--- Log opened Mon Nov 24 00:00:00 2014
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00:28 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15652870
00:29 < paperbot> ConnectionError: HTTPConnectionPool(host='libgen.org', port=80): Max retries exceeded with url: /scimag/librarian/form.php (Caused by <class 'socket.error'>: [Errno 104] Connection reset by peer) (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/adapters.py", line 375, in send)
00:48 < ebowden> :(
00:49 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223%2810%2900497-X/pdf
00:50 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223%2810%2900497-X/abstract
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02:11 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8650952
02:11 < yoleaux> On Linux, 'less' can probably get you owned | Hacker News
02:12 < kanzure> pycnopodia helianthoides is dying?
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02:19 < sheena> .title http://www.leevalley.com/en/garden/page.aspx?c=&p=46784&cat=2,2120
02:19 < yoleaux> Sugar Tester (Brix Refractometer) - Lee Valley Tools
02:19 < sheena> thinking about trying to convert this to use for USG/SP
02:19 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223%2810%2900497-X/abstract
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02:23 < sheena> http://www.staples.ca/en/REED-MT-032-Refractometer-0-32-BRIX/product_992089_2-CA_1_20001 local one.. why staples??
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02:40 < genehacker> because staples sells office supplies
02:41 < genehacker> haven't you ever needed to homebrew inkjet ink?
02:41 < sheena> lol indeed
02:47 < chris_99> this may be of interest to some peeps https://www.anfractuosity.com/files/microfluidics/Product%20code_USD.pdf        - microfluidic slides that are around 33$ each
02:50 < genehacker> they're just mixers?
02:50 < chris_99> mainly yeah
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06:41 < kanzure> hello eudoxia
06:42 < eudoxia> hi
06:43 < kanzure> eudoxia: how much money do you estimate it would take to get cryonics working for a small mammal?
06:44 < eudoxia> kanzure: like a rat, or a dog?
06:44 < eudoxia> hm, i suppose i would look into the costs of Mike Darwin's dog perfusion experiments
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06:47 < kanzure> were those on his chromachronacryoblog?
06:47 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
06:47 < eudoxia> i think there was a brief description on his biography articles
06:48 < eudoxia> i think there was a copy of the paper, in HTML, on the alcor website
06:48 < kanzure> why dogs though? have rats been done?
06:48 < eudoxia> http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/tbwcanine.html
06:48 < JayDugger> At a guess, because of the history of perfusion experiments with dog.s.
06:48 < eudoxia> rats are pretty small
06:49 < eudoxia> you might have problems e.g. cannulating them
06:49 < JayDugger> Do cooling rates change much across dogs, rats, and humans?
06:49 < eudoxia> also, their brains are very small, so when evaluating the perfusion with a CAT scan you have a lower ratio of brain volume to the spatial resolution
06:49 < JayDugger> Ah.
06:50 < eudoxia> a larger dog brain gives you more, so to speak, room for error
06:50 < kanzure> well why not just go straight up to a whale?
06:50 < eudoxia> whale brains don't fit in portable CAT scanners ;>
06:50 < kanzure> https://anboswell.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/blue-whale-heart.jpg
06:51 < eudoxia> >A second set of dogs was treated with a simpler protocol, similar to the type used previously in cryonics and still favored by some cryonicists who prefer simpler, less costly perfusion. The period of perfusion was briefer, and the terminal concentration of glycerol was lower. Brain tissue from these animals showed much higher levels of damage.
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06:57 < eudoxia> kanzure: so what do you want to cryopreserve?
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06:57 < kanzure> eudoxia: humans, eventually
06:57 < kanzure> eudoxia: but it is cheaper to not use humans in tests
06:58 < eudoxia> hm eleitl has probably estimated the costs, since he was going to do tests with human cadavers
07:01 < kanzure> why would you start with humans??
07:02 < eudoxia> small mammals have been done before
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07:02 < kanzure> huh? i only remember a rabbit brain that didn't quite work after thawing.
07:02 < eudoxia> i guess he didn't want to reinvent the entire history of cryonics
07:02 < eudoxia> well those dogs survived extremely low temperature hypothermia
07:03 < kanzure> refs please?
07:03 < eudoxia> i don't know about the rabbit brain
07:03 < eudoxia> actually i think i vaguely remember that. was that an experiemtn done by CI?
07:03 < kanzure> may have been a cat brain
07:03 < kanzure> results were checked based on eeg activity
07:03 < eudoxia> oh, the Suda experiment
07:03 < kanzure> between 7-14 years of storage
07:04 < eudoxia> yeah, the scientist kept it for 7 years and it still had EEG activity
07:04 < eudoxia> that was in the sixties though
07:06 < eudoxia> anyways, what i mean is cryonicists have done a ton of experiments and Alcor's current perfusate is the result of all those
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07:08 < kanzure> maybe i just have unreasonable expectations
07:08 < kanzure> but
07:08 < kanzure> i would expect things like, once any protocol is figured out for small animals, to run 100s of animals through that protocol
07:09 < kanzure> and also try various numbers of years of storage as well
07:09 < kanzure> and things like "can the mouse researcher reliably pick out which mouse was frozen for a few years?"
07:10 < kanzure> and "do they respond to stimuli in the way that they were previously trained or confirmed to respond?"
07:10 < eudoxia> that would've been the case had cryonics been a part of mainstream science
07:10 < eudoxia> but cryonics is more like the AIDS underground: informal, ad-hoc, we do what we can
07:11 < kanzure> huh?
07:11 < kanzure> but why is that not in the set of "things that we can do"?
07:11 < eudoxia> the focus has been less on elementary research than on actually freezing people
07:11 < kanzure> it seems to be totally necessary and pretty cheap
07:11 < eudoxia> i agree
07:12 < kanzure> well how do you explain eleitl's plans then
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07:13 < eudoxia> a "best effort with what we know" thing rather than a scientific, thorough search for the ideal perfusion/cryopreservation setup
07:13 < kanzure> doesn't have to be ideal, just has to work
07:14 < kanzure> and work does not mean "yep it's cold"
07:16 < eudoxia> well i think the problem of ice-blocking solutions is essentially solved with M-22
07:16 < eudoxia> except for that whole thing where it doesn't reach into myelinated axons
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07:17 < eudoxia> the specific process of perfusion has evolved through trial-and-error, or at least that's what i got from Darwin's history of cryonics blog posts
07:17 < eudoxia> ie the first perfusions used veterinary cannulae in the neck and gycerol, that's not the case anymore
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07:18 < kanzure> how can it be trial-and-error without any results?
07:20 < kanzure> don't mind me, i'm just being grumpy
07:20 < eudoxia> in one of Darwin's history posts he discusses an evaluation where neuropatients are removed at CT-scanned while under liquid nitrogen
07:20 < eudoxia> there are pictures of the heads and everything
07:20 < kanzure> also, isn't it a little suspicious that alcor hasn't done these animal projects?
07:21 < Qfwfq> Done or published? ;-)
07:21 < kanzure> total costs of running animal attempts can get down pretty cheap i bet, like <$10/kg
07:21 < kanzure> they would have published/publicized them, plus max more would have told me anyway
07:22 < Qfwfq> An initial negative result would be a huge blow to them financially.
07:22 < kanzure> why's that? everyone already knows it's a negative result.
07:22 < Qfwfq> Because it reflects on in-use vitrification procedures.
07:22 < Qfwfq> I was thinking less 'revival' and more 'preservation'.
07:23 < Qfwfq> But yeah, I haven't studied this at all, ignore me,
07:23 < eudoxia> it would be pretty bad if it turned out, no matter what, brains completely shattered at the microscale
07:24 < kanzure> "no matter what" is a hard thing to show, so they're safe
07:24 < eudoxia> of course
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07:28 < kanzure> "> libnih is a small library for C application development containing functions that, despite its name, are not implemented elsewhere in the standard library set.
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07:41 < catern> yeah, right
07:41 < catern> just use glib canonical
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07:41 < catern> "But why not just use glib I hear you ask? Well, glib is a very large library whereas NIH is small and designed for low-level daemons and systems which may be resource-constrained."
07:41 < catern> "Other reasons to use NIH:
07:41 < catern> It handles garbage collection for you
07:41 < catern> That's right, you don't need to free memory manually."
07:42 < catern> does not compute
07:42 < kanzure> i am not sure how much of this is supposed to be "serious" versus "hint this whole thing is a joke because look at our name"
07:43 < kanzure> a lot of this looks like bullshitting to me: http://wiki.opencog.org/w/CogPrime_Overview#Key_Claims
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07:44 < kanzure> "To work toward adult human-level, roughly human-like general intelligence, one fairly easily comprehensible path is to use environments and goals reminiscent of human childhood, and seek to advance one’s AGI system along a path roughly comparable to that followed by human children."
07:44 < kanzure> dogs don't go through that at all and they come out okay
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07:50 < kanzure> i think that in general any agi plan will have to be based on something that is immune from the author having crazy or wrong theories of mind (often i see proposals based on really strange understandings of how the human brain works)
07:51 < kanzure> so it has to be written in such a way that those types of problems don't get into the plans
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08:07 < eudoxia> according to the opencog people by 2017 we'll have an AGI scientist
08:07 < eudoxia> lol :c
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08:09 < kanzure> more confusion about "diybio just means community labs" http://blogs.plos.org/citizensci/2014/11/24/synthetic-biology-diy-bio/ sigh
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09:21 < maaku> kanzure: agi authors don't have to have an accurate model of the human mind
09:21 < maaku> you just need a workable model. whether that model matches reality of the human brain is immaterial
09:25 < maaku> kanzure: regarding your earlier question, non-uploading WBE is equivalent to AGI because you are escaping the problem of "how do we make a human-level intelligence?"
09:25 < kanzure> escaping?
09:26 < maaku> if you want to cut corners and optimize a WBE, you need to know what it is doing so you know what things you can simplify or eliminate
09:26 < kanzure> and to you, non-uploading is cutting corners?
09:26 < maaku> essentially I'm reading your plan as "let's emulate portions of the human brain until we know what it does, and then optimize it"
09:26 < kanzure> i mean, to some extent typing in neuron parameters has to be considered "uploading" at least a little bit heh
09:28 < maaku> or put differently, "let's figure out how to make an artificial general intelligence by studing the only non-artificial general intelligence we know, then implement an optimized version"
09:28 < maaku> is that correct?
09:28 < kanzure> at the moment the blue brain project's strategy is quite literally "let's take 200 computational neuroscience phd postdoc people, read a bunch of papers and type up parameters for different portions of the emulation"
09:29 < kanzure> hmm, well i don't know about the optimization part- i mean, that should come later i think, and not an immediate primary focus of emulation
09:29 < kanzure> but yes
09:29 < maaku> right well I can't help but draw parallels to the 19th century engineers who tried to create flying machines with wings that flap
09:30 < maaku> it's a reasonable default position -- in absence of anything else, study the one example we have. but the trouble is evolution didn't give us something that is simple to understand, or easy to reduce
09:30 < maaku> but like flying machines, I expect that the first AGI will be built using theory divorced from biology
09:31 < maaku> and in my case I'm convinced we have enough of a framework to start
09:31 < kanzure> "the first agi will be built using theory divorced from agi"
09:31 < maaku> ?
09:33 < maaku> i don't understand what you're trying to say there
09:34 < kanzure> btw, i totally reject the "wah evolution did hard stuff" argument. yes it takes effort, so what.
09:36 < kanzure> flapping wings did work, you know.
09:42 < maaku> bah building a machine that flys by flapping wings is insanely difficult
09:42 < chris_99> just buy a pigeon it's far easier
09:44 < kanzure> yes it's difficult
09:44 < kanzure> most of them work for at least a few seconds
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09:45 < kanzure> anyway, is a kite a flying machine? matches a hawk, you know..
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09:54 < kragen> http://web.archive.org/web/19980515141315/http://hypernews.org/ it looks like HyperNews did predate Wiki, since it dates from 1994 at NCSA. but I don't think it supported editing existing "pages", just writing new messages
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10:00 < kragen> hmm, it did: http://web.archive.org/web/19961120083549/http://union.ncsa.uiuc.edu/HyperNews/get/hypernews/about.html
10:00 < kragen> " Rather, responses and base articles are maintained by whoever writes them in their own disk space, or responses may be stored on the server of the base article. Unlike news, articles and responses never expire (at least not now - that option will probably be added later) and they may be edited any time after being "posted"."
10:00 < kragen> presumably that means they were editable through its web interface, as opposed to, say, vi article323.txt
10:04 < kragen> it's sort of ambiguous though
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10:07 < kragen> this seems to be Mr. HyperNews: https://plus.google.com/+DanielLaLiberte/about
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11:13 < nmz787_i> do we have math people in here?
11:13 < kanzure> sort of...
11:15 < nmz787_i> just IMed this in ##math: hi! I am wondering about Partial Differential Equations, and how to apply them to find a solution to a set of arcs... where the only constraint is that the arcs cannot cross/intersect
11:16 < nmz787_i> basically I learned last week how to integrate to find the arc length, but I am interested in finding the arc equation
11:16 < nickjohnson> Hooray! Launched the fan kit! www.arachnidlabs.com/reload-pro/fan-kit.html
11:17 < nmz787_i> totally read that as 'fap kit'
11:17 < nmz787_i> nickjohnson: so I saw there are some AD9851 boards on ebay
11:17 < nickjohnson> nmz787_i: Yup
11:17 < nmz787_i> and even some for the 9854
11:18 < nickjohnson> I hadn't seen the 9854 breakouts
11:18 < nmz787_i> nickjohnson: so, they're just less stable? (than say what you aim to build) or they simply lack the detection aspect (and schematics and layout)?
11:19 < nickjohnson> The AD9851 is quite antique but reasonably powerful
11:19 < nickjohnson> Well, they just do signal generation, and they don't have active frontends, so the power output is low, and the control over amplitude and offset is very limited
11:19 < nickjohnson> And no input stage either, yeah
11:19 < nickjohnson> I'm trying to build a more versatile instrument than just a breakout
11:20 < nickjohnson> I considered going with the AD9851, but it's only cheaper than the AD9838 if you go for dodgy second sourced PCBs from China :P
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11:21 < nmz787_i> nickjohnson: any idea of a sales pricepoint?
11:21 < nickjohnson> Looks like it's going to be $60USD retail
11:22 < nmz787_i> could that still do bode plots for the whole sig gen freq output range?
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11:23 < nickjohnson> hm
11:23 < nickjohnson> No, you'd need an ADC and/or some analog frontend stuff as well
11:24 < nickjohnson> (Eg, either a fast ADC, or peak and phase detectors and a slow ADC)
11:24 < nickjohnson> Assuming we're talking about the same breakouts
11:24 < nickjohnson> Depends on what you're trying to measure, too, you might need more current than the breakout can supply.
11:29 < nickjohnson> I'm happy to help if you're considering putting together your own board for higher speed frequency plots, though :)
11:29 < nickjohnson> You could reuse a good chunk of what I've designed
11:35 < kragen> nmz787_i: by coincidence I spent much of the morning trying to teach painters to make arcs using discrete approximations of partial differential equations
11:35 < kragen> well, artists.  one is a painter
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11:36 < nmz787_i> nickjohnson: cool, will talk more later about this
11:37 < nmz787_i> kragen: oh!
11:37 < nickjohnson> Righto :)
11:37 < nmz787_i> kragen: are you familiar with the DNA double helix?
11:38 < nmz787_i> while I wouldn't need a spiral as the solution, the double helix represents two lines/arcs that don't cros
11:38 < nmz787_i> cross
11:38 < chris_99> nmz787_i, found some seller in china that makes mixer microfluidic chips for £21
11:38 < nmz787_i> chris_99: for your problem you probably don't have to worry about quality of them too much, so if they work for your purpose and the price point is OK... seems fine
11:38 < kragen> nmz787_i: only as much as any random person on the street
11:39 < nmz787_i> quality in the sense that the channels may be rough or something
11:39 < chris_99> yeah i agree, nmz787_i :)
11:39 < chris_99> mmm
11:39 < kragen> but helices aren't arcs?
11:39 < nmz787_i> I thought they were, but in 3d
11:40 < nmz787_i> not the same pythagorean equation that get's integrated?
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11:40 < kragen> you can certainly represent helices in a variety of ways that have circles as a special case
11:40 < nmz787_i> (except that the points to calculate distance between would be P(x,y,z) not P(x,y)
11:41 < kragen> like the vector parametric formula [(a sin t) (a cos t) (bt)]
11:41 < nmz787_i> kragen: I don't actually want helices... if anything it would probably be a sum of sin waves (since that is how you could get 90 turns)
11:41 < kragen> which reduces to a circle if b = 0
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11:44 < nmz787_i> kragen: http://imgur.com/rBXGE3C
11:44 < nmz787_i> that would be the simplest example I can think of
11:45 < nmz787_i> you start with the boundary conditions (2 points on one side which need to connect to 2 points on the other side)
11:45 < nmz787_i> and find the  equations which satisfy equation1 never equals equation2
11:45 < nmz787_i> (meaning they never intersect)
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11:56 < kragen> nmz787_i: I am unfortunately completely mystified by this conversation and I suspect it may be a terminology problem
11:56 < kragen> the lines in that picture don't look like arcs, and they don't look differentiable, which means that making them out of partial differential equations is going to be tough
11:56 < kragen> they look like they are skew, which keeps them from intersecting
11:57 < kragen> but one of them has a bump in it, which maybe is intended to avoid the other, except that it wouldn't have intersected the other anyway because they're skew
11:57 < kragen> and I have no idea what any of this has to do with double helices or sums of sine waves
11:57 < nmz787_i> skew is accidental thanks to MS Paint
11:58 < nmz787_i> wouldn't the derivative of the black like just be 0?
11:58 < kragen> furthermore I don't know what a turn is.  are we talking about rotations of an approximate helix here?  Like turns of winding on a transformer?
11:58 < kragen> and what do sums of sine waves have to do with anything?
11:58 < nmz787_i> and that red line could be a sum of sin functions
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11:59 < nmz787_i> (i.e. any square wave)
11:59 < nmz787_i> and yes this is only in 2d
11:59 < nmz787_i> I am not good enough with 3d MS Paint skillz
12:00 < kragen> whether the derivative of the function represented by the black line would be 0 or not depends on the relationship between the function and the line.  are we talking parametric, PDE, or explicit?
12:01 < kragen> I can't think of any interpretation where the answer is "yes it would be 0" but maybe there is one
12:01 < nmz787_i> umm
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12:02 < nmz787_i> kragen: have you ever done plumbing or made a circuit board ?
12:02 < kragen> I guess if your coordinate system has the X-axis parallel to the black line, which you drew as diagonal, and you're representing it with a function whose value is a 2-vector that gives you the Y and Z coordinates?
12:03 < kragen> sure
12:04 < nmz787_i> so essentially the starting two points would be the hot and cold sink faucets, and the other end of the lines I have drawn would be their source connections, say the pipes that come up through the floor in the kitchen
12:04 < nmz787_i> and for some reason the guy who built the house had the hot and cold pipes oriented the wrong way
12:04 < kragen> you want to do routing?  But with 90 turns?
12:04 < nmz787_i> such that your tubing had to cross over to connect up right
12:05 < nmz787_i> yeah, so this would be instead of free 3d space, layers routable area
12:05 < nmz787_i> layers of routable area
12:05 < nmz787_i> so better analogy would be plumbing in the floor below a bathroom/kitchen
12:06 < nmz787_i> where all of a sudden you need some pipes to go under or over something (a pipe, a beam that you can't drill through, etc)
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12:07 < nmz787_i> so my idea is define the start and end points for each equation (line), then set the solution constraint such that the individual equation points (any of their x,y,z points) can never equal the points of another equation
12:08 < nmz787_i> 90 degrees just because that is what the hardware store commonly sells (and the only drill angle a circuit board can have)
12:10 < FAMAS> what does the NRA at the channel topic stand for?
12:13 < nmz787_i> National Rifle Association
12:13 < nmz787_i> We love our Gene Guns too much
12:13 < nmz787_i> kragen: idk if this is more clear http://imgur.com/WZ2ZbaQ
12:14 < Qfwfq> They stand for sitting.
12:16 < FAMAS> Qfwfq: ???
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12:23 < nmz787_i> hmm http://blog.wolframalpha.com/2012/04/04/find-arc-length-calculations-for-calculus-with-wolframalpha/
12:23 < nmz787_i> "What about curves in three or more dimensions? One common exercise in a standard calculus course is to find the arc length of a helix. This could be the length of wire needed to form a spring or the amount of tape needed to wrap a cylinder without leaving any gaps. A helix can be expressed as a parametric curve in which the x and y coordinates define a circle, while the z coordinate increases linearly."
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12:52 < kanzure> "We are pleased to announce that the exclusive WuXi EXPLORER Compound Library has shipped to the first BTNB "early access" clients in the US and is now available for wider distribution.  Through this unique collaborative between Wuxi and BTNB, researchers can now access a large, novel and diverse library of screening-ready compounds at a cost-effective price. For pricing information please email us at info@btandb.com with the subject line ...
12:52 < kanzure> ... CHEMICAL COMPOUNDS"
12:52 < kanzure> "BTNB sponsor Assay Depot now offers a free research concierge service to BTNB tenants."
12:53 < kanzure> (biotechnbeyond == BTNB apparently)
13:43 < kanzure> http://news.sciencemag.org/funding/2014/11/gates-foundation-require-immediate-free-access-journal-articles
13:43 < kanzure> "The Gates Foundation spends about $900 million a year on its global health programs, mostly on research. That results in roughly 1400 research papers a year, 30% of which now appear in open-access journals, according to foundation communications officer Amy Enright."
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13:51 < nmz787_i> paperbot: http://scitation.aip.org/docserver/fulltext/aip/journal/jap/20/7/1.1698511.pdf?expires=1416866810&id=id&accname=2109439&checksum=985028A38427D3217CEF4D1BAA4F3FF2
13:52 < nmz787_i> paperbot: http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/jap/20/7/10.1063/1.1698511
13:52 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1063%2F1.1698511
13:53 < nmz787_i> paperbot: http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/jap/15/9/10.1063/1.1707491
13:53 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1063%2F1.1707491
13:54 < nmz787_i> .title
13:54 < kanzure> wont work
13:54 < yoleaux> nmz787_i: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page.
13:54 < nmz787_i> http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/70754/JAPIAU-15-10-712-1.pdf?sequence=2
13:54 < nmz787_i> paperbot: http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/70754/JAPIAU-15-10-712-1.pdf?sequence=2
13:55 < kanzure> ...
13:55 < nmz787_i> shouldn't it copy papers that are available?
13:55 < kanzure> yep
13:55 < kanzure> but that's been broken for a while now
13:55 < kanzure> don't know why
13:55 < kanzure> and nobody fixes things
13:56 < nmz787_i> I think I might as well start my own bot that just tries to download a given URL if 'pdf' in url.lower()
13:57 < nmz787_i> something I can debug without having to commit to a version control system
13:57 < kanzure> paperbot2 can be debugged without committing to a version control system
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13:57 < kanzure> paperbot1 too
13:57 < kanzure> "if 'pdf' in url.lower()" will miss almost every possible case
13:57 < kanzure> you should just use paperbot2
13:58 < nmz787_i> it won't fail if the pdf is available without creds
14:00 < kanzure> i didn't say fail i said miss
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14:15 < nmz787_i> miss? how would it miss it? if I say getPdf www.url.com/somefilename.pdf  how will it miss this?  or how would it miss this ?  http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/70754/JAPIAU-15-10-712-1.pdf?sequence=2
14:16 < kanzure> "will miss almost every possible case"
14:16 < kanzure> "almost every" does not mean "will miss every case"
14:16 < nmz787_i> well give an example of one that fails... all my cases thus far wouldn't, so that is not 'almost every'... it would be 'almost none'
14:18 < kanzure> any url that does not have the word pdf in it that returns a pdf
14:18 < nmz787_i> ok so then MIMETYPE
14:18 < kanzure> grep "paperbot: http" hplusroadmap.log
14:20 < nmz787_i> logbot fail
14:21 < kanzure> hm?
14:23 < kragen> oh, 90-degree turns
14:23 < kragen> not 90 turns of a helix
14:24 < nmz787_i> yes
14:24 < nmz787_i> i am still fleshing this idea out
14:25 < kragen> wrt "arc length": you can calculate the arc length along an arbitrary curve, but that doesn't mean that the curve is an arc in the usual sense of "arc", which is an arc of a circle.  confusing terminology.
14:25 < nmz787_i> ah
14:26 < nmz787_i> i meant curvy line
14:26 < kragen> that clears up much of my confusion :)
14:26 < nmz787_i> I'm gonna ask my calc prof tonight
14:27 < kragen> calculating arc length in the usual way along parametric curves could run into problems if the velocity isn't differentiable
14:28 < kragen> but if it's piecewise differentiable you can add up the arc lengths of the pieces
14:28 < nmz787_i> hm, I was thinking piecewise might be harder to express as a PDE
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14:28 < kragen> yes
14:28 < kragen> it certainly is
14:29 < nmz787_i> since my idea is to set my start and end locations, then throw that into a PDE solver
14:29 < nmz787_i> basically
14:29 < nmz787_i> idk if that is correct terminology or feasible
14:29 < nmz787_i> but it seems like it could be
14:30 < kragen> your velocity could be differentiable
14:30 < kragen> I mean you could slow down as you get to a 90-degree bend, reaching zero velocity at that point, and then accelerate from there
14:31 < nmz787_i> they wouldn't have to be perfect 90 degree bends, but that would be how they would be seen from a manufacturing standpoint
14:31 < kragen> I don't remember if that results in problems with the usual arc-length-calculation approach for PDEs
14:32 < kragen> one thing about 90-degree bends is that they mean you're probably going to have large flat plateaus in your solution space
14:32 < kragen> where the distance is the same regardless of where you make the bend
14:33 < kragen> that kind of thing can cause difficulty for things that are looking for an actual minimum-cost solution sometimes
14:42 < nmz787_i> hmm, I don't really care about minimizing distance, just that lines don't intersect
14:44 < kragen> presumably you want them to stay some minimum distance away from each other
14:48 < TMA> nmz787_i: are the starting points coplanar or arbitrarily positioned?
14:50 < nmz787_i> TMA: a simple example would have them coplanar to begin, but in more complex foms they could be elsewhere
14:50 < TMA> if they are coplanar, for each pair you can just make a |____| connecting path selecting a unique depth of the vertical parts
14:52 < nmz787_i> this isn't a horrible 3D example http://www.pcb-investigator.com/sites/default/files/blog/images/bd_5.jpg
14:52 < nmz787_i> it's pretty noisy though
14:53 < TMA> oh, it is a PCB routing problem
14:55 < TMA> if it weren't: no need for coplanarity, though: if they are not coplanar find some plane such that parallel projection of them to that plane projects no two on the same point on the plane. then use the previous method.
14:57 < nmz787_i> TMA: not neccesarily PCB routing, could be routing pipes in your house/skyscraper... or fluidic lines on a microfluidic lab-on-a-chip
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15:01 < TMA> nmz787_i: that seems more like a graph problem [look for maximum planar subgraph and start from there] papers such as http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.47.207
15:03 < nmz787_i> TMA: but wouldn't the solution be straight lines? which is not manufacturable for something like a PCB
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15:03 < nmz787_i> (in the sense of changing Z)
15:04 < nmz787_i> (Which needs to happen at 90 degree angles to the planes)
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15:07 < nmz787_i> heh, typo in that paper you just sent, right in the abstract
15:07 < TMA> nmz787_i: you will get the subgraph that is planar -- you can route that subgraph any way you like. no need to use straight lines; the edges that would be left behind can be moved to the second layer (with the same process); the vertical connectors would be only inbetween the layers
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15:09 < TMA> nmz787_i: where?
15:10 < nmz787_i> the webpage says maxumum
15:10 < nmz787_i> but the abstract in the PDF has it maximum... so OCR error maybe?
15:10 < heath> "hi Heath? we looked at your resume, we have an vp of engineering position for you." ~"we're a startup doing something others have done, we require you to be in ohio, but we'll give you 3 - 5% equity"
15:11 < heath> s/an/a
15:11 < heath> that was the shortest call all day
15:17 < TMA> nmz787_i: blimey, I've missed that. It's midnight here in Europe, I should be sleeping already. good night; maybe the graph approach is not the best one. maybe you'd need to come with some novel combination of approaches. I think that it might help to look at it from the angle of graph theory though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_number_%28graph_theory%29 or some such
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15:28 < heath> http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2014/Nov/74
15:28 < heath> "At this point, my best advice would be for users to unset LESSOPEN and
15:28 < heath> LESSCLOSE if set by their distros.
15:28 < heath> "
15:30 < heath> .title http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20050175884.pdf
15:30 < yoleaux> heath: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page.
15:30 < heath> "Foundations of Tensor Analysis for Students of
15:30 < heath> Physics and Engineering With an Introduction
15:30 < heath> to the Theory of Relativity"
15:35 < fenn> sounds more like a textbook than a technical report
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16:50 < nmz787_i> is there a room for bitching about bad software/API? or just bitching in general?
16:52 < fenn> ##masochism
16:53 < fenn> (who would want to listen to constant bitching)
17:07 < nmz787_i> that seems like it would be relatively undirected
17:08 < nmz787_i> i'm thinking something more like ##bitchaboutsoftware
17:08 < nmz787_i> if that existed
17:08 < nmz787_i> and it seems ##masochism is empty
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17:12 < fenn> i lied
17:12 < fenn> try ##gullible instead
17:13 < fenn> you could start a blog and accept submissions; i bet it'd be popular. misery loves company
17:13 < kanzure> tumblr?
17:14 < kanzure> twitter
17:17 < fenn> twitter isn't a blog
17:17 < fenn> also twitter has enough bitching already; there's be too much competition
17:18 < nmz787_i> i wouldn't want other people's crap on my blog
17:19 < fenn> i'm intolerant of your intolerance
17:20 < fenn> i think my brain is overheating from all this cryptography theory being rammed into it
17:21 < fenn> sorry for any weird offense
17:22 < nmz787_i> i just am sad that there don't seem to be good examples or docs for shapely
17:22 < nmz787_i> it has been annoying me all day :/
17:23 < nmz787_i> their docs seem to make lots of assumptions that users want it for GIS
17:24 < fenn> ALERT a user is using software for an unintended purpose!
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17:26 < nmz787_i> no, it only uses GIS examples
17:26 < nmz787_i> 'Manipulation and analysis of geometric objects in the Cartesian plane.'
17:26 < nmz787_i> 'Shapely is a BSD-licensed Python package for manipulation and analysis of planar geometric objects. It is based on the widely deployed GEOS (the engine of PostGIS) and JTS (from which GEOS is ported) libraries. Shapely is not concerned with data formats or coordinate systems, but can be readily integrated with packages that are."
17:27 < fenn> why aren't you just using an already-existing pcb routing algorithm?
17:28 < nmz787_i> this isn't for pcb routing
17:28 < nmz787_i> it's for packing shapes onto a drawing
17:31 < fenn> nesting?
17:32 < nmz787_i> not sure what you are referring to
17:32  * nmz787_i heads to calculus class
17:33 < fenn> nesting is for like, cutting cookies out of a sheet of cookie dough
17:33 < fenn> enjoy
17:33 < nmz787_i> ah, no, adding stuff to a blank drawing canvas
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17:37 < jrayhawk> #yospos or #shsc, maybe
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17:59 < jrayhawk> She said, "You know what they say the modern version of Pascal's Wager is? Sucking up to as many Transhumanists as possible, just in case one of them turns into God."
17:59 < jrayhawk> have i mentioned lately that you're all lovely people
18:00 < fenn> i will torture your simulation for eternity
18:01 < jrayhawk> a most judicious choice, sire
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18:20 < fenn> i'm on the turmeric aspirin chocolate ham stack, bro
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18:29 < heath> nmz787: ##defocus
18:32 < jrayhawk> i like that stack description
18:33 < jrayhawk> i should steal that
18:33 < jrayhawk> well, other than the aspirin
18:33 < fenn> i need an "O" so i can say "TACHO"
18:33 < jrayhawk> olive?
18:33 < fenn> yuck
18:33 < fenn> ...oseltamvir?
18:34 < jrayhawk> dangerously close to THAC0
18:34 < jrayhawk> oleate?
18:34 < fenn> hmm i hadn't considered 0
18:36 < jrayhawk> omega-3?
18:36 < fenn> duh
18:36 < fenn> so much for my stack
18:57 -!- augur_ is now known as augur
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20:12 < maaku> fenn: sucks to my simulation!
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20:38 < kanzure> hmm
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21:29 < bbrittain> anyone else watching ferguson live streams?
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21:30 < kanzure> no
21:30 < kanzure> wrong channel yo
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21:51 < kanzure> paperbot should be renamed to papertumor
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22:21 < bbrittain> pshaw, you people should care
22:21 < bbrittain> but yes, wrong channel
22:22 < FAMAS> bbrittain: no need
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22:45 < Lemminkainen> bbrittain what are people supposed to care about now?
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--- Log closed Tue Nov 25 00:00:01 2014