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01:17 < nsh> recommended: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04sttd7
01:17 < nsh> (can get from iplayer later)
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02:43 < nsh> .t http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25674738
02:43 < yoleaux> nsh: Sorry, I don't know a timezone by that name.
02:43 < nsh> .title
02:43 < yoleaux> BBC News - Battery advance could boost renewable energy take-up
02:43 < nsh> .wik Quinones
02:43 < yoleaux> "A quinone is a class of organic compounds that are formally "derived from aromatic compounds [such as benzene or naphthalene] by conversion of an even number of –CH= groups into –C(=O)– groups with any necessary rearrangement of double bonds", resulting in "a fully conjugated cyclic dione structure". The class includes some heterocyclic compounds." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinones
02:43 < nsh> .wik Flow battery
02:43 < yoleaux> "A flow battery , or redox flow battery (after reduction–oxidation), is a type of rechargeable battery where rechargeability is provided by two chemical components dissolved in liquids contained within the system and separated by a membrane.Ion exchange (providing flow of electrical current) occurs through the membrane while both liquids …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery
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05:16 < kanzure> beep
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05:49 < kanzure> http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2014/11/zero-knowledge-proofs-illustrated-primer.html
05:51 < kanzure> https://grey.colorado.edu/emergent/index.php/Comparison_of_Neural_Network_Simulators
05:52 < kanzure> cc archels
05:53 < kanzure> svn checkout --username anonymous --password emergent https://grey.colorado.edu/svn/emergent/emergent/trunk emergent-trunk
05:54 < kanzure> https://grey.colorado.edu/emergent/index.php/Screenshots
05:56 < archels> neat, considerable updates since I last cached it
06:00 < kanzure> archels: also http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/
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07:46 < faceface_> any decent ebay type software?
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07:47 < kanzure> not really
07:55 < faceface> yeah...
07:56 < faceface> could be a nice 'module' for something like drupal
07:57 < faceface> Reported installs: 58 sites currently report using this module
07:57 < faceface> https://www.drupal.org/project/auction
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08:04 < kanzure> in general i highly recommend not using drupal
08:19 < faceface> indeed
08:19 < faceface> it's a horrible thing
08:19 < faceface> but the modules are a deep resource
08:20 < faceface> and for a muppet like me, it can be superficially convenient
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09:42 < nmz787_i> .title http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/Ethical_Issues_Regarding_Using_Invertebrates_in_Education
09:42 < yoleaux> Ethical Issues Regarding the Use of Invertebrates in Education - Backyard Brains
09:44 < kanzure> "Criticism: “You are objectifying the cockroach.""
09:44 < kanzure> "Criticism: This is pseudoscience. Electricity doesn't exist."
09:49 < nmz787_i> heh, I didn't see that last one
09:54 < kanzure> "Criticism: You can't prove virtual photons exist. There is only one electron and you are tormenting it."
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10:31 < chris_99> Anyone played around with lasers much
10:31 < chris_99> i'm just looking to get a beam splitter
10:31 < chris_99> to make a laser mic
10:31 < kanzure> chris_99: http://dmundoptics.com/
10:32 < kanzure> chris_99: http://edmundoptics.com/
10:32 < kanzure> or http://thorlabs.com/
10:32 < chris_99> merci, i was just looking @ http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Polarization-Beam-Splitter-Broadband-transparent-450nm-660nm/846524754.html
10:32 < kanzure> ask nmz787_i
10:33 < chris_99> aha will do when he's about, cheers
10:35 < chris_99> ah the edmund ones are like $180 alas
10:36 < nmz787_i> simon field sells a kit I believe, or if not, there are cheap kits out there for that
10:36 < chris_99> oh i presume i'd want a non-polarizing one, or does that not make a diff. if i'm using a laser?
10:37 < nmz787_i> a cheap (relative to optics prices) beam splitter is either a prism or a half-silvered mirror
10:37 < nmz787_i> err
10:37 < nmz787_i> maybe prism is not the right word
10:37 < chris_99> two prisms glued apparenlty
10:37 < chris_99> ?
10:38 < nmz787_i> http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/light/light.html#laser_communicator
10:38 < nmz787_i> yeah I think two prisms will do it too
10:39 < chris_99> yeah i want to do it with a beam splitter though, as then it'll catch the reflection at 0deg
10:39 < nmz787_i> I am not sure the difference in quality, but their effect on the beam (mirror vs dual-prism) will likely be different... though you probably don't care
10:40 < chris_99> mmm as long as it works heh
10:40 < nmz787_i> it would probably just mess with the shape a bit
10:40 < nmz787_i> or wavefront
10:40 < nmz787_i> but I don't think that will matter for audio
10:40 < nmz787_i> fiber optic splitters are just two pieces of fiber optic next to each other
10:41 < chris_99> you think that aliexpress one looks ok?
10:41 < nmz787_i> which would also likely be fine for you, though you'd probably need some lenses to pipe the laser into and out of the fiber
10:41 < nmz787_i> hmm, I am not sure about the polarization part
10:41 < chris_99> yeah
10:41 < chris_99> me too
10:42 < nmz787_i> ebay seems to have cheaper options
10:43 < nmz787_i> e.g. http://www.ebay.com/itm/ColorMaker-Glass-Cube-Prism-Cross-Dichroic-RGB-Combiner-Splitter-7-8-Cube/251627619901?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27538%26meid%3D04715074cca84306b0cb2869991b6210%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D11353%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D281512318721&rt=nc
10:43 < nmz787_i> or http://www.ebay.com/itm/Eye-of-Horus-Beam-Splitter-for-Khet-2-0-Laser-Game-/191040434353?pt=Games_US&hash=item2c7ae5b0b1
10:43 < chris_99> hmm doesn't that look like its composed of 4
10:43 < chris_99> prisms
10:43 < nmz787_i> or http://www.ebay.com/itm/50R-50T-Plate-Beamsplitter-32x32x1-1mm-1-Lot-of-5x/221619661926?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27538%26meid%3D04715074cca84306b0cb2869991b6210%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D11353%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D281512318721&rt=nc
10:43 < nmz787_i> 5 for $25
10:45 < nmz787_i> aliexpress version isn't much better http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Optical-Beamsplitter-Plate-Half-Reflecting-Mirror/1356879436.html
10:45 < chris_99> on the UK ebay theres none of those cheap ones :(
10:46 < nmz787_i> huh, how about amazon UK?
10:46 < nmz787_i> some targeted ad just sent me to an amazon search with keywords: Beam Splitter Cube
10:47 < nmz787_i> chris_99: is shipping much from US to UK for something like that, seems like it would be a small packet
10:47 < chris_99> yeah i could definitely do that
10:47 < chris_99> just found http://www.amazon.co.uk/Color-Combining-Dichroic-Splitter-Glass/dp/B00KK9HTIW/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1417459604&sr=8-15&keywords=beam+splitter
10:47 < nmz787_i> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Color-Combining-Dichroic-Splitter-Glass/dp/B00KK9HTIW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417459648&sr=8-1&keywords=Beam+Splitter+Cube
10:47 < chris_99> but doesn't it look like it's > 2 prisms
10:47 < nmz787_i> $6 pound or whatever
10:47 < chris_99> i'm not sure that'd work though because it's 4
10:48 < nmz787_i> hmm?
10:48 < chris_99> it's 4 prisms
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10:48 < chris_99> rather than 32
10:48 < chris_99> *2
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10:48 < nmz787_i> you'd just add some mirrors to the sides you didn't want to use
10:48 < nmz787_i> or some aluminum foil
10:48 < chris_99> oh you think with 4 it'd still reflect ok?
10:49 < chris_99> i'm thinking the other one would disrupt
10:49 < chris_99> the input signal
10:50 < nmz787_i> if it messed it up you could probably switch to black felt to absorb the beams you weren't using
10:50 < nmz787_i> i would search a little more for a cheaper 2-piece though first
10:51 < chris_99> mmm yeah ill keep looking
10:52 < nmz787_i> i see lots of results http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=beamsplitter+mirror&LH_PrefLoc=2&_arm=1&_armm=63&_ruu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3Dbeamsplitter%2Bmirror%26_arr%3D1
10:52 < nmz787_i> oh, wait, one is a US entry
10:53 < nmz787_i> weird the search list shows me different shipping cost than when I click the item
10:53 < chris_99> odd
10:54 < nmz787_i> you can get away with a CD or DVD jewel case (or the blank no-line disc that they put on top of the spindles)
10:55 < chris_99> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-lot-of-2x-50R-50T-Standard-Cube-Beamsplitter-10mm-/221622275891?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3399b78f33
10:55 < chris_99> £30 for 2
10:57 < nmz787_i> a TOSlink splitter might suffice for you, and you should be able to pick one up locally for about $5
10:57 < nmz787_i> so cheap and easy if it doesn't work
10:58 < chris_99> oh interesting
11:00 < nmz787_i> sorry I can't find a zoomed in version of this http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61j41m97TZL._SX522_.jpg
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11:00 < nmz787_i> but it's literally just two fibers on the backside, that are next to each other on the front/input
11:01 < chris_99> interesting
11:01 < chris_99> cool
11:02 < nmz787_i> but your beam divergence will likely be more than the half-millimeter or so that separate the two
11:02 < nmz787_i> so should be fine
11:02 < nmz787_i> may be fine*
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11:04 < chris_99> :)
11:04 < nmz787_i> the bigger problem would be if the divergence was enough that the watts/area is low, combined with the small fiber aperture, could lead to signal at the photodiode being too low
11:05 < nmz787_i> which is when you might need a lens to collect the return signal and focus it down better
11:05 < nmz787_i> so it depends primarily on your laser's initial divergence, and also the distance the beam needs to travel
11:06 < chris_99> yep that's true
11:13 < nmz787_i> and if you shoot onto a piece of glass (a window) unless the glass is pretty dirty, the beam is not going directly back to the splitter
11:14 < chris_99> true, so it'd need to be at a slight angle?
11:14 < nmz787_i> hard to say, I guess it would depend on the windo
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11:27 < nmz787_i> chris_99: did you ever do openCV on Android?
11:27 < nmz787_i> I managed to get it working for me over the weekend
11:27 < chris_99> i just did image processing in the end, not opencv
11:27 < kanzure> .title http://spectrum.ieee.org/geek-life/hands-on/diy-exoplanet-detector
11:27 < yoleaux> DIY Exoplanet Detector - IEEE Spectrum
11:27 < chris_99> ah cool
11:27 < nmz787_i> now I need to investigate GUI layout in Android a bit
11:27 < chris_99> cool, what are you making?
11:27 < kanzure> cc superkuh
11:28 < nmz787_i> chris_99: I've had a few ideas for a while, one would be a live/dead detector for a hemocytometer image (or any image of different colored blobs)
11:28 < chris_99> cool
11:28 < nmz787_i> another was the FIB/CNC related stuff I have been working on
11:29 < nmz787_i> but I realized that since I'm using a USB video capture device, I would need an Android driver for it, which I have no idea how loading kernel modules work in Android
11:29 < chris_99> ah hmm
11:29 < chris_99> me neither
11:29 < chris_99> i noticed the mass spectrometer i was looking at has come down to £850, when it hits £100 i'll buy it ;)
11:29 < nmz787_i> oh?
11:29 < nmz787_i> which is that?
11:29 < chris_99> sec
11:30 < chris_99> it might not even work though
11:30 < nmz787_i> that sounds ridiculously cheap
11:30 < nmz787_i> (does it come with pumps?)
11:30 < chris_99> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281506750396?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
11:30 < kanzure> title
11:30 < kanzure> .title
11:30 < yoleaux> Mass Spectrometer Waters Micromass Tof Spec 2E | eBay
11:32 < kanzure> podcast, nick bostrom, superintelligence (from today) http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2014/12/nick_bostrom_on.html
11:33 < kanzure> .title
11:33 < yoleaux> Nick Bostrom on Superintelligence | EconTalk | Library of Economics and Liberty
11:33 < nmz787_i> http://www.umich.edu/~techserv/massspec/tof.pdf
11:33 < kanzure> "reduce the risk"
11:33 < kanzure> you can't reduce the risk of something inherently deadly.... i can't believe these people are so dishonest.
11:33 < nmz787_i> hmm, if it was local I would be interested in it...
11:34 < heath> who's going to be receiving an opentrons?
11:34 < chris_99> do you think it's got everything
11:34 < kanzure> (they should explicitly say that they are talking about "reducing the number of people working on these projects and opportunities for them to engage in this work")
11:34 < heath> i couldn't afford it this go around, but it is on github, so it shouldn't be too difficiult to replicate
11:35 < kanzure> (and "reducing the likelihood of these projects to exist or happen at all, at least within the bounds that we can set, and we are totally not promising that we can reduce the riskyness of impossible-to-fix risky things")
11:37 < nmz787_i> chris_99: can't tell, it would help if the manuals are there... looks like folks on ebay selling them alone for as much price http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micromass-TOF-SPEC-2E-Mass-Spectrometer-Manuals-and-Booklets-/271136831153
11:37 < chris_99> ooh cheers
11:38 < chris_99> oh what a rip heh
11:38 < nmz787_i> likely stuff is missing, but it appears that the bulk of it may be there... hard to tell though with my relatively untrained eye
11:39 < chris_99> mmm
11:39 < nmz787_i> it says "This is a used machine - has been removed from a working environment as a working machine looks to be complete, see pictures."
11:39 < nmz787_i> "we have no manuals - these are available from the manufacturer or online." HAH
11:40 < nmz787_i> these manufacturers seem very unlikely to provide such manual
11:40 < nmz787_i> I think for fear of competitors reverse-engineering
11:40 < chris_99> heh
11:40 < chris_99> yeah
11:40 < nmz787_i> "lots of valuable power supplies, components etc - IF USED FOR SPARES - some of these HV power supplies etc sell on here for £500 + so it could be a valuable source of spares for those who work in this field."
11:40 < nmz787_i> the real kicker would be if it had the vacuum pumps with it
11:43 < chris_99> ah are they v. expensive
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11:45 < nmz787_i> yeah
11:46 < nmz787_i> at least $1000 used, if not like $3000
11:46 < nmz787_i> there may be chinese brands I don't know of
11:48 < chris_99> would that be a turbomolecular vac pump?
11:51 * bkero usually repurposes automotive vacuum pumps
11:51 < bkero> Wenkel engines require vacuum lines all over the place to operate, and the maintenance of the community is enough to actually have a competitive market for vacuum pumps.
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11:54 < kragen> .wik Wenkel engine
11:54 < yoleaux> "The Wankel engine is a type of internal combustion engine using an eccentric rotary design to convert pressure into rotating motion. Over the commonly used reciprocating piston designs, the Wankel engine delivers advantages of: simplicity, smoothness, compactness, high revolutions per minute, and a high power-to-weight ratio." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine
11:55 < chris_99> what does an engine use a vacuum pump for?
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11:58 < nmz787_i> most engines use vacuum though
11:59 < nmz787_i> chris_99: for powering things, for sensing things (using ambient pressure relative to manifold vacuum/pressure to determine mass air flow)
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12:02 < chris_99> aha
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12:09 < kanzure> i wish i would have found this years ago:
12:09 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Monkey%20to%20human%20comparative%20anatomy%20of%20the%20frontal%20lobe%20association%20tracts.pdf
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12:14 < kragen> chris_99: the reason the throttle is called that is that the actual throttle valve itself limits the airflow into the engine intake
12:15 < kragen> you might have thought that it controlled the fuel flow
12:15 < kragen> but actually what happens is that the fuel flow is regulated to correspond to the airflow, and you directly control the airflow
12:15 < chris_99> mm i had no idea it controlled air flow
12:16 < kragen> think of being throttled by an angry soldier
12:16 < kragen> he's limiting your airflow
12:16 < chris_99> heh
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12:52 < kanzure> "major differences were found for the arcuate fasciculus and the inferior fronto-occipital fasciculus, which may underlie unique human cognitive functions"
12:53 < kanzure> "inferior fronto-occipital fasciculus (IFOF)"
12:54 < kanzure> "Anatomic dissection of the inferior fronto-occipital fasciculus revisited in the lights of brain stimulation data" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010945209002512
12:54 < kanzure> "Here, in the lights of these new functional data, we dissected 14 post-mortem human hemispheres using the Klingler fiber dissection technique, to study the IFOF fibers and to identify their actual cortical terminations in the parietal, occipital and temporal lobes. We identified two different components of the IFOF: (i) a superficial and dorsal subcomponent, which connects the frontal lobe with the superior parietal lobe and the ...
12:54 < kanzure> ... posterior portion of the superior and middle occipital gyri, (ii) a deep and ventral subcomponent, which connects the frontal lobe with the posterior portion of the inferior occipital gyrus and the posterior temporo-basal area. Thus, our results are in line with the hypothesis of the functional role of the IFOF in the semantic system, by showing that it is mainly connected with two areas involved in semantics: the occipital ...
12:54 < kanzure> ... associative extrastriate cortex and the temporo-basal region. Further combined anatomical (dissection and Diffusion Tensor Imaging) and functional (intraoperative subcortical stimulation) studies are needed, to clarify the exact participation of each IFOF subcomponent in semantic processing."
12:56 < nmz787_i> kragen: except in the case of direct injection
12:56 < nmz787_i> where the 'throttle' is just connected to a sensor
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13:04 < kanzure> "Normal variation in fronto-occipital circuitry and cerebellar structure with an autism-associated polymorphism of CNTNAP2" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2941042/
13:04 < kanzure> "We compared volumetric differences in white and grey matter and fractional anisotropy values in control subjects characterised by genotype at rs7794745, a single nucleotide polymorphism in CNTNAP2. Homozygotes for the risk allele showed significant reductions in grey and white matter volume and fractional anisotropy in several regions that have already been implicated in ASD, including the cerebellum, fusiform gyrus, occipital and ...
13:04 < kanzure> ... frontal cortices. Male homozygotes for the risk alleles showed greater reductions in grey matter in the right frontal pole and in FA in the right rostral fronto-occipital fasciculus compared to their female counterparts who showed greater reductions in FA of the anterior thalamic radiation. Thus a risk allele for autism results in significant cerebral morphological variation, despite the absence of overt symptoms or behavioural ...
13:04 < kanzure> ... abnormalities. The results are consistent with accumulating evidence of CNTNAP2's function in neuronal development. The finding suggests the possibility that the heterogeneous manifestations of ASD can be aetiologically characterised into distinct subtypes through genetic-morphological analysis."
13:06 < kanzure> well, only slightly related
13:07 < kanzure> although a single allele causing significant variations in grey matter vlume is neat
13:07 < kanzure> *volume
13:09 < kragen> nmz787_i: I don't know much about direct injection engines but I know direct injection engines with throttle valves do exist
13:09 < kragen> I'm sure pure drive-by-wire ones also exist
13:10 < kragen> you seem to be saying that the second are vastly more common than the first. you could be right
13:10 < kragen> I've only worked on very old engines!
13:11 < kragen> (reading, it looks like you are right)
13:13 < nmz787_i> well more common since maybe 10 years ago
13:14 < nmz787_i> another thing to consider for non-direct-injection is that lower pressure will aide fuel atomization/vaporization to some degree, however minor that may be
--- Log closed Mon Dec 01 13:24:10 2014
--- Log opened Mon Dec 01 13:24:21 2014
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13:35 < chris_99> http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26644-hypnotising-patterns-created-in-electric-soap-films.html#.VHze6IWeeBs
13:35 < chris_99> isn't this electrowetting?
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14:07 < archels> ,--8<-
14:07 < archels> |No part of this manual may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form or by any means, electronic,
14:07 < archels> |mechanical, photocopying, microfilming, recording, or otherwise, without written permission from Soterix Medical Inc.
14:07 < archels> `-->8-
14:07 < archels> microfilming, lol
14:07 < archels> also what is this ungodly paste script doing to my pastes
14:08 < kragen> it is putting ASCII art of scissors around them
14:08 < kragen> microfilm still seems to me to be the most reasonable existing way to do long-time text archival
14:08 < kragen> I mean of course we could lose it all in a foom next week
14:09 < kragen> and of course we could have a more gradual smooth transition to a stable posthuman existence
14:10 < kragen> but it seems entirely plausible that we will continue to experience occasional civilizational collapses instead of either of those
14:10 < kragen> hard disks will not survive a civilizational collapse in a useful way
14:13 < kragen> microfilm is stable for millennia, is cheap to produce, can be read without advanced machinery, and is vastly denser than any other medium with those properties
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14:35 < nmz787_i> kragen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-Rosetta
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14:37 < kragen> nmz787_i: yeah, that's what inspired me to start thinking about this problem someten years or so ago
14:38 < kragen> the thing is that the cost is about US$0.025 per page, and you need a scanning electron microscope to read it
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14:41 < kragen> by contrast, you can print on PET film or acid-free paper with a regular laser printer at 600dpi at 16:1 reduction, which you can read with a magnifying glass, for about US$0.0004 per page
14:41 < kragen> about 64 times cheaper
14:41 < kragen> and it still lasts 1000 years with no trouble
14:43 < kragen> if you have a 1200dpi printer you get another factor of 4 boost
14:43 < kragen> I think I can get to 25 pages per sheet of PET film without needing even a magnifying glass by printing on both sides
14:44 < nmz787_i> kragen: you don't actually need an SEM if your feature size is sufficiently large
14:45 < nmz787_i> I've seen their demos using simple phase contrast microscopy
14:46 < kragen> yeah, you can make the features big enough to see with optical microscopy for another factor of 2 increase in price per page, IIRC
14:46 < kragen> what would be really good at getting the cost down would be casting
14:47 < kragen> I mean, if you want Lots Of Copies to Keep Stuff Safe
14:47 < archels> hmm, is feature size inversely correlated with projected archival time?
14:47 < kragen> no
14:47 < nmz787_i> FIB time is $375/hr, data density depends on FIB spot size, so you can probably calculate cost per data using an implant dose table
14:47 < kragen> there is a relationship but it is not a simple inverse
14:47 < nmz787_i> and yeah the outcome is a mold
14:48 < nmz787_i> which you can them stamp into hot plastic or injection mold onto
14:48 < archels> HD-Rosetta disadvantages include:
14:48 < archels> Size: HD-Rosetta can easily be lost.
14:48 < kragen> nmz787_i: I was using US$5000 per disc as my cost estimate
14:48 < archels> lol.
14:48 < nmz787_i> there is the electroforming process which would be on top of the FIB beam time
14:49 < nmz787_i> and also any design time that you'd need to spend talking to an engineer about feasibility of data density for what your retrieval method will be, etc.
14:50 < nmz787_i> kragen: while an initial disc may be $5k, it would be able to stamp many copies of itself, so total cost per item would be lower
14:50 < nmz787_i> I am not sure what the out-the-door cost generally is
14:51 < archels> http://thespiritscience.net/2014/02/13/data-storage-crystal-quartz-will-change-everything/
14:51 < kragen> yes, in theory you could make many copies of an HD-Rosetta disc in hot plastic
14:51 < kragen> I don't think you can actually do injection molding because you will destroy the delicate features you're trying to mold
14:51 < archels> looks like this just needs to be taken out of the lab--I'm sure that many similar projects exist around the globe
14:52 < nmz787_i> kragen: I know how they do it, the company is 5 mins from my house
14:52 < nmz787_i> and yeah they do have a small hand-pressed injection molder
14:52 < kragen> nmz787_i: awesome! I didn't know anyone was actually doing this
14:52 < kragen> what are their mold lifetimes like?
14:52 < archels> these can be distributed incredibly easily, to other planets of the solar system or shot into deep space
14:52 < kragen> presumably they're not molding in PET, right?
14:52 < nmz787_i> (though I will admit I can't remember if they used the injector for making replicas, or if that was for some other project they had)
14:52 < archels> carrying something like the entire of library genesis
14:53 < kragen> most plastics are not very stable
14:53 < archels> compared to microfilm, those are completely laughable
14:53 < archels> I don't see it as such a big problem that you need an advanced device to read them out
14:53 < nmz787_i> not sure what plastic, but after the fact they are coating in gold
14:53 < nmz787_i> after the impression*
14:54 < nmz787_i> so the mold itself is nickel and will last a long time
14:54 < kragen> so they're doing this to create many perlong-term stable copies
14:54 < nmz787_i> but the plastic impressions would be less hardy, sure
14:54 < kragen> not necessarily
14:54 < kragen> well
14:54 < kragen> nickel can survive a very long time indeed
14:54 < kragen> geological or cosmological timespans
14:55 < kragen> in a reducing environment
14:55 < archels> as can crystals ^
14:55 < archels> what's the smallest feature size that you can create with that FIB beam?
14:56 < kragen> *other crystals
14:56 < nmz787_i> archels: most stuff is some size crystal :P
14:56 < nmz787_i> a metal form would be crystalline too
14:56 < nmz787_i> how nice it was, that's a question
14:56 < kragen> archels: that blog post is continued in http://thespiritscience.net/2014/02/15/legend-crystal-skulls/
14:56 < archels> solid nickel is not something I would normally refer to as a crystal, but quite possibly I don't know what I'm talking about
14:56 < kragen> nickel is normally crystalline
14:56 < nmz787_i> it certainly has crystal grain boundaries/interfaces
14:57 < nmz787_i> "You’ve heard the tales. The legend of the Crystal Skull is the tale of our Ancient Ancestors using Crystal Technology to store memories, understandings, and even pure Consciousness itself, in a Pure Quartz Crystal Skull. Every thousand years, for the past 13 thousand years, there have been stories that a new Crystal Skull was created by the indigenous descendants of the Atlanteans."
14:57 < nmz787_i> I had not heard that tale.
14:57 < kragen> you can probably get it to be amorphous but I don't think anyone ever has
14:58 < nmz787_i> archels: smallest beam size is about 10nm
14:58 < kragen> I think glass is actually preferable if you're going for recording density
14:58 < kragen> yeah, I hadn't heard that tale either
14:58 < kragen> apparently someone prepared amorphous nickel for the first time in 1973
14:58 < archels> nmz787_i: alright, that's pretty good
14:59 < archels> still, it's fundamentally 2D
14:59 < archels> etching an optically transparent crystal can occur fully in 3D
14:59 < nmz787_i> until they etch the implanted area, then it becomes 3d
15:00 < nmz787_i> archels what do you mean by your last comment?
15:00 < nmz787_i> 'etching fully in 3D'?
15:01 < kragen> you can use laser glass fracture or the equivalent to record data at many depths
15:01 < nmz787_i> oh, I see, you mean encoding stuff in the middle, not just on the surface
15:02 < kanzure> what were those halide silver gel matrices with rhodopsin proteins
15:02 < kragen> yeah, that's what the earlier spiritscience article was talking about
15:02 < kanzure> they probably weren't halide silver
15:02 < kanzure> nevermind, glass is better
15:03 < kragen> so that process is already commercialized at macroscopic resolutions: http://www.bathsheba.com/crystal/
15:05 < kragen> process details at http://www.bathsheba.com/crystal/process/
15:05 < kragen> however those fractures are 100μm long
15:05 < kragen> "None of this is cutting edge: it's been mature as long as I've been using it, which is since 2002"
15:07 < kanzure> doesn't "cutting edge" mean "there is no more edge" not "immature"?
15:07 < kragen> 1cm³ at 200μm resolution is only 125 bits though
15:09 < nmz787_i> hmm, FIB and electron beams cause damage (i.e. fracturing)
15:09 < nmz787_i> or they can cause damage
15:10 < archels> .wa (1e-2/200e-6)**3
15:10 < yoleaux> ((1×10⁽⁻²⁾)/(200×10⁽⁻⁶⁾))³: 125000; Number name: 125 thousand; Number line: http://is.gd/Hvh0h9; Number length: 6 decimal digits
15:10 < nmz787_i> I don't know if there's an equivalent for two-photon (two-particle) though
15:11 < archels> so you'd need 8 million 1 cm³ cubes to store 1 TB at that resolution
15:11 < archels> smaller feature size scales with the third power now though
15:12 < kragen> uh, pardon my total lack of consciousness, apparently. thanks archels.
15:12 < kragen> still, that's the same as three sheets of paper at 1cm² at 600dpi
15:13 < archels> 1 micron bits -> 1 TB in one cube
15:13 < kragen> yeah
15:15 < archels> ah wait, you want to store binary data on paper by just printing dot/no dot?
15:53 < kanzure> "Transcranial magnetic stimulation over human secondary somatosensory cortex disrupts perception of pain intensity" surprise?
15:55 < fenn> mumble mumble two-photon or holographic recording medium
15:56 < fenn> it's always a couple years behind magnetic media, so we never see consumer products
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16:00 < kanzure> fenn: here are some hypnosis papers for you (i swear i wasn't looking for these... i'm just going through the monthly volumes) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/00109452/49/2
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16:20 < fenn> “Specifically, as the human moves her arm, the wireless reflections from her arm either constructively or destructively interfere with the direct signal from the Wi-Fi transmitter. This results in peaks and troughs in the amplitude of the received signals”
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16:20 < RedMEdic> Hey
16:20 < RedMEdic> Anyone online?
16:20 < fenn> nobody here but us transhumanists
16:21 < fenn> oh, i know who you are
16:22 < kragen> archels: whatever kind of data you store with a laser printer is reduced to binary data on paper
16:22 < kanzure> hmm wifi interface using human limbs sounds like the start to an interesting prank on someone
16:23 < kanzure> *interference
16:23 < kragen> I designed a 6×3½ pixel font that is moderately readable — 21 pixels per letter, on average
16:23 * nmz787_i just started thinking of a human antenna 'no little brother, you need to stand on your head or the internet cartoon won't stream fast enough'
16:23 < kragen> which is about what QR codes get, really
16:24 < kanzure> qr codes get terrible wifi reception, yeah
16:24 < fenn> "The algorithm they created in their research classifies gestures according to the size and timing of the peaks. The technique works at distances of “up to one [foot]” and claims a 91 per cent accuracy."
16:24 < kragen> oh hush
16:24 < fenn> 91 percent is not great but presumably it could learn and improve with time
16:24 < RedMEdic> Im a noob and I was wondering what the best textbook/sources on genetic engineering are
16:24 < kragen> how many gestures?
16:24 < fenn> i didnt read the paper
16:24 < kragen> archels: although QR codes are probably more resistant to failure
16:24 < kanzure> RedMEdic: sambrook's lab manual is pretty okay
16:25 < fenn> .title http://arxiv.org/abs/1411.5394
16:25 < yoleaux> [1411.5394] Wi-Fi Gesture Recognition on Existing Devices
16:25 < kragen> 91% accuracy on distinguishing two gestures is less impressive than if it's 16
16:25 < fenn> "four gestures" :(
16:25 < kragen> four
16:25 < fenn> i guess it's only using one dimension
16:25 < kragen> yeah
16:26 < fenn> 802.11n would have higher dimensionality
16:26 < kragen> my mom has higher dimensionality
16:26 < fenn> does she smoke DMT
16:26 < fenn> don't feel pressured to answer
16:26 < kragen> no, she makes it herself
16:26 < kragen> in her very own personal brain
16:26 < RedMEdic> kanzure: thanks Ill check it out
16:28 < kanzure> "Comparative analyses of evolutionary rates reveal different pathways to encephalization in bats, carnivorans, and primates"
16:29 < kanzure> google scholar has a link to http://lib.gen.in/2ebbdfdf98191987b762ac50181cd4b3.pdf for this paper but it 404s
16:29 < kanzure> i suspect that lib.gen.in is libgen
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16:30 < fenn> that book is pretty expensive
16:31 < fenn> $150 used $250 new
16:31 < kanzure> "Results demonstrate that a principal focus on interpreting relative brain size evolution as selection on neuronal capacity confounds the effects of body mass changes, thereby hiding important aspects that may contribute to explaining animal diversity."
16:31 < kanzure> did this really need a paper?
16:32 < kanzure> "However, comparative neurological studies demonstrate that the human brain does not contain any structures that are distinctly unique to humans. Rather, the brain has undergone expansion of pre-existing structures that have re-wired their connectivity (Mantini and Corbetta, 2013; Smaers and Soligo, 2013), leading to the creation of novel network architectures in the brain. Given this morphological conservatism, the distinctive features ...
16:32 < kanzure> ... of the human brain are likely to involve the elaboration of pre-existing functions to facilitate increased behavioral complexity."
16:32 < kanzure> ( from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4010745/ )
16:34 < fenn> maniatis was the bio lab manual/protocol cookbook i had
16:35 < fenn> it was pretty dry
16:36 < fenn> hehe "genetics for dummies"
16:38 < kanzure> hmm this paper argues that human cognition is particularly unique because learned tasks can be dumped into memory, allowing "executive function" to process other details not related to task execution
16:38 < kanzure> they should have called this the drooling moron hypothesis
16:39 < kanzure> a first order dismissal could be something like "monkeys have memory too, you know"
16:39 < ebowden> Where on earth was this paper published?
16:40 < kanzure> Front Neurosci. 2014; 8: 90.
16:41 < ebowden> Are there any published criticisms of it?
16:41 < kanzure> "Plausibly, then, the adoption of bipedalism in proto-humans posed a strong selective advantage for individuals with brains capable of using their full processing power to learn bipedalism, but that were also able to delegate the basic tasks of walking and running to “lower” neural centers, freeing up the higher segments for detecting unpredictable opportunities and challenges (be they related to predators, food, or social cues), and ...
16:41 < kanzure> ... rapidly responding to that information."
16:42 < ebowden> ...
16:42 < fenn> well do you see any other bipedal organisms walking around
16:42 < kanzure> meerkats?
16:43 < fenn> walking being the operative word
16:43 < ebowden> Birds?
16:43 < kanzure> they sort of hop
16:43 < fenn> birds is ok, and there's some interesting things about their brains
16:45 < fenn> seth robertson used some kind of balancing test as a cognitive metric
16:46 < kanzure> i don't remember being graded but i may have failed my eurythmy classes
16:48 < fenn> you probably failed gymnastics too
16:49 < kanzure> that school didn't have gymnastics
16:49 < kanzure> but we had hikes through the forest at least once a week
16:50 < fenn> i guess humans got big brains and ostriches didn't because we had an aquatic/fishy diet with lots of omega-3 fats
16:50 < kanzure> although it may have been in a circle and i just never noticed
16:50 < fenn> flamingos though..
16:50 < kanzure> "Despite their connectivity with each other, the cerebral cortex and cerebellum are organized into quite different motifs of internal connectivity (Ito, 2006). For example, the cerebral cortex is a thin, multi-layered sheet with massive inter-connectivity across layers and regions (George and Hawkins, 2009), whereas the cerebellum consists of a network of simple cellular motifs, robustly repeated across the entire structure (Ramnani, ...
16:50 < kanzure> ... 2006; D'Angelo and Casali, 2012). The structure of these motifs accords well with the notion that the cerebral cortex is primarily engaged early in unsupervised learning (when it is advantageous to respond flexibly to a novel stimulus) (Doya, 2000), yet decreases its activity over the course of learning, which may be due to increased neuronal efficiency (Ashby et al., 2007). In addition, it is also now clear that the cerebellum is ...
16:50 < kanzure> ... important for the execution of automatized behaviors (Lang and Bastian, 2002; Balsters and Ramnani, 2011)."
16:51 < kanzure> "Given the efficient neuronal architecture of the cerebellar cortex, we propose that the cerebellum plays a prominent role in the execution of learned behaviors, effectively liberating the more flexible architecture of the cortex to process novel behavioral challenges (Figure (Figure1).1). Importantly, this mechanism can be mapped onto a functional corticocerebellar unit of the brain (Figure (Figure1)1) which, depending on which ...
16:51 < kanzure> ... neural and cerebellar regions are involved in the learning process, can effectively allow learning and automatization of motor, as well as cognitive and affective behavioral patterns (Graybiel, 1997, 2008; Hertel and Brozovich, 2010)."
16:52 < fenn> my eyes!
16:52 < fenn> are they citing jef hawkins?
16:53 < kanzure> seems like it: George D., Hawkins J. (2009). Towards a mathematical theory of cortical micro-circuits. PLoS Comput. Biol. 5:e1000532 10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000532
16:54 < kanzure> so their argument is that "monkeys don't walk" is an explanation for the other differences between monkey and human brain function?
16:55 < fenn> er, but don't monkeys also have cerebella?
16:55 < kanzure> s/don't/can't (for some definition of can't that allows for monkeys to attempt to walk for a while)
16:56 < kanzure> right... so something like "their are minor parameter differences between human and monkey brains that allow for better 'automatizing' that accounts for the major differences in brain function"? meh
16:57 < fenn> i think this explains the difference much better: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of_neurons#Cerebral_cortex
16:57 < kanzure> if there is simply lower bandwidth for this 'automatizing' mechanism then it should turn out that monkeys just learn and 'automatize' dramatically more slowly such that learning anything becomes impractical
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16:58 < fenn> a minor genotype parameter difference results in a huge quantitative phenotype difference
16:58 < kanzure> if there is almost /no/ bandwidth for such 'automatizing' then i wouldn't know how to explain monkey brain similarities to human
16:58 < kanzure> yeah but then why wouldn't that genotype parameter have already been selected for in monkeys
16:58 < fenn> because monkeys live in trees and don't eat fish
16:59 < fenn> they can't afford it, essentially
16:59 < ebowden> Damn do humans have a lot of cerebral cortex.
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17:03 < fenn> why aren't hippopotamuses all super-geniuses?
17:03 < fenn> brain to body-mass ratio 1:2789
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17:05 < fenn> vs human 1:40
17:07 < ebowden> I wonder how many neurons they have in their cerebral cortexes.
17:07 < chris_99> heh, maybe they are super-geniuses, and they're too busy contemplating the meaning of life, the universe and everything, for us to notice
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17:07 < ebowden> LOL
17:07 < fenn> no they are just big angry mice
17:08 < fenn> "ungulates" whatever that is
17:08 < kanzure> "On a genetic level, we expect that changes in delegation ability should be mirrored by disproportionate alterations in both coding and non-coding genetic activity in the brain (Mattick and Mehler, 2008), particularly in the cortical, cerebellar and basal ganglia circuitry that is likely to be important for the delegation of behavior to automaticity (Figure (Figure1).1). Although studies on the genetic basis of human behavior are in ...
17:08 < kanzure> ... their infancy, early results on the neural distribution of non-coding regions in the genome support this general notion (Mattick and Mehler, 2008)."
17:10 < ebowden> Fenn, how many neurons do hippopotamus have in their cerebral cortexes?
17:12 < fenn> did you mean: hippocampus?
17:12 < fenn> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24474726
17:13 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1002%2Far.22875
17:13 < kanzure> .title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24474726
17:13 < yoleaux> The cerebral cortex of the pygmy hippopotamus, Hexaprotodon liberie... - PubMed - NCBI
17:13 < fenn> Hexaprotodon liberiensis
17:14 < fenn> nevermind
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17:14 < fenn> interesting "H. liberiensis shares one feature exclusively with cetaceans (the lack of layer IV across the entire cerebral cortex)"
17:15 < fenn> i didn't know this about whales
17:15 < kanzure> if it really is just number of monkey neurons then let's give them a particular allele
17:15 < chris_99> i bet a pygmy hippo would make a bad ass guard 'dog'
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17:18 < kanzure> you would need a moat
17:19 < fenn> ebowden: sorry dude, no access
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17:19 < kanzure> why is it more likely that it is number of neurons and not some particular cognitive control related circuits
17:20 < fenn> because we only know of biological circuits made from neurons
17:21 < fenn> genetic circuits don't scale well
17:21 < kanzure> also, surely someone has published a paper elaborating an idea like "the number of neurons in the human brain is directly responsile for human brain abilities"
17:21 < kanzure> huh?
17:21 < fenn> i would hope so
17:21 < kanzure> i mean why are you quicker to prescribe number of neurons to unique human abilities rather than neural circuits
17:22 < fenn> i have no idea what a neural circuit is actually
17:22 < fenn> is that a thing?
17:22 < kanzure> there are these loops in the brain between "regions" and "clusters"
17:22 < kanzure> visually distinguished by long-range projection neurons
17:23 < fenn> are "regions" connected by long range projections also?
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17:24 < kanzure> "regions" and "clusters" are probably the same thing :|
17:24 < kanzure> see page 3 figure 3 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Towards%20an%20executive%20without%20a%20homunculus:%20computational%20models%20of%20the%20prefrontal%20cortex%20basal%20ganglia%20system.pdf
17:26 < fenn> heh "go vs nogo" is a big simplistic
17:26 < kanzure> terrible name
17:26 < fenn> all the agony and ecstasy of experience
17:27 < fenn> um, so that diagram is "regions"?
17:27 < kanzure> hmm i should find a good generic overview of wtf neural circuits are
17:28 < fenn> because that diagram contains lots of different cell types
17:28 < kanzure> so.. "regions" usually refer to this pile of junk: http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/brain/brainps.jpg
17:29 < fenn> that "pile of junk" is bad because it slices up the cortex into parts but leaves other regions whole, as if they're equivalent
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17:30 < kanzure> to complicate things even further for you, people have done fMRI studies of humans blowing snot bubbles to identify "functional regions" implicated in different actions or behaviors:
17:30 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Functional%20specialization%20and%20flexibility%20in%20human%20association%20cortex%20-%202014.pdf
17:31 < fenn> so what you're saying is nobody can agree on what the term "regions" means
17:31 < kanzure> (see figures on page 6, 7, 9)
17:31 < kanzure> i think there is broad consensus that regions refers to the historical neuroanatomy names like you would find in grey's anatomy
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17:31 < kanzure> gray's anatomy
17:32 < fenn> that circos diagram is impossible to draw any conclusions from
17:33 < fenn> wait, "go/nogo" is a task?
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17:33 < kanzure> yeah it's not what you think heh
17:34 < kanzure> terrible name like i said
17:34 < fenn> why does it say D1 and D2 then
17:34 < kanzure> a better alternative to the last link is possibly http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/The%20evolution%20of%20distributed%20association%20networks%20in%20the%20human%20brain.pdf
17:34 < kanzure> d1/d2 is dopamine receptor naming
17:35 < fenn> yes i know that much, but, uh, this fMRI uses "Go/NoGo" as a cognitive task
17:35 < kanzure> in this last link, here is a definition of "macrocircuit": "Canonical circuit (canonical macrocircuit): a network of brain areas characterized by dense local connectivity between areas and a serial, hierarchical flow of information across areas. Such networks link incoming sensory information to the development of a motor response or action."
17:36 < fenn> i am suddenly reminded of the futility of ontologies in biology
17:36 < kanzure> right, they should get rid of ontologies about brain regions
17:37 < kanzure> oh they cite this thing which looks useful, "Imaging human connectomes at the macroscale"
17:37 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v10/n6/abs/nmeth.2482.html
17:37 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnmeth.2482
17:37 < fenn> it's probably just tensor diffusion imaging
17:37 < fenn> .title
17:37 < fenn> .title http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v10/n6/abs/nmeth.2482.html
17:37 < yoleaux> Imaging human connectomes at the macroscale : Nature Methods : Nature Publishing Group
17:37 < fenn> no yoleaux i want you to summarize the paper for me
17:37 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, that command (.title) took too long to process.
17:38 < kanzure> here: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Imaging%20human%20connectomes%20at%20the%20macroscale.pdf
17:38 < fenn> no kanzure i want you to summarize the paper for me
17:39 < kanzure> page 10 figure 3
17:39 < kanzure> hmm there's no list of circuits in this paper.
17:39 < fenn> you know i am going to have to sort all this crap
17:39 < kanzure> no we're still trying to find you a good definition of neural circuit
17:39 < kanzure> and then you can answer my question
17:40 < kanzure> so most of this can be thrown out once an adequate definition or diagram or something is found
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17:41 < fenn> looks pretty messy
17:42 < RedMEdic> http://higheredbcs.wiley.com/legacy/college/tortora/0470565101/hearthis_ill/pap13e_ch12_illustr_audio_mp3_am/simulations/figures/neural_circuits.jpg
17:42 < RedMEdic> like this?
17:42 < kanzure> "Direct evidence for neuronal connections in human brain tissue is very rare and difficult to obtain, so there is high value in any existing reports of neuroanatomical studies conducted in post-mortem human brain tissue."
17:42 < kanzure> http://mitraweb1.cshl.edu:8080/BrainArchitecture/pages/publications.faces
17:42 < kanzure> wtf?
17:42 < kanzure> RedMEdic: that's actually too low-level
17:42 < kanzure> that looks like a microcircuit
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17:44 < kanzure> "basal ganglia macrocircuits" http://garcia.rutgers.edu/Reprints.pdfs/Tepper_Chapter1.preprint.pdf
17:44 < kanzure> page 2 figure 1
17:44 < kanzure> although it's not an overview or general review of macrocircuits or neural circuits... hrm.
17:45 < fenn> kanzure: i think no matter what you're going to have to apply a fuzzy statistical definition that is unsatisfying
17:45 < fenn> like what is "a rich person" there's no real clear boundary
17:45 < kanzure> there are specific tracts of brain matter that require only visual inspection to identify (well, and knowledge of wtf everyone else called that particular projection)
17:48 < kanzure> okay here you go:
17:48 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Parallel%20organization%20of%20functionally%20segregated%20circuits%20linking%20basal%20ganglia%20and%20cortex.pdf
17:49 < fenn> i meant to steal this book or at least read it http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/networks-brain
17:50 < fenn> mostly because the author ran my robotics group in college
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17:50 < fenn> "faculty sponsor"
17:51 < kanzure> superkuh: do you have any good ways to explain macrocircuits in human brains?
17:51 < kanzure> archels: or you?
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17:51 < fenn> kanzure: this sounds like the sort of lie they tell students in order to have an easy to explain metaphor
17:52 < fenn> like s and p orbitals in chemistry
17:52 < kanzure> when they say circuits they don't really mean circuits
17:54 < RedMEdic> So what do they mean?
17:55 < kanzure> highly conserved pathways
17:55 < fenn> conserved across humans at least
17:55 < kanzure> turns out monkeys too
17:56 < kanzure> for example, auditory cortex stuff always needs to go somewhere
17:56 < fenn> ok can i delete these papers now
17:56 < kanzure> i have not seen any reports of redundant auditory cortexes that just eat data
17:56 < kanzure> yes
17:56 < kanzure> although i would still like some postulation regarding whether or not you still think number of neurons is a better explanation than macrocircuits
17:56 < fenn> a brain region that doesn't feed-back or feed-elsewhere would be useless
17:57 < kanzure> yes but it doesn't just feedforward into everything else
17:58 < kanzure> holy diagram batman http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3243081/bin/fnana-05-00065-g001.jpg
17:58 < kanzure> (this is from )
17:59 < kanzure> their visualization is.. interesting.
17:59 < kanzure> http://www.frontiersin.org/files/cognitiveconsilience/index.html
18:00 < RedMEdic> Is it true that there are more conections running from the bottom of the brain up than the other way?
18:02 < fenn> "the bottom"
18:03 < fenn> so "mammilary body" wasn't enough for you, pervert
18:03 < RedMEdic> R Complex is what I mean
18:05 < fenn> oh i thought you were only talking about in the cortex
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18:10 < fenn> "basketry and wilderness survival are nice, but what the scouts really need is a merit badge for hacking"
18:12 < chris_99> heh
18:12 < RedMEdic> Is whoever said that arguing that scouts need to learn computers because thats the only way they will ever get a job
18:12 < RedMEdic> or that they need to learn hacking to raise up a new generation of cyberwarriors to fight the evil chinese who hate our freedoms?
18:13 < chris_99> i rather like the story about the radioactive boy scout, he got his radioactive badge i think
18:13 < fenn> RedMEdic: the story you heard is probably about how there are more feedback pathways in the cortex's sensory processing areas
18:13 < fenn> i don't see why the number of connections to the basal ganglia is important
18:14 < RedMEdic> The guy was making the argument that because there were more connections running from the "lower" parts of the brain to the "higher" ones
18:14 < RedMEdic> that showed that people were more under the influence of their more base and emotional impulses
18:14 < kanzure> of course this author would think it's about bipedalism, he's a parkinson's researcher
18:14 < RedMEdic> than their higher more rational ones
18:14 < kanzure> "Impaired cognitive control in Parkinson’s disease patients with freezing of gait in response to cognitive load"
18:15 < RedMEdic> It sounded like bullshit, drawing that kind of conclusion based on that
18:16 < kanzure> what is the difference between an "emotional impulse" and any other kind of "impulse"?
18:17 < RedMEdic> Thats what was bugging me, I was just wondering if the science he based it on was even legit to begin with
18:18 < fenn> the other proposed scouting badges were "texting >100wpm, SEO, reality television show pitching, existential absurdism, feminism (in macaroni decorated posters), and sarcasm"
18:18 < fenn> i'm not sure what the point of the article was
18:19 < kanzure> *black sarcasm
18:19 < RedMEdic> Thats the Onion
18:19 < RedMEdic> please tell me thats the onion
18:19 < fenn> it's John Kelly's Washington, a shitpost column in the washington post
18:21 < RedMEdic> The Washington Post is making clickbait now
18:21 < RedMEdic> journalism is dead
18:21 < fenn> is it clickbait if it's in the printed edition
18:22 < RedMEdic> yes
18:22 < RedMEdic> because no one reads printed newspapers anymore
18:22 < fenn> i would have supported writing a column about how scouts need to learn computer skills because their entire fucking economy will be gone by the time they grow up
18:23 < fenn> but the writer sort of fell asleep and finished the article on the train i guess
18:23 < kanzure> "These studies also showed that the human brain is not exceptional in its cellular composition, as it was found to contain as many neuronal and non-neuronal cells as would be expected of a primate brain of its size. Additionally, the so-called overdeveloped human cerebral cortex holds only 19% of all brain neurons, a fraction that is similar to that found in other mammals. In what regards absolute numbers of neurons, however, the human ...
18:23 < kanzure> ... brain does have two advantages compared to other mammalian brains: compared to rodents, and probably to whales and elephants as well, it is built according to the very economical, space-saving scaling rules that apply to other primates; and, among economically built primate brains, it is the largest, hence containing the most neurons. These findings argue in favor of a view of cognitive abilities that is centered on absolute numbers ...
18:23 < kanzure> ... of neurons, rather than on body size or encephalization, and call for a re-examination of several concepts related to the exceptionality of the human brain."
18:23 < kanzure> (from )
18:24 < fenn> so birds and bees with equivalently sized brains would be super-duper-intelligent?
18:25 < RedMEdic> Reminds me of something I read awhile ago, that it was a couple thousand years after humans developed the brain size they do and we started seeing things like art and decorative jewelry ect
18:25 < RedMEdic> and a few thousand years after that for agriculture and civilization to start appearing
18:25 < RedMEdic> Whatever caused the massive jump in human intelligence it was definitely more than just brain size
18:25 < kanzure> fenn: i don't know what you mean. similarly sized in number of neurons? neuron sizes? neuron mass?
18:26 < kanzure> "brain size" is ambiguous
18:26 < fenn> "economically built"
18:26 < fenn> bees have only like 100,000 neurons but can solve puzzles, communicate, do math, learn english, etc
18:26 < fenn> ok they can read some words i think :P
18:27 < fenn> very economical. such intelligence. wow.
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18:27 < kanzure> er i believe it has been shown that even very tiny neural networks can do math
18:27 < kanzure> which is not very interesting
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18:28 < fenn> anyway birds and bees are smarter than you'd expect based on brain mass, probably because they have selection pressure against being too massive because they fly
18:30 < fenn> what is "economical" then, saving on brain mass? saving on energy use?
18:30 < kanzure> "space-saving"
18:32 < fenn> space is proportional to mass; all brains are mostly water and fat
18:32 < kanzure> "Orangutan fish eating, primate aquatic fauna eating, and their implications for the origins of ancestral hominin fish eating"
18:34 < fenn> i dont see any abstract
18:35 < kanzure> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=xNQF7ZGw
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18:36 < kanzure> "Orangutan and primate findings are generally consistent with Stewart's (2010) reconstruction of the origins of ancestral hominin fish eating, but suggest that it, and tool-assisted fish catching, were possible much earlier"
18:36 < kanzure> (from another abstract) "Despite great diversity across mammals in the number of cortical neurons and the cognitive functions they support, the fundamental process which populates the cerebral cortex with neurons changes only subtly from the smallest rodents to the largest primates. ... We gathered data on the growing and mature cortex to build a computational model of neurogenesis. The model recapitulates how dynamics, known to vary ...
18:36 < kanzure> ... across species and across the cortex, sculpt the basic landscape of the embryonic cortex. Features of the cortex long thought to be the result of special selection are revealed as the necessary product of a conserved mechanism."
18:36 < fenn> the paper http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Anne_Russon/publication/264053544_Orangutan_fish_eating_primate_aquatic_fauna_eating_and_their_implications_for_the_origins_of_ancestral_hominin_fish_eating/links/54118f140cf264cee28b3fcd
18:40 < chris_99> http://www.nature.com/news/nature-makes-all-articles-free-to-view-1.16460
18:41 < chris_99> alas not downloadable
18:42 < kanzure> "As a result, the volume of gray matter expressed as a percentage of total brain volume is about the same for all anthropoid primates."
18:43 < kanzure> "The relative white matter volume, on the other hand, increases with brain size, from 9% in pygmy marmosets (Cebuella pygmaea) to about 35% in humans, the highest value in primates (Hofman, 1989). "
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18:48 < kanzure> "Recent studies in primates have shown that the number of neurons underneath a unit area of cortical surface is not constant and varies linearly with neuronal density, a parameter that is neither related to cortical size nor to the total number of neurons (Herculano-Houzel et al., 2008; Wang et al., 2008; Herculano-Houzel, 2009). These studies indicate that the cortical column varies both in size and number of neurons, which is in ...
18:48 < kanzure> ... accordance with predictions based on computational models (Hofman, 1985b). Indeed, comparative morphological differences between cortical areas and species cast doubt on the notion of a universal cortical module or minicolumn (DeFelipe et al., 2002)."
18:48 < kanzure> (from )
18:54 < fenn> taking bets on how long until publishers try to switch all content to DRM-protected formats
18:54 < kanzure> "Comparative work suggests that the human prefrontal cortex differs from that of closely related primate species less in relative size than it does in organization. Specific reorganizational events in neural circuitry may have taken place either as a consequence of adjusting to increases in size or as adaptive responses to specific selection pressures. Living in complex environments has been recognized as a considerable factor in the ...
18:54 < kanzure> ... evolution of primate cognition. Normal frontal lobe development and function are also compromised in several neurological and psychiatric disorders. A phylogenetically recent reorganization of frontal cortical circuitry may have been critical to the emergence of human-specific executive and social-emotional functions, and developmental pathology in these same systems underlies many psychiatric and neurological disorders, including ...
18:54 < kanzure> ... autism and schizophrenia."
18:55 < kanzure> err.
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18:58 < kanzure> i forgot about the "woven sheets" study that also used diffusion tensor imaging http://people.psych.cornell.edu/~jec7/pcd%202012-13%20pubs/weedensci.pdf
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18:59 < fenn> they just brush off the 4:1 ratio of human cortical neurons to ape cortical neurons like it's no big deal
18:59 < kanzure> "We have found that the fiber pathways of the forebrain are organized as a highly curved 3D grid derived from the principal axes of development. This structure has a natural interpretation. By the Frobenius theorem, any three families of curves in 3D mutually cross in sheets if and only if they represent the gradients of three corresponding scalar functions (26, 27). Accordingly, we hypothesize that the pathways of the brain follow a ...
18:59 < kanzure> ... base-plan established by the three chemotactic gradients of early embryogenesis (30). Thus, the pathways of the mature brain presents an image of these three primordial gradients, plastically deformed by development."
19:01 < kanzure> yeah i guess. hrm.
19:01 < fenn> this is standard developmental biology
19:02 < fenn> the last quote
19:02 < kanzure> right
19:04 < kanzure> well yes, plans from embryogenesis impact future growth, sure, but i think the conservation of a 3d grid in "fiber pathways" is not a natural conclusion
19:04 < fenn> i probably got this from you http://fennetic.net/irc/hox_genes_as_turing_patterns_for_development_of_segments.jpg
19:04 < kanzure> nope i don't remember this one. i'm sure i have talked about hox genes with you, though.
19:05 < fenn> "the finger bones follow a base-plan established by chemotactic gradients of early embryogenesis"
19:06 < kanzure> "3d grid" yo
19:08 < fenn> but, frobenius!
19:08 < kanzure> i really don't see anyone championing number of neurons. weird.
19:09 < fenn> probably because it was associated with racist/eugenics stuff in the 19th century
19:09 < kanzure> maybe because there's some sort of bias against an attraction to large numbers because they are large ("science is more subtle than that!")
19:09 < fenn> .wik phrenology
19:09 < yoleaux> "Phrenology (from Greek: φρήν, phrēn, "mind"; and λόγος, logos, "knowledge") is a pseudoscience primarily focused on measurements of the human skull, based on the concept that the brain is the organ of the mind, and that certain brain areas have localized, specific functions or modules." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology
19:09 < kanzure> wait... what?
19:09 < kanzure> oh, skull
19:10 < kanzure> yes i remember this one
19:11 < kanzure> modifying a few monkey genes is an easy way to test this hypothesis of yours
19:12 < kanzure> i suppose there may be other genetic changes required for certain cell specializations to handle longer distances (increased myelination, for example) and other differences that come with larger neuron populations...
19:12 < kanzure> so increasing the number of monkey or gorilla neurons may not be a good experiment
19:14 < fenn> i don't know what genes control cortex size or skull size
19:14 < fenn> also, haven't you seen "planet of the apes"!!
19:16 < fenn> it would be a good experiment; it would tell you if number of neurons is the only difference or not
19:17 < fenn> i'd guess not fwiw
19:17 < fenn> something about glial cells
19:17 < kanzure> why would you guess not?
19:17 < kanzure> hmm okay
19:17 < kanzure> well, add in some glial cell genes maybe
19:17 < fenn> that mouse study with human glial cells
19:18 < fenn> apes are close enough that they probably have similar myelin
19:19 < fenn> anyway it would be unsatisfying because apes are so similar already it doesn't tell you much if you succeed
19:19 < fenn> but you'd have a talking ape or whatever
19:19 < fenn> or at least an ape that can do calculus
19:19 < kanzure> another option is to do phylogeny/evolution genetics stuff
19:20 < RedMEdic> Wait wait wait
19:20 < fenn> please elaborate
19:20 < RedMEdic> youre saying I can genetically engineer an ape to do calculus for me?
19:20 < fenn> RedMEdic: of course not, that would be slavery
19:20 < fenn> RedMEdic: use mathematica instead
19:20 < kanzure> fenn: well, we have their genomes
19:20 < fenn> or macsyma if you're a free software zealot
19:21 < kanzure> so we can just do brain + genome analysis things first
19:21 < kanzure> and then look at the set of different alleles
19:22 < fenn> yeah i would love to do that, but the liberals won't let us...
19:22 < RedMEdic> Thanks Obama
19:22 < fenn> not obama
19:22 < kanzure> what do you mean they wont let us do that?
19:22 < kanzure> ncbi has the gene data go download it or something
19:22 < fenn> um, scientists are afraid to talk about the relationship between genetics and intelligence, and funding for it has been weak because of this
19:22 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Genetic%20basis%20of%20human%20brain%20evolution.pdf
19:23 < kanzure> oh whatever, who cares about intelligence
19:23 < kanzure> i just want to see the differences
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19:25 < fenn> what would you look at exactly
19:25 < fenn> what phenotypic characteristics
19:26 < fenn> (since you can't use intelligence tests)
19:27 < fenn> there must be thousands of genes to sort through
19:28 < kanzure> iirc it's like <200 genes
19:28 < fenn> for what
19:28 < kanzure> that seem to be unique to human brain stuff
19:29 < kanzure> er, out of the human genome, i don't mean compared to non-human brains
19:29 < kanzure> "Diversity of microRNAs in human and chimpanzee brain" no that wasn't the paper... hrm. i feel like it was a venter paper for some reason.
19:30 < fenn> i mean there are thousands of genes that control brain development and function
19:30 < kanzure> here is a venter paper "3,400 new expressed sequence tags identify diversity of transcripts in human brain"
19:30 < kanzure> and "Chromosomal distribution of 320 genes from a brain cDNA library"
19:30 < fenn> unique to humans doesn't necessarily mean "what makes humans qualitatively different"
19:30 < kanzure> i know
19:31 < kanzure> you wanted to know what i would look at
19:31 < kanzure> those are the genes that i would look at
19:31 < fenn> ok
19:31 < kanzure> i would also factor out anything from KEBB about cell metabolism (even though cell metabolism is important)
19:31 < fenn> on the other side of the equation, what phenotypic characteristics would you correlate the gene alleles with?
19:32 < kanzure> certain brain genes (like microcephelin) already have known correlations with brain size (for example)
19:32 < fenn> meh
19:32 < fenn> that's a pathology
19:33 < kanzure> hmm someone did transcriptome sampling from a monkey brain "Transcriptional architecture of the primate neocortex"
19:33 < kanzure> oh look "Human-specific transcriptional networks in the brain"
19:34 < kanzure> http://www.einstein.yu.edu/uploadedFiles/departments/neurology/Divisions/Child_Neurology/Child_Neurology_References/Language/Geschsind%20D%20Human-specificathways%20in%20the%20brain%202012.pdf
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19:36 < fenn> it's too bad we killed off everything not-quite-human
19:38 < kanzure> "However, there are some remarkable differences between the gene coexpression connectivity tree and the species tree: the relative distance of human genes to chimpanzee and macaque genes is much larger in the connectivity tree (Figure 7D), indicating a faster evolution of gene connectivity, and hence gene regulation, in the human brain. Previously, we have found that connectivity is a more sensitive measure of evolutionary divergence ...
19:38 < kanzure> ... than gene expression (Miller et al., 2010; Oldham et al., 2006). Therefore, by using new technology and multiple primate species, we have shown a rapidly evolving mechanism for the coordination of gene expression patterns in the human brain."
19:42 < kanzure> well that sucks
19:42 < fenn> spaghettiball
19:42 < fenn> (figure 3)
19:43 < kanzure> seems likely that neuron count may not be sufficient
19:44 < fenn> i agree only because of the hard-coded human language syntax rules
19:44 < fenn> pointing at stuff to teach is another thing
19:45 < fenn> is music important though? i don't think so
19:45 < fenn> it's an apparently random sexually selected trait
19:46 < fenn> nevertheless apes don't have music
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19:48 < kanzure> uplifting a gorilla might be simpler than uplifting your laptop
19:49 < fenn> sure, a gorilla has many orders of magnitude more processing power
19:51 < fenn> also it has efficient fault-tolerant algorithms and a good controller-embodiment interface
19:51 < fenn> but what would be the point
19:52 < kanzure> knowing the differences would give insight into the missing ingredients into something approximating general intelligence
19:59 < kanzure> "In the days of prehistory, 50,000 BC, Savage was a caveman named Vandar Adg, leader of the Cro-Magnon Blood Tribe. He was bathed in the radiation of a mysterious meteorite, which gave him incredible intellect and immortality. According to Lex Luthor, there may be evidence to suggest that Savage was the first cannibal on record. Though the Calculator took this to be a joke, Luthor was apparently serious, and Savage has not shown much ...
19:59 < kanzure> ... regard for human life."
20:00 < kanzure> wait, wrong universe
20:00 < bbrittain> here to bitch about nature
20:01 < bbrittain> http://www.nature.com/news/nature-makes-all-articles-free-to-view-1.16460
20:01 < bbrittain> .title
20:01 < yoleaux> Nature makes all articles free to view : Nature News & Comment
20:01 < kanzure> not downloadable, next plz
20:01 < bbrittain> I hate them all
20:02 < kanzure> bbrittain: which genes and which alleles do you think would be necessary to make an ape brain do what a human brain does?
20:02 < bbrittain> holy shit. I have no clue
20:02 < kanzure> this seems like something phylogenetic genome and transcriptome sequencing should help with
20:02 < bbrittain> I don't really do human stuff... and brains are really complicated.
20:03 * bbrittain goes to the internets
20:04 < kanzure> also someone should do monkey brain embryogenesis transcriptomics stuff from different developmental stages and areas of brain matter
20:04 < kanzure> since clearly doing that in humans would be punishable by stoning or something
20:04 < bbrittain> "iirc it's like <200 genes"
20:04 < kanzure> anyway those results would help determine which things to be looking at in the human genome
20:05 < bbrittain> uhh.. let's just put those genes in an ape and see what happens
20:05 < bbrittain> why haven't we done that yet?
20:05 < kanzure> see http://www.einstein.yu.edu/uploadedFiles/departments/neurology/Divisions/Child_Neurology/Child_Neurology_References/Language/Geschsind%20D%20Human-specificathways%20in%20the%20brain%202012.pdf
20:06 < bbrittain> I mean, improving our intelligence is the ultimate dream... this should be super high funding level stuff
20:06 * bbrittain is looking at paper
20:08 < kanzure> my motivation is that i am not sure why monkeys don't have human cognitive abilities
20:08 < kanzure> and that if those reasons are known then they can maybe be translated into software things
20:09 < bbrittain> I'm very skeptical of that. (oh look! my catchphrase) just because we have genes and what proteins they generate...
20:09 < bbrittain> and then study all the interactions
20:09 < kanzure> well you would look at the generated neuroanatomy obviously
20:09 < bbrittain> we don't understand _why_
20:09 < bbrittain> and what sorta resolution to we get?
20:09 < bbrittain> does the connectome tell the whole story?
20:09 < kanzure> e.g. gorilla neuroanatomy when dumb vs ape neuroanatomy when discussing the finer points of cosmology with you
20:09 < bbrittain> brains man. brains.
20:09 < bbrittain> huh
20:10 < bbrittain> that could be super cool
20:10 < fenn> bbrittain: because mobs of englishmen would descend upon the labs with pitchforks, were such an abomination to be brought into this world
20:10 < fenn> re "let's just put those genes in an ape"
20:11 < bbrittain> I started writting something about just making knockouts in humans... then realized everyone would hate me
20:11 < fenn> there are plenty of existing knockout humans to study
20:11 < bbrittain> how much info do we get from them?
20:11 < fenn> you just aren't allowed to slice them up
20:11 < kanzure> i don't think knocking out individual human genes would be helpful
20:12 < fenn> well you can do MRI, post-mortem (sometimes)
20:12 < bbrittain> well, are you allowed to slice up a cosmology discussing ape?
20:12 < fenn> good question, i'd say, given the sad state of interpreting law, yes
20:12 < bbrittain> fuck laws. morally, I say no.
20:12 < kanzure> uh you would slice up the one that isn't talking cosmology with you
20:13 < kanzure> like pre-birth
20:13 < fenn> you said "are you allowed" not "should you"
20:13 < bbrittain> true
20:14 < bbrittain> I was talking with some animal liberation front people last sunday... they would kill me if they saw this convo
20:14 < fenn> probably not
20:14 < kanzure> uplifting animal intelligences is something they should totally go for
20:14 < bbrittain> I mean, they claim non-violence...
20:14 < fenn> they just dont see much difference between a smart ape and a dumb ape
20:15 < fenn> or an ape or a cow
20:16 < bbrittain> but at some point it becomes nonsensical
20:16 < kanzure> "it's just more computational power and more neurons" is a very appealing hypothesis because it involves doing almost no further work
20:16 < fenn> "it"
20:16 < kanzure> bbrittain: context is that some paper was arguing that monkeys are spending too much of their cognitive information processing abilities on not drowning in their own drool
20:16 < fenn> "iq"
20:17 < bbrittain> kanzure: that's one I'm still working on
20:17 < kanzure> hm?
20:17 < bbrittain> not drowning in my drool
20:17 < fenn> i thought it meant walking (cerebellar tasks)
20:18 < kanzure> yes "walking enabled some extra computational capacity that then got freed up to do other things"
20:18 < fenn> (is swallowing actually one of those?)
20:18 < bbrittain> that's awesome
20:18 < kanzure> s/enabled/required
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20:28 < kanzure> gorilla einstein is gonna approve so hard
20:33 < fenn> http://modifiedediting.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/168589233.jpg orangutan einstein says hrmph
20:45 < kanzure> gorilla einstein http://i.imgur.com/Cukoj5O.jpg
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20:50 < kanzure> "Nature's internal costs of publishing run at £20,000–30,000 (US$31,000–47,000) per paper, an extremely high charge to load onto authors or funders rather than spread over subscribers."
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20:58 < fenn> lol i'd love to see the cost breakdown for that
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21:01 < kanzure> "Part of his new idea to create a tiny device that sequences tumor cells (data processed in cloud) then synthesizes DNA for infection into a tiny bioreactor where e.coli reside, turning the DNA into a small number of viruses (may also work by injecting DNA back into the tumor cells), then purifying burst cells so that only viruses come out the other side... could benefit from the Lee Cronin work on 3D printed reactionware (that's his ...
21:01 < kanzure> ... term) that have the bioreactor preloaded and lined with useful chemicals"
21:01 < kanzure> what
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21:03 < fenn> e. coli is the wrong cloning vector for that mmkay
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21:21 < fenn> i wonder what creationists think when (if) they see things like this http://fennetic.net/irc/brain_evolution.png
21:22 < kanzure> have they figured out that they shouldn't expose you to the blinding radiation of television yet?
21:22 < fenn> no
21:23 < kanzure> do you need to be rescued?
21:23 < fenn> possibly
21:25 * fenn reads about hypnotism
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