project and set a target completion date of 2005. Although estimates suggested that the project would cost a total of $3 billion over this period, the project ended up costing less than expected, about $2.7 billion in FY 1991 dollars."
11:13 < kanzure> (and venter did it for way less, etc.)
11:13 < kanzure> (well, i mean, the things he did ended up costing less. but probably because he was using ncbi data.)
11:13 < kanzure> (and also not funding 1000 labs)
11:14 < fenn> it cost less because he used a more efficient technology
11:14 < fenn> he did shotgun sequencing instead of sequential reads
11:14 < fenn> you probably don't even know what sequential reads are
11:14 < fenn> because nobody uses them anymore
11:15 < kanzure> sanger?
11:15 < fenn> yeah
11:15 < kanzure> er, that's like the one method i know cold
11:15 < fenn> anyway i'm not sure HGP is really science
11:15 < kanzure> it's one of the main reasons ParahSailin is so disappointed in me
11:17 < kanzure> human genome project probably sounded a lot like "basic research" at the time
11:18 < fenn> it was a "flagship project"
11:19 < kanzure> oh so now if a basic research project is really huge it's no longer basic research?
11:19 < kanzure> particle colliders?
11:19 < fenn> yeah, pretty much
11:20 < bbrittain> more like if you can sell it well, it's no longer basic research
11:20 < fenn> i mean just to get everyone on board you have to practically know the answer
11:20 < fenn> then proving it is just a formality
11:20 < bbrittain> 'cause it's for the childern
11:20 < fenn> the HGP actually collected a lot of useful data though
11:23 < kanzure> regarding those countries, the lack of a central bank isn't enough, or something
11:23 < kanzure> i was hesitant to say yes or no to your borrow question
11:23 < fenn> they have basically no economy or resources
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11:23 < kanzure> i mean if you are using currencies that are controlled by a central bank, shit happens
11:24 < kanzure> this is partly why gold bugs are gold bugs, but you already know my concerns around paper gold
11:26 < kanzure> i really can't think of "basic research" or "fundamental research" that really shouldn't be funded by private investment
11:27 < bbrittain> no, neither can I
11:28 < fenn> my concerns with that revolve around access to data and overly broad and restrictive patents
11:28 < bbrittain> but I'm an anarchist, so ignore me
11:28 < fenn> but we already have this problem with government-funded science :(
11:29 < kanzure> "the natural failure rate of science investment was so high that nobody wants to touch it" is ridiculous because it's basically saying "investment is bad"
11:30 < kanzure> also i don't remember if i captured the sentiment correctly but this guy was strongly in favor of demonstrating deliberate directed/coordinated science research:
11:30 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/open-science-summit-2010/scott-johnson-myelin-repair-foundation/
11:30 < fenn> it's hard to fully exploit the value generated by science because people can't keep secrets
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11:30 < fenn> demonstrating what?
11:31 < kanzure> "The reason why we show these circles.. is that basic science is pretty random. There's no research plan. No disease organization actually has a research plan. They put out a request for proposals, they peer review those, and those that get the highest ratings, that's what gets funded. Most academics would say that it should be random, since you can't know where they are going. Well, in some cases you want to be outcome directed"
11:31 < kanzure> it's not about secrecy -_-
11:32 < fenn> that's the whole point of basic research, it isn't planned
11:32 < fenn> if you knew what it was good for it wouldn't be beasic research
11:32 < kanzure> that doesn't mean "do random shit"
11:32 < fenn> yes it does
11:32 < fenn> the problem is we aren't sufficiently random
11:33  * bbrittain 's world doesn't have patents
11:33 < bbrittain> I would actually argue that these are all social issues and not something that you can fix with legislation
11:33 < bbrittain> and that as costs continue to fall in the sciences, hopefully we will see grass-roots movements that create a cultural shift
11:33 < bbrittain> new blood and whatnot
11:33 < kanzure> " Also, by being the first person to make the discovery he gets to be the first person to profit from this discovery as it takes time for someone who scooped the idea to get to a point where he can produce something useful from it. However, even if we excluded this first mover advantage and assumed that replication of this person’s discovery was instant upon publication, he still benefits from this system. This is because although he incurs ...
11:33 < kanzure> ... the risk of having his research scooped by someone else, he is more likely to in turn scoop someone else’s research as this free distribution system of science gives the scientist access to a greater pool of knowledge resources."
11:34 < fenn> bbrittain: as costs continue to fall? what???
11:34 < bbrittain> fenn: well, really depends on what branch of bio-science you are looking at
11:35 < bbrittain> certainly not human trials and stuff
11:35 < fenn> i guess you are talking about dremelfuges or microfluidics or something
11:35 < bbrittain> yea, even sequencing and synthesis
11:36 < bbrittain> those are approaching accesible
11:38 < fenn> the cost of a certain capability is falling, but average cost per scientific breakthrough continues to be high
11:38 < fenn> and some things are getting more expensive, like animal research
11:39 < fenn> reagents seem ridiculously expensive to me, but maybe it was always that way
11:40 < kanzure> i suspect that reagents used to be cheaper but that their prices have at minimum tracked inflation if not increased even faster
11:40 < fenn> i think it's just the usual "somebody else's money" mindset
11:41 < kanzure> "breakthrough"
11:41 < fenn> aka real scientific contribution, not just data collection
11:41 < kanzure> er..
11:41 < kanzure> you'll have to be more specific please
11:41 < fenn> don't tell me you're one of those "everything's just a pile of data" pedants
11:42 < kanzure> i think there are possible businesses even for particle accelerators and particle accelerator research
11:42 < fenn> sure, but nobody would have thought of them without the particle accelerator research telling them it was possible
11:42 < kanzure> but that those businesses are extremely hard to figure out as long as doing-anything costs remain high
11:42 < kanzure> no i don't mean that
11:43 < kanzure> i mean quite literally i think that businesses would operate particle accelerators on their own even without knowing "business use x of weird particle y"
11:43 < fenn> nobody in the cancer treatment field would have said "gee what happens if i build a cyclotron and inject antimatter into peoples' brains"
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11:44 < kanzure> i think they would have
11:44 < fenn> bulshit
11:44 < kanzure> "how do we kill cancer? well how do we kill anything at all? let's look at the list of things that kills cells and speculate about other ways of killing them"
11:45 < fenn> where do particle accelerators come into that?
11:45 < fenn> there are much easier ways to generate radioactive compounds
11:46 < kanzure> well anyway, this fits the pattern of "business use x of weird particle y" which i already said no to
11:47 < superkuh> Do you mean situations like electron beams for industrial food sterilization?
11:47 < kanzure> well, that's still an output, although a cool one
11:47 < fenn> also orders of magnitude too low energy
11:48 < fenn> so who would build a particle accelerator and why?
11:49 < fenn> how would they pay for it?
11:50 < kanzure> i just mean that i believe that entrepreneurs, given cheap enough resources, would be interested in building particle accelerators
11:52 < kanzure> the whole idea expressed earlier was that there are certain individuals who are better at speculating about the future and profit/loss, and some of those would be able to correctly account for the benefits of building things that might have no immediate application
11:52 < kanzure> grants/governments are not the only entities capable of this mode of thought -_-
11:52 < nmz787> i thought this was spurred by the pocket calculator comment
11:52 < kanzure> wasn't that yesterday
11:53 < nmz787> (and it would be pretty damn hard for unorganized people amidst chaotic 'normals' to get semiconductor tech back online before the 'normals' raided their lab for food or shelter)
11:53 < kanzure> nonsense
11:54 < kanzure> there's enough empty office space as is to house everyone
11:54 < kanzure> more than enough empty office space
11:54 < nmz787> you sir, do not know enough normal people
11:54 < nmz787> go back to walmart some more
11:54 < fenn> i mentioned some nature article about grant funding because of a comment about the UC berkeley tuition protests on another channel
11:54 < kanzure> "In april 2011 costar estimated over 17 billion square feet of retail real estate and 84 billion square feet of total commercial real estate in the US"
11:55 < kanzure> well okay, maybe not enough room for /everyone
11:55 < kanzure> /
11:55 < nmz787> if anything the only chance would be under the protection of some warlord mafioso that comes to power after tons of successful raiding and pillaging
11:55 < fenn> a 10ft x 10ft room for everyone!
11:56 < kanzure> oh that was not global
11:56 < kanzure> "14 sq ft per person? fuck that" but i see now
11:56 < fenn> 60-280 sq.ft per person
11:56 < nmz787> unless we all take up arms now to keep this apocalypse from being able to happen
11:57 < nmz787> really get the NRA spirit cookin in here
11:57 < kanzure> anyway, that's a lot of space
11:57 < kanzure> and a bunch of people co-habitate already, anyway
11:57 < nmz787> 'come see my guns collection'  'pistols, rifles, NO2 nanopartcile sprayers'
11:57 < fenn> hard to show off your retail space if it's being squatted by hippies
11:58 < kanzure> hippies, or associates?
11:58 < nmz787> hmm, now I wonder what would the best existing gun design be to modify into a gene gun
11:58  * nmz787 looks for rudigers documents
11:59 < fenn> nmz you just dropped the signal to near zero
11:59 < nmz787> hmm?
11:59 < fenn> why are we talking about hollywood doomsday survivalist scenarios?
11:59 < nmz787> kanzure: do we have a copy online somewhere?
11:59 < nmz787> some comment yesterday that he disagrees with
12:00 < nmz787> he thinks czochralski process would be a piece of cake or something
12:00 < fenn> the apollo guidance system was a lot more than a pocket calculator
12:00 < kanzure> "technology is hopeless don't try"
12:01 < nmz787> although apparently the japanese did some czochralski stuff with a bucket of water that had a dripping leak, which dripped into a collection bucket on a lever
12:01 < nmz787> and that lever was pulling up on the seed crystal
12:02 < fenn> go rosie go! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Silicon_grown_by_Czochralski_process_1956.jpg
12:02 < nmz787> (the tank bucket had a toilet float valve in it to keep the head pressure consistent)
12:02 < fenn> why is she shooting a ray gun at it
12:03 < nmz787> temp probe
12:03 < fenn> it's just weird that you'd have to hold it
12:03 < nmz787> "The Bridgman method is a popular way of producing certain semiconductor crystals such as gallium arsenide, for which the Czochralski process is more difficult."
12:03 < nmz787> .wik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgman%E2%80%93Stockbarger_technique
12:03 < yoleaux> "The Bridgman–Stockbarger technique is named after Harvard physicist Percy Williams Bridgman (note the spelling) and MIT physicist Donald C. Stockbarger (1895–1952). They are two similar methods primarily used for growing single crystal ingots (boules), but which can be used for solidifying polycrystalline ingots as well." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgman%E2%80%93Stockbarger_technique
12:04 < fenn> i don't think growing crystals is all that hard
12:04 < fenn> you need a motive to do so first
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12:04 < kanzure> what was the reason for going straight to crystals anyway?
12:04 < nmz787> and also .wik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro-pulling-down
12:04 < fenn> silicon ingots don't defend against pillaging hordes
12:05 < nmz787> .wik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro-pulling-down
12:05 < yoleaux> "The micro-pulling-down (µ-PD) method is a crystal growth technique based on continuous transport of the melted substance through micro-channel(s) made in a crucible bottom." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro-pulling-down
12:05 < nmz787> you need to do one of those to get your pocket calculator
12:05 < fenn> because nmz787 is doing the old "build a laptop in caesar's rome" thought experiment
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12:05 < kanzure> i don't understand why he's doing that
12:06 < kanzure> we already established that librarian was a moron
12:06 < fenn> nevermind that microchips are probably more common now than sand deposits
12:08 < nmz787> kanzure: that was your opinion and I was agreeing a bit with the librarian that it isn't something to brush off
12:08 < nmz787> that's all
12:09 < kanzure> http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2014/11/20/techstars-graduates-success-rates-what-the-numbers-show/
12:09 < kanzure> you don't even need crystals to make circuits
12:10 < nmz787> you need them for diodes
12:10 < nmz787> one form of crystal or another
12:10 < nmz787> http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2014/11/20/techstars-graduates-success-rates-what-the-numbers-show/
12:10 < nmz787> sorry
12:10 < fenn> is that true? how do screen-printed transistors work then?
12:11 < nmz787> a transistor isn't a diode
12:11 < fenn> it's two diodes :P
12:11 < nmz787> ?
12:12 < fenn> a semiconductor diode is usually a PN junction, and a transistor is a PNP junction sandwich
12:12 < fenn> or NPN or whatever
12:12 < fenn> you can use the three electrodes as if they were two diodes
12:13 < nmz787> are the screen printed transistors NPN?
12:13 < nmz787> or some type of FET?
12:14 < fenn> they are talking about FET in this article
12:14 < nmz787> I guess there are also vacuum tube diodes
12:14 < fenn> i've also seen FET-based diodes ("low dropout voltage")
12:15 < nmz787> wouldn't that be more related to pulsing them on/off though?
12:15 < fenn> yes but the effect is the same
12:16 < fenn> even regular diodes have hysteresis
12:16 < nmz787> oh, this was also connected to the 'etch instructions on how to make a DVD drive, to then read your post-apocalypse rebuilding-society DVD'
12:17 < fenn> in the distant future of hello kitty, feral tribes of mutated orphan children will trade instructions on how to rebuild civilization
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12:19 < fenn> protect the seed http://lh5.ggpht.com/_kMzxrQXhcbk/Sj4iRAXujoI/AAAAAAAAAGM/hCt3Po_CMq4/s1600-h/HelloKittyMarines%5B11%5D.jpg
12:20 < nmz787> I will throw those into my bonfires early on
12:20 < fenn> you sir, are worse than the spanish inquisition
12:21 < nmz787> the only hello-kitty in my house is a pair of second-hand pajama pants that a family member gave my gf
12:21 < nmz787> or maybe we bought them at a goodwill
12:22 < nmz787> that's right, she got justin bieber pajamas from someone who's daughter grew out of them
12:22 < fenn> TMI
12:23 < nmz787> :P
12:23 < fenn> how are polycrystalline solar panels not diodes?
12:23 < nmz787> just letting you know my stance on hello kitty
12:23 < nmz787> they would be
12:23 < nmz787> but they're also crystalline
12:24 < nmz787> it looks like even the screen printed transistors exhibit crystal-interface behaviou
12:24 < nmz787> behaviour
12:24 < fenn> so the only thing you'll accept as "non-crystal" is a single molecule? or a cloud of plasma?
12:25 < nmz787> well, the principle is still difficult
12:25 < fenn> oops i meant "amorphous silicon" not polycrystalline
12:25 < nmz787> it is quite a step up from a herbal poultice
12:26 < nmz787> 'grind up this crap that smells good'
12:26 < fenn> yeah you need a lot of other stuff before a transistor becomes even remotely useful
12:27 < fenn> wires, electricity, actuators/output devices
12:28 < fenn> the transistor radio is probably the lowest tech device involving a transistor
12:28 < fenn> maybe an LED flashlight qualifies
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12:29 < nmz787> that would indeed be useful
12:30 < kanzure> “There is a certain amount of elitism [in the internet community] that I'm not sure people are even aware of, that people around the world can afford to buy a 56k modem and pay $30 for one hour of internet, therefore the internet being so expensive has no future. If I want information, I could just go to my local library for free "
12:31 < fenn> i've seen some electroluminescent driver circuits that used only reed relays
12:32 < fenn> the chemistry is pretty simple, zinc sulfide on a conductor
12:32 < fenn> you could plausibly stack 90 batteries in series instead of trying to build a step-up transformer
12:33 < fenn> kanzure what decade was that quote from?
12:35 < kanzure> 5 hours ago
12:35 < fenn> i dont understand what they are saying then
12:36 < fenn> the internet obviously has a future
12:36 < kanzure> it was a reply to "There is a certain amount of elitism [in the Bitcoin community] that I'm not sure people are even aware of, that people around the world can afford to have money in a currency."
12:39 < fenn> "the Apollo guidance computer, which used a Sylvania electroluminescent display panel as part of its display-keyboard interface"
12:40 < fenn> i figured it used light bulbs
12:41 < fenn> oh the seven segment displays
12:41 < kanzure> what made it sylvanian?
12:43 < fenn> Sylvania was the company that manufactured it
12:44 < kanzure> alright
12:44 < fenn> presumably they knew a lot about phosphors from manufacturing fluorescent (actually phosphorescent) light bulbs
12:55 < kanzure> for "investors should never invest in basic research" to be true, it would also have to be true for anyone else's time and attention
12:56 < fenn> never is a pretty strong word
12:56 < kanzure> *everyone else's
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13:47 < TMA> paperbot: http://www.envplan.com/epd/fulltext/d29/d0510.pdf
13:51 < TMA> paperbot: http://envplan.com/abstract.cgi?id=d0510
13:51 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1068%2Fd0510
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14:01 < fenn> dirty dirty bees https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Bees_Collecting_Pollen_2004-08-14.jpg
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14:05 < TMA> I am more after the bureaucrats and parasites; bees are dirty -- but it's a clean dirt
14:05 < fenn> TMA http://fennetic.net/irc/damn_dirty_bees.pdf
14:06 < fenn> paperbot is confused at the moment
14:06 < TMA> thanks. I have managed to get it through http://libgen.org/scimag/
14:07 < TMA> not through the paperbot's link, though
14:07 < fenn> oh, i always wondered if that actually worked in other countries
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14:10 < TMA> i got it through http://www.envplan.com.sci-hub.org/abstract.cgi?id=d0510 and then http://www.envplan.com.sci-hub.org/epd/fulltext/d29/d0510.pdf [with a russian header -- Vremennaya ssylka dlya skachivaniya stat'i sci-hub.org/downloads/006a/10.0000@www.envplan.com@generic-078F39FED12D.pdf propustit' i otkryt' zanovo --->
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14:11 < TMA> Tovarysch! Vstupay v nashi ryady: vk.com/sci_hub
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14:11 < fenn> heh
14:12 < TMA> which [apart from the last part "Comrade! Join our ranks: vk.com/sci_hub"] is somewhat unintellegible to me
14:13 < TMA> one semester of russian some ten years ago is not enough :)
14:15 < TMA> until now, I have been able to circumvent the paywall just by clever google queries
14:15 < TMA> fenn: paperbot was definitely helpful, even if he were not, if you follow me
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16:07 < kanzure> the scihub person has always been grumpy about no donations
16:22 < kanzure> blocking entire countries due to lack of donations, etc.
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16:42 < nmz787> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoRVEw5gL8c
16:42 < yoleaux> Viewing an active electronic circuit with a scanning electron microscope - YouTube
16:42 < nmz787> Ben Krasnow with his DIY SEM
16:44 < kanzure> ["person:ben krasnow", laserlab, carbon, farmer friend, ]
16:47 < kanzure> fenn: this is a stupid chart idea, right? http://i.imgur.com/G50d13q.png
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17:31 < fenn> there are too many bins
17:31 < fenn> and MBTC is ambiguous (actually just wrong)
17:32 < kanzure> yes it is morally wrong to write it as "MBTC" in this context
17:32 < kanzure> and for this reason alone he should be banned from the internet
17:32 < kanzure> but i think the graph type is just wrong anyway?
17:33 < fenn> it's not very enlightening
17:33 < fenn> like what are those sudden transitions
17:34 < kanzure> those are transactions from single addresses to multiple addresses, or multiple addresses to single addresses
17:34 < fenn> what happened in december 2011
17:34 < fenn> someone split up their hoard into 1k wallets?
17:35 < kanzure> 2011-12-12 "Largest amount of fees, to-date, in a single transaction, and most fees in a single block. A transaction paid 171 BTC in fees in block 157235[12]."
17:35 < kanzure> http://webbtc.com/tx/1d7749c65c90c32f5e2c036217a2574f3f4403da39174626b246eefa620b58d9
17:35 < kanzure> although that's not enough
17:36 < kanzure> "First European Bitcoin Conference in Prague, Czech Rep"
17:37 < kanzure> "First CVE (CVE-2011-4447) assigned to a Bitcoin client exploit."
17:37 < kanzure> "Tribute to Len Sassaman included in the blockchain[9]."
17:37 < kanzure> "The MtGox database was compromised and the user table was leaked, containing details of 60,000 usernames, email addresses and password hashes, some of which were overly simple to brute force passwords."
17:37 < kanzure> "Someone was able to access an admin account at MtGox and issue sell orders for hundreds of thousands of fake bitcoins, forcing the MtGox price down from $17.51 per bitcoin to $0.01. MtGox announced that these trades would be reversed. Trading was halted at MtGox for 7 days (and also briefly at TradeHill and Britcoin while their security was reviewed)."
17:37 < kanzure> beautiful
17:37 < kanzure> i remember that password leak
17:38 < fenn> that was late 2011?
17:38 < kanzure> mid-2011
17:39 < fenn> well there's a spike there too
17:39 < kanzure> hmm wasn't silk road either.
17:39 < kanzure> " It noted that, "From February 6, 2011 to July 23, 2013 there were approximately 1,229,465 transactions completed on the site. The total revenue generated from these sales was 9,519,664 Bitcoins, and the total commissions collected by Silk Road from the sales amounted to 614,305 Bitcoins. These figures are equivalent to roughly $1.2 billion in revenue and $79.8 million in commissions, at current Bitcoin exchange rates...", according to the ...
17:40 < kanzure> ... September 2013 complaint, and involved 146,946 buyers and 3,877 vendors.[9] Ac"
17:42 < fenn> this graph mostly says to me, "people wise up and move their bitcoins out of a single wallet"
17:43 < kanzure> raw data would have been more helpful
17:43 < kanzure> but yeah i think that's probably true
17:44 < fenn> so nothing worth mentioning happened after april 1 2013
17:45 < fenn> according to this wiki at least
17:46 < kanzure> i get the feeling the wiki hasn't been updated in a while
17:47 < kanzure> this was an excellent timeline of silk road things http://antilop.cc/sr/
17:48 < fenn> wow i thought silk road had been around for longer than that
17:49 < fenn> people were all "thanks for ruining it gawker" as if it had been around for years
17:49 < fenn> apparently it was only 6 months?
17:50 < fenn> this is a much more interesting timeline btw
17:54 < kanzure> you may also be interested in http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/2014-04-24-blackmarkettable-draft.html
17:54 < kanzure> (i think this file is from gwern)
17:55 < fenn> looks like his style
17:59 < Qfwfq> Yeah, that reads like 'gwern'. Also the stylesheet reference:
17:59 < Qfwfq>   <link rel="stylesheet" href="/home/gwern/wiki/static/css/default.css" type="text/css" />
17:59 < Qfwfq> :D:D:D
17:59 < superkuh> Bismuth is the future of technology.
18:00 < fenn> superkuh fusion or just technology in general
18:01 < superkuh> Bismuth-Bismuth picostructures based on controlling oxidation state.
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18:02 < fenn> i definitely have no idea what that is
18:06 < fenn> i only see one group even talking about "picostructures" including V Valvoda, AJ Perry, D Rafaja in the early 1990s, and WJ MoberlyChan in 2000's
18:07 < superkuh> A lot of it doesn't talk about picostructures explicitly, but they are. Most research is relating to bismuth halides and manipulating bond angles with precision.
18:07 < superkuh> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/zaac.19926120120/abstract
18:11 < superkuh> Lots of stuff on bismuth wires, tubes, sheets, monolayers, islands, and even just single bismuth ions being awesome. Depending on the oxidation state of the bismuth-bismuth bonds they can be topologically insulating, superconducting, thermoelectric, etc.
18:12 < fenn> that happens for carbon too, right?
18:14 < superkuh> But carbon isn't a metal and it doesn't have the 5(!) oxidation states.
18:18 < nmz787> kanzure: what about heekscad? it seems to be using wxPython for the GUI so I could drop it in as a tab of my existing FIB GUI
18:18 < nmz787> or a microfluidics-based CAD tool
18:19 < nmz787> one tab for setting up your circuit, another that shows the resultant fed into CAD
18:19 < kanzure> i think that svg is an ideal option for microfluidics at the moment
18:19 < nmz787> s/resultant/resulting/
18:19 < kanzure> heekscad is a gui on top of opencascade so it crashes whenever opencascade has a bug just like all the other open source cad tools that use opencascade
18:19 < fenn> superkuh: this is too far from my experience to have any intuition at all, but i'll mention to my dad who's into computational materials science
18:20 < nmz787> I need something to draw shapes with though, so if I can throw in a CAD program rather than just some a shapes canvas thing
18:20 < nmz787> that might be nice
18:21 < nmz787> sage seems nice for doing math, but it is huge and doesn't act like a library
18:21 < nmz787> (i could for example use that to give me points of some math equation to draw as an SVG)
18:22 < fenn> seconding inkscape
18:22 < kanzure> tallakahath and genehacker are our resident computational materials/chemistry people
18:23 < nmz787> fenn: there's this https://github.com/wxWidgets/wxPython/blob/master/samples/pySketch/pySketch.py
18:23 < kanzure> what is it with you and guis
18:24 < kanzure> always with you running before you can crawl...
18:24 < nmz787> ?
18:24 < nmz787> I like to see things to make sure the code is right
18:25 < nmz787> oh, I guess gimp has python scripting
18:25 < fenn> how about inkscape
18:26 < nmz787> seems to have some python interface
18:27 < fenn> svg is pretty easy to dump out from cairo, and provides a reasonable drawing API
18:28 < fenn> cairo is now the standard rendering engine for gtk so there are sure to be more examples than is helpful
18:37 < kanzure> http://opendata.cern.ch/
18:37 < kanzure> http://opendata.cern.ch/visualise/events/CMS
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18:45 < kanzure> genehacker: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/zaac.19926120120/abstract
18:48 < kanzure> "Secondary building units, nets and bonding in the chemistry of metal-organic frameworks" http://authors.library.caltech.edu/38677/1/b817735j.pdf
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19:10 < kanzure> "Size-controlled synthesis and morphology evolution of bismuth trifluoride nanocrystals via a novel solvent extraction route" http://wls.iphy.ac.cn/nianbao/upload/4_paper/Nanoscale5(2013)518-A01.pdf
19:24 < kanzure> "The recent discovery of fuel-free propulsion of nanomotors using acoustic energy has..." hmm.
19:26 < kanzure> "Acoustic propulsion of nanorod motors inside living cells" http://esm.psu.edu/wiki/_media/research:juh17:wang_w_angewandte_2014.pdf
19:29 < genehacker> sbu's paper is pretty cool
19:30 < kanzure> hm?
19:32 < genehacker> secondary building units
19:34 < kragen> svg is, much to my surprise, the nicest drawing API of all
19:34 < kragen> I mean it's hard to beat PostScript but SVG did it'
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19:51 < kanzure> kragen: seems like you are the sort of person who would have opinions to make publicly known over here about this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8646605
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20:15 < Lemminkainen> paperbot http://www.nature.com/nchem/journal/v6/n12/full/nchem.2099.html
20:15 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnchem.2099
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20:28 < kanzure> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja403994u "Herein, we describe for the first time a one-step emulsion-based technique that permits the assembly of metal–organic framework (MOF) faceted polyhedral BBs (i.e., cubes instead of spheres) into 3D hollow superstructures (or “colloidosomes”). The shell of each resultant hollow MOF colloidosome is constructed from a monolayer of cubic BBs, whose dimensions can be precisely controlled by ...
20:28 < kanzure> ... varying the amount of emulsifier used in the synthesis."
20:30 < kanzure> i really don't see anyone using this for synthesizing arbitrary nanoscale geometries
20:30 < kanzure> and i'm not sure why
20:33 < kragen> kanzure: infobitts is trying to do something important and difficult, but I don't think they will succeed
20:34 < fenn> my favorite news story of all time http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/apr/12/news-is-bad-rolf-dobelli
20:38 < Qfwfq> fenn: oh, that's a delightful piece
20:42 < kanzure> terribly obvious and mundane
20:43 < fenn> news is bad mmkay
20:43 < fenn> this is your brain on news
20:43 < fenn> any questions?
20:44 < nmz787> ' Out of the ­10,000 news stories you may have read in the last 12 months'  i did not read nearly that many stories
20:45 < kanzure> 20-30 items per day is easy to hit
20:45 < kanzure> hacker news landing page is 30
20:45 < kanzure> if you check more than once per day....
20:46 < nmz787> ' In a 2001 study two scholars in Canada showed that comprehension declines as the number of hyperlinks in a document increases. '
20:46 < nmz787> http://www.wired.com/2010/05/ff_nicholas_carr/
20:46 < nmz787> .title
20:46 < yoleaux> Author Nicholas Carr: The Web Shatters Focus, Rewires Brains | WIRED
20:46 < nmz787> is that the same dude (at wired) someone in here was complaining about recently
20:47 < nmz787> ?
20:47 < fenn> "hacker news" at least contains a significant fraction of actionable information
20:47 < Qfwfq> kanzure: well yeah, the fun is that the guardian published it
20:47 < fenn> (assuming you're a hacker at least)
20:49 < fenn> have you watched TV news lately? OMG it's snowing in buffalo new york! the syrians are suffering! shooting on some street you've never heard of! football! basketball! children presented with an award!
20:50 < kanzure> who put you in front of a television
20:50 < kanzure> god damn war crimes right there
20:50 < fenn> why do you think i disappeared for a year
20:50 < kanzure> do they have a fenn operating license?
20:52 < nmz787> the buffalo snow was pretty impressive
20:52 < nmz787> it was so much less in nearby rochester though
20:52 < kanzure> :facepalm:
20:53 < nmz787> i was a little pissed that I wasn't still living there to go out and play
20:53 < kanzure> is your irc subtlety detector working
20:53 < kragen> hmm, http://tiny.cc/jngrpx shows that SVG is still quite a bit more verbose than PostScript when you use it without a programming language
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20:54 < kragen> but the overhead isn't actually all that bad
20:55 < kragen> gsave grestore is actually no less verbose than <g transform=""></g>
20:55 < kragen> and in many cases it's adequate to just say transform="" on an element
20:56 < kragen> I think SVG's more readable though
20:56 < kragen> and basic drawing things like moveto, lineto, rmoveto, and setrgbcolor are actually shorter in SVG.  not to mention that it's easier to see what they apply to
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21:44 < Lemminkainen> paperbot http://www.nature.com/clpt/journal/v87/n3/full/clpt2009295a.html
21:44 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fclpt.2009.295
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22:43 < heath> .commands
22:43 < yoleaux> Commands are divided into categories: services, general, api, demos, admin. Use .commands <category> to get a list of the commands in each.
22:43 < heath> .commands general
22:43 < yoleaux> Commands in general: ask, at, botsnack, buck, bytes, choose, in, msg, on, pick, ping, seen, supercombiner, t, tell, to, tz. Use .help to get information about them.
22:43 < heath> .help
22:43 < yoleaux> heath: I'm yoleaux. Type .commands to see what I can do, or see http://dpk.io/yoleaux for a quick guide.
22:43 < heath> .help tell
22:43 < yoleaux> Relay a telegram to someone
22:44 < heath> .tell heath watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC9K21wz0CQ already
22:44 < yoleaux> heath: Talking to yourself is the first sign of madness.
22:44 < heath> .help remind
22:44 < yoleaux> heath: Sorry, no help is available for remind.
22:44 < heath> yoleaux: i hate you
22:45 < sheena> heath you ok?
22:45 < heath> sheena: yes
22:45 < sheena> :)
22:45 < heath> .title
22:45 < yoleaux> [FOSDEM 2013] How we made the Jenkins community - YouTube
22:46 < heath> the slides have been nice so far
22:46 < Qfwfq> .mangle Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.
22:46 < yoleaux> Qfwfq: Sorry, that command (.mangle) crashed.
22:46 < heath> .title http://www.aosabook.org/en/integration.html
22:46 < yoleaux> The Architecture of Open Source Applications: Continuous Integration
22:47 < heath> jenkins + pytest + tox is looking attractive
22:47  * heath has past experience with jenkins
22:48 < sheena> what are you building?
22:50 < heath> sheena: some bitcoin service that kanzure and friend thought up
22:50 < sheena> ah
22:50 < sheena> kanzure is asleep
22:50 < sheena> as usual
22:50 < heath> as i should be
22:51 < Lemminkainen> heath pls to explain sleep
22:53 < heath> Lemminkainen: i don't understand what you just said
22:53 < Lemminkainen> it's OK heath I'm quite drunk and don't understand what I asked myself
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23:28 < genehacker> sleep is for slackers
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23:33 < nmz787> .commands demos
23:33 < yoleaux> Commands in demos: crash, flood, wait, wait-crash. Use .help to get information about them.
23:33 < nmz787> .commands services
23:33 < yoleaux> Commands in services: acronym, add-command, botsmack, command-help, del-command, dety, distance, geo, insult, leo, moon, ngrams, nokiageo, o, oed, r2r, roll, rot13, shipping, suggest, swhack, thesaurus, tw, twho, weather, yi. Use .help to get information about them.
23:33 < nmz787> .help geo
23:33 < yoleaux> Look up a location in Googles's place names database
23:34 < nmz787> .geo tokyo
23:34 < yoleaux> nmz787: Tokyo, Japan at 35.689,139.692 to wit http://google.com/maps?q=35.689,139.692
23:34 < nmz787> .help moon
23:34 < yoleaux> Check the current phase of the moon
23:34 < nmz787> .help ngrams
23:34 < yoleaux> Compare the frequency of words/phrases in an n-grams database
23:34 < nmz787> .help swhack
23:34 < yoleaux> Search the last 30 days of Swhack logs
23:34 < nmz787> .help yi
23:34 < yoleaux> Is it yi yet?
23:34 < nmz787> .yi
23:34 < yoleaux> Not yet...
23:34 < nmz787> .yi 3223
23:34 < yoleaux> Not yet...
23:34 < nmz787> .yi gdgs
23:34 < yoleaux> Not yet...
23:34 < nmz787> .help tw
23:34 < yoleaux> See the weather somewhere, with forecast
23:35 < nmz787> .help o
23:35 < yoleaux> (Deprecated) Call a web-service command
23:35 < nmz787> .distance tokyo portland
23:35 < yoleaux> Usage: place1 ... place2
23:35 < nmz787> .distance tokyo ... portland
23:35 < yoleaux> nmz787: 7793.39 km linear distance between Tokyo, Japan ... Portland, OR, USA, see http://google.com/maps?q=to:tokyo+to:portland
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23:35 < nmz787> .distance portland .. gresham
23:35 < yoleaux> Usage: place1 ... place2
23:35 < nmz787> .distance portland ... gresham
23:35 < yoleaux> nmz787: 19.35 km linear distance between Portland, OR, USA ... Gresham, OR, USA, see http://google.com/maps?q=to:portland+to:gresham
23:40 < nmz787> .commands services
23:40 < yoleaux> Commands in services: acronym, add-command, botsmack, command-help, del-command, dety, distance, geo, insult, leo, moon, ngrams, nokiageo, o, oed, r2r, roll, rot13, shipping, suggest, swhack, thesaurus, tw, twho, weather, yi. Use .help to get information about them.
23:40 < nmz787> .commands api
23:40 < yoleaux> Commands in api: c, chars, d, decode, ety, g, gc, gcs, head, i-love-the-w3c, ietf, img, mangle, news, npl, py, rfc, title, tr, u, val, w, wa, wik. Use .help to get information about them.
23:40 < nmz787> .c
23:40 < yoleaux> Query Wolfram Alpha for a calculator result
23:40 < nmz787> .u
23:40 < yoleaux> Search for a Unicode character by codepoint, name, or raw character
23:40 < nmz787> .py
23:40 < yoleaux> Evaluate an expression in Python
23:40 < nmz787> .gc
23:40 < yoleaux> Count the number of Google results for a phrase
23:40 < nmz787> .gc spectrophotometer
23:40 < yoleaux> nmz787: Sorry, that command (.gc) crashed.
23:41 < nmz787> .gc spectrophotometer
23:41 < yoleaux> nmz787: Sorry, that command (.gc) crashed.
23:41 < nmz787> .decode
23:41 < yoleaux> Decode HTML entities
23:41 < nmz787> .py print sys.prefix
23:41 < yoleaux> /base/data/home/runtimes/python/python_dist
23:42 < nmz787> .py import subprocess; print subprocess.Popen('uname -u', stdout=subprocess.PIPE).communicate();
23:42 < yoleaux> AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'Popen'
23:42 < nmz787> .py import subprocess; print dir(subprocess)#.Popen('uname -u', stdout=subprocess.PIPE).communicate();
23:42 < yoleaux> ['__builtins__', '__doc__', '__file__', '__name__']
23:43 < nmz787> .py import subprocess; print subprocess.__dict__#.Popen('uname -u', stdout=subprocess.PIPE).communicate();
23:43 < yoleaux> {'__builtins__': {'IndexError': <type 'exceptions.IndexError'>, 'all': <built-in function all>, 'help': Type help() for interactive help, or help(object) for help about object., 'vars': <built-in function vars>, 'SyntaxError': <type 'exceptions.SyntaxError'>, 'unicode': <type 'unicode'>, 'UnicodeDecodeError': <type 'exceptions.UnicodeDecodeError'>, 'isinstance': <built-in function isinstance>, 'co
23:43 < nmz787> .py import subprocess; print subprocess.__doc__#.Popen('uname -u', stdout=subprocess.PIPE).communicate();
23:43 < yoleaux> None
23:43 < nmz787> .py import subprocess; print subprocess.__builtins__#.Popen('uname -u', stdout=subprocess.PIPE).communicate();
23:43 < yoleaux> {'IndexError': <type 'exceptions.IndexError'>, 'all': <built-in function all>, 'help': Type help() for interactive help, or help(object) for help about object., 'vars': <built-in function vars>, 'SyntaxError': <type 'exceptions.SyntaxError'>, 'unicode': <type 'unicode'>, 'UnicodeDecodeError': <type 'exceptions.UnicodeDecodeError'>, 'isinstance': <built-in function isinstance>, 'copyright': Copyrig
23:44 < nmz787> .py print 'sorry yoleaux'
23:44 < yoleaux> sorry yoleaux
23:44 < nmz787> .py p = '.py print'; print p
23:44 < yoleaux> .py print
23:44 < nmz787> .py p = '.py print p'; print p
23:44 < yoleaux> .py print p
23:45 < nmz787> .py p = '.py print 123'; print p
23:45 < yoleaux> .py print 123
23:45 < nmz787> .py print 123
23:45 < yoleaux> 123
23:46 < nmz787> .py print '.geo tokyo'
23:46 < yoleaux> .geo tokyo
23:46 < nmz787> .py print 'paperbot http://hello.com'
23:46 < yoleaux> paperbot http://hello.com
23:46 < nmz787> mwah hah hah
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23:55 < genehacker> whoa
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--- Log closed Sun Nov 23 00:00:59 2014